Woman has sex with man,

[lapsedhibee]

later regrets it, decides to call it rape.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-47240670

The Humpty Dumpty theory of language - that a word can mean anything you want it to mean.

[Hibbyradge]

No, that's way too glib.

Women and girls get tricked into having consensual sex all the time. Promises of love, relationship, marriage etc and, right or wrong, I agree that can't be called rape.

But when the authorities are setting out to do exactly that, it's well beyond what I expect in our country.

The police damaged these innocent women mentally and that should not be tolerated.

FFS, she was an environmentalist so was there really a need to infiltrate in the first place?

[easty]

it's not rape...but it is massively wrong.

[danhibees1875]

it's not rape...but it is massively wrong.

That's where I've landed. :agree:

[lapsedhibee]

Polis were jerks but rape, and what constitutes rape, is a serious issue.

So is the credibility of accusers.

One of the hippie women "opened the glove compartment of his van looking for a pair of sunglasses. What she found inside would begin a process which dismantled undercover policing in the UK. It was a passport. The picture in it was the Mark she knew but the name next to it said his surname was Kennedy, not Stone".

Members of the jury, did the witness before you today think that her sunglasses could have been sufficiently flattened by the pages of a passport that she might find them between the last page and its cover?

She was clearly snooping in his personal stuff, violating his privacy. Tell the truth!

[danhibees1875]

Polis were jerks but rape, and what constitutes rape, is a serious issue.

So is the credibility of accusers.

One of the hippie women "opened the glove compartment of his van looking for a pair of sunglasses. What she found inside would begin a process which dismantled undercover policing in the UK. It was a passport. The picture in it was the Mark she knew but the name next to it said his surname was Kennedy, not Stone".

Members of the jury, did the witness before you today think that her sunglasses could have been sufficiently flattened by the pages of a passport that she might find them between the last page and its cover?

She was clearly snooping in his personal stuff, violating his privacy. Tell the truth!

If I stumbled accross a friends passport I'd immediately flick to the photo page for a good laugh.

She's had her life turned upside down by a state sponsored lie campaign. It doesn't sound like she was involved in anything particularly devious to warrant that either.

[Keyser Sauzee]

Morally, wrong. legally, not. Poor behaviour from the police tho.

[Fife-Hibee]

Is it anymore right when a man believes a woman loves her, only to find out later that it was actually his money, his possessions, his profession and his power that she "loved"?

I agree that it's very wrong in this case. These men abused their positions. However, people lie to get things all the time.

[Pretty Boy]

Is there not the potential to charge the men in question with fraud by false representation?

I understand there is an element of charade in many relationships at some point, particularly in the early days, but this seems far more serious and sinister.

[speedy_gonzales]

The key phrase here is "informed consent". It would appear the woman made a personal/relationship decision on the information she had to hand. That information was a fabricated story whereby the authorities were the architect.
Did the undercover cop act on his own or was he encouraged to get "inside"?

[Peevemor]

The key phrase here is "informed consent". It would appear the woman made a personal/relationship decision on the information she had to hand. That information was a fabricated story whereby the authorities were the architect.
Did the undercover cop act on his own or was he encouraged to get "inside"?

So if a guy meets a girl and says he's single (when he's not), they hit it off, she drags him home and they bonk all night, then that could be classed as rape?

[speedy_gonzales]

So if a guy meets a girl and says he's single (when he's not), they hit it off, she drags him home and they bonk all night, then that could be classed as rape?

Guy lies to get his hole, no, not rape in my books.

But we're told you must have consent these days (well, you always did but we turned in to a rapey race so this needed reinforced), if you deliberately misinform to get that consent, then technically, you've not had informed consent.
A bit ridiculous when we're taking about a single enterprise trying to get a knee trembler on a Saturday night, slightly different when we're talking about our Police who may or may not have been advocating such behaviour.

[beensaidbefore]

later regrets it, decides to call it rape.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-47240670

The Humpty Dumpty theory of language - that a word can mean anything you want it to mean.


The age old 'honey trap'. Tried and tested method really, only this time the roles have been reversed. There must be countless examples where men have been the 'victim'.

Wonder how people would feel if she had been found guilty of serious wrongdoing. Probably put it down to good police work.

[Smartie]

It's an abuse of power and position.

Would the lady in question ever have dreamt of forming a consensual relationship with someone in the police? Highly unlikely.

A different standard of behaviour is expected of certain groups of people - professionals, teachers, officers of the law etc.

I think it's rape, he's taken a liberty, deserves the full force of the law to come down upon him and in future there should be no doubt what is expected of an officer working undercover and what the consequences would be if they crossed the line.

If the law don't behave properly and they aren't held to account, why should anyone else?

[beensaidbefore]

It's an abuse of power and position.

Would the lady in question ever have dreamt of forming a consensual relationship with someone in the police? Highly unlikely.

A different standard of behaviour is expected of certain groups of people - professionals, teachers, officers of the law etc.

I think it's rape, he's taken a liberty, deserves the full force of the law to come down upon him and in future there should be no doubt what is expected of an officer working undercover and what the consequences would be if they crossed the line.

If the law don't behave properly and they aren't held to account, why should anyone else?

Surely if someone is suspected of something worthy of surveillance, you can't expect the police to tell them who they are? That just wouldn't work. I don't think surveillance is permitted without court authorisation either so she must have been under some suspicion. How the guy goes about getting the desired information is up for debate, I suppose, but we can assume he would have to be fairly convincing, otherwise it would be a waste of time.

[Slavers]

Surely if someone is suspected of something worthy of surveillance, you can't expect the police to tell them who they are? That just wouldn't work. I don't think surveillance is permitted without court authorisation either so she must have been under some suspicion. How the guy goes about getting the desired information is up for debate, I suppose, but we can assume he would have to be fairly convincing, otherwise it would be a waste of time.

James Bond made a career out of it?

[beensaidbefore]

James Bond made a career out of it?

Was he not more of a one night stand kinda guy?

[Hibbyradge]

The age old 'honey trap'. Tried and tested method really, only this time the roles have been reversed. There must be countless examples where men have been the 'victim'.

Wonder how people would feel if she had been found guilty of serious wrongdoing. Probably put it down to good police work.

That's a poor analogy.

A honey trap is usually a one off sexual encounter, set up as a blackmail device.

It's not about cultivating long lasting, emotional relationships

[beensaidbefore]

That's a poor analogy.

A honey trap is usually a one off sexual encounter, set up as a blackmail device.

It's not about cultivating long lasting, emotional relationships

Thats not how I understood a honey trap, so if that's wrong fair dos.

[Geo_1875]

Surely if someone is suspected of something worthy of surveillance, you can't expect the police to tell them who they are? That just wouldn't work. I don't think surveillance is permitted without court authorisation either so she must have been under some suspicion. How the guy goes about getting the desired information is up for debate, I suppose, but we can assume he would have to be fairly convincing, otherwise it would be a waste of time.

If he wanted to tap her phone or intercept her correspondence he'd need to provide evidence to obtain a warrant yet he's allowed to have sex with her in order to obtain evidence of wrongdoing. Doesn't seem right to me.

[Hibbyradge]

Thats not how I understood a honey trap, so if that's wrong fair dos.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey_trapping

[beensaidbefore]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey_trapping

There are also plenty occasions when it isn't a 'one off occasion'. It even says so on the wiki page.

[beensaidbefore]

If he wanted to tap her phone or intercept her correspondence he'd need to provide evidence to obtain a warrant yet he's allowed to have sex with her in order to obtain evidence of wrongdoing. Doesn't seem right to me.

My point was I'm sure had a warrant, and wasn't just doing the whole thing off his own back. The woman even says so herself. He was being directed from above.

[Smartie]

Surely if someone is suspected of something worthy of surveillance, you can't expect the police to tell them who they are? That just wouldn't work. I don't think surveillance is permitted without court authorisation either so she must have been under some suspicion. How the guy goes about getting the desired information is up for debate, I suppose, but we can assume he would have to be fairly convincing, otherwise it would be a waste of time.

I'm pretty sure he could have been convincing but stop short of starting sexual relationships with people.

When there was a hint of a relationship "going somewhere" there are a million different ways he could have stopped it from doing so whilst still maintaining the integrity of the original surveillance project.

He's taken a liberty and taken advantage of the poor woman. It's not on.

[NAE NOOKIE]

I'm pretty sure he could have been convincing but stop short of starting sexual relationships with people.

When there was a hint of a relationship "going somewhere" there are a million different ways he could have stopped it from doing so whilst still maintaining the integrity of the original surveillance project.

He's taken a liberty and taken advantage of the poor woman. It's not on.

Absolutely agree. Even in the event, unlikely or not, that the police officers involved had fallen in love with their targets the circumstances under which they had formed relationships with these women made forming a physical relationship morally out of the question … This was not James Bond and the women in question weren't members of the IRA or the bloody KGB …. they were environmental activists FFS whose biggest threat to national security would have been lying down in front of a bulldozer at Heathrow's proposed 3rd runway or sitting up a tree to block a proposed bypass.

There are good reasons that school teachers and members of some other professions are barred from having relationships with girls they come into contact with professionally, even if they are at the age of consent and morally I see no difference here.

Could you call it rape? That's hard to prove as consent was obviously given freely. But on every other level it was an abuse of position, power and trust and if nothing else the women concerned were treated shamefully, not just by the individual officers but by the police and by definition the state, both of whom clearly failed miserably in their duty to control or oversee what the police officers were doing.

On that basis no amount of compensation is enough in my opinion and the sackings should go all the way to the very top.

[overdrive]

Is there not the potential to charge the men in question with fraud by false representation?

I understand there is an element of charade in many relationships at some point, particularly in the early days, but this seems far more serious and sinister.

I would have thought there might be. My ex was a jury once where the accused was on a number of different charges. One them was precisely that. He was basically running fake porn castings (actually fake, not storyline fake like you get in pornos) as a way of banging lots of young ladies.

[lapsedhibee]

If I stumbled accross a friends passport I'd immediately flick to the photo page for a good laugh.
Disgraceful breach of your friend's human rights which should get you in to a lot of trouble up until March 29/end of June/sometime/never.

[beensaidbefore]

I'm pretty sure he could have been convincing but stop short of starting sexual relationships with people.

When there was a hint of a relationship "going somewhere" there are a million different ways he could have stopped it from doing so whilst still maintaining the integrity of the original surveillance project.

He's taken a liberty and taken advantage of the poor woman. It's not on.

As I understand it they were together as a couple for over 4 years. Would be hard not to have sex in that time, but does raise the question what we're they looking for for all that time? They being the govt/met.

[Speedway]

The Spy Who ****ged Me?

[DetroitHibs]

I’m betting there’s a **** ton of female spies that have used sex to get information etc.

[CropleyWasGod]

I’m betting there’s a **** ton of female spies that have used sex to get information etc.

Is that what happened in these cases?