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Hibsman07
14-03-2019, 08:09 AM
"the behaviour and attitudes that stem from strong loyalty to one's own tribe or social group." there we go.

It's F all to do with sectarianism/racism/homophobia per se', on a personal level, it's all about being recognised as part of a clan.

I am a Jehovah's Witness btw :not worth

Since452
14-03-2019, 08:22 AM
I'll remember that the next time a Rangers fan calls me or my family Fenian *******s. Just a bit of harmless tribalism.

1van Sprou7e
14-03-2019, 08:33 AM
"the behaviour and attitudes that stem from strong loyalty to one's own tribe or social group." there we go.

It's F all to do with sectarianism/racism/homophobia per se', on a personal level, it's all about being recognised as part of a clan.

I am a Jehovah's Witness btw :not worth

What? Tribalism and sectarianism are not mutually exclusive...

Hibsman07
14-03-2019, 08:34 AM
I'll remember that the next time a Rangers fan calls me or my family Fenian *******s. Just a bit of harmless tribalism.

And this happened when ? Did i say it was harmless?? I proffered an opinion as to why individuals act as they do when part of a crowd. A need for acceptance was/is my standpoint.

Interpret it any way you want, but personally i have never encountered open hostility on a one to one basis with any follower of any club. They hunt with the hounds. Get my drift now ?

Keith_M
14-03-2019, 08:47 AM
[SIZE=4]

I am a Jehovah's Witness btw


They don't swear

Hibsman07
14-03-2019, 08:50 AM
What? Tribalism and sectarianism are not mutually exclusive...

Did i say that they were? NO !! They can , and do, occur in "mutually exclusive" instances. In my humble opinion individuals feed of others and act accordingly.
Thus they sing "Billy Boys" or "Fields of Athenry" with no thought to the meaning or origins of their groups chosen anthems, rather than be questioned as to their loyalty by not "joining in "

Tribal need not be sectarian btw, although it often develops from that root

By that i meant sectarianism comes out of tribalism and not vice versa

Hibsman07
14-03-2019, 08:53 AM
They don't swear

I'm the exception, got "disfellowshipped for telling an Elder to F** O**. :cb..Plus i smoked and had an eye for the sisters in attendance :wink:

Future17
14-03-2019, 08:55 AM
And this happened when ? Did i say it was harmless?? I proffered an opinion as to why individuals act as they do when part of a crowd. A need for acceptance was/is my standpoint.

Interpret it any way you want, but personally i have never encountered open hostility on a one to one basis with any follower of any club. They hunt with the hounds. Get my drift now ?

A need for acceptance of what?

Hibsman07
14-03-2019, 09:10 AM
A need for acceptance of what?

Jeez !!!! Are you in with the in crowd? Maybe you are Hermit Crab in disguise :not worth

Hibernia&Alba
14-03-2019, 10:24 AM
"the behaviour and attitudes that stem from strong loyalty to one's own tribe or social group." there we go.

It's F all to do with sectarianism/racism/homophobia per se', on a personal level, it's all about being recognised as part of a clan.

I am a Jehovah's Witness btw :not worth

Are you really a Jehovah's Witness? Don't think I've ever met one. I mind they used to come around occasionally, knocking on doors when we were kids, spreading the Word. My mam would just open the door and say "we're Catholic" and they'd bolt :hilarious

Besties Debut
14-03-2019, 10:29 AM
Are you really a Jehovah's Witness? Don't think I've ever met one. I mind they used to come around occasionally, knocking on doors when we were kids, spreading the Word. My mam would just open the door and say "we're Catholic" and they'd bolt :hilarious My old man used to tell them we were satanists.

Hibernia&Alba
14-03-2019, 10:30 AM
My old man used to tell them we were satanists.

He'd say you were Hearts fans? Nae need :greengrin

Hibsman07
14-03-2019, 10:35 AM
Are you really a Jehovah's Witness? Don't think I've ever met one. I mind they used to come around occasionally, knocking on doors when we were kids, spreading the Word. My mam would just open the door and say "we're Catholic" and they'd bolt :hilarious

Indeed i attained to be of the "Truth" but they found me to be too "of the World" and rejected me. My forthright views and love of "manly pursuits" did not sit comfortably with them. i was not deemed :not worth

Hibernia&Alba
14-03-2019, 10:36 AM
Indeed i attained to be of the "Truth" but they found me to be too "of the World" and rejected me. My forthright views and love of "manly pursuits" did not sit comfortably with them. i was not deemed :not worth

Did you have a very strictly religious upbringing?

The Harp
14-03-2019, 10:41 AM
Are you really a Jehovah's Witness? Don't think I've ever met one. I mind they used to come around occasionally, knocking on doors when we were kids, spreading the Word. My mam would just open the door and say "we're Catholic" and they'd bolt :hilarious

Reminds me of my dad. We used to have Jehovah's witnesses coming to our door back in the day. My dad used to take their Watchtower magazine until he actually read it one time and found some anti Catholic articles. That was the end of their visits.

Hibbyradge
14-03-2019, 10:45 AM
Hibs.net is becoming stranger with every passing day.

:crazy:

JXM73
14-03-2019, 10:48 AM
Religion in all it's forms is just bull****, don't care who that offends but arguing over who's imaginary friend is better, really?

Hibsman07
14-03-2019, 10:49 AM
Hibs.net is becoming stranger with every passing day.

:crazy:

Beats banging the drum about NL and attendances though :wink:

Hibsman07
14-03-2019, 10:51 AM
Did you have a very strictly religious upbringing?

Got kicked out of the Band of Hope, does that count ?

hibsbollah
14-03-2019, 10:53 AM
I've just been reading an article by a native American, objecting to the use of the word tribalism in a strictly negative sense. He was pointing out that tribalism is actually consistent with attributes like sharing, family, conscientiousness, promotion of the group at the expense of the individual, et al.

The native groups don't like it when 'tribalism' is used in a pejorative sense, especially in relation to partisan politics.

Just chucking that one out there:whistle:

Hibernia&Alba
14-03-2019, 10:58 AM
Religion in all it's forms is just bull****, don't care who that offends but arguing over who's imaginary friend is better, really?

I'm very much of this opinion, but each tae their ain. We all need something to help us along.

Pretty Boy
14-03-2019, 10:59 AM
I agree with the OP to an extent.

Sectarianism in a Scottish football context isn't generally motivated by theology or religious doctrine. It's motivated by a desire to be different from the 'other lot'. On a wider level I'd argue many who line the streets for Orange Order marches or whatever have a similar mindset. There's a reason thousands pack town and city centres for these but Kirks lie half empty every week.

Hibsman07
14-03-2019, 11:12 AM
I've just been reading an article by a native American, objecting to the use of the word tribalism in a strictly negative sense. He was pointing out that tribalism is actually consistent with attributes like sharing, family, conscientiousness, promotion of the group at the expense of the individual, et al.

The native groups don't like it when 'tribalism' is used in a pejorative sense, especially in relation to partisan politics.

Just chucking that one out there:whistle:

Which all fits the model Hibernian FC.


"promotion of the group" herein lies the problem. The group attain to be the best/strongest, hence the "we are the people" mentality which then emanates itself by disparaging other (often weaker) groups who they feel threatened by. So they target the other groups cultures and beliefs, and in doing so perpetuate a system whereby they believe themselves to be supreme and we are all lesser mortals..... New Rangers e.g.

NORTHERNHIBBY
14-03-2019, 11:14 AM
Religion in all it's forms is just bull****, don't care who that offends but arguing over who's imaginary friend is better, really?

Religion is for Sunday's and football is for Saturday's. Sooner we get back to those basics the better.

NAE NOOKIE
14-03-2019, 11:16 AM
Religion in all it's forms is just bull****, don't care who that offends but arguing over who's imaginary friend is better, really?

In my experience you'll be pushed to see an argument between two folk of differing religions that gets anywhere as impassioned as between a religious person and an atheist and the atheist is usually the one losing the plot ….. I can understand folk getting steamed up about stuff they believe in, but I can never understand folk being so vociferous in their argument against something they say doesn't exist :greengrin

Future17
14-03-2019, 11:16 AM
I agree with the OP to an extent.

Sectarianism in a Scottish football context isn't generally motivated by theology or religious doctrine. It's motivated by a desire to be different from the 'other lot'. On a wider level I'd argue many who line the streets for Orange Order marches or whatever have a similar mindset. There's a reason thousands pack town and city centres for these but Kirks lie half empty every week.

I've maybe missed something on a related thread, but I'd be surprised if anyone was suggesting otherwise.

It's not a reason not to seek to eradicate the base problem though; if anything, it should be incentive to try harder.

Hibbyradge
14-03-2019, 11:20 AM
In my experience you'll be pushed to see an argument between two folk of differing religions that gets anywhere as impassioned as between a religious person and an atheist and the atheist is usually the one losing the plot ….. I can understand folk getting steamed up about stuff they believe in, but I can never understand folk being so vociferous in their argument against something they say doesn't exist :greengrin

I haven't heard of atheists planting bombs or cutting people's heads off.

Sioux
14-03-2019, 11:26 AM
Did i say that they were? NO !! They can , and do, occur in "mutually exclusive" instances. In my humble opinion individuals feed of others and act accordingly.
Thus they sing "Billy Boys" or "Fields of Athenry" with no thought to the meaning or origins of their groups chosen anthems, rather than be questioned as to their loyalty by not "joining in "

Tribal need not be sectarian btw, although it often develops from that root

By that i meant sectarianism comes out of tribalism and not vice versa

How is that song the same as the billy boys?

Since452
14-03-2019, 11:30 AM
Arguing over religion is like arguing over who'd win a fight between the tooth fairy and the Easter bunny

Hibsman07
14-03-2019, 11:30 AM
How is that song the same as the billy boys?

Where did i say it was the same? i merely quoted it as an example of the pi*H collective groups of people buy into without knowing hide nor hair about anything

hibsbollah
14-03-2019, 11:31 AM
Which all fits the model Hibernian FC.


"promotion of the group" herein lies the problem. The group attain to be the best/strongest, hence the "we are the people" mentality which then emanates itself by disparaging other (often weaker) groups who they feel threatened by. So they target the other groups cultures and beliefs, and in doing so perpetuate a system whereby they believe themselves to be supreme and we are all lesser mortals..... New Rangers e.g.

I get your point, but that's the difference between promotion of the group 'at the expense of the individual' which is the definition of selfless behaviour, and why I put that in there, and 'at the expense of another group' which is the opposite.

It's going all philosophical the day.

Future17
14-03-2019, 11:44 AM
Where did i say it was the same? i merely quoted it as an example of the pi*H collective groups of people buy into without knowing hide nor hair about anything

It's not really appropriate to compare a lack of understanding of the context or meaning of those two songs when those singing must have, at the very minimum, an understanding of what is conveyed by the basic language of the lyrics.

Fisherrow Harp
14-03-2019, 11:46 AM
I haven't heard of atheists planting bombs or cutting people's heads off.

Not religous at all, though plenty of atheistic goverments have killed plenty people in the past.

Hibsman07
14-03-2019, 11:54 AM
I get your point, but that's the difference between promotion of the group 'at the expense of the individual' which is the definition of selfless behaviour, and why I put that in there, and 'at the expense of another group' which is the opposite.

It's going all philosophical the day.

:aok:

The sacrifice of an individual for the greater group. Erm Jesus comes to mind, :loser:, Lot of good that did him other than Easter eggs for life :na na:

Now Faust...there was an individual who knew what he wanted :cb

Hibsman07
14-03-2019, 12:04 PM
It's not really appropriate to compare a lack of understanding of the context or meaning of those two songs when those singing must have, at the very minimum, an understanding of what is conveyed by the basic language of the lyrics.

But do they have an understanding? i stood in a bar in Morrison Street, Edinburgh and suffered the singing of Athenry by some dozen or so suited and booted business men fresh from the conference centre. When i challenged them as to why they were regaling all and sundry with that irrelevant crap they were at a loss as to the meaning and roots of the song. "oh was there a famine in Ireland?" "when was that then"

i'll give you this much though ..the HUN know for sure who Billy is.

NAE NOOKIE
14-03-2019, 12:17 PM
I haven't heard of atheists planting bombs or cutting people's heads off.

Yes you have, its just that nobody describes them as atheists. Example … the Kurdish PKK who are an atheist organisation have used suicide bombers in the past and various historical communist organisations around the world who are self described atheists have committed atrocities and murder on a mass scale that make ISIS and the inquisition look like pub league amateurs.

None of that is a defence of murder and killing in the name of religion, but neither is it a defence of atheism as a panacea for the failings of religion either.

Hibbyradge
14-03-2019, 12:30 PM
Yes you have, its just that nobody describes them as atheists. Example … the Kurdish PKK who are an atheist organisation have used suicide bombers in the past and various historical communist organisations around the world who are self described atheists have committed atrocities and murder on a mass scale that make ISIS and the inquisition look like pub league amateurs.

None of that is a defence of murder and killing in the name of religion, but neither is it a defence of atheism as a panacea for the failings of religion either.

Ok. I haven't heard of atheists murdering people for the sole reason that they believed in god.

"Convert to atheism or you die" no-one said, ever.

Pretty Boy
14-03-2019, 12:38 PM
Ok. I haven't heard of atheists murdering people for the sole reason that they believed in god.

"Convert to atheism or you die" no-one said, ever.

Tbf arguing with an atheist has probably bored a few people to death over the years.

Mick O'Rourke
14-03-2019, 12:42 PM
Yes you have, its just that nobody describes them as atheists. Example … the Kurdish PKK who are an atheist organisation have used suicide bombers in the past and various historical communist organisations around the world who are self described atheists have committed atrocities and murder on a mass scale that make ISIS and the inquisition look like pub league amateurs.

None of that is a defence of murder and killing in the name of religion, but neither is it a defence of atheism as a panacea for the failings of religion either.

3 of the 20th centuries most infamous tyrants, Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot all had religious childhoods/backgrounds.
Religion became a barrier to their pursuit of power, so it was rejected/put down.

Hibbyradge
14-03-2019, 12:45 PM
Tbf arguing with an atheist has probably bored a few people to death over the years.

:tee hee:

Mick O'Rourke
14-03-2019, 12:50 PM
Tbf arguing with an atheist has probably bored a few people to death over the years.

The lapsed atheists are worse!

The Baldmans Comb
14-03-2019, 12:57 PM
But do they have an understanding? i stood in a bar in Morrison Street, Edinburgh and suffered the singing of Athenry by some dozen or so suited and booted business men fresh from the conference centre. When i challenged them as to why they were regaling all and sundry with that irrelevant crap they were at a loss as to the meaning and roots of the song. "oh was there a famine in Ireland?" "when was that then"

i'll give you this much though ..the HUN know for sure who Billy is.

I have found they actually have no idea whatsoever who 'Billy" is or was.

The last line of their song usually reads

"For we are the Bridgeton Billy Boys" or "Brigton Derry Boys".

Billy Fullarton was a Glasgow razer gang leader from the "Bridgeton Cross area of the city in the late 1920's and 1930's when gangs were lined up on religious and territorial lines.

He was a facist and a general heavy and his gang "Billy's Boys" were involved in the usual violence, strike breaking, intimidation, theft and extortion.

Hating Catholics and minorities was just part of the DNA as was attending football matches on a Saturday.

Its therefore entirely appropriate that "The Rangers" fans regularly belt out this anthem even if they never knew who Billy was.

HUTCHYHIBBY
14-03-2019, 01:12 PM
Indeed i attained to be of the "Truth" but they found me to be too "of the World" and rejected me. My forthright views and love of "manly pursuits" did not sit comfortably with them. i was not deemed :not worth

You're gonna need to get a bigger boat! 👏

Future17
14-03-2019, 01:15 PM
But do they have an understanding? i stood in a bar in Morrison Street, Edinburgh and suffered the singing of Athenry by some dozen or so suited and booted business men fresh from the conference centre. When i challenged them as to why they were regaling all and sundry with that irrelevant crap they were at a loss as to the meaning and roots of the song. "oh was there a famine in Ireland?" "when was that then"

i'll give you this much though ..the HUN know for sure who Billy is.

The "roots" of a lot of songs are probably a mystery to a great many people who have sung them over the years. The same claim can rarely be made of the meaning of the base language of a song however and certainly not in the case of the two songs you referenced.

I find it extremely hard to believe that anyone who knows the lyrics of The Fields of Athenry doesn't know what those lyrics mean given how literal they are.

Mick O'Rourke
14-03-2019, 01:21 PM
I have found they actually have no idea whatsoever who 'Billy" is or was.

The last line of their song usually reads

"For we are the Bridgeton Billy Boys"

Billy Fullarten was a Glasgow razer gang leader from the "Bridgeton Cross area of the city in the late 1920's and 1930's when gangs were lined up on religious and territorial lines.

He was a facist and a general heavy and his gang "Billy's Boys" were involved in the usual violence, strike breaking, intimidation, theft and extortion.

Hating Catholics and minorities was just part of the DNA as was attending football matches on a Saturday.

Its therefore entirely appropriate that "The Rangers" fans regularly belt out this anthem even if they never knew who Billy was.
The Billy Boys song was put on a banned song list in 2011 (Scottish Government)
As was "The famine song"
I am not aware that this legislation has been repealed

So the powers are already there for arrests.

When the banned song list was made,police recruits were given the lyrics of some songs to memorise, so better equipped to arrest the songsters... Lol
Strange but true .

I would have though a large number of Glesga polis would know the words by heart ;-)

On Fullerton
He was a "brown shirt" (British Union of Fascists) and Oswald Mosley's right hand man in Scotland

Mick O'Rourke
14-03-2019, 01:59 PM
Beats banging the drum about NL and attendances though :wink:

No a Lambeg, i hope.:greengrin