No VAR and 2 wrong decisiond. Is that better for the game?

[Hibbyradge]

Having taken a 2-0 lead, Swansea have just been knocked out of the FA Cup by Man City.

There was no VAR in operation and the referee wrongly awarded a penalty from which Man City equalised.

They went on to get a winner which was, TV showed, clearly offside.

There is a lot of opposition to VAR on this forum, so I would like to ask whether those with that view think that such a travesty as tonight is worth it to keep the technology away from the game?

I'm looking for a discussion, not an argument. :aok:

[DH1875]

I'm not a fan of it but get why its here. What I don't get though is why it wasn't at this game when its at the others this round.

[Bangkok Hibby]

Modern professional football is a joke compared to other modern, popular televised sports. Cameras are long overdue. Something has to be done to stamp out blatant cheating and help the officials make the correct decisions. Teams can lose out on millions of pounds due to one or a series of decisions which could quickly be corrected by cameras. Remember Thierry Henrys double handball against Ireland? Acceptable? Of course not.

[Lago]

Up to now it's the length of time it takes to make a decision, plus no one knows what is being discussed unlike the TV review system used in Rugby or Hawk eye in tennis, cricket.

[wookie70]

I'd rather it was there than not as losing games should be about the other team beating you not the ref making a mess of it. In Scotland it could stop some of teh bias and make the game much better. I'd like it to be the same as Rugby, a sport which constantly looks to make the rules benefit the sport, and have discussion open so the fans and players know what is going on.

[bingo70]

I hate VAR and I’m dreading the prospect of or coming into our game.

The best feeling in football Is watching your team score a goal and the raw emotion that comes with that. If it gets to the stage of not celebrating until VAR has been checked I think I might chuck it and just stay in the pub instead,

[Just Jimmy]

I was at Man Utd v Reading earlier in the same competition. there was VAR. in that same round there were games without it. I questioned how you can have some games but not others in the same competition in the same round without it and and others with and how that was fair. now they are playing different rounds with and without.

it makes no sense and it's a complete mockery of a level playing field. Swansea were mugged.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[stantonhibby]

I hate VAR and I’m dreading the prospect of or coming into our game.

The best feeling in football Is watching your team score a goal and the raw emotion that comes with that. If it gets to the stage of not celebrating until VAR has been checked I think I might chuck it and just stay in the pub instead,

Yep....from what i've seen so far not impressed with VAR at all. Goal line technology is a must but other than that i thought VAR was all about correcting obvious errors. If it takes 3,4,5 mins then it can't be obvious surely.

[IWasThere2016]

I think we need VAR. Game too quick for officials.

[Lago]

I was at Man Utd v Reading earlier in the same competition. there was VAR. in that same round there were games without it. I questioned how you can have some games but not others in the same competition in the same round without it and and others with and how that was fair. now they are playing different rounds with and without.

it makes no sense and it's a complete mockery of a level playing field. Swansea were mugged.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

Think it's classed as being trialed that's why only used in selected matches. Full implementation for EPL next season I believe.

[bingo70]

Yep....from what i've seen so far not impressed with VAR at all. Goal line technology is a must but other than that i thought VAR was all about correcting obvious errors. If it takes 3,4,5 mins then it can't be obvious surely.

I don’t crave perfection from the referees, win some you lose some is fine with me.

Goal line technology would be the obvious immediate benefit but the idea of slowing games down constantly isn’t for me.

I went to the ice hockey recently with nostalgic memories of how fast and end to end it all was, Enjoyed it in the end but was pretty disappointed with how stop start it was, if football ends up that way it’ll not be for me.....even if all red decisions end up being correct.

[hibee_girl]

Is it only being used at premier league grounds in the FA cup?

Seems a bit unfair that some games will have it and some won’t in the same competition. It should be all or nothing imo.

[Hibbyradge]

I don’t crave perfection from the referees, win some you lose some is fine with me.

Goal line technology would be the obvious immediate benefit but the idea of slowing games down constantly isn’t for me.

I went to the ice hockey recently with nostalgic memories of how fast and end to end it all was, Enjoyed it in the end but was pretty disappointed with how stop start it was, if football ends up that way it’ll not be for me.....even if all red decisions end up being correct.

I don't understand that view, Bingo, but fair enough.

However, I doubt there will be any Swansea fans that will be saying "yeah, VAR would have ruled out Man City's goals, and we'd be in the semifinal, but I'm delighted that the game wasn't delayed to get the decisions right".

[Hibbyradge]

Is it only being used at premier league grounds in the FA cup?



Yes.

[Just Jimmy]

Think it's classed as being trialed that's why only used in selected matches. Full implementation for EPL next season I believe.point still stands. trial it in a competition for from a certain round but not a game by game basis.

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[poolman]

Having taken a 2-0 lead, Swansea have just been knocked out of the FA Cup by Man City.

There was no VAR in operation and the referee wrongly awarded a penalty from which Man City equalised.

They went on to get a winner which was, TV showed, clearly offside.

There is a lot of opposition to VAR on this forum, so I would like to ask whether those with that view think that such a travesty as tonight is worth it to keep the technology away from the game?

I'm looking for a discussion, not an argument. :aok:


I like VAR, Swansea were cheated today

[Hibbyradge]

In 2012, Pa Kujabi fouled the boy Suso outside the box, but Thomson gave a penalty. We were never coming back from 3 - 1.

Is anyone really saying that they're glad VAR wasn't used to correct that "mistake" because they're happy the game wasn't delayed?

[KeithTheHibby]

VAR will help get the big decisions right and take the heat off the match officials and governing bodies.
It should be introduced as soon as possible up here.

[Hibee Mac]

I hate VAR and I’m dreading the prospect of or coming into our game.

The best feeling in football Is watching your team score a goal and the raw emotion that comes with that. If it gets to the stage of not celebrating until VAR has been checked I think I might chuck it and just stay in the pub instead,

This 100%!

Luckily for us I doubt it would come to the Scottish game anytime soon anyway.

[Hibbyradge]

This 100%!

Luckily for us I doubt it would come to the Scottish game anytime soon anyway.

So, in answer to my question, are you saying that wrong decisions are preferable to delays, regardless of the consequences of those wrong decisions?

[bingo70]

I don't understand that view, Bingo, but fair enough.

However, I doubt there will be any Swansea fans that will be saying "yeah, VAR would have ruled out Man City's goals, and we'd be in the semifinal, but I'm delighted that the game wasn't delayed to get the decisions right".

Mind that game in May 2016?

Imagine the second goal got ruled out as if you stopped the footage at a certain angle you’d have seen Stokes elbow Tavernier, then the third, that raw emotion that lead to those around me crying and falling over each other, replace that with people waiting patiently waiting for the correct decision.

It’s not for me, football has by and large been fine (apart from the 1966 final) without VAR, why do we need perfection now?

[bingo70]

So, in answer to my question, are you saying that wrong decisions are preferable to delays, regardless of the consequences of those wrong decisions?

For me, yes.

In craving perfection you’re taking the raw emotion out of scoring a goal and the celebration that comes with it.

[Hibbyradge]

Mind that game in May 2016?

Imagine the second goal got ruled out as if you stopped the footage at a certain angle you’d have seen Stokes elbow Tavernier, then the third, that raw emotion that lead to those around me crying and falling over each other, replace that with people waiting patiently waiting for the correct decision.

It’s not for me, football has by and large been fine (apart from the 1966 final) without VAR, why do we need perfection now?

Why would there have been a delay after our third goal? :confused:

[Hibbyradge]

For me, yes.

In craving perfection you’re taking the raw emotion out of scoring a goal and the celebration that comes with it.

Only if it's controversial. By far the majority of goals are clear cut.

[Hibee Mac]

Only if it's controversial. By far the majority of goals are clear cut.

The trouble is that no one in the stadium knows if the goal stands until the the play is restarted.

Right now all it takes is a quick look at the linesman to check for offside while you're celebrating, I agree with Bingo you don't want to mess with the raw emotion after scoring, after all that's why we all turn up to the games

[Hibbyradge]

The trouble is that no one in the stadium knows if the goal stands until the the play is restarted.

Right now all it takes is a quick look at the linesman to check for offside while you're celebrating, I agree with Bingo you don't want to mess with the raw emotion after scoring, after all that's why we all turn up to the games

And all it takes is the linesman to put his flag up, wrongly, to deny you the opportunity of celebrating a good goal.

[CMac1988]

Up to now it's the length of time it takes to make a decision, plus no one knows what is being discussed unlike the TV review system used in Rugby or Hawk eye in tennis, cricket.

Yup. Streamline it and give more insight as with Rugby and it can only be a good thing. All for it but it has some way to go before it's ready.

[Hibbyradge]

Yup. Streamline it and give more insight as with Rugby and it can only be a good thing. All for it but it has some way to go before it's ready.

I agree it could be smoother and I'm sure it will improve as they get used to using it.

[bingo70]

Why would there have been a delay after our third goal? :confused:

I don’t know if you watch Rugby union but it’s got to the stage where refs are scared to make a decision on a try in case they get it wrong.

I think on that occasion they’d check the corner didn’t swing out the park, Gray never infringed on anyone and make sure nobody committed a foul in the box that allowed Gray to get a header in.

Of course any checks would show the goal was fine but they would have checked it.

[Hibbyradge]

I don’t know if you watch Rugby union but it’s got to the stage where refs are scared to make a decision on a try in case they get it wrong.

I think on that occasion they’d check the corner didn’t swing out the park, Gray never infringed on anyone and make sure nobody committed a foul in the box that allowed Gray to get a header in.

Of course any checks would show the goal was fine but they would have checked it.

I've never seen anything like that happen.

There was nothing contentious about Gray's goal so VAR wouldn't have been considered.

Man City were given a penalty they shouldn't have been given. There shouldn't have been any raw emotion because a goal wasn't scored. Until the referee intervened. It's just wrong.

I dare say you're not going to change your view, I certainly won't, so let's just agree to disagree.

[Michael]

I thought VAR was great at the world cup. Added a new layer of drama.

[HibeeHibernian4]

I hate VAR and I’m dreading the prospect of or coming into our game.

The best feeling in football Is watching your team score a goal and the raw emotion that comes with that. If it gets to the stage of not celebrating until VAR has been checked I think I might chuck it and just stay in the pub instead,

100%. Hopefully it never ever comes in for Scotland. Football for the TV consumer not the matchgoing fan.

[Hibee Mac]

And all it takes is the linesman to put his flag up, wrongly, to deny you the opportunity of celebrating a good goal.

I think you missed my point. With a linesman wrongly flagging you know in a second, with VAR it could be chalked off any time from the goal to the kick off.

Some are all for VAR, others think that with poor decisions you win some and you lose some and it's a danger to keep tinkering with the rules of the game too much.

[Hibbyradge]

3 goals in the Wolves v Man U game tonight. VAR not required for any of them.

A wrongly awarded red card was changed to yellow after a VAR review.

That's all good, right?

[brog]

Having taken a 2-0 lead, Swansea have just been knocked out of the FA Cup by Man City.

There was no VAR in operation and the referee wrongly awarded a penalty from which Man City equalised.

They went on to get a winner which was, TV showed, clearly offside.

There is a lot of opposition to VAR on this forum, so I would like to ask whether those with that view think that such a travesty as tonight is worth it to keep the technology away from the game?

I'm looking for a discussion, not an argument. :aok:

I had 3-2 City & Swansea ht, City ft. I'm a big fan of no VAR 😁

[bingo70]

3 goals in the Wolves v Man U game tonight. VAR not required for any of them.

A wrongly awarded red card was changed to yellow after a VAR review.

That's all good, right?

Meh......

Win some lose some still wins in my view

[Hibee Mac]

I thought VAR was great at the world cup. Added a new layer of drama.

So did I until it changed the course of the final with the handball decision against Perisic. That decision actually sums up pretty well what I don't like about VAR, the decisions can become robotic and based on technicalities.

[Hibbyradge]

I think you missed my point. With a linesman wrongly flagging you know in a second, with VAR it could be chalked off any time from the goal to the kick off.

Some are all for VAR, others think that with poor decisions you win some and you lose some and it's a danger to keep tinkering with the rules of the game too much.

Yes, you know in a second, but it's wrong. You should be celebrating.

It seems that some fans are happy to accept wrongly awarded penalties, penalties wrongly not awarded, offsides given and not given, red cards wrongly awarded or not and simulation etc etc just so that they don't have to wait for confirmation that an occasional marginal goal is good.

It seems mad to me, but it must make sense to others.

[Hibbyradge]

Meh......

Win some lose some still wins in my view

I'm sure all the referees who always seem to give Rantic the benefit of the doubt agree with you.

[bingo70]

Yes, you know in a second, but it's wrong. You should be celebrating.

It seems that some fans are happy to accept wrongly awarded penalties, penalties wrongly not awarded, offsides given and not given, red cards wrongly awarded or not and simulation etc etc just so that they don't have to wait for confirmation that an occasional marginal goal is good.

It seems mad to me, but it must make sense to others.

You crave perfection but that’s not realistic in my opinion.

Football has been fine for years without VAR, I don’t see why we need it now.

[bingo70]

I'm sure all the referees who always seem to give Rantic the benefit of the doubt agree with you.

They don’t IMO and that’s maybe why I’m against VAR.

If VAR was in place at the most recent game against the Rangers we might not have equalised.

Any suggestion of bias is nonsense imo, that’s why I think I’d rather stick with the win some and lose some option.

The exception to that is goal line technology which has been proven to be quick, decisive and beyond argument.

[Hibbyradge]

You crave perfection but that’s not realistic in my opinion.

Football has been fine for years without VAR, I don’t see why we need it now.

I don't crave perfection. I want obviously wrong decisions to be corrected.

Football has not been fine.

Colin Campbell not being awarded a penalty after being brought down in the box in the 1979 final, was not fine.

The Dundee United goal which hit the back stantion before being handed to a Partick Thistle player in the box, only for the ref to say "play on" was not fine.

The penalty awarded against us in 2012, was not fine.

Etc etc etc.

That's a flawed game at best, corrupt at worst.

[bingo70]

I don't crave perfection. I want obviously wrong decisions to be corrected.

Football has not been fine.

Colin Campbell not being awarded a penalty after being brought down in the box in the 1979 final, was not fine.

The Dundee United goal which hit the back stantion before being handed to a Partick Thistle player in the box, only for the ref to say "play on" was not fine.

The penalty awarded against us in 2012, was not fine.

Etc etc etc.

That's a flawed game at best, corrupt at worst.

Yet despite these mistakes millions of people still love football.

All the teams you mentioned have benefited from bad decisions too.

Anyway, as you said earlier, you’re not going to chamge my mind so let’s just agree I’m right and move on.

[Hibbyradge]

Yet despite these mistakes millions of people still love football.

All the teams you mentioned have benefited from bad decisions too.

Anyway, as you said earlier, you’re not going to chamge my mind so let’s just agree I’m right and move on.

:agree:

[Wee Effen Bee]

I hate VAR and I’m dreading the prospect of or coming into our game.

The best feeling in football Is watching your team score a goal and the raw emotion that comes with that. If it gets to the stage of not celebrating until VAR has been checked I think I might chuck it and just stay in the pub instead,
This is a sound reason why VAR isn’t the Medicinal Compound many make it out to be. Yes there were serious mistakes in that game - just as there are in 100s of games. Unfortunately though, not all leagues will ‘benefit’ from the VAR experience. I prefer the spontaneity of football and dread the advent of 3 hour, stop-start, bore fests.

[MWHIBBIES]

Anyone who doesn't want VAR wasn't at our play off games against Falkirk. Most frustrating games every, being kicked, fouled, cheated for 180 minutes, denied a penalty at 2-1 up in first leg, Falkirk player not sent off in 2nd leg.


No one could honestly be happy with not having VAR with the amount of times Hibs have been utterly shafted in big games. Disrupt all you want, I want Hibs to win or lose based on the performance of Hibs players, not the referee.

[Wee Effen Bee]

Anyone who doesn't want VAR wasn't at our play off games against Falkirk. Most frustrating games every, being kicked, fouled, cheated for 180 minutes, denied a penalty at 2-1 up in first leg, Falkirk player not sent off in 2nd leg.


No one could honestly be happy with not having VAR with the amount of times Hibs have been utterly shafted in big games. Disrupt all you want, I want Hibs to win or lose based on the performance of Hibs players, not the referee.

No one is saying they are happy but that’s not the issue. There’s been instances where VAR was used and the ref still called it wrongly. We have benefited numerous times from dodgy decisions - someone made the point about Stokes’ ‘nudge’ on Tavernier and there was Stevenson’s push in the box earlier in the game. We don’t need VAR for throw ins but one of my concerns is that it will eventually be used for them. May as well have robot refs with everyone watching fitba from home voting for a decision on a wee console. I love my game - warts an’ all!

[BoomtownHibees]

Anyone who doesn't want VAR wasn't at our play off games against Falkirk.

I was at the games but don’t want VAR

[HibeeHibernian4]

Anyone who doesn't want VAR wasn't at our play off games against Falkirk. Most frustrating games every, being kicked, fouled, cheated for 180 minutes, denied a penalty at 2-1 up in first leg, Falkirk player not sent off in 2nd leg.


No one could honestly be happy with not having VAR with the amount of times Hibs have been utterly shafted in big games. Disrupt all you want, I want Hibs to win or lose based on the performance of Hibs players, not the referee.

Was at both legs, would go through that all again instead of having VAR if they were the two options.

For the couch consumer, not the football fan. Hopefully it never ever comes into Scotland.

[Hibbyradge]

For the couch consumer, not the football fan. Hopefully it never ever comes into Scotland.

It's actually for the referees.

Most weeks, particularly if we've lost, there are threads accusing referees of corruption and/or incompetence.

VAR will help to resolve that.

"The ref was a biased, cheating, hun-lover, but at least we didn't stop the game for 90 seconds to sort it out", will be said by no-one, ever.

And it will definitely come into the SPFL, within the next 5 years, probably sooner when it's shown to have improved the game in England.

[WhileTheChief..]

VAR decision goes against Rangers - it’s Celtic people operating it.

VAR decision goes against Celtic - it’s Rangers people operating it.

Back to to square one!

[neil7908]

For me the debate is over - VAR is here whether you like it or not (it's a good thing imo).

The focus now needs to be ensuring equal coverage at all top flight grounds in Scotland and making the process quicker.

It's taking too long to review decisions compared with other sports and that can suck the life out of the a game if there are too many stoppages.

There is too much money now in the football for one man's mistakes to decide a game. The playoff final in England is worth what £120m? And a terrible error by one man, when we have an army of cameras, can decide the course of that game?

[Hibbyradge]

VAR decision goes against Rangers - it’s Celtic people operating it.

VAR decision goes against Celtic - it’s Rangers people operating it.

Back to to square one!

VAR isn't going to cure chronic paranoia. Those ridiculous accusations will be made regardless of the circumstances.

The difference being, more decisions are correct.

[neil7908]

VAR decision goes against Rangers - it’s Celtic people operating it.

VAR decision goes against Celtic - it’s Rangers people operating it.

Back to to square one!

It will never get rid of all controversy, a great example being the Manchester United penalty against PSG - I must have watched that 10 times and still don't know if it was the right decision.

But clear errors like say Shaw and Griffiths 'goals' against Hearts would be checked and the correct call made.

[Hibbyradge]

For me the debate is over - VAR is here whether you like it or not (it's a good thing imo).

The focus now needs to be ensuring equal coverage at all top flight grounds in Scotland and making the process quicker.

It's taking too long to review decisions compared with other sports and that can suck the life out of the a game if there are too many stoppages.

There is too much money now in the football for one man's mistakes to decide a game. The playoff final in England is worth what £120m? And a terrible error by one man, when we have an army of cameras, can decide the course of that game?

Obviously, I agree.

I do feel that people are a bit selective when they moan about the potential for delays.

It would be interesting to count the total amount of time wasted during the delays when players are being treated for injuries, real or invented. I don't hear too many complaining about that even though most of that time is lost.

When VAR is shown to be a success in England, our game will look even more amateur in comparison than it does now.

While the EPL are getting decisions right, "highlights" of games in Scotland will be getting laughed at because of the referee's mistakes/incompetence/corruption, delete as appropriate.

The SFA and SPFL are regularly criticised for being unable to negotiate a more lucrative TV deal, yet suggestions to improve the product for TV viewer are slammed.

[Springbank]

ref Alan Muir failed to give us a pen v Falkirk in the playoffs (when the boy ROLLED the ball with his hand) and it kept us relegated for a whole extra season.

when leigh griffiths scored a free kick v hearts that was so far over the line that NASA could spot it, the officials failed to spot it and it cost us a home derby win

olly shaws goal at tynecastle cost us an away win in the derby when officials failed to spot it

see folk who say "waiting 150 seconds is too long" naaah we NEED var and we NEED correct decisions.

theres my 3 reasons to bring in var asap

[bingo70]

Obviously, I agree.

I do feel that people are a bit selective when they moan about the potential for delays.

It would be interesting to count the total amount of time wasted during the delays when players are being treated for injuries, real or invented. I don't hear too many complaining about that even though most of that time is lost.

When VAR is shown to be a success in England, our game will look even more amateur in comparison than it does now.

While the EPL are getting decisions right, "highlights" of games in Scotland will be getting laughed at because of the referee's mistakes/incompetence/corruption, delete as appropriate.

The SFA and SPFL are regularly criticised for being unable to negotiate a more lucrative TV deal, yet suggestions to improve the product are slammed for being so ed at the TV viewer.

Forgetting my views on VAR for a second as I agree there’s an inevitability about it coming in, do you have faith in the SFA/SPFL doing it effectively?

Imo it’s an absolute certainty they’ll make a complete erse of it one way or another.

[J-C]

I like VAR but it needs quickened up, done properly big decisions should go the correct way. Lindelof's tackle last night when it overturned a red is a perfect example.

[Hibbyradge]

Forgetting my views on VAR for a second as I agree there’s an inevitability about it coming in, do you have faith in the SFA/SPFL doing it effectively?

Imo it’s an absolute certainty they’ll make a complete erse of it one way or another.

Yes.

There will be teething problems, just as there were at the world cup and the FA cup, but it will settle down.

You'll still have a few months to whinge about it though, so it's a win win. :wink: :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

I've just thought of another benefit from bringing in VAR, albeit an unintentional spin-off.

When I started going to games, they would finish, unless Rantic were needing a goal :wink:, at precisely 4.40pm.

Now, because of the longer halftime break, and because referees are more inclined to add on time for stoppages after both halves, it's closer to 5.00pm before the final whistle sounds.

On the occasions that there has been a VAR delay, it will be even closer to the hour mark.

The early leavers will be delighted!

[bingo70]

Yes.

There will be teething problems, just as there were at the world cup and the FA cup, but it will settle down.

You'll still have a few months to whinge about it though, so it's a win win. :wink: :greengrin

If you’re expecting my whinging to stop after a few months you’re sadly mistaken.

[Hibbyradge]

If you’re expecting my whinging to stop after a few months you’re sadly mistaken.

I'm an optimist! :hilarious

[JimBHibees]

I don't crave perfection. I want obviously wrong decisions to be corrected.

Football has not been fine.

Colin Campbell not being awarded a penalty after being brought down in the box in the 1979 final, was not fine.

The Dundee United goal which hit the back stantion before being handed to a Partick Thistle player in the box, only for the ref to say "play on" was not fine.

The penalty awarded against us in 2012, was not fine.

Etc etc etc.

That's a flawed game at best, corrupt at worst.

I agree anything which makes better decisions can only be good especially in Scotland where it appears certain officials can make mistake after mistake without consequence. Would rather a minor delay than obvious errors being allowed like the Swansea game.

[Eyrie]

If the main objection to getting decisions right using VAR is that it stops the game, then that is easily resolved.

Have a very limited list of circumstances where VAR can be used. Put a time limit of 60 seconds on how long the referee can review an incident for. If he has to look for longer than that then it isn't clear and obvious, so stick with the original call.

We'd have maybe half a dozen incidents in our entire season, and I'm more than willing to wait for 60 seconds on two or three occasions at Easter Road whilst the referee gets the decision right.

On the other hand, if the main objection is that human error has always been part of the game, then I'm fed up with "errors" by the likes of Craig Henry Edward Albert Thomson or Muir that have a massive effect on our entire season.

[Caversham Green]

If the main objection to getting decisions right using VAR is that it stops the game, then that is easily resolved.

Have a very limited list of circumstances where VAR can be used. Put a time limit of 60 seconds on how long the referee can review an incident for. If he has to look for longer than that then it isn't clear and obvious, so stick with the original call.

We'd have maybe half a dozen incidents in our entire season, and I'm more than willing to wait for 60 seconds on two or three occasions at Easter Road whilst the referee gets the decision right.

On the other hand, if the main objection is that human error has always been part of the game, then I'm fed up with "errors" by the likes of Craig Henry Edward Albert Thomson or Muir that have a massive effect on our entire season.

This is where I am with VAR. I was originally all for it, but a few decisions this season have changed my mind a bit - particularly the Derby v Southampton cup game. Derby scored what looked like a good goal but after around two minutes and a lot of line drawing the VAR decided that Waghorn's shoulder was in an offside position. Later in the same game what looked like an offside Derby goal was ruled legitimate because a defender's heel was playing the scorer onside. The decisions were (probably) technically correct but they destroyed the moment and took away a lot of what makes football enjoyable to watch. IMO this was overuse of the facility.

Another drawback is that linesmen are now advised not to flag for marginal offsides, so there's likely to be more disallowed goals if we continue in this vein. As for last night's red card, I think it was debatable whether it should have been a red or not, but the linesman who flagged was in a better position to judge than someone watching it on a screen.

I agree that 'clear and obvious' should be the criteria as well as off the ball incidents or other things that the ref/linesmen didn't see.