NHS on the table

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/people/donald-trump-says-nhs-will-be-part-of-post-brexit-trade-deal-negotiations-1-4940572/amp?__twitter_impression=true

If this is true then it’s another reason to vote yes in indyref2.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sylar]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/people/donald-trump-says-nhs-will-be-part-of-post-brexit-trade-deal-negotiations-1-4940572/amp?__twitter_impression=true

If this is true then it’s another reason to vote yes in indyref2.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Says a visiting President, who also happened to say he's observed no protests against him, and that the one he did see was very small and politically orchestrated...

If you listen to ANY of his answers to the questions he was asked during the press conference, he was evasive, vague and non-commital on mostly everything.

This is not, and should not, be used as any sort of pro-Indy campaign point - particularly when the current health secretary already responded saying it'll never be part of any trade deal.

[cabbageandribs1875]

my late father predicted over 30 years ago our health service would go the same way as the yanks, it's maybe taking them a while but they're now getting their grubby mitts on parts of it, shame on you tory ****s

[Ozyhibby]

Says a visiting President, who also happened to say he's observed no protests against him, and that the one he did see was very small and politically orchestrated...

If you listen to ANY of his answers to the questions he was asked during the press conference, he was evasive, vague and non-commital on mostly everything.

This is not, and should not, be used as any sort of pro-Indy campaign point - particularly when the current health secretary already responded saying it'll never be part of any trade deal.

The main contenders for PM are all desperate to sign this trade deal. You really think they won’t sign away the NHS with Farage (who has admitted he wants it privatised) breathing down their necks?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Fife-Hibee]

Says a visiting President, who also happened to say he's observed no protests against him, and that the one he did see was very small and politically orchestrated...

If you listen to ANY of his answers to the questions he was asked during the press conference, he was evasive, vague and non-commital on mostly everything.

This is not, and should not, be used as any sort of pro-Indy campaign point - particularly when the current health secretary already responded saying it'll never be part of any trade deal.

The "current" health secretary.

Well that's a relief. It's not like it will ever be anyone else.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190604/3d561a3d8b98c8f4729e4f431e4d0dfd.jpg
Looks like it is already an issue. [emoji6]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sylar]

The main contenders for PM are all desperate to sign this trade deal. You really think they won’t sign away the NHS with Farage (who has admitted he wants it privatised) breathing down their necks?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, I do, because almost all opposition MPs (and even many Conservative MPs) oppose the very notion of a privatised NHS, and there's not a chance such a move would get through Parliament.

[Fife-Hibee]

Yes, I do, because almost all opposition MPs (and even many Conservative MPs) oppose the very notion of a privatised NHS, and there's not a chance such a move would get through Parliament.

Are you suggesting the NHS hasn't forgone any privatization under the tories?

[Ozyhibby]

Yes, I do, because almost all opposition MPs (and even many Conservative MPs) oppose the very notion of a privatised NHS, and there's not a chance such a move would get through Parliament.

This Parliament. What about a Tory majority Parliament desperate for a trade deal post brexit to prove it was all a good idea?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Peevemor]

http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/home/finance-and-practice-life-news/virgin-care-wins-1bn-worth-of-nhs-contracts-in-one-year/20035905.article

[Sylar]

Are you suggesting the NHS hasn't forgone any privatization under the tories?

No? But there's a massive difference between some private investment and subcontracting of services, versus complete wholesale to the highest bidder.


This Parliament. What about a Tory majority Parliament desperate for a trade deal post brexit to prove it was all a good idea?


And what about a Labour Parliament, or a Lib Dem Parliament, or a hung Parliament...? "Ifs and buts" in abundance. Again, even many Conservative MPs wouldn't support a sell-off of the NHS. They're far from a united party right now in pretty much all areas of policy - including the one you refer to that would be necessary to trigger this scenario.

[Sylar]

Are you suggesting the NHS hasn't forgone any privatization under the tories?

Can we also not pretend that this just a Tory problem? Particularly when the Scottish Government have been instrumental in facilitating part-investment in NHS Scotland from the Institute of Healthcare Improvement several years ago?

[Smartie]

I'm not saying I'm in favour of this - I'm not.

But what I am in favour is of a national conversation about what standard of healthcare we expect in this country, and how we go about funding it. The politicians are hopeless as all they promise is loads of free stuff that someone else will pay for in order to get themselves into office.

Some of the records we have in relation to health in Scotland are shameful and nothing to be proud of, so we should be open to suggestion - whilst feeling free to telling Trump and America to F off if what is proposed is not in our interests.

I'd rather have a decent debate about the merits of the various ways to fund health services, their pros and cons, and decide which way to go than to stick blinkered with a system that was designed to suit the needs of the nation in 1948. Some aspects of it still work very well indeed, some of it is state of the art and something we should all be proud of. Some of it really isn't.

And whilst words such as "Trump, threatens, NHS, US investors" all bring out a response in all of us, at least we are being presented with cold hard facts to be revulsed by. The stuff that we should really have been revulsed by all along were the shady backroom deals that were cut for personal gain by some of the most highly respected politicians in the country that were not remotely in the public's best interests, in terms of either health or finance.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/11431668/Cash-for-access-scandal-live-Malcolm-Rifkind-to-quit-Parliament.html

https://defendournhsyork.wordpress.com/2017/02/14/selling-off-nhs-for-profit-full-list-of-mps-with-links-to-private-healthcare-firms/

[JeMeSouviens]

The main contenders for PM are all desperate to sign this trade deal. You really think they won’t sign away the NHS with Farage (who has admitted he wants it privatised) breathing down their necks?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So has Johnson. From a speech in 2003.


There is a moral point. If NHS services continue to be free in this way, they will continue to be abused like any free service. If people have to pay for them, they will value them more. Above all, there is an economic point. In a very modest way, this extension of private funds into the NHS would help the Chancellor’s straitened circumstances.

He's constrained only by what he thinks he can get away with.

[lord bunberry]

Anyone who thinks that the tories wouldn’t sacrifice the NHS to facilitate a trade deal with America are being very naive. Post Brexit desperation will kick in and everything will be on the table. They would try and do it through the back door in a stages in order to try and fool the general public.

[ronaldo7]

Yes, I do, because almost all opposition MPs (and even many Conservative MPs) oppose the very notion of a privatised NHS, and there's not a chance such a move would get through Parliament.

I wish I had your confidence in the UK parliament, in whatever form it takes in the future, standing in the way of the bestest, most phenomenal trade deal between the UK, and the U.S.

Let's all just forget about it then. 😉

[Jack]

There's so many Torys with their nose already in the NHS England trough anyone thinking more privatisation of services isn't on the cards is deluded. Brexit will only hasten the race to the bottom.

[Bostonhibby]

There's so many Torys with their nose already in the NHS England trough anyone thinking more privatisation of services isn't on the cards is deluded. Brexit will only hasten the race to the bottom.Indeed.

The big fat Orange guy is basically telling the functionaries who currently run the country what his requirements are for the trade deal that each of them will ultimately claim as a success they had to fight for.

It's all about him forcing our markets, NHS included, to open up to US trade on their terms and that's all about "making America great again" there's got to be a loser in that scenario....

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[Jim44]

Could someone explain to this dim onlooker the sort of things Trump might have in mind when he mentions the NHS being a possible part of a ‘phenomenal’ trade deal between the UK and USA? I’m horrified at the mere thought of any health service link between them and us.

[Just Alf]

Trump has form for all of this...
From the Huawei thing where no one can use them and be our allies because they can secretly take over systems.. Which then actually becomes, we can work with them if we get a good trade deal...

To the Iran thing (I mentioned elsewhere)... Only two places on the planet that can supply an ultra light grade lubricant, one iran which trump says if anyone trades with won't be able to trade with the states, (due to the nuclear thing that no one, not even the cia etc believes) and the other is the US...

It's really clear looking at the bigger picture trump is using every lever he has to 'win his war'



Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[marinello59]

I wish I had your confidence in the UK parliament, in whatever form it takes in the future, standing in the way of the bestest, most phenomenal trade deal between the UK, and the U.S.

Let's all just forget about it then. 😉

Nothing will be off the table with the next Tory leader, such will be their desperation to get a deal, any deal. *******s.

[Hibbyradge]

And once the NHS is in American hands, the trade deal will be pulled.

[Bristolhibby]

Indeed.

The big fat Orange guy is basically telling the functionaries who currently run the country what his requirements are for the trade deal that each of them will ultimately claim as a success they had to fight for.

It's all about him forcing our markets, NHS included, to open up to US trade on their terms and that's all about "making America great again" there's got to be a loser in that scenario....

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

Correct. Trump is Old School. He believes in a Zero Sum Game.

A winner naturally has a loser. For him (USA) to win others (the U.K.) must lose.

https://amyjokim.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/zero.png?w=300

Most negotiations, in life and in International Relations are Non Zero Sum games. Mutual interest are met, both sides compromise. Both sides are happy.

https://amyjokim.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/non-zero.png?w=300

J

[The Harp Awakes]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/people/donald-trump-says-nhs-will-be-part-of-post-brexit-trade-deal-negotiations-1-4940572/amp?__twitter_impression=true

If this is true then it’s another reason to vote yes in indyref2.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

With a no deal Brexit looking more likely, Boris probably being the next PM, Farage going from strength to strength in England, the Labour Party in self-destruct mode and now Trump's intervention on the NHS, it does seem like the perfect storm for a surge in support for Scottish independence.

Time will tell.

[Bostonhibby]

With a no deal Brexit looking more likely, Boris probably being the next PM, Farage going from strength to strength in England, the Labour Party in self-destruct mode and now Trump's intervention on the NHS, it does seem like the perfect storm for a surge in support for Scottish independence.

Time will tell.As (sadly) now an outsider looking in I tend to agree with you, lucky the big fat Orange guy has already declared that Scotland loves him. Maybe there's deals to be done[emoji849]

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[Smartie]

It's worth remembering that Trump won't be around forever.

The USA has many flaws but it has many positives as well. It might not seem like it but they need friends around the world, if not now then in the future.

Would we be so against this type of thing if it was being driven by the man (Obama) who sought to bring in some sort of health provision for the weakest in American society?

I can't stand Trump.

I'll wait until I know more about this (ie anything) before deciding how awful it is.

[Glory Lurker]

Good point by Smartie about having a conversation. Personally, I'd like to see us face up to the fact that our low-tax culture of last 35 years has starved the NHS. Private involvement can't fix it. If there was a frank conversation then hopefully that would become clear and we can then accept that substantially increased state investment is essential if we want to save it.

[Slavers]

Good point by Smartie about having a conversation. Personally, I'd like to see us face up to the fact that our low-tax culture of last 35 years has starved the NHS. Private involvement can't fix it. If there was a frank conversation then hopefully that would become clear and we can then accept that substantially increased state investment is essential if we want to save it.

Is it worth mentioning the approx 500,000 people each year that migrate to the UK might be putting additional strain onto the NHS?

[Smartie]

Is it worth mentioning the approx 500,000 people each year that migrate to the UK might be putting additional strain onto the NHS?

It is worth mentioning, but be prepared to take on board the fact that it has been proven time and time again that this particular cohort of people are known to put more in by way of taxes than they take out by way of healthcare.

They're subsidising us, and without them the shortfall will need to be made up somewhere.

What do you fancy? Paying more tax, cutting services or continuing to follow Farage and chums into the sea with this nonsense?

[JeMeSouviens]

It is worth mentioning, but be prepared to take on board the fact that it has been proven time and time again that this particular cohort of people are known to put more in by way of taxes than they take out by way of healthcare.

They're subsidising us, and without them the shortfall will need to be made up somewhere.

What do you fancy? Paying more tax, cutting services or continuing to follow Farage and chums into the sea with this nonsense?

Not to mention that they staff the thing!

[Glory Lurker]

Is it worth mentioning the approx 500,000 people each year that migrate to the UK might be putting additional strain onto the NHS?

It would be a pretty poor conversation if folk weren’t allowed to mention stuff :greengrin.

I think entitlement is a very important issue. I don’t pretend to know what would be a fair period of residency to qualify but I think that should be in the mix. Proof of entitlement then comes in to play. Do we need a national ID scheme to make that work? I can’t see an alternative but, again, i’m no expert.

[JeMeSouviens]

It's worth remembering that Trump won't be around forever.

The USA has many flaws but it has many positives as well. It might not seem like it but they need friends around the world, if not now then in the future.

Would we be so against this type of thing if it was being driven by the man (Obama) who sought to bring in some sort of health provision for the weakest in American society?

I can't stand Trump.

I'll wait until I know more about this (ie anything) before deciding how awful it is.

Well TTIP, the negotiations for a US-EU trade deal started under Obama and people seemed generally against that. So, yes, I think.

[Slavers]

It is worth mentioning, but be prepared to take on board the fact that it has been proven time and time again that this particular cohort of people are known to put more in by way of taxes than they take out by way of healthcare.

You could well be right but in the short term 500,000 people need health care from the moment they arrive. Surely you must agree that these numbers added every year puts strain on the NHS? How could they not?

If the current population can't fund the NHS now then how does adding huge amounts to the population every year solve this,especially as many of the 500 000 Are low skilled workers that do not pay high levels of tax but require expensive NHS treatments.

I'd be interested to see your figures as for me the math doesn't add up.

[Hibbyradge]

Is it worth mentioning the approx 500,000 people each year that migrate to the UK might be putting additional strain onto the NHS?

They might, but they take a lot more strain off the country than they put on the NHS.

[Fife-Hibee]

For those with short memories. When Trump was first elected, he stood up on a platform and told his followers that he will only ever make international trade decisions that benefit the US markets.

The idea that any sort of trade deal with Trumps US will be in anyway a benefit to the UK is completely delusional. He would crush the UK in an instant if he thought it was for the overall benefit of the US economy.

[Hibbyradge]

Net immigration to the UK is about 270000.

[Jack]

You could well be right but in the short term 500,000 people need health care from the moment they arrive. Surely you must agree that these numbers added every year puts strain on the NHS? How could they not?

If the current population can't fund the NHS now then how does adding huge amounts to the population every year solve this,especially as many of the 500 000 Are low skilled workers that do not pay high levels of tax but require expensive NHS treatments.

I'd be interested to see your figures as for me the math doesn't add up.

Where have you heard all this?

As has been said immigrants are net contributors to the system so are effectively covering their costs to society.

I'm not sure either of the proportion that are low skilled. As has also already been mentioned there are huge numbers in the NHS from overseas and I'd go as far to suggest most of our surgeons are not UK born.

Also most immigrants are of working age and working i.e. those least likely to be on benefits of any kind and least likely to need NHS services.

[weecounty hibby]

Not to mention that they staff the thing!

That is a key point that is so often overlooked when migration to the UK is mentioned. My daughter has had 29 different operations or procedures, some life saving, and not one of her consultants has been British, loads of nurses, Ward staff, cleaners etc aso well. Also as we are talking about the NHS I would imagine that her medical care has cost in excess of £1m and I dread to think how that would have played out if we lived in the good old US of A. Her condition was completely unexpected and only discovered at birth so we would have been unlikely to have been insured for it. The NHS is the greatest institution and should be protected against folk like Farage, Johnson and Trump. If they need private treatment I'm sure they could all afford it but most of us can't and need the NHS

[Smartie]

You could well be right but in the short term 500,000 people need health care from the moment they arrive. Surely you must agree that these numbers added every year puts strain on the NHS? How could they not?

If the current population can't fund the NHS now then how does adding huge amounts to the population every year solve this,especially as many of the 500 000 Are low skilled workers that do not pay high levels of tax but require expensive NHS treatments.

I'd be interested to see your figures as for me the math doesn't add up.

I don't have figures, just hearsay......

Of your 500,000 figure (where did that come from btw?) many WILL be low skilled workers. Whilst they may not pay a lot in income tax, money will still find it's way to the exchequer from them via VAT etc.
Elsewhere within this figure will be highly paid professionals, many who work within the NHS so they don't just put in money, they put in work as well. The NHS tends to get a pretty good deal from it's staff - the goodwill it enjoys from the people who work within it allows them to go above and beyond and a massive % of the NHS workforce started life outside the UK. The NHS is held in very high regard in some parts of the world (in very low regard in others) and people will come specifically to work within it.

Where I think we need to consider the effects of immigration on the NHS is where we consider what might happen in future. Whilst these people are putting more in now, in future (as they get old) they will require more care into old age, the same as our indigenous population do. By encouraging the immigration "sticking plaster" for now, are we kicking the can down the road and borrowing more and more off our children and grandchildren to allow us to continue to lifestyle that is well beyond our means?

[Moulin Yarns]

Is it worth mentioning the approx 500,000 people each year that migrate to the UK might be putting additional strain onto the NHS?

Or those who leave the UK to reduce the strain on the NHS.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/migrationstatisticsquarterlyreport/february2019

[Moulin Yarns]

It is worth mentioning, but be prepared to take on board the fact that it has been proven time and time again that this particular cohort of people are known to put more in by way of taxes than they take out by way of healthcare.

They're subsidising us, and without them the shortfall will need to be made up somewhere.

What do you fancy? Paying more tax, cutting services or continuing to follow Farage and chums into the sea with this nonsense?

This 👍

[Moulin Yarns]

You could well be right but in the short term 500,000 people need health care from the moment they arrive. Surely you must agree that these numbers added every year puts strain on the NHS? How could they not?

If the current population can't fund the NHS now then how does adding huge amounts to the population every year solve this,especially as many of the 500 000 Are low skilled workers that do not pay high levels of tax but require expensive NHS treatments.

I'd be interested to see your figures as for me the math doesn't add up.

You mean that they are allowed into the UK with diseases and illness. ****, who knew!!

[Moulin Yarns]

You could well be right but in the short term 500,000 people need health care from the moment they arrive. Surely you must agree that these numbers added every year puts strain on the NHS? How could they not?

If the current population can't fund the NHS now then how does adding huge amounts to the population every year solve this,especially as many of the 500 000 Are low skilled workers that do not pay high levels of tax but require expensive NHS treatments.

I'd be interested to see your figures as for me the math doesn't add up.

Stop slavering.


https://fullfact.org/immigration/how-immigrants-affect-public-finances/

[lapsedhibee]

Is it worth mentioning the approx 500,000 people each year that migrate to the UK might be putting additional strain onto the NHS?

Also quite a lot of those people will be homosexual, which will put an even greater additional strain on the NHS when scientific treatment becomes available for that condition. :agree:

[Moulin Yarns]

Also quite a lot of those people will be homosexual, which will put an even greater additional strain on the NHS when scientific treatment becomes available for that condition. :agree:

I sincerely hope that you are trying to be sarcastic. If not then you should be ashamed of yourself.

[Ozyhibby]

Immigration seems to work well for us. Young people come here to work and pay taxes and old people (who get sick more) bugger of to Spain.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lapsedhibee]

I sincerely hope that you are trying to be sarcastic. If not then you should be ashamed of yourself.

Brexit Party's ahead in the polling for Westminster voting intention.
Widdicombe will be looking for something to do when her stint as MEP is over (if it even begins).
A Health Secretary will be required.
Her view isn't Brexit Party policy, but according to Nige party policy will be driven by the views of party members.
Strange times these. Can't rule anything out.

[JeMeSouviens]

Brexit Party's ahead in the polling for Westminster voting intention.
Widdicombe will be looking for something to do when her stint as MEP is over (if it even begins).
A Health Secretary will be required.
Her view isn't Brexit Party policy, but according to Nige party policy will be driven by the views of party members.
Strange times these. Can't rule anything out.

He’s probably right as he is the only member! Everyone else is just a “registered supporter”. Nige has learned his lesson from UKIP and has total control.

[Bangkok Hibby]

I sincerely hope that you are trying to be sarcastic. If not then you should be ashamed of yourself.

You obviously missed Widdecombes comment about science one day intervening to cure
homosexuality

[Alex Trager]

You could well be right but in the short term 500,000 people need health care from the moment they arrive. Surely you must agree that these numbers added every year puts strain on the NHS? How could they not?

If the current population can't fund the NHS now then how does adding huge amounts to the population every year solve this,especially as many of the 500 000 Are low skilled workers that do not pay high levels of tax but require expensive NHS treatments.

I'd be interested to see your figures as for me the math doesn't add up.

Do the 500K need healthcare on arrival?
You make it seem like they come off the boat with lots of ailments needing fixed.
I don’t think that is the case with a vast majority.

We can fund the NHS. If we stop giving tax cuts all over the place.

[Jim44]

This issue seems to be academic now as Trump has done a u-turn, saying the NHS would not form part of a trade deal.

[James310]

This issue seems to be academic now as Trump has done a u-turn, saying the NHS would not form part of a trade deal.

Indeed, but let's not let that get in the way of another whinge thread.

It's funny how many on here claim Trump is a liar and not to be trusted, yet the minute he claims something about the NHS, which he never even knew what it was and had to have it explained to him, he is suddenly the most trusted person and it's definitely going to happen.

[Ozyhibby]

Indeed, but let's not let that get in the way of another whinge thread.

It's funny how many on here claim Trump is a liar and not to be trusted, yet the minute he claims something about the NHS, which he never even knew what it was and had to have it explained to him, he is suddenly the most trusted person and it's definitely going to happen.

Good idea, let’s gamble the NHS on the word of Boris, Farage and Trump. I’m sure it will be fine.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[James310]

Good idea, let’s gamble the NHS on the word of Boris, Farage and Trump. I’m sure it will be fine.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How you got to that conclusion from my post I have no idea, but it made for a great soundbyte.

[Moulin Yarns]

Public procurement is a devolved power to Holyrood, but, to enable Westminster to 'negotiate' with the rest of the world on trade deals (otherwise known as the USA), Public procurment is one of the 24 areas being 'taken back' by Westminster.

In other words, the NHS in Scotland is just as much at risk from privitisation as any other public body



http://www.businessforscotland.com/us-trade-deal-would-rip-nhs-scotland-from-holyroods-control/

[lord bunberry]

Check out this Trump supporting idiot :rolleyes:
https://twitter.com/roy1batty/status/1136209615383912449?s=21

[Sylar]

Public procurement is a devolved power to Holyrood, but, to enable Westminster to 'negotiate' with the rest of the world on trade deals (otherwise known as the USA), Public procurment is one of the 24 areas being 'taken back' by Westminster.

In other words, the NHS in Scotland is just as much at risk from privitisation as any other public body



http://www.businessforscotland.com/us-trade-deal-would-rip-nhs-scotland-from-holyroods-control/

As per my earlier post, the Scottish Government have already facilitated American procurement of NHS Scotland contracts to the tune of millions (to IHI). This idea that NHS privatisation is the sole bastion of Conservatives is a complete fallacy.

[Moulin Yarns]

As per my earlier post, the Scottish Government have already facilitated American procurement of NHS Scotland contracts to the tune of millions (to IHI). This idea that NHS privatisation is the sole bastion of Conservatives is a complete fallacy.


The following from an FOI request,


The Scottish Government does not privatise roles within Scotland's NHS. For
2013-14, private sector expenditure represented less than 1% of total hospital and
community health services expenditure. This is generally targeted at specific areas
and we are working on building capacity within NHSScotland to reduce this. The
annual accounts of NHSScotland Boards include expenditure on hospital and
community health services for all other private sector bodies with which the Board is
in contract for health care services. This covers, for example, expenditure with
private sector hospitals undertaking specific contracted activities.
For 2013-14, private sector expenditure represented only 0.8% of total hospital
and community health services expenditure. Details on private sector expenditure
are not held centrally by the Scottish Government but are held centrally by
NHSScotland Boards.


Meanwhile south of the border

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/nhs-privatisation-contracts-virgin-care-richard-branson-jeremy-hunt-a8134386.html

[JeMeSouviens]

Check out this Trump supporting idiot :rolleyes:
https://twitter.com/roy1batty/status/1136209615383912449?s=21

https://twitter.com/gavmacn/status/1135960315894599681

Has the vid

[cabbageandribs1875]

clicky time

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/242300?fbclid=IwAR2hoHJO2QG9UGxVgcEosSn7ocqFrM2Ao-olKUN6Gc7lGe1j0B5RADcJCd4


Don't put our NHS up for negotiation

Please introduce concrete safeguards that will make sure our NHS is kept out of any future trade deals after Brexit.


list of clicks appear to be going rather fast :greengrin

[Bristolhibby]

I don't have figures, just hearsay......

Of your 500,000 figure (where did that come from btw?) many WILL be low skilled workers. Whilst they may not pay a lot in income tax, money will still find it's way to the exchequer from them via VAT etc.
Elsewhere within this figure will be highly paid professionals, many who work within the NHS so they don't just put in money, they put in work as well. The NHS tends to get a pretty good deal from it's staff - the goodwill it enjoys from the people who work within it allows them to go above and beyond and a massive % of the NHS workforce started life outside the UK. The NHS is held in very high regard in some parts of the world (in very low regard in others) and people will come specifically to work within it.

Where I think we need to consider the effects of immigration on the NHS is where we consider what might happen in future. Whilst these people are putting more in now, in future (as they get old) they will require more care into old age, the same as our indigenous population do. By encouraging the immigration "sticking plaster" for now, are we kicking the can down the road and borrowing more and more off our children and grandchildren to allow us to continue to lifestyle that is well beyond our means?

But by then we will have 500,000 (not sure about that figure) new younger immigrants coming in.

J

[RyeSloan]

Healthcare is as usual a touchy subject.

It’s funny though as the NHS ranks pretty damn high on most scales apart from one...Healthcare outcomes! So great at lots of things apart from the rather crucial bit at the end, keeping people alive.

Australia seems to rank pretty highly on that score but is funded though a public insurance route but privately run.

There is of course many many models and ways of measuring them, it is curious though that there is an automatic rejection of ‘privatisation’ in the UK even although there is evidence from elsewhere that alternative models may have merit.

I don’t think there can ever be any real rational debate on this topic though.

Still one thing is clear, the last model anyone should want to follow is the US model...

[Bristolhibby]

Brexit Party's ahead in the polling for Westminster voting intention.
Widdicombe will be looking for something to do when her stint as MEP is over (if it even begins).
A Health Secretary will be required.
Her view isn't Brexit Party policy, but according to Nige party policy will be driven by the views of party members.
Strange times these. Can't rule anything out.

She can work on a cure for “Gayness”.

J

[lord bunberry]

https://twitter.com/gavmacn/status/1135960315894599681

Has the vid
Yeah baby :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

Indeed, but let's not let that get in the way of another whinge thread.

It's funny how many on here claim Trump is a liar and not to be trusted, yet the minute he claims something about the NHS, which he never even knew what it was and had to have it explained to him, he is suddenly the most trusted person and it's definitely going to happen.

Which version should we believe?

On the table or not on the table?

I wonder if he was told that what he said was damaging to his chums, Boris and Nigel. :hmmm:

"America First" ...

[lapsedhibee]

Trump tells Varadkar that he's been discussing the wall/border issue in Ireland with some very good people and as a result is sure everything's going to work out just fine. Sure Leo will be well reassured by that :faf:

[James310]

Which version should we believe?

On the table or not on the table?

I wonder if he was told that what he said was damaging to his chums, Boris and Nigel. :hmmm:

"America First" ...

He never even knew what the NHS was and then made some broad comment about everything being on the table. But let's not let the facts ruin a good story.

Meanwhile we have our climate emergency to deal with, as our FM opens a new terminal at Edinburgh Airport. I wonder if Salmond will be banned from this one as well.

[Bristolhibby]

He never even knew what the NHS was and then made some broad comment about everything being on the table. But let's not let the facts ruin a good story.

Meanwhile we have our climate emergency to deal with, as our FM opens a new terminal at Edinburgh Airport. I wonder if Salmond will be banned from this one as well.

The fact that he didn’t know what the NHS was when he was coming to the U.K. to talk a “Deal” speaks volumes for his ignorance.

What does his staff do? Does he get briefings?

J

[lapsedhibee]

He never even knew what the NHS was and then made some broad comment about everything being on the table. But let's not let the facts ruin a good story.


Incorrect. He never knew what the NHS was before he came to England. The PM explained to him that the NHS was the National Health Service immediately before he announced that the NHS was on the table.

[James310]

The fact that he didn’t know what the NHS was when he was coming to the U.K. to talk a “Deal” speaks volumes for his ignorance.

What does his staff do? Does he get briefings?

J

Indeed, he never had a clue but all of a sudden he is selling off the NHS. As I say he is an idiot not to be trusted, but all of a sudden he is taken seriously and the Americans will be running the NHS this time next year.

[James310]

Incorrect. He never knew what the NHS was before he came to England. The PM explained to him that the NHS was the National Health Service immediately before he announced that the NHS was on the table.

You give him a lot of credit if you think he went from not having a clue what it is to then within seconds declaring it's going to be privatised.

Then today he announced it actually is not on the table at all.

But as I say let's not let the facts ruin a good story.

[Smartie]

The fact that he didn’t know what the NHS was when he was coming to the U.K. to talk a “Deal” speaks volumes for his ignorance.

What does his staff do? Does he get briefings?

J

I just don't know how you brief a guy about something like this.

Trump is an insensitive bull in a China shop. The British attitude towards the NHS is farcically sensitive and protective.

Simply bringing up the subject of the NHS was only ever going to lead to this quite ridiculous storm. All the briefing in the world would not successfully avert this inevitable nonsense.

He gave a vague, brush-off, uncommitted answer and in any sensible situation it would have passed virtually unnoticed.

[Bristolhibby]

I just don't know how you brief a guy about something like this.

Trump is an insensitive bull in a China shop. The British attitude towards the NHS is farcically sensitive and protective.

Simply bringing up the subject of the NHS was only ever going to lead to this quite ridiculous storm. All the briefing in the world would not successfully avert this inevitable nonsense.

He gave a vague, brush-off, uncommitted answer and in any sensible situation it would have passed virtually unnoticed.

But his staffers should gave known and briefed how sensitive the British are to the NHS. His stock answer should have been, “what a great institution that you have, negotiations have not started so I can’t possibly comment on what the content of any future trade deal would be”.

Standard politician fluff.

Instead we get “everything is on the table”. Clearly followed by a staffer briefed retraction from Trump.

We do know he puts America first, and believes in Zero Sum Games. So why would I ever trust Trump not to bring the NHS into some post Hard Brexit lopsided trade deal.

J

[Ozyhibby]

Indeed, he never had a clue but all of a sudden he is selling off the NHS. As I say he is an idiot not to be trusted, but all of a sudden he is taken seriously and the Americans will be running the NHS this time next year.

Lots of people in America made the mistake of underestimating him. I don’t think we should make that same mistake. Not with the NHS at stake.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[James310]

Lots of people in America made the mistake of underestimating him. I don’t think we should make that same mistake. Not with the NHS at stake.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Who was that then?

[Hibbyradge]

Who was that then?

Please stop.

Do you really believe that someone who campaigns under the slogan "America First" is benign?

I don't. Farage and Johnson, Trump's pals, want to privatise the NHS.

Do you really believe Trump wouldn't try to get it from us?

[makaveli1875]

Please stop.

Do you really believe that someone who campaigns under the slogan "America First" is benign?

I don't. Farage and Johnson, Trump's pals, want to privatise the NHS.

Do you really believe Trump wouldn't try to get it from us?

Do you really believe Brexit will be resolved before Trump leaves office ?

[James310]

Please stop.

Do you really believe that someone who campaigns under the slogan "America First" is benign?

I don't. Farage and Johnson, Trump's pals, want to privatise the NHS.

Do you really believe Trump wouldn't try to get it from us?

I asked who had underestimated Trump, that's all.

I don't think Trump has a clue what the NHS is, as was proven by him having to ask what it was.

[Hibbyradge]

I asked who had underestimated Trump, that's all.

I don't think Trump has a clue what the NHS is, as was proven by him having to ask what it was.

Do you think Farage and Johnson know what the NHS is?

Do you think that someone who campaigns under the slogan "America First" is benign and wouldn't want to get it from us?

[Hibbyradge]

Do you really believe Brexit will be resolved before Trump leaves office ?

6 years?

Mibbes aye mibbes naw.

[James310]

Do you think Farage and Johnson know what the NHS is?

Do you think that someone who campaigns under the slogan "America First" is benign and wouldn't want to get it from us?

I have been hearing for years the NHS will be privatised, never has been. It will I predict be free at the point of contact for many years, some services might be in the hands of private firms but that's the same in NHS Scotland.

Ireland is often lauded as an example of what we could become, the majority I believe pay to see their GP and even pay for calling an ambulance.

It's another hysterical over reaction but because it's Trump it makes good headlines and good sound bytes on here.

[Hibbyradge]

I have been hearing for years the NHS will be privatised, never has been. It will I predict be free at the point of contact for many years, some services might be in the hands of private firms but that's the same in NHS Scotland.

Ireland is often lauded as an example of what we could become, the majority I believe pay to see their GP and even pay for calling an ambulance.

It's another hysterical over reaction but because it's Trump it makes good headlines and good sound bytes on here.

I've asked you the same question twice, but you've not answered it directly.

I think that you know Trump is predatory, not benign, and that the NHS will be in his sights.

And you know that he'll be skillfully assisted by his fan boys Farage and Johnson.

[James310]

I've asked you the same question twice, but you've not answered it directly.

I think that you know Trump is predatory, not benign, and that the NHS will be in his sights.

And you know that he'll be skillfully assisted by his fan boys Farage and Johnson.

Yes of course Farage and Johnson know what the NHS is. No I don't think Trump will be anywhere near the NHS. As I said been hearing the same story for many years.

[Mibbes Aye]

Public procurement is a devolved power to Holyrood, but, to enable Westminster to 'negotiate' with the rest of the world on trade deals (otherwise known as the USA), Public procurment is one of the 24 areas being 'taken back' by Westminster.

In other words, the NHS in Scotland is just as much at risk from privitisation as any other public body



http://www.businessforscotland.com/us-trade-deal-would-rip-nhs-scotland-from-holyroods-control/

That’s an appallingly poorly written article, stylistically and grammatically.

I appreciate you are quoting a pro-Indy publication but surely some of them know the difference between crisis and crises or when to use an inverted comma!

[Hibbyradge]

Yes of course Farage and Johnson know what the NHS is. No I don't think Trump will be anywhere near the NHS. As I said been hearing the same story for many years.

You've still avoided my questions. You and Fife have a whole lot in common. Have you two ever been seen in the same room ... ?

However, Trump hasn't been around for years.

Neither has Brexit.

Are you opposed to the privatisation of the NHS?

[Mibbes Aye]

The following from an FOI request,




Meanwhile south of the border

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/nhs-privatisation-contracts-virgin-care-richard-branson-jeremy-hunt-a8134386.html

I think you said before you used to work in local government, maybe in planning, so you know how FOI responses work, I’m sure.

There is nothing in there that refutes Sylar’s point, merely tries to obfuscate it. Essentially he is right. Many public millions have been poured the way of private healthcare in Scotland in a failed attempt to meet the targets the Scottish Government set themselves.

[James310]

Trump hasn't been around for years.

Neither has Brexit.

Are you opposed to the privatisation of the NHS?

Yes I am opposed to it. It needs reformed though as you have crazy situations such as people getting paracetamol on prescription that costs the NHS a fortune, but you can buy it in Tesco for 35p.

If only the Scottish Government never cut the NHS Scotland budget.

* Between 2016/17 and 2017/18, the overall health budget increased by 1.5 per cent in cash terms. But taking inflation into account, the budget decreased by 0.2 per cent. (Source: Audit Scotland)

* ​The overall health budget in 2017/18 was £13.1 billion, a 0.2 per cent decrease in real terms on the previous year. The NHS struggled to break even.

Three boards required a loan from the Scottish Government and the majority relied on short-term measures to balance their books. NHS boards achieved unprecedented savings of £449.1 million in 2017/18 by relying heavily on one-off savings"

Audit Scotland report, NHS in Scotland 2018.


I am sure someone will come along and tell me how it is the fault of:

A) Westminster
B) Donald Trump
C) BBC Question Time

[James310]

You've still avoided my questions. You and Fife have a whole lot in common. Have you two ever been seen in the same room ... ?

However, Trump hasn't been around for years.

Neither has Brexit.

Are you opposed to the privatisation of the NHS?

I answered it, what was it again then if I have not.

[Haymaker]

Who was that then?

The Democratic party.

[James310]

The Democratic party.

They underestimated him in what way?

[SHODAN]

The British attitude towards the NHS is farcically sensitive and protective.

That's because we only have it because a post-war prime minister took a once-in-a-generation chance to not privatise something, and that by some freak accident we STILL have it even though we haven't had a socialist government for forty years.

Our "sensitive and protective" attitude towards it is the only reason successions of hyper-privatisation-happy governments haven't tried to dismantle it.

[Tornadoes70]

That's because we only have it because a post-war prime minister took a once-in-a-generation chance to not privatise something, and that by some freak accident we STILL have it even though we haven't had a socialist government for forty years.

Our "sensitive and protective" attitude towards it is the only reason successions of hyper-privatisation-happy governments haven't tried to dismantle it.

:agree:

Our NHS is probably the greatest social advancement achievement in living memory. As posted previously I'm currently helping my buddy as much as I can who was recently diagnosed with cancer whose only just begun chemotherapy and radiotherapy. The staff at the cancer units have been absolutely brilliant and could not do any more to ensure patients are infinitely well informed and helped through each stage of the process with outstanding care and professionalism.

Hands off our NHS would be the very strong message to those who might try to dismantle it for either profit or political agendas.

[ronaldo7]

Yes I am opposed to it. It needs reformed though as you have crazy situations such as people getting paracetamol on prescription that costs the NHS a fortune, but you can buy it in Tesco for 35p.

If only the Scottish Government never cut the NHS Scotland budget.

* Between 2016/17 and 2017/18, the overall health budget increased by 1.5 per cent in cash terms. But taking inflation into account, the budget decreased by 0.2 per cent. (Source: Audit Scotland)

* ​The overall health budget in 2017/18 was £13.1 billion, a 0.2 per cent decrease in real terms on the previous year. The NHS struggled to break even.

Three boards required a loan from the Scottish Government and the majority relied on short-term measures to balance their books. NHS boards achieved unprecedented savings of £449.1 million in 2017/18 by relying heavily on one-off savings"

Audit Scotland report, NHS in Scotland 2018.


I am sure someone will come along and tell me how it is the fault of:

A) Westminster
B) Donald Trump
C) BBC Question Time

If only the Scottish government budget hadn't been cut by billions.

When will those "proud Scots, but", ever learn to stand on their own two feet.

[Tornadoes70]

If only the Scottish government budget hadn't been cut by billions.

When will those "proud Scots, but", ever learn to stand on their own two feet.

Are you really saying that folk can't be 'proud Scots' in absence of being a separatist nationalist?

Is it any wonder the vast majority of Scots do not want another very divisive referendum when that type of wholly antagonistic language is casually referenced.

On the subject of your'e point regarding cuts your'e advocating a Westminster Labour government taking charge as Scottish nationalism would without any doubt whatsoever put the NHS at critical severe risk of being dismantled into a wholly different entity as a separate stand alone Scottish economy at least in the early days descended into free-fall.

Many highly qualified expert and non expert staff who work within our NHS might not care to live and work in the new formed nationalistic stand alone Scotland as who knows what the consequences might be. There could easily be a hard border with the rest of what was the UK, inflation could be rampant with any new currency worth much less than what our current UK pound is, taxes would increase far beyond any living standards as our government finances were stretched to boiling point in order to shore up the new currency etc etc etc.

Why take that risk at all?

Our NHS is far safer within the compounds of the UK.

[The Modfather]

Are you really saying that folk can't be 'proud Scots' in absence of being a separatist nationalist?

Is it any wonder the vast majority of Scots do not want another very divisive referendum when that type of wholly antagonistic language is casually referenced.

On the subject of your'e point regarding cuts your'e advocating a Westminster Labour government taking charge as Scottish nationalism would without any doubt whatsoever put the NHS at critical severe risk of being dismantled into a wholly different entity as a separate stand alone Scottish economy at least in the early days descended into free-fall.

Many highly qualified expert and non expert staff who work within our NHS might not care to live and work in the new formed nationalistic stand alone Scotland as who knows what the consequences might be. There could easily be a hard border with the rest of what was the UK, inflation could be rampant with any new currency worth much less than what our current UK pound is, taxes would increase far beyond any living standards as our government finances were stretched to boiling point in order to shore up the new currency etc etc etc.

Why take that risk at all?

Our NHS is far safer within the compounds of the UK.

Are you really pulling people up about antagonistic language when you constantly claim that separatists don’t care about Scotland?

[Smartie]

That's because we only have it because a post-war prime minister took a once-in-a-generation chance to not privatise something, and that by some freak accident we STILL have it even though we haven't had a socialist government for forty years.

Our "sensitive and protective" attitude towards it is the only reason successions of hyper-privatisation-happy governments haven't tried to dismantle it.

It's the reason that it has been and is being packaged up and sold off for the benefit of politicians and businesses (NOT the public) behind our backs, in the absence of a sensible conversation regarding the benefits of privatisation, part-privatisation and remaining nationalised.

[Smartie]

:agree:

Our NHS is probably the greatest social advancement achievement in living memory. As posted previously I'm currently helping my buddy as much as I can who was recently diagnosed with cancer whose only just begun chemotherapy and radiotherapy. The staff at the cancer units have been absolutely brilliant and could not do any more to ensure patients are infinitely well informed and helped through each stage of the process with outstanding care and professionalism.

Hands off our NHS would be the very strong message to those who might try to dismantle it for either profit or political agendas.

It may not seem it with some of my posts, but I agree with this 100%.

There are parts of the NHS that perform phenomenally well. Cancer treatment in this country is very good, and the fact that it exists at such a high level for everyone in our society is something that everyone should be proud of - and this MUST be protected. I became a father for the first time last year and the care at the ERI was first class. The commitment of the people within the hospital, the commitment of some of them to even get to the hospital (it was around the time the "Beast from the East" was here) was incredible, and it is a sort of loyalty you don't get from staff in other jobs/ institutions.

If I was scraped off the side of a car, I'd want it to be in this country (although response times are getting poorer and my opinion may change in future) as we've all got that fear of the credit card being checked before you're bundled into the back of an ambulance.

Unfortunately there are some parts that many perceive to be less important and there are areas (departments or geographical locations) that could and should do so much better. I think we should open to considering options in these areas.

Is it worth having world class cancer care, but having GP's so rushed off their feet that they struggle to adequately diagnose cancer in the early stages, at a stage where the complicated, expensive, world class care could potentially be prevented?

[James310]

If only the Scottish government budget hadn't been cut by billions.

When will those "proud Scots, but", ever learn to stand on their own two feet.

Yet,

The Scottish government will get an extra £959.7m to spend over the next three years as a result of decisions made by Mr Hammond which cut across devolved areas - known as "Barnett consequentials".


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-46022989

[ronaldo7]

Yet,

The Scottish government will get an extra £959.7m to spend over the next three years as a result of decisions made by Mr Hammond which cut across devolved areas - known as "Barnett consequentials".


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-46022989

We're still waiting for the £167 million which was stolen from the Scottish Hill farmers to be returned, so forgive me if I take your lovely , Mr Hammond, with a pinch of salt.

In other words, don't believe all you read or hear on the bbc. 👍

If indeed they have stumbled on some cash, it's just returning what they've already withheld.

[James310]

We're still waiting for the £167 million which was stolen from the Scottish Hill farmers to be returned, so forgive me if I take your lovely , Mr Hammond, with a pinch of salt.

In other words, don't believe all you read or hear on the bbc. 👍

If indeed they have stumbled on some cash, it's just returning what they've already withheld.

So when you said the budget had been cut you were in fact wrong, unless you wish to provide evidence to the contrary.

[ronaldo7]

So when you said the budget had been cut you were in fact wrong, unless you wish to provide evidence to the contrary.

Google is your friend, I'm not going to bother if you're not.

A simple search of the Scottish Gov website will tell you that a real terms cut of 3.8% to the Scottish fiscal budget between 2010 and 2019.

That's the Tories for you.

[Callum_62]

Net immigration to the UK is about 270000.And obviously some of they migrants pay a NHS subsidy

My partners latest visa extension came with an added £500 cost due to the UK Gov now charging Kiwis. Some NHS subsidies are far bigger than this too

Add onto that what my partner pays in, I think she more than self funded her current NHS use

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk