PDA

View Full Version : Leeann: Scottish Football ready for an "openly gay player"



Sylar
02-05-2019, 11:24 AM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/48123027

I like Leeann, I really do.

But she's living in cloud cuckoo land if she thinks some of the backward mentalities in Scottish football would "tolerate" an openly gay player right now.

In the whole, I'd like to believe she's 100% spot on. But this idea that Scotland is somehow this beacon of progressive ideologies is so flawed, ESPECIALLY our footballing culture.

Are we likely to see mass homophobic chants from the terraces if someone comes out as gay? In non-volatile fixtures, I'd seriously doubt it - you'd probably get the odd idiot shouting something, perhaps even some of the moronic groups of fans trying to start chants - that already happens with regards to race, religion etc (even in non-OF games).

But imagine for a second that one of the Rangers/Celtc players were to "come out"?

I think we're a LONG way off from Scottish Football being "safe" for non-heteronormative players.

JeMeSouviens
02-05-2019, 11:28 AM
Was Justin Fashanu not openly gay when he played here?

Hibernia&Alba
02-05-2019, 11:29 AM
The vast majority wouldn't care if it was one of their own players, in my opinion. However, some within the opposition support would show themselves up with juvenile chanting. It's naïve to think otherwise. The macho world of professional sport remains behind wider society on such issues.

Hibernia&Alba
02-05-2019, 11:30 AM
Was Justin Fashanu not openly gay when he played here?

No, I don't think so.

Peevemor
02-05-2019, 11:30 AM
Was Justin Fashanu not openly gay when he played here?

Yes. He came out in an interview in the Sun 2-3 years before he signed for Hearts.

Since452
02-05-2019, 11:33 AM
Really sad that this is even a topic in this day and age. Sadly i think they would get abuse from the stands. Must be horrible being in that situation. Rangers fans sing about a gay king from 300 odd years ago so there's hope! In all seriousness it matters not a jot what sexuality players are It just shows how backwards we are that Leeann even feels the need to mention it. I'd like to think that if any Hibs player felt they had to make it public they'd get a tremendous reception from the fans, i'm sure they would.

Hibernia&Alba
02-05-2019, 11:33 AM
Yes. He came out in an interview in the Sun 2-3 years before he signed for Hearts.

Did he? I thought he denied it during his career.

MWHIBBIES
02-05-2019, 11:34 AM
Scotland's problem isn't with homophobia. Definitely think 99% of fans would have no problem and would behave. Certainly not any worse than racism and that's a very small minority and the league has many black players. The problem here is sectarianism.

JeMeSouviens
02-05-2019, 11:36 AM
No, I don't think so.

According to his wiki page he was - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Fashanu#Coming_out_in_the_press

Came out 1990, signed for Airdrie 1993. The reason I asked was I'm sure Airdrie fans had a chant during his brief spell there: "He's black, he's gay, he plays for Aird-er-ay, Fashanu, Fashanu"

Fwiw, I think it would be fine. Yes, there are some idiots but I think widespread homophobia would be seen as being as unacceptable as widespread racism.

If only we could do something about widespread anti-Catholic bigotry. :rolleyes:

Hibernia&Alba
02-05-2019, 11:47 AM
According to his wiki page he was - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Fashanu#Coming_out_in_the_press

Came out 1990, signed for Airdrie 1993. The reason I asked was I'm sure Airdrie fans had a chant during his brief spell there: "He's black, he's gay, he plays for Aird-er-ay, Fashanu, Fashanu"

Fwiw, I think it would be fine. Yes, there are some idiots but I think widespread homophobia would be seen as being as unacceptable as widespread racism.

If only we could do something about widespread anti-Catholic bigotry. :rolleyes:

I didn't know that. Did he receive much abuse at the time from opposition fans?

Peevemor
02-05-2019, 11:50 AM
I didn't know that. Did he receive much abuse at the time from opposition fans?

Plenty from what I remember.

WeeRussell
02-05-2019, 11:54 AM
We really should be in this day and age. But then there's a lot of things that we SHOULD be capable of and struggle with in Scottish football... and the wider world.

Ultimately it's up to said players whether they think it's time or not.

Bostonhibby
02-05-2019, 11:59 AM
No problem with it all. More concerned about the behaviours of openly obnoxious players, Morelos for example.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

Pretty Boy
02-05-2019, 12:01 PM
It shouldn't be a problem but it could well be.

Graeme Le Saux suffered horrendous homophobic abuse throughout his career despite not actually being gay. The world has moved on even in the decade or so since Le Saux retired but there is still an ugly mentality among some fans of football that 'anything goes'. Casual homophobia is pretty rampant in football as it stands with the 'hibees are gay' patter or players being called 'poofs' for shirking out of a tackle. Closer to home look at some of the vitriol aimed at Leeann Dempster herself on twitter on occasion.

The 'it doesn't bother me' or 'if he plays in a Hibs shirt he gets my support' mentality is laudable but ultimately flawed. The 1st player to come out would be thrust straight into the spotlight and they would be 'different'. Whilst that may not be an issue for many, a minority can still be loud and make themselves heard. Football can also also descend to the lowest common denominator even when touching on serious subjects and mob mnetality sometimes kicks in. As an example child abuse has been seen as fair game by Rangers, Hearts and Hibs fans over the years. In my experience it's certainly more than a small minority who join in with those songs when they rear their head.

Society is evolving all the time and we probably aren't all that far away from a high profile openly gay footballer in the UK. I think that whoever the person is who takes the step will require a lot of public and private support and I hope the game is ready to provide them with it.

JeMeSouviens
02-05-2019, 12:01 PM
I didn't know that. Did he receive much abuse at the time from opposition fans?

I don't remember actually being at a game he played in. Which is strange, he was at Airdrie for half a season and Hearts for about half the following season which would have been towards the end of the 22 in a row run and God knows I suffered through most of that. :rolleyes:

calumhibee1
02-05-2019, 12:01 PM
Hopefully someone with thick skin comes out soon. They’ll no doubt get abuse imo but once the novelty wears off for the idiots I think it would become a fairly safe place to do so.

AltheHibby
02-05-2019, 12:10 PM
Hopefully someone with thick skin comes out soon. They’ll no doubt get abuse imo but once the novelty wears off for the idiots I think it would become a fairly safe place to do so.

On first read I agree with you totally.

But, having Catholic players hasn't stopped the neanderthals at Sevco, so I still think it will be a while.

BILLYHIBS
02-05-2019, 12:14 PM
It shouldn't be a problem but it could well be.

Graeme Le Saux suffered horrendous homophobic abuse throughout his career despite not actually being gay. The world has moved on even in the decade or so since Le Saux retired but there is still an ugly mentality among some fans of football that 'anything goes'. Casual homophobia is pretty rampant in football as it stands with the 'hibees are gay' patter or players being called 'poofs' for shirking out of a tackle. Closer to home look at some of the vitriol aimed at Leeann Dempster herself on twitter on occasion.

The 'it doesn't bother me' or 'if he plays in a Hibs shirt he gets my support' mentality is laudable but ultimately flawed. The 1st player to come out would be thrust straight into the spotlight and they would be 'different'. Whilst that may not be an issue for many, a minority can still be loud and make themselves heard. Football can also also descend to the lowest common denominator even when touching on serious subjects and mob mnetality sometimes kicks in. As an example child abuse has been seen as fair game by Rangers, Hearts and Hibs fans over the years. In my experience it's certainly more than a small minority who join in with those songs when they rear their head.

Society is evolving all the time and we probably aren't all that far away from a high profile openly gay footballer in the UK. I think that whoever the person is who takes the step will require a lot of public and private support and I hope the game is ready to provide them with it.
:confused:

Sorry PB must have missed something

What songs about child abuse do HIBS fans sing?

Eyrie
02-05-2019, 12:17 PM
:confused:

Sorry PB must have missed something

What songs about child abuse do HIBS fans sing?

There have been many references to Savilles on here over the years.

superfurryhibby
02-05-2019, 12:24 PM
:confused:

Sorry PB must have missed something

What songs about child abuse do HIBS fans sing?

Have sung the likes of “Richard Gough- child molester” or

“His name is Craig Thomson , he comes from Gorgie Way, etc, etc” .

Aim Here
02-05-2019, 12:24 PM
It shouldn't be a problem but it could well be.

Graeme Le Saux suffered horrendous homophobic abuse throughout his career despite not actually being gay. The world has moved on even in the decade or so since Le Saux retired but there is still an ugly mentality among some fans of football that 'anything goes'. Casual homophobia is pretty rampant in football as it stands with the 'hibees are gay' patter or players being called 'poofs' for shirking out of a tackle. Closer to home look at some of the vitriol aimed at Leeann Dempster herself on twitter on occasion.

The 'it doesn't bother me' or 'if he plays in a Hibs shirt he gets my support' mentality is laudable but ultimately flawed. The 1st player to come out would be thrust straight into the spotlight and they would be 'different'. Whilst that may not be an issue for many, a minority can still be loud and make themselves heard. Football can also also descend to the lowest common denominator even when touching on serious subjects and mob mnetality sometimes kicks in. As an example child abuse has been seen as fair game by Rangers, Hearts and Hibs fans over the years. In my experience it's certainly more than a small minority who join in with those songs when they rear their head.

Society is evolving all the time and we probably aren't all that far away from a high profile openly gay footballer in the UK. I think that whoever the person is who takes the step will require a lot of public and private support and I hope the game is ready to provide them with it.

There is another route - instead of having one openly gay player taking all the initial homophobic flak, it might be a plan to have a whole lot of them come out publicly at once. People just wake up one morning and find out that there's 12 or 20 or 40 gay players scattered throughout the league. That would make it easier on them since nobody will be the focus of what abuse there is, and a lot of bigots (though maybe not all) will have to re-evaluate their thinking once they find out that someone on the team they support is gay.

I don't think it'd be that big a deal right now these days anyways. There'll be the usual twitter knuckledraggers and you might end up with a few folk getting hoofed out of a stadium for bigotry, but Scotland is reasonably progressive on sexual orientation these days and I don't envisage anything like a version of the hazing that Mark Walters got in the 1980s, for instance. The fact that most of our political leaders, until recently, were gay was notable for how easily it was accepted by the Scottish mainstream.

WeeRussell
02-05-2019, 12:24 PM
:confused:

Sorry PB must have missed something

What songs about child abuse do HIBS fans sing?

I guess much depends on whether you class the numerous songs about Graham Rix and Craig Thomson as songs about child abuse?

Green Man
02-05-2019, 12:25 PM
And the Craig Thomson song.

Marvellous
02-05-2019, 12:26 PM
Really sad that this is even a topic in this day and age. Sadly i think they would get abuse from the stands. Must be horrible being in that situation. Rangers fans sing about a gay king from 300 odd years ago so there's hope! In all seriousness it matters not a jot what sexuality players are It just shows how backwards we are that Leeann even feels the need to mention it. I'd like to think that if any Hibs player felt they had to make it public they'd get a tremendous reception from the fans, i'm sure they would.

:rolleyes:

AndyM_1875
02-05-2019, 12:31 PM
I didn't know that. Did he receive much abuse at the time from opposition fans?

Yes. Including some really cringey stuff from Hibs fans.

Anyone who was at the game at Tynecastle that JF played against us (a dour 1-1 draw) should remember what an absolute embarrassment some of the fans were.

superfurryhibby
02-05-2019, 12:34 PM
:rolleyes:

He did have several close male associates, including two Dutch courtiers to whom he granted English titles: Hans Willem Bentinck became Earl of Portland, and Arnold Joost van Keppel was created Earl of Albemarle. These relationships with male friends, and his apparent lack of mistresses, led William's enemies to suggest that he might prefer homosexual relationships. William's modern biographers disagree on the veracity of these allegations. Some believe there may have been truth to the rumours,[118] while others affirm that they were no more than figments of his enemies' imaginations, and that there was nothing unusual in someone childless like William adopting or evincing paternal affections for a younger man.[119]

Whatever the case, Bentinck's closeness to William did arouse jealousies at the Royal Court. William's young protegé, Keppel, aroused more gossip and suspicion, being 20 years William's junior, strikingly handsome, and having risen from being a royal page to an earldom with some ease.[120] Portland wrote to William in 1697 that "the kindness which your Majesty has for a young man, and the way in which you seem to authorise his liberties ... make the world say things I am ashamed to hear."[121] This, he said, was "tarnishing a reputation which has never before been subject to such accusations". William tersely dismissed these suggestions, however, saying, "It seems to me very extraordinary that it should be impossible to have esteem and regard for a young man without it being criminal."[121]

Phil MaGlass
02-05-2019, 12:46 PM
Had a chat with a mate a while back, on the "poofs" word, always being bandied about, I think its used as a throw away word where alot of people using it dont think about it before they say it.Its in the blood(if you see what I mean) When I was young we used it to describe anyone and anything, folk are more aware of using the word nowadays, but I cant say I have ever seen it used against anyone who is gay, (I am not saying it hasnt).
As for gays coming out in Scottish fitba I dont think and would hope it would not be a problem on the terraces,as someone on here said, if a few were to come out at the same time it might make a difference,but one person coming out would undoubtedly get a rough time from the idiots away from the game/stadium.
Not that we care" oooh the Hibees are gayyy".

HoboHarry
02-05-2019, 12:46 PM
I wish this was the biggest issue facing Scottish football. Whole ****** game is lagging miles behind the rest of the world and this is a real issue? I would happily play a team of Julian Clary's if it meant we could qualify for a world cup....

Smartie
02-05-2019, 12:50 PM
I didn't know that. Did he receive much abuse at the time from opposition fans?

From what I remember of the crowd at "the Fashanu derby" Scottish football was most certainly not ready for an openly gay player at that point.

I'd have been in my late teens when he played for Hearts and in the early 90s my mates and I would have liberally chucked what would probably nowadays be called "playground homophobia" at each other.

That said, I think that day was one of the most notable moments of my life where I felt genuine sympathy for the appalling abuse that a fellow human being was openly having to suffer.

It was not on.

Keith_M
02-05-2019, 12:58 PM
Considering we still vilify people born outside of wedlock, I don't hold out much hope for an openly gay footballer.

Smartie
02-05-2019, 12:59 PM
Had a chat with a mate a while back, on the "poofs" word, always being bandied about, I think its used as a throw away word where alot of people using it dont think about it before they say it.Its in the blood(if you see what I mean) When I was young we used it to describe anyone and anything, folk are more aware of using the word nowadays, but I cant say I have ever seen it used against anyone who is gay, (I am not saying it hasnt).
As for gays coming out in Scottish fitba I dont think and would hope it would not be a problem on the terraces,as someone on here said, if a few were to come out at the same time it might make a difference,but one person coming out would undoubtedly get a rough time from the idiots away from the game/stadium.
Not that we care" oooh the Hibees are gayyy".

I did have a chuckle at the Viz profanisaurus definition of poof as "a man who doesn't want another drink".

Keith_M
02-05-2019, 01:02 PM
I did have a chuckle at the Viz profanisaurus definition of poof as "a man who doesn't want another drink".


When I was at Primary School, I knew that all English people were 'Poofs'. I had no idea what a Poof actually was, though....and I didn't even meet an English person till I was quite a bit older.

Phil MaGlass
02-05-2019, 01:11 PM
Is it right to laugh at the 2 posts above mmmm
Insert smiley

Hibernia&Alba
02-05-2019, 01:12 PM
Yes. Including some really cringey stuff from Hibs fans.

Anyone who was at the game at Tynecastle that JF played against us (a dour 1-1 draw) should remember what an absolute embarrassment some of the fans were.


From what I remember of the crowd at "the Fashanu derby" Scottish football was most certainly not ready for an openly gay player at that point.

I'd have been in my late teens when he played for Hearts and in the early 90s my mates and I would have liberally chucked what would probably nowadays be called "playground homophobia" at each other.

That said, I think that day was one of the most notable moments of my life where I felt genuine sympathy for the appalling abuse that a fellow human being was openly having to suffer.

It was not on.
Cheers. Sad to hear, but unsurprising, especially back then. It must have been hellish for the guy, and what became of him is very tragic.

Hibrandenburg
02-05-2019, 01:19 PM
Depends on the player. The world needs pioneers and I'm sure there's a few gay footballers out there with thick enough skin to live with the taunts, it's up to the rest of us then to show them support.

proud_and_green
02-05-2019, 01:28 PM
It shouldn't be a problem but it could well be.

Graeme Le Saux suffered horrendous homophobic abuse throughout his career despite not actually being gay. The world has moved on even in the decade or so since Le Saux retired but there is still an ugly mentality among some fans of football that 'anything goes'. Casual homophobia is pretty rampant in football as it stands with the 'hibees are gay' patter or players being called 'poofs' for shirking out of a tackle. Closer to home look at some of the vitriol aimed at Leeann Dempster herself on twitter on occasion.

The 'it doesn't bother me' or 'if he plays in a Hibs shirt he gets my support' mentality is laudable but ultimately flawed. The 1st player to come out would be thrust straight into the spotlight and they would be 'different'. Whilst that may not be an issue for many, a minority can still be loud and make themselves heard. Football can also also descend to the lowest common denominator even when touching on serious subjects and mob mnetality sometimes kicks in. As an example child abuse has been seen as fair game by Rangers, Hearts and Hibs fans over the years. In my experience it's certainly more than a small minority who join in with those songs when they rear their head.

Society is evolving all the time and we probably aren't all that far away from a high profile openly gay footballer in the UK. I think that whoever the person is who takes the step will require a lot of public and private support and I hope the game is ready to provide them with it.Every journey starts with a step and I agree that the pathfinders/groundbreakers on this particular journey will ultimately be subject to some abuse but I think the very fact of it becoming the norm will make it less of an issue and before we know we will wonder what all the fuss was about.
In my mind the sooner the better, but good people must be ready to share the burden and call out the 'phobes (whatever type).

Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk

G B Young
02-05-2019, 01:32 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/48123027

I like Leeann, I really do.

But she's living in cloud cuckoo land if she thinks some of the backward mentalities in Scottish football would "tolerate" an openly gay player right now.

In the whole, I'd like to believe she's 100% spot on. But this idea that Scotland is somehow this beacon of progressive ideologies is so flawed, ESPECIALLY our footballing culture.

Are we likely to see mass homophobic chants from the terraces if someone comes out as gay? In non-volatile fixtures, I'd seriously doubt it - you'd probably get the odd idiot shouting something, perhaps even some of the moronic groups of fans trying to start chants - that already happens with regards to race, religion etc (even in non-OF games).

But imagine for a second that one of the Rangers/Celtc players were to "come out"?

I think we're a LONG way off from Scottish Football being "safe" for non-heteronormative players.

If not now, when? I think it's great that Leeann has raised this and it would be amazing if football could play a leading role in 'normalising' this issue in men's sport.

proud_and_green
02-05-2019, 01:35 PM
If not now, when? I think it's great that Leeann has raised this and it would be amazing if football could play a leading role in 'normalising' this issue in men's sport.Absolutely agree! To kick it into the long grass is to make yourself part of the problem. Inactivity is the enemy and this needs driven forward now.

Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk

hibsbollah
02-05-2019, 01:37 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/48123027

I like Leeann, I really do.

But she's living in cloud cuckoo land if she thinks some of the backward mentalities in Scottish football would "tolerate" an openly gay player right now.

In the whole, I'd like to believe she's 100% spot on. But this idea that Scotland is somehow this beacon of progressive ideologies is so flawed, ESPECIALLY our footballing culture.

Are we likely to see mass homophobic chants from the terraces if someone comes out as gay? In non-volatile fixtures, I'd seriously doubt it - you'd probably get the odd idiot shouting something, perhaps even some of the moronic groups of fans trying to start chants - that already happens with regards to race, religion etc (even in non-OF games).

But imagine for a second that one of the Rangers/Celtc players were to "come out"?

I think we're a LONG way off from Scottish Football being "safe" for non-heteronormative players.

But I dont think her intention was to predict that the first out gay footballer wouldn't receive any abuse from idiots bigots and morons. Her intention was to give comfort and support to any gay player who might be weighing up whether to come out, that they know that Dempster and others in positions of power will be on their side.

It's a powerful and important message.

I also think she's right. In a brilliant stat; in 1983, 50% UK of respondents said active gays were 'always wrong', 17% said 'nothing wrong with it'. In 2012, that's gone to 22% 'always wrong' to 47% 'nothing wrong with it. That's in less than thirty years!


http://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/latest-report/british-social-attitudes-30/personal-relationships/homosexuality.aspx Even taking into account the macho laddish culture of the terraces, (which is also on the decline) I think the abuse would be scattered and would get better fairly quickly with time. She's also right about Scotland being way ahead of most of the rest of the world in this respect.

Aim Here
02-05-2019, 01:41 PM
Considering we still vilify people born outside of wedlock, I don't hold out much hope for an openly gay footballer.

Do we? Half of all kids born in the UK these days are born out of wedlock. Where are you in the country that this is even an issue?

Sioux
02-05-2019, 01:51 PM
Do we? Half of all kids born in the UK these days are born out of wedlock. Where are you in the country that this is even an issue?

Only when they've been using fake tan and turned orange.

bod
02-05-2019, 01:51 PM
He did have several close male associates, including two Dutch courtiers to whom he granted English titles: Hans Willem Bentinck became Earl of Portland, and Arnold Joost van Keppel was created Earl of Albemarle. These relationships with male friends, and his apparent lack of mistresses, led William's enemies to suggest that he might prefer homosexual relationships. William's modern biographers disagree on the veracity of these allegations. Some believe there may have been truth to the rumours,[118] while others affirm that they were no more than figments of his enemies' imaginations, and that there was nothing unusual in someone childless like William adopting or evincing paternal affections for a younger man.[119]

Whatever the case, Bentinck's closeness to William did arouse jealousies at the Royal Court. William's young protegé, Keppel, aroused more gossip and suspicion, being 20 years William's junior, strikingly handsome, and having risen from being a royal page to an earldom with some ease.[120] Portland wrote to William in 1697 that "the kindness which your Majesty has for a young man, and the way in which you seem to authorise his liberties ... make the world say things I am ashamed to hear."[121] This, he said, was "tarnishing a reputation which has never before been subject to such accusations". William tersely dismissed these suggestions, however, saying, "It seems to me very extraordinary that it should be impossible to have esteem and regard for a young man without it being criminal."[121]

what do the numbers in brackets mean ?

Aim Here
02-05-2019, 01:56 PM
what do the numbers in brackets mean ?

Footnotes. On the Wiki page, it links to the source of the information.

JeMeSouviens
02-05-2019, 01:56 PM
But I dont think her intention was to predict that the first out gay footballer wouldn't receive any abuse from idiots bigots and morons. Her intention was to give comfort and support to any gay player who might be weighing up whether to come out, that they know that Dempster and others in positions of power will be on their side.

It's a powerful and important message.

I also think she's right. In a brilliant stat; in 1983, 50% UK of respondents said active gays were 'always wrong', 17% said 'nothing wrong with it'. In 2012, that's gone to 22% 'always wrong' to 47% 'nothing wrong with it. That's in less than thirty years!


http://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/latest-report/british-social-attitudes-30/personal-relationships/homosexuality.aspx Even taking into account the macho laddish culture of the terraces, (which is also on the decline) I think the abuse would be scattered and would get better fairly quickly with time. She's also right about Scotland being way ahead of most of the rest of the world in this respect.

Still scarily high! Reading Fashanu's wiki page is a bit of eye opener. When Brian Clough found out he was gay he banned him from training with the rest of the team and he was moved on asap.

JXM73
02-05-2019, 02:18 PM
According to some jambos on sunday think we're all gay any way, how long has that homophobic ditty been floating around?

Since452
02-05-2019, 02:22 PM
According to some jambos on sunday think we're all gay any way, how long has that homophobic ditty been floating around?

Probably the most cringey and idiotic "song" I've heard. Bet it made their own gay/lesbian supporters, maybe even players feel fantastic.

pacoluna
02-05-2019, 02:24 PM
Who cares, if your a posty or a footballer it's up to the individual to come out. Doesn't matter if Scottish football is ready or not.

JeMeSouviens
02-05-2019, 02:25 PM
According to some jambos on sunday think we're all gay any way, how long has that homophobic ditty been floating around?

Cup semi final in 2006. 7 nation army was played over the tannoy and that was their spontaneous response.

Not much moral high ground for us though, since we turned it round onto Paul Hartley.

Aim Here
02-05-2019, 02:34 PM
Who cares, if your a posty or a footballer it's up to the individual to come out. Doesn't matter if Scottish football is ready or not.

In general, yes (there are a few, rare, exceptions, such as if a closeted gay politician was actively harming the community by supporting homophobic legislation).

The point of talking about it is that football is, or at least is perceived to be, a hostile climate for openly gay players and that people in football should actively take steps to make it less hostile. The perception is so strong that there has, to date, been only one openly gay footballer in top level British football, which is more or less a statistical impossibility. It matters, in that football shouldn't be allowed to become some sort of last bastion of homophobia in Scotland.

Scott Allan Key
02-05-2019, 02:34 PM
Really sad that this is even a topic in this day and age. Sadly i think they would get abuse from the stands. Must be horrible being in that situation. Rangers fans sing about a gay king from 300 odd years ago so there's hope! In all seriousness it matters not a jot what sexuality players are It just shows how backwards we are that Leeann even feels the need to mention it. I'd like to think that if any Hibs player felt they had to make it public they'd get a tremendous reception from the fans, i'm sure they would.I think more people should let Huns know that King Billy was gay, at least one of their founder members was Catholic and the Queen is descended from the Prophet Muhammad.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

Stuart93
02-05-2019, 03:42 PM
Some dafties abuse people by the colour of their skin never mind if they’re homosexual or not.

Wasn’t that long ago jambos were singing about us all being gay

G B Young
02-05-2019, 03:44 PM
Depends on the player. The world needs pioneers and I'm sure there's a few gay footballers out there with thick enough skin to live with the taunts, it's up to the rest of us then to show them support.

Probably the most high profile 'pioneer' in UK sport of late was former Wales rugby captain Gareth Thomas. I thought he was especially brave given the 'macho' nature of his sport and it was sad to see that he was the subject of a homophobic assault last year. Olympic diver Tom Daley has also raised the profile of gay sportsmen.

By and large though most gay sportsmen seem to keep their sexuality private, which is wholly understandable. It's never been such a stigma in women's sport as far as I can see and men's sport can maybe learn some lessons there.

The Rainbow Laces campaign is a good initiative and I'd like to see more of that sort of thinking to help put this issue front of mind in sport. Anything that inspires wider tolerance in society is to be welcomed and if football could blaze a trail here the game would be all the better for it.

CathroMustStay
02-05-2019, 04:14 PM
It's depressing when the usual contrarian responses are made when this subject is highlighted.

In some way (not quite but tempting to consider) I'd almost have more respect for those who are openly homophobic & therefore that's why they are against Scottish football acknowledging LGBT representation beyond the lofty 0% mark.

Rather than the minority of overt objections, it's the typical subtle objections which I find really problematic:

"Listen I wouldn't treat any player on my team differently if they were gay.... however...."

Usually followed by some long winded explanation which tends to oddly worry about the prospect that *gasp* they might open their tabloid of choice and read about a player sh*gging a man on a night out in the West End, as opposed to Kyle Lafferty or whoever's nocturnal exploits with a "burd".

None of which has any sympathy, nor even contemplates for a single second, the psychological damage staying in the closet has on human beings, even those who earn 7 figure salaries.

The same sort of bullsh*t justifications were made decades ago when Scottish football gradually began to integrate non-white representation:

"Listen I wouldn't treat any player on my team differently if they were black.... however....".

Of course nobody should be forced to publicly come out before they're ready, and I'm all for discussing whether such options as facilitating multiple players (from several clubs in the same league) coming out at the same time would be feasible/appropriate etc.

Regardless of strategy, it's about effing time football caught up with modern society as a whole.

neil7908
02-05-2019, 04:18 PM
It'll happen sooner or later but sadly there is still a really nasty element amongst many fans (our own included) that will use this kind of thing as a weapon. That will probably always be there but I'm not convinced that homophobic chanting against an opposition player would be shouted down or actively opposed either, which is the big issue for me.

If I was gay I don't think I would put myself in that position by coming out.

I could also see fans turning on their own player if they came out as gay and had a couple of bad performances.

plhibs
02-05-2019, 04:23 PM
Never heard that interview before, when was it recorded?

LD sounds like a very confident, forward thinking, business savvy lady. She also seems very satisfied in her situation in life at the present time, I hope that we are doing all the correct things to keep her at Hibs for a long time

JeMeSouviens
02-05-2019, 04:39 PM
It's depressing when the usual contrarian responses are made when this subject is highlighted.

In some way (not quite but tempting to consider) I'd almost have more respect for those who are openly homophobic & therefore that's why they are against Scottish football acknowledging LGBT representation beyond the lofty 0% mark.

Rather than the minority of overt objections, it's the typical subtle objections which I find really problematic:

"Listen I wouldn't treat any player on my team differently if they were gay.... however...."

Usually followed by some long winded explanation which tends to oddly worry about the prospect that *gasp* they might open their tabloid of choice and read about a player sh*gging a man on a night out in the West End, as opposed to Kyle Lafferty or whoever's nocturnal exploits with a "burd".

None of which has any sympathy, nor even contemplates for a single second, the psychological damage staying in the closet has on human beings, even those who earn 7 figure salaries.

The same sort of bullsh*t justifications were made decades ago when Scottish football gradually began to integrate non-white representation:

"Listen I wouldn't treat any player on my team differently if they were black.... however....".

Of course nobody should be forced to publicly come out before they're ready, and I'm all for discussing whether such options as facilitating multiple players (from several clubs in the same league) coming out at the same time would be feasible/appropriate etc.

Regardless of strategy, it's about effing time football caught up with modern society as a whole.


To be fair, I don't see any of that in this thread? The only reservations people seem to have is that there are a lot of ********s about and the first (well 2nd after Fashanu) openly gay footballer will be a target for them.

I personally don't think that's the case* and totally agree with your last sentence.


* there are a lot of ********s, but they won't use this in the same way that racists tend to keep their racism under wraps because they know it will be generally disapproved of by anyone with a brain.

Lendo
02-05-2019, 04:47 PM
Considering we still vilify people born outside of wedlock, I don't hold out much hope for an openly gay footballer.

Do we?

proud_and_green
02-05-2019, 05:01 PM
To be fair, I don't see any of that in this thread? The only reservations people seem to have is that there are a lot of ********s about and the first (well 2nd after Fashanu) openly gay footballer will be a target for them.

I personally don't think that's the case* and totally agree with your last sentence.


* there are a lot of ********s, but they won't use this in the same way that racists tend to keep their racism under wraps because they know it will be generally disapproved of by anyone with a brain.

Yes but reservations are not the way to take this debate forward. Because reservations often end in the issue being kicked into the long grass or put on the too difficult to do pile.

We live in a world where there seems to be a greater polarisation of ideas and people - whatever the tribe; that needs to be opposed and the only way to do that is to act, not whistle and look away. Those of us who occupy the majority position which tends to be the silent middle ground need to find our voices.

Many years ago at Sandhurst I was told that the way to overcome a seemingly immovable object is to lead from the front and by example. When the bullets are flying and others don't want to put their heads above the parapet, the leader has to stand up and say follow me even though the danger is obvious. Leanne is showing the leadership here and I for one support her wholeheartedly. Well done Leanne, let's get behind her and move this out of the long grass.

Keith_M
02-05-2019, 06:12 PM
Do we? Half of all kids born in the UK these days are born out of wedlock. Where are you in the country that this is even an issue?


So you've never heard Craig Levein being called a "sad jambo b 'stard"?

How about the old referee chant, "who's the b 'stard in the black"?

Lago
02-05-2019, 06:19 PM
:aok:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/48123027

I like Leeann, I really do.

But she's living in cloud cuckoo land if she thinks some of the backward mentalities in Scottish football would "tolerate" an openly gay player right now.

In the whole, I'd like to believe she's 100% spot on. But this idea that Scotland is somehow this beacon of progressive ideologies is so flawed, ESPECIALLY our footballing culture.

Are we likely to see mass homophobic chants from the terraces if someone comes out as gay? In non-volatile fixtures, I'd seriously doubt it - you'd probably get the odd idiot shouting something, perhaps even some of the moronic groups of fans trying to start chants - that already happens with regards to race, religion etc (even in non-OF games).

But imagine for a second that one of the Rangers/Celtc players were to "come out"?

I think we're a LONG way off from Scottish Football being "safe" for non-heteronormative players.

Michael
02-05-2019, 06:19 PM
So you've never heard Craig Levein being called a "sad jambo b 'stard"?

How about the old referee chant, "who's the b 'stard in the black"?

******* has a different meaning in most cases now though.

B.H.F.C
02-05-2019, 06:22 PM
So you've never heard Craig Levein being called a "sad jambo b 'stard"?

How about the old referee chant, "who's the b 'stard in the black"?

Aye but it’s fairly obvious the word isn’t being used in that context.

Keith_M
02-05-2019, 06:35 PM
******* has a different meaning in most cases now though.


Aye but it’s fairly obvious the word isn’t being used in that context.


Surely that's the same argument with a number of words, though.

If I shouted, "ya big poof", at somebody that clearly wasn't gay, there would still be an outcry and claims of homophobia.

Scouse Hibee
02-05-2019, 06:50 PM
There are certain folk of certain generations that are still not ready to accept gay folk and those generations still go to football.

Stuart93
02-05-2019, 06:53 PM
So you've never heard Craig Levein being called a "sad jambo b 'stard"?

How about the old referee chant, "who's the b 'stard in the black"?

Jesus Christ really???

brianmc
02-05-2019, 06:56 PM
Jesus Christ really???

FFS. Don't bring religion into this, it'll only make things worse 😉

Stuart93
02-05-2019, 07:15 PM
FFS. Don't bring religion into this, it'll only make things worse 😉

Hahaha rate this

Mibbes Aye
02-05-2019, 07:45 PM
Surely that's the same argument with a number of words, though.

If I shouted, "ya big poof", at somebody that clearly wasn't gay, there would still be an outcry and claims of homophobia.

I get the point you are making. I think what you have identified is that the respective words are at different stages of their development and usage in the English language, reflecting different societal outlooks on being born out of wedlock and being homosexual.

I don’t think being born out of wedlock carries much in the way of stigma in this day and age, apart from people with some deeply held religious convictions. I certainly don’t think that people born out of wedlock face direct or indirect discrimination or bigotry to any real degree.

Thats not true yet for homosexuals, despite the clear progress there has been in reducing discrimination and stereotypes.

Who knows, if that day comes, then maybe words like poof will become neutralised and not associated with sexuality in the way that b’stard no longer carries any association to whetheher your parents were married.

Carheenlea
02-05-2019, 08:02 PM
I wish this was the biggest issue facing Scottish football. Whole ****** game is lagging miles behind the rest of the world and this is a real issue? I would happily play a team of Julian Clary's if it meant we could qualify for a world cup....

To be fair, comments like this can be unhelpful and just adds to the stereotyping that surrounds homosexuality. Most gay men are not camp and don’t ham it up like Julian Clary, but unfortunately it’s those kind of characters that immediately spring to mind for many when they hear the words gay man. I think we are all guilty of this to a certain extent, and it’s just a further barrier for gay sportsmen to overcome.

Stonewall
02-05-2019, 08:02 PM
Did he? I thought he denied it during his career.

The Airdrie fans used to sing-he’s black, he’s gay he plays for Airderay...

spike220
02-05-2019, 08:03 PM
The vast majority wouldn't care if it was one of their own players, in my opinion. However, some within the opposition support would show themselves up with juvenile chanting. It's naïve to think otherwise. The macho world of professional sport remains behind wider society on such issues.

I don't think soccer could ever be considered a "macho" sport. The way the players carry on when trying to buy a foul these days. Half the time it looks as though they went drama school to pefect their performance

jakedance
02-05-2019, 08:11 PM
There will never be a good time but it will take some brave men to lead the way before it’s normalised and homophobic abuse in football becomes taboo in the way that racism (usually) is. It’s a shame for gay footballers that they are in one of the few professions where being openly gay will cause them a lot of hassle.

Sir David Gray
02-05-2019, 09:21 PM
Not interested in the slightest as to what someone's sexuality is. It's their business and no-one else's.

If it was to become public knowledge then I don't agree with any abuse taking place but I don't see why there's such a fuss about getting people to come out.

CathroMustStay
02-05-2019, 09:39 PM
Not interested in the slightest as to what someone's sexuality is. It's their business and no-one else's.

If it was to become public knowledge then I don't agree with any abuse taking place but I don't see why there's such a fuss about getting people to come out.

With all due respect, your "I don't see the fuss, they should stay in the closet" mentality is exactly why this issue is an issue and continues to be an issue.

Kavinho
02-05-2019, 09:47 PM
With all due respect, your "I don't see the fuss, they should stay in the closet" mentality is exactly why this issue is an issue and continues to be an issue.

That's not quite what he said though

Sir David Gray
02-05-2019, 09:55 PM
With all due respect, your "I don't see the fuss, they should stay in the closet" mentality is exactly why this issue is an issue and continues to be an issue.

Staying in the closet isn't what i'm saying at all. I'm saying if the player is spotted with their same sex partner on holiday etc and it becomes public knowledge as a result then they should be given the support they need and protected by the full force of the law from any abuse and discrimination, both on and off the pitch.

I just don't really get why there's so much attention on getting the first player to publicly declare their homosexuality. It's no-one's business but theirs.

I couldn't care less what any Hibs player does in their private life as long as it's legal and not affecting anyone else. As soon as they pull on the Hibs shirt and cross the white line with their 10 team mates then everything else is irrelevant to me.

Scouse Hibee
02-05-2019, 10:09 PM
With all due respect, your "I don't see the fuss, they should stay in the closet" mentality is exactly why this issue is an issue and continues to be an issue.

With all due respect he didn’t say that.

Bangkok Hibby
03-05-2019, 02:35 AM
So you've never heard Craig Levein being called a "sad jambo b 'stard"?

How about the old referee chant, "who's the b 'stard in the black"?

Am I having a "whoosh" moment? You are joking yes? Hard to tell sometimes 😀

Bangkok Hibby
03-05-2019, 02:40 AM
Surely that's the same argument with a number of words, though.

If I shouted, "ya big poof", at somebody that clearly wasn't gay, there would still be an outcry and claims of homophobia.

Pretty sure we can safely say NOBODY in a crowd of fans (with maybe the exception of yourself) if they heard the word ******* being shouted would think "ah, someone born out of wedlock"

monktonharp
03-05-2019, 02:43 AM
The Airdrie fans used to sing-he’s black, he’s gay he plays for Airderay...the Gorgie mob like to occasionally sing that all the Hibees are gay. disnae bother me in the slightest and its a bit like if the guy next door was that way inclined, disnae bother me in the slightest. we are what we are. Live and let live.

DetroitHibs
03-05-2019, 05:22 AM
I think Dempster is wrong on this one. I don’t care or want to know what someone’s sexuality is, that’s there business. Just like I don’t want nor care to know what religion, political beliefs, or what they had for breakfast. All I care about is seeing a winning Hibs team, end off.

Onceinawhile
03-05-2019, 06:10 AM
the Gorgie mob like to occasionally sing that all the Hibees are gay. disnae bother me in the slightest and its a bit like if the guy next door was that way inclined, disnae bother me in the slightest. we are what we are. Live and let live.

Unless you're gay, them signing that song wouldn't bother you though. That's the point. Straight people can't say we'll gay being used as a derogatory term doesn't bother me. It's discriminatory.

Onceinawhile
03-05-2019, 06:12 AM
I think Dempster is wrong on this one. I don’t care or want to know what someone’s sexuality is, that’s there business. Just like I don’t want nor care to know what religion, political beliefs, or what they had for breakfast. All I care about is seeing a winning Hibs team, end off.

Except people can choose their religion, their political beliefs and what they had for breakfast, but not their sexuality. That's a total false equivelancy.

DetroitHibs
03-05-2019, 08:17 AM
Except people can choose their religion, their political beliefs and what they had for breakfast, but not their sexuality. That's a total false equivelancy.

Nothing about it is false. I’ll take it a step further and also don’t care what colour or creed a player is, also something they can’t change. I go to a football game for one thing, see my team win. I don’t want to know each and every players business, sexual preference being one. When I watch Hibs, I’m watching a team. I give no second thoughts to the a players personal life, colour, or whatever the case may be. I’m there to support the team as a whole and that’s it.

Smartie
03-05-2019, 08:22 AM
In a debate where there is a level of sensitivity towards political correctness there can be a temptation to dissect the smallest details of people's posts looking for hidden meanings or ulterior motives.

Pretty much everyone on here is saying that they are interested in Hibs winning games and not the gender of the people players have relationships with.

This is surely a good thing, no?

30 years ago people were very interested in the race, sexuality and religion of players to the extent that they would hurl abuse at them.

I have to say that I'm encouraged by the content of this thread and would rather take it on face value than look for any hidden problems.

Spike Mandela
03-05-2019, 08:22 AM
One day we will just have a player with no need to be ‘openly’ anything except a football player, preferably a good one.

One Day Soon
03-05-2019, 08:34 AM
She's probably right.

Presumably the comment was made as part of a discussion or interview with Tom English about either wider football matters or her role in the game, otherwise it seems a bit of an odd thing to specifically raise or pursue.

There are plenty of things that Scottish football is 'ready for' or perhaps more accurately 'needs'. From the point of view of improving the game, having a player come out as openly gay wouldn't be either my top objective or my most fervent wish. Good if it happens, but not a literal game changer.

I'd put eliminating sectarianism, dramatically improving the quality of refereeing and clearing out and restructuring the people and organisations that run the Scottish game (and its league system too) way ahead of anything else. These are things that Chief Executives could have some degree of control over. An individual player coming out is a personal matter which clubs and officials cannot control.

FilipinoHibs
03-05-2019, 09:04 AM
Yes. He came out in an interview in the Sun 2-3 years before he signed for Hearts.

Ironic Hearts having a gay player with their puerile all the Hibies are gay chant. I once met Justin in a bar in London on Friday night. Pissed as a fart. He was playing in the Edinburgh derby the next day.

Forza Fred
03-05-2019, 09:17 AM
The fact that this is raised on this forum as a possible issue suggests, sadly, that in today’s Scottish society, it likely will be an issue.

But it is a generational thing, and as time goes on will be less and less of one.

Sylar
03-05-2019, 09:19 AM
In a debate where there is a level of sensitivity towards political correctness there can be a temptation to dissect the smallest details of people's posts looking for hidden meanings or ulterior motives.

Pretty much everyone on here is saying that they are interested in Hibs winning games and not the gender of the people players have relationships with.

This is surely a good thing, no?

30 years ago people were very interested in the race, sexuality and religion of players to the extent that they would hurl abuse at them.

I have to say that I'm encouraged by the content of this thread and would rather take it on face value than look for any hidden problems.

Indeed, and the responses to the thread since I started it have been encouraging. But then, on the whole, those that post on here are quite progressive, decent folks (with the odd exception :greengrin).

Like most, I wish it wasn't an issue - I wish it weren't a topic we were still debating in 2019, and I wish I had read Leeann's comment and thought "duh, of course".

As I said in my OP, I doubt we'd have mass terrace chants against a player if they were to chose to "come out" (or be "outed", by being seen with any partner in public etc). But it doesn't take mass chants to have any sort of impact.

I can't recall the team (lower league Scottish team), but a player with depression was getting people shouting from the sidelines about suicide etc during a match - if that type of thing is happening in our grounds about an issue that really doesn't merit much prejudice, I can only imagine what type of environment an openly gay player might face.

I watch 22 guys running around a patch of grass, hoping 11 of them triumph every weekend. I don't give any thought to who's wearing the jersey - their colour, their religion, their political preference, their sexuality - I only care that they put in 100% effort on the park and act professionally, and hopefully win.

While attitudes toward non-heteronormative people has improved over the years (evidenced by the marriage equality laws etc), there's still a large part of society that are prejudice against these people (particularly the older generation and some religious groups). And much like society, these people are part of the crowd that goes to football.

JeMeSouviens
03-05-2019, 09:46 AM
Indeed, and the responses to the thread since I started it have been encouraging. But then, on the whole, those that post on here are quite progressive, decent folks (with the odd exception :greengrin).

Like most, I wish it wasn't an issue - I wish it weren't a topic we were still debating in 2019, and I wish I had read Leeann's comment and thought "duh, of course".

As I said in my OP, I doubt we'd have mass terrace chants against a player if they were to chose to "come out" (or be "outed", by being seen with any partner in public etc). But it doesn't take mass chants to have any sort of impact.

I can't recall the team (lower league Scottish team), but a player with depression was getting people shouting from the sidelines about suicide etc during a match - if that type of thing is happening in our grounds about an issue that really doesn't merit much prejudice, I can only imagine what type of environment an openly gay player might face.

I watch 22 guys running around a patch of grass, hoping 11 of them triumph every weekend. I don't give any thought to who's wearing the jersey - their colour, their religion, their political preference, their sexuality - I only care that they put in 100% effort on the park and act professionally, and hopefully win.

While attitudes toward non-heteronormative people has improved over the years (evidenced by the marriage equality laws etc), there's still a large part of society that are prejudice against these people (particularly the older generation and some religious groups). And much like society, these people are part of the crowd that goes to football.


O/t but ...

What a word! :greengrin

JeMeSouviens
03-05-2019, 09:50 AM
Surely that's the same argument with a number of words, though.

If I shouted, "ya big poof", at somebody that clearly wasn't gay, there would still be an outcry and claims of homophobia.

The chances are you'd be shouting "ya big poof" to question the clearly-non-gay man's masculinity in some way, no? So it's still being used to point up perceived negative characteristics of gay people, ie. it's homophobic.

Calling someone a ******* these days makes no reference to them being born out of wedlock or any preconceptions about people who are born out of wedlock. The meaning of the word has moved on and language is defined by its meaning, not its etymology.

One Day Soon
03-05-2019, 10:37 AM
The chances are you'd be shouting "ya big poof" to question the clearly-non-gay man's masculinity in some way, no? So it's still being used to point up perceived negative characteristics of gay people, ie. it's homophobic.

Calling someone a ******* these days makes no reference to them being born out of wedlock or any preconceptions about people who are born out of wedlock. The meaning of the word has moved on and language is defined by its meaning, not its etymology.


:top marks

From 'non-heteronormative' to 'meaning, not etymology' in just three posts. I'd say .net is ready for someone openly periphrastic.

oldbutdim
03-05-2019, 10:48 AM
Ironic Hearts having a gay player with their puerile all the Hibies are gay chant. I once met Justin in a bar in London on Friday night. Pissed as a fart. He was playing in the Edinburgh derby the next day.

Did he make it?
Or did you deliberately let him sleep in?

JeMeSouviens
03-05-2019, 11:12 AM
:top marks

From 'non-heteronormative' to 'meaning, not etymology' in just three posts. I'd say .net is ready for someone openly periphrastic.

Not ashamed to say I had to look that up. But it will have to take a back seat to non-heteronormative as word to try and drop into as many conversations as possible this weekend. :greengrin

FilipinoHibs
03-05-2019, 11:20 AM
the Gorgie mob like to occasionally sing that all the Hibees are gay. disnae bother me in the slightest and its a bit like if the guy next door was that way inclined, disnae bother me in the slightest. we are what we are. Live and let live.

But I bet it bothers the gay Hearts fans.

FilipinoHibs
03-05-2019, 11:27 AM
Did he make it?
Or did you deliberately let him sleep in?

My mate a Liverpudlian Irish catholic and we plied him with drink. Needed a taxi home. Made the game but gather was pish but difficult to tell if he was pished before ever Hearts game or was just pish. Nice guy though. Mate a former British Amateur boxing champ and I both straight as anything but not in the slightest homophobic. He talked about the fact there were lots of gay players in the game but frightened to come out because of the fans. 25 years later have we moved on?. Tragically he hung himself a couple of days after I came back to Scotland near where I lived in London.

Keith_M
03-05-2019, 12:19 PM
Pretty sure we can safely say NOBODY in a crowd of fans (with maybe the exception of yourself) if they heard the word ******* being shouted would think "ah, someone born out of wedlock"


I'm just trying to raise awareness of a much maligned part of the population.

FilipinoHibs
03-05-2019, 12:27 PM
I'm just trying to raise awareness of a much maligned part of the population.

Half of us are *******s the other half inbred Rangers/Hearts/Celtic fans. I know which side I would rather be on.

ancient hibee
03-05-2019, 01:05 PM
When Justin rented a flat in the New Town he claimed it was overrun with rats/mice so he hired a guy to sit in there at night and kill any that appeared.He was a bit nonplussed when it was pointed out to him that the guy was never going to claim to have killed them and do himself out of a job.A very nice bloke.

Killiehibbie
03-05-2019, 02:07 PM
I don't think the narrow minded bigots in this world will ever be ready for anything that they consider not 'right'

Mibbes Aye
03-05-2019, 02:15 PM
Except people can choose their religion, their political beliefs and what they had for breakfast, but not their sexuality. That's a total false equivelancy.

Not sure that’s true. Lots of people have experimented with their sexuality throughout time, same as any other aspect of their identity.

I agreed with the point you made previous to that.

FranckSuzy
03-05-2019, 03:51 PM
IF a player was to 'come out' in order to make their life easier, i.e., not having to live their life in fear of being 'outed', being able to have a normal social life with their partner, not feel they are being scrutinised - or the subject of gossip - then I would support their decision 100%. I can only imagine the strain they would feel having to essentially live a lie and strangely enough, it may be such a relief that they can be open about an important element of their life, that their career actually flourishes.

If, however, their 'coming out' is to fulfil some quota or prove how inclusive their employer is I would be totally against it as their well-being, mental health, life outside/after football is the most important consideration here, IMHO. Sadly, I reckon you'd have to be pretty resilient character to be open about your sexuality in 21st century Scotland...

Bostonhibby
03-05-2019, 04:16 PM
IF a player was to 'come out' in order to make their life easier, i.e., not having to live their life in fear of being 'outed', being able to have a normal social life with their partner, not feel they are being scrutinised - or the of subject of gossip - then I would support their decision 100%. I can only imagine the strain they would feel having to essentially live a lie and strangely enough, it may be such a relief that they can be open about an important element of their life, that their career actually flourishes.

If, however, their 'coming out' is to fulfil some quota or prove how inclusive their employer is I would be totally against it as their well-being, mental health, life outside/after football is the most important consideration here, IMHO. Sadly, I reckon you'd have to be pretty resilient character to be open about your sexuality in 21st century Scotland...The voice of reason [emoji106][emoji106]

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

JeMeSouviens
03-05-2019, 04:17 PM
IF a player was to 'come out' in order to make their life easier, i.e., not having to live their life in fear of being 'outed', being able to have a normal social life with their partner, not feel they are being scrutinised - or the of subject of gossip - then I would support their decision 100%. I can only imagine the strain they would feel having to essentially live a lie and strangely enough, it may be such a relief that they can be open about an important element of their life, that their career actually flourishes.

If, however, their 'coming out' is to fulfil some quota or prove how inclusive their employer is I would be totally against it as their well-being, mental health, life outside/after football is the most important consideration here, IMHO. Sadly, I reckon you'd have to be pretty resilient character to be open about your sexuality in 21st century Scotland...

:agree:

I think it will be great when we have openly gay players in terms of moving society forwards. But the bottom line is its totally up to the individuals concerned to do it when they feel comfortable to do so.

where'stheslope
03-05-2019, 04:22 PM
IF a player was to 'come out' in order to make their life easier, i.e., not having to live their life in fear of being 'outed', being able to have a normal social life with their partner, not feel they are being scrutinised - or the of subject of gossip - then I would support their decision 100%. I can only imagine the strain they would feel having to essentially live a lie and strangely enough, it may be such a relief that they can be open about an important element of their life, that their career actually flourishes.

If, however, their 'coming out' is to fulfil some quota or prove how inclusive their employer is I would be totally against it as their well-being, mental health, life outside/after football is the most important consideration here, IMHO. Sadly, I reckon you'd have to be pretty resilient character to be open about your sexuality in 21st century Scotland...
Who would care if he managed to score 4 goals in his debute against the Hertz!
What ever else they are, if they play good football, what's the problem!!!!!

FranckSuzy
03-05-2019, 04:50 PM
Who would care if he managed to score 4 goals in his debute against the Hertz!
What ever else they are, if they play good football, what's the problem!!!!!

Correct, but....

THEY may care if their personal life was being discussed/ridiculed/sang about. If, however, THEY don't care then good on them but it's nobody else's damn business what their sexual orientation is.

proud_and_green
03-05-2019, 05:34 PM
Who would care if he managed to score 4 goals in his debute against the Hertz!
What ever else they are, if they play good football, what's the problem!!!!!That implies that if he didn't score 4 goals on his debut it would be a problem.

Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk

CathroMustStay
03-05-2019, 06:11 PM
She's probably right.

Presumably the comment was made as part of a discussion or interview with Tom English about either wider football matters or her role in the game, otherwise it seems a bit of an odd thing to specifically raise or pursue.

There are plenty of things that Scottish football is 'ready for' or perhaps more accurately 'needs'. From the point of view of improving the game, having a player come out as openly gay wouldn't be either my top objective or my most fervent wish. Good if it happens, but not a literal game changer.

I'd put eliminating sectarianism, dramatically improving the quality of refereeing and clearing out and restructuring the people and organisations that run the Scottish game (and its league system too) way ahead of anything else. These are things that Chief Executives could have some degree of control over. An individual player coming out is a personal matter which clubs and officials cannot control.

While sectarianism obviously remains hugely problematic in Scotland, the difference is that there are dozens upon dozens of catholic and non-protestant players who experience no specific abuse in professional Scottish football, bar Ibrox or Tynecastle when it comes to specific (usually ex-Celtic) figures i.e. Neil Lennon.

That doesn't mean the above isn't still a big issue to address, but why not tackle both? You can walk & chew gum at the same time.

Furthermore it's entirely different in that there are literally zero openly gay (or even bisexual) players in professional Scottish football. And perhaps it's not an objective for you because... well, you aren't directly affected by it and/or don't possess enough empathy on this particular subject.

It's honestly as if some people think such players being on an equal footing to heterosexual players means suddenly fans would have to 'sexually experiment' against their will, may be rejected from stadiums if they can't recite Abba lyrics on cue etc! The ignorance some hide behind 'PC gone mad' rhetoric is revealing indeed.

jacomo
03-05-2019, 09:02 PM
I don't think the narrow minded bigots in this world will ever be ready for anything that they consider not 'right'


My view is that there is probably a higher % of bigots working in the game than amongst the fans.

I don’t think it’s the supporters that are stopping a gay player coming out, but it’s a convenient line.

One Day Soon
03-05-2019, 11:06 PM
While sectarianism obviously remains hugely problematic in Scotland, the difference is that there are dozens upon dozens of catholic and non-protestant players who experience no specific abuse in professional Scottish football, bar Ibrox or Tynecastle when it comes to specific (usually ex-Celtic) figures i.e. Neil Lennon.

That doesn't mean the above isn't still a big issue to address, but why not tackle both? You can walk & chew gum at the same time.

Furthermore it's entirely different in that there are literally zero openly gay (or even bisexual) players in professional Scottish football. And perhaps it's not an objective for you because... well, you aren't directly affected by it and/or don't possess enough empathy on this particular subject.

It's honestly as if some people think such players being on an equal footing to heterosexual players means suddenly fans would have to 'sexually experiment' against their will, may be rejected from stadiums if they can't recite Abba lyrics on cue etc! The ignorance some hide behind 'PC gone mad' rhetoric is revealing indeed.


Did you mean to reply to someone else's post because you clearly haven't read mine properly?

Hannah_hfc
04-05-2019, 12:08 AM
I’m heartened that such a topic is having reasonable discussion! The problem with football nowadays is anything pinpointed as a potential slagging point will be used by fans against a player on the pitch- I’ve seen players abused over as little as hairstyles.

From my own experience, I’d say society in general has got better compared to even 10 years ago. Unfortunately I still believe football is way behind the times, I’ll still sit at Easter Road with the occasional shout of “Poof” around me directed at a player and I feel we are still a few years off it.

I can guarantee we have all watched closeted players throughout the years. It’s sad they’ll have had to hide their true selves just to avoid the hassle from the stands.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

SouthMoroccoStu
04-05-2019, 08:34 AM
Considering the amount “oh the Hibees are gay” comments (not forgetting the likes and laughing emojis made in support) made on the official BBC Sport Scotland Facebook page connected to this article it shows how many are still in the dark ages

Black white gay straight religious or not it really shouldn’t matter 1 jot! However there are too many that have backwards opinions and feel their Neanderthal views have to be heard

calumhibee1
04-05-2019, 08:35 AM
I’m heartened that such a topic is having reasonable discussion! The problem with football nowadays is anything pinpointed as a potential slagging point will be used by fans against a player on the pitch- I’ve seen players abused over as little as hairstyles.

From my own experience, I’d say society in general has got better compared to even 10 years ago. Unfortunately I still believe football is way behind the times, I’ll still sit at Easter Road with the occasional shout of “Poof” around me directed at a player and I feel we are still a few years off it.

I can guarantee we have all watched closeted players throughout the years. It’s sad they’ll have had to hide their true selves just to avoid the hassle from the stands.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yup. I can’t believe nobody has ever been “caught out” for want of a better way to describe it. Like you said there must have been hundreds of gay players over the years.

Do people reckon the ratios that LD talks about would be the case in football though? I play 5s etc regularly, have played youth football, amateur football, probably played football with thousands of different people yet I only know of one openly gay person I’ve played football with. Maybe because of the perceived intolerance a lot of gay people stay away from football?

HUTCHYHIBBY
04-05-2019, 08:42 AM
That implies that if he didn't score 4 goals on his debut it would be a problem.

Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk

Does it aye? 😳

Baldy Foghorn
04-05-2019, 08:50 AM
Correct, but....

THEY may care if their personal life was being discussed/ridiculed/sang about. If, however, THEY don't care then good on them but it's nobody else's damn business what their sexual orientation is.

Correct, it is noboby's business bar the person in question. I am quite sure we have had gay players who were scared to openly admit it, for fear of being abused.

We all bleed the same.....

makaveli1875
04-05-2019, 09:01 AM
Considering the amount “oh the Hibees are gay” comments (not forgetting the likes and laughing emojis made in support) made on the official BBC Sport Scotland Facebook page connected to this article it shows how many are still in the dark ages

Black white gay straight religious or not it really shouldn’t matter 1 jot! However there are too many that have backwards opinions and feel their Neanderthal views have to be heard

Why do the neanderthals always get brought into these threads , is there any evidence to suggest they were bigoted , homophobic or went on orange walks ?

Hibs90
04-05-2019, 09:22 AM
I’m heartened that such a topic is having reasonable discussion! The problem with football nowadays is anything pinpointed as a potential slagging point will be used by fans against a player on the pitch- I’ve seen players abused over as little as hairstyles.

From my own experience, I’d say society in general has got better compared to even 10 years ago. Unfortunately I still believe football is way behind the times, I’ll still sit at Easter Road with the occasional shout of “Poof” around me directed at a player and I feel we are still a few years off it.

I can guarantee we have all watched closeted players throughout the years. It’s sad they’ll have had to hide their true selves just to avoid the hassle from the stands.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have never once heard the shout 'poof' at ER or an away ground.

BoomtownHibees
04-05-2019, 09:33 AM
I have never once heard the shout 'poof' at ER or an away ground.

You’re kidding eh?

Borderhibbie76
04-05-2019, 09:42 AM
I have never once heard the shout 'poof' at ER or an away ground.No offence mate but you must be hard of hearing then?? Coz frankly I hear it most weeks and that's from our own fans too

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

Hannah_hfc
04-05-2019, 10:10 AM
I have never once heard the shout 'poof' at ER or an away ground.

How fortunate


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

bigwheel
04-05-2019, 10:12 AM
No offence mate but you must be hard of hearing then?? Coz frankly I hear it most weeks and that's from our own fans too

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

Do you really...it's not a term I hear much anywhere these days - was more an 80s/90s insult..hear other homophobic terms unfortunately but rarely that one....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Borderhibbie76
04-05-2019, 10:24 AM
Do you really...it's not a term I hear much anywhere these days - was more an 80s/90s insult..hear other homophobic terms unfortunately but rarely that one....


Sent from my iPad using TapatalkWell not that word specifically mate but as u say plenty of other homophobic remarks

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

bigwheel
04-05-2019, 10:25 AM
Well not that word specifically mate but as u say plenty of other homophobic remarks

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

Ah. Yes agreed. Lots of dinosaurs still around in all fans ....

Smartie
04-05-2019, 10:29 AM
That implies that if he didn't score 4 goals on his debut it would be a problem.

Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk


Does it aye? ��

I think there is a fair point being made here though.

If playing gay players guaranteed goals in games against Hearts then we'd be signing exclusively gay players.

Players don't always cut it and sometimes they come in for criticism. What if our first gay player is a cut price replacement for someone like SJM? What about when he makes a split second decision to pull out of a 50/50 against Hearts? What if a ball hits his backside and goes in for an own goal in a derby? What if he puts in the type of performance that makes you wonder if he was out the night before? What about when his performance level drops significantly as he very publicly tries to push through a move to Sevco after being a huge success when we've taken him to our hearts? These are all things that football players do, irrespective of race, religion or sexuality.

How ok is it under those circumstances?

How would we react?

Is Scottish football ready for it's first openly gay pish player?

And it's all very well talking about how we'd welcome a gay player scoring 4 against Hearts. What if he were to score 4 against us for Hearts?

superfurryhibby
04-05-2019, 11:17 AM
Do you really...it's not a term I hear much anywhere these days - was more an 80s/90s insult..hear other homophobic terms unfortunately but rarely that one....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Agreed. I sit in the west lower and rarely hear any racist/ homophobic insults.

On the wider point, I would guess that any openly gay player is going to encounter abuse from opposition fans on field. chants along the lines of ****** likes it up the arse etc. He’s gay, he’s bent, his arse is up for rent....It would happen, of that I’ve no doubt.

Not sure how a dressing room would respond, but again I can imagine there would be “ banter” aplenty.

Whilst wider society has moved on in attitudes, there are some cultures that are less progressive and sadly football is one of them. People sing and shout all kinds of things in the context of a match that the6 would probably never voice ( so openly at least) elsewhere. Anyone who’s played the game, at any level, will know what a dressing room is like. Slagging and picking on people’s traits can all be part of team culture. Mostly taken and given in good spirits, but sometimes as annoying as ****.

I would totally respect anyone who came out and openly said they were gay, but It will come with a price for them.