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Diclonius
26-03-2019, 03:43 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47646210

Only 3 of 42 SPFL clubs are for strict liability. Us and Abedeen responded neither for or against. Celtic, Rangers and Hearts didn't bother responding.

Sir David Gray
26-03-2019, 03:56 PM
What's the difference between "no comment" and "did not respond"?

Peevemor
26-03-2019, 03:58 PM
What's the difference between "no comment" and "did not respond"?

Some answered that they wouldn't comment. Others simply didn't answer at all.

Smartie
26-03-2019, 04:01 PM
Some decent comments from Willie Miller and Gerry Britton in there.

Sir David Gray
26-03-2019, 04:20 PM
Some answered that they wouldn't comment. Others simply didn't answer at all.

I knew that would be the answer but I don't see why there's a distinction being made between the two.

If someone asks you a question and you fail to give them an answer then that is you giving them "no comment".

The 90+2
26-03-2019, 04:26 PM
Why should we get done for anything anyone else does in our stadium? That’s why it’s being rejected.

The 90+2
26-03-2019, 04:26 PM
Some decent comments from Willie Miller and Gerry Britton in there.

Willie Miller is an ********.

JohnM1875
26-03-2019, 04:28 PM
Why should we get done for anything anyone else does in our stadium? That’s why it’s being rejected.

If its our fans who are causing the trouble then why shouldn't we?

There needs to be a deterrent or things will never change.

JimBHibees
26-03-2019, 04:33 PM
Why should we get done for anything anyone else does in our stadium? That’s why it’s being rejected.

It is the actions of the clubs supporters. Rangers fans misbehave at ER it is them that get done. think it is the only way of resolving and also encouraging fans to self police. this is IMO in the main to let OF fans get away with things and should be brought in for that exact reason. As usual total lack of backbone and leadership in this country and to me it is the clubs and the football authorities who need to step up now.

Sir David Gray
26-03-2019, 04:35 PM
If its our fans who are causing the trouble then why shouldn't we?

There needs to be a deterrent or things will never change.

If it was a deterrent then why are there still fans misbehaving at UEFA tournaments where strict liability applies?

The fact is, football clubs attract idiots who will do stupid things and that will be the case whether there's a threat of their club being punished or not. The only difference is, if there's strict liability in place then you punish the offender along with the club and all other innocent fans. Without strict liability only the offender gets punished.

I don't see how punishing a football club or banning innocent people from attending future games is going to help prevent further incidents from happening.

CockneyRebel
26-03-2019, 04:37 PM
If its our fans who are causing the trouble then why shouldn't we?

There needs to be a deterrent or things will never change.


Exactly. The OF won't join in, they'd be bankrupt in one season.

Future17
26-03-2019, 04:39 PM
What's the difference between "no comment" and "did not respond"?

Common courtesy.

JimBHibees
26-03-2019, 04:40 PM
If it was a deterrent then why are there still fans misbehaving at UEFA tournaments where strict liability applies?

The fact is, football clubs attract idiots who will do stupid things and that will be the case whether there's a threat of their club being punished or not. The only difference is, if there's strict liability in place then you punish the offender along with the club and all other innocent fans. Without strict liability only the offender gets punished.

I don't see how punishing a football club or banning innocent people from attending future games is going to help prevent further incidents from happening.

Because the sanctions are pretty light first up. Rangers song book stopped overnight when UEFA started fining them about their songs, the club started doing something about it and it pretty much stopped. That is what should happen here.

pacoluna
26-03-2019, 05:24 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47646210

Only 3 of 42 SPFL clubs are for strict liability. Us and Abedeen responded neither for or against. Celtic, Rangers and Hearts didn't bother responding.

Hibs playing the labour card.

Lago
26-03-2019, 05:57 PM
Scottish football will never change, that's one certainty.

ancient hibee
26-03-2019, 05:59 PM
It is the actions of the clubs supporters. Rangers fans misbehave at ER it is them that get done. think it is the only way of resolving and also encouraging fans to self police. this is IMO in the main to let OF fans get away with things and should be brought in for that exact reason. As usual total lack of backbone and leadership in this country and to me it is the clubs and the football authorities who need to step up now.

That’s not what Miller’s suggesting at all.He says that the host club should be held responsible for the behaviour of everyone in the ground.

JimBHibees
26-03-2019, 06:41 PM
That’s not what Miller’s suggesting at all.He says that the host club should be held responsible for the behaviour of everyone in the ground.

If he is saying that it is absolutely ridiculous.

Sir David Gray
26-03-2019, 06:45 PM
That’s not what Miller’s suggesting at all.He says that the host club should be held responsible for the behaviour of everyone in the ground.

Ridiculous idea. The Rangers and Celtic fans would love that, just shut up and enjoy the game at home matches and sing and shout whatever you like at away matches so the home club gets hammered for it.

Never heard anything quite so stupid and if that's the level of intellect that BBC Scotland are getting their views from then there's no hope.

Sir David Gray
26-03-2019, 06:49 PM
If he is saying that it is absolutely ridiculous.

It is.

Former Aberdeen director of football Willie Miller

It's shame on the clubs if they don't accept strict liability. If you are licensed to host an event, you should be responsible for what happens at your ground. Whatever sanctions the authorities want to place upon any incident, they should be able to do that. It's a case of taking responsibility and not burying your head in the sand.

It doesn't matter if it's a small minority, it doesn't matter if it's the away fans, it's your responsibility, hosting that event, to make sure there are not the scenes we've had lately in terms of players' safety, racial abuse or sectarian abuse. It's down to that club to make sure that doesn't happen. That would be a big step forward in alienating these idiots from our game.

Diclonius
26-03-2019, 06:53 PM
I can see it now:

"HIBERNIAN have been hit with partial stadium closure for failing to control sectarian chanting from fans in the South Stand in last week's fixture against Rangers at Easter Road.

This unprecedented move by the SFA will force Hibs not to sell any tickets in the home stands for the upcoming game against Celtic. However, the away end will remain open for Celtic fans."

JimBHibees
26-03-2019, 06:54 PM
It is.

Former Aberdeen director of football Willie Miller

It's shame on the clubs if they don't accept strict liability. If you are licensed to host an event, you should be responsible for what happens at your ground. Whatever sanctions the authorities want to place upon any incident, they should be able to do that. It's a case of taking responsibility and not burying your head in the sand.

It doesn't matter if it's a small minority, it doesn't matter if it's the away fans, it's your responsibility, hosting that event, to make sure there are not the scenes we've had lately in terms of players' safety, racial abuse or sectarian abuse. It's down to that club to make sure that doesn't happen. That would be a big step forward in alienating these idiots from our game.

How moronic that is.

superfurryhibby
26-03-2019, 06:55 PM
That’s not what Miller’s suggesting at all.He says that the host club should be held responsible for the behaviour of everyone in the ground.

“Former Aberdeen director of football Willie Miller

It's shame on the clubs if they don't accept strict liability. If you are licensed to host an event, you should be responsible for what happens at your ground. Whatever sanctions the authorities want to place upon any incident, they should be able to do that. It's a case of taking responsibility and not burying your head in the sand.

It doesn't matter if it's a small minority, it doesn't matter if it's the away fans, it's your responsibility, hosting that event, to make sure there are not the scenes we've had lately in terms of players' safety, racial abuse or sectarian abuse. It's down to that club to make sure that doesn't happen. That would be a big step forward in alienating these idiots from our game”

Bizarre statement from Miller.

Smartie
26-03-2019, 06:56 PM
I stand corrected.

Willie Miller is clearly talking nonsense, and that would not work.

I suspect he misunderstands the concept though - he does refer to strict liability and he did seem in favour of clubs taking some form of responsibility instead of the none that is currently the case, and not working.

Diclonius
26-03-2019, 06:56 PM
Hey, here's an idea - if Celtic/Rangers will do nothing about it then why don't the non-OF clubs themselves make a stand?

Stick a big CCTV camera on the whole away end and ban anyone who sings sectarian songs from Easter Road for ten years. If we do it right that's around 1,000 fans (or in the case of Rangers probably the whole end). They have plenty fans who will replace them so repeat the process until they realise if they come out with the party songs they won't be invited back.

hibbyfraelibby
26-03-2019, 06:57 PM
Strict liability is fine if the perpetrators themselves had to pay the fines, gate receipt loses, damage costs etc

superfurryhibby
26-03-2019, 07:00 PM
I stand corrected.

Willie Miller is clearly talking nonsense, and that would not work.

I suspect he misunderstands the concept though - he does refer to strict liability and he did seem in favour of clubs taking some form of responsibility instead of the none that is currently the case, and not working.

I thought the same thing. Miller’s acknowledging that we need change and accountability, it’s just that he’s mistaking running a nightclub with running a football team.

Joe6-2
26-03-2019, 07:03 PM
I can see it now:

"HIBERNIAN have been hit with partial stadium closure for failing to control sectarian chanting from fans in the South Stand in last week's fixture against Rangers at Easter Road.

This unprecedented move by the SFA will force Hibs not to sell any tickets in the home stands for the upcoming game against Celtic. However, the away end will remain open for Celtic fans."

This scenario would not surprise me in the least!

The 90+2
26-03-2019, 07:20 PM
It is the actions of the clubs supporters. Rangers fans misbehave at ER it is them that get done. think it is the only way of resolving and also encouraging fans to self police. this is IMO in the main to let OF fans get away with things and should be brought in for that exact reason. As usual total lack of backbone and leadership in this country and to me it is the clubs and the football authorities who need to step up now.

Not what that pwick Miller was promoting though.

The 90+2
26-03-2019, 07:20 PM
Hey, here's an idea - if Celtic/Rangers will do nothing about it then why don't the non-OF clubs themselves make a stand?

Stick a big CCTV camera on the whole away end and ban anyone who sings sectarian songs from Easter Road for ten years. If we do it right that's around 1,000 fans (or in the case of Rangers probably the whole end). They have plenty fans who will replace them so repeat the process until they realise if they come out with the party songs they won't be invited back.

We won’t do it.

We simply want their money.

Keith_M
26-03-2019, 07:35 PM
Brian McLaughlin reports on the arrest of three Rangers Fans at ER for sectarian singing as part of his match report.

The result? He was subsequently banned from Ibrox, a ban which has now been ongoing for over four years.

Graham Spiers writes an article in the Herald in which he expresses disappointment that Rangers (the club he supports) are not doing enough to tackle sectarianism. He includes an account a Director of Rangers praising the sectarian 'Billy Boys' song.

The result? Rangers apply pressure on his employer, who eventually sack him.

They then sack a colleague of Spiers who dared to express her support for him on Twitter.


Does anybody seriously think that lot would accept Strict Liability for the disgusting behaviour of their bigoted Fans?

Tornadoes70
26-03-2019, 08:03 PM
From whats been posted it appears Miller is saying the host club would be liable for all fans behaviour whether home or away. I seem to recall there being talk of strict liability after the magnificent 2016 Scottish Cup win yet according to Miller's assertions then the SFA and Hampden would have remained liable regardless. It was assumed then that if strict liability had been incorporated that our club would have been heavily punished.

It seems inordinately unfair to punish the host club for an away fans section singing songs of either racist or bigoted origins.

Smartie
26-03-2019, 08:22 PM
From whats been posted it appears Miller is saying the host club would be liable for all fans behaviour whether home or away. I seem to recall there being talk of strict liability after the magnificent 2016 Scottish Cup win yet according to Miller's assertions then the SFA and Hampden would have remained liable regardless. It was assumed then that if strict liability had been incorporated that our club would have been heavily punished.

It seems inordinately unfair to punish the host club for an away fans section singing songs of either racist or bigoted origins.

The whole idea behind strict liability is that it would get fans self-policing.

If Rangers fans could get Hibs into bother by singing unacceptable songs at Easter Road, what do you think will happen?

I'm no bigot, but if someone could teach me the words to a few songs I might just be tempted to belt out a few tunes from the away end at Ibrox myself.

Tornadoes70
26-03-2019, 08:33 PM
The whole idea behind strict liability is that it would get fans self-policing.

If Rangers fans could get Hibs into bother by singing unacceptable songs at Easter Road, what do you think will happen?

I'm no bigot, but if someone could teach me the words to a few songs I might just be tempted to belt out a few tunes from the away end at Ibrox myself.

Yes, the main benefit being the home support hopefully beginning to self-police their own with the paradox being the potential misbehaviour of away fans if indeed Miller is correct in his assertions that the host club would be held liable for every supporter within the host stadium.

Moulin Yarns
26-03-2019, 10:18 PM
It is.

Former Aberdeen director of football Willie Miller

It's shame on the clubs if they don't accept strict liability. If you are licensed to host an event, you should be responsible for what happens at your ground. Whatever sanctions the authorities want to place upon any incident, they should be able to do that. It's a case of taking responsibility and not burying your head in the sand.

It doesn't matter if it's a small minority, it doesn't matter if it's the away fans, it's your responsibility, hosting that event, to make sure there are not the scenes we've had lately in terms of players' safety, racial abuse or sectarian abuse. It's down to that club to make sure that doesn't happen. That would be a big step forward in alienating these idiots from our game.

Simple solution, Hibs manager and captain approach the referee and tell him they will walk off if abuse from the away fans continues. The SFA would soon get the message if all teams acted the same way.

staunchhibby
26-03-2019, 10:25 PM
Don't sell them tickets

Hibs07p
27-03-2019, 08:49 AM
Brian McLaughlin reports on the arrest of three Rangers Fans at ER for sectarian singing as part of his match report.

The result? He was subsequently banned from Ibrox, a ban which has now been ongoing for over four years.

Graham Spiers writes an article in the Herald in which he expresses disappointment that Rangers (the club he supports) are not doing enough to tackle sectarianism. He includes an account a Director of Rangers praising the sectarian 'Billy Boys' song.

The result? Rangers apply pressure on his employer, who eventually sack him.

They then sack a colleague of Spiers who dared to express her support for him on Twitter.


Does anybody seriously think that lot would accept Strict Liability for the disgusting behaviour of their bigoted Fans?

Pretty sure it was Chris McLaughlin that was banned?

Anyway, the only way strict liability would work is if it was administered fairly, then the real offenders would be punished.
Anyone really think that there would be a fair system of identifying and punishing the most serious offences?
The SFA / SPFL conspire to run the Scottish game for the benefit of 1 or 2 teams and self preserve the high ranking officials attendance at major International tournaments, while their team is absent for over 20 years.
Stop the corruption within our governing bodies, media and referees, then we can talk about real strict liabilty being introduced fairly!

GGTTH
Scottish Cup Winners 2016

PeeKay
27-03-2019, 09:42 AM
Anyway, the only way strict liability would work is if it was administered fairly, then the real offenders would be punished.
Anyone really think that there would be a fair system of identifying and punishing the most serious offences?


I think this is the most important point. Just look at the way smaller clubs are hit with points deductions and fines for fielding ineligible players and compare that with the Hearts case. I have no faith that the people sitting in judgment in SFA/SPFL-administered scheme would have the bottle to sanction either of the OF appropriately.

I_Love_Latapy
27-03-2019, 12:01 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47646210

Only 3 of 42 SPFL clubs are for strict liability. Us and Abedeen responded neither for or against. Celtic, Rangers and Hearts didn't bother responding.

FWIW I'm a tentative supporter of Strict Liability and don't buy into the 'need to fix society first' argument. Enlightened football clubs can play a powerful role in changing society, as Canon Hannon showed.

BTW it seems that Tom English is using this issue to have a pop at us. Is this normal behaviour? https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47705675

The 90+2
27-03-2019, 12:01 PM
Don't sell them tickets

😂😂😂😂

The 90+2
27-03-2019, 12:02 PM
FWIW I'm a tentative supporter of Strict Liability and don't buy into the 'need to fix society first' argument. Enlightened football clubs can play a powerful role in changing society, as Canon Hannon showed.

BTW it seems that Tom English is using this issue to have a pop at us. Is this normal behaviour? https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47705675

We will be one of the first to get done under strict liability the Glasgow two the last.

Smartie
27-03-2019, 12:08 PM
FWIW I'm a tentative supporter of Strict Liability and don't buy into the 'need to fix society first' argument. Enlightened football clubs can play a powerful role in changing society, as Canon Hannon showed.

BTW it seems that Tom English is using this issue to have a pop at us. Is this normal behaviour? https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47705675

I think it's a good article and he makes many valid points, especially the part about graded punishments.

One lone nutter doing something out of the blue is different to relentless, sustained transgressing.

Carheenlea
27-03-2019, 12:18 PM
Leean Dempster has already stated that ‘nothing is ruled out’ with regard to how Hibs intend to deal with the recent issues at Easter Road. They’re probably neither for against at this stage, so that is reflected in the response given the black or white nature of the poll

superfurryhibby
27-03-2019, 03:07 PM
There are obviously going to be varying degrees of strictness when it comes to how strictly the inevitable strict liability laws are applied.

I imagine the focus will be on issues like bottle or coin throwing, encroachment onto the field by fan-nies. Chants and the like are harder to address and where would you draw the line?

Eyrie
27-03-2019, 08:19 PM
FWIW I'm a tentative supporter of Strict Liability and don't buy into the 'need to fix society first' argument. Enlightened football clubs can play a powerful role in changing society, as Canon Hannon showed.

BTW it seems that Tom English is using this issue to have a pop at us. Is this normal behaviour? https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47705675

I don't like us being mentioned first, but the reason for that is the two idiots in recent high profile games so I blame them and not English.

I did find it odd that King got praise without it being mentioned that his club's fans are one of the two worst offenders.

Oscar T Grouch
02-04-2019, 02:58 PM
Just listened to last nights Sportsound pod cast. Right at the end they said that Hibs who have had their own problems recently didn't even respond to the bbc survey, I am pretty sure we did respond but with a no comment. Does this matter that they got this wrong? Hibs were the only club they mentioned by name for not responding.

where'stheslope
02-04-2019, 03:19 PM
The whole idea behind strict liability is that it would get fans self-policing.

If Rangers fans could get Hibs into bother by singing unacceptable songs at Easter Road, what do you think will happen?

I'm no bigot, but if someone could teach me the words to a few songs I might just be tempted to belt out a few tunes from the away end at Ibrox myself.
That is why strict liability will never be risked by Scottish Clubs, there are just to many supporters from other teams that would love to give bother to others!!!
A name that comes to mind on this forum alone "G*********r".
The idea of strict liability it to prevent bother, not give avenues to get others into bother!!!!

green day
02-04-2019, 03:27 PM
Just listened to last nights Sportsound pod cast. Right at the end they said that Hibs who have had their own problems recently didn't even respond to the bbc survey, I am pretty sure we did respond but with a no comment. Does this matter that they got this wrong? Hibs were the only club they mentioned by name for not responding.

Correct, and no it doesnt matter - it was a throwaway remark by Tom English - he got it right in his article.

JimBHibees
02-04-2019, 04:01 PM
That is why strict liability will never be risked by Scottish Clubs, there are just to many supporters from other teams that would love to give bother to others!!!
A name that comes to mind on this forum alone "G*********r".
The idea of strict liability it to prevent bother, not give avenues to get others into bother!!!!

Not sure I agree with this, if someone is nicked for making out they were a Hibs fan only to be outed as a Hearts fan then problem solved. I think it needs to come in as the absolute lack of any action by authorities particularly football ones including clubs is an absolute joke and has IMO caused the rise in this sort of behaviour with no liability. The Offensive behaviour bill which was rejoiced over by I think in the main a celtic supporter labour mp is all well and good as long as there was something to replace it. This has encouraged muppets like their green brigade to think they are above the law and cause any amount of damage at some of the grounds they visit. The damage at motherwell a few years back was disgusting. Unfortunately the hard of thinking in other supports have followed suit including our own allied to the inevitable rise in the depressing dirge of another countries politics and glorification of murderers on all sides. Truly depressing especially when the league is as strong as it has been for years. Needs sorted pronto.

superfurryhibby
02-04-2019, 04:04 PM
That is why strict liability will never be risked by Scottish Clubs, there are just to many supporters from other teams that would love to give bother to others!!!
A name that comes to mind on this forum alone "G*********r".
The idea of strict liability it to prevent bother, not give avenues to get others into bother!!!!

The only time I’ve ever heard any suggestion that strict liability would be applied exclusively to the host club, rather than the offending team was from Windy Miller. I wouldn’t be ruling it out on the basis suggested.

What is clear is that the Police are very strongly advocating for change. The spokesman on Sportsound made that very clear. Whilst I have some reservations, in the long run it will play a part in cultural change needed in football. It’s definitely coming, one way or another.

JimBHibees
02-04-2019, 04:17 PM
Correct, and no it doesnt matter - it was a throwaway remark by Tom English - he got it right in his article.

I think it does matter when he gets it wrong. Indicates that Hibs arent bothered about it and not considering it when LD clearly indicated we were.