Hibernian youth development

[tonyrougier123]

Is it currently a failure?

Are we not getting the talent required?

Is the transition from development to first team not as fluent as other clubs?

Off the back of lewis allan soon to be ending his time with hibs I was thinking about our set up.whilst we give youth a chance it doesent seem to be working at the moment.
Not many making the breakthrough at all.its quite concerning the results for a club like hibs.
Relative success over the years,always seem to be up challenging and winning trophies in the development and youth leagues,but doesnt seem to transition well.
Does the set up need changes?
Or is it a case of talent heading elsewhere?do we need to cast our net further?
I remember an interview with george craig where he said hibs main competitor for boys in the EH catchment is hearts.should we be looking west as well?
Some decent talent pushing through at other clubs whilst we seem to release alot of prospects. not just recently but over the last twenty years or so.
How can the figures improve?
Is hibs still a good choice for talented young footballers?
Was wondering what other opinions hibs fans had on this topic.the mowbray/bobby williamson era brought a very good group through but thats been a while now for something similar.
Thoughts fellow hibees please.

[Stuart93]

Is it currently a failure?

Are we not getting the talent required?

Is the transition from development to first team not as fluent as other clubs?

Off the back of lewis allan soon to be ending his time with hibs I was thinking about our set up.whilst we give youth a chance it doesent seem to be working at the moment.
Not many making the breakthrough at all.its quite concerning the results for a club like hibs.
Relative success over the years,always seem to be up challenging and winning trophies in the development and youth leagues,but doesnt seem to transition well.
Does the set up need changes?
Or is it a case of talent heading elsewhere?do we need to cast our net further?
I remember an interview with george craig where he said hibs main competitor for boys in the EH catchment is hearts.should we be looking west as well?
Some decent talent pushing through at other clubs whilst we seem to release alot of prospects. not just recently but over the last twenty years or so.
How can the figures improve?
Is hibs still a good choice for talented young footballers?
Was wondering what other opinions hibs fans had on this topic.the mowbray/bobby williamson era brought a very good group through but thats been a while now for something similar.
Thoughts fellow hibees please.

So are we ignoring F. Murray, Porteous & Mackie? Who have been in and around the first team all season?

[500miles]

So are we ignoring F. Murray, Porteous & Mackie? Who have been in and around the first team all season?

Gullane will be in the squad soon too.

[CapitalGreen]

From earlier this season - http://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/9408

"Over 30% of the minutes played in the league by Hibernian players have been by players trained by the club for at least three seasons between the ages of 15 and 21.

The data was compiled by the Football Observatory, a research group within Switzerland’s International Centre for Sports Studies, and covered the period from 01/7/18 to 30/10/18.

It covers 31 top-flight European leagues, with Hibernian showing the highest percentage of any UK top-flight team for minutes played by club-trained players."

[easty]

So are we ignoring F. Murray, Porteous & Mackie? Who have been in and around the first team all season?

Didn't we buy Mackie? From Raith?

[CapitalGreen]

Didn't we buy Mackie? From Raith?

Mackie signed from Raith in Feb 2016, he has spent 3 years with Hibs youth development while he was only with Raith for less than a year.

[tonyrougier123]

So are we ignoring F. Murray, Porteous & Mackie? Who have been in and around the first team all season?

That was one of my points and only my opinion on the subject,we give them a chance but its rarely sustained involvement.of the three mentioned porteous is the exception imo.

[easty]

Mackie signed from Raith in Feb 2016, he has spent 3 years with Hibs youth development while he was only with Raith for less than a year.

Just checked, he played for their first team in the Championship (once) before we signed him...dunno if we can claim him as a product of our academy. Seems a stretch.

[Onceinawhile]

That was one of my points and only my opinion on the subject,we give them a chance but its rarely sustained involvement.of the three mentioned porteous is the exception imo.

How many players are you expecting to break through in one year? The fact of the matter is that players develop at different speeds and therefore one age group is unlikely to produce 5 or 6 players at one time. In addition, some players just don't fulfill their potential for whatever reason. Look at the team that won the league and cup double about 10 years ago. From memory Sean Walsh and Callum booth are the only two still playing at any sort of decent level. (I think Paul Hanlon was also in this age group, but was playing in the first team instead).

This season Ryan Porteous was (until his injury) a mainstay in the team. Olly Shaw has played 24 games, scoring 6 goals. Fraser Murray has been involved as has Sean Mackie.

If Sean Mackie and Fraser Murray are more involved next year, that will be 4 players breaking through in the last two seasons. That is a brilliant return.

You mention the group under Mowbray - how many other teams can you think of who have had a break through generation? Even motherwell who are going through something similar at the moment have only managed three players - Turnbull, Hastie and Campbell. Manchester United are maybe another who had the class of '92 and Ajax in 95(?). We are talking about 3 or 4 teams in 25 years who have had more than one or two players break through together.

Ajax for example are famed for their youth academy, but they only bleed one or two players in per year, unless they have an extraordinary crop.

We all want to see 5 or 6 players come through at once and totally shift the dynamic in the team, but the reality is that it's unlikely to happen again at any time in the next 40 years to us.

If we can get one or two players per year coming up and adding to the squad, we will have done very well.

[CapitalGreen]

Just checked, he played for their first team in the Championship (once) before we signed him...dunno if we can claim him as a product of our academy. Seems a stretch.

Was he first team ready for us when we signed him?

- No

Has he spent 3 years working within our Academy system and playing for our Youth Teams?

- Yes

Is he now first team ready?

- Yes

The above to me would suggest he is a product of our Academy. Out of interest, how long do you believe someone needs to be with an academy before they would be considered an academy product?

[easty]

Was he first team ready for us when we signed him?

- No

Has he spent 3 years working within our Academy system and playing for our Youth Teams?

- Yes

Is he now first team ready?

- Yes

The above to me would suggest he is a product of our Academy. Out of interest, how long do you believe someone needs to be with an academy before they would be considered an academy product?

Nae bother mate...I wasn't looking for a power point presentation, relax. You can have your opinion.

[green day]

From earlier this season - http://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/9408

"Over 30% of the minutes played in the league by Hibernian players have been by players trained by the club for at least three seasons between the ages of 15 and 21.

The data was compiled by the Football Observatory, a research group within Switzerland’s International Centre for Sports Studies, and covered the period from 01/7/18 to 30/10/18.

It covers 31 top-flight European leagues, with Hibernian showing the highest percentage of any UK top-flight team for minutes played by club-trained players."

^ This is the answer to any questions about how "successful" our youth development is - its been mentioned meny times that the job of our youth coaches is to get players ready for the first team. Winning youth leagues and cups is secondary (although nice).

I really dont think people look closely or critically enough at other clubs first team squads when levelling this criticism at Hibs.

[CapitalGreen]

Nae bother mate...I wasn't looking for a power point presentation, relax. You can have your opinion.

I'm still interested in your opinion of how long you believe someone needs to be with an academy before they would be considered an academy product?

[easty]

I'm still interested in your opinion of how long you believe someone needs to be with an academy before they would be considered an academy product?

Dunno, I've never considered any kind of criteria in relation to it.

When a player has played in the second tier of Scottish football before he signs for us though...I'd not say he's a product of our youth development. For comparison, was Raheem Sterling a product of Liverpools youth development? Signed from QPR, then over 2 years later makes his Liverpool debut. I wouldn't say so.

But...I really don't care. Mackie's a good player.

[CapitalGreen]

Dunno, I've never considered any kind of criteria in relation to it.

When a player has played in the second tier of Scottish football before he signs for us though...I'd not say he's a product of our youth development. For comparison, was Raheem Sterling a product of Liverpools youth development? Signed from QPR, then over 2 years later makes his Liverpool debut. I wouldn't say so.

But...I really don't care. Mackie's a good player.

I'd say Sterling was yes, he developed as a player within the Academy system at Liverpool for 2 years before getting to a level he was ready for the first team. I would also say he was a QPR academy product too. You can attend multiple institutions for academic education, the same applies in football.

[easty]

I'd say Sterling was yes, he developed as a player within the Academy system at Liverpool for 2 years before getting to a level he was ready for the first team. I would also say he was a QPR academy product too. You can attend multiple institutions for academic education, the same applies in football.

Honestly, I just don't really care.

You say potato I say potato.

[AgentDaleCooper]

r.e. Olly Shaw - he's made about as much of an impact as Deeks had by the same stage, who was kicking about the first team for the 2001-02 and 2002-03 seasons without making much of a splash.

[superfurryhibby]

^ This is the answer to any questions about how "successful" our youth development is - its been mentioned meny times that the job of our youth coaches is to get players ready for the first team. Winning youth leagues and cups is secondary (although nice).

I really dont think people look closely or critically enough at other clubs first team squads when levelling this criticism at Hibs.

Once the players are ready, and winning or competing well in their age/development group competition surely is a benchmark, then it must be up to the first team coaches to take them forward.

I agree with you, we have plenty young players making a contribution, with some even having an impact.

I still question the wider benefits of pro youth football. Does the return justify the outlay? Has the pro youth approach made Scottish laddies better players than the old system of s- form signings and youngsters linking up with pro clubs? Maybe hard to quantify, but I’m not fully convinced.

[Since452]

You very rarely produce a real gem through the youth system. We've produced one in Porteous who'll go for millions. Might be another few years before we produce another one. I think we've done not too bad in Porteous and to a lesser extent Shaw. I've high hopes for Mackie too.

[sambajustice]

Heckingbottom brought through a lot of good young players at Barnsley. Hopefully he can have an influence here too

[BSEJVT]

Off topic slightly but where I think we have really missed a trick recently is in acquiring young up and coming players from lower league clubs ready to play

Only one I can think off in recent memory is SJM

[calumhibee1]

Off topic slightly but where I think we have really missed a trick recently is in acquiring young up and coming players from lower league clubs ready to play

Only one I can think off in recent memory is SJM

St Mirren were technically a higher league club :greengrin I agree with the point though.

[Jones28]

Off topic slightly but where I think we have really missed a trick recently is in acquiring young up and coming players from lower league clubs ready to play

Only one I can think off in recent memory is SJM

How many of these lads actually go on to be successes though? Andy Robertson obviously, and John McGinn - although he was technically the league above us at the time - too, but then there have been flops as well. Jamie Insall for one, and Dylan Bikey for a Hearts off the top of my head.

[allezsauzee]

r.e. Olly Shaw - he's made about as much of an impact as Deeks had by the same stage, who was kicking about the first team for the 2001-02 and 2002-03 seasons without making much of a splash.

Oli is 21 and when Deek was that age he was a first team regular, however who is to say that they would both develop at the same rate. I think Oli needs to go out on loan to get a regular game and gain experience . At the moment he's not good enough to be a first team regular but he has obvious potential.

[BSEJVT]

How many of these lads actually go on to be successes though? Andy Robertson obviously, and John McGinn - although he was technically the league above us at the time - too, but then there have been flops as well. Jamie Insall for one, and Dylan Bikey for a Hearts off the top of my head.

One of the things I liked best about the Mowbray & Stubbs teams was that they picked up unpolished on unfulfilled talent and gave it a platform.

You could argue that we are / have done that with some loan players but we should IMO be looking to sign up the likes of Lewis Ferguson as developing loan players doesn't bring us the financial rewards we need to keep progressing when they are sold.

I do accept though that they may contribute by higher league placings and better crowds watching a successful team

Fully accept that such talents are few and far between but they are out there and IMO we don't pick up anywhere near our share to the extent that I am not sure its a market we are even interested in.

[Jones28]

One of the things I liked best about the Mowbray & Stubbs teams was that they picked up unpolished on unfulfilled talent and gave it a platform.

You could argue that we are / have done that with some loan players but we should IMO be looking to sign up the likes of Lewis Ferguson as developing loan players doesn't bring us the financial rewards we need to keep progressing when they are sold.

I do accept though that they may contribute by higher league placings and better crowds watching a successful team

Fully accept that such talents are few and far between but they are out there and IMO we don't pick up anywhere near our share to the extent that I am not sure its a market we are even interested in.


I agree that it was one of the qualities of that Mowbray team. However I have always been of the mind that, though Mowbray was a good manager, he got extremely lucky with the emerging talent at his disposal. I always felt that the players he actually signed were nowhere near hat level - with the exception of Murphy, Sproule and Boozy. I wouldn't level the same at Stubbs though, he managed to attract some real gems to the club - Malonga, McGinn, Allan, McGeouch, Henderson et al.

If we were to go round and cherry pick from the smaller clubs I think that is a good business model. For example I think we should pull out all the stops to get Turnbull from Motherwell and Brophy from Killie.

RE the bit in bold I don't know if it may be because like you say they are so few and far between.

[Stuart93]

One of the things I liked best about the Mowbray & Stubbs teams was that they picked up unpolished on unfulfilled talent and gave it a platform.

You could argue that we are / have done that with some loan players but we should IMO be looking to sign up the likes of Lewis Ferguson as developing loan players doesn't bring us the financial rewards we need to keep progressing when they are sold.

I do accept though that they may contribute by higher league placings and better crowds watching a successful team

Fully accept that such talents are few and far between but they are out there and IMO we don't pick up anywhere near our share to the extent that I am not sure its a market we are even interested in.

Yep I’d much rather we done this, wasn’t comfortable reading Hecky saying in an interview that the loan market is where we’d be looking to operate

[BSEJVT]

I agree that it was one of the qualities of that Mowbray team. However I have always been of the mind that, though Mowbray was a good manager, he got extremely lucky with the emerging talent at his disposal. I always felt that the players he actually signed were nowhere near hat level - with the exception of Murphy, Sproule and Boozy. I wouldn't level the same at Stubbs though, he managed to attract some real gems to the club - Malonga, McGinn, Allan, McGeouch, Henderson et al.

If we were to go round and cherry pick from the smaller clubs I think that is a good business model. For example I think we should pull out all the stops to get Turnbull from Motherwell and Brophy from Killie.

RE the bit in bold I don't know if it may be because like you say they are so few and far between.

I get the sentiment of your post but I think you are being a bit unfair on Mowbray and maybe talking up Stubbs a bit unfairly as Henderson was only ever a loan signing

I would add Jones, Glass, Benjelloun, Stewart, Shiels & Zemmama (although he could have been a Collins signing) off the top of my head to that list and even Shelton Martis got us a fee

[overdrive]

Just checked, he played for their first team in the Championship (once) before we signed him...dunno if we can claim him as a product of our academy. Seems a stretch.

Mackie is a weird one because I think he was with us before he went to Raith. One of these rare situations where we release someone to then buy them back.

The 30% is skewed by Hanlon and Stevenson (maybe McNulty too).

[w pilton hibby]

Mackie is a weird one because I think he was with us before he went to Raith. One of these rare situations where we release someone to then buy them back.

The 30% is skewed by Hanlon and Stevenson (maybe McNulty too).

And Whittaker?

[MagicSwirlingShip]

I get the sentiment of your post but I think you are being a bit unfair on Mowbray and maybe talking up Stubbs a bit unfairly as Henderson was only ever a loan signing

I would add Jones, Glass, Benjelloun, Stewart, Shiels & Zemmama (although he could have been a Collins signing) off the top of my head to that list and even Shelton Martis got us a fee

Glass was a Bobby Williamson signing.

[MagicSwirlingShip]

I agree that it was one of the qualities of that Mowbray team. However I have always been of the mind that, though Mowbray was a good manager, he got extremely lucky with the emerging talent at his disposal. I always felt that the players he actually signed were nowhere near hat level - with the exception of Murphy, Sproule and Boozy. I wouldn't level the same at Stubbs though, he managed to attract some real gems to the club - Malonga, McGinn, Allan, McGeouch, Henderson et al.

If we were to go round and cherry pick from the smaller clubs I think that is a good business model. For example I think we should pull out all the stops to get Turnbull from Motherwell and Brophy from Killie.

RE the bit in bold I don't know if it may be because like you say they are so few and far between.

Surely George Craig and the recruitment team take some of the plaudits for Stubbs signings too?

[overdrive]

And Whittaker?

Yep.

[MacGruber]

Honestly, I just don't really care.

You say potato I say potato.

Look, you are both wrong. It's potato.