Whataboutary Club of the Month for April

[CMurdoch]

Smeltic following sectarian abuse by their fans of Derek McInnes yesterday

Celtic released an ANONYMOUS statement today:
"Chanting of this nature should have no place in football and we condemn this wholeheartedly," said a Celtic spokesperson.
"We hope the authorities also take the same interest in offensive chanting directed at Celtic Football Club and our supporters at yesterday's match and other games."


:faf::faf::faf:

For all those who had a go at Leanne Dempsters statements and complained that she didn't have a go at opposition fans behaviour, this is what it looks like and how it undermines the sincerity of the condemnation of the behaviour of your own fans.

Leanne Dempster acted positively and didn't blame anyone else for our fans behaviour..
The politicians won't miss this statement and all Celtic have done is stoked the fire. Schoolboy error Victim FC.

Celtic have flagged up that they are part of the problem and will always seek to deflect rather than addressing the issue at hand.

The politicians are comin' to get the arsecheeks..........if brexit is ever sorted out.
Dempster, as always, one step ahead of the curve.

[SChibs]

I can see what they are trying to say. Many clubs are subjected to sectarian chanting and sings from numerous other clubs so why have they decided to investigate this specific incident.

Hopefully it is the start of a clampdown in Scottish football rather than just looking at this one incident.

[givescotlandfreedom]

Hibs and Hearts showing the Glasgow bigots how it's done. That response is infantile and could just as easily have been written by Traynor.

[Clarence]

Typical mammy...daddy...polis reaction you’d expect from one of the ugly sisters.

[Cabbage East]

Smeltic following sectarian abuse by their fans of Derek McInnes yesterday

Celtic released an ANONYMOUS statement today:
"Chanting of this nature should have no place in football and we condemn this wholeheartedly," said a Celtic spokesperson.
"We hope the authorities also take the same interest in offensive chanting directed at Celtic Football Club and our supporters at yesterday's match and other games."


:faf::faf::faf:

For all those who had a go at Leanne Dempsters statements and complained that she didn't have a go at opposition fans behaviour, this is what it looks like and how it undermines the sincerity of the condemnation of the behaviour of your own fans.

Leanne Dempster acted positively and didn't blame anyone else for our fans behaviour..
The politicians won't miss this statement and all Celtic have done is stoked the fire. Schoolboy error Victim FC.

Celtic have flagged up that they are part of the problem and will always seek to deflect rather than addressing the issue at hand.

The politicians are comin' to get the arsecheeks..........if brexit is ever sorted out.
Dempster, as always, one step ahead of the curve.





“Smeltic”. Are you a child?

[BILLYHIBS]

A big bhoy did it and ran away!

:dunno:

[Diclonius]

I can see what they are trying to say. Many clubs are subjected to sectarian chanting and sings from numerous other clubs so why have they decided to investigate this specific incident.

Hopefully it is the start of a clampdown in Scottish football rather than just looking at this one incident.

Nothing gets done because when accused, everyone except very recently us and Hearts just go with the "aye but everyone else is worse" line.

It's not a legitimate complaint, it's a deflection tactic. Celtic and Rangers aren't interested in dealing with their sectarian problem.

[The dalmeny]

Nothing gets done because when accused, everyone except very recently us and Hearts just go with the "aye but everyone else is worse" line.

It's not a legitimate complaint, it's a deflection tactic. Celtic and Rangers aren't interested in dealing with their sectarian problem.

This

[Since452]

Sectarianism is too lucrative for Celtic and Rangers to clamp down on. Their supporters are defined by it. They wont bite the hand that feeds them.

[HFC93]

The Old Firm do the same thing every time. It's so transparent. They have no interest in tackling sectarianism.

[Keith_M]

Nobody at Celtc or The Rangers is going to clamp down on sectarianism and risk alienating their core support.

They'll say the absolute minimum required, and only if under extreme pressure to be seen doing so.

The other side will ALWAYS be more guilty.

[Onion]

Celtic’s response was as predictable as it was pathetic. As pathetic as Sevco claiming their fans were entitled to engage with Hibs supporters in 2016 to protect their players. Deflect, Ignore, Repeat.

Seriously, even the most bigoted politicians must now be thinking these two Glasgow clubs are the thickest thickies in Thickville and that something needs to be done about them. The Celtic statement should have been condemned by the media, but they’ve shown time and again they are also part of the problem.

[neil7908]

Celtic’s response was as predictable as it was pathetic. As pathetic as Sevco claiming their fans were entitled to engage with Hibs supporters in 2016 to protect their players. Deflect, Ignore, Repeat.

Seriously, even the most bigoted politicians must now be thinking these two Glasgow clubs are the thickest thickies in Thickville and that something needs to be done about them. The Celtic statement should have been condemned by the media, but they’ve shown time and again they are also part of the problem.

Totally agree but unfortunately I have no confidence in the authorities or government to treat all clubs fairly on this matter. There may be changes or legislation brought in but I suspect that it will still result in the OF being allowed to continue sectarian singing.

[Pretty Boy]

Nothing gets done because when accused, everyone except very recently us and Hearts just go with the "aye but everyone else is worse" line.

It's not a legitimate complaint, it's a deflection tactic. Celtic and Rangers aren't interested in dealing with their sectarian problem.

Spot on.

People claim to want sectarianism dealt with but they want someone else to do it first. Hibs and Hearts have had a lot of stick from our/their own fans recently but at least the clubs are showing a bit willingness to admit that there is a problem and to try and deal with it.

That statement from Celtic is depressingly predictable. 'Aye we are sort of sorry but other people do it too and some of them are worse than us.' Ultimately if there was a real desire on their part to tackle the issues within their own support it wouldn't matter that others do it too; they would tackle their own issues then look elsewhere with a legitimate entitlement to claim a moral high ground. As said above though there is no desire from Celtic, Rangers, the SPFL or the SFA to deal with sectarianism beyond paying lip service. It's worth far too much money to all involved.

[SonOfDavidFrancey]

It’s depressing to see such a limited understanding of the moral high ground

[Ozyhibby]

It’s depressing to see such a limited understanding of the moral high ground

I don’t think anyone has moral high ground in Scottish football when it comes to this issue. We all turn a blind eye to it.


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[Kojock]

I don’t think anyone has moral high ground in Scottish football when it comes to this issue. We all turn a blind eye to it.


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Our own club included puts pounds over principles.

[The 90+2]

I don’t think anyone has moral high ground in Scottish football when it comes to this issue. We all turn a blind eye to it.


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Everyone always goes out their way to even stuff up though. If it’s a week of condoning 40,000 shouting vile at Lennon for example they will go out their way to find a story of a Dundee fan smashing up a seat or something.

[PeeKay]

I don’t think anyone has moral high ground in Scottish football when it comes to this issue. We all turn a blind eye to it.


Including McInnes himself, who made no comment when the exact same song that he has complained about was targeted at Gerrard by Aberdeen supporters.

[Lago]

Including McInnes himself, who made no comment when the exact same song that he has complained about was targeted at Gerrard by Aberdeen supporters.
And like Celtic right away you point a finger at McInnes, and there by lies the problem, it's always someone else's fault.

[Iggy Pope]

And like Celtic right away you point a finger at McInnes, and there by lies the problem, it's always someone else's fault.

With that take, this thread is dead and there is no scope for discussion on this forum which thrives on whataboutery.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Our own club included puts pounds over principles.

Yes, I have to agree. Let's be honest, the bottom line always wins out at all clubs. However, we must give credit to both Hibs and Hearts for their recent tough action against the nutters; it's something the Old Firm are afraid to do because the scale of the problem is so large.

[Smartie]

Yes, I have to agree. Let's be honest, the bottom line always wins out at all clubs. However, we must give credit to both Hibs and Hearts for their recent tough action against the nutters; it's something the Old Firm are afraid to do because the scale of the problem is so large.

There will be games at Easter Road and Tynecastle between now and the end of the season (and also the visits of both Edinburgh clubs to Glasgow) that will inevitably produce the usual nonsense.

It will be interesting to hear if Hibs and Hearts are keen to continue their hard line on unacceptable conduct.

FWIW I'm very happy with the way both clubs have addressed recent problems and if anything arises then I look forward to their continued tough action and willingness to highlight and tackle unacceptable behaviour.

[Hibernia&Alba]

There will be games at Easter Road and Tynecastle between now and the end of the season (and also the visits of both Edinburgh clubs to Glasgow) that will inevitably produce the usual nonsense.

It will be interesting to hear if Hibs and Hearts are keen to continue their hard line on unacceptable conduct.

FWIW I'm very happy with the way both clubs have addressed recent problems and if anything arises then I look forward to their continued tough action and willingness to highlight and tackle unacceptable behaviour.
:agree:

Yes, it has to be a long term battle and not just a token gesture. Time will tell.

[PeeKay]

And like Celtic right away you point a finger at McInnes, and there by lies the problem, it's always someone else's fault.

Don't understand where you think I said that the abuse aimed at McInnes was someone else's fault. I have no problem with his complaint against Celtic supporters, which was justified, but feel that it would be strengthened by consistency and therein would most certainly lie the moral high ground. Across Scottish football I think the moral high ground must be a pretty lonely place.

[Ozyhibby]

There will be games at Easter Road and Tynecastle between now and the end of the season (and also the visits of both Edinburgh clubs to Glasgow) that will inevitably produce the usual nonsense.

It will be interesting to hear if Hibs and Hearts are keen to continue their hard line on unacceptable conduct.

FWIW I'm very happy with the way both clubs have addressed recent problems and if anything arises then I look forward to their continued tough action and willingness to highlight and tackle unacceptable behaviour.

I’m also happy enough with recent steps the club have taken. It’s the problems the club seems happy to ignore that I’m less happy about. We should be making it clear to all fans of all clubs that visiting Easter road is contingent on good behaviour and absence of any sectarian abuse. Otherwise ticket allocations are cut. Our principles should not be for sale unless of course we have no such principles.



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[Smartie]

I’m also happy enough with recent steps the club have taken. It’s the problems the club seems happy to ignore that I’m less happy about. We should be making it clear to all fans of all clubs that visiting Easter road is contingent on good behaviour and absence of any sectarian abuse. Otherwise ticket allocations are cut. Our principles should not be for sale unless of course we have no such principles.



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I agree with you 100%, and the exact words you have used could be refashioned slightly if Hibs wanted to make a statement on this issue.

They won't, as long as there are a few thousand blue pounds to be had though.

[O'Rourke3]

On the Stevie G issue I seem to recall that DMc backed the action but made the statment that he was happy to help out so long as the investigations and punishments were consistant. Making sure that Aberdeen were not going to be on the hook when Rangers and Celtic get off with it time and again.

[Keith_M]

How can Stevie Gerrard be an Orange B'st'rd if he's a Roman Catholic?

If, as some suggest, it's a sectarian slur against Protestants...then it can't possibly apply to him.

[PatHead]

I agree with you 100%, and the exact words you have used could be refashioned slightly if Hibs wanted to make a statement on this issue.

They won't, as long as there are a few thousand blue pounds to be had though.
I don't think it is as simple as telling them to behave. We have to be seen to get our house in order first. Then we can take the high ground.

[Smartie]

I don't think it is as simple as telling them to behave. We have to be seen to get our house in order first. Then we can take the high ground.

Which we've either done, or have taken big steps towards doing.

We've not cobbled together some half-arsed acknowledgment whilst stressing that everyone else is worse than us.

[Ozyhibby]

I don't think it is as simple as telling them to behave. We have to be seen to get our house in order first. Then we can take the high ground.

On sectarian singing, our house is in order. There is nothing to stop us doing this now.
We have already taken action on other issues and will continue to do so when required.
Easter road should not be somewhere for bigots to glorify violence against people of different faiths. We should have a no tolerance approach to this.


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[PatHead]

Which we've either done, or have taken big steps towards doing.

We've not cobbled together some half-arsed acknowledgment whilst stressing that everyone else is worse than us.
This season we have had a fan arrested for giving a player racial abuse. We were accused of racial abuse at the Hearts game. We still have a long way to go before we can claim to be on our way to sorting it. If we came out on the moral high ground we would be shot down in flames.

[Hibernia&Alba]

On sectarian singing, our house is in order. There is nothing to stop us doing this now.
We have already taken action on other issues and will continue to do so when required.
Easter road should not be somewhere for bigots to glorify violence against people of different faiths. We should have a no tolerance approach to this.


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One hundred per cent, and sectarianism is almost non-existent in our support, happily. All are welcome.

[Aim Here]

How can Stevie Gerrard be an Orange B'st'rd if he's a Roman Catholic?

If, as some suggest, it's a sectarian slur against Protestants...then it can't possibly apply to him.

Firstly, bigoted terms are still bigoted even if they're misapplied. Sikhs being attacked after 9/11 by morons believing they were muslims are still the victim of anti-muslim hate crimes.

Secondly, Slippy's not catholic, though IIRC, he has sent his offspring to catholic school or something of that ilk.

Thirdly, what does 'orange *******' refer to, if it's not some supposed religious affiliation? And further to that, if you're going to claim that the orange in 'orange *******' refers to the Orange Order, or Orange marchers, can you please explain how a term for a Protestant/anticatholic fraternal organization can possibly refer to Steve Gerrard, whom you've just this minute mistaken for a catholic, and who is clearly not affiliated with that particular group?

'Orange *******' is pretty much the green arsecheek variant of 'fenian *******'. Just as Rangers fans say 'It's not sectarian, fenians were a 19th century Irish nationalist organization' before applying it to anyone of a vaguely catholic persuasion that they don't like the look of, Celtic fans use 'orange *******' in a similar manner in the opposite way, and try to justify it with their ridiculous technical definition. There's usually a lot of differences between exactly how the arsecheeks engage in their particular flavours of bigotry, and I normally think that 'they're each the same as the other' is a bit of a lazy cop-out, but these particular instances of Old Firm *****baggery seem almost to be mirror images of each other.

[Ozyhibby]

This season we have had a fan arrested for giving a player racial abuse. We were accused of racial abuse at the Hearts game. We still have a long way to go before we can claim to be on our way to sorting it. If we came out on the moral high ground we would be shot down in flames.

Haven’t we banned the individual from Easter road? We have taken action there so why not when it is mass singing of sectarian songs? Why are we treating sectarianism differently from racism?


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[Smartie]

This season we have had a fan arrested for giving a player racial abuse. We were accused of racial abuse at the Hearts game. We still have a long way to go before we can claim to be on our way to sorting it. If we came out on the moral high ground we would be shot down in flames.

The club's response to the fan caught giving a player racial abuse was swift and unequivocal. We were accused of racial abuse at the Hearts game with no foundation whatsoever other than what someone might want to read into a coconut being chucked onto a football pitch when a goal was scored.

We are not trying to get any sort of moral high ground - we are trying to eradicate racist and sectarian abuse and if you are going to be bold in doing so properly, sometimes you have to open yourselves up to accusations from the whataboutery brigade.

There is nothing of significance that I witness on anything like a regular basis from Hibs fans (whilst acknowledging the existence of pished morons at Tynecastle, the odd line in a song that is never really heard these days) that should stop us calling out who are now the main perpetrators, thousands of them, week after week.

[Keith_M]

Firstly, bigoted terms are still bigoted even if they're misapplied. Sikhs being attacked after 9/11 by morons believing they were muslims are still the victim of anti-muslim hate crimes.

Secondly, Slippy's not catholic, though IIRC, he has sent his offspring to catholic school or something of that ilk.
.

So he's definitely not a Protestant, so any accusations of it being an insult to his beliefs are blatantly nonsense.



Thirdly, what does 'orange *******' refer to, if it's not some supposed religious affiliation? .

I'd reckon it's along the lines of calling somebody a "White Supremacist Bstrd".

Hence the reason that quite a large number of Protestants are happy to chant it at people because they disapprove of their bigotry, much the same as a white person can disapprove of a member of the KKK.


...And further to that, if you're going to claim that the orange in 'orange *******' refers to the Orange Order, or Orange marchers, can you please explain how a term for a Protestant/anticatholic fraternal organization can possibly refer to Steve Gerrard, whom you've just this minute mistaken for a catholic, and who is clearly not affiliated with that particular group? .


Surely that's my point, though, that he actually ISN'T a Protestant, which is a fact well know to the Aberdeen Fans that were IRONICALLY chanting that at him




'Orange *******' is pretty much the green arsecheek variant of 'fenian *******'. Just as Rangers fans say 'It's not sectarian, fenians were a 19th century Irish nationalist organization' .

The word Fenian has been used by bigoted Rangers Fans to refer to Roman Catholics for decades. While missaplied, the intent has always been clear

It's only in the last few years that anyone has claimed Orange is equivelant to Protestant, a "fact" put out there by bigotted Rangers Fans as an act of whittabootery and laughlingly accepted by organisation such as Nil By Mouth.

I hate Orangemen, for what they stand for, but I certainly don't hate all Protestants... e.g. a large section of my family




p.s. I was born into a Church of Scotland family, and was considered "Protestant" during a large part of my childhood.

[ancient hibee]

Surely it's obvious that it doesn't matter what the religion is of the person being abused.What matters is what the abuser thinks it is..

[Hibernia&Alba]

So he's definitely not a Protestant, so any accusations of it being an insult to his beliefs are blatantly nonsense.



I'd reckon it's along the lines of calling somebody a "White Supremacist Bstrd".

Hence the reason that quite a large number of Protestants are happy to chant it at people because they disapprove of their bigotry, much the same as a white person can disapprove of a member of the KKK.




Surely that's my point, though, that he actually ISN'T a Protestant, which is a fact well know to the Aberdeen Fans that were IRONICALLY chanting that at him




The word Fenian has been used by bigoted Rangers Fans to refer to Roman Catholics for decades. While missaplied, the intent has always been clear

It's only in the last few years that anyone has claimed Orange is equivelant to Protestant, a "fact" put out there by bigotted Rangers Fans as an act of whittabootery and laughlingly accepted by organisation such as Nil By Mouth.

I hate Orangemen, for what they stand for, but I certainly don't hate all Protestants... e.g. a large section of my family




p.s. I was born into a Church of Scotland family, and was considered "Protestant" during a large part of my childhood.

I take what you mean in reference to the Orange. A group of fans who sing The Sash but who then cry sectarianism when they are called Orange so and so's is a bit rich. However, we surely all agree that these kind of references have no place in football nor Scotland generally. Not all Rangers supporters sing The Sash nor have any connection to the Orange Order, thus it's a sectarian slur based upon a stereotype. I see no justification for its invocation at football, and this form of tribalism based upon religious ignorance only holds us back.

[Ozyhibby]

I take what you mean in reference to the Orange. A group of fans who sing The Sash but who then cry sectarianism when they are called Orange so and so's is a bit rich. However, we surely all agree that these kind of references have no place in football nor Scotland generally. Not all Rangers supporters sing The Sash nor have any connection to the Orange Order, thus it's a sectarian slur based upon a stereotype. I see no justification for its invocation at football, and this form of tribalism based upon religious ignorance only holds us back.

Totally agree.


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[superfurryhibby]

So he's definitely not a Protestant, so any accusations of it being an insult to his beliefs are blatantly nonsense.



I'd reckon it's along the lines of calling somebody a "White Supremacist Bstrd".

Hence the reason that quite a large number of Protestants are happy to chant it at people because they disapprove of their bigotry, much the same as a white person can disapprove of a member of the KKK.




Surely that's my point, though, that he actually ISN'T a Protestant, which is a fact well know to the Aberdeen Fans that were IRONICALLY chanting that at him




The word Fenian has been used by bigoted Rangers Fans to refer to Roman Catholics for decades. While missaplied, the intent has always been clear

It's only in the last few years that anyone has claimed Orange is equivelant to Protestant, a "fact" put out there by bigotted Rangers Fans as an act of whittabootery and laughlingly accepted by organisation such as Nil By Mouth.

I hate Orangemen, for what they stand for, but I certainly don't hate all Protestants... e.g. a large section of my family

Some very good points here.

I tried on several occasions to engage with Nil by Mouth, emailing them to highlight some basic flaws in their summary of sectarianism and sport in Scotland (they were making analogies with the Glasgow derby and saying that there was a smaller, but still significant sectarian elements which brought religious hatred to the Edinburgh derby).

I gave my view there is only one team in Edinburgh who’s support routinely indulge in sectarianism ( the one with their very own flute band, the red hand flags etc, etc...) and I stick by what I said earlier in this thread that a handful of tricolours and flags with harps ( which have a particular link to the club’s past) does not equal a serious sectarian issue amongst the Hibs support.

What I tried to explain was that Hibs’ name should not be tarnished with the same brush. It’s not true and by pandering to that myth you actually add legitimacy to the bigots.

My view of sectarianism in Edinburgh football tells me that Hibs fans largely left these songs behind in the 1980’s. Much of the singing of pro IRA songs etc wasn’t a reflection of a widespread endorsement of terrorism anyway, but as much a way of winding up the Huns.

We left it behind. Unfortunately a fairly visible element of our neighbours haven’t quite managed that. Many Hearts fans despise the bigots in their support too. Let’s not make the mistake of equating random tricolours at ER with a sectarian problem amongst our fanbase. It’s not true.

[CMurdoch]

“Smeltic”. Are you a child?

Sorry about that meant Victims FC