Bus drivers strike

[southsider]

Was talking to the driver on the bus this morning and he said that the drivers had voted to go on strike by over 90%. The main problem is, he said, constant bullying and intimidation by management. Means a 3 mile walk home from work each day but they have my support.

[danhibees1875]

Begins on August 2nd if there's no resolution.

I'm not sure what's been offered (Lothian buses claim a substantial pay raise and benefits) Vs what's demanded. Your info makes it sound like it's not driven by money though, so might not be an easy issue to resolve if that's actually the case.

They'd just sorted out their contactless payment as well (for some tickets).

[Mon Dieu4]

Having spoken to a few drivers and family members of drivers the way they are treated at times is shocking, good on them and hope they get the change that is needed

[Pretty Boy]

Good on them.

Lothian Buses throwing the pay bribe in at the last minute and using that line in all their communications about the strike is as shameless an attempt at manipulating local opinion as I have seen in a while. As I said elsewhere this is classic 'divide and conquer' from management. Paint the drivers and Union as greedy and try to influence opinion against them.

Reading through various social media channels it seems that has failed and public opinion is very much on the drivers side.

[RyeSloan]

Would I be right in saying all of this came about because one driver was sacked for posting a ‘funny’ meme of the boss on a private WhatsApp thread?

[Cataplana]

Behind them 100% although it will impact on going to the Festival.

The drivers are at the sharp end of what everyone in this city has had to endure due to over tourism.

Driving in town must be hard enough, without having to keep to a timetable and act as the tourist information service .

The final straw has to be that driver getting the sack for mocking the CEO. Good for them for standing up for themselves.

The rest of the city needs to get behind them, and take a leaf out of their book.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Would I be right in saying all of this came about because one driver was sacked for posting a ‘funny’ meme of the boss on a private WhatsApp thread?

Yes, and the guys who shared it were suspended.
They wouldn't reinstate him and then the bullying culture accusations came out.

[RyeSloan]

Yes, and the guys who shared it were suspended.
They wouldn't reinstate him and then the bullying culture accusations came out.

Ah I thought I had read that.

Seems petty to say the least and maybe does reflect the overall management culture. That said I’m sure the drivers used to have a beef with the dude that ran LRT for years as well (Renilson?) so maybe this driver / management thing has been a long term issue.

I know most big businesses have ‘out of work’ clauses re conduct etc but there is an interesting privacy thing here as well re the fact it was done on a private WhatsApp thread.

[Pete]

Yes, and the guys who shared it were suspended.
They wouldn't reinstate him and then the bullying culture accusations came out.

You don’t hear about these things on the news and this is the first I’ve heard of this. It sounds as if it’s all about ego’s and they are being put before the interests of the public.

However, there are probably strict rules regarding social media and private or not, they’ve been broken and the company are going by the book.

It’s a difficult one but I’m siding with the drivers here and a more mature management strategy would solve the problem. Social media is a fairly new phenomenon so the rules regarding its use therefore have to develop as we begin to get used to it becoming a part of our lives.

[Future17]

Ah I thought I had read that.

Seems petty to say the least and maybe does reflect the overall management culture. That said I’m sure the drivers used to have a beef with the dude that ran LRT for years as well (Renilson?) so maybe this driver / management thing has been a long term issue.

I know most big businesses have ‘out of work’ clauses re conduct etc but there is an interesting privacy thing here as well re the fact it was done on a private WhatsApp thread.

One of the lessons here is that there's no such thing as privacy on social media. As soon as you share a comment or photo etc. you no longer have control over what happens to it.

[lord bunberry]

Bonanza time for the taxis :greengrin

[Mr Grieves]

Unite recommended that their members accept the deal offered by Lothian buses. Why did the the drivers overwhelmingly reject the offer and what do they they actually want?

[stoneyburn hibs]

You don’t hear about these things on the news and this is the first I’ve heard of this. It sounds as if it’s all about ego’s and they are being put before the interests of the public.

However, there are probably strict rules regarding social media and private or not, they’ve been broken and the company are going by the book.

It’s a difficult one but I’m siding with the drivers here and a more mature management strategy would solve the problem. Social media is a fairly new phenomenon so the rules regarding its use therefore have to develop as we begin to get used to it becoming a part of our lives.

My stepfather is an LRT driver, there is apparently a lot more accusations that could be aired.

I fully support them.

[Smartie]

Unite recommended that their members accept the deal offered by Lothian buses. Why did the the drivers overwhelmingly reject the offer and what do they they actually want?

If the dispute isn't about money then I don't know why more money would be an adequate solution?

[GlesgaeHibby]

Unite recommended that their members accept the deal offered by Lothian buses. Why did the the drivers overwhelmingly reject the offer and what do they they actually want?

Part of the offer was seemingly that management would abide by company policy going forward - why wouldn't they be expected to do so already?

It's poor form that management and the media are trying to spin this as being about pay.

[Cataplana]

One of the lessons here is that there's no such thing as privacy on social media. As soon as you share a comment or photo etc. you no longer have control over what happens to it.

There is such a thing as common sense though. It seems that the executive involved is so caught up in his own self image that he has lost sight of what is good for the business.

This strike is an ideal opportunity for the board of LRT to revisit their management philosophy, as the current one is about to hit them in the pocket.

Stupid ******* should have been able to take a joke, but he acts the big I Am instead. Who breaks a butterfly on a wheel?

[pollution]

I am confused. Their union has twice recommended an acceptance of a deal but the drivers refused.

The complaint isn't about money? I wish someone would be specific about an example of bullying, not the original parody of an executive.

As someone who complained to management about bullying at work there is always a particular instance of intimidation that lead to a settlement.

In my case it was to the agreed departure of said manager.

[Cataplana]

I am confused. Their union has twice recommended an acceptance of a deal but the drivers refused.

The complaint isn't about money? I wish someone would be specific about an example of bullying, not the original parody of an executive.

As someone who complained to management about bullying at work there is always a particular instance of intimidation that lead to a settlement.

In my case it was to the agreed departure of said manager.

LRT seem to have different methods from your employer. Good to know your situation was resolved though.

[Fife-Hibee]

So what exactly are they striking for? Who has been bullied? Because by the sounds of it, the people who were bullied (on social media) have taken action against the bullies and now the bullies are the ones going on strike? :confused:

[Mr Grieves]

Part of the offer was seemingly that management would abide by company policy going forward - why wouldn't they be expected to do so already?

It's poor form that management and the media are trying to spin this as being about pay.


If the dispute isn't about money then I don't know why more money would be an adequate solution?

That's fair enough, but it would appear that their own union aren't clear about their demands. So what is it that they actually want?

[Danderhall Hibs]

If it’s not about money what are the drivers holding out for? Do they want some management to be sacked?

[Cataplana]

If it’s not about money what are the drivers holding out for? Do they want some management to be sacked?

I'm guessing they are looking for respect. It appears they haven't been treated that way, and want more than lip service.

It seems that the management have taken them for granted, and seen them as weak an ineffective. A strike is an opportunity to show them they have power in the relationship too.

[Pretty Boy]

Sometimes in a work place it's not always easy to express perfect examples of bullying and harassment but it's still evident it exists.

A few years ago I worked for a business that was bought over. The new owner brought in his own GM who in turn brought in his own team, that's fair enough. The culture of the whole business completely changed and long serving members of staff were increasingly isolated and ostracised. We had a group of casual staff who only worked during special events and some of them were effectively dismissed from their jobs through not being given shifts, being excluded from training and being removed from email lists and so on. Senior members of staff were subject to de facto demotion as new roles were created that superceded roles they had carried out for years. Overtime was no longer optional and breaks were actively discouraged, it wasn't uncommon on a busy weekend to work 14 hours without stopping to eat.

If you asked me for a specific example of me being bullied I'd struggle to give one, I can stand up for myself. However I was aware a culture that fuelled bullying and harassment existed. Younger members of staff were treated as scapegoats, senior staff from the old management were systematically driven out of their jobs and it became a horrible environment to work in. I can't say I shed many tears recently when I heard the business was struggling.

[Pretty Boy]

So what exactly are they striking for? Who has been bullied? Because by the sounds of it, the people who were bullied (on social media) have taken action against the bullies and now the bullies are the ones going on strike? :confused:

Hopefully Bojo does a Maggie and puts these pesky workers in their place.

[Fife-Hibee]

Hopefully Bojo does a Maggie and puts these pesky workers in their place.

Really?

Seems like some people thought they could run off at the mouth on the world wide web and not be pulled up for it. They do realize this is 2019?

[Pretty Boy]

Really?

Seems like some people thought they could run off at the mouth on the world wide web and not be pulled up for it. They do realize this is 2019?

You seriously think 90% of eligible drivers, with an 80% turnout, voted for strike action because of one incident?

This is just a further example of your scattergun, inconsistent approach to every topic. You rant away about Tories this and Tories that and then a local industrial dispute sees you immediately take up a position against local workers arguing for improved working conditions. For all your slavish devotion to SNP rhetoric when you go 'off piste' you often appear as though you would be right at home amongst the more extreme Tories you claim to despise.

[Fife-Hibee]

You seriously think 90% of eligible drivers, with an 80% turnout, voted for strike action because of one incident?

This is just a further example of your scattergun, inconsistent approach to every topic. You rant away about Tories this and Tories that and then a local industrial dispute sees you immediately take up a position against local workers arguing for improved working conditions. For all your slavish devotion to SNP rhetoric when you go 'off piste' you often appear as though you would be right at home amongst the more extreme Tories you claim to despise.

:hilarious

What are the details then? What exactly are they striking for? What are they hoping to gain from this?

Perhaps it's more sensible to know the actual details before jumping on the bandwagon?

[speedy_gonzales]

Perhaps it's more sensible to know the actual details before jumping on the bandwagon?

If only this mantra could be applied to every thread!!!

[speedy_gonzales]

I know no more than has already been published on MSM & social media, but a few years ago I used to dip in to a forum called "scümbus". It was an anonymous blog/forum by Lothian Buses drivers. Some of the stories there were hilarious, the blame that management would put on drivers for issues and incidents well beyond their control was ridiculous. There was also a fair rift between the regular drivers and the Airlink drivers, apparently the 100 drivers were meant to be the creme de la crème but in some instances it was a way of getting a troublemaker or nippy sweetie out the way.
If half the stories I read were true, then clearly there is a massive issue between the management and the workforce that provide an essential service to this city and beyond.
It's telling that part of the deal for the "drivers" was that the company were going to bring in external management consultants to assess existing management protocols which may have resulted in extra training for existing management, also, a company wide commitment that management would follow existing company policies!?! I couldn't write that sentence without using "management",,,, pretty much sums it up!
Clearly, there is a rotten core to this company and the drivers are striking (quite rightly) for something greater than money.

[MSK]

:hilarious

What are the details then? What exactly are they striking for? What are they hoping to gain from this?

Perhaps it's more sensible to know the actual details before jumping on the bandwagon?Simply put, bullying from management, this is not an isolated incident, it has been happening for years and not in one single depot either. Drivers are being put under enormous pressure now and if they blink they are being hauled up. A lot of those managers are bullies and many are ex drivers too but since promotion a few are on ego trips. A relative of mines drives for LRT, he started with them many years ago and loved it, he left after he moved from Edinburgh but after 8 years he went back, good pay, no complaints there but he says the atmosphere has changed, he has already been hauled before the beaks twice for the most ridiculous of reasons

[Fife-Hibee]

Simply put, bullying from management, this is not an isolated incident, it has been happening for years and not in one single depot either. Drivers are being put under enormous pressure now and if they blink they are being hauled up. A lot of those managers are bullies and many are ex drivers too but since promotion a few are on ego trips. A relative of mines drives for LRT, he started with them many years ago and loved it, he left after he moved from Edinburgh but after 8 years he went back, good pay, no complaints there but he says the atmosphere has changed, he has already been hauled before the beaks twice for the most ridiculous of reasons

Everybody in every line of work thinks it's ridiculous when they're pulled up by their bosses, regardless of the reasons. For all we know, the reasons may well be fully justified. Management may just be following protocol that has been introduced through law changes to make the service more robust.

I've yet to see or hear of any real actual examples of unjust reprimands from egocentric managers. Just because a worker feels hard done by, doesn't mean it was wrong for them to be pulled up under company policy.

[Cataplana]

Everybody in every line of work thinks it's ridiculous when they're pulled up by their bosses, regardless of the reasons. For all we know, the reasons may well be fully justified. Management may just be following protocol that has been introduced through law changes to make the service more robust.

I've yet to see or hear of any real actual examples of unjust reprimands from egocentric managers. Just because a worker feels hard done by, doesn't mean it was wrong for them to be pulled up under company policy.

There may just be a point struggling to make itself known in what you are saying. But it looks to me like a triumph of covering all the bases, whilst saying nothing really.

It's pretty obvious to me from what those ITK are saying that it isn't a case of a lone worker. The nonsense over the guy getting the sack for taking the piss out of the boss is a sure sign that massive egos are at play, and that anyone stepping out of line is getting it in the neck.

[speedy_gonzales]

Management may just be following protocol that has been introduced through law changes to make the service more robust.


If that was the case, then why is one of the many points put forward by the company, to the staff, to resolve the situation is "a commitment that management would abide by company policies".

Why is the company not following it's own management policies and guidelines already???


Incidentally, what "law changes" are you inferring to?

[Mon Dieu4]

Everybody in every line of work thinks it's ridiculous when they're pulled up by their bosses, regardless of the reasons. For all we know, the reasons may well be fully justified. Management may just be following protocol that has been introduced through law changes to make the service more robust.

I've yet to see or hear of any real actual examples of unjust reprimands from egocentric managers. Just because a worker feels hard done by, doesn't mean it was wrong for them to be pulled up under company policy.

How about not being able to take your tie off without managers consent even in all the hot weather we have been having or being reprimanded for wearing the previous years fleece jacket before your shift has even started, those are two I've heard first hand from drivers

[Fife-Hibee]

There may just be a point struggling to make itself known in what you are saying. But it looks to me like a triumph of covering all the bases, whilst saying nothing really.

It's pretty obvious to me from what those ITK are saying that it isn't a case of a lone worker. The nonsense over the guy getting the sack for taking the piss out of the boss is a sure sign that massive egos are at play, and that anyone stepping out of line is getting it in the neck.

Which is the same as any other line of work where the employees never really get much of a chance to establish much of a working relationship with their managers.

If you're an employee for a company where you're rarely ever around the vicinity of the manager and you actively stick the boot into them publicly over the internet using a social media platform that clearly identifies who you are. Then you're asking to be sacked.

I have no sympathy for anybody who is daft enough to do that.

[Fife-Hibee]

How about not being able to take your tie off without managers consent even in all the hot weather we have been having or being reprimanded for wearing the previous years fleece jacket before your shift has even started, those are two I've heard first hand from drivers

This doesn't just apply to bus drivers. I've heard of black cab taxi drivers being reported for similar things. There are some very strict policies in place and regardless of what your personal opinion of those policies are, the workers know what the policies are and that they must be adhered to at all times.

If an employee wants to take the risk by breaking company policy because they think the policy is stupid or for whatever other reason, then they always run the risk of being fired and have to take responsibility for their own actions when it happens.

[Cataplana]

Which is the same as any other line of work where the employees never really get much of a chance to establish much of a working relationship with their managers.

If you're an employee for a company where you're rarely ever around the vicinity of the manager and you actively stick the boot into them publicly over the internet using a social media platform that clearly identifies who you are. Then you're asking to be sacked.

I have no sympathy for anybody who is daft enough to do that.

You are entitled to your point of view, thanks.:aok:

[Mon Dieu4]

This doesn't just apply to bus drivers. I've heard of black cab taxi drivers being reported for similar things. There are some very strict policies in place and regardless of what your personal opinion of those policies are, the workers know what the policies are and that they must be adhered to at all times.

If an employee wants to take the risk by breaking company policy because they think the policy is stupid or for whatever other reason, then they always run the risk of being fired and have to take responsibility for their own actions when it happens.

Unless you collectively get together and make people realise that things like this in the grand scheme of things don't matter, people are just after a friendly get me from A to B service, good on them, you don't get change by just keeping quiet or towing the corporate line

[patch1875]

This doesn't just apply to bus drivers. I've heard of black cab taxi drivers being reported for similar things. There are some very strict policies in place and regardless of what your personal opinion of those policies are, the workers know what the policies are and that they must be adhered to at all times.

If an employee wants to take the risk by breaking company policy because they think the policy is stupid or for whatever other reason, then they always run the risk of being fired and have to take responsibility for their own actions when it happens.
You hear similar stories coming out about the cab office the difference is taxi/phc drivers are not employees if they take a dislike to someone they can make life very difficult does seem the old fashioned tactics are alive and well in the council.

[matty_f]

Would I be right in saying all of this came about because one driver was sacked for posting a ‘funny’ meme of the boss on a private WhatsApp thread?

They’ve posted a meme about the boss and there are not allegations about bullying? Is it the boss making the allegation?

[MSK]

Everybody in every line of work thinks it's ridiculous when they're pulled up by their bosses, regardless of the reasons. For all we know, the reasons may well be fully justified. Management may just be following protocol that has been introduced through law changes to make the service more robust.

I've yet to see or hear of any real actual examples of unjust reprimands from egocentric managers. Just because a worker feels hard done by, doesn't mean it was wrong for them to be pulled up under company policy.Some of the reasons are laughable, he told me he was pulled up because he forgot to pick up a roll of tickets, again after his module (electronic ticket dispenser) failed as they are meant to check them before they leave the depot, they sometimes work then fail on route, he was pulled up and lettered because he refused a buggy on board despite allocation being full, he asked the lassie if she could fold the buggy, she refused and he told her she couldn't get on (this is a regular occurrence) he closed the doors and drove off, she then reported him and the following day he was pulled up, not just for refusing her a place on the bus but he was alleged to have been abusive to her. Drivers have no protection nowadays, my mate has been threatened many times, had windows smashed (Rosewell and Niddrie) been spat on many occasions, all for providing a public service, dont worry about it though, we have cctv on buses now.

Of course there are regulations etc but these guys are professional drivers, many have been doing the job for a long time, rather than doing what they do best they are spending more time sitting in the managers office getting knuckles wrapped by the very same guys who done the very same job.

Thats just a couple of examples of the pettiness, Im sure many other drivers will have their reasons.

[Scouse Hibee]

It generally really pisses me off when strike action inconveniences me, fortunately I no longer use buses so I'm not really bothered what they do :greengrin

[BroxburnHibee]

So the bosses have cancelled the planned parade of old buses tomorrow.

Talk about petty!

[Future17]

If only this mantra could be applied to every thread!!!

Or even his/her own posts.

[Cataplana]

So the bosses have cancelled the planned parade of old buses tomorrow.

Talk about petty!

Not winning themselves any friends.

[Fife-Hibee]

So the bosses have cancelled the planned parade of old buses tomorrow.

Talk about petty!

Or perhaps there weren't enough drivers available for the parade to go ahead?

[MSK]

Or perhaps there weren't enough drivers available for the parade to go ahead?Nope, plenty drivers available to drive the old buses, even drivers that are on annual leave put their names forward to drive them if a slot became available👍

[speedy_gonzales]

So the bosses have cancelled the planned parade of old buses tomorrow.

Talk about petty!

Seriously? That's petty AF!

Management not winning any friends there,,,,

[Pretty Boy]

Or perhaps there weren't enough drivers available for the parade to go ahead?

Given the strike doesn't start until the 2nd of August that would suggest a monumental planning **** up by the management then.

[speedy_gonzales]

Updated article on BBC website, Managing Director fanning the flames, "A bus strike in Edinburgh may pose a risk to public safety, the firm's director has claimed",,,, how?
The company will run a limited service with the drivers willing to come in to work, it's not like when there's a rail strike and trains are crewed by managers with limited experience and end up opening the wrong doors as the train arrives or even leaves a station!?!

[Cataplana]

Updated article on BBC website, Managing Director fanning the flames, "A bus strike in Edinburgh may pose a risk to public safety, the firm's director has claimed",,,, how?
The company will run a limited service with the drivers willing to come in to work, it's not like when there's a rail strike and trains are crewed by managers with limited experience and end up opening the wrong doors as the train arrives or even leaves a station!?!

Is this him?

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/lothian-buses-boss-still-earns-more-than-david-cameron-1-4039481

[speedy_gonzales]

Is this him?

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/lothian-buses-boss-still-earns-more-than-david-cameron-1-4039481

It is indeed, would seem his namesake Rich Hall's alter ego "Otis Lee Crenshaw" would make a better job of running the company!

[Cataplana]

It is indeed, would seem his namesake Rich Hall's alter ego "Otis Lee Crenshaw" would make a better job of running the company!

:thumbsup:

I'm pretty sure there will be a lot of people on his back by this time next week. Won't be the first guy to come a cropper due to hubris.

The likes of Underbelly, The Gilded Balloon, and Assembly are sure to feel the pinch. Not to mention employers like Standard Life, RBS and HBOS.

[matty_f]

You do hear some horror stories about how the drivers are treated, so if the strike improves things for them then I support them.

[Weegreenman]

Have a few mates who are drivers.

What i’ve heard is that management “ allegedly ”have reneged on previous agreements. One example and it’s one of many is that the moment the MD came to LB he started on the drivers straight away by abolishing an agreement regards allowing drivers to remove their ties between May and September I believe it was. Very petty and has now been reinstated. That’s the kind of management they are dealing with.
Just to touch on some of the other grievances. The high number of warnings that get dished out. Driving hours being extended, shifts being changed at short notice or without the Driver being informed. Rota changes. They have also recently had a whole new uniform and they the Drivers hate it. My mates say the shirts are cheap crap as are the jackets, although I think they have agreed to sort some of the problems.
One of the things I hear a lot is that they never back the drivers when it comes to a disciplinary. Drivers are expendable.

Oh ye and the micro management going on by the bosses at the top. So garage managers are not able to use common sense when it comes to making decisions regards Drivers discipline.

[Cataplana]

Have a few mates who are drivers.

What i’ve heard is that management “ allegedly ”have reneged on previous agreements. One example and it’s one of many is that the moment the MD came to LB he started on the drivers straight away by abolishing an agreement regards allowing drivers to remove their ties between May and September I believe it was. Very petty and has now been reinstated. That’s the kind of management they are dealing with.
Just to touch on some of the other grievances. The high number of warnings that get dished out. Driving hours being extended, shifts being changed at short notice or without the Driver being informed. Rota changes. They have also recently had a whole new uniform and they the Drivers hate it. My mates say the shirts are cheap crap as are the jackets, although I think they have agreed to sort some of the problems.
One of the things I hear a lot is that they never back the drivers when it comes to a disciplinary. Drivers are expendable.

Oh ye and the micro management going on by the bosses at the top. So garage managers are not able to use common sense when it comes to making decisions regards Drivers discipline.

Just seen Hall on the news. He says he is determined to improve Lothian Buses, thing is they were the best bus company in Britain when he arrived.

Seems he tried to fix a car that was already working. Looks like this is all about him.

Pretty sure he was brought in, because the person he replaced wasn't prepared to do Lesley "Hitler" Hinds bidding, and syphon off the profits for the tram.

[MSK]

Have a few mates who are drivers.

What i’ve heard is that management “ allegedly ”have reneged on previous agreements. One example and it’s one of many is that the moment the MD came to LB he started on the drivers straight away by abolishing an agreement regards allowing drivers to remove their ties between May and September I believe it was. Very petty and has now been reinstated. That’s the kind of management they are dealing with.
Just to touch on some of the other grievances. The high number of warnings that get dished out. Driving hours being extended, shifts being changed at short notice or without the Driver being informed. Rota changes. They have also recently had a whole new uniform and they the Drivers hate it. My mates say the shirts are cheap crap as are the jackets, although I think they have agreed to sort some of the problems.
One of the things I hear a lot is that they never back the drivers when it comes to a disciplinary. Drivers are expendable.

Oh ye and the micro management going on by the bosses at the top. So garage managers are not able to use common sense when it comes to making decisions regards Drivers discipline.Expect management to turn the sympathy screw, people need public transport, they are gonna spin it to turn the public on the drivers

[Fife-Hibee]

Expect management to turn the sympathy screw, people need public transport, they are gonna spin it to turn the public on the drivers

Because the general public are too stupid to read the situation for themselves and come to their own conclusion on the matter?

All sides of an argument are spun.

[MSK]

Because the general public are too stupid to read the situation for themselves and come to their own conclusion on the matter?

All sides of an argument are spun.The management will play the wage rise card, joe public will be up in arms because those greedy ****ing bus drivers wont accept a wage rise, although all Ive heard so far is about management bullying so hopefully the public will see the real reason for the strike and not that of a **** bag management

[RyeSloan]

Because the general public are too stupid to read the situation for themselves and come to their own conclusion on the matter?

All sides of an argument are spun.

Ahh so the usual then.

People are stupid.

Fife makes an arbitrary decision on the situation.

None of the above advances the discussion...

[Fife-Hibee]

The management will play the wage rise card, joe public will be up in arms because those greedy ****ing bus drivers wont accept a wage rise, although all Ive heard so far is about management bullying so hopefully the public will see the real reason for the strike and not that of a **** bag management

Are you suggesting that teachers weren't really after a payrise when the public accused them of getting greedy? Because i'm pretty sure they were.

[Danderhall Hibs]

I'm guessing they are looking for respect. It appears they haven't been treated that way, and want more than lip service.

It seems that the management have taken them for granted, and seen them as weak an ineffective. A strike is an opportunity to show them they have power in the relationship too.

That’s what it sounds like - normally when a strike is called you get to hear what the demands are (eg reinstate my final salary pension, give me a payrise, more holidays or whatever). With this one it’s not clear what they want and if it’s respect they want.

A lot of rumours about bullying but not heard many specifics, if they are being bullied they deserve support and if they go ahead with the strike the public shouldn’t use the limited service that will be out.

[Fife-Hibee]

That’s what it sounds like - normally when a strike is called you get to hear what the demands are (eg reinstate my final salary pension, give me a payrise, more holidays or whatever). With this one it’s not clear what they want and if it’s respect they want.

A lot of rumours about bullying but not heard many specifics, if they are being bullied they deserve support and if they go ahead with the strike the public shouldn’t use the limited service that will be out.

What about those who don't or can't drive? How are they supposed to get to work? The bus drivers aren't going to gain much public sympathy if they can't be clear about what they're trying to achieve with such a strike.

[speedy_gonzales]

What about those who don't or can't drive? How are they supposed to get to work?

Walk, cycle, use another bus provider, take a train. There are a few options to consider.

[Fife-Hibee]

Walk, cycle, use another bus provider, take a train. There are a few options to consider.

Not everybody is in walking distance of their work. Not everybody is able to cycle to their work either. You also assume that an alternative bus provider or train is an available option to all. It isn't.

Telling people to boycott a service due to a strike that nobody really knows any of the details behind is ridiculous.

[MSK]

Are you suggesting that teachers weren't really after a payrise when the public accused them of getting greedy? Because i'm pretty sure they were.Did I mention Teachers ? Again you are spinning this to suit yer own agenda, Ive followed a lot of threads on here with your input and I honestly cant understand why folk waste their ****ing time attempting to debate with you, well Im certainly not, you crack on 👍

[Fife-Hibee]

Did I mention Teachers ? Again you are spinning this to suit yer own agenda, Ive followed a lot of threads on here with your input and I honestly cant understand why folk waste their ****ing time attempting to debate with you, well Im certainly not, you crack on 👍

Then why did you make that point then? Why would the public automatically assume that they are after more money? What is your basis for this claim?

[McD]

Sometimes in a work place it's not always easy to express perfect examples of bullying and harassment but it's still evident it exists.

A few years ago I worked for a business that was bought over. The new owner brought in his own GM who in turn brought in his own team, that's fair enough. The culture of the whole business completely changed and long serving members of staff were increasingly isolated and ostracised. We had a group of casual staff who only worked during special events and some of them were effectively dismissed from their jobs through not being given shifts, being excluded from training and being removed from email lists and so on. Senior members of staff were subject to de facto demotion as new roles were created that superceded roles they had carried out for years. Overtime was no longer optional and breaks were actively discouraged, it wasn't uncommon on a busy weekend to work 14 hours without stopping to eat.

If you asked me for a specific example of me being bullied I'd struggle to give one, I can stand up for myself. However I was aware a culture that fuelled bullying and harassment existed. Younger members of staff were treated as scapegoats, senior staff from the old management were systematically driven out of their jobs and it became a horrible environment to work in. I can't say I shed many tears recently when I heard the business was struggling.


the situation you’ve just described is spookily similar to a situation with a company I worked for before my current employer.
Screamed at daily by senior management, unachievable targets being set then disciplinary action when unsurprisingly not being met, working 60+ hour weeks because of policy changes and that I/we should just ‘deal with it’, and more.

It became so ingrained, that when I moved to my current job, my new boss would make a point if checking in with me once or twice a week, until after a few weeks, she gently pointed out that I never started a conversation with her unless I had a problem, and that it was not only ok but encouraged that I could and should be able to have a conversation just to say hi, etc. I realised I had become so hemmed in by the working practices of the senior management at my previous job of ‘don’t contact me unless there’s a massive problem, and be prepared to be torn a new one when you do’, that I hadn’t even noticed it until she showed me.

where I work now has an incredible atmosphere, doing a job that I really enjoy, it’s night and day to the **** storm of the previous place. And like you PB, I didn’t shed many tears when that business went under (with the exception of a few former colleagues).

[marinello59]

Are you suggesting that teachers weren't really after a payrise when the public accused them of getting greedy? Because i'm pretty sure they were.


Then why did you make that point then? Why would the public automatically assume that they are after more money? What is your basis for this claim?

You seem to be arguing for two opposing points here. I’m lost. :confused:

The point I think MSK was making is that the company offered a pay rise the drivers didnt ask for. That looks like a cynical attempt to shift focus from what appears to be a genuine grievance from the drivers given that the company have acknowledged that management do need to make changes.

[MSK]

Then why did you make that point then? Why would the public automatically assume that they are after more money? What is your basis for this claim?I probably should have added that is my mates thoughts and as I said, he has been with LRT a long time so he knows how it works. However I will add to that.

I worked many years ago as a Drayman, great but very physical job, brewery management, all ex Draymen or Heriot brewery operatives, great guys and gave great support. Then there came a shift, all of the brewery management were offered a financial package/redundancy. In came micro managers, brutal guys with absolutely no brewery or man management skills.

For example we had 30 dray lorries with load capacity of 9 tons but for working safety they would each carry no more than 6 tons. Some drays would do 6 tons and come back for another 2/3 tons and that would be their days work.

Management had other ideas, they would halve the fleet, offer redundancy to the long term employees then have the others carrying the tonnage. It was a disaster, we had meeting after meeting but all we got was threats. We decided to take industrial action, Edinburgh/Glasgow and Dundee depots. The action was either full on strike or work to rule.

No sooner had those actions been discussed the news hit the pubs, publicans were up in arms, I remember going to Swannys bar at Ratcliffe terrace and we were confronted by the owner and a couple of his patrons who after pretty much calling us greedy *******s wanted to know who would deliver their beer. This continued over many a week and months, some understood but others were not prepared to listen to our side, they just wanted their beer.

A while later after speaking to a retired brewery rep he told me management had an emergency meeting with them and tech services and were to drip feed to publicans that we were requesting a sizeable wage increase. Lies lies and damned lies, we were on great pay and we got great incentives added so wage rise was never an issue.

Thats how those dirty *******s operated, it got worse, much worse. So I can draw parallels on how the LRT guys are feeling about their situation.

So there you have it, I now await your spin on things 👍

[Fife-Hibee]

I probably should have added that is my mates thoughts and as I said, he has been with LRT a long time so he knows how it works. However I will add to that.

I worked many years ago as a Drayman, great but very physical job, brewery management, all ex Draymen or Heriot brewery operatives, great guys and gave great support. Then there came a shift, all of the brewery management were offered a financial package/redundancy. In came micro managers, brutal guys with absolutely no brewery or man management skills.

For example we had 30 dray lorries with load capacity of 9 tons but for working safety they would each carry no more than 6 tons. Some drays would do 6 tons and come back for another 2/3 tons and that would be their days work.

Management had other ideas, they would halve the fleet, offer redundancy to the long term employees then have the others carrying the tonnage. It was a disaster, we had meeting after meeting but all we got was threats. We decided to take industrial action, Edinburgh/Glasgow and Dundee depots. The action was either full on strike or work to rule.

No sooner had those actions been discussed the news hit the pubs, publicans were up in arms, I remember going to Swannys bar at Ratcliffe terrace and we were confronted by the owner and a couple of his patrons who after pretty much calling us greedy *******s wanted to know who would deliver their beer. This continued over many a week and months, some understood but others were not prepared to listen to our side, they just wanted their beer.

A while later after speaking to a retired brewery rep he told me management had an emergency meeting with them and tech services and were to drip feed to publicans that we were requesting a sizeable wage increase. Lies lies and damned lies, we were on great pay and we got great incentives added so wage rise was never an issue.

Thats how those dirty *******s operated, it got worse, much worse. So I can draw parallels on how the LRT guys are feeling about their situation.

So there you have it, I now await your spin on things 👍

This is all well and fair enough. But what you're giving me here is your own personal experience on things witnessed through your own eyes and processed by your own mind.

I'm pretty sure if I was discussing this with someone who was working management at the time, they'd have their own take on events. Mentioning things that you perhaps haven't. Or spinning things in a different way to suit their own personal narrative.

There are far more employees out there than there are employers. So the balance of narrative is and always has been in the hands of the employees.

[MSK]

This is all well and fair enough. But what you're giving me here is your own personal experience on things witnessed through your own eyes and processed by your own mind.

I'm pretty sure if I was discussing this with someone who was working management at the time, they'd have their own take on events. Mentioning things that you perhaps haven't. Or spinning things in a different way to suit their own personal narrative.

There are far more employees out there than there are employers. So the balance of narrative is and always has been in the hands of the employees.Oh ffs, there you go again, ok just to suit your spin, I made it all up, management were great, fully supportive, no agenda, and we all lived happily ever after.

Hows that ? 👍

[Fife-Hibee]

Oh ffs, there you go again, ok just to suit your spin, I made it all up, management were great, fully supportive, no agenda, and we all lived happily ever after.

Hows that ? 👍

You talk about spin, then suggest i'm accusing you of making things up. Would you care to point out where i've made such accusations?

You seem very determined that people only understand it from your own point of view, ignoring the reasonable suggestion that there are other view points out there.

[McD]

You talk about spin, then suggest i'm accusing you of making things up. Would you care to point out where i've made such accusations?

You seem very determined that people only understand it from your own point of view, ignoring the reasonable suggestion that there are other view points out there.


:kettle:

[MSK]

You talk about spin, then suggest i'm accusing you of making things up. Would you care to point out where i've made such accusations?

You seem very determined that people only understand it from your own point of view, ignoring the reasonable suggestion that there are other view points out there.I posted a lot of what my mate has said as he is a current bus driver. I have no reason to disbelieve him and I added my experience that relates to his. Im not expecting you to believe anything but you have thrown in chat about the school teachers pay rise which has nothing whatsoever to do with the proposed LRT strike so you have baffled me with that.

So far we know the strike action is about bullying by management and I have thrown in stuff from my mate who is a current driver. You are looking for something else.

The strike has nothing to do with wage increases and has **** all to do with Teachers.

The proposed bus rally has been cancelled by LRT management due to the impending strike and not because of lack of driver availability.

Im out now so the floor is all yours 👍

[Future17]

You talk about spin, then suggest i'm accusing you of making things up. Would you care to point out where i've made such accusations?

You seem very determined that people only understand it from your own point of view, ignoring the reasonable suggestion that there are other view points out there.

Your involvement in this thread reads like a total car crash and your position is the same as a drunk driver, swerving about all over the place unsure of what line to take.

You probably could have said something like; "there are two sides to every story, so I won't be forming an opinion until I'm satisfied I know enough of the detail" and left it at that. Unfortunately, you're so intent on arguing and noising people up that you'll find a way to try and justify a position that's contradictory to what the majority of others have said, then express that position in an aggressive/patronising/dismissive way.

Of course, when the subject matter is subjective, everyone is entitled to an opinion. However, as other posters have noted on this thread and others, you carry on this pattern of being contrary until you're caught out on something factual and someone proves you to be wrong, which you then refuse to acknowledge and simply avoid the thread for a few days.

You are the Donald Trump of Hibs.net.

[Hibbyradge]

You seriously think 90% of eligible drivers, with an 80% turnout, voted for strike action because of one incident?

This is just a further example of your scattergun, inconsistent approach to every topic. You rant away about Tories this and Tories that and then a local industrial dispute sees you immediately take up a position against local workers arguing for improved working conditions. For all your slavish devotion to SNP rhetoric when you go 'off piste' you often appear as though you would be right at home amongst the more extreme Tories you claim to despise.

:agree:

[Pete]

I wonder who will be manning this skeletal service.

Hell mend any drivers who cross a picket line. It wouldn’t be me anyway, not for all the tea in China.

[beensaidbefore]

Walk, cycle, use another bus provider, take a train. There are a few options to consider.

He does make a good point. I will be facing a 2hr walk to work as there are no alternatives for where I need to get to/from.

Not exactly best pleased at the prospect.

[we are hibs]

He does make a good point. I will be facing a 2hr walk to work as there are no alternatives for where I need to get to/from.

Not exactly best pleased at the prospect.

Im with you. I live too far away to walk and it would be a 3 and a half hour walk for me rather than the hour and a bit bus journey. Be a nightmare trying to get to easter road next saturday too.

[Scouse Hibee]

Im with you. I live too far away to walk and it would be a 3 and a half hour walk for me rather than the hour and a bit bus journey. Be a nightmare trying to get to easter road next saturday too.

I thought it was a one day strike action?

[we are hibs]

I thought it was a one day strike action?

I was under the assumption that it was until it was resolved. Might be wrong.

https://twitter.com/on_lothianbuses/status/1154896941580541955?s=19


Just seen this

[Radium]

This is all well and fair enough. But what you're giving me here is your own personal experience on things witnessed through your own eyes and processed by your own mind.

I'm pretty sure if I was discussing this with someone who was working management at the time, they'd have their own take on events. Mentioning things that you perhaps haven't. Or spinning things in a different way to suit their own personal narrative.

There are far more employees out there than there are employers. So the balance of narrative is and always has been in the hands of the employees.

As you say, managers are capable of spinning things.

You do seem fairly invested in characterising the management as blameless in the situation but there appears to be little being put forward to back up why.

Two things jump out from the information in the public domain.

The Union don’t understand the grievances: otherwise why have they recommended deals that have been overwhelming rejected.

The management are including in the agreement a commitment to tackle the bullying culture. That included bringing in management consultants.

The solution will come from something that addresses the toxic relationship that the union are now clearly reporting. There may be faults on both sides but the culture of an organisation is driven by management and they need to demonstrate how they are going to fix it.






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Scouse Hibee]

I was under the assumption that it was until it was resolved. Might be wrong.

https://twitter.com/on_lothianbuses/status/1154896941580541955?s=19


Just seen this

Ah you’re right, I didn’t realise that it was the start of continuous strike action. A right pain for those affected.

[Danderhall Hibs]

As you say, managers are capable of spinning things.

You do seem fairly invested in characterising the management as blameless in the situation but there appears to be little being put forward to back up why.

Two things jump out from the information in the public domain.

The Union don’t understand the grievances: otherwise why have they recommended deals that have been overwhelming rejected.

The management are including in the agreement a commitment to tackle the bullying culture. That included bringing in management consultants.

The solution will come from something that addresses the toxic relationship that the union are now clearly reporting. There may be faults on both sides but the culture of an organisation is driven by management and they need to demonstrate how they are going to fix it.






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

:agree: seems clear to me that the drivers haven’t articulated what the grievance is. The public don’t know and their own union don’t get it.

The first question surely asked is “what is it you want me to do?”

[speedy_gonzales]

Not everybody is in walking distance of their work. Not everybody is able to cycle to their work either. You also assume that an alternative bus provider or train is an available option to all. It isn't.

Telling people to boycott a service due to a strike that nobody really knows any of the details behind is ridiculous.

Depends what you think walking distance is!
Also, I have made no assumptions. On the arterial routes in to Edinburgh there ARE alternative services.
The area that Lothian Buses cover (traditional maroon buses) is perhaps Wallyford to Gorebridge, over to Penicuik, Balerno to East Craig's through Leith back to Wallyford.
For those that can, there are options. They won't be easy, as quick or as cheap, but there ARE options.

[Fife-Hibee]

Depends what you think walking distance is!
Also, I have made no assumptions. On the arterial routes in to Edinburgh there ARE alternative services.
The area that Lothian Buses cover (traditional maroon buses) is perhaps Wallyford to Gorebridge, over to Penicuik, Balerno to East Craig's through Leith back to Wallyford.
For those that can, there are options. They won't be easy, as quick or as cheap, but there ARE options.

Many people around the outskirts of the city only have lothian routes to rely on. The only "alternative" is forking out taxi fares. Extortionate if you're working a minimum wage job somewhere around the city centre. Let's not kid on this isn't going to be a major complication for a sizable amount of people.

Unless they get clear on what exactly it is they're trying to achieve through strike action, they're not going to build up much public sympathy.

[speedy_gonzales]

Many people around the outskirts of the city only have lothian routes to rely on.

For example,,,,


The only "alternative" is forking out taxi fares.

Only? Surely not!


Let's not kid on this isn't going to be a major complication for a sizable amount of people.

Of course it is, what better way to focus the minds of those around the negotiating table.


Unless they get clear on what exactly it is they're trying to achieve through strike action, they're not going to build up much public sympathy.

It would appear you are incorrect. It can be seen from here and other platforms as well as speaking face to face with bus users that members of the public do seem aware that there is a toxic management within the company and although there will be a massive inconvenience there is an element of sympathy and support for the drivers. That's not to say everyone is in support,,,,

[Bristolhibby]

Coming up for the game on Saturday with my two boys.

A major ball ache to get from the Braids to ER, but support the drivers 100%. It does ya well to be reminded that the workers are the most important part in the system. Will just have to make other arrangements.

Taxi drivers will be making a fortune.

J

[speedy_gonzales]

A major ball ache to get from the Braids to ER,

J
Have you thought about using Borders Buses that come in from Penicuik to the bus station then a 15 minute walk down to ER?

[Cataplana]

The strike will inconvenience people, but we shouldn't lose sight of whose fault it actually is. If people are prepared to give up a day's wages, it looks like it is the only way they can make their point.

As customers, we should be demanding explanations from the company, and not the drivers, who are exercising their democratic right to withold their labour. So far, LRT is not covering itself in glory.

[Smartie]

The strike will inconvenience people, but we shouldn't lose sight of whose fault it actually is. If people are prepared to give up a day's wages, it looks like it is the only way they can make their point.

As customers, we should be demanding explanations from the company, and not the drivers, who are exercising their democratic right to withold their labour. So far, LRT is not covering itself in glory.

Whilst I agree we should be demanding explanations from the company, I think we need to know more from the drivers. All I've heard about it is what I've read on here.

Many of us who are reliant on the service to get to our work (some of us who have businesses have customers who use the service to get to our business premises) are going to be inconvenienced. As it is a service we all value, it would be good to weigh up the validity of the strike rather than just go on leaked management propaganda.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

The strike will inconvenience people, but we shouldn't lose sight of whose fault it actually is. If people are prepared to give up a day's wages, it looks like it is the only way they can make their point.

As customers, we should be demanding explanations from the company, and not the drivers, who are exercising their democratic right to withold their labour. So far, LRT is not covering itself in glory.

I've yet to speak to anyone that isn't sympathising with the drivers, good luck to them, they provide a highly efficient service.

[BroxburnHibee]

Coming up for the game on Saturday with my two boys.

A major ball ache to get from the Braids to ER, but support the drivers 100%. It does ya well to be reminded that the workers are the most important part in the system. Will just have to make other arrangements.

Taxi drivers will be making a fortune.

J

Most taxi drivers are of the opinion that it wont go ahead.

[Cataplana]

Whilst I agree we should be demanding explanations from the company, I think we need to know more from the drivers. All I've heard about it is what I've read on here.

Many of us who are reliant on the service to get to our work (some of us who have businesses have customers who use the service to get to our business premises) are going to be inconvenienced. As it is a service we all value, it would be good to weigh up the validity of the strike rather than just go on leaked management propaganda.

Agree 100%, as consumers the buck stops with the company, not the employees.

[Cataplana]

I've yet to speak to anyone that isn't sympathising with the drivers, good luck to them, they provide a highly efficient service.

Neither have I, but the BBC managed to find the only two people in Edinburgh who criticised them, on last night's news. As well as letting Richard Hall take the whole issue on his shoulders, "I am trying to improve the bus service", or words to that effect. Not, "we", or "the company", but "I".

The guy looks seriously out of his depth, and has probably found that running mass transit in a large city is not the same thing as making sure there are four buses a day between Campbelltown and Lochgilphead, as he did at West Coast Motors.

People who have risen too far tend to concentrate on the petty things like whether ties need to be worn in summer, instead of tackling the big issues like equipping the fleet with contactless.

[Just Alf]

Neither have I, but the BBC managed to find the only two people in Edinburgh who criticised them, on last night's news. As well as letting Richard Hall take the whole issue on his shoulders, "I am trying to improve the bus service", or words to that effect. Not, "we", or "the company", but "I".

The guy looks seriously out of his depth, and has probably found that running mass transit in a large city is not the same thing as making sure there are four buses a day between Campbelltown and Lochgilphead, as he did at West Coast Motors.

People who have risen too far tend to concentrate on the petty things like whether ties need to be worn in summer, instead of tackling the big issues like equipping the fleet with contactless.Think your last paragraph totally nails it regarding this whole issue.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[southsider]

Think your last paragraph totally nails it regarding this whole issue.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Have u seen his salary? £169 k. No wonder the fares are so high.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Have u seen his salary? £169 k. No wonder the fares are so high.

I don't think they are.

[beensaidbefore]

For example,,,,



Only? Surely not!



Of course it is, what better way to focus the minds of those around the negotiating table.



It would appear you are incorrect. It can be seen from here and other platforms as well as speaking face to face with bus users that members of the public do seem aware that there is a toxic management within the company and although there will be a massive inconvenience there is an element of sympathy and support for the drivers. That's not to say everyone is in support,,,,


How would you suggest I get from oxgangs to leith? Once upon a time there were alternatives, but those were priced out the gane by lrt a long time ago.

Walking through to Buckstone to catch the single decker coming from the borders would be a complete waste of time. They would be full long before they even got there.

Realistically I would need to walk to Princes Street and try and get on a tram, then walk from from Broughton St down to Leith.

Hope it's not raining.

[beensaidbefore]

I've yet to speak to anyone that isn't sympathising with the drivers, good luck to them, they provide a highly efficient service.

I think people may become a bit less sympathetic if they've also got to give up a day's wage cos they can't get to work. :greengrin

[speedy_gonzales]

How would you suggest I get from oxgangs to leith?
I'm confident if the strike goes ahead there will be a limited (but busy) service. I may be wrong but I think Airlink services are unaffected so you could jump on a 400 and either walk or utilise another bus service from Fort Kinnaird or head west, jump on a tram at Sighthill then walk down Leith Walk.

I'm not suggesting it's going to be easy but living & working within the city limits should never be impossible,,,,

[beensaidbefore]

I'm confident if the strike goes ahead there will be a limited (but busy) service. I may be wrong but I think Airlink services are unaffected so you could jump on a 400 and either walk or utilise another bus service from Fort Kinnaird or head west, jump on a tram at Sighthill then walk down Leith Walk.

I'm not suggesting it's going to be easy but living & working within the city limits should never be impossible,,,,

I will need to check the Airlink bus. I thought that would have been off too. Cheers for the heads up. As you say still a pain, but better than walking.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I think people may become a bit less sympathetic if they've also got to give up a day's wage cos they can't get to work. :greengrin

I'm not sure what your post means, have I only spoke to jobless people?

[Weegreenman]

Neither have I, but the BBC managed to find the only two people in Edinburgh who criticised them, on last night's news. As well as letting Richard Hall take the whole issue on his shoulders, "I am trying to improve the bus service", or words to that effect. Not, "we", or "the company", but "I".

The guy looks seriously out of his depth, and has probably found that running mass transit in a large city is not the same thing as making sure there are four buses a day between Campbelltown and Lochgilphead, as he did at West Coast Motors.

People who have risen too far tend to concentrate on the petty things like whether ties need to be worn in summer, instead of tackling the big issues like equipping the fleet with contactless.


From what hat I understand, he’s made a boo boo with the contactless. Apparently you can only purchase £1.70 single ticket on one card only. You can’t buy a family day ticket. Embarrassing for a city that has one of the biggest international festivals in the world.

[Fife-Hibee]

Your involvement in this thread reads like a total car crash and your position is the same as a drunk driver, swerving about all over the place unsure of what line to take.

You probably could have said something like; "there are two sides to every story, so I won't be forming an opinion until I'm satisfied I know enough of the detail" and left it at that. Unfortunately, you're so intent on arguing and noising people up that you'll find a way to try and justify a position that's contradictory to what the majority of others have said, then express that position in an aggressive/patronising/dismissive way.

Of course, when the subject matter is subjective, everyone is entitled to an opinion. However, as other posters have noted on this thread and others, you carry on this pattern of being contrary until you're caught out on something factual and someone proves you to be wrong, which you then refuse to acknowledge and simply avoid the thread for a few days.

You are the Donald Trump of Hibs.net.

You say this:

you're so intent on arguing and noising people up
Then you say something provoking like this:

You are the Donald Trump of Hibs.net.

Where have I even taken a side on this thread? :confused: I'm simply offering an alternative for people to get their heads around. Nobody has to agree with it. I'm not even suggesting that I agree with it. But for the purpose of balance i'm putting it out there and I couldn't care less if you don't like it.

[marinello59]

So what exactly are they striking for? Who has been bullied? Because by the sounds of it, the people who were bullied (on social media) have taken action against the bullies and now the bullies are the ones going on strike? :confused:

Looks like you have clearly taken a side there.




Really?

Seems like some people thought they could run off at the mouth on the world wide web and not be pulled up for it. They do realize this is 2019?

Looks like you have taken a side here as well.


Which is the same as any other line of work where the employees never really get much of a chance to establish much of a working relationship with their managers.

If you're an employee for a company where you're rarely ever around the vicinity of the manager and you actively stick the boot into them publicly over the internet using a social media platform that clearly identifies who you are. Then you're asking to be sacked.

I have no sympathy for anybody who is daft enough to do that.

You have definitely taken a side here


This doesn't just apply to bus drivers. I've heard of black cab taxi drivers being reported for similar things. There are some very strict policies in place and regardless of what your personal opinion of those policies are, the workers know what the policies are and that they must be adhered to at all times.

If an employee wants to take the risk by breaking company policy because they think the policy is stupid or for whatever other reason, then they always run the risk of being fired and have to take responsibility for their own actions when it happens.

I think we can see which side you are on with this one as well.



Many people around the outskirts of the city only have lothian routes to rely on. The only "alternative" is forking out taxi fares. Extortionate if you're working a minimum wage job somewhere around the city centre. Let's not kid on this isn't going to be a major complication for a sizable amount of people.

Unless they get clear on what exactly it is they're trying to achieve through strike action, they're not going to build up much public sympathy.

Drivers causing disruption by their actions? Looks like you have decided which side you are on here as well.




Where have I even taken a side on this thread? :confused: I'm simply offering an alternative for people to get their heads around. Nobody has to agree with it. I'm not even suggesting that I agree with it. But for the purpose of balance i'm putting it out there and I couldn't care less if you don't like it.

And the answer to your question is...............................................

[Fife-Hibee]

Looks like you have clearly taken a side there.


Looks like you have taken a side here as well.
You have definitely taken a side here
I think we can see which side you are on with this one as well.
Drivers causing disruption by their actions? Looks like you have decided which side you are on here as well.

And the answer to your question is...............................................

Not taking sides though. My points are pretty much impartial. The drivers are being treated in a way that they would be in almost any other line of work. You can't rubbish a manager that you don't have much of an established relationship with over the internet and expect not to be pulled up for it when somebody reports that information to him/her.

I've asked repeatedly on this thread what the drivers are actually aiming to accomplish through this strike action and nobody seems to know. Despite siding with them over the issue.

[makaveli1875]

Not taking sides though. My points are pretty much impartial. The drivers are being treated in a way that they would be in almost any other line of work. You can't rubbish a manager that you don't have much of an established relationship with over the internet and expect not to be pulled up for it when somebody reports that information to him/her.

I've asked repeatedly on this thread what the drivers are actually aiming to accomplish through this strike action and nobody seems to know. Despite siding with them over the issue.

The drivers are trying to show the bosses that if they treat them like **** this will be the consequences, no buses on the road. Do you think theyve all went on strike over 1 incident? I thought you were the all seeing eye Fifey, you have a conspiracy theory for everything but in this case your blaming the little guys on the front line.

[Danderhall Hibs]

The drivers are trying to show the bosses that if they treat them like **** this will be the consequences, no buses on the road. Do you think theyve all went on strike over 1 incident? I thought you were the all seeing eye Fifey, you have a conspiracy theory for everything but in this case your blaming the little guys on the front line.

They’re going on a continuous strike though? So how will not being at work allow the boss(es) to show they’ve changed their ways?

[danhibees1875]

I've asked repeatedly on this thread what the drivers are actually aiming to accomplish through this strike action and nobody seems to know. Despite siding with them over the issue.

I think this is one of the problems we face in the modern era, everyone expects to know everything right away.

Unless there's an LRT bus driver on .net willing to share then I don't know why this thread would provide the answers to your questions. :dunno:

It has came out that the problems go beyond money and are to do with a bullying culture. I'm sure the drivers will have communicated what they want changed to the appropriate people, there's no reason for it to be public knowledge.

Anyway, a bus strike at the start of the festivals sounds like it could be chaotic. I hope it's resolved relatively quickly and their working conditions improve to the standard they should be. The buses in Edinburgh are brilliant I think, the drivers generally do a good job operating them and from what I can see the bosses seem to be a good job making the service tick from the top.

[Since90+2]

They’re going on a continuous strike though? So how will not being at work allow the boss(es) to show they’ve changed their ways?

Most bus drivers won't be in a financial position to take more than a couple of days unpaid due to striking. If they do strike on Friday I would imagine it won't last very long.

[Cataplana]

From what hat I understand, he’s made a boo boo with the contactless. Apparently you can only purchase £1.70 single ticket on one card only. You can’t buy a family day ticket. Embarrassing for a city that has one of the biggest international festivals in the world.

I didn't realise that. According to the EEN, or Pravda as I prefer to call it, the system would cap your fares once you reached a daily maximum. They were trying to make out, as they always do, that it was the same as living in London.

In London, you register your card with an account, and you get a daily breakdown of how it was used. I'm not sure if family tickets can be used with the card, but I would have thought it should be possible.

The archaic system of payment on the Lothian buses is becoming something of an embarrassment, and must cause challenges during the tourist season. Time for the board to start asking the CEO what exactly he has achieved during his time here, other than pissing staff and customers off.

[Danderhall Hibs]

I think this is one of the problems we face in the modern era, everyone expects to know everything right away.

Unless there's an LRT bus driver on .net willing to share then I don't know why this thread would provide the answers to your questions. :dunno:

It has came out that the problems go beyond money and are to do with a bullying culture. I'm sure the drivers will have communicated what they want changed to the appropriate people, there's no reason for it to be public knowledge.

Anyway, a bus strike at the start of the festivals sounds like it could be chaotic. I hope it's resolved relatively quickly and their working conditions improve to the standard they should be. The buses in Edinburgh are brilliant I think, the drivers generally do a good job operating them and from what I can see the bosses seem to be a good job making the service tick from the top.

Normally “demands” are stated publicly - that way they can get the public on their side.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Most bus drivers won't be in a financial position to take more than a couple of days unpaid due to striking. If they do strike on Friday I would imagine it won't last very long.

Agreed but these strikes are normally targeted for 1 day maximum disruption - these guys are just saying continuous so unless something changes (whatever it is they want) and they have another vote, they’re off until it’s sorted.

[McD]

Not taking sides though. My points are pretty much impartial. The drivers are being treated in a way that they would be in almost any other line of work. You can't rubbish a manager that you don't have much of an established relationship with over the internet and expect not to be pulled up for it when somebody reports that information to him/her.

I've asked repeatedly on this thread what the drivers are actually aiming to accomplish through this strike action and nobody seems to know. Despite siding with them over the issue.



Your points aren’t impartial. You have repeatedly (as demonstrated by M59) adopted the position of of the management, and not once have you adopted the position of the drivers. At every turn you have questioned and criticised the actions of the drivers, and refused to accept any criticism of the management, despite multiple examples provided.

[danhibees1875]

Normally “demands” are stated publicly - that way they can get the public on their side.

To be honest, I can't remember ever paying much attention to strike action before. I remember the teachers were pretty vocal about their % pay increase. I guess that's an easier message to get across rather than a culture shift in the way upper management treat staff.

If it is common practice to publicise demands of all kinds and the drivers haven't done so and aren't interested in just more money then a resolution doesn't seem all that likely anytime soon!

Hopefully it's not raining on Friday...

[Danderhall Hibs]

To be honest, I can't remember ever paying much attention to strike action before. I remember the teachers were pretty vocal about their % pay increase. I guess that's an easier message to get across rather than a culture shift in the way upper management treat staff.

If it is common practice to publicise demands of all kinds and the drivers haven't done so and aren't interested in just more money then a resolution doesn't seem all that likely anytime soon!

Hopefully it's not raining on Friday...

That’s true - usually it’s pay or t&c (pensions etc) which is easier to debate. This one seems different but I’d still have thought they’d have a list of wants - seems their union don’t get it either as they’ve twice recommended they accept the pay increase and the members have gone against them.

[Hibbyradge]

I'm with Fife on this.

F*** the workers.

[Fife-Hibee]

Your points aren’t impartial. You have repeatedly (as demonstrated by M59) adopted the position of of the management, and not once have you adopted the position of the drivers. At every turn you have questioned and criticised the actions of the drivers, and refused to accept any criticism of the management, despite multiple examples provided.

I'm simply adding balance. Sure, it may make me the odd one out on the thread. But I don't care. You're all quick to jump onto the "poor employee" stereotype without being able to present any real facts surrounding the situation.

I'm offering people the opportunity to consider that it may not all be a simple case of poor worker vs big evil management. I'm sure the situation is far more complicated than what is being presented here.

If you don't care about detail and just want to jump on a bandwagon, then that's your right to do so. But at least be honest about it.

[Fife-Hibee]

The drivers are trying to show the bosses that if they treat them like **** this will be the consequences, no buses on the road. Do you think theyve all went on strike over 1 incident? I thought you were the all seeing eye Fifey, you have a conspiracy theory for everything but in this case your blaming the little guys on the front line.

How do you know they're being "treated like ****"? Are you a bus driver? Do you have first hand experience? Can you trust the opinions of bus drivers to be completely impartial and unbiased in their claims?

Who knows. If you actually knew the details of the situation you'd perhaps come to the conclusion that they're not really being bullied at all and are making a big fuss over things that everybody in the working sector has to deal with.

But we don't know do we? Because the details aren't there. You're just assuming that they're given an unfair time based on nothing more than their own personal claims that they are.

[makaveli1875]

I'm simply adding balance. Sure, it may make me the odd one out on the thread. But I don't care. You're all quick to jump onto the "poor employee" stereotype without being able to present any real facts surrounding the situation.

I'm offering people the opportunity to consider that it may not all be a simple case of poor worker vs big evil management. I'm sure the situation is far more complicated than what is being presented here.

If you don't care about detail and just want to jump on a bandwagon, then that's your right to do so. But at least be honest about it.

Odd to see you take the side of the evil oppressor though for all the greeting you do about big evil Westminster and the poor oppressed Scots .

[Fife-Hibee]

Odd to see you take the side of the evil oppressor though for all the greeting you do about big evil Westminster and the poor oppressed Scots .

The "evil oppressor". :faf:

Once again, just believing whatever you want to believe without any details or fact to back up your assertion.

My disdain for Westminster is (believe it or not) based on real actual events that have unfolded right in front of our eyes. Not basic claims with no details surrounding the situations.

[lord bunberry]

How do you know they're being "treated like ****"? Are you a bus driver? Do you have first hand experience? Can you trust the opinions of bus drivers to be completely impartial and unbiased in their claims?

Who knows. If you actually knew the details of the situation you'd perhaps come to the conclusion that they're not really being bullied at all and are making a big fuss over things that everybody in the working sector has to deal with.

But we don't know do we? Because the details aren't there. You're just assuming that they're given an unfair time based on nothing more than their own personal claims that they are.
Are you a manager at Lothian Buses? :greengrin

[Fife-Hibee]

Are you a manager at Lothian Buses? :greengrin

No, i'm just somebody who likes details before making self righteous assumptions. It's all too easy to side with the poor wee employee when there's no effort to gather all of the information to form a well informed opinion.

The bus drivers may well be getting treated poorly. But so far, all we've had are claims and people making assumptions around those claims. We also haven't heard from the managements perspective either, which could well shed a whole different light onto the situation.

I just think it would be sensible to withhold the pitchforks until we know exactly what the deal is here. Does that not seem like the more mature, grown up thing to do?

[Hibbyradge]

No, i'm just somebody who likes details before making self righteous assumptions.

:faf: :faf: :faf:

[lord bunberry]

No, i'm just somebody who likes details before making self righteous assumptions. It's all too easy to side with the poor wee employee when there's no effort to gather all of the information to form a well informed opinion.

The bus drivers may well be getting treated poorly. But so far, all we've had are claims and people making assumptions around those claims. We also haven't heard from the managements perspective either, which could well shed a whole different light onto the situation.

I just think it would be sensible to withhold the pitchforks until we know exactly what the deal is here. Does that not seem like the more mature, grown up thing to do?
I hope the strike is long and bitter, I might get a wee winter break in the sun. :greengrin

[Lester B]

No, i'm just somebody who likes details before making self righteous assumptions.

Wow.

[WeeRussell]

How do you know they're being "treated like ****"? Are you a bus driver? Do you have first hand experience? Can you trust the opinions of bus drivers to be completely impartial and unbiased in their claims?

Who knows. If you actually knew the details of the situation you'd perhaps come to the conclusion that they're not really being bullied at all and are making a big fuss over things that everybody in the working sector has to deal with.

But we don't know do we? Because the details aren't there. You're just assuming that they're given an unfair time based on nothing more than their own personal claims that they are.

But isn't 90%+ of the workforce's stance the best account or 'details' we're likely to obtain?

[Danderhall Hibs]

But isn't 90%+ of the workforce's stance the best account or 'details' we're likely to obtain?

It was 91% of the 63% of union members, so in reality we’ll below 90% of the workforce. According to Lothian buses it’s 693 of the workforce (there are 1709 union members and many more not in the union.)

[makaveli1875]

How do you know they're being "treated like ****"? Are you a bus driver? Do you have first hand experience? Can you trust the opinions of bus drivers to be completely impartial and unbiased in their claims?

Who knows. If you actually knew the details of the situation you'd perhaps come to the conclusion that they're not really being bullied at all and are making a big fuss over things that everybody in the working sector has to deal with.

But we don't know do we? Because the details aren't there. You're just assuming that they're given an unfair time based on nothing more than their own personal claims that they are.

Im not a bus driver myself so no 1st hand experience but I know a few mechanics and bus drivers at LRT and the picture they paint isn't great. I always assumed a bit of exaggeration, we all like a good moan about our employer after all but it would seem there is something in it after all.

[Hibbyradge]

It was 91% of the 63% of union members, so in reality we’ll below 90% of the workforce. According to Lothian buses it’s 693 of the workforce (there are 1709 union members and many more not in the union.)

603 of 1709 isn't 91% of 63%.

91% of 63% equates to 57.33% of the total union membership so someone is telling porkies.

Probably the workers. (Just adding balance).

[WeeRussell]

It was 91% of the 63% of union members, so in reality we’ll below 90% of the workforce. According to Lothian buses it’s 693 of the workforce (there are 1709 union members and many more not in the union.)

ah - makes sense

[Lester B]

It was 91% of the 63% of union members, so in reality we’ll below 90% of the workforce. According to Lothian buses it’s 693 of the workforce (there are 1709 union members and many more not in the union.)

The turnout was 63% and of those 91% voted in favour of strike action. As a trade union full timer, not for Unite, I'd be delighted with that turnout and majority. Unite's press release said they have 1700 members approximately eligible to strike as part of the bargaining unit. By my sums 963 voted for the action therefore but all 1700 can take part in any strike

[Hibbyradge]

603 might be the number of union members who didn't vote or maybe the number of non union members, or maybe the number of union members who didn't vote combined with non union members.

So many numbers and percentages, it's an easy mistake for the benevolent and upstanding management to make.

[Future17]

Where have I even taken a side on this thread? :confused: I'm simply offering an alternative for people to get their heads around. Nobody has to agree with it. I'm not even suggesting that I agree with it. But for the purpose of balance i'm putting it out there and I couldn't care less if you don't like it.

One of your initial posts on this thread stated, “perhaps it’s more sensible to know the actual details before jumping on the bandwagon?” You later added that “nobody really knows any of the details” behind the proposed strike and stated you hadn't heard any examples of unjust reprimands from managers.

However, you were then provided with such examples and your position became that it didn't matter whether a policy was unjust, an employee would have to accept responsibility for being sacked if they didn't adhere to that policy. You followed that up by saying “the drivers are being treated in a way that they would be in almost any other line of work”.

Your claim to be playing some kind of devil’s advocate on this thread, rather than just trying to get a reaction from other posters, would be a lot more credible if you could maintain a consistent position in that regard.

[Future17]

603 might be the number of union members who didn't vote or maybe the number of non union members, or maybe the number of union members who didn't vote combined with non union members.

So many numbers and percentages, it's an easy mistake for the benevolent and upstanding management to make.

Nice edit. :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

Nice edit. :greengrin

Aye, I don't have my reading glasses on so I misunderstood the previous post. 🤓

[Lester B]

Aye, I don't have my reading glasses on so I misunderstood the previous post. 🤓

Have you got them on now. I could recommend a good book :wink:

[Future17]

Aye, I don't have my reading glasses on so I misunderstood the previous post. 🤓

Sorry, I actually thought you'd edited your prior post to change the last line, but I see it's still there. :-)

[Hibbyradge]

Sorry, I actually thought you'd edited your prior post to change the last line, but I see it's still there. :-)

Ha ha I actually wasn't sure what you were referring to, but I make so many mistakes, I just accepted your reprimand.

I am an innocent man after all! :flag:

[Lester B]

Ha ha I actually wasn't sure what you were referring to, but I make so many mistakes, I just accepted your reprimand.

I am an innocent man after all! :flag:

Well some say you are unkind but you are being as nice as you can :wink:

[Hibbyradge]

Well some say you are unkind but you are being as nice as you can :wink:

Got a light? :greengrin

[Smartie]

I'm with Fife.

It isn't healthy to assume that either the drivers or management are at fault without knowing more facts.

With the benefit of further information, either situation could be the case.

We don't know much, other than a few anecdotes shared on here.

[McD]

I'm simply adding balance. Sure, it may make me the odd one out on the thread. But I don't care. You're all quick to jump onto the "poor employee" stereotype without being able to present any real facts surrounding the situation.

I'm offering people the opportunity to consider that it may not all be a simple case of poor worker vs big evil management. I'm sure the situation is far more complicated than what is being presented here.

If you don't care about detail and just want to jump on a bandwagon, then that's your right to do so. But at least be honest about it.


Yes, let’s focus on detail for a moment, since you are keen to do so. In detail, can you show me where I’ve indicated support for the drivers or management on this thread. You know, since you’ve just accused me of jumping on a bandwagon and being dishonest about it.


Also, adding balance isn’t the same as being impartial. your posts have demonstrated the opposite of impartiality, as M59 demonstrated earlier. If you’d said in the first place you were adding balance, then no one would have challenged what you’ve said, but you have claimed impartiality, which is definitely not what you’ve exhibited.

[Cataplana]

I'm simply adding balance. Sure, it may make me the odd one out on the thread. But I don't care. You're all quick to jump onto the "poor employee" stereotype without being able to present any real facts surrounding the situation.

I'm offering people the opportunity to consider that it may not all be a simple case of poor worker vs big evil management. I'm sure the situation is far more complicated than what is being presented here.

If you don't care about detail and just want to jump on a bandwagon, then that's your right to do so. But at least be honest about it.

Firstly, people have been presenting facts on the situation, often from experience as former drivers, or based on what friends have told them. You rightly point out the perils of any employee posting on social media, so hardly surprising that you aren't getting a flood of current employees coming on to provide facts.

I'd like to thank you for your offer to consider alternative explanations to the one I didn't offer. Thanks, but as you don't provide any facts or examples to back that point up, I am no closer to the point of view you would like me to take. Can you possibly fill in the missing parts of the picture?

I am somebody that likes detail, and I have to say that you just cast around with empty phrases that sound like you are maybe making an argument, when in fact all you are doing is saying there may be an argument to be had.

Perhaps if you knew the background to how the current management structure at LRT was developed, you might start to appreciate that it is entirely possible that a bunch of tossers are currently running the company.

The previous board were ousted due to political machinations by a tram supporting cabal on the council, led by the discredited former provost Lesley Hinds. The previous management had gained the respect of their drivers, and the move to empty them out when they were doing a great job (Britain's Best Bus Company) was never going to be popular.

The service has declined since their arrival, with popular routes disappearing and being replaced by airport services instead. Drivers are disciplined for the most petty breaches of policy, meanwhile the management can breach the same policies with impunity.

I suspect you are something a wind up merchant, as you often appear to take both sides in an argument, frequently contradicting yourself in the space of a couple of posts. I would welcome balance on this thread, but don't kid yourself you are providing it.

[Cataplana]

I'm with Fife.

It isn't healthy to assume that either the drivers or management are at fault without knowing more facts.

With the benefit of further information, either situation could be the case.

We don't know much, other than a few anecdotes shared on here.

Careful Now!

[beensaidbefore]

I'm not sure what your post means, have I only spoke to jobless people?

The post you replied to said people were willing to give up a day's wageto make a stand. You commented that everyone you had spoke to had sympathy with the strikers. I figured that opinion may change if they are forced to take a day off from work because they had no means of getting there.

I have no idea who you canvassed, but I can think of a few people who don't get paid unless they attend work. Makes life hell of a difficult for carers etc who may need to get to multiple locations throughout the day and rely on the bus to get them there.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

The post you replied to said people were willing to give up a day's wageto make a stand. You commented that everyone you had spoke to had sympathy with the strikers. I figured that opinion may change if they are forced to take a day off from work because they had no means of getting there.

I can only imagine they would've considered that before voicing an opinion.

[Jack]

I'm simply adding balance. Sure, it may make me the odd one out on the thread. But I don't care. You're all quick to jump onto the "poor employee" stereotype without being able to present any real facts surrounding the situation.

I'm offering people the opportunity to consider that it may not all be a simple case of poor worker vs big evil management. I'm sure the situation is far more complicated than what is being presented here.

If you don't care about detail and just want to jump on a bandwagon, then that's your right to do so. But at least be honest about it.


In my opinion you're one of the most unbalanced posters on this site.



Not taking sides though. My points are pretty much impartial. The drivers are being treated in a way that they would be in almost any other line of work. You can't rubbish a manager that you don't have much of an established relationship with over the internet and expect not to be pulled up for it when somebody reports that information to him/her.

I've asked repeatedly on this thread what the drivers are actually aiming to accomplish through this strike action and nobody seems to know. Despite siding with them over the issue.
I know people who work there. There's lots of examples of really dodgy goings on. Do you think it would be wise given the current culture at Lothian and given someone has already been sacked for stuff online to come on here and give details?

[Fife-Hibee]

I know people who work there. There's lots of examples of really dodgy goings on. Do you think it would be wise given the current culture at Lothian and given someone has already been sacked for stuff online to come on here and give details?



In my opinion you're one of the most unbalanced posters on this site.

Still not getting the details. :rolleyes:

The "I ken somebody who once said this about that" argument is hardly convincing.

[danhibees1875]

Still not getting the details. :rolleyes:

The "I ken somebody who once said this about that" argument is hardly convincing.

You won't get your details. On the balance of play do you not think it's more likely than not at this point though? Or do you think they're just going on strike for a laugh?

"The weather's nice this Friday, let's say there's a bad bullying culture here and just get down the beach. Which bus is to to Portobello?"

[we are hibs]

I see they are drawing up plans to bring in drivers from elsewhere according to the evening news.

[Fife-Hibee]

You won't get your details. On the balance of play do you not think it's more likely than not at this point though? Or do you think they're just going on strike for a laugh?

"The weather's nice this Friday, let's say there's a bad bullying culture here and just get down the beach. Which bus is to to Portobello?"

They may well feel bullied. But "feeling" bullied and actually being bullied as it's defined in law are 2 different things. There's no evidence to suggest that they're given any more of a hard time than employees in other fields of work.

So far i've heard of one sacking. Something I believe would have happened in almost any other line of work had the same situation occured.

Being told to wear ties and clothing that are representative of the company they work for? Those poor poor souls.

[danhibees1875]

They may well feel bullied. But "feeling" bullied and actually being bullied as it's defined in law are 2 different things. There's no evidence to suggest that they're given any more of a hard time than employees in other fields of work.

So far i've heard of one sacking. Something I believe would have happened in almost any other line of work had the same situation occured.

Being told to wear ties and clothing that are representative of the company they work for? Those poor poor souls.

I don't see why they'd go on strike over nothing though. They're not making loads of money, they'll be quite reliant on their income and yet a very high majority of them have decided to go on strike. That surely shows there's something that's quite wrong going on.

That's "evidence which suggests" they're being given a harder time than other people in other jobs.

Out of interest, do you have something against bus drivers?

[Fife-Hibee]

I don't see why they'd go on strike over nothing though. They're not making loads of money, they'll be quite reliant on their income and yet a very high majority of them have decided to go on strike. That surely shows there's something that's quite wrong going on.

That's "evidence which suggests" they're being given a harder time than other people in other jobs.

Out of interest, do you have something against bus drivers?

If they have a reason for this, then let it be known to the public. Surely people who rely on bus services to get around have a right to know why that won't be an option for them due to this strike?

I have nothing against bus drivers personally. I do however realize that they're not all wonderful people. Some of them are complete twats. Which can be said about employees in every different sector.

[Hibbyradge]

:troll:

[Hibrandenburg]

Let's be honest, a strike would be useless if it didn't cause inconvenience. Maybe folks will now reflect on the excellent service these guys provide.

[Fife-Hibee]

Let's be honest, a strike would be useless if it didn't cause inconvenience. Maybe folks will now reflect on the excellent service these guys provide.

But fundamentally useless when it causes an inconvenience to people who have no idea what the strike is even for or trying to achieve.

If you want to get the public on side with a strike, you've got to be transparent with them about it. A strike without explaination will have the opposite effect.

[danhibees1875]

If they have a reason for this, then let it be known to the public. Surely people who rely on bus services to get around have a right to know why that won't be an option for them due to this strike?

I have nothing against bus drivers personally. I do however realize that they're not all wonderful people. Some of them are complete twats. Which can be said about employees in every different sector.

There's no rule that says they have to let the public know. It would be nice to know out of nosiness I agree, but I don't see how it makes any difference to you or I. :dunno:

I'd be confident that there's enough internal discussion and those that need to know what's happening do know. If it's not as simple as wanting a "5% pay increase" then they've maybe decided to just not bother publicising the issues/wants incase it leads to confusion and crossed messages which turn the public against them.

[Hibrandenburg]

But fundamentally useless when it causes an inconvenience to people who have no idea what the strike is even for or trying to achieve.

If you want to get the public on side with a strike, you've got to be transparent with them about it. A strike without explaination will have the opposite effect.

I don't even live in Edinburgh but I know what it's about. :confused:

[Fife-Hibee]

There's no rule that says they have to let the public know. It would be nice to know out of nosiness I agree, but I don't see how it makes any difference to you or I. :dunno:

I'd be confident that there's enough internal discussion and those that need to know what's happening do know. If it's not as simple as wanting a "5% pay increase" then they've maybe decided to just not bother publicising the issues/wants incase it leads to confusion and crossed messages which turn the public against them.

Well surely they would have some sort of body or representative leading the strike. So confusion and crossed messages shouldn't be an issue. They could release an official statement. They don't have to go hugely in depth. Just give the public something.

Holding a strike shrouded in secrecy can only work in favour of the management they're stiking against.

[Fife-Hibee]

I don't even live in Edinburgh but I know what it's about. :confused:

What is it about? Bullying? There's been no real actual examples provided of this apparent bullying. So how can we accurately determine whether the claim of bullying is even justified or not? :confused:

[Hibrandenburg]

What is it about? Bullying? There's been no real actual examples provided of this apparent bullying. So how can we accurately determine whether the claim of bullying is even justified or not? :confused:

So you want details about what could be an international disciplinary matter? The information is out there but the company and union are correct not to openly discuss an on going investigation.

[Cataplana]

Can I be the first to say that although the management are going to hire scab drivers, we can't be certain that this is the case, and should consider that there may be other explanations?

At the same time we should examine our consciences closely as to whether or not we agree with the term scab, as neither the management, or the union, or the public has appeared in print to say exactly what a scab is. There could be other explanations for this so called scab activity, and we shouldn't just jump on the bandwagon based on what we have been told a scab is all of our lives.

For all we know, the limited number of people we have spoken to since birth, may all actually be wrong, and that the management are perfectly entitled to bring in alternative solutions to their drivers withdrawing their labour in this reckless, foolhardy and sociopathic manner. If anybody fancies it wouldn't be unreasonable to go round to their houses, and throw bricks at the window, or worse.

I'm not taking sides in this at all.

[danhibees1875]

Well surely they would have some sort of body or representative leading the strike. So confusion and crossed messages shouldn't be an issue. They could release an official statement. They don't have to go hugely in depth. Just give the public something.

Holding a strike shrouded in secrecy can only work in favour of the management they're stiking against.

I think they have done that.

"Drivers threatened strike action over what they claim is "hostile" and "bullying" management at Lothian buses - as well as poor workplace relations"

That's the second paragraph from the first article you get when you Google "Lothian buses strike".

That's a quick summary for the public for the reasons they're striking. If you read a bit further then you see that it's not financially motivated as they reject a pay increase which backs that up.

So we know they're striking as a result of having a poor relationship with management that has led to a hostile environment with instances of bullying. I don't know why you'd expect to know more on the matter.

[Lester B]

So you want details about what could be an international disciplinary matter? The information is out there but the company and union are correct not to openly discuss an on going investigation.

Precisely! Beat me to it!

[Lester B]

Well surely they would have some sort of body or representative leading the strike. So confusion and crossed messages shouldn't be an issue. They could release an official statement. They don't have to go hugely in depth. Just give the public something.

Holding a strike shrouded in secrecy can only work in favour of the management they're stiking against.

This answers all of your increasingly ridiculous grasping attempts at wilful contrarianism. For this post at least

https://unitetheunion.org/news-events/news/2019/june/strike-action-mandate-at-lothian-buses-as-imminent-talks-set-to-take-place/

I should really take Hibbyradge's advice and not feed the troll.

But I'm a full time union official and your absurd series of comments really riles me. You know nothing about this and are resistant to reasonable explanations from those who do. If I know nothing or little about a subject I either keep quiet or listen to those who have more knowledge or experience. You should do the same. But you don't. You want to appear at expert at every subject through continually asking questions already answered or playing some simplistic form of devil's advocate. I fear though that the more people who try to point this out, the more you are convinced that your points are right and valid. At some point in this thread you crossed the line from hubris to full blown narcissism.

People do not vote to take industrial action, with a high turnout and majority, for no reason. They lose pay and it creates a division between colleagues at work. Full detailed explanations of the issues concerned when parties are in dispute cannot and should not be aired in public.

[Hibbyradge]

This answers all of your increasingly ridiculous grasping attempts at wilful contrarianism. For this post at least

https://unitetheunion.org/news-events/news/2019/june/strike-action-mandate-at-lothian-buses-as-imminent-talks-set-to-take-place/

I should really take Hibbyradge's advice and not feed the troll.

But I'm a full time union official and your absurd series of comments really riles me. You know nothing about this and are resistant to reasonable explanations from those who do. If I know nothing or little about a subject I either keep quiet or listen to those who have more knowledge or experience. You should do the same. But you don't. You want to appear at expert at every subject through continually asking questions already answered or playing some simplistic form of devil's advocate. I fear though that the more people who try to point this out, the more you are convinced that your points are right and valid. At some point in this thread you crossed the line from hubris to full blown narcissism.

People do not vote to take industrial action, with a high turnout and majority, for no reason. They lose pay and it creates a division between colleagues at work. Full detailed explanations of the issues concerned when parties are in dispute cannot and should not be aired in public.

Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder with a long-term pattern of abnormal behavior characterised by exaggerated feelings of self-importance, excessive need for admiration, and a lack of empathy.

Donald Trump has this disorder.

Just saying.

[Cataplana]

This answers all of your increasingly ridiculous grasping attempts at wilful contrarianism. For this post at least

https://unitetheunion.org/news-events/news/2019/june/strike-action-mandate-at-lothian-buses-as-imminent-talks-set-to-take-place/

I should really take Hibbyradge's advice and not feed the troll.

But I'm a full time union official and your absurd series of comments really riles me. You know nothing about this and are resistant to reasonable explanations from those who do. If I know nothing or little about a subject I either keep quiet or listen to those who have more knowledge or experience. You should do the same. But you don't. You want to appear at expert at every subject through continually asking questions already answered or playing some simplistic form of devil's advocate. I fear though that the more people who try to point this out, the more you are convinced that your points are right and valid. At some point in this thread you crossed the line from hubris to full blown narcissism.

People do not vote to take industrial action, with a high turnout and majority, for no reason. They lose pay and it creates a division between colleagues at work. Full detailed explanations of the issues concerned when parties are in dispute cannot and should not be aired in public.

You should look on the bright side. Every time he raises one of his "points", it's shot down in flames.

Although he says he isn't taking sides, his every utterance digs the management into a deeper hole. You can't buy publicity like that.



Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder with a long-term pattern of abnormal behavior characterised by exaggerated feelings of self-importance, excessive need for admiration, and a lack of empathy.

Donald Trump has this disorder.

Just saying.

Is Donald Trump from Leven? Who knew?

[Danderhall Hibs]

This answers all of your increasingly ridiculous grasping attempts at wilful contrarianism. For this post at least

https://unitetheunion.org/news-events/news/2019/june/strike-action-mandate-at-lothian-buses-as-imminent-talks-set-to-take-place/

I should really take Hibbyradge's advice and not feed the troll.

But I'm a full time union official and your absurd series of comments really riles me. You know nothing about this and are resistant to reasonable explanations from those who do. If I know nothing or little about a subject I either keep quiet or listen to those who have more knowledge or experience. You should do the same. But you don't. You want to appear at expert at every subject through continually asking questions already answered or playing some simplistic form of devil's advocate. I fear though that the more people who try to point this out, the more you are convinced that your points are right and valid. At some point in this thread you crossed the line from hubris to full blown narcissism.

People do not vote to take industrial action, with a high turnout and majority, for no reason. They lose pay and it creates a division between colleagues at work. Full detailed explanations of the issues concerned when parties are in dispute cannot and should not be aired in public.

Do you know what the drivers demands are? We know they’re being bullied but not what they’re striking for - do they want someone sacked?

Surely as a full time union official you’d go into a negotiation with an outcome in mind?

[Fife-Hibee]

Do you know what the drivers demands are? We know they’re being bullied but not what they’re striking for - do they want someone sacked?

Surely as a full time union official you’d go into a negotiation with an outcome in mind?

Apparently that isn't important information. We've all to get behind the drivers and support their strike action with no understanding of what the aim of the strike action is supposed to be.

[Cataplana]

Do you know what the drivers demands are? We know they’re being bullied but not what they’re striking for - do they want someone sacked?


Surely as a full time union official you’d go into a negotiation with an outcome in mind?

I don't think it is best practice to reveal your objectives, and fall back positions to the other side before going into a negotiation. But, broadly they have outlined where they want to be in the statement below.



Apparently that isn't important information. We've all to get behind the drivers and support their strike action with no understanding of what the aim of the strike action is supposed to be.

They have made it clear what the strike is about.



The dispute stems from poor workplace relations and a hostile culture at Lothian Buses by management where procedural agreements have not been adhered to impacting directly on the terms and conditions of Unite’s membership. Previous talks in April at Acas broke down due to the failure by Lothian Buses management to seriously consider implementing remedial measures to improve the workplace culture.

Why are you deliberately ignoring the answers to questions you ask?

[Hibrandenburg]

Apparently that isn't important information. We've all to get behind the drivers and support their strike action with no understanding of what the aim of the strike action is supposed to be.

Nobody is saying it isn't important, it's just highly likely confidential at this point and rightly so. Also it would be absolute madness to divulge a negotiating strategy and desired outcome at the table, never mind making it public information.

[ronaldo7]

This answers all of your increasingly ridiculous grasping attempts at wilful contrarianism. For this post at least

https://unitetheunion.org/news-events/news/2019/june/strike-action-mandate-at-lothian-buses-as-imminent-talks-set-to-take-place/

I should really take Hibbyradge's advice and not feed the troll.

But I'm a full time union official and your absurd series of comments really riles me. You know nothing about this and are resistant to reasonable explanations from those who do. If I know nothing or little about a subject I either keep quiet or listen to those who have more knowledge or experience. You should do the same. But you don't. You want to appear at expert at every subject through continually asking questions already answered or playing some simplistic form of devil's advocate. I fear though that the more people who try to point this out, the more you are convinced that your points are right and valid. At some point in this thread you crossed the line from hubris to full blown narcissism.

People do not vote to take industrial action, with a high turnout and majority, for no reason. They lose pay and it creates a division between colleagues at work. Full detailed explanations of the issues concerned when parties are in dispute cannot and should not be aired in public.

He could always contact, Lyn Turner, for more information.

[Fife-Hibee]

They have made it clear what the strike is about.

Why are you deliberately ignoring the answers to questions you ask?

Because it doesn't answer the question. What are they trying to achieve with this strike action?

Statements like "poor workplace relations" and "hostile culture by management" doesn't really tell us anything without any proper context.

What are they doing that is deemed "hostile"? How do you improve "workplace relations" in a job where you're working on your own at least several hours everyday?

[Lester B]

I don't think it is best practice to reveal your objectives, and fall back positions to the other side before going into a negotiation. But, broadly they have outlined where they want to be in the statement below.




They have made it clear what the strike is about.



Why are you deliberately ignoring the answers to questions you ask?

:top marks Beaten to it and couldn't have put it better! :thumbsup:

[Lester B]

Because it doesn't answer the question. What are they trying to achieve with this strike action?

Statements like "poor workplace relations" and "hostile culture by management" doesn't really tell us anything without any proper context.

What are they doing that is deemed "hostile"? How do you improve "workplace relations" in a job where you're working on your own at least several hours everyday?

It does answer the question. You just don't like it. Or understand it.

What are they trying to achieve? They are asking management "to seriously consider implementing remedial measures to improve the workplace culture."

You want more info than is allowed by the very nature of workplace disputes. I've heard stuff from people wanting something along the lines of 'proper context' before. Invariably it's from someone who wants gossip or insider info. Not constructive.

Your final sentence is a new low in absurdity, even for you.

[Lester B]

He could always contact, Lyn Turner, for more information.

He could but I suspect she has more important things to do than deal with crank calls. Message boards are more forgiving

[Hibrandenburg]

Because it doesn't answer the question. What are they trying to achieve with this strike action?

Statements like "poor workplace relations" and "hostile culture by management" doesn't really tell us anything without any proper context.

What are they doing that is deemed "hostile"? How do you improve "workplace relations" in a job where you're working on your own at least several hours everyday?

It really isn't worth the effort answering your posts because you completely ignore any answer you get. Why do you feel entitled to get confidential information?

[Danderhall Hibs]

I don't think it is best practice to reveal your objectives, and fall back positions to the other side before going into a negotiation. But, broadly they have outlined where they want to be in the statement below.




They have made it clear what the strike is about.



Why are you deliberately ignoring the answers to questions you ask?

Cheers - that statement gives more clarity. Interesting that the union have missed the point as well by twice recommending their members accept the deal.

[Lester B]

Cheers - that statement gives more clarity. Interesting that the union have missed the point as well by twice recommending their members accept the deal.

I don't think they've necessarily missed the point, though they may have.

It can be a tactic to recommend a deal but to acknowledge after rejection of the deal, that feelings are running so high that the membership cannot accept the terms of the deal. The union then ballots at the request of the members within the bargaining unit and tries to use the ballot result to force the other side into serious consideration and/or discussion.

You'll hear a lot about strikes being announced and then cancelled after conciliation talks with ACAS. This I understand is the case in this dispute. It may yet not happen if talks can establish a way forward. Both sides are making the right noises in public about talking this out to avert the action and hopefully that's the case here

[Cataplana]

Because it doesn't answer the question. What are they trying to achieve with this strike action?

Statements like "poor workplace relations" and "hostile culture by management" doesn't really tell us anything without any proper context.

What are they doing that is deemed "hostile"? How do you improve "workplace relations" in a job where you're working on your own at least several hours everyday?

I think they tell us the union think relations should be improved, and that you as a (non) customer of LRT are being given the courtesy of a broad outline of why people are going on strike.

The fact that you haven't got the grace to recognise that and demand more information about what is essentially none of your business, is a matter for your definition of self respect.

I would imagine the workplace relations concern the relatii ship between the driver and their manager.

You are really transparent. Sad really.

[Speedy]

I wonder who will be manning this skeletal service.

Hell mend any drivers who cross a picket line. It wouldn’t be me anyway, not for all the tea in China.

Nothing wrong with going into work if you want to.

[Cataplana]

Nothing wrong with going into work if you want to.

Unless you want sent to Coventry for the rest of your days, scabbing is fine. Just ask John Martin.

[Speedy]

Unless you want sent to Coventry for the rest of your days, scabbing is fine. Just ask John Martin.

Let's hope a group concerned with bullying and toxic culture wouldn't resort to such actions.

[Cataplana]

Let's hope a group concerned with bullying and toxic culture wouldn't resort to such actions.

Let's also hope that members of the union respect the majority decision and uphold the principles of collective bargaining and action.

At the same time, let's also hope that non union members recognise that they too will benefit from the sacrifices of their colleagues, and are sensitive to the fact that their colleagues might not have much time for them later if they scab.

You have no right to bully somebody, but that doesn't mean you have to like them. Common sense, eh?

[Hibrandenburg]

Let's also hope that members of the union respect the majority decision and uphold the principles of collective bargaining and action.

At the same time, let's also hope that non union members recognise that they too will benefit from the sacrifices of their colleagues, and are sensitive to the fact that their colleagues might not have much time for them later if they scab.

You have no right to bully somebody, but that doesn't mean you have to like them. Common sense, eh?

Last time we called a strike we had 98% union membership. Two guys were scared to defy management and crossed the picket line. They were met by complete silence. 8 years on they're still in the company and now active union members. There's many ways to skin a cat.

[Scouse Hibee]

Let's also hope that members of the union respect the majority decision and uphold the principles of collective bargaining and action.

At the same time, let's also hope that non union members recognise that they too will benefit from the sacrifices of their colleagues, and are sensitive to the fact that their colleagues might not have much time for them later if they scab.

You have no right to bully somebody, but that doesn't mean you have to like them. Common sense, eh?

If you really can’t afford to lose the money then going to work is reasonable. Let’s hope anyone in that position is not bullied or intimidated into strike action.

[HappyAsHellas]

Worked for LRT for about 4 months in one of their garages. I have worked in many workshops, both at home and abroad and LRT is the hands down winner for the most obnoxious and divisive management style I have ever encountered. I would have expected them to have moved into more modern times concerning the way they run things, but maybe not. Maybe the drivers get run in a different style, I would certainly hope so.

[Cataplana]

If you really can’t afford to lose the money then going to work is reasonable. Let’s hope anyone in that position is not bullied or intimidated into strike action.

Hear hear, but bring part of a union, and the union votes to strike, it is not bullying but democracy.

Been on strike myself, our union was a small part of the workforce. I held no animosity to the rest who worked.

[lord bunberry]

I’ll be driving about shouting scab at anyone breaking the strike.

[Cataplana]

I’ll be driving about shouting scab at anyone breaking the strike.

Long live the free market

[beensaidbefore]

I can only imagine they would've considered that before voicing an opinion.

It was meant to be a lighthearted post, hence the smiley:aok:

[Scouse Hibee]

I’ll be driving about shouting scab at anyone breaking the strike.

I’ll be shouting “you profiteering bustards” at taxi drivers 😂

[Future17]

Maybe the drivers want more training on reading road signs:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-49166689

[lapsedhibee]

Maybe the drivers want more training on reading road signs:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-49166689

You're assuming that's the driver's fault but how do we know it wasn't mostly the bridge designer to blame?
Just trying to provide a bit of balance.

[Glory Lurker]

Is there any word on how the negotiations are going?

[Hibbyradge]

You're assuming that's the driver's fault but how do we know it wasn't mostly the bridge designer to blame?
Just trying to provide a bit of balance.

:hilarious

[McD]

You're assuming that's the driver's fault but how do we know it wasn't mostly the bridge designer to blame?
Just trying to provide a bit of balance.



:tee hee:

[Moulin Yarns]

I’ll be driving about shouting scab at anyone breaking the strike.

I might be looking for a lift from queen's Hall to Leith on Monday 12th at 10:30 pm 😉

[GlesgaeHibby]

You're assuming that's the driver's fault but how do we know it wasn't mostly the bridge designer to blame?
Just trying to provide a bit of balance.

10/10
Take a bow.

[lord bunberry]

I’ll be shouting “you profiteering bustards” at taxi drivers 😂
I won’t hear you, I’m planning on on making ear plugs out of £50 notes.

[southsider]

Nae buses ? Ma name is Walker.

[Lester B]

Strike now called off pending further ballot on improved offer

Expect another few pages of "yes but why?"

[Danderhall Hibs]

Strike now called off pending further ballot on improved offer

Expect another few pages of "yes but why?"

The union are recommending their members accept it - that’s the third time. Wonder why they’ve jumped the gun in suspending before going to the vote?

[Lester B]

The union are recommending their members accept it - that’s the third time. Wonder why they’ve jumped the gun in suspending before going to the vote?

Good question.

It looks better to suspend action particularly if there really is an improved offer. Otherwise people may quite reasonably ask why the union are continuing with industrial action when there's something new being offered. Of course we don't, and can't, know the full details of what that is.

I think it's a good sign so hopefully the action can be averted completely.

[BroxburnHibee]

Strike now called off pending further ballot on improved offer

Expect another few pages of "yes but why?"

Theres a surprise.

[lord bunberry]

Strike now called off pending further ballot on improved offer

Expect another few pages of "yes but why?"
Boooo :greengrin

[Weegreenman]

Strike now called off pending further ballot on improved offer

Expect another few pages of "yes but why?"


I have it on good authority that “persons” responsible for the bullying are now no longer in place. That’s as much as I can say. This and a few other little carrots have been offered. A ballot will take place next week on whether to accept or not.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Boooo :greengrin

You're getting the bird from LRT passengers, ya thought ye were loaded ******* 😁

[lord bunberry]

You're getting the bird from LRT passengers, ya thought ye were loaded ******* 😁

Back to bread and water for the poor hard up taxi drivers:greengrin

[stoneyburn hibs]

Back to bread and water for the poor hard up taxi drivers:greengrin

Park that taxi pre game mate and I'll buy you a pint.

[lord bunberry]

Park that taxi pre game mate and I'll buy you a pint.
Haha I need one after this devastating news :greengrin

[Scouse Hibee]

I have it on good authority that “persons” responsible for the bullying are now no longer in place. That’s as much as I can say. This and a few other little carrots have been offered. A ballot will take place next week on whether to accept or not.

So there WAS bullying by the management?

[Danderhall Hibs]

So there WAS bullying by the management?

And the demand was they were sacked? Wonder if they’ll withdraw the payrise offer now?

If true...

[Weegreenman]

So there WAS bullying by the management?

Yup! :agree:

[judas]

So what exactly are they striking for? Who has been bullied? Because by the sounds of it, the people who were bullied (on social media) have taken action against the bullies and now the bullies are the ones going on strike? :confused:

Beautifully illustrated.

The poor suspended bus drivers. Imagine not being able to target your boss through the World Wide Web and simply walk away from it.

It’s shocking really.

[lord bunberry]

Beautifully illustrated.

The poor suspended bus drivers. Imagine not being able to target your boss through the World Wide Web and simply walk away from it.

It’s shocking really.
It was a private WhatsApp group.

[Future17]

It was a private WhatsApp group.

Facebook I think. Closed group but nothing's private on social media.

[MSK]

Facebook I think. Closed group but nothing's private on social media.Im sure it was a closed group but someone in the group saved it and sent it to the guy in question who then took action against the guy who put it up.

[ronaldo7]

He could but I suspect she has more important things to do than deal with crank calls. Message boards are more forgiving

She?

I'm sure he'll not be pleased about that. 😆

[judas]

Facebook I think. Closed group but nothing's private on social media.

Correct

[Hibbyradge]

Correct

You accused the bus drivers of bullying.

Are they not allowed to talk privately about their work, their colleagues and their managers?

They may have been unwise to do so in a private FB group, but they were bullying no-one.

[danhibees1875]

You accused the bus drivers of bullying.

Are they not allowed to talk privately about their work, their colleagues and their managers?

They may have been unwise to do so in a private FB group, but they were bullying no-one.

Maybe you know more details than I do, but if there's a group of people in a company that have a "closed" group to talk badly about another member of the company then it sounds like it's bullying.

There's maybe an argument to be had over how bad the comment was, as well as how frequent it, or similar comments, was made. But these things are rarely one off incidents I would suspect and on the face of it it doesn't come across well for the employees involved.

Equally, I'm not one for people losing their jobs over little indiscretions. So regardless of what had been said/posted I think a warning and a reminder that what's put out on the internet tends to hang around, can be shared, and can come back to bite them.

[Hibbyradge]

Maybe you know more details than I do, but if there's a group of people in a company that have a "closed" group to talk badly about another member of the company then it sounds like it's bullying.



I don't know anymore than what's in the public domain, Dan, but there must be tens of thousands of closed groups where workers talk to each other.

Folk talking or complaining to each other in a private group isn't bullying unless they collectively do something against an individual. As I understand it, in this case, the only reason it came to light was because a group member copied a message to a manager.

I'm predisposed to take the side of employees rather than management, even though I was a manager myself, but I should really know better than to take sides in a dispute I know little about.

[danhibees1875]

I don't know anymore than what's in the public domain, Dan, but there must be tens of thousands of closed groups where workers talk to each other.

Folk talking or complaining to each other in a private group isn't bullying unless they collectively do something against an individual. As I understand it, in this case, the only reason it came to light was because a group member copied a message to a manager.

I'm predisposed to take the side of employees rather than management, even though I was a manager myself, but I should really know better than to take sides in a dispute I know little about.

I would imagine there are loads of similar groups. I'm in some from current and previous jobs to different extents (whole teams or mini cliques).

I joined my most recent team one last year, had there been a flow of negative comments against the CEO or any other employee (who has no access to it) then I would class that as a form of bullying. I don't think bullying has to be as direct as you put it against someone. It can equally be discreet. In many ways I'd rather someone openly criticised me than criticised me behind my back to everyone else and influenced their opinions on me through that group mentality.

I'd go back to the point I made where I'd rather such incidents were a lesson than a sackable offence so I think it could have been handled better. I wouldn't say I was trying to take management side over employee in this instance; just exploring a different possibility (trying to avoid the phrase "providing balance" at this point :greengrin ).

[Smartie]

If you're a manager or an owner you have to accept that you're going to be grumbled about behind your back from time to time. If it gets so out of hand that it undermines the healthy functioning of the business then you might have to act, in everyone's interests.

If you act on every little bit of criticism because your ego can't handle it, you are no leader and should be doing something else.

[Fife-Hibee]

You accused the bus drivers of bullying.

Are they not allowed to talk privately about their work, their colleagues and their managers?

They may have been unwise to do so in a private FB group, but they were bullying no-one.

It doesn't matter whether comments are targetted at the bus drivers or the upper management. Bullying is bullying. Just because you chose to take a side without knowing all of the details doesn't mean you can now claim that it wasn't bullying just because it came from the side you were initally trying to defend.

Perhaps you can also be grown up enough to apologize to me for claiming that I have some sort of mental handicap? Quite a claim to make about somebody you have never met and tantamount to the online bullying culture experienced by many.

[MSK]

It doesn't matter whether comments are targetted at the bus drivers or the upper management. Bullying is bullying. Just because you chose to take a side without knowing all of the details doesn't mean you can now claim that it wasn't bullying just because it came from the side you were initally trying to defend.

Perhaps you can also be grown up enough to apologize to me for claiming that I have some sort of mental handicap? Quite a claim to make about somebody you have never met and tantamount to the online bullying culture experienced by many.Im going on strike from hibs.net until hibbyradge is sacked, Im not bothered if Admins offer me a deal to stay...

[Hibbyradge]

It doesn't matter whether comments are targetted at the bus drivers or the upper management. Bullying is bullying. Just because you chose to take a side without knowing all of the details doesn't mean you can now claim that it wasn't bullying just because it came from the side you were initally trying to defend.

Perhaps you can also be grown up enough to apologize to me for claiming that I have some sort of mental handicap? Quite a claim to make about somebody you have never met and tantamount to the online bullying culture experienced by many.

Would you show me where I said that, please.

Oh, and I haven't taken a side.

[Future17]

Im sure it was a closed group but someone in the group saved it and sent it to the guy in question who then took action against the guy who put it up.

Yeah, as soon as you commit anything to writing online you lose control of it and risk it not remaining private. I've had to spend time in my work teaching this to a profession that should know better.

[MSK]

Yeah, as soon as you commit anything to writing online you lose control of it and risk it not remaining private. I've had to spend time in my work teaching this to a profession that should know better.I remember an ex colleague many years back left one hospital to join another, still within the same service provider but a different directorate. He bad mouthed a Charge Nurse on his own private facebook account, within a matter of minutes it was passed onto the current Charge, who wasn't on his friends list.

I saw it and told him to remove it but although he did he had sealed his fate, his new job didn't work out and when he tried to get back he was black balled. Despite many attempts to rejoin that directorate he was unsuccessful, even although they were short of specialised staff he never got a sniff.

Lessons to be learned I think.

[Hibbyradge]

Perhaps you can also be grown up enough to apologize to me for claiming that I have some sort of mental handicap? Quite a claim to make about somebody you have never met and tantamount to the online bullying culture experienced by many.

Have you been able to locate the post where I said that you had some sort of mental illness yet?

[Cataplana]

I remember an ex colleague many years back left one hospital to join another, still within the same service provider but a different directorate. He bad mouthed a Charge Nurse on his own private facebook account, within a matter of minutes it was passed onto the current Charge, who wasn't on his friends list.

I saw it and told him to remove it but although he did he had sealed his fate, his new job didn't work out and when he tried to get back he was black balled. Despite many attempts to rejoin that directorate he was unsuccessful, even although they were short of specialised staff he never got a sniff.

Lessons to be learned I think.

Remember being told by a union rep, that HR departments could effectively hack your social media accounts, and use what you say in a disciplinary.

Does anybody know if that's true, and why is it legal?

[Lester B]

Remember being told by a union rep, that HR departments could effectively hack your social media accounts, and use what you say in a disciplinary.

Does anybody know if that's true, and why is it legal?

They can't hack as such but even something said on a Facebook page marked as friends only can be used if a screenshot is taken. Social media is a minefield. Even private messages can be used if the recipient forwards it. Rule of thumb is that regardless of what you believe in terms of privacy, you are committing something to writing, so caution always advised.

Theoretically something on a message board such as this could be used although most people do have user names which bear little relation to their real names so tracing more difficult

Work emails is another story again.

[weecounty hibby]

I have used social media in a disciplinary situation. Person was off on the sick and colleagues who were left doing the heavy lifting while he was off reported that he was seen doing pretty physical activities on Facebook, stuff he said he was incapable off. The pictures were readily available and public so we used them during the hearing. Absolutely no issues with it, checked it out with the company lawyers before we did it. If it's in the public domain then it can be used against you. Facebook etc are used regularly when recruiting as well

[Jack]

How private is the private members forum on dotnet?

[Hibbyradge]

Perhaps you can also be grown up enough to apologize to me for claiming that I have some sort of mental handicap? Quite a claim to make about somebody you have never met and tantamount to the online bullying culture experienced by many.

Did you manage to summon enough maturity to find the post where I said you had "some sort of mental handicap" yet?

Should I continue to wait for you to do so or can I file your post under "S" again?

[Cataplana]

I have used social media in a disciplinary situation. Person was off on the sick and colleagues who were left doing the heavy lifting while he was off reported that he was seen doing pretty physical activities on Facebook, stuff he said he was incapable off. The pictures were readily available and public so we used them during the hearing. Absolutely no issues with it, checked it out with the company lawyers before we did it. If it's in the public domain then it can be used against you. Facebook etc are used regularly when recruiting as well

Public domain is fair game. I was more concerned that they might get into private conversations and wondered if that is possible.

Personally, I posted something about S. Arabia once. I was bombed out of Facebook, and when I got back in the sign on screen was in Arabic, and the last activity on my account was showing as Riyadh.

[Speedy]

How private is the private members forum on dotnet?

What private members forum? :greengrin

[BS44]

Industrial action off, drivers have voted to accept revised offer