Notre Dame Cathedral

[Pretty Boy]

Huge fire broke out and the main spire has collapsed.

Really, really sad site as it's a beautiful building.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47941794

[Jack Hackett]

Huge fire broke out and the main spire has collapsed.

Really, really sad site as it's a beautiful building.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47941794

Really sad... Genuinely iconic building. They'll fix it though. There's a lot of experience around making these disasters look good as new. We just won't be seeing it for a few years

[Peevemor]

It's live on a couple of channels here. There's nothing left of the roof.

It looks like it'll be totally gutted.

Macron was due to give an important statement on TV tonight (announcing what's to be changed after the yellow vest protests) but this has now been postponed.

[Mibbes Aye]

Sad to hear as it is a genuinely iconic place. As has been said, it will be recreated. To be honest, I always preferred Sacre Couer at Montmartre, but hopefully the emergency services can do their best and limit the damage.

[matty_f]

Awful news but there must be a joke in there somewhere.

[Pretty Boy]

Sad to hear as it is a genuinely iconic place. As has been said, it will be recreated. To be honest, I always preferred Sacre Couer at Montmartre, but hopefully the emergency services can do their best and limit the damage.

Sacre Couer is a beautiful church as well. I visited on a school trip years ago after we had spent a few days visiting the WWI battlefields. The artwork above the main altar is spectacular.

[Peevemor]

Sad to hear as it is a genuinely iconic place. As has been said, it will be recreated. To be honest, I always preferred Sacre Couer at Montmartre, but hopefully the emergency services can do their best and limit the damage.

The timber roof structure, which is now gone, dated from the 13th century. Even if the eventual replacement is 100% true to the original, there won't be same sense of history.

I'd be surprised if the stone structure isn't goosed too.

[Hibbyradge]

I proposed to Mrs R in Paris and I've been several times.

This is a tragedy, not for the same reasons as the Twin Towers, but on a similar scale.

It's incredible and very, very sad.

[Mibbes Aye]

Sacre Couer is a beautiful church as well. I visited on a school trip years ago after we had spent a few days visiting the WWI battlefields. The artwork above the main altar is spectacular.

:agree:

There's a beauty to Sacre Couer that isn't the same as Notre Dame, as stunning as it is (was).

[Peevemor]

The first time I spent any time in Paris (apart from changing trains/planes), there were three of us flown across from Edinburgh to play at a Scottish night thing in the Southern suburbs of Paris. That was the Saturday night and we had the Sunday free so the organisers drove us to the middle of Paris and left us to do what we wanted.

We were dropped off right outside Notre Dame and instead of heading straight for a drink (which would ordinarily have been top of the list of things to do - anywhere), we spent a fair bit of time exploring the cathedral, inside and out.

Since then Notre Dame is the first image that comes to my mind when somebody talks about Paris.

[Mibbes Aye]

The timber roof structure, which is now gone, dated from the 13th century. Even if the eventual replacement is 100% true to the original, there won't be same sense of history.

I'd be surprised if the stone structure isn't goosed too.

You will know a lot better than me, given your line of work. It is saddening to lose such history, especially if as it seems, it is some sort of accident arising from the renovation work.

[JeMeSouviens]

Twitter thread from a firefighter:

https://twitter.com/greggfavre/status/1117847726786371585?s=21

[Peevemor]

You will know a lot better than me, given your line of work. It is saddening to lose such history, especially if as it seems, it is some sort of accident arising from the renovation work.

Apart from the craftsmanship and design/innovation, it's the combination of scale and age of these places that impresses me most. It's almost beyond belief that people were capable of doing that stuff 800 years ago. A modern, even perfect, replica won't have the same effect (for me in any case).

I'd imagine there'll be a few tradesmen posing themselves questions tonight while keeching their (French) knickers.

[Peevemor]

Twitter thread from a firefighter:

https://twitter.com/greggfavre/status/1117847726786371585?s=21

That's excellent. He's been far more informative than any of the French news channels to date.

[Bristolhibby]

So so sad.

J

[heretoday]

I wonder if they will rebuid it . It would be like the old style French to peut-etre not.

But I suppose the contemporary regime will want to rebuild.

[Mibbes Aye]

Apart from the craftsmanship and design/innovation, it's the combination of scale and age of these places that impresses me most. It's almost beyond belief that people were capable of doing that stuff 800 years ago. A modern, even perfect, replica won't have the same effect (for me in any case).

I'd imagine there'll be a few tradesmen posing themselves questions tonight while keeching their (French) knickers.

I've been reading a book about architecture recently, that focuses a lot on the churches and cathedrals along the Routes of Santiago de Compostela. I'm dwelling on whether to do the route.

My favourite is Saint-Sernin in Toulouse. Apart from it being very finely Romanesque, which I love, it is incredible to think it was built nearly a thousand years ago. The vaulted ceilings are gorgeous, but as you say, the sheer work that was required to do what they did is almost beyond comprehension

[Peevemor]

I wonder if they will rebuid it . It would be like the old style French to peut-etre not.

But I suppose the contemporary regime will want to rebuild.

The vast majority of church buildings (and I suspect all RC churches) are owned by the state and not the church(es).

No politician seriously looking to be elected/re-elected President will back anything other than a total rebuild.

Even my staunchest, atheist Breton pals (who see France as their nearest neighbour) are gutted by this. My elder daughter (14) is pretty distraught. She's a real history buff and visited Paris, including Notre Dame, with her school less than a month ago.

[Peanut Shaz]

I was in Paris just 2 weeks ago and spent time there. Absolutely devastating news.

[Peevemor]

I've been reading a book about architecture recently, that focuses a lot on the churches and cathedrals along the Routes of Santiago de Compostela. I'm dwelling on whether to do the route.

My favourite is Saint-Sernin in Toulouse. Apart from it being very finely Romanesque, which I love, it is incredible to think it was built nearly a thousand years ago. The vaulted ceilings are gorgeous, is but as you say, the sheer work that was required to do what they did is almost beyond comprehension

It's not on the route (but it's only an hours drive from Chateau Peeve), but the Abbey on Mont St-Michel is amazing. In the lower sections which date from the 10th century, you can see some of the stone vaults are a bit wonky. They're not quite symmetric and things don't join/meet as they should.

They were learning and experimenting and you can see the build quality improving as they progressed.

I love that stuff.

[Jack Hackett]

That's excellent. He's been far more informative than any of the French news channels to date.

Absolutely. Highlights the scale and impact of the disaster. Makes my 'they can rebuild' comment earlier sound a bit glib and clueless... which it was in hindsight

[Peevemor]

They've just shown an aerial photo on the tv. It's brutal - a large central part of the vault has collapsed (possibly when the central spire fell).

It's from a drone transmitting to the firemen.

21917

[Mibbes Aye]

It's not on the route (but it's only an hours drive from Chateau Peeve), but the Abbey on Mont St-Michel is amazing. In the lower sections which date from the 10th century, you can see some of the stone vaults are a bit wonky. They're not quite symmetric and things don't join/meet as they should.

They were learning and experimenting and you can see the build quality improving as they progressed.

I love that stuff.

Mont-St-Michel looks outstanding. I would love to visit it and have a hankering to a road trip that maybe starts in Normandy and either works its way down to the Languedoc or alternatively into the Basque country and San Sebastian and Bilbao.

There is a real beauty to the churches that were built in the 10-12th centuries, which were very much at the sheer limits of knowledge and understanding. That so many of them worked and lasted is incredible testament to the skills and expertise of the architects and builders. It's not my area of expertise but I can recognise that to build something like that today would involve precise and specialist machinery, no doubt based on expensive computer software. But craftsmen and builders did this a thousand years ago manually.

[Jim44]

A tragic loss, very much on the same level as the Glasgow School of Art devastation, albeit an older and possibly more internationally known icon. In some respects the CRM building, as a relatively modern building, is restorable but how do you restore a building from an entirely different era?

[Callyballybe]

Trump suggested 'Flying Water Tankers' would be able to put it out quickest.

You literially couldn't spoof that man.

[Peevemor]

Trump suggested 'Flying Water Tankers' would be able to put it out quickest.

You literially couldn't spoof that man.

Yeah Donald, send low flying aircraft into a city certain to dump hundreds of tons of water into an already weakened structure...

[Saturday Boy]

Apart from the religious significance of the cathedral, Notre-Dame is central to the French national spirit. The bells of Notre-Dame rang out to announce the Liberation.

I’m sure it will be rebuilt. Anyone of my age will have seen pictures Amiens, Ypres and many more towns rebuilt after the Great War.

Luckily, it’s not over here, or we could see another St James Centre built on the site.

[Just Jimmy]

absolutely devastating. I've never been but I'm gutted that when I finally do, it'll be a regenerated version. an awful awful loss.

a sad sad day. my thoughts are with my fellow Emergency service workers who will be battling throughout the night, as well as with the French people.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[NAE NOOKIE]

I don't think you need to ever have been there to appreciate what a cultural tragedy this is, one of the worlds most iconic buildings like the Taj Mahal or dare I say Edinburgh castle.

I have no doubt the French will rebuild it stone by stone, but what artworks have been lost that can be replicated but never replaced? …. Tragic.

[BroxburnHibee]

I don't think you need to ever have been there to appreciate what a cultural tragedy this is, one of the worlds most iconic buildings like the Taj Mahal or dare I say Edinburgh castle.

I have no doubt the French will rebuild it stone by stone, but what artworks have been lost that can be replicated but never replaced? …. Tragic.

Apparently a lot of the artifacts have been put into storage because of the renovation work that was going on. I'm sure some must have been lost though.

I've been lucky enough to visit it twice. I'm sure it will be restored in a proper manner.

[hibsbollah]

Apparently a lot of the artifacts have been put into storage because of the renovation work that was going on. I'm sure some must have been lost though.

I've been lucky enough to visit it twice. I'm sure it will be restored in a proper manner.

Did you do the very narrow climb up the spiral staircase to the roof? I went up there 25 years ago, I'm not sure how since I'm not great with heights, but I recall how tiny human figures looked from up there and how quiet and peaceful it was. It seems odd that the roof has now gone.

[BroxburnHibee]

Did you do the very narrow climb up the spiral staircase to the roof? I went up there 25 years ago, I'm not sure how since I'm not great with heights, but I recall how tiny human figures looked from up there and how quiet and peaceful it was. It seems odd that the roof has now gone.

First time I went it was a school trip and yes I did. Last time was with my wife but we got to the open walkway between the 2 towers and she had a major panic attack so went no further.

[hibsbollah]

First time I went it was a school trip and yes I did. Last time was with my wife but we got to the open walkway between the 2 towers and she had a major panic attack so went no further.

I only managed it by crawling on my hands and knees along next to the transept. So high up. It's a poignant memory now.

[Fuzzywuzzy]

2 french billionaires have donated €300 million between them.

[The Modfather]

2 french billionaires have donated €300 million between them.

Fair play to them donating their own money. Although part of me does wonder, and I accept the cultural significance of the cathedral, if that kind of money could be better used than restoring a cathedral. Although I am getting old and cantankerous, so probably just being grumpy today.

[Fife-Hibee]

2 french billionaires have donated €300 million between them.

While people go hungry on the streets.

[.Sean.]

Very sad. How did they even cut the timbers and beams 800 years ago never mind get them into the air and fitted to eachother? Mental

[One Day Soon]

While people go hungry on the streets.

What point are you trying to make?

[G B Young]

Anyone who knows and loves Paris, as quite a few on here clearly do, will fully understand why this is a tragedy on a cultural level. It's a building that means a great deal to people all over the world for all sorts of reasons, be they religious or emotional. It was upsetting to watch last night and I'm very glad that it looks like the external structure, at least, has been saved. Few would quibble with its restoration and fair play to those able to donate millions to the cause.

[JeMeSouviens]

Anyone who knows and loves Paris, as quite a few on here clearly do, will fully understand why this is a tragedy on a cultural level. It's a building that means a great deal to people all over the world for all sorts of reasons, be they religious or emotional. It was upsetting to watch last night and I'm very glad that it looks like the external structure, at least, has been saved. Few would quibble with its restoration and fair play to those able to donate millions to the cause.

Big relief that there was no loss of life as well.

[Peevemor]

Amazing photo https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190416/9dba889618a70daf9df3af662f7f722e.jpg

[Pretty Boy]

What point are you trying to make?

A 'look at me I' m so controversial and smart' one. Par for the course.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Watching the Victoria Derbyshire show this morning and they were inviting people to tweet and text their opinion as to whether folk in the UK should or would want to contribute to the reconstruction. Amongst the folk banging the feed the poor drum there was even one who said 'screw that, let Macron get his pal Angela Merkel to help pay for it.

If there was ever a comment which encapsulated what a bitter xenophobic small minded place parts of the UK have become in the last couple of years that was it.

[Allant1981]

I was last there 3 years ago and the wife and I are planning on going for our wedding anniversary this year. Lovely building and no matter how well they restore it i doubt it will ever look the same

[Allant1981]

While people go hungry on the streets.

So no one should donate money to any kind of cause because there are people on the streets hungry? What a ridiculous statement I'm guessing the only charity or cause you donate to is to help feed the hungry

[Pretty Boy]

The idea that we shouldn't spend money on preserving and restoring places of huge cultural and historical significance comes from the same kind of fuzzy thinking that argues states should sell off art and historical collections to the highest bidder. What a sad world it would be if we let such things disappear from public view and into private collections for a sum of money that would do little to address the reasons that people are going hungry anyway.

[matty_f]

The idea that we shouldn't spend money on preserving and restoring places of huge cultural and historical significance comes from the same kind of fuzzy thinking that argues states should sell off art and historical collections to the highest bidder. What a sad world it would be if we let such things disappear from public view and into private collections for a sum of money that would do little to address the reasons that people are going hungry anyway.
:agree:

[lapsedhibee]

Amazing photo https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190416/9dba889618a70daf9df3af662f7f722e.jpg

Turneresque.

[matty_f]

The idea that we shouldn't spend money on preserving and restoring places of huge cultural and historical significance comes from the same kind of fuzzy thinking that argues states should sell off art and historical collections to the highest bidder. What a sad world it would be if we let such things disappear from public view and into private collections for a sum of money that would do little to address the reasons that people are going hungry anyway.

Would it not be insured? Not really relevant to your point but folk shouldn't need to be chucking money at it.

[Bristolhibby]

Saw an interesting one today.

“Imagine if Grenfell had some really important stained glass windows and examples of Gothic architecture instead of just human beings”.

J

[hibsbollah]

Katie Hopkins tweeting furiously that was a bloke in Islamic robes in the cathedral while the firefighters were working. Apparently it's all linked to a spate of church attacks across France. Not doing Brexit is apparently slightly to blame too.

I can't believe I've never followed her before. You need to know what madness you're dealing with these days.

[One Day Soon]

Katie Hopkins tweeting furiously that was a bloke in Islamic robes in the cathedral while the firefighters were working. Apparently it's all linked to a spate of church attacks across France. Not doing Brexit is apparently slightly to blame too.

I can't believe I've never followed her before. You need to know what madness you're dealing with these days.


It's a tough call. The argument for knowing your deranged enemy balanced against not wanting to be exposed to anything out of the feces spouting mouth of such a vilely diseased horror show of a human being.

I'd like to dismiss her as a thick, poisonous troll but unfortunately she's just clever enough that it isn't mindless, it's deliberate and calculating and evil.

[Pretty Boy]

Katie Hopkins tweeting furiously that was a bloke in Islamic robes in the cathedral while the firefighters were working. Apparently it's all linked to a spate of church attacks across France. Not doing Brexit is apparently slightly to blame too.

I can't believe I've never followed her before. You need to know what madness you're dealing with these days.

I've watched the video she tweeted and it's obviously someone wearing a hi viz jacket. How she, or anyone else, can see a 'robe' is beyond me.

Of course I don't believe she does see anything of the sort. It's calculated to plant a seed of an idea in the minds of those looking for an angle and to create a mood of doubt amongst others.

[barcahibs]

Whilst I totally get that this is a big story, and I totally understand that there are French cultural resonances here that I'm just not picking up on, I struggle to see it as the tragedy that some are making it out to be. No one was killed, the portable works of art appear to have been saved.

Historic buildings change and evolve - that's what history is - nothing is fixed in time forever. The cathedral didn't just arrive 850 years ago fully formed, it grew into the building it is now through a series of historic events (including a very bodged reconstruction not that long ago). Some of the older stained glass was destroyed in WW2 and replaced afterward, the spire that collapsed in this fire was only added in the 19th century. In another 850 years this will just be another story that tour guides tell to explain why one line of stonework is a slightly different colour from the rest.

It's sad to see it happen, but it's just another part of the building's life.

A bit like the Glasgow School of Art fire though I wouldn't like to think of public money being spent on its reconstruction when there are clearly many, many wealthy individuals and organisations who should be paying out first - in this case not least the Vatican. When the Vatican bank is empty and the Pope is putting some of his old hats on Ebay to raise funds then we can talk about public subsidy. But that's for the people of France to decide.


Yeah Donald, send low flying aircraft into a city certain to dump hundreds of tons of water into an already weakened structure...

I thought that was actually a really interesting quote that gives a good insight into how Trump's mind works. Trump clearly isn't actually stupid, I'm sure he knows that dumping water on the structure like that would collapse it. I think he just doesn't see why that would be a problem. I doubt he sees any value in a pile of old bricks that there's no way for him to make money out of. A collapsed building however means construction deals, real estate deals. Maybe even space for a future Notre Trump tower.

Using planes to dump water just helps clear the site faster in his mind.

[hibsbollah]

I've watched the video she tweeted and it's obviously someone wearing a hi viz jacket. How she, or anyone else, can see a 'robe' is beyond me.

Of course I don't believe she does see anything of the sort. It's calculated to plant a seed of an idea in the minds of those looking for an angle and to create a mood of doubt amongst others.

More on this
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/16/social-media-platforms-failed-to-counter-notre-dame-fire-conspiracies-say-critics

[Scouse Hibee]

Whilst I totally get that this is a big story, and I totally understand that there are French cultural resonances here that I'm just not picking up on, I struggle to see it as the tragedy that some are making it out to be. No one was killed, the portable works of art appear to have been saved.

Historic buildings change and evolve - that's what history is - nothing is fixed in time forever. The cathedral didn't just arrive 850 years ago fully formed, it grew into the building it is now through a series of historic events (including a very bodged reconstruction not that long ago). Some of the older stained glass was destroyed in WW2 and replaced afterward, the spire that collapsed in this fire was only added in the 19th century. In another 850 years this will just be another story that tour guides tell to explain why one line of stonework is a slightly different colour from the rest.

It's sad to see it happen, but it's just another part of the building's life.

A bit like the Glasgow School of Art fire though I wouldn't like to think of public money being spent on its reconstruction when there are clearly many, many wealthy individuals and organisations who should be paying out first - in this case not least the Vatican. When the Vatican bank is empty and the Pope is putting some of his old hats on Ebay to raise funds then we can talk about public subsidy. But that's for the people of France to decide.



I thought that was actually a really interesting quote that gives a good insight into how Trump's mind works. Trump clearly isn't actually stupid, I'm sure he knows that dumping water on the structure like that would collapse it. I think he just doesn't see why that would be a problem. I doubt he sees any value in a pile of old bricks that there's no way for him to make money out of. A collapsed building however means construction deals, real estate deals. Maybe even space for a future Notre Trump tower.

Using planes to dump water just helps clear the site faster in his mind.

I agree, Grenfell was a real tragedy this doesn’t come close.

[Sprouleflyer]

What I find interesting is around 700million euros has already been pledge to rebuild it, all within 24 hours.

what could that amount of money do for the homeless in France?

What a funny species we are, rally to a cause to rebuild a building and turn a blind eye to human suffering.

Weird!

[Peevemor]

Whilst I totally get that this is a big story, and I totally understand that there are French cultural resonances here that I'm just not picking up on, I struggle to see it as the tragedy that some are making it out to be. No one was killed, the portable works of art appear to have been saved.

Historic buildings change and evolve - that's what history is - nothing is fixed in time forever. The cathedral didn't just arrive 850 years ago fully formed, it grew into the building it is now through a series of historic events (including a very bodged reconstruction not that long ago). Some of the older stained glass was destroyed in WW2 and replaced afterward, the spire that collapsed in this fire was only added in the 19th century. In another 850 years this will just be another story that tour guides tell to explain why one line of stonework is a slightly different colour from the rest.

It's sad to see it happen, but it's just another part of the building's life.

A bit like the Glasgow School of Art fire though I wouldn't like to think of public money being spent on its reconstruction when there are clearly many, many wealthy individuals and organisations who should be paying out first - in this case not least the Vatican. When the Vatican bank is empty and the Pope is putting some of his old hats on Ebay to raise funds then we can talk about public subsidy. But that's for the people of France to decide.



I thought that was actually a really interesting quote that gives a good insight into how Trump's mind works. Trump clearly isn't actually stupid, I'm sure he knows that dumping water on the structure like that would collapse it. I think he just doesn't see why that would be a problem. I doubt he sees any value in a pile of old bricks that there's no way for him to make money out of. A collapsed building however means construction deals, real estate deals. Maybe even space for a future Notre Trump tower.

Using planes to dump water just helps clear the site faster in his mind.As I posted before, the majority of church buildings are under public ownership. For example the town where I live, which has a population of 3,000, just recently borrowed money to fund almost 400k€ of repairs to the local church.

The state will be footing a fair whack of the repair bill, either directly or in the form of tax deductions (up to 90% right-off) for individuals or businesses who make donations.

In the case of Notre Dame, more than 700m€ has already been pledged from all sectors; public, private and individuals.

[matty_f]

As I posted before, the majority of church buildings are under public ownership. For example the town where I live, which has a population of 3,000, just recently borrowed money to fund almost 400k€ of repairs to the local church.

The state will be footing a fair whack of the repair bill, either directly or in the form of tax deductions (up to 90% right-off) for individuals or businesses who make donations.

In the case of Notre Dame, more than 700m€ has already been pledged from all sectors; public, private and individuals.

Mentioned it above, but surely it's insured?

I agree with Barca's post above as well, it's clearly a traffic thing to happen and it's a site of real significance but it's not even in the top ten of bad things that will happen this year, imho.

[Peevemor]

Mentioned it above, but surely it's insured?

I agree with Barca's post above as well, it's clearly a traffic thing to happen and it's a site of real significance but it's not even in the top ten of bad things that will happen this year, imho.

Apparently it's not insured (the government isn't obliged to insure it's property) and even if it was, the chances are that no company would have provided enough cover.

If they can prove that one of the contractors was negligent and caused the fire, they may go after his insurers, but liability will probably be capped at around 10m€ (which wouldn't even get you half of a Tynie mega-stand).

[Lendo]

Apparently it's not insured (the government isn't obliged to insure it's property) and even if it was, the chances are that no company would have provided enough cover.

If they can prove that one of the contractors was negligent and caused the fire, they may go after his insurers, but liability will probably be capped at around 10m€ (which wouldn't even get you half of a Tynie mega-stand).

Was the building owned by the French Government and not the Catholic Church? I had naturally assumed it was owned by the Vatican.

[Colr]

While people go hungry on the streets.

The two issues are not mutually exclusive.

[heretoday]

What I find interesting is around 700million euros has already been pledge to rebuild it, all within 24 hours.

what could that amount of money do for the homeless in France?

What a funny species we are, rally to a cause to rebuild a building and turn a blind eye to human suffering.

Weird!

You're absolutely right. The Catholic Church could pay for it a hundred times over as well. God knows what happens to all their cash but it ain't going to the poor.

[RyeSloan]

You're absolutely right. The Catholic Church could pay for it a hundred times over as well. God knows what happens to all their cash but it ain't going to the poor.

While the riches of the Vatican state are of course at odds with many of the religious ethos it preaches and it’s financial management gives plenty of reasons for doubt I still think your analysis is a touch lazy.

https://catholicherald.co.uk/issues/february-17th-2017/a-worldwide-force-for-good/

And yes I know it’s the CHerald but the point still stands ;-)

[G B Young]

What I find interesting is around 700million euros has already been pledge to rebuild it, all within 24 hours.

what could that amount of money do for the homeless in France?

What a funny species we are, rally to a cause to rebuild a building and turn a blind eye to human suffering.

Weird!

Not weird. It's perfectly OK to want to see one of the world's most iconic, historic buildings saved while at the same time having a social conscience.

Notre Dame is a globally recognised symbol of France in the way that Edinburgh Castle is to Scotland. Were the castle to be severely damaged and rendered unfit to visit I don't think you'd find too many citizens of Edinburgh calling for it to be abandoned as an unsafe ruin and for any repair funds to be donated to Shelter instead.

As somebody else has pointed out, the issues are entirely separate.

[Pretty Boy]

The Church is in a no win position really.

If they don't put up the money it's 'they can afford it so why should x, y or z pay for it'. If they do it's 'imagine spending all that on relics and paintings when it could feed the poor'.

[barcahibs]

The Church is in a no win position really.

If they don't put up the money it's 'they can afford it so why should x, y or z pay for it'. If they do it's 'imagine spending all that on relics and paintings when it could feed the poor'.

Agreed - but it's a no win a position of their own making. They set themselves up as the moral authority on issues like human suffering and poverty whilst also spending incredible amounts of resources on a privileged hierarchy and vast monuments of stone and gold.

They've managed to have it both ways for an awful long time.

Not that I want to turn this into an anti religious thing, I wholeheartedly agree with the view that it is awful that such an amazing achievement of human ingenuity, labour, and creativity has been damaged. But that same ingenuity and dedication will allow it to continue its story into the future.

[Peevemor]

Interactive 3D image showing the damage.

https://gigarama.ru/notredame/

[JeMeSouviens]

Interactive 3D image showing the damage.

https://gigarama.ru/notredame/

Drones rock. It's actually fairly intact looking in terms of the stonework at least.

[heretoday]

I don't understand why it's going to cost billions to repair. There's loads of roofers and builders in the yellow pages (or whatever they're called in Paris) and I bet they could do it for half the price.

Probably make a start next week too.

[Peevemor]

Drones rock. It's actually fairly intact looking in terms of the stonework at least.

There are three holes on the vaulted (stone) roof, which was also heated to 800°c - the chances are that it will have to be redone. There's also a doubt over the stability of the gable that's nearest you when you open the link.

[wpj]

I don't understand why it's going to cost billions to repair. There's loads of roofers and builders in the yellow pages (or whatever they're called in Paris) and I bet they could do it for half the price.

Probably make a start next week too.

Got enough people with hi-vis jackets seemingly at a loss for things to do at the weekends too

[barcahibs]

I note today that some estate down south has offered up its ancient oak trees to help rebuild Notre Dame.

Ancient oak trees are a vanishing resource, it probably took c.1000 to build the cathedral roof - there are estimated to be only 2000 left in the whole of continental Europe, and maybe another 3000 in the UK.

An ancient oak is not the same as a newly planted oak (or even a 2-300 year old oak) either as a building material or as a wildlife habitat. Some species of plant and animal are totally dependant on ancient oaks, they just can't live on a tree less than several hundred years old.

Ripping up a load of ancient oaks to rebuild would be piling tragedy upon tragedy for me, these old trees are nature's equivalent of a cathedral and they can't just be rebuilt they are almost literally irreplaceable.

[stoneyburn hibs]

I note today that some estate down south has offered up its ancient oak trees to help rebuild Notre Dame.

Ancient oak trees are a vanishing resource, it probably took c.1000 to build the cathedral roof - there are estimated to be only 2000 left in the whole of continental Europe, and maybe another 3000 in the UK.

An ancient oak is not the same as a newly planted oak (or even a 2-300 year old oak) either as a building material or as a wildlife habitat. Some species of plant and animal are totally dependant on ancient oaks, they just can't live on a tree less than several hundred years old.

Ripping up a load of ancient oaks to rebuild would be piling tragedy upon tragedy for me, these old trees are nature's equivalent of a cathedral and they can't just be rebuilt they are almost literally irreplaceable.

A Duke offered it, heartfelt of course.

[The Pointer]

I remember being in Estonia a few years ago for a Scotland game and we went to Parnu (?) where a church spire was being restored. I was admiring the beautiful copper workmanship and remarked to a local. His response was that, while it was nice, the craftsmen were Polish and it would have been nicer to have it done in the Estonian style but they didn't have enough local guys with the skills to do it.