What are your positive reasons for voting Conservative?

[Hibbyradge]

We all know why Ingish votes Labour.

He's told us as nauseum that despite their falling popularity and, it seems, relevance, he supports them because they "seek to protect the NHS, benefits, provide quality homes for those who're out-with the housing market, jobs, pensions and to change the UK for the better for the many not the few".

Although the reality is sadly somewhat different to those laudable high ideals, at least we know his reasons.

What reasons do people on here have for voting Tory?

[Killiehibbie]

I could only imagine it's to widen the gap between them and the poor.

[Fife-Hibee]

Every person i've ever met who votes Conservative have all had one major thing in common. They either think they're ahead of the competition, or that they have the potential to be. They think that by voting Conservative, their interests will be protected on the backs of those they consider below them.

They think they're "part of the club".

Then you've got the "value the union" types. Who (when all hell freezes over) will continue to protect the very system that is causing untold damage to society as a whole. They have yet to be unplugged.

[The Harp Awakes]

I suspect there is a fair % of the Tory vote in Scotland who are working class, and for whom a Tory government is the last thing they need for their own personal prosperity.

These same people will continue to vote Tory out of blind loyalty to the Union. Ruth Davidson knows this and is therefore positioning the Conservative & Unionist party as the only political party in Scotland who can preserve the union. She has been successful to date in reviving Tory support in Scotland, but funnily enough she may lose the independence argument and her precious union, due to the disintegration of the Labour Party. Many disaffected Labour voters who will never vote Tory, may move over to the nationalist cause in sufficient numbers to tip the balance in favour of Yes in indyref2. I think we saw evidence of this happening in the recent Euro elections where the SNP was dominant in all but 2 constituencies. Even the results in Orkney & Shetland showed significant swings to the SNP.

[Bangkok Hibby]

I suspect there is a fair % of the Tory vote in Scotland who are working class, and for whom a Tory government is the last thing they need for their own personal prosperity.

These same people will continue to vote Tory out of blind loyalty to the Union. Ruth Davidson knows this and is therefore positioning the Conservative & Unionist party as the only political party in Scotland who can preserve the union. She has been successful to date in reviving Tory support in Scotland, but funnily enough she may lose the independence argument and her precious union, due to the disintegration of the Labour Party. Many disaffected Labour voters who will never vote Tory, may move over to the nationalist cause in sufficient numbers to tip the balance in favour of Yes in indyref2. I think we saw evidence of this happening in the recent Euro elections where the SNP was dominant in all but 2 constituencies. Even the results in Orkney & Shetland showed significant swings to the SNP.

Because they're "alright Jack" either they or their parents bought their council housr and have bought into the idea those who are worse off than them are scroungers. In short...c@@nts

[Bangkok Hibby]

Sorry didnt mean to quote you

[Hibbyradge]

I really want to hear the views of Tory voters, not just their opponents' guesses.

[Moulin Yarns]

I really want to hear the views of Tory voters, not just their opponents' guesses.

Funny enough not many willing to engage. I wonder why?

[Hibrandenburg]

This thread is already longer than I thought it would ever get. :wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

This thread is already longer than I thought it would ever get. :wink:

Yes but not much insight into tory voters.

[Fife-Hibee]

I really want to hear the views of Tory voters, not just their opponents' guesses.

Good luck with that. Very few of them even admit to voting tory and even fewer of those that do will state why they do in any great depth.

[Saturday Boy]

I’m amazed that there’s been so many posts.

It was obviously a trick question.

There are no positive reasons for voting Tory in Scotland.

[Pretty Boy]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/14/working-class-tories-are-not-just-turkeys-voting-for-christmas

[DaveF]

I'm not a Tory voter but as someone from the generation whose parents bought their council house (worth not a lot it has to be said) but benefitted from it in later years, I'm now more of a middle class tennis playing twat than a council radge.

Suppose I should vote tory eh :-) but the point being I can perhaps see how people in my position might conveniently forget the thatcher years and vote with Ruth in some sort of protect what I have belief.

Dunno...that's maybe all crap.

[Pretty Boy]

I watched a programme with Ed Balls visiting the Trump heartlands in the US and he opened with the line 'as a politician, it's dangerous to believe the electorate is wrong'.

Whilst I disagree with them I do find it a bit uncomfortable when people tear into 'working class' people who vote Tory, for Trump, for Brexit and so on and so forth. The assumption is often they are 'idiots', 'racist' 'selfish' or whatever else. Of course it's possible many may well fall into one or more of those categories and others. Equally it may be worth considering they are also desperate. From the rust belt of the US to the post industrial Labour heartlands of the UK it's hard to argue that these areas have changed beyond recognition in only 1 or 2 generations. In my work we deal with a company who are based in Stoke, one of the highest Brexit votes in the country. A few weeks back that company went into administration with the loss of over 300 jobs. They were one of the last surviving pottery companies in an area once famed for them and now they are gone. It's an area of high deprivation and poverty and now more jobs have gone at least in part due to cheap alternatives from abroad. It's easy to mock them for believing in a wonderful utopia in which the clock is turned back to an industrial 1950s UK as the workshop of the world. When you have **** all and see few prospects on the horizon with the status quo is it any more stupid than the vote you have religiously cast for Labour for the last 20, 40 or 40 years?

[Fife-Hibee]

I watched a programme with Ed Balls visiting the Trump heartlands in the US and he opened with the line 'as a politician, it's dangerous to believe the electorate is wrong'.

Whilst I disagree with them I do find it a bit uncomfortable when people tear into 'working class' people who vote Tory, for Trump, for Brexit and so on and so forth. The assumption is often they are 'idiots', 'racist' 'selfish' or whatever else. Of course it's possible many may well fall into one or more of those categories and others. Equally it may be worth considering they are also desperate. From the rust belt of the US to the post industrial Labour heartlands of the UK it's hard to argue that these areas have changed beyond recognition in only 1 or 2 generations. In my work we deal with a company who are based in Stoke, one of the highest Brexit votes in the country. A few weeks back that company went into administration with the loss of over 300 jobs. They were one of the last surviving pottery companies in an area once famed for them and now they are gone. It's an area of high deprivation and poverty and now more jobs have gone at least in part due to cheap alternatives from abroad. It's easy to mock them for believing in a wonderful utopia in which the clock is turned back to an industrial 1950s UK as the workshop of the world. When you have **** all and see few prospects on the horizon with the status quo is it any more stupid than the vote you have religiously cast for Labour for the last 20, 40 or 40 years?

That would be a sound argument. If Conservatism wasn't in fact the status quo in the UK. The UK hasn't had a non-conservative government since the 70s. So these "desperate people" are voting for the status quo that is failing them.

[Pretty Boy]

That would be a sound argument. If Conservatism wasn't in fact the status quo in the UK. The UK hasn't had a non-conservative government since the 70s. So these "desperate people" are voting for the status quo that is failing them.

And what does that say about the quality of argument put forward by the alternative throughout the last 40 years?

[pollution]

Funny enough not many willing to engage. I wonder why?


I nearly replied, twice, but scrapped both because I did not want abuse on the subject, to be honest.

[lapsedhibee]

I nearly replied, twice, but scrapped both because I did not want abuse on the subject, to be honest.

Well that's a first for a ******* ******* Tory ******* :panic: :wink:

[Hibbyradge]

I have no intention of judging anyone.

I'm just interested as to why people vote the way they do.

I can think of reasons for voting Labour, SNP, Green and Liberal, and I actually understand why racist parties and Farage's lot garner support, but the Tories appeal to anyone other than the elite genuinely baffles me.

[Fife-Hibee]

And what does that say about the quality of argument put forward by the alternative throughout the last 40 years?

It would suggest that there hasn't really been an alternative.

[Hibbyradge]

I nearly replied, twice, but scrapped both because I did not want abuse on the subject, to be honest.

You should reply anyway. Most people will respect your right to your own political opinions.

I'll report anyone abusing you.

This isn't about right and wrong. I'd just like to understand why the Tories appeal to you.

[Pretty Boy]

You should reply anyway. Most people will respect your right to your own political opinions.

I'll report anyone abusing you.

This isn't about right and wrong. I'd just like to understand why the Tories appeal to you.

I think that's wishful thinking.

I don't doubt your intentions for starting the thread were genuine. However anyone sticking their head above the parapet would be mocked, goaded and ganged up on. The HG isn't about debate for many, no one is going to be persuaded to change their mind, it's a platform for those with the zeal of the converted.

[Hibbyradge]

I think that's wishful thinking.

I don't doubt your intentions for starting the thread were genuine. However anyone sticking their head above the parapet would be mocked, goaded and ganged up on. The HG isn't about debate for many, no one is going to be persuaded to change their mind, it's a platform for those with the zeal of the converted.

Sadly, you're probably right.

[Fife-Hibee]

Mrs Hibremian was brought up in a Christian Democrat family in Hamburg, and often tells me that some people who vote Christian Democrat are actually nice people. I guess that's two reasons for voting "on the right".

Luckily for me she was the black sheep in the family. :greengrin

Christian Conservatism is something i'll never understand. They are polar opposites. The bible preaches equality, fairness and "loving thy neighbour". The politics of the right preaches division, selfishness and kicking your neighbour out their home so you can build a mansion.

So many "good" christians voted for Donald Trump. In fact, they were far more likely to vote for him if they were Christian. Some things just boggle the mind completely.

[Ozyhibby]

I think that's wishful thinking.

I don't doubt your intentions for starting the thread were genuine. However anyone sticking their head above the parapet would be mocked, goaded and ganged up on. The HG isn't about debate for many, no one is going to be persuaded to change their mind, it's a platform for those with the zeal of the converted.

That is very much the case sadly.


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[steakbake]

That would be a sound argument. If Conservatism wasn't in fact the status quo in the UK. The UK hasn't had a non-conservative government since the 70s. So these "desperate people" are voting for the status quo that is failing them.

I find it uncomfortable as an argument because the Leave vote is much more complicated than the easily digestible “marginalised working class” explanation people tend to reach for.

In fact, being in the “squeezed middle” with an intermediate standard of education but with a perception of declining economic standing was more of an indication towards voting Brexit than purely on economic deprivation.

Looking at income, LSE found that voters in the 26-39k per annum salary bracket were more inclined towards voting for Brexit than people on less than 26k.

The likelihood of voting Brexit was higher where people identified as middle class rather than working class. Self categorising middle class 26-39k income were more inclined towards voting for Brexit than self categorising working class voters on the same income.

[Slavers]

I am no way rich in the material sense but I have voted conservative. I have also voted for all party's on occasion if agreed with one specific policy.

My reasons for voting conservative is due to thinking that a large welfare state keeps people poor and addicted to state benefits. It gives the government too much control over their lives.

For example under Labour I knew so many alcoholic, many of whom were on the sick and were essentially getting drinking money to spend in the pub from the government. My big pal Derek was one such person he had not worked in years and was on the sick drinking everyday.

When the conservatives came into power they stopped his benefits as he was deemed fit to work. He was then encouraged to go to college and learn at a cooking course.

He stuck it out he was able to cut back on drinking and the end of the story be became a working man again for the first time in over ten years.

He regained his self respect and now pays for his own pint at the weekend with his hard earned instead of state handouts. He says the pints taste better now. You could see how much that policy change helped him grow and become the man he knew he was.

I think the lefty party's and the big welfare state and big government wants people dependent on benifets so the left wing partys always get their vote.

[Bristolhibby]

Christian Conservatism is something i'll never understand. They are polar opposites. The bible preaches equality, fairness and "loving thy neighbour". The politics of the right preaches division, selfishness and kicking your neighbour out their home so you can build a mansion.

So many "good" christians voted for Donald Trump. In fact, they were far more likely to vote for him if they were Christian. Some things just boggle the mind completely.

I think the narrative there is convince them that their right to be a Christian Consevertive is under threat (from the liberal left, gays, Muslims, etc), then sell yourself as the knight on a white horse coming to protect those values.

Thankfully our Evangelical level is low in the U.K. however the “we are under threat” line is strong. See UKIP, Brexit and the ERG Tories.

J

[lapsedhibee]

I am no way rich in the material sense but I have voted conservative. I have also voted for all party's on occasion if agreed with one specific policy.

My reasons for voting conservative is due to thinking that a large welfare state keeps people poor and addicted to state benefits. It gives the government too much control over their lives.

For example under Labour I knew so many alcoholic, many of whom were on the sick and were essentially getting drinking money to spend in the pub from the government. My big pal Derek was one such person he had not worked in years and was on the sick drinking everyday.

When the conservatives came into power they stopped his benefits as he was deemed fit to work. He was then encouraged to go to college and learn at a cooking course.

He stuck it out he was able to cut back on drinking and the end of the story be became a working man again for the first time in over ten years.

He regained his self respect and now pays for his own pint at the weekend with his hard earned instead of state handouts. He says the pints taste better now. You could see how much that policy change helped him grow and become the man he knew he was.

I think a lefty party's and the big welfare state and big government wants people dependent on benifets so the left wing partys always get their vote.

That's the one thing about the Tory party that I've always thought worthwhile too - an encouragement to self-reliance. Thatch, for example, introduced a very good scheme for unemployed people where they could start their own business and for a year still claim social security payments, enabling a way out of one kind of benefit trap. The recent Tory default mode, however, has just seemed to be whining that every problem is the fault of others: European politicians, immigrants, blablabla.

[Hibrandenburg]

The Tories of bygone years have made a reputation of being tough on crime, supporting our armed forces and having the finger on the pulse regarding national security. That will have gained them many votes in the past however the last 2 decades have destroyed that illusion.

[Fife-Hibee]

That's the one thing about the Tory party that I've always thought worthwhile too - an encouragement to self-reliance. Thatch, for example, introduced a very good scheme for unemployed people where they could start their own business and for a year still claim social security payments, enabling a way out of one kind of benefit trap. The recent Tory default mode, however, has just seemed to be whining that every problem is the fault of others: European politicians, immigrants, blablabla.

:agree:

Once those damn European "Bureaucrats" and immigrants are out of the picture. It will be those damn jocks stealing hard earned English tax payers money.

You can bank on it.

[Rocky]

I am no way rich in the material sense but I have voted conservative. I have also voted for all party's on occasion if agreed with one specific policy.

My reasons for voting conservative is due to thinking that a large welfare state keeps people poor and addicted to state benefits. It gives the government too much control over their lives.

For example under Labour I knew so many alcoholic, many of whom were on the sick and were essentially getting drinking money to spend in the pub from the government. My big pal Derek was one such person he had not worked in years and was on the sick drinking everyday.

When the conservatives came into power they stopped his benefits as he was deemed fit to work. He was then encouraged to go to college and learn at a cooking course.

He stuck it out he was able to cut back on drinking and the end of the story be became a working man again for the first time in over ten years.

He regained his self respect and now pays for his own pint at the weekend with his hard earned instead of state handouts. He says the pints taste better now. You could see how much that policy change helped him grow and become the man he knew he was.

I think the lefty party's and the big welfare state and big government wants people dependent on benifets so the left wing partys always get their vote.

Fair play to you for putting your head above the parapet to actually answer the OP. I disagree with you but the quality of debate and understanding can only improve if all sides views are heard.

[PiemanP]

I vote Tory.

My political compass is slightly right of centre and Tories are most aligned with this.

Views are mostly based around their economic policies: low corporate and personal taxation, smaller state, promote private enterprise and privatisation.

I think it's disgraceful higher tax payers in Scotland pay significantly more tax than their English and Welsh counterparts. Even relatively modest earners (£27k plus or something like that) pay more. I'm a higher rate tax payer.

Also historically been strong on national security. Still the best of the bunch, although the bar isn't high (god knows what terrorist regimes we'd be supporting under Corbyn!)

More recently another reason for me to vote Tory is to preserve the Union. Now I'm not against the idea of an independent Scotland...in fact I like the idea. However the thought of Scotland turning into a socialist utopia scares the life out of me. I think this is how Scotland would turn out after a few years and we'd be in financial ruin.

For info I'm anti-Brexit because I believe the impact on trade will be massive however think the EU has many problems. Also believe the current uncontrolled immigration from the EU is unsustainable and one of our key issues (although not such an issue for Scotland ironically) Immigration is an area I believe the Tories have failed big time since they came into power and is the key reason the Brexit vote went the way it did.

Probably won't respond to this. I've answered the question and I'm sure knowing the political views of most on this forum my response will be attacked left, right and centre which I've no interest in debating.

[Hibbyradge]

Thanks for your reply.

My only comment would be that Scottish people who earn £27k a year take home £1 more than if they live in rUK.

It salaries above £27k which start to pay more. Lower salaries are taxed less.

However, free prescriptions, bridge tolls and free university education etc have to be paid for somehow.

[Moulin Yarns]

I vote Tory.

My political compass is slightly right of centre and Tories are most aligned with this.

Views are mostly based around their economic policies: low corporate and personal taxation, smaller state, promote private enterprise and privatisation.

I think it's disgraceful higher tax payers in Scotland pay significantly more tax than their English and Welsh counterparts. Even relatively modest earners (£27k plus or something like that) pay more. I'm a higher rate tax payer.

Also historically been strong on national security. Still the best of the bunch, although the bar isn't high (god knows what terrorist regimes we'd be supporting under Corbyn!)

More recently another reason for me to vote Tory is to preserve the Union. Now I'm not against the idea of an independent Scotland...in fact I like the idea. However the thought of Scotland turning into a socialist utopia scares the life out of me. I think this is how Scotland would turn out after a few years and we'd be in financial ruin.

For info I'm anti-Brexit because I believe the impact on trade will be massive however think the EU has many problems. Also believe the current uncontrolled immigration from the EU is unsustainable and one of our key issues (although not such an issue for Scotland ironically) Immigration is an area I believe the Tories have failed big time since they came into power and is the key reason the Brexit vote went the way it did.

Probably won't respond to this. I've answered the question and I'm sure knowing the political views of most on this forum my response will be attacked left, right and centre which I've no interest in debating.

Well done. I respect your views, in the main, however the immigration issue is one that needs addressing. If there are fewer people willing to do the menial tasks, hospitality and agriculture, who will step in to fill the gaps? Also how many in the NHS are you willing to lose?

Currently more migrants come from outside the EU so can be controlled.

[Fife-Hibee]

I vote Tory.

My political compass is slightly right of centre and Tories are most aligned with this.

Views are mostly based around their economic policies: low corporate and personal taxation, smaller state, promote private enterprise and privatisation.

I think it's disgraceful higher tax payers in Scotland pay significantly more tax than their English and Welsh counterparts. Even relatively modest earners (£27k plus or something like that) pay more. I'm a higher rate tax payer.

Also historically been strong on national security. Still the best of the bunch, although the bar isn't high (god knows what terrorist regimes we'd be supporting under Corbyn!)

More recently another reason for me to vote Tory is to preserve the Union. Now I'm not against the idea of an independent Scotland...in fact I like the idea. However the thought of Scotland turning into a socialist utopia scares the life out of me. I think this is how Scotland would turn out after a few years and we'd be in financial ruin.

For info I'm anti-Brexit because I believe the impact on trade will be massive however think the EU has many problems. Also believe the current uncontrolled immigration from the EU is unsustainable and one of our key issues (although not such an issue for Scotland ironically) Immigration is an area I believe the Tories have failed big time since they came into power and is the key reason the Brexit vote went the way it did.

Probably won't respond to this. I've answered the question and I'm sure knowing the political views of most on this forum my response will be attacked left, right and centre which I've no interest in debating.

They pay slightly more. But don't have private healthcare bills to worry about should they ever fall ill. Would you be happy forking out tens of thousands for healthcare like they do in the US, just so you annual tax bill was a little bit smaller?

I also don't understand your claim of Conservatives being "historically strong on national security". The security of a nation is in deeper peril when you cut the police force down to it's bare bones which is pretty much what the Conservatives have done in England and Wales. They may have increased spending on the ministry of defence, but it's all going towards one project. A project that arguably puts the nation at more risk than the protection it's intended to provide.

You say you have nothing against the idea of an independent Scotland, but refuse to back it because you think it will become some "socialist utopia". Something that can't happen unless the people of Scotland choose for it to happen. Quite insulting to the intelligence of your fellow residents of this country. Are england of higher political intellect than we are? Is that why we must stay in political union with them?

As for uncontrolled immigration. I can see how that would be a problem, if Scotlands population was out of control. But if you look at Scotlands national population over the past century, it has remained relatively stagnant. EU membership hasn't exactly inflated those figures to any great degree. What we are seeing however is a higher concentration of people around the main cities, but this is coming at the cost of dropping populations around smaller towns and rural areas. Not really anything to do with the European Union.

It's a shame you won't respond. If you don't partake in any meaningful political debate, then how can your views be challenged? How can you challenge the views of others? You can't change the world without changing minds. Everything just stays the same.

[Ozyhibby]

I vote Tory.

My political compass is slightly right of centre and Tories are most aligned with this.

Views are mostly based around their economic policies: low corporate and personal taxation, smaller state, promote private enterprise and privatisation.

I think it's disgraceful higher tax payers in Scotland pay significantly more tax than their English and Welsh counterparts. Even relatively modest earners (£27k plus or something like that) pay more. I'm a higher rate tax payer.

Also historically been strong on national security. Still the best of the bunch, although the bar isn't high (god knows what terrorist regimes we'd be supporting under Corbyn!)

More recently another reason for me to vote Tory is to preserve the Union. Now I'm not against the idea of an independent Scotland...in fact I like the idea. However the thought of Scotland turning into a socialist utopia scares the life out of me. I think this is how Scotland would turn out after a few years and we'd be in financial ruin.

For info I'm anti-Brexit because I believe the impact on trade will be massive however think the EU has many problems. Also believe the current uncontrolled immigration from the EU is unsustainable and one of our key issues (although not such an issue for Scotland ironically) Immigration is an area I believe the Tories have failed big time since they came into power and is the key reason the Brexit vote went the way it did.

Probably won't respond to this. I've answered the question and I'm sure knowing the political views of most on this forum my response will be attacked left, right and centre which I've no interest in debating.

Decent post and a lot of your views are similar to mine.
Couple of things though, although income tax is slightly higher, council tax is a lot lower. Mostly balanced out plus you get a lot more for your money in Scotland.
As for Scotland becoming a socialist utopia, I think there is no chance. Scots are more right wing than they care to admit. Corbyn is a lot less popular in Scotland than he is in England.
Economically I would describe myself as right of centre although I’m very much a Liberal socially.
In an independent Scotland I could easily see myself voting for a centre right party.


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[Smartie]

What I've come to think over the past few years is that there are Tories and then there are Tories. As the party does its best to pull itself to pieces, you are seeing the genuinely nasty element of the party separate from the more moderate part. I've quite liked Dominic Grieve throughout the whole Brexit process and I've often found myself nodding along with Michael Heseltine, Ken Clarke and others. They just seem a million miles away from Rees Mogg and the rest.

My work experiences have made me more sympathetic to certain more small c conservative ways of thinking. The NHS in this country is a national religion, and it is bordering on blasphemy when you choose to criticise it but there are parts of the NHS in parts of the UK which are letting people down very badly. The Tories are more to blame for the problems than anyone, as they know the political damage that is associated with the word "privatisation" so instead prefer to affect change by killing services with cuts rather than outright privatisation which is a vote killer. We don't like the idea of anyone making money from our healthcare, but as someone who has tried to provide services both on the NHS and privately, let's just say that it is far easier to provide a standard of care that you are proud of, that patients value and respect, when you have adequate resources in order to do so and they are on too many occasions just not available on the NHS.It is also easier when it is as direct as possible, without having to carry layers of parasitic bureaucracy, ridiculous regulation and all sorts of other hangers on - basically, it can actually end up more cost-effective. I am not against the NHS, exactly the opposite, but I think the most important parts of it MUST retain adequate funding and we should be more open to the idea of privatisation of other parts of it as in so many ways healthcare works better in the private sector - ask anyone who has had to seek emergency treatment in parts of mainland Europe.. Most people have a horrific fear that we'll end up in a "Breaking Bad" type situation where we have to resort to extreme measures in order to fund unaffordable healthcare, and we must always look after the most vulnerable in our society, but we aren't very good at having an adult conversation about how we fund very important things, instead preferring to vote for who offers the most free stuff. When you see how it works in your own area of expertise, you wonder about how it might work in others.

The problem we have is the level of inequality that exists, particularly in Scotland. It is a scandal that poverty still exists in a nation that is so rich in practically every type of resource. When everyone has a genuine equality of opportunity in life, I think it is more reasonable to take a smaller state, conservative approach. The problem we have is that we still have so many poor people, so many people who have been left so far behind that it is callous and cruel to blame people for situations that are not of their making and then try to remove (or weaken) other critical services (eg bedroom tax). Above that level, the vast majority of folk are struggling by at a level where it's not exactly poverty but it takes a big effort to keep one step ahead of it - again, a ridiculous situation in a country as potentially prosperous as Scotland is.

There are large parts of England where Tory policy actually makes sense. People don't vote Tory because they are evil, but when there is generally more than enough to go round, it is quite a good way to run a country. The problem is, it isn't a very good way to govern when there isn't enough to go round and it can be particularly cruel on the weak, the vulnerable or the poor.

Most folk probably vote Tory out of simple self-interest, they are people who have enough and the Tories will leave them with the most in their own pocket once tax has been taken away.

I'd be open to voting for a centre-right party in an independent Scotland. I'll never, ever, under any circumstances vote for the Conservative Unionist party at Westminster, whereas under certain conditions (that so far in my voting life haven't arisen) I'd consider voting LibDem or Labour.

[Tornadoes70]

We all know why Ingish votes Labour.

He's told us as nauseum that despite their falling popularity and, it seems, relevance, he supports them because they "seek to protect the NHS, benefits, provide quality homes for those who're out-with the housing market, jobs, pensions and to change the UK for the better for the many not the few".

Although the reality is sadly somewhat different to those laudable high ideals, at least we know his reasons.

What reasons do people on here have for voting Tory?

It was lgnsh :confused:

However, I feel a little bit humbled at your take on my posting for the good Labour party :aok:

Its without doubt I feel our party is best placed to serve the good folk of Scotland with our time served left of center socialism that protects jobs, front-line services such as the NHS, social care, benefits for the vulnerable and poorest in society, quality social housing, education at all levels, climate change etc etc.

The only good reason for voting Tory would be to remind folk that there are parties and folk out there who couldn't care less about the working class, poorest and vulnerable in society, the homeless and the ill who can't work etc. They would also cut state spending to the absolute bare bones so to speak as they do not believe in the state.

Its only because of Labour that there is an NHS, state benefits for the poor and most vulnerable, Unions that strive to protect jobs and wages, pensions, education etc etc.

Jeremy Corbyn is in favour of mass re-nationalisation across the board which is why he is mainly opposed to the EU as it is a capitalist self serving entity that is all about promoting mainly German and French companies which would make JC's task much more difficult.

[Fife-Hibee]

What I don't understand about the NHS privitization argument is that it's been going since 1948. How did they fund a fully public healthcare service back then? Why can't it be cost covered now in 2019?

What has changed to make it so unmanagable now?

[Fife-Hibee]

It was lgnsh :confused:

However, I feel a little bit humbled at your take on my posting for the good Labour party :aok:

Its without doubt I feel our party is best placed to serve the good folk of Scotland with our time served left of center socialism that protects jobs, front-line services such as the NHS, social care, benefits for the vulnerable and poorest in society, quality social housing, education at all levels, climate change etc etc.

The only good reason for voting Tory would be to remind folk that there are parties and folk out there who couldn't care less about the working class, poorest and vulnerable in society, the homeless and the ill who can't work etc. They would also cut state spending to the absolute bare bones so to speak as they do not believe in the state.

Its only because of Labour that there is an NHS, state benefits for the poor and most vulnerable, Unions that strive to protect jobs and wages, pensions, education etc etc.

Jeremy Corbyn is in favour of mass re-nationalisation across the board which is why he is mainly opposed to the EU as it is a capitalist self serving entity that is all about promoting mainly German and French companies which would make JC's task much more difficult.

Corbyn must be super popular then. :agree:

https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/jeremy-corbyns-satisfaction-ratings-fall-historic-low

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/35/26/5a/35265adf395dd18fec9b1833933e0a23.jpg

[Smartie]

What I don't understand about the NHS privitization argument is that it's been going since 1948. How did they fund a fully public healthcare service back then? Why can't it be cost covered now in 2019?

What has changed to make it so unmanagable now?

Technology improves - and costs money.

Diseases evolve. Some are cured, new ones emerge. Some require management at great cost over long periods.

Expectations change.

The NHS today is very different to the NHS of 1948.

Expertise and research costs money.

Manpower needs can vary over time.

[GlesgaeHibby]

It was lgnsh :confused:

However, I feel a little bit humbled at your take on my posting for the good Labour party :aok:

Its without doubt I feel our party is best placed to serve the good folk of Scotland with our time served left of center socialism that protects jobs, front-line services such as the NHS, social care, benefits for the vulnerable and poorest in society, quality social housing, education at all levels, climate change etc etc.

The only good reason for voting Tory would be to remind folk that there are parties and folk out there who couldn't care less about the working class, poorest and vulnerable in society, the homeless and the ill who can't work etc. They would also cut state spending to the absolute bare bones so to speak as they do not believe in the state.

Its only because of Labour that there is an NHS, state benefits for the poor and most vulnerable, Unions that strive to protect jobs and wages, pensions, education etc etc.

Jeremy Corbyn is in favour of mass re-nationalisation across the board which is why he is mainly opposed to the EU as it is a capitalist self serving entity that is all about promoting mainly German and French companies which would make JC's task much more difficult.

Why then have no labour government left office with unemployment lower than when they came to office? It's always higher.

Again, as pointed out previously it is the SNP that is delivering the single biggest investment in affordable housing since devolution over this parliamentary term.

The Labour party of the NHS was to be admired. This lot have no credibility at all.

Back on topic, interesting to note views on tax by those voting Conservative. I'd quite happily pay a little more tax if it meant delivering first class public services across health, education etc.

[Hibbyradge]

Technology improves - and costs money.

Diseases evolve. Some are cured, new ones emerge. Some require management at great cost over long periods.

Expectations change.

The NHS today is very different to the NHS of 1948.

Expertise and research costs money.

Manpower needs can vary over time.

People are living a lot longer than they were in 1948.

Life expectancy was less than 65 for men. It's now 80.

[Fife-Hibee]

Technology improves - and costs money.

Diseases evolve. Some are cured, new ones emerge. Some require management at great cost over long periods.

Expectations change.

The NHS today is very different to the NHS of 1948.

Expertise and research costs money.

Manpower needs can vary over time.

Technology does improve. But is it really any more expensive now than it was back then? Technology is always pricey for it's time period when it's new to that period.

Expertise and research cost money back then as well.

I'm pretty sure the highest earners being taxed somewhere in the region of 90% helped out somewhat.

[Hibbyradge]

It was lgnsh :confused:

However, I feel a little bit humbled at your take on my posting for the good Labour party

Don't feel humbled.

It was a cut and paste from one of your previous ramblings.

[Fife-Hibee]

People are living a lot longer than they were in 1948.

Life expectancy was less than 65 for men. It's now 80.

Retirement ages are also higher. Meaning people continue to pay income tax to a later age which should make up for this.

[Bristolhibby]

Technology improves - and costs money.

Diseases evolve. Some are cured, new ones emerge. Some require management at great cost over long periods.

Expectations change.

The NHS today is very different to the NHS of 1948.

Expertise and research costs money.

Manpower needs can vary over time.

Plus people are living longer due to better healthcare. Significantly more expensive to keep your Grandad going aged 98 than 50 years ago, where he’d be dead by 68 from back breaking work, terrible living conditions, drinking like a fish and smoking like a chimney.

This all costs money. We should expect to pay more into the NHS, we’ve all got 30 more years of life to be lived.

J

[Tornadoes70]

Why then have no labour government left office with unemployment lower than when they came to office? It's always higher.

Again, as pointed out previously it is the SNP that is delivering the single biggest investment in affordable housing since devolution over this parliamentary term.

The Labour party of the NHS was to be admired. This lot have no credibility at all.

Back on topic, interesting to note views on tax by those voting Conservative. I'd quite happily pay a little more tax if it meant delivering first class public services across health, education etc.

The snp are a tiny small minded nationalistic entity that has no idea or experience in running a country. They're a shower of tories. The sooner folk realise that, the safer Scotland's public services, education, NHS, jobs, security, pensions etc will be.

Be honest now, you couldn't care less about Scotland, for you it's about separation from the rest of the UK?

I care about Scotland and our folk within and we'd be far better off in absence of risking everything on the unknown gamble that is the nationalistic snp.

[Bristolhibby]

The snp are a tiny small minded nationalistic entity that has no idea or experience in running a country. They're a shower of tories. The sooner folk realise that, the safer Scotland's public services, education, NHS, jobs, security, pensions etc will be.

Be honest now, you couldn't care less about Scotland, for you it's about separation from the rest of the UK?

I care about Scotland and our folk within and we'd be far better off in absence of risking everything on the unknown gamble that is the nationalistic snp.

Don't know how to run a country? Shower of Tories?

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/26028065/right.jpg

[Fife-Hibee]

The snp are a tiny small minded nationalistic entity that has no idea or experience in running a country. They're a shower of tories. The sooner folk realise that, the safer Scotland's public services, education, NHS, jobs, security, pensions etc will be.

Be honest now, you couldn't care less about Scotland, for you it's about separation from the rest of the UK?

I care about Scotland and our folk within and we'd be far better off in absence of risking everything on the unknown gamble that is the nationalistic snp.

But you're happy to risk everything on the unknown gamble of brexit.

[Tornadoes70]

Don't feel humbled.

It was a cut and paste from one of your previous ramblings.

Aw okay,

@put back into my box.

:greengrin

[Tornadoes70]

But you're happy to risk everything on the unknown gamble of brexit.

He just rankled me a bit there piling in like that. Probably had a glass or two, nothing wrong with that mind you being a Friday night :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

Well, the purpose of the thread lasted about 24 hours.

[GlesgaeHibby]

The snp are a tiny small minded nationalistic entity that has no idea or experience in running a country. They're a shower of tories. The sooner folk realise that, the safer Scotland's public services, education, NHS, jobs, security, pensions etc will be.

Be honest now, you couldn't care less about Scotland, for you it's about separation from the rest of the UK?

I care about Scotland and our folk within and we'd be far better off in absence of risking everything on the unknown gamble that is the nationalistic snp.

Thanks for the constructive reply that ignored points raised.

I do care about Scotland, and I do think Scotland is best served as a small self governing nation within the EU free to make our own choices. Such as getting rid of trident nuclear weapons.

I'm not an SNP loyalist either. I think as a governing party they are doing largely ok, although education needs to improve and I'm fed up hearing that our NHS is outperforming England and Wales as an excuse for poor performance. I have personally benefited from a number of SNP's policy choices such as free tuition fees and free prescriptions.

As a remain voter, and indy supporter there is only one party I can vote for at present.

[Tornadoes70]

Thanks for the constructive reply that ignored points raised.

I do care about Scotland, and I do think Scotland is best served as a small self governing nation within the EU free to make our own choices. Such as getting rid of trident nuclear weapons.

I'm not an SNP loyalist either. I think as a governing party they are doing largely ok, although education needs to improve and I'm fed up hearing that our NHS is outperforming England and Wales as an excuse for poor performance. I have personally benefited from a number of SNP's policy choices such as free tuition fees and free prescriptions.

As a remain voter, and indy supporter there is only one party I can vote for at present.

Actually a decent well thought out reply.

You were probably an ex Labour voter who hated Blairism.

I hope you realise that the free stuff is very likely to be junked post any separatism/independence. The EU that's run by Germany and France is not a free loading entity, ask Greece.

Absolutely everything will change post separatism/independence as we'd have to cut state spending and be EU convergent. The English and Welsh would probably want as little to do with us as possible with a likely hard border put in place. The English and Welsh could easily say well you the snp fought hard for a border when you were within the UK you can remain up there as much as you want as we no longer want you coming down here etc etc.

Its fraught with unknowns and for me we do well out of being part of the UK with a fantastic NHS etc.

[Fife-Hibee]

Actually a decent well thought out reply.

You were probably an ex Labour voter who hated Blairism.

I hope you realise that the free stuff is very likely to be junked post any separatism/independence. The EU that's run by Germany and France is not a free loading entity, ask Greece.

Absolutely everything will change post separatism/independence as we'd have to cut state spending and be EU convergent. The English and Welsh would probably want as little to do with us as possible with a likely hard border put in place. The English and Welsh could easily say well you the snp fought hard for a border when you were within the UK you can remain up there as much as you want as we no longer want you coming down here etc etc.

Its fraught with unknowns and for me we do well out of being part of the UK with a fantastic NHS etc.

Well it's going to be real tough recieving those barrels over the resurrected Hadrians Wall. At least the water pipes are underground. :cb

[Hibbyradge]

Retirement ages are also higher. Meaning people continue to pay income tax to a later age which should make up for this.

Why do you ask a question if you already know your preferred answer?

Is it just because you want to argue with folk? :dunno:

As people live longer, they rely more and more on the NHS regardless of whether they're working or not.

However, retirement age has increased relatively recently and most of the folk affected haven't reached state pension age yet.

You also have to take account of the fact that pensions are being paid for longer too.

Unemployment in 1948 was about 1% and disability benefits were non existent.

Taxation on everyone was higher. I was paying 33% when I started work as a junior in an office. Those days are gone.

There's no one simple answer.

[Tornadoes70]

Well it's going to be real tough recieving those barrels over the resurrected Hadrians Wall. At least the water pipes are underground. :cb

When you acrimoniously divorce from your long term partner they would normally literally cross the road to avoid you unless it was to berate you in some form or another. Why would England and Wales not shut the border or at least make it much more difficult for Scots who separated from them?

[Fife-Hibee]

When you acrimoniously divorce from your long term partner they would normally literally cross the road to avoid you unless it was to berate you in some form or another. Why would England and Wales not shut the border or at least make it much more difficult for Scots who separated from them?

Because they'd be cutting of their nose to spite their face.

If you honestly think this would be the case, then why are they in no great rush to pull up a wall between the Republic and Northern Ireland?

[Just Alf]

When you acrimoniously divorce from your long term partner they would normally literally cross the road to avoid you unless it was to berate you in some form or another. Why would England and Wales not shut the border or at least make it much more difficult for Scots who separated from them?Possibly they may want to protect their currency and be seen to be a country that can be traded with?

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[Tornadoes70]

Possibly they may want to protect their currency and be seen to be a country that can be traded with?

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Eh?

[Fife-Hibee]

Why do you ask a question if you already know your preferred answer?

Is it just because you want to argue with folk? :dunno:

As people live longer, they rely more and more on the NHS regardless of whether they're working or not.

However, retirement age has increased relatively recently and most of the folk affected haven't reached state pension age yet.

You also have to take account of the fact that pensions are being paid for longer too.

Unemployment in 1948 was about 1% and disability benefits were non existent.

Taxation on everyone was higher. I was paying 33% when I started work as a junior in an office. Those days are gone.

There's no one simple answer.

Because even when you have your own prefered answer to a question, you still want to hear other peoples answers. Is that ok? :aok:

[Just Alf]

Eh?Just reread my post and your original one... And.... Eh?

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[Tornadoes70]

Because they'd be cutting of their nose to spite their face.

If you honestly think this would be the case, then why are they in no great rush to pull up a wall between the Republic and Northern Ireland?

England's a 'big' country mate. It doesn't need Scotland but the UK is an entity that punches above its weight. Little Scotland would soon find its place, not a place that you somehow imagine it to be.

No disrespect Fife because I'm growing to like you and your'e very naive but likeable view of the wider world.

:aok:

[Fife-Hibee]

England's a 'big' country mate. It doesn't need Scotland but the UK is an entity that punches above its weight. Little Scotland would soon find its place, not a place that you somehow imagine it to be.

No disrespect Fife because I'm growing to like you and your'e very naive but likeable view of the wider world.

:aok:

Thanks for completely failing to address my response.

It doesn't need Scotland, but it needs the Republic or Ireland (a successful independent country within the EU)?

Perhaps you should point England out to yourself on a world map. It's really not that 'big'.

[The Modfather]

When you acrimoniously divorce from your long term partner they would normally literally cross the road to avoid you unless it was to berate you in some form or another. Why would England and Wales not shut the border or at least make it much more difficult for Scots who separated from them?

Will Wales and England (what about N.Ireland?) really cut their nose off to spite their face and “shut the border”? Where will they import goods from when the EU “shuts the border” on England & Wales?

[Tornadoes70]

Thanks for completely failing to address my response.

It doesn't need Scotland, but it needs the Republic or Ireland (a successful independent country within the EU)?

Perhaps you should point England out to yourself on a world map. It's really not that 'big'.

Its massive as a trading nation Fife. Folk look to London and England and that wouldn't change no matter if we up here in Scotland separate from the UK or not. In fact we'd likely become a complete nonentity altogether within a group of how many 27 countries that has Germany and France at its center.

We'd go from being a big part of the UK which does do well in the wider world to being a tiny part of the EU set adrift from our island neighbours England and Wales.

its just the truth mate.

[Tornadoes70]

Will Wales and England (what about N.Ireland?) really cut their nose off to spite their face and “shut the border”? Where will they import goods from when the EU “shuts the border” on England & Wales?

Its entirely subjective.

If we separate from England and Wales there's no guarantee whatsoever they would allow us into their countries without passports.

Nationalism tends to lend itself to shutting of doors.

[Fife-Hibee]

Its massive as a trading nation Fife. Folk look to London and England and that wouldn't change no matter if we up here in Scotland separate from the UK or not. In fact we'd likely become a complete nonentity altogether within a group of how many 27 countries that has Germany and France at its center.

We'd go from being a big part of the UK which does do well in the wider world to being a tiny part of the EU set adrift from our island neighbours England and Wales.

its just the truth mate.

What will London have left to trade with considering all of the major industries that are pulling out over Brexit? Why do you think London is considerably more pro-EU relative to everywhere else in England?

We'll go from being a big part of the UK which DID do well in the world to an independent country within the EU that England will heavily rely on for European and Scottish imports.

[The Modfather]

Its entirely subjective.

If we separate from England and Wales there's no guarantee whatsoever they would allow us into their countries without passports.

Nationalism tends to lend itself to shutting of doors.

The two Ireland’s seem to manage just fine crossing backwards and forwards. Why would we be any different with our geographical border with England?

[Hibbyradge]

Because even when you have your own prefered answer to a question, you still want to hear other peoples answers. Is that ok? :aok:

That would be fine if you listened to their answers Instead of berating them.

Listening does not mean preparing to argue.

[Fife-Hibee]

That would be fine if you listened to their answers Instead of berating them.

Listening does not mean preparing to argue.

Disagreeing and giving my reasons for doing so is not "berating". Would you rather I just pretended to agree?

[Tornadoes70]

What will London have left to trade with considering all of the major industries that are pulling out over Brexit? Why do you think London is considerably more pro-EU relative to everywhere else in England?

We'll go from being a big part of the UK which DID do well in the world to an independent country within the EU that England will heavily rely on for European and Scottish imports.

If you want to vote for a party that hook line and sinker will ultimately be run by Germany and France so be it mate. Me i'd rather fight for the poor and underpriviliged, working classes, education, pensions etc etc led by the time served party such as Labour is. The snp will say literally anything but the tartan tories would in order to separate us from the UK.

[Fife-Hibee]

If you want to vote for a party that hook line and sinker will ultimately be run by Germany and France so be it mate. Me i'd rather fight for the poor and underpriviliged, working classes, education, pensions etc etc led by a long time served party such as the Labour Party.

The snp will say literally anything but the tartan tories would.

Where is your evidence that Scotland would be run by Germany and France?

Are you suggesting that Germany and France reign supreme over the European Parliament? Because last time I checked, the only union that has an unelected entity that can overrule parliament is the United Kingdom.

[Tornadoes70]

The two Ireland’s seem to manage just fine crossing backwards and forwards. Why would we be any different with our geographical border with England?

I understand the separatists want to pretend things would remain relatively the same in the event of separatism. However, most rational folk realise nothing would.

Just now we have a long time union in place. In the event of separating from that everything is merely subjective.

No guarantees that England and Wales would not subject us to passport controls or worse.

Your'e a massive gamble Modfather. Remaining within the UK which serves us very well isn't!

Why would us Scots that have long time had a good deal from England and Wales separate from it other than it being a massive gamble?

Tell us please.

[Tornadoes70]

Where is your evidence that Scotland would be run by Germany and France?

Are you suggesting that Germany and France reign supreme over the European Parliament? Because last time I checked, the only union that has an unelected entity that can overrule parliament is the United Kingdom.

If you don't think Germany and France are the big guns who do you think actually rules the EU?

How much actual decision making would happen if all 27 countries had an equal voice?

None probably.

Be realistic, most folk are you know.

[The Modfather]

I understand the separatists want to pretend things would remain relatively the same in the event of separatism. However, most rational folk realise nothing would.

Just now we have a long time union in place. In the event of separating from that everything is merely subjective.

No guarantees that England and Wales would not subject us to passport controls or worse.

Your'e a massive gamble Modfather. Remaining within the UK which serves us very well isn't!

Why would us Scots that have long time had a good deal from England and Wales separate from it other than it being a massive gamble?

Tell us please.

It’s as much a gamble to stay in a UK moving into uncharted territory and more likely than not leaving the EU with a no deal as it is becoming independent and staying in the EU.

No one can say how the UK will look or how prosperous it will be in 10 years. Same as no one can say how Scotland would look 10 years into independence. Whatever road anyone chooses now is fraught with risk and uncertainty.

[Fife-Hibee]

If you don't think Germany and France are the big guns who do you think actually rules the EU?

How much actual decision making would happen if all 27 countries had an equal voice?

None probably.

Be realistic, most folk are you know.

In what way do Germany and France manipulate the political framework of the European Parliament in order to "rule" the EU? The parliamentary system simply doesn't allow for it.

Stating that they do, doesn't make it true. You need to actually back it up by showing how they game the European political system in order to ensure all decisions fall in their favour.

[Tornadoes70]

In what way do Germany and France manipulate the political framework of the European Parliament in order to "rule" the EU? The parliamentary system simply doesn't allow for it.

Stating that they do, doesn't make it true. You need to actually back it up by showing how they game the European political system in order to ensure all decisions fall in their favour.

I could easily say why do you think England rules the UK? Of course there are leaders whether its England within the UK or Germany and France within the EU or the US within the Western world.

Are you naive for a reason?

Just like dunfermline is the capital of Fife?

You were likeable prove you were again please.

[Tornadoes70]

It’s as much a gamble to stay in a UK moving into uncharted territory and more likely than not leaving the EU with a no deal as it is becoming independent and staying in the EU.

No one can say how the UK will look or how prosperous it will be in 10 years. Same as no one can say how Scotland would look 10 years into independence. Whatever road anyone chooses now is fraught with risk and uncertainty.

You sir are a 100/1 gamble. One that I would shy well clear of.

[Fife-Hibee]

I could easily say why do you think England rules the UK? Of course there are leaders whether its England within the UK or Germany and France within the EU or the US within the Western world.

Are you naive for a reason?

Just like dunfermline is the capital of Fife?

You were likeable prove you were again please.

Where did I say "England rules the UK"? Westminster rules the UK, overseen by an unelected House of Lords and Head of State (the queen). The EU has neither of these things. Each tier of the European Parliament is elected. We elect the MEPs and those MEPS that we elect, elect those at the very top.

Here is a video that can hopefully explain it to you in simple terms you can understand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4Uu5eyN6VU

[Tornadoes70]

Where did I say "England rules the UK"? Westminster rules the UK, overseen by an unelected House of Lords and Head of State (the queen). The EU has neither of these things. Each tier of the European Parliament is elected. We elect the MEPs and those MEPS that we elect, elect those at the very top.

Here is a video that can hopefully explain it to you in simple terms you can understand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4Uu5eyN6VUs

Nae disrespect Fife

Why don't you look at JC and his renationalisation program.

It would stand you in much greater ground because snp isolation does Scotland no good whatsoever mate.

You're a likeable guy, get on board the left of center JC train that is a coming.

[Fife-Hibee]

Why don't you look at JC and his renationalisation program.

Just how well do you think his renationalisation program would go in a minority government (like the SNP has at Holyrood)? :greengrin

[Tornadoes70]

Just how well do you think his renationalisation program would go in a minority government (like the SNP has at Holyrood)? :greengrin

The Tartan Tories - Snp.

All aboard the JC juggernaut.

JC is the man, no doubt whatsoever.

[marinello59]

The Tartan Tories - Snp.

All aboard the JC juggernaut.

JC is the man, no doubt whatsoever.

Hallelujah.

[RyeSloan]

What I don't understand about the NHS privitization argument is that it's been going since 1948. How did they fund a fully public healthcare service back then? Why can't it be cost covered now in 2019?

What has changed to make it so unmanagable now?

It’s called Baumol’s cost disease.

[Hibbyradge]

Disagreeing and giving my reasons for doing so is not "berating". Would you rather I just pretended to agree?

Read some of your posts again.

Your tone is always aggressive, superior and dismissive. Always.

And, given that a good part of what you say is made up nonsense, you're quite clearly not interested in genuine, adult discussion which is what I hoped we would get when I started this thread.

So yes, it is berating. And it has become very tedious.

[lapsedhibee]

s

Nae disrespect Fife

Why don't you look at JC and his renationalisation program.

It would stand you in much greater ground because snp isolation does Scotland no good whatsoever mate.

You're a likeable guy, get on board the left of center JC train that is a coming.
Or a going. Or a standing still.

[Hibbyradge]

Or a going. Or a standing still.

And it's ram packed.

[ronaldo7]

The Tartan Tories - Snp.

All aboard the JC juggernaut.

JC is the man, no doubt whatsoever.

Is it still the Red Tories, or have they moved to the Red Brexiteers?😳

On the subject of the op, I can't think of any positives for that party, sorry.

[Moulin Yarns]

I think that's wishful thinking.

I don't doubt your intentions for starting the thread were genuine. However anyone sticking their head above the parapet would be mocked, goaded and ganged up on. The HG isn't about debate for many, no one is going to be persuaded to change their mind, it's a platform for those with the zeal of the converted.

So it has been proved. If only those posters, and I include myself in this, that oppose Conservative Party policies had restrained themselves from posting and instead tried to read the post from those who do support Tory party policies then this thread wouldn't have degenerated quickly into the usual tribal Labour/SNP arguments.

It is interesting though that James310, possibly the strongest Tory (anti-SNP) poster, has not posted on this thread,

[G B Young]

I vote Tory.

My political compass is slightly right of centre and Tories are most aligned with this.

Views are mostly based around their economic policies: low corporate and personal taxation, smaller state, promote private enterprise and privatisation.

I think it's disgraceful higher tax payers in Scotland pay significantly more tax than their English and Welsh counterparts. Even relatively modest earners (£27k plus or something like that) pay more. I'm a higher rate tax payer.

Also historically been strong on national security. Still the best of the bunch, although the bar isn't high (god knows what terrorist regimes we'd be supporting under Corbyn!)

More recently another reason for me to vote Tory is to preserve the Union. Now I'm not against the idea of an independent Scotland...in fact I like the idea. However the thought of Scotland turning into a socialist utopia scares the life out of me. I think this is how Scotland would turn out after a few years and we'd be in financial ruin.

For info I'm anti-Brexit because I believe the impact on trade will be massive however think the EU has many problems. Also believe the current uncontrolled immigration from the EU is unsustainable and one of our key issues (although not such an issue for Scotland ironically) Immigration is an area I believe the Tories have failed big time since they came into power and is the key reason the Brexit vote went the way it did.

Probably won't respond to this. I've answered the question and I'm sure knowing the political views of most on this forum my response will be attacked left, right and centre which I've no interest in debating.

Agree with a lot of what you say there. In the main I've voted Labour down the years, with an occasional vote for the Lib Dems, but like many who would usually vote Labour I voted Conservative for the first time in the 2016 Scottish Parliamentary Election primarily because I was impressed by Ruth Davidson as by far the most coherent and effective campaigner when it came to taking on the SNP and their determination to force another independence referendum. They knew they would never win the election but did an impressive job by positioning themselves as the party capable of holding the SNP to account. The Scottish Tories began that campaign a distant third in the polls but ended up leaving Labour in their slipstream and repeated the trick at the following year's General Election.

I'm also a fan of Davidson because of her down to earth personality and the fact she can't be pigeon-holed as a stereotypical Tory. She's a terrific asset to her party and while I oppose independence, I actually think the Scottish Tories could thrive in an independent Scotland. As others on here as observed, we are at heart a more conservative (small c) nation than many like to admit.

Looking at the wider picture, I began to drift away from Labour very soon after Jeremy Corbyn became leader of the party. His 'for the many not the few' mantra is a thinly disguised call for class war and his poisonous cohorts from the ultra-left are like fossils from the 1970s and 80s. A 'gentler, kinder politics' my erse.

Corbyn's incompetence and all-round incoherence should have seen him step down along with Theresa May in the wake of the Euro elections. For a main party of opposition to fail to land a glove on the most shambolic Tory government in many a year is quite staggering. Fortunately there's no evidence down the decades that UK as a whole has ever embraced the politics of Corbyn and his cohorts, because I think the only event that could see my reconsider my opposition to independence would be his election as PM.

While I voted remain in 2016, I can't back the Lib Dem stance on Brexit. The 'people's vote' has already been held.

As for the SNP, I loathe nationalism and the division it sows, never better exemplified by the independence referendum.

The Greens? I guess they're OK but I cannae stand Patrick Harvey so I guess that maybe just comes down to a personality issue.

A Tory voter by default then? Perhaps, but then I was never much bothered for politics until forced to take notice in 2014 - another black mark against the SNP in my book. I certainly didn't see that time as the joyous expression of democracy in action some would have us believe. More like a bitter, unwanted period in our nation's history whose legacy has dogged us ever since.

[Bristolhibby]

actually a decent well thought out reply.

You were probably an ex labour voter who hated blairism.

I hope you realise that the free stuff is very likely to be junked post any separatism/independence. The eu that's run by germany and france is not a free loading entity, ask greece.

Absolutely everything will change post separatism/independence as we'd have to cut state spending and be eu convergent. The english and welsh would probably want as little to do with us as possible with a likely hard border put in place. The english and welsh could easily say well you the snp fought hard for a border when you were within the uk you can remain up there as much as you want as we no longer want you coming down here etc etc.

Its fraught with unknowns and for me we do well out of being part of the uk with a fantastic nhs etc.

again, we are not greece!

[Bristolhibby]

When you acrimoniously divorce from your long term partner they would normally literally cross the road to avoid you unless it was to berate you in some form or another. Why would England and Wales not shut the border or at least make it much more difficult for Scots who separated from them?

Because international relations ain’t a marriage. It’s like comparing an economy to owning a house. It’s just lazy inaccurate analogies.

J

[Moulin Yarns]

Agree with a lot of what you say there. In the main I've voted Labour down the years, with an occasional vote for the Lib Dems, but like many who would usually vote Labour I voted Conservative for the first time in the 2016 Scottish Parliamentary Election primarily because I was impressed by Ruth Davidson as by far the most coherent and effective campaigner when it came to taking on the SNP and their determination to force another independence referendum. They knew they would never win the election but did an impressive job by positioning themselves as the party capable of holding the SNP to account. The Scottish Tories began that campaign a distant third in the polls but ended up leaving Labour in their slipstream and repeated the trick at the following year's General Election.

I'm also a fan of Davidson because of her down to earth personality and the fact she can't be pigeon-holed as a stereotypical Tory. She's a terrific asset to her party and while I oppose independence, I actually think the Scottish Tories could thrive in an independent Scotland. As others on here as observed, we are at heart a more conservative (small c) nation than many like to admit.

Looking at the wider picture, I began to drift away from Labour very soon after Jeremy Corbyn became leader of the party. His 'for the many not the few' mantra is a thinly disguised call for class war and his poisonous cohorts from the ultra-left are like fossils from the 1970s and 80s. A 'gentler, kinder politics' my erse.

Corbyn's incompetence and all-round incoherence should have seen him step down along with Theresa May in the wake of the Euro elections. For a main party of opposition to fail to land a glove on the most shambolic Tory government in many a year is quite staggering. Fortunately there's no evidence down the decades that UK as a whole has ever embraced the politics of Corbyn and his cohorts, because I think the only event that could see my reconsider my opposition to independence would be his election as PM.

While I voted remain in 2016, I can't back the Lib Dem stance on Brexit. The 'people's vote' has already been held.

As for the SNP, I loathe nationalism and the division it sows, never better exemplified by the independence referendum.

The Greens? I guess they're OK but I cannae stand Patrick Harvey so I guess that maybe just comes down to a personality issue.

A Tory voter by default then? Perhaps, but then I was never much bothered for politics until forced to take notice in 2014 - another black mark against the SNP in my book. I certainly didn't see that time as the joyous expression of democracy in action some would have us believe. More like a bitter, unwanted period in our nation's history whose legacy has dogged us ever since.

👍 If I wasn't on my mobile I would use the 10/10 emoticon.

That is a very good response, reasoned and clear. Now if only more people were able to articulate their thoughts as well as you.

[Hibbyradge]

👍 If I wasn't on my mobile I would use the 10/10 emoticon.

That is a very good response, reasoned and clear. Now if only more people were able to articulate their thoughts as well as you.

: top marks: no initial space.

:top marks: :wink:

[Tornadoes70]

Agree with a lot of what you say there. In the main I've voted Labour down the years, with an occasional vote for the Lib Dems, but like many who would usually vote Labour I voted Conservative for the first time in the 2016 Scottish Parliamentary Election primarily because I was impressed by Ruth Davidson as by far the most coherent and effective campaigner when it came to taking on the SNP and their determination to force another independence referendum. They knew they would never win the election but did an impressive job by positioning themselves as the party capable of holding the SNP to account. The Scottish Tories began that campaign a distant third in the polls but ended up leaving Labour in their slipstream and repeated the trick at the following year's General Election.

I'm also a fan of Davidson because of her down to earth personality and the fact she can't be pigeon-holed as a stereotypical Tory. She's a terrific asset to her party and while I oppose independence, I actually think the Scottish Tories could thrive in an independent Scotland. As others on here as observed, we are at heart a more conservative (small c) nation than many like to admit.

Looking at the wider picture, I began to drift away from Labour very soon after Jeremy Corbyn became leader of the party. His 'for the many not the few' mantra is a thinly disguised call for class war and his poisonous cohorts from the ultra-left are like fossils from the 1970s and 80s. A 'gentler, kinder politics' my erse.

Corbyn's incompetence and all-round incoherence should have seen him step down along with Theresa May in the wake of the Euro elections. For a main party of opposition to fail to land a glove on the most shambolic Tory government in many a year is quite staggering. Fortunately there's no evidence down the decades that UK as a whole has ever embraced the politics of Corbyn and his cohorts, because I think the only event that could see my reconsider my opposition to independence would be his election as PM.

While I voted remain in 2016, I can't back the Lib Dem stance on Brexit. The 'people's vote' has already been held.

As for the SNP, I loathe nationalism and the division it sows, never better exemplified by the independence referendum.

The Greens? I guess they're OK but I cannae stand Patrick Harvey so I guess that maybe just comes down to a personality issue.

A Tory voter by default then? Perhaps, but then I was never much bothered for politics until forced to take notice in 2014 - another black mark against the SNP in my book. I certainly didn't see that time as the joyous expression of democracy in action some would have us believe. More like a bitter, unwanted period in our nation's history whose legacy has dogged us ever since.

i can fully understand why you would criticise Labour's 'For the Many not the Few' ideology as Toryism stands for the exact opposite - 'For the Few not the Many'.

Tories couldn't care less about the working class, those on zero hour contracts or the most poorest and vulnerable in society etc. Its shameful that folk here in Scotland have to rely on food banks to feed themselves and their families while the wealthy live in luxury and arrogance off the backs of those who have to work all hours of the day trying to exist on minimum wages.

What you and other non Labour supporters are bricking themselves about Jeremy is that he will set about putting in place a much fairer economy one that rewards the workers more and create a program of wealth distribution spreading it much more evenly towards the majority many from the minority few. That's not 'class war' its called being humane and civil decency.

Tories are the lowest of the low.

[Mibbes Aye]

i can fully understand why you would criticise Labour's 'For the Many not the Few' ideology as Toryism stands for the exact opposite - 'For the Few not the Many'.

Tories couldn't care less about the working class, those on zero hour contracts or the most poorest and vulnerable in society etc. Its shameful that folk here in Scotland have to rely on food banks to feed themselves and their families while the wealthy live in luxury and arrogance off the backs of those who have to work all hours of the day trying to exist on minimum wages.

What you and other non Labour supporters are bricking themselves about Jeremy is that he will set about putting in place a much fairer economy one that rewards the workers more and create a program of wealth distribution spreading it much more evenly towards the majority many from the minority few. That's not 'class war' its called being humane and civil decency.

Tories are the lowest of the low.

If Corbyn really is for the many, not the few, then he might recognise that more Labour voters voted for Remain than voted for him.

And make it clear that Labour is Remain and for a revocation?

[Tornadoes70]

If Corbyn really is for the many, not the few, then he might recognise that more Labour voters voted for Remain than voted for him.

And make it clear that Labour is Remain and for a revocation?

Remain to promote more Aldi and Lidl stores, German and French companies that will become the norm if separatism/independence occurs?

Haven't folk yet grasped the fact that more EU means more German and French dominance, ask Greece how their government state spending was slashed to the bare bones with high spec jobs lost?

Yeah right, let's chase Tesco, Asda, Morrisons etc out of Scotland while allowing more Aldi's, Lidl's and whatever France has to offer instead.

You don't get it yet do you? it'll be all change if the snp gets it way.

Scotland will become a German and French franchise while having alienated ourselves from our past tense UK ones.

Cue snp separatists/independeteers telling porkies how nothing of the sort would happen and nothing would change except the fact we'd separated from England Wales and NI, as if separation means nothing.

Separation means exactly that. We'd be the little north of somewhere country that was no longer in union with the rest of our nearest island neighbours.

Nothing would remain the same and anything we wished for would have to be renegotiated with England,Wales and NI.

Crazy maybe?

I'd suggest plain realistic but hey ho.

[Mibbes Aye]

Remain to promote more Aldi and Lidl stores, German and French companies that will become the norm if separatism/independence occurs?

Haven't folk yet grasped the fact that more EU means more German and French dominance, ask Greece how their government state spending was slashed to the bare bones with high spec jobs lost?

Yeah right, let's chase Tesco, Asda, Morrisons etc out of Scotland while allowing more Aldi's, Lidl's and whatever France has to offer instead.

You don't get it yet do you? it'll be all change if the snp gets it way.

Scotland will become a German and French franchise while having alienated ourselves from our past tense UK ones.

Cue snp separatists/independeteers telling porkies how nothing of the sort would happen and nothing would change except the fact we'd separated from England Wales and NI, as if separation means nothing.

Separation means exactly that. We'd be the little north of somewhere country that was no longer in union with the rest of our nearest island neighbours.

Nothing would remain the same and anything we wished for would have to be renegotiated with England,Wales and NI.

Crazy maybe?

I'd suggest plain realistic but hey ho.

Wow.

Isnt Asda owned by Wal-mart?

And all the others, like their supposed foreign counterparts, are essentially owned by shareholders who don’t really care other than their pension funds (often state pension funds) or investment funds are delivering a profit, which rightly or wrongly is what they should be seeking in this rather sick and wrongly-oriented market.

Anyway, you didn’t really address my point.

More Labour voters wanted to Remain than wanted Corbyn. Why isn’t he respecting the membership?

[Moulin Yarns]

Remain to promote more Aldi and Lidl stores, German and French companies that will become the norm if separatism/independence occurs?

Haven't folk yet grasped the fact that more EU means more German and French dominance, ask Greece how their government state spending was slashed to the bare bones with high spec jobs lost?

Yeah right, let's chase Tesco, Asda, Morrisons etc out of Scotland while allowing more Aldi's, Lidl's and whatever France has to offer instead.

You don't get it yet do you? it'll be all change if the snp gets it way.

Scotland will become a German and French franchise while having alienated ourselves from our past tense UK ones.

Cue snp separatists/independeteers telling porkies how nothing of the sort would happen and nothing would change except the fact we'd separated from England Wales and NI, as if separation means nothing.

Separation means exactly that. We'd be the little north of somewhere country that was no longer in union with the rest of our nearest island neighbours.

Nothing would remain the same and anything we wished for would have to be renegotiated with England,Wales and NI.

Crazy maybe?

I'd suggest plain realistic but hey ho.


How does that fit with your socialist utopia?

Get rid of supermarkets that offer affordable prices in favour of the the biggest ones. Prices in Lidl are on average 7% lower than Tesco, but you want people to be denied the low prices! What kind of socialist are you?

Now, back to the question, what are your positive reasons for voting Conservative? Hang on, I've got it, you chase away the lower price supermarkets to force more people into poverty. You are so transparent.

[Pretty Boy]

Remain to promote more Aldi and Lidl stores, German and French companies that will become the norm if separatism/independence occurs?

Haven't folk yet grasped the fact that more EU means more German and French dominance, ask Greece how their government state spending was slashed to the bare bones with high spec jobs lost?

Yeah right, let's chase Tesco, Asda, Morrisons etc out of Scotland while allowing more Aldi's, Lidl's and whatever France has to offer instead.

You don't get it yet do you? it'll be all change if the snp gets it way.

Scotland will become a German and French franchise while having alienated ourselves from our past tense UK ones.

Cue snp separatists/independeteers telling porkies how nothing of the sort would happen and nothing would change except the fact we'd separated from England Wales and NI, as if separation means nothing.

Separation means exactly that. We'd be the little north of somewhere country that was no longer in union with the rest of our nearest island neighbours.

Nothing would remain the same and anything we wished for would have to be renegotiated with England,Wales and NI.

Crazy maybe?

I'd suggest plain realistic but hey ho.

I'm confused.

Are you now promoting a form of British national socialism?

I'm aware of the connotations of using that term but given the rant above it seems a somewhat appropriate term.

[G B Young]

Remain to promote more Aldi and Lidl stores, German and French companies that will become the norm if separatism/independence occurs?

Haven't folk yet grasped the fact that more EU means more German and French dominance, ask Greece how their government state spending was slashed to the bare bones with high spec jobs lost?

Yeah right, let's chase Tesco, Asda, Morrisons etc out of Scotland while allowing more Aldi's, Lidl's and whatever France has to offer instead.

You don't get it yet do you? it'll be all change if the snp gets it way.

Scotland will become a German and French franchise while having alienated ourselves from our past tense UK ones.

Cue snp separatists/independeteers telling porkies how nothing of the sort would happen and nothing would change except the fact we'd separated from England Wales and NI, as if separation means nothing.

Separation means exactly that. We'd be the little north of somewhere country that was no longer in union with the rest of our nearest island neighbours.

Nothing would remain the same and anything we wished for would have to be renegotiated with England,Wales and NI.

Crazy maybe?

I'd suggest plain realistic but hey ho.

Aldi and Lidl were heavily represented at last week's Scottish Food and Drink awards, where they were praised by Nicola Sturgeon for their commitment to working closely with Scottish producers and suppliers. No sign of any of the other supermarket chains you mention. Aldi's own brand Scotch whiskies have also swept the boards in recent awards, winning the world's best whisky accolade two years running so it strikes me they they have embraced a strong commitment to Scottish-sourced products while presumably creating an ever increasing number of jobs in their stores. Personally I think their good quality/budget friendly approach is excellent and is something the bigger chains are now trying to emulate.

[Hibbyradge]

Aldi and Lidl would continue to prosper if we leave the EU.

There would be no barriers to them trading in the UK and no tariffs under the WTO arrangements.

Tariffs would only apply to UK companies who wanted to trade with the EU and other trading blocks.

We'd lose our car and agricultural industries.

Does that sound like a socialist utopia to anyone?

Here's some informative reading for you all;

https://documentcloud.adobe.com/link/track?uri=urn%3Aaaid%3Ascds%3AUS%3A0d663fb8-746c-4b85-aafe-4e6a01829f26

[weecounty hibby]

I'm confused.

Are you now promoting a form of British national socialism?

I'm aware of the connotations of using that term but given the rant above it seems a somewhat appropriate term.
I thought that Jeremy's Labour led UK were going to be the vanguard of a worldwide socialist utopia, but not if you read the latest ramblings that you quoted. Looks more like a "make Britain great again" or "Britain first" policy to me

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm confused.

Are you now promoting a form of British national socialism?

I'm aware of the connotations of using that term but given the rant above it seems a somewhat appropriate term.

I've seen this a lot recently, folks I thought were socialists have now adopted a nationalist stance. I guess it's always been there simmering under the surface but recent events have blurred the lines between patriotism and nationalism so much that many don't recognise that they've crossed it. This wee German sketch sums it up quite nicely.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zvgZtdmyKlI&t=39s

[Fife-Hibee]

I've seen this a lot recently, folks I thought were socialists have now adopted a nationalist stance. I guess it's always been there simmering under the surface but recent events have blurred the lines between patriotism and nationalism so much that many don't recognise that they've crossed it. This wee German sketch sums it up quite nicely.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zvgZtdmyKlI&t=39s

Nationalism and Socialism are 2 different things. They're not direct opposites. You can have one without the other, you can have both or you can have neither.

Socialism is purely a system of economics. Nationalism is geographic sovereignty and not directly associated with economics.

[Hibrandenburg]

Nationalism and Socialism are 2 different things. They're not direct opposites. You can have one without the other, you can have both or you can have neither.

Socialism is purely a system of economics. Nationalism is geographic sovereignty and not directly associated with economics.

Think you might have missed the point FH.

[Fife-Hibee]

Think you might have missed the point FH.

You said you thought they were socialists, but then adopted a nationalist stance. That may well be the case, but they can still be socialists.

I would say that nationalism and patriotism are far more closely linked. It's a fine line rather than a blurred one in my opinion. I haven't came across many (if any) "patriots" who don't have a nationalistic agenda of some kind.

[Bristolhibby]

You forget that National Socialism in Germany was also Fascism.

“Fascism is a form of radical right-wing, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy”.

Nothing like we see in Scotland.

J

[Onceinawhile]

I vote Tory.

My political compass is slightly right of centre and Tories are most aligned with this.

Views are mostly based around their economic policies: low corporate and personal taxation, smaller state, promote private enterprise and privatisation.

I think it's disgraceful higher tax payers in Scotland pay significantly more tax than their English and Welsh counterparts. Even relatively modest earners (£27k plus or something like that) pay more. I'm a higher rate tax payer.
.

I'm not convinced 1% is significantly more tax? Also, I'm happy to pay the extra £200 or so tax a year on the basis that I've received 4 years of free university education - worth up to £36K. I also don't need to pay for my prescription and neither does my wife. When it's on repeat, we are saving £9 or so a month. So although we pay a bit more tax, we also get quite a lot more back imo.

27K isn't modest when the average UK salary is less than that imo.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Remain to promote more Aldi and Lidl stores, German and French companies that will become the norm if separatism/independence occurs?

Haven't folk yet grasped the fact that more EU means more German and French dominance, ask Greece how their government state spending was slashed to the bare bones with high spec jobs lost?

Yeah right, let's chase Tesco, Asda, Morrisons etc out of Scotland while allowing more Aldi's, Lidl's and whatever France has to offer instead.

You don't get it yet do you? it'll be all change if the snp gets it way.

Scotland will become a German and French franchise while having alienated ourselves from our past tense UK ones.

Cue snp separatists/independeteers telling porkies how nothing of the sort would happen and nothing would change except the fact we'd separated from England Wales and NI, as if separation means nothing.

Separation means exactly that. We'd be the little north of somewhere country that was no longer in union with the rest of our nearest island neighbours.

Nothing would remain the same and anything we wished for would have to be renegotiated with England,Wales and NI.

Crazy maybe?

I'd suggest plain realistic but hey ho.

Wow x 2.

Putting the nationalist argument aside

Lidl and Aldi have revolutionised their market exposing the p155 taking of “British” supermarkets. No wonder the British competitors want them taken down a few pegs. So they can get back to increasing prices and coin it in.

[Mibbes Aye]

We all know why Ingish votes Labour.

He's told us as nauseum that despite their falling popularity and, it seems, relevance, he supports them because they "seek to protect the NHS, benefits, provide quality homes for those who're out-with the housing market, jobs, pensions and to change the UK for the better for the many not the few".

Although the reality is sadly somewhat different to those laudable high ideals, at least we know his reasons.

What reasons do people on here have for voting Tory?

I think you hit a predictable run of responses unfortunately, which then took the thread in all sorts of directions.

Which is a shame because it is an interesting original question.

As a non-Tory I think this is an interesting read.

Question nine asks all the Tory leadership candidates to define what they think Conservatism is, in thirty words.

https://www.conservativehome.com/tag/15-questions

[Allant1981]

I'm not convinced 1% is significantly more tax? Also, I'm happy to pay the extra £200 or so tax a year on the basis that I've received 4 years of free university education - worth up to £36K. I also don't need to pay for my prescription and neither does my wife. When it's on repeat, we are saving £9 or so a month. So although we pay a bit more tax, we also get quite a lot more back imo.

27K isn't modest when the average UK salary is less than that imo.

Isnt the UK average £29,000?

[stokesmessiah]

I think you hit a predictable run of responses unfortunately, which then took the thread in all sorts of directions.

Which is a shame because it is an interesting original question.

As a non-Tory I think this is an interesting read.

Question nine asks all the Tory leadership candidates to define what they think Conservatism is, in thirty words.

https://www.conservativehome.com/tag/15-questions

That is quite an interesting read, thanks !

[Onceinawhile]

Isnt the UK average £29,000?

£29,009 apparently. I had it in my head that it was £26,000 so I've obviously got that wrong.

I still don't think that it is particularly bad though.

[Moulin Yarns]

I am surprised this thread 'only' got as far as 119 posts. Where are all our Conservative supporters? Or is there really no positive reasons for voting Conservative? :greengrin

[Smartie]

I am surprised this thread 'only' got as far as 119 posts. Where are all our Conservative supporters? Or is there really no positive reasons for voting Conservative? :greengrin

People who vote conservative don't often shout from the rooftops about it.

The majority do so (in my opinion) because they've done quite well for themselves and want to give as little back as possible, their priority being to "look after their own".

It probably doesn't feel very good to type out, and you know you're going to get a whole load of abuse for it.

I also don't think that there will be a very high number of conservative voters within the Hibs support. There will be some, but not many.

It's much easier to express cuddly socialist sentiments, whether they are true and genuine or not, as they tend to paint you in a slightly kinder light, especially amidst the general consensus on Hibs.net.

[pollution]

I am surprised this thread 'only' got as far as 119 posts. Where are all our Conservative supporters? Or is there really no positive reasons for voting Conservative? :greengrin


I imagine because they do not want to put up with the inevitable abuse!

[Future17]

I'm considering self-identifying as Conservative in order to access Tory-only safe spaces and carry out unspeakable acts of perversion...like voting for Boris Johnson.

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm considering self-identifying as Conservative in order to access Tory-only safe spaces and carry out unspeakable acts of perversion...like voting for Boris Johnson.

:faf:

[Fife-Hibee]

I imagine because they do not want to put up with the inevitable abuse!

Abuse? You mean debate?

How dare anybody question a Conservative on here. They're beyond questioning.

[Future17]

Abuse? You mean debate?

How dare anybody question a Conservative on here. They're beyond questioning.

Given the title of the "Tory" thread on here, I think it's fair to say some abuse would be inevitable.

[G B Young]

People who vote conservative don't often shout from the rooftops about it.

The majority do so (in my opinion) because they've done quite well for themselves and want to give as little back as possible, their priority being to "look after their own".

It probably doesn't feel very good to type out, and you know you're going to get a whole load of abuse for it.

I also don't think that there will be a very high number of conservative voters within the Hibs support. There will be some, but not many.

It's much easier to express cuddly socialist sentiments, whether they are true and genuine or not, as they tend to paint you in a slightly kinder light, especially amidst the general consensus on Hibs.net.

In terms of actual Tory politicians there have been a few. Older fans may recall Sir Alex Fletcher, who was a long serving Conservative MP for Edinburgh North (and possibly Central) back in the day when Edinburgh used to return its fair share of Conservative MPs.He was a big Hibs fan.

Sir Malcolm Rifkind, who was Edinburgh Pentlands MP for nearly quarter of a century was more of a rugby man but was known to attend Easter Road in the company of his lifelong friend and great Hibby Brian Meek, former Convenor of Lothian Regional Council. Meek was also a well known sports journalist.

More recently, Brexit MEP and former Conservative MSP Brian Monteith is a well kent Hibs fan.

Monteith is also a journalist which brings to mind the late John Gibson of the Evening News, a lifelong Hibby and Tory.