Steve Clarke

[Callum_62]

Absolutely going off on one in his post match presser

“Steve Clarke: “It's lovely being back in the west of Scotland. When I was approached by Rangers about taking over the job here I was assured that we don't have that in the west of Scotland any more. “But to call me a f***** b******, come on. Where are we living? The dark ages?”

“Steve Clarke has called the red card “a joke”. He added: “if that’s the standard of decisions then we should pack up and go home. The officials have decided the game, every week - it’s embarrassing.”


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[Jonnyboy]

Absolutely going off on one in his post match presser

“Steve Clarke: “It's lovely being back in the west of Scotland. When I was approached by Rangers about taking over the job here I was assured that we don't have that in the west of Scotland any more. “But to call me a f***** b******, come on. Where are we living? The dark ages?”Steve Clarke: “


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I'm not a great fan of his …………. wait ………. I'm now a big fan of his :greengrin

[DaveF]

No doubt he brought it all on himself.

After all, Lennon did seemingly....

[The Modfather]

Absolutely going off on one in his post match presser

“Steve Clarke: “It's lovely being back in the west of Scotland. When I was approached by Rangers about taking over the job here I was assured that we don't have that in the west of Scotland any more. “But to call me a f***** b******, come on. Where are we living? The dark ages?”

“Steve Clarke has called the red card “a joke”. He added: “if that’s the standard of decisions then we should pack up and go home. The officials have decided the game, every week - it’s embarrassing.”


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Good to see someone not afraid to call things as they are and not shy away from a difficult subject. Hope Hibs can learn a few lessons here.

[Doh Rae Me]

What are the odds his comments make the newspapers tomorrow?

[brianmc]

Apparently he also thanked Chelsea FC for taking him away from the West coast of Scotland and allowing his kids to be brought up as 'normal' without the in built hatred 👍



*Source is Twitter though.....

[Hibbyradge]

Who called him a F'n B?

[brianmc]

Who called him a F'n B?

I'm going to guess the F is for Fenian and suggest that the guilty party will number 40,000+

[Slicer]

Who called him a F'n B?

Allegedly, a west of Scotland football fan.

[Doh Rae Me]

Who called him a F'n B?

The 45k knucledraggers who the media never seem to hear.

[Smartie]

Who called him a F'n B?

There were probably about 50k doing it in chorus together.

There certainly were whenever Stubbs or Lennon were in town.

I'm delighted they've been called out on it and even more delighted it's been by someone with a decent profile down South. It isn't acceptable in this day and age.

[B.H.F.C]

Don’t imagine anybody else will have heard what he did. Conveniently.

[cabbageandribs1875]

i like this guy :aok:

[green day]

Good to see someone not afraid to call things as they are and not shy away from a difficult subject. Hope Hibs can learn a few lessons here.

What lessons do Hibs need?

Did Lennon (as a Hibs employee) not call out sectarianism a few short months back?

Exactly the same as SC just did?

[Heisenberg]

I’m happy he’s brought it up. Bit annoying that he didn’t do the same on Sunday when it was the Celtc fans though. Both as bad as each other and it’s a problem that’ll never get fixed.

[Carheenlea]

Good to hear Clarke speak out and call it what it is - an embarrassment to Scotland. What happens now? Lengthy discussions for a couple of nights on Sportsound with “Boydy” “Faddy” “Doddsy” etc then swept to one side and we all carry on.

[Green&White]

He's spot on. Sad thing is he will most definitely get in more bother than the ref or the 40k + brain dead Neanderthals. Losing battle in Scottish football.

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[hibbydog]

Good on him.

Nothing will come of it though. The SFA / police Scotland’s years of inaction following countless similar problems is a guarantee of that.

Actually by doing nothing they’re condoning it. A Very depressing reality of our country and national game.

Well done Steve Clarke nonetheless

[CMurdoch]

Kris Boyd got it from bum cheek one at the weekend
Steve Clarke got it from bum cheek two tonight

Hateful pathetic stuff.
There are so many morons that attach themselves to football clubs but the bum cheeks Ireland v UK **** is beyond the pale in 21st Century Scotland.

IMO Clarke is more upset about the red card and subsequent gubbing and this is heightening his anger levels and driving his sectarian abuse comments.
Would he have made the same comments had they won? Probably not.
Has he faced the same comments at previous matches at Ibrox? Definitely
Will it help tee himself up with the Celtic supporters? Yes

[Bishop Hibee]

Well done Steve Clarke. However even on this thread we have 'whitabootery' and criticism of not being even handed with the abuse Boyd got. Does anyone on here genuinely believe Clarke doesn't condemn bigotry on both sides?

Most of this sectarian bile was eradicated from within Scottish stadiums before Rangers went bust. The owners of the new incarnation actively cultivated it and with the inevitable response from Celtc fans, although not on the same scale, has led us to the sorry mess we have now. I'll not hold my breath for the SPFL/SFA to do anything apart from possibly fine/ban Clarke.

[Cat Stanton]

Apparently he also thanked Chelsea FC for taking him away from the West coast of Scotland and allowing his kids to be brought up as 'normal' without the in built hatred 👍



*Source is Twitter though.....

On bbc now too: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47313458

[660]

On bbc now too: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47313458

Hm

[Joe6-2]

Good on him, and let's get these bloody so called referees sorted out

[1875godsgift]

Apparently he also thanked Chelsea FC for taking him away from the West coast of Scotland and allowing his kids to be brought up as 'normal' without the in built hatred 👍



*Source is Twitter though.....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47313458

He's gonna get his ar$e hung out to dry for saying it how it is though.

It needs all the other clubs to stand up and say we are all S. Clarketucus

[neil7908]

There were probably about 50k doing it in chorus together.

There certainly were whenever Stubbs or Lennon were in town.

I'm delighted they've been called out on it and even more delighted it's been by someone with a decent profile down South. It isn't acceptable in this day and age.

Nah that can't be right, it's just a very small minority. They are just really good at projecting their voices to sound like tens of thousands singing.

[The Tubs]

Fantastic words. Great that he makes it clear he’s talking about the west of Scotland too.

[Joe6-2]

Love how the bbc put sectarianism in coma's

[lapsedhibee]

On bbc now too: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47313458

Why is the word sectarian in scare quotes in that headline? Bizarre.

[neil7908]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47313458

He's gonna get his ar$e hung out to dry for saying it how it is though.

It needs all the other clubs to stand up and say we are all S. Clarketucus

It's great to hear someone say this. The SFA, media and bigot brothers have just got away with sweeping it under the carpet for so long now. Even guys like Boyd who called it out only do so when they are targeted (when has he ever commented on singing by his darling Sevco fans?).

Our game is a disgrace - corruption, sectarianism and incompetence rule in Scottish football and the rest of the clubs need to stand up and say no more.

[Ell_Chrisso]

He’s keen to go back down south at the next oppurtunity

[Joe6-2]

It's great to hear someone say this. The SFA, media and bigot brothers have just got away with sweeping it under the carpet for so long now. Even guys like Boyd who called it out only do so when they are targeted (when has he ever commented on singing by his darling Sevco fans?).

Our game is a disgrace - corruption, sectarianism and incompetence rule in Scottish football and the rest of the clubs need to stand up and say no more.

We and the clubs have put up with it for years, and I hate to say it, but can't see a single thing changing, love to be proved wrong

[CMurdoch]

Absolutely going off on one in his post match presser

“Steve Clarke: “It's lovely being back in the west of Scotland. When I was approached by Rangers about taking over the job here I was assured that we don't have that in the west of Scotland any more. “But to call me a f***** b******, come on. Where are we living? The dark ages?”

“Steve Clarke has called the red card “a joke”. He added: “if that’s the standard of decisions then we should pack up and go home. The officials have decided the game, every week - it’s embarrassing.”


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Months ago Steve Clarke stated that he hadn't been approached by Rangers and tonight he states he was :confused:.
Ya big fibber.

[neil7908]

We and the clubs have put up with it for years, and I hate to say it, but can't see a single thing changing, love to be proved wrong

Sadly I agree. There are few things in life more frustrating to me right now than Scottish football. It's not been a great year to be a Hibs fan but taking that aside it really feels like we've reached a nadir.

The fact that Sevco, the team who were drawn at home 12 consecutive games in the cup and were awarded 4 penalties in one game can claim referees are biased against them says so much about the state of things.

[Scottie]

Good on Clarke for calling it as it is. Looking forward to seeing and hearing the response tomorrow from the media and the SFA and of course at some point the Scottish Parliament saying we have NO issues with sectarianism in Scotland. :rolleyes:

[MWHIBBIES]

Right man for the job or not, we should've absolutely backed Neil Lennon all the way on the sectarian abuse. We should've kicked up **** about it.

It's ****ing disgusting.

[The 90+2]

Sweep sweep sweep. Another bitter Catholic his side lost.

[GreenCastle]

It's great to hear someone say this. The SFA, media and bigot brothers have just got away with sweeping it under the carpet for so long now. Even guys like Boyd who called it out only do so when they are targeted (when has he ever commented on singing by his darling Sevco fans?).

Our game is a disgrace - corruption, sectarianism and incompetence rule in Scottish football and the rest of the clubs need to stand up and say no more.

Last paragraph is so true.

Game needs refreshed. The sectarian issue is more than football though but at least Scottish Football could actually be more responsible and take a stand against it.

It’s swept under the carpet and too many people are scared to bring it up due to fines / fear of being targeted / losing their jobs etc.

[ian cruise]

Last paragraph is so true.

Game needs refreshed. The sectarian issue is more than football though but at least Scottish Football could actually be more responsible and take a stand against it.

It’s swept under the carpet and too many people are scared to bring it up due to fines / fear of being targeted / losing their jobs etc.

It's largely driven by football out here in the west, clean it up, and eradicate it from football and it will slowly dwindle to a genuine minority who are only brave behind locked doors.

[Col2]

Sweep sweep sweep. Another bitter Catholic his side lost.

Yup. Sportsound tomororw night will have Ex Rangers and Celtic players on saying it’s difficult to self police, it is a minority, it’s not just Rangers and Celtic blah blah blah

[cookin_on_gaz]

I watched about 10 minutes of the first half on periscope and virtually every person in the vicinity of the guy filming was hurling sectarian abuse. It was actually sickenening to hear and is definetly not a minority.

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[Spike Mandela]

Petrie et al chose to ‘move on’ instead of shining a huge ****ing spotlight on the SFA and their corrupt ways. Now they can do what they want, dodgy refereeing performances, sectarian singing, financial irregularities just blatant in everybody’s face.

Clark will get censured, none of the issues will be addressed and Rangers progress will continue to be eased by officialdom.

We ALL shat it.

[JOD]

I’m happy he’s brought it up. Bit annoying that he didn’t do the same on Sunday when it was the Celtc fans though. Both as bad as each other and it’s a problem that’ll never get fixed.

Somehow I don't think they called him a F----N B----D Though ?????

[CMurdoch]

It's largely driven by football out here in the west, clean it up, and eradicate it from football and it will slowly dwindle to a genuine minority who are only brave behind locked doors.

I agree with that.
To put this right the Scottish Govt would have to stomp on the Scottish Football authorities and cause them to drive behaviour changes within football grounds in relation to sectarian singing and abuse.
Bottom line is point deductions. Nothing else would work.
You would quickly see the clubs and decent supporters sorting out those who persisted.

[we are hibs]

Everytime I hear him speak it becomes more and more evident why the hibs board didn't give him the job. Stay quiet and move along nothing to see here eh?

[Unseen work]

Although what is being said is clearly wrong, I can’t help but feel it wouldn’t have been mentioned if they won tonight.

Mentioning this to try and deflect from the fact his team got battered tonight?

[monktonharp]

Good to see someone not afraid to call things as they are and not shy away from a difficult subject. Hope Hibs can learn a few lessons here.there is nothing difficult about this subject. It has been a "subject" for far too many years and needs seriously addressed. get with the programme, we need it eradicated from not just football but Scottish society in general. 2019, end bigotry at football, end bigotry in Scotland.

[JimBHibees]

It's largely driven by football out here in the west, clean it up, and eradicate it from football and it will slowly dwindle to a genuine minority who are only brave behind locked doors.

Spot on there was a research report done by an academic from Northern Ireland recently who indicated the lack of action by football authorities re sectarianism mainly perpetuated it throughout society.

[InchHibby]

Good to hear Steve Clark say it how it is, actually, saying what we’ve all been saying for years and for the same number of years the TV, the Media ( West Coast ) the SFA have all been ignoring it and downplaying it to the tune of, it’s only a minority. Well it’s not just a minority, it’s the the biggest percentage of them and they all know that, their problem is, take away the bigotry, take away the sectarianism and the pure hatred and all of a sudden you don’t have the game they all seem to say is the best game in the world. All pure crap.
Worst of all they know how to fix it, there is only two ways, play there games in front of empty stadiums or deduct points, neither of which they will do because most of the media are embroiled in this disgusting behaviour too.
Once again, well said Steve but your wise words won’t change a thing.

[Heisenberg]

Somehow I don't think they called him a F----N B----D Though ?????

They called his player a fat orange *******. Absolutely no difference yet Clarke said he didn’t want to talk about that and wanted to focus on the football.

[Betty Boop]

They called his player a fat orange *******. Absolutely no difference yet Clarke said he didn’t want to talk about that and wanted to focus on the football.

Exactly, hypocrite of the highest order

[green day]

Everytime I hear him speak it becomes more and more evident why the hibs board didn't give him the job. Stay quiet and move along nothing to see here eh?

Dont talk nonsense.

So, instead of Clarke we appointed Neil Lennon, a man known to stay quiet especially in the face of Sectarian abuse?

Lennon said (almost) exactly the same thing Clarke did a few months ago, this was followed up by loads in the press and Dempster defending him on Talksport to that tit Jim White.

This has nothing to do with "the Hibs board" and everything to do with the Glasgow clubs.

[The 90+2]

They called his player a fat orange *******. Absolutely no difference yet Clarke said he didn’t want to talk about that and wanted to focus on the football.

So he’s not allowed to speak on abuse he got personal ally unless he speaks about everyone else?

He wasn’t focusing on the football ripping intoceltic for running on pitch and Damaging seats?

[we are hibs]

Dont talk nonsense.

So, instead of Clarke we appointed Neil Lennon, a man known to stay quiet especially in the face of Sectarian abuse?

Lennon said (almost) exactly the same thing Clarke did a few months ago, this was followed up by loads in the press and Dempster defending him on Talksport to that tit Jim White.

This has nothing to do with "the Hibs board" and everything to do with the Glasgow clubs.

Dempster backed him up on the coin incident. Name a time she or the hibs board have spoken up on the sectarian abuse our previous 2 managers have received? It's pretty evident we don't want to rock the boat and offend particular clubs or people. The media ran a slanderous campaign against hibs fans for months after the cup final and we invited them in for a tour of east mains and a cup of tea ffs

[flash]

Everytime I hear him speak it becomes more and more evident why the hibs board didn't give him the job. Stay quiet and move along nothing to see here eh?

So we appoint Neil Lennon instead? A lightning rod for bigots and idiots.
Good point.

[we are hibs]

So we appoint Neil Lennon instead? A lightning rod for bigots and idiots.
Good point.

Didn't back him up and call out the sectarian abuse as a club though eh?.

[Heisenberg]

So he’s not allowed to speak on abuse he got personal ally unless he speaks about everyone else?

He wasn’t focusing on the football ripping intoceltic for running on pitch and Damaging seats?

I’m just wondering why he didn’t comment on Sunday but went all out last night. I’m very happy that he’s highlighted it but I feel like Celtc always get off lightly in these situations.

[green day]

Dempster backed him up on the coin incident. Name a time she or the hibs board have spoken up on the sectarian abuse our previous 2 managers have received? It's pretty evident we don't want to rock the boat and offend particular clubs or people. The media ran a slanderous campaign against hibs fans for months after the cup final and we invited them in for a tour of east mains and a cup of tea ffs

Jim White asked her if he brought that on himself - she said no :confused:

I am slightly unclear on what you expect and why you think this societal issue (mostly WoS) is in some way a problem that the Hibs board can and should solve, especially as sectarianism and sectarian abuse isnt something that is really an issue at Hibs or with Hibs fans?

For example -



What did the Celtic board do about the constant abuse Lennon got?
What did the Killie board speak out about the abuse Celtic fans gave fatso Boyd?
What will they do about the Clarke episode?


While you have strong opinions about this subject which are valid, laying it at Hibs board door and saying "solve it" is just silly.

[BILLYHIBS]

Right man for the job or not, we should've absolutely backed Neil Lennon all the way on the sectarian abuse. We should've kicked up **** about it.

It's ****ing disgusting.

Spot on!


:top marks

[we are hibs]

Jim White asked her if he brought that on himself - she said no :confused:

I am slightly unclear on what you expect and why you think this societal issue (mostly WoS) is in some way a problem that the Hibs board can and should solve, especially as sectarianism and sectarian abuse isnt something that is really an issue at Hibs or with Hibs fans?

For example -



What did the Celtic board do about the constant abuse Lennon got?
What did the Killie board speak out about the abuse Celtic fans gave fatso Boyd?
What will they do about the Clarke episode?


While you have strong opinions about this subject which are valid, laying it at Hibs board door and saying "solve it" is just silly.

Jim White asked if he brought the coin incident on himself with the way he behaved on the touchline - there was no mention of sectarianism.

I expect us to speak up. I also expect other clubs to speak up. But we can't just sit on our hands and let it continue or wait on someone else taking the lead. The problem isn't going to go away by putting our fingers in our ears. Hibs could've released a statement saying they condemn the sectarian abuse our manager received when it happened. Killie could do the same about Clarke. Simply saying "What do you expect hibs to do on their own?" Isn't going to help. Until clubs start calling it out it will continue and it will continue to be swept under the carpet within a few days of it happening. Our last 2 managers have been subject to disgusting sectarian abuse. We should have spoken up and called it out but we didn't and I don't find it acceptable at all.

[green day]

Jim White asked if he brought the coin incident on himself with the way he behaved on the touchline - there was no mention of sectarianism.

I expect us to speak up. I also expect other clubs to speak up. But we can't just sit on our hands and let it continue or wait on someone else taking the lead. The problem isn't going to go away by putting our fingers in our ears. Hibs could've released a statement saying they condemn the sectarian abuse our manager received when it happened. Killie could do the same about Clarke. Simply saying "What do you expect hibs to do on their own?" Isn't going to help. Until clubs start calling it out it will continue and it will continue to be swept under the carpet within a few days of it happening. Our last 2 managers have been subject to disgusting sectarian abuse. We should have spoken up and called it out but we didn't and I don't find it acceptable at all.

We might just have to disagree on some of this.

Clearly its unacceptable, but equally clearly it is a societal issue - predominantly west of scotland - which sadly has an outlet in some football teams.

I dont think for a minute that Hibs releasing a statement would solve anything.

I also dont believe that its Hibs role to lead a resolution on this as the problem is much more widespread than football.

Cheers

[Onion]

Why is the word sectarian in scare quotes in that headline? Bizarre.

To avoid any suggestion that the BBC actually believe there was any sectarianism, and to attribute the accusation to one individual - Steve Clarke.

Let's be under no illusion, the BBC (a Government backed institution) is a central part of the problem. Far from calling out the bigots as they should, they actively encourage and facilitate disorder, hatred and other aspects of the "special atmosphere" (see what I did there ?) to support their self-interests.

[bingo70]

FWIW I don’t think the club backed Neil Lennon at all in regards to the sectarian abuse he got. The closest we got was when Dempster went on talkSPORT and tried to defend him from the coin throwing incident, even then though I think she was taken aback by the line of questioning and I’m not sure she came across at her best.

It was clearly an issue that effected Lennon but I personally felt we stood back and let it be Lennon vs almost the whole of Scottish football with a couple of exceptions. Imo the very least we should have done is release an official statement backing our manager, same applies to the abuse Stubbs got.

I don’t really know the ins and outs of this strict liability but maybe that was the reason we didn’t want to rock the boat too much?

[Hibernian Verse]

Worth reminding ourselves that UEFA charge clubs for this. However, we can't...reason being that clubs including ours voted for strict liability.

[oneone73]

Worth reminding ourselves that UEFA charge clubs for this. However, we can't...reason being that clubs including ours voted for strict liability.

Quite the opposite, actually.

[Hibernian Verse]

Quite the opposite, actually.Do tell? I've always been lead to believe that.

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[oldbutdim]

Against it. Or clubs responsible for fans behaviours.

[CropleyWasGod]

Do tell? I've always been lead to believe that.

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The clubs voted against strict liability.

[flash]

Didn't back him up and call out the sectarian abuse as a club though eh?.

I reckon if he thought we were hanging him out to dry on this he wouldn't have hung around as long. We will never know the whole story as usual. We are only supporters after all.

[Hibernian Verse]

The clubs voted against strict liability.Sorry, I meant we essentially voted for what we have now.

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[green day]

FWIW I don’t think the club backed Neil Lennon at all in regards to the sectarian abuse he got. The closest we got was when Dempster went on talkSPORT and tried to defend him from the coin throwing incident, even then though I think she was taken aback by the line of questioning and I’m not sure she came across at her best.

It was clearly an issue that effected Lennon but I personally felt we stood back and let it be Lennon vs almost the whole of Scottish football with a couple of exceptions. Imo the very least we should have done is release an official statement backing our manager, same applies to the abuse Stubbs got.

I don’t really know the ins and outs of this strict liability but maybe that was the reason we didn’t want to rock the boat too much?

The spectre of strict liability is certainly why Rangers and Celtic say nothing.

I know a lot of people want us to "do" or "say" something - but imo it can just lead to a cycle of whataboutery.

Example -

Lets say we complain in public about the Hearts fans sectarian abuse?

Their board might agree but perhaps ask why we havent also mentioned about our fans racism in singing the Skacel song?

Neither of these board statements would actually go anywhere to resolving the issues.

[Hibbyradge]

I'm going to guess the F is for Fenian and suggest that the guilty party will number 40,000+

I didn't realise that the F stood for Fenian. :doh:

[The Modfather]

Jim White asked her if he brought that on himself - she said no :confused:

I am slightly unclear on what you expect and why you think this societal issue (mostly WoS) is in some way a problem that the Hibs board can and should solve, especially as sectarianism and sectarian abuse isnt something that is really an issue at Hibs or with Hibs fans?

For example -



What did the Celtic board do about the constant abuse Lennon got?
What did the Killie board speak out about the abuse Celtic fans gave fatso Boyd?
What will they do about the Clarke episode?


While you have strong opinions about this subject which are valid, laying it at Hibs board door and saying "solve it" is just silly.

Why does it have to be all or nothing? If we can’t single handedly eradicate sectarianism we shouldn’t play any part in helping to eradicate it? Whenever we experience it, be it from opposition fans or, despite it being unlikely, our own fans we should come out and condemn it IMO.

Keeping quiet and pretending it doesn’t happen is effectively condoning it IMO. Surely Hibs’ responsibility, if they do want to eradicate it, is to highlight and condemn. Draw attention to what happens which starts debates and then up to the likes of the Scottish Government to take meaningful steps to enforce change.

[we are hibs]

We might just have to disagree on some of this.

Clearly its unacceptable, but equally clearly it is a societal issue - predominantly west of scotland - which sadly has an outlet in some football teams.

I dont think for a minute that Hibs releasing a statement would solve anything.

I also dont believe that its Hibs role to lead a resolution on this as the problem is much more widespread than football.

Cheers


Didn't say releasing a statement would solve anything but it would be a start. Better than completely ignoring it and hoping it goes away though surely?

[Hibbyradge]

Everytime I hear him speak it becomes more and more evident why the hibs board didn't give him the job. Stay quiet and move along nothing to see here eh?

They gave Lennon the job though.

[Paisley Hibby]

Love how the bbc put sectarianism in coma's

I agree with your point. You might want to check the spelling and punctuation though 😉

[brog]

I’m just wondering why he didn’t comment on Sunday but went all out last night. I’m very happy that he’s highlighted it but I feel like Celtc always get off lightly in these situations.

What about if we stopped saying 'what about' every time something likes this happens. If we deal with the major cancer in our society the associated diseases will disappear.

[BILLYHIBS]

They gave Lennon the job though.

Colin Calderwood

[BILLYHIBS]

I didn't realise that the F stood for Fenian. :doh:

Took me a wee while to work that one out :confused:

[easty]

Why is the word sectarian in scare quotes in that headline? Bizarre.

I’ve just seen the Killie penalty incident, and the keepers red card, if anything on the bbc website should be in inverted commas, it’s “referee”.

If that pen incident had been the other way about then the “referee” would’ve pointed to the spot before the rangers player had even hit the ground.

As for the red card...”officials” see rangers player has gone down. Ignore the fact that nobody has seen anything, just send someone off.

[heretoday]

The latest episode in the tawdry story of Scottish football. The only thing to do is hit the old firm in the pocket if their fans continue to flout the laws but we know that won't happen so it's business as usual.

[blackpoolhibs]

You either put up or shut up. Nothing changes if we continue to do the same as we've always done, complaining on a fans site achieves nothing.

The way i see it is, the clubs need to act, but that would cost them money, so its sweep sweep sweep as usual.

We will be having the same conversations next year and the year after and so on.........

[hibsbollah]

Great stuff Steve Clarke.

On the game itself, I just watched the incidents and even for Scotland that's just ridiculous. It's like Muir thinks he can cheat with total impunity. Clear as day penalty for Killie not given. Then Killie keeper sent off for literally nothing. I used to watch a lot of serie a when calciopolli was going on and even Juve would blush at some of these decisions. There are some dodgy ****ers in charge.

[Joe6-2]

I agree with your point. You might want to check the spelling and punctuation though 😉

Apologies, I'm normally a stickler for these things!
Maybe I was just angry as I was typing! Lol

[Hibeesmad]

SFA is as corrupt as they come. The last Old Firm match the ref was speaking to the Rangers players as if they were his best mates, which they probably were. Never seen such a biased bunch in my life.

The incompetence in level of refereeing is ridiculous, you could be lucky to count more than 5 good refereeing performances watching Hibs this season.

[Hibernia&Alba]

You either put up or shut up. Nothing changes if we continue to do the same as we've always done, complaining on a fans site achieves nothing.

The way i see it is, the clubs need to act, but that would cost them money, so its sweep sweep sweep as usual.

We will be having the same conversations next year and the year after and so on.........

Absolutely. As has been said, the clubs voted against strict liability, which is cowardly IMO, and only leaves platitudes. Such is the power of the Old Firm up here, the endemic problem of sectarianism, which a national embarrassment, continues to poison society. Their role in the its perpetuation is enormous.

[Pretty Boy]

Has anyone suggested he brought it on himself yet?

As long as some people try to pass off calling someone a 'fenian *******' or an 'orange *******' as banter or wit the problem will persist. With free speech comes responsibility, it isn't just a right to say what you like without challenge. If someone feels the need to refer to people in the way I have just said then they should be challenged about it over and over until they either get the message or are made to look like the ridiculous creatures they are.

Sadly the whataboutery of Scottish football, and society in general, means it will never happen. The 'other side' will always be worse and that will be justification to ignore the problems staring you in the face.

[Monts]

Absolutely. As has been said, the clubs voted against strict liability, which is cowardly IMO, and only leaves platitudes. Such is the power of the Old Firm up here, the endemic problem of sectarianism, which a national embarrassment, continues to poison society. Their role in the its perpetuation is enormous.
Unfortunately, clubs like ours know that the old firm fans shout the loudest, and have the most influence in the "corridors of power", and rather than being used to sort out a predominantly West coast issue, strict liability would see our clubs getting hammered the hardest.

[Nakedmanoncrack]

To avoid any suggestion that the BBC actually believe there was any sectarianism, and to attribute the accusation to one individual - Steve Clarke.

Let's be under no illusion, the BBC (a Government backed institution) is a central part of the problem. Far from calling out the bigots as they should, they actively encourage and facilitate disorder, hatred and other aspects of the "special atmosphere" (see what I did there ?) to support their self-interests.

:agree:

I don't see them putting ''Anti-semitism'' in quotes during the current ''news'' frenzy.

[Hibbyradge]

Colin Calderwood

Yes, but they employed NL later.

Never mind, it was just my early-ish morning sensitivity 😁

[hibsbollah]

:agree:

I don't see them putting ''Anti-semitism'' in quotes during the current ''news'' frenzy.

:agree:
I can't see an apostrophed "Stephen Lawrence killed in 'racist' attack" headline.
A small detail that tells you a lot.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Unfortunately, clubs like ours know that the old firm fans shout the loudest, and have the most influence in the "corridors of power", and rather than being used to sort out a predominantly West coast issue, strict liability would see our clubs getting hammered the hardest.

Correctly applied, the Old Firm would have a choice under strict liability: behave in a civilised manner or be decimated.

League fixtures - one point deduction for each sectarian/racist/homophobic chant cited.
Cup fixtures - tie forfeited

Let's see how the bigots with big mooths handle that.

[BILLYHIBS]

In his excellent book a Season with Verona Tim Park explains how the Italian FA dealt with the rise of racism and neo facism in Serie A in the early noughties.

They simply said any club that continued with racist facist or political abuse through chanting or banners would simply have their stadiums closed down

This resulted in all right thinking fans shouting down any racist/political chants and pulling down any racist political homophobic banners

It worked

[Bostonhibby]

:agree:

I don't see them putting ''Anti-semitism'' in quotes during the current ''news'' frenzy.BBC Scotland runs itself along similar lines to the Scottish Football authorities. They have allegiances driven by the make up of the people they employ, you could generously call the bias favouritism but it's institutionalised and is deep rooted. Sadly it's not going away any time soon.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[Diclonius]

In his excellent book a Season with Verona Tim Park explains how the Italian FA dealt with the rise of racism and neo facism in Serie A in the early noughties.

They simply said any club that continued with racist facist or political abuse through chanting or banners would simply have their stadiums closed down

This resulted in all right thinking fans shouting down any racist/political chants and pulling down any racist political homophobic banners

It worked

If this was implemented here:

"EASTER ROAD has been closed to spectators ahead of Hibs' clash with Rangers on Sunday."

"TYNECASTLE will host no fans as Hearts face Celtic due to allegations of sectarian chanting from the Jam Tarts in prior matches."

"THE SFA have announced that Pittodrie will be closed for the remainder of the season following allegations of Dons fans chanting "go home ya Huns" in a recent fixture against Rangers. This is expected to derail Aberdeen's title bid, with them currently 2 points clear at the top."

"HAMPDEN PARK will be given entirely to Rangers fans ahead of the Scottish Cup Final with Hibs, the SFA have announced. The national body have explained the decision is down to reports of sectarian chanting in the semi-final win over Celtic."

Meanwhile 50k fans sing whatever they want at Ibrox and Parkhead every other week.

[Hibernia&Alba]

If this was implemented here:

"EASTER ROAD has been closed to spectators ahead of Hibs' clash with Rangers on Sunday."
"TYNECASTLE will host no fans as Hearts face Celtic due to allegations of sectarian chanting from the Jam Tarts in prior matches."

"THE SFA have announced that Pittodrie will be closed for the remainder of the season following allegations of Dons fans chanting "go home ya Huns" in a recent fixture against Rangers. This is expected to derail Aberdeen's title bid, with them currently 2 points clear at the top."

"HAMPDEN PARK will be given entirely to Rangers fans ahead of the Scottish Cup Final with Hibs, the SFA have announced. The national body have explained the decision is down to reports of sectarian chanting in the semi-final win over Celtic."

Meanwhile 50k fans sing whatever they want at Ibrox and Parkhead every other week.

Or you could just ban the away fans, due to poor conduct. See how they cope with that, too.

Fines, point deductions, banned from the cups, stadium closures, no away support. That or yet more empty words from the authorities.

[BILLYHIBS]

I’ve just seen the Killie penalty incident, and the keepers red card, if anything on the bbc website should be in inverted commas, it’s “referee”.

If that pen incident had been the other way about then the “referee” would’ve pointed to the spot before the rangers player had even hit the ground.

As for the red card...”officials” see rangers player has gone down. Ignore the fact that nobody has seen anything, just send someone off.
:wtf:

Just watched this incident on YouTube

It is a shocker

Hun corner

Keeper stretches as Keepers do as if to touch his crossbar and get his bearings for incoming corner

Kamara standing beside the goalie goes down as if shot by a sniper

Straight red :confused:

Minimal contact if any

Only person that thought there was any infringement was the Ref

Killie to appeal

Why no penalty awarded if dismissed for violent conduct?

[HibeeHibernian4]

I’m happy he’s brought it up. Bit annoying that he didn’t do the same on Sunday when it was the Celtc fans though. Both as bad as each other and it’s a problem that’ll never get fixed.

Not in the business of defending Celtic, but they really, really aren't ''both as bad as each other".

[Diclonius]

Not in the business of defending Celtic, but they really, really aren't ''both as bad as each other".

Celtic are equally complicit in the fact that they categorically refuse to accept their part of the problem.

[BILLYHIBS]

If this was implemented here:

"EASTER ROAD has been closed to spectators ahead of Hibs' clash with Rangers on Sunday."

"TYNECASTLE will host no fans as Hearts face Celtic due to allegations of sectarian chanting from the Jam Tarts in prior matches."

"THE SFA have announced that Pittodrie will be closed for the remainder of the season following allegations of Dons fans chanting "go home ya Huns" in a recent fixture against Rangers. This is expected to derail Aberdeen's title bid, with them currently 2 points clear at the top."

"HAMPDEN PARK will be given entirely to Rangers fans ahead of the Scottish Cup Final with Hibs, the SFA have announced. The national body have explained the decision is down to reports of sectarian chanting in the semi-final win over Celtic."

Meanwhile 50k fans sing whatever they want at Ibrox and Parkhead every other week.

Financial implication

No need for fines

Clubs would be unable to survive unless they get their own houses in order

[CropleyWasGod]

:wtf:

Just watched this incident on YouTube

It is a shocker

Hun corner

Keeper stretches as Keepers do as if to touch his crossbar and get his bearings for incoming corner

Kamara standing beside the goalie goes down as if shot by a sniper

Straight red :confused:

Minimal contact if any

Only person that thought there was any infringement was the Ref

Killie to appeal

Why no penalty awarded if dismissed for violent conduct?

Maybe have a look at this. Looks like a red to me.

https://twitter.com/IbroxChat/status/1098513212771840001




BTW, couldn't award a penalty as the ball was dead at the time.

[Heisenberg]

Certainly looks like the Killie keeper deliberately elbows him. Red card seems right to me.

[BILLYHIBS]

Maybe have a look at this. Looks like a red to me.

https://twitter.com/IbroxChat/status/1098513212771840001




BTW, couldn't award a penalty as the ball was dead at the time.

I stand corrected

Just watched your link on another thread

Red card

:bye:

[Diclonius]

Maybe have a look at this. Looks like a red to me.

https://twitter.com/IbroxChat/status/1098513212771840001




BTW, couldn't award a penalty as the ball was dead at the time.

Tell that to Alan Freeland.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/scot_prem/7165323.stm

:greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

Tell that to Alan Freeland.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/scot_prem/7165323.stm

:greengrin

I just did....

Neilson had been waiting to take a throw-in following the red card but the incident had occurred when the ball was in play.

[BILLYHIBS]

Maybe have a look at this. Looks like a red to me.

https://twitter.com/IbroxChat/status/1098513212771840001




BTW, couldn't award a penalty as the ball was dead at the time.

In my defence this was my first view of the incident

They say HibsTV is bad! :greengrin

https://youtu.be/1MpnYnyCSic

[PatHead]

Maybe have a look at this. Looks like a red to me.

https://twitter.com/IbroxChat/status/1098513212771840001





BTW, couldn't award a penalty as the ball was dead at the time.

Seem to remember Hibs getting a penalty against Strasbourg when someone punched Ally McLeod while waiting for a corner. Guy was sent off as well.

[HibeeHibernian4]

Celtic are equally complicit in the fact that they categorically refuse to accept their part of the problem.

Complicit? Yes. Equally complicit? No chance, in my opinion.

They are part of the problem, you're right about that. But at the moment, their level of sectarianism is about on par with Hearts'. They've (recently) ramped up the 'orange' this and 'orange' that. Before that, however, Celtic almost never sang anything that was openly sectarian.

People conflate two separate things here, Celtic sing about proscribed terrorist groups. Are they complete tools for doing so? Yes, of course. Are they being sectarian by doing so? No. Some of the most influential members in Irish nationalist history were protestants (Parnell and Childers, for example). And while there were sectarian undertones to some of the Troubles, it was not the primary factor. Well, at least until the UVF got involved and started deciding that catholic = fenian = IRA terrorist.

Rangers used to actually have the high ground in terms of not singing about proscribed terrorist groups, but they have brought some of the older songs back, and now regularly sing about them coming down the road with the UVF and about the UDR Four. So they've completely forfeited whatever sense of superiority they had in that regard.

Here is the fundamental difference, Rangers' songbook is littered with sectarianism:
- "up to our knees in fenian blood"
- "we hate Celtic, fenian *******s"
- "cheer up Alan Stubbs/Neil Lennon, oh what can it be, to a sad fenian *******"
- "Dundee, Hamilton, **** the Pope and the Vatican"
- "**** the Pope and the IRA"
- "we hate Catholics, everybody hates, Roman Catholics."

It is wholly disingenuous to pretend that Celtic's songbook is remotely as bad in that regard. They (occasionally) sing song number three about Warburton/Levein/Gerrard, but here's where the distinction lies. Gerrard isn't "Orange". Gerrard is from a Catholic background. With Rangers, they know and care about which of their opposing managers are "fenians". Derek McInnes and Craig Levein are never told to cheer up, for example. It is reserved for known Catholics - which for the uneducated Ibrox masses usually means "they played for Celtic".

I came to the conclusion that the religious divide in Scotland does not mean the same thing to Celtic fans as it does to Rangers. The dynamic of power between Protestants and Catholics in this country means that many Rangers fans see Celtic (and Hibs') existence as a personal affront to their way of life and their general dominance. Scottish Catholics were, for many decades, subjugated by many and treated as second class citizens. It is, to an extent, the same argument about whether black people can be racist towards white people. You would have to first remove the context of centuries of slavery and hegemony before you could even begin to answer it.

I wouldn't have had any objection to Clarke calling out the Celtic fans for their own sectarianism on Sunday, by the way. They need to curb theirs too, but it is in no way comparable to Rangers'. And until the authorities realise that there is one primary offending party, they will forever be trying to appease both sides. They need to grow some balls and start clamping down on the root cause of this, and that is the superiority culture attached with both Rangers in a socio-political/religious sense and, maybe above all, the Orange Order.

[hibsbollah]

Maybe have a look at this. Looks like a red to me.

https://twitter.com/IbroxChat/status/1098513212771840001




BTW, couldn't award a penalty as the ball was dead at the time.

Very very difficult to spot that at the time. You have to ask yourself, at Ibrox, bearing in mind the distance between ref and incident, would be have given it the other way? That's the reality.

[CropleyWasGod]

Very very difficult to spot that at the time. You have to ask yourself, at Ibrox, bearing in mind the distance between ref and incident, would be have given it the other way? That's the reality.

I am guessing that the fourth official, or the linesman, spotted it.

[Crazyhorse]

Very very difficult to spot that at the time. You have to ask yourself, at Ibrox, bearing in mind the distance between ref and incident, would be have given it the other way? That's the reality.

That's probably true you only have to look at the stonewall penalty given at the other end. But in the end, with a group of officials clearly itching to ensure the 'right' result for their friends in blue, this was a dumb action by the keeper.

[BullsCloseHibs]

i like this guy :aok:

Me too. He tells it how it is. Like him a lot now.:agree:

[brog]

Alan Muir didn't give us a penalty when a Falkirk player tucked the ball under his arm & walked out the box with it. After clearing the ball he then deliberately assaulted SJM while the ball was about 30 yards away. No card was given. By his own exalted standards Muir was a beacon of light last night.

[Crazyhorse]

If this was implemented here:

"EASTER ROAD has been closed to spectators ahead of Hibs' clash with Rangers on Sunday."

"TYNECASTLE will host no fans as Hearts face Celtic due to allegations of sectarian chanting from the Jam Tarts in prior matches."

"THE SFA have announced that Pittodrie will be closed for the remainder of the season following allegations of Dons fans chanting "go home ya Huns" in a recent fixture against Rangers. This is expected to derail Aberdeen's title bid, with them currently 2 points clear at the top."

"HAMPDEN PARK will be given entirely to Rangers fans ahead of the Scottish Cup Final with Hibs, the SFA have announced. The national body have explained the decision is down to reports of sectarian chanting in the semi-final win over Celtic."

Meanwhile 50k fans sing whatever they want at Ibrox and Parkhead every other week.

The alternative is to do nothing. Changing the mentality in Scotland around sectarianism and bigotry will be a huge challenge and might be disruptive to football (where it most publically manifests itself) but it is a price worth paying. It has clearly historically benefitted the two sectarian clubs but unless one is concerned about the impact on them I can't see what the argument for putting off action to tackle it is.

[Stevie Reid]

I am guessing that the fourth official, or the linesman, spotted it.

Referee seems to check with the linesman that it's a red before he issued it. It is an elbow to the face, and if it were Bachmann on a Hibs player we would all be wanting him off.

Penalty incident isn't a stonewaller either, if it were a Hibs attacker I'd claim for it, if it were a Hibs defender and it were given, I'd be raging - would be very soft.

We have some total clowns refereeing in Scotland, but I think those two incidents were called correctly last night.

[Paisley Hibby]

Not in the business of defending Celtic, but they really, really aren't ''both as bad as each other".

You better get your tin hat on 😉

One is a bad as the other if you ask me.

[OstKurve Hibs]

Michael Stewart saying it's a hard thing to police the sectarian chanting, not if the sfa grow some bawsand close a section of the stadium. Won't ever happen tho

[Argylehibby]

Allegedly, a west of Scotland football fan.

Based on the competition was it not a West of Scotland Scottish Cup fan?

[J-C]

Maybe have a look at this. Looks like a red to me.

https://twitter.com/IbroxChat/status/1098513212771840001




BTW, couldn't award a penalty as the ball was dead at the time.


1st time I've seen it from that angle and it's a straight red right enough, what I don't understand is why it's not a penalty? is it because the ball is not yet in play awaiting a corner, so the only course the ref can take is send off the keeper, then carry on with play from the corner.

[CropleyWasGod]

1st time I've seen it from that angle and it's a straight red right enough, what I don't understand is why it's not a penalty? is it because the ball is not yet in play awaiting a corner, so the only course the ref can take is send off the keeper, then carry on with play from the corner.

That's how I understand it. :agree:

[Mick O'Rourke]

You better get your tin hat on ��

One is a bad as the other if you ask me.

I fail to see why HFCE would need a tin hat.

His post at #107 here is worth reading,if you really believe that"one is a bad as the other"

Although you don't say what the other is "bad" at :greengrin

If you are referring to bigotry /sectarianism.

There is no comparison.

None whatsoever.

[Sylar]

Correctly applied, the Old Firm would have a choice under strict liability: behave in a civilised manner or be decimated.

League fixtures - one point deduction for each sectarian/racist/homophobic chant cited.
Cup fixtures - tie forfeited

Let's see how the bigots with big mooths handle that.

That would be putting lipstick on a pig.

The issue of sectarianism and the behaviour of the Old Firm fans goes well beyond the 90 minutes every weekend.

It's only by destroying sectarianism entirely from Scottish culture that any change will be enacted with effect. I can't see that in my lifetime.

Until then, we're going to continue hearing about fenian and orange *******s, the IRA, the UVF, papists, Big Jock and his knowledge, Palestine, Israel, Bobby Sands, the Pope...

[Hibernia&Alba]

That would be putting lipstick on a pig.

The issue of sectarianism and the behaviour of the Old Firm fans goes well beyond the 90 minutes every weekend.

It's only by destroying sectarianism entirely from Scottish culture that any change will be enacted with effect. I can't see that in my lifetime.

Until then, we're going to continue hearing about fenian and orange *******s, the IRA, the UVF, papists, Big Jock and his knowledge, Palestine, Israel, Bobby Sands, the Pope...

Of course the issue is wider than football, but football must play its role in tackling the problem. SFA/SFL are only responsible for the game, but they are complicit in ignoring the problem. The football authorities could, if they wished, do far more in their area of responsibility.

[Peevemor]

In France, closed doors matches (along with fines) are imposed when spectators are out of order. A couple of weeks ago, Marseille had to play Bordeaux behind closed doors after someone chucked a flare on the pitch at a previous match.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_SeE4lmcd0

Also Lille v Amiens at the end of last season.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_-jbp6VE5E

In October of last year, the French League closed one of Montpelier's end stands for 3 matches (1 suspended) as a punishment for supporter misbehaviour.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsnWD-K-O_g

I think similar sanctions would do the trick in Scotland.

[hughio]

That would be putting lipstick on a pig.

The issue of sectarianism and the behaviour of the Old Firm fans goes well beyond the 90 minutes every weekend.

It's only by destroying sectarianism entirely from Scottish culture that any change will be enacted with effect. I can't see that in my lifetime.

Until then, we're going to continue hearing about fenian and orange *******s, the IRA, the UVF, papists, Big Jock and his knowledge, Palestine, Israel, Bobby Sands, the Pope...

Actually I disagree strongly with this notion that "It's NOT football's problem.Wider issue for society"etc.
It bloomin' well IS!
It's the only environment your hear this stuff in.
It's the festering bile you get from mindless bigots who go to football games with their "folk songs"(copyright Donald Finlay QC) UVF and IRA flags that fuel the whole thing IMO.
Nowhere else in society does this exist.
There may be differences in the dwindling numbers attending Church on Sundays and certain bigots will go on about schools but that is rally not an issue.Both State and Catholic schools give a balanced broadly Christian education to children and do not indoctrinate them in bigotry.
Football nurtures maintains and encourages this.The Old Firm and the SFA condone it.Money and vested interests don't want any change.

PS Never a sending off and clear penalty!
refs are a different issue (aren't they?!)

[Sylar]

Actually I disagree strongly with this notion that "It's NOT football's problem.Wider issue for society"etc.
It bloomin' well IS!
It's the only environment your hear this stuff in.
It's the festering bile you get from mindless bigots who go to football games with their "folk songs"(copyright Donald Finlay QC) UVF and IRA flags that fuel the whole thing IMO.
Nowhere else in society does this exist.
There may be differences in the dwindling numbers attending Church on Sundays and certain bigots will go on about schools but that is rally not an issue.Both State and Catholic schools give a balanced broadly Christian education to children and do not indoctrinate them in bigotry.
Football nurtures maintains and encourages this.The Old Firm and the SFA condone it.Money and vested interests don't want any change.

PS Never a sending off and clear penalty!
refs are a different issue (aren't they?!)

You're having a laugh, aren't you?

Have you visited any town in West Central Scotland recently? This stuff is still there at the surface, even in professional walks of life. Folk might wrap a flag or colour around it for posterity's sake, but sectarianism and faux-political assocations are rife in certain communities. There are platforms where it's most openly "performed", and many of these performances are often associated with football, but the continued popularity of Orange and Republican walks that bring Glasgow (and satellite towns) to a halt through the summer suggest this extends well beyond the locales of Parkhead and Ibrox.

Schools ARE a problem - not in the sense that faith schools foster this type of bigotry or vice versa for State schools etc, but find me a playground or classroom anywhere in the Central Belt where kids aren't subject to abuse that has a religious tint. Christ, I'm still asked what school I went to as a kid as a proxy for working out if I'm a Tim or a Hun. Never mind that I finished school 15 years ago and have spent the remainder of that time working my way through 3 universities and now work in the HE sector - my school is still a consideration.

The legacy of sectarianism is engrained in regions of Scottish culture - why else do you think we get random Aberdeen, Kilmarnock or Motherwell fans calling us Fenian *******s, or Rangers/Hearts Orange *******s? This **** goes beyond footballing allegiance, but I DO agree with you that the Scottish football authorities and clubs have a vested interest - Rangers and Celtc built their footballing empires on this ideology and have no interest in attacking their base.

[Ozyhibby]

Don’t worry everyone, the SFA are going to sort it all out.
https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/news/scottish-fa-statement-on-unacceptable-conduct/?rid=13929



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lapsedhibee]

The Rangers have made a statement saying unacceptable behaviour will not be tolerated at Ibrox.

Thank goodness they're taking a firm line.

[Hibernia&Alba]

The Rangers have made a statement saying unacceptable behaviour will not be tolerated at Ibrox.

Thank goodness they're taking a firm line.

Taking banality to new heights. So, we can assume they will be handing out thousands of banning orders?

[hughio]

You're having a laugh, aren't you?

Have you visited any town in West Central Scotland recently? This stuff is still there at the surface, even in professional walks of life. Folk might wrap a flag or colour around it for posterity's sake, but sectarianism and faux-political assocations are rife in certain communities. There are platforms where it's most openly "performed", and many of these performances are often associated with football, but the continued popularity of Orange and Republican walks that bring Glasgow (and satellite towns) to a halt through the summer suggest this extends well beyond the locales of Parkhead and Ibrox.

Schools ARE a problem - not in the sense that faith schools foster this type of bigotry or vice versa for State schools etc, but find me a playground or classroom anywhere in the Central Belt where kids aren't subject to abuse that has a religious tint. Christ, I'm still asked what school I went to as a kid as a proxy for working out if I'm a Tim or a Hun. Never mind that I finished school 15 years ago and have spent the remainder of that time working my way through 3 universities and now work in the HE sector - my school is still a consideration.

The legacy of sectarianism is engrained in regions of Scottish culture - why else do you think we get random Aberdeen, Kilmarnock or Motherwell fans calling us Fenian *******s, or Rangers/Hearts Orange *******s? This **** goes beyond footballing allegiance, but I DO agree with you that the Scottish football authorities and clubs have a vested interest - Rangers and Celtc built their footballing empires on this ideology and have no interest in attacking their base.

Its not funny and I wasn't joking.
What came first though; the chicken or the egg?

Undoubtably there's been an historic schism but
I am saying "the fitba" fosters and incubates the majority the problem.It is the vehicle for its continuation.
Yes, I've seen west central Scotland the marches etc.Ive seen the red white and blue fences in the schemes.Quite pathetic really.I cannot say Ive seen much evidence of it in my professional life though.that would be scorned by most intelligent folk.
The bigger evil and by far the most influential factor in the continuation of this mindset is The Ugly Sisters.
In my lifetime so many progressive changes have occurred for women in particular;gay rights; anti fascism;racism etc .Yet this particular brand of anti-deluvian behaviour is tolerated only here in Scotland and is fostered by the collusion between the big two and their cohorts in the SFA.

[HoboHarry]

Don’t worry everyone, the SFA are going to sort it all out.
https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/news/scottish-fa-statement-on-unacceptable-conduct/?rid=13929



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Meaningless guff and nothing but nothing will come of it....

[Ozyhibby]

Meaningless guff and nothing but nothing will come of it....

I wonder how many similar statements they have released over the years while taking absolutely no action. It’s another free pass for the bigots.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[southsider]

Meaningless guff and nothing but nothing will come of it....
Aye, tho even if strict liability were introduced the SFA would fine (say) Dumbarton £10,000 and shut one stand at Alloa for 2 matches. If the clubs don't like what the OF fans sing at their grounds then don't sell them any tickets. Whilst Celtic fans sing pro-IRA guff the pure racist/sectarian filth from the stand at Ibrox beggers belief. I wrote to the SFA about the treatment of Alan Stubbs and the letter was ignored. They replied to my follow up letter saying "my complaint was being looked into". Heard nothing since.

[lapsedhibee]

Aye, tho even if strict liability were introduced the SFA would fine (say) Dumbarton £10,000 and shut one stand at Alloa for 2 matches. If the clubs don't like what the OF fans sing at their grounds then don't sell them any tickets. Whilst Celtic fans sing pro-IRA guff the pure racist/sectarian filth from the stand at Ibrox beggers belief. I wrote to the SFA about the treatment of Alan Stubbs and the letter was ignored. They replied to my follow up letter saying "my complaint was being looked into". Heard nothing since.

Brought it on himself, played for Celtc.

[Diclonius]

Aye, tho even if strict liability were introduced the SFA would fine (say) Dumbarton £10,000 and shut one stand at Alloa for 2 matches. If the clubs don't like what the OF fans sing at their grounds then don't sell them any tickets. Whilst Celtic fans sing pro-IRA guff the pure racist/sectarian filth from the stand at Ibrox beggers belief. I wrote to the SFA about the treatment of Alan Stubbs and the letter was ignored. They replied to my follow up letter saying "my complaint was being looked into". Heard nothing since.

Can we actually ban away fans from attending ER if there is a valid reason for it, or would we get done for it?

[The Modfather]

Complicit? Yes. Equally complicit? No chance, in my opinion.

They are part of the problem, you're right about that. But at the moment, their level of sectarianism is about on par with Hearts'. They've (recently) ramped up the 'orange' this and 'orange' that. Before that, however, Celtic almost never sang anything that was openly sectarian.

People conflate two separate things here, Celtic sing about proscribed terrorist groups. Are they complete tools for doing so? Yes, of course. Are they being sectarian by doing so? No. Some of the most influential members in Irish nationalist history were protestants (Parnell and Childers, for example). And while there were sectarian undertones to some of the Troubles, it was not the primary factor. Well, at least until the UVF got involved and started deciding that catholic = fenian = IRA terrorist.

Rangers used to actually have the high ground in terms of not singing about proscribed terrorist groups, but they have brought some of the older songs back, and now regularly sing about them coming down the road with the UVF and about the UDR Four. So they've completely forfeited whatever sense of superiority they had in that regard.

Here is the fundamental difference, Rangers' songbook is littered with sectarianism:
- "up to our knees in fenian blood"
- "we hate Celtic, fenian *******s"
- "cheer up Alan Stubbs/Neil Lennon, oh what can it be, to a sad fenian *******"
- "Dundee, Hamilton, **** the Pope and the Vatican"
- "**** the Pope and the IRA"
- "we hate Catholics, everybody hates, Roman Catholics."

It is wholly disingenuous to pretend that Celtic's songbook is remotely as bad in that regard. They (occasionally) sing song number three about Warburton/Levein/Gerrard, but here's where the distinction lies. Gerrard isn't "Orange". Gerrard is from a Catholic background. With Rangers, they know and care about which of their opposing managers are "fenians". Derek McInnes and Craig Levein are never told to cheer up, for example. It is reserved for known Catholics - which for the uneducated Ibrox masses usually means "they played for Celtic".

I came to the conclusion that the religious divide in Scotland does not mean the same thing to Celtic fans as it does to Rangers. The dynamic of power between Protestants and Catholics in this country means that many Rangers fans see Celtic (and Hibs') existence as a personal affront to their way of life and their general dominance. Scottish Catholics were, for many decades, subjugated by many and treated as second class citizens. It is, to an extent, the same argument about whether black people can be racist towards white people. You would have to first remove the context of centuries of slavery and hegemony before you could even begin to answer it.

I wouldn't have had any objection to Clarke calling out the Celtic fans for their own sectarianism on Sunday, by the way. They need to curb theirs too, but it is in no way comparable to Rangers'. And until the authorities realise that there is one primary offending party, they will forever be trying to appease both sides. They need to grow some balls and start clamping down on the root cause of this, and that is the superiority culture attached with both Rangers in a socio-political/religious sense and, maybe above all, the Orange Order.

Rangers fans celebrate their sectarianism more openly and seem to revel in it’s notoriety. Celtic fans are more cute than their blue equivalents but it’s by no means a one sided sectarian rivalry.

It’s too simplistic to say Rangers fans sing songs about fennian this and fenian that while Celtic fans songs technically aren’t sectarian. For both supports the root cause for what they sing is sectarianism. Are we to believe that when Celtic fans sing about the Queen etc it is merely an anti royal sentiment? Let’s be honest, the Queen equates to Protestantism in a lot of Celtic fans eyes. That’s just an example of the kind of point I’m trying to make.

[The Green Goblin]

Great stuff Steve Clarke.

On the game itself, I just watched the incidents and even for Scotland that's just ridiculous. It's like Muir thinks he can cheat with total impunity. Clear as day penalty for Killie not given. Then Killie keeper sent off for literally nothing. I used to watch a lot of serie a when calciopolli was going on and even Juve would blush at some of these decisions. There are some dodgy ****ers in charge.

Agree. I thought SC was spot on. We must have the deafest officials, media and beaks in the world if (as they claim) they can’t hear tens of thousands of those cretins singing their pish game after game, week in week out, year after year. As for the ref....as you said, even for Scotland, that was embarrassing. It really makes you wonder about what goes on.

[hughio]

Complicit? Yes. Equally complicit? No chance, in my opinion.

They are part of the problem, you're right about that. But at the moment, their level of sectarianism is about on par with Hearts'. They've (recently) ramped up the 'orange' this and 'orange' that. Before that, however, Celtic almost never sang anything that was openly sectarian.

People conflate two separate things here, Celtic sing about proscribed terrorist groups. Are they complete tools for doing so? Yes, of course. Are they being sectarian by doing so? No. Some of the most influential members in Irish nationalist history were protestants (Parnell and Childers, for example). And while there were sectarian undertones to some of the Troubles, it was not the primary factor. Well, at least until the UVF got involved and started deciding that catholic = fenian = IRA terrorist.

Rangers used to actually have the high ground in terms of not singing about proscribed terrorist groups, but they have brought some of the older songs back, and now regularly sing about them coming down the road with the UVF and about the UDR Four. So they've completely forfeited whatever sense of superiority they had in that regard.

Here is the fundamental difference, Rangers' songbook is littered with sectarianism:
- "up to our knees in fenian blood"
- "we hate Celtic, fenian *******s"
- "cheer up Alan Stubbs/Neil Lennon, oh what can it be, to a sad fenian *******"
- "Dundee, Hamilton, **** the Pope and the Vatican"
- "**** the Pope and the IRA"
- "we hate Catholics, everybody hates, Roman Catholics."

It is wholly disingenuous to pretend that Celtic's songbook is remotely as bad in that regard. They (occasionally) sing song number three about Warburton/Levein/Gerrard, but here's where the distinction lies. Gerrard isn't "Orange". Gerrard is from a Catholic background. With Rangers, they know and care about which of their opposing managers are "fenians". Derek McInnes and Craig Levein are never told to cheer up, for example. It is reserved for known Catholics - which for the uneducated Ibrox masses usually means "they played for Celtic".

I came to the conclusion that the religious divide in Scotland does not mean the same thing to Celtic fans as it does to Rangers. The dynamic of power between Protestants and Catholics in this country means that many Rangers fans see Celtic (and Hibs') existence as a personal affront to their way of life and their general dominance. Scottish Catholics were, for many decades, subjugated by many and treated as second class citizens. It is, to an extent, the same argument about whether black people can be racist towards white people. You would have to first remove the context of centuries of slavery and hegemony before you could even begin to answer it.

I wouldn't have had any objection to Clarke calling out the Celtic fans for their own sectarianism on Sunday, by the way. They need to curb theirs too, but it is in no way comparable to Rangers'. And until the authorities realise that there is one primary offending party, they will forever be trying to appease both sides. They need to grow some balls and start clamping down on the root cause of this, and that is the superiority culture attached with both Rangers in a socio-political/religious sense and, maybe above all, the Orange Order.

Erudite post if I may says so.That "superiority culture"is something I have identified and I agree as a protestant its the most obviously distasteful aspect of the equation

[Brizo]

Its not funny and I wasn't joking.
What came first though; the chicken or the egg?

Undoubtably there's been an historic schism but
I am saying "the fitba" fosters and incubates the majority the problem.It is the vehicle for its continuation.
Yes, I've seen west central Scotland the marches etc.Ive seen the red white and blue fences in the schemes.Quite pathetic really.I cannot say Ive seen much evidence of it in my professional life though.that would be scorned by most intelligent folk.
The bigger evil and by far the most influential factor in the continuation of this mindset is The Ugly Sisters.
In my lifetime so many progressive changes have occurred for women in particular;gay rights; anti fascism;racism etc .Yet this particular brand of anti-deluvian behaviour is tolerated only here in Scotland and is fostered by the collusion between the big two and their cohorts in the SFA.

Cities like Liverpool and Manchester have very similar demographics to west central Scotland with large historic Irish Catholic and Irish Protestant immigration. They also have faith schools , Orange Lodges and Knights of St Columbus. They also had political and street violence sectarianism in the first half of the 20th century.

Sectarianism has all but disappeared in these cities so you have to ask why it continues in west central Scotland. Like the above poster im convinced the OF perpetuate a division which in an essentially secular Scotland is as much to do with tribal labels as any actual religious beliefs. The old "joke" are you a Catholic atheist or a Protestant atheist applies to the vast bulk of present day OF fans. That means it should be easier now than at any time for the OF to take stronger action but they know its these labels that drags the knuckle draggers through the turnstiles. And of course the football authorities and bulk of the media are complicit in this state of affairs refusing to speak out or take any effective action against the OF.

[HibeeHibernian4]

Rangers fans celebrate their sectarianism more openly and seem to revel in it’s notoriety. Celtic fans are more cute than their blue equivalents but it’s by no means a one sided sectarian rivalry.

It’s too simplistic to say Rangers fans sing songs about fennian this and fenian that while Celtic fans songs technically aren’t sectarian. For both supports the root cause for what they sing is sectarianism. Are we to believe that when Celtic fans sing about the Queen etc it is merely an anti royal sentiment? Let’s be honest, the Queen equates to Protestantism in a lot of Celtic fans eyes. That’s just an example of the kind of point I’m trying to make.

I think the problem is that we, as fans of one of the other 40 clubs in the SPFL, aren’t in their heads, so we’ll never know exactly what they’re thinking when they sing the songs they sing.

I am republican myself, I dislike the monarchy as a concept greatly and would be delighted if it were abolished tomorrow. There are lots of Celtic fans who will share this view. For some, you are right, it will be seeing the Queen as a figurehead of a (Protestant) establishment and therefore singing unsavoury things about her.

But again I come back to the punching up vs punching down dynamic of Protestants and Catholics in this country that I observe as neutrally as I can, bring an atheist myself. Is singing “**** the Queen” crass, pointless and unnecessary? Yes, for sure.

However, consider who is being ‘targeted’ in that sectarianism there. The (decorative) Head of State in one of the most powerful countries in history. When Rangers sing about fenian *******s, hating Roman Catholics and especially being up to their knees in fenian blood, they are targeting a minority in this country who suffered persecution spanning decades upon decades.

I’m not trying to explain away Celtic’s sectarianism, it is bad and they need to be doing a lot more than they’re currently doing to stamp it out. However, the ‘two teams as bad as each other’ myth perpetuates sectarianism in Scotland, at least in my opinion. It indirectly validates Rangers’ (far worse) sectarianism, because they are told that Celtic are as bad, when they objectively just aren’t.

[hughio]

I think the problem is that we, as fans of one of the other 40 clubs in the SPFL, aren’t in their heads, so we’ll never know exactly what they’re thinking when they sing the songs they sing.

I am republican myself, I dislike the monarchy as a concept greatly and would be delighted if it were abolished tomorrow. There are lots of Celtic fans who will share this view. For some, you are right, it will be seeing the Queen as a figurehead of a (Protestant) establishment and therefore singing unsavoury things about her.

But again I come back to the punching up vs punching down dynamic of Protestants and Catholics in this country that I observe as neutrally as I can, bring an atheist myself. Is singing “**** the Queen” crass, pointless and unnecessary? Yes, for sure.

However, consider who is being ‘targeted’ in that sectarianism there. The (decorative) Head of State in one of the most powerful countries in history. When Rangers sing about fenian *******s, hating Roman Catholics and especially being up to their knees in fenian blood, they are targeting a minority in this country who suffered persecution spanning decades upon decades.

I’m not trying to explain away Celtic’s sectarianism, it is bad and they need to be doing a lot more than they’re currently doing to stamp it out. However, the ‘two teams as bad as each other’ myth perpetuates sectarianism in Scotland, at least in my opinion. It indirectly validates Rangers’ (far worse) sectarianism, because they are told that Celtic are as bad, when they objectively just aren’t.
Ok that's interesting.Rangers are worse.You might be right.I'm thinking about it overnight.
You rightly say we will never know exactly what's in their heads.
I'd say its akin to a Punch and Judy show,mock theatre and a lot of habitual unthinking father-following.
Must say when I first heard the Rangers en mass singing No one likes us etc ringing up between the tenements behind Easter Rd many years ago it made me nauseus.The self-congratulatory shameless ignorant bile of it.Have never felt that from the Celtc hoards.

[The Modfather]

I think the problem is that we, as fans of one of the other 40 clubs in the SPFL, aren’t in their heads, so we’ll never know exactly what they’re thinking when they sing the songs they sing.

I am republican myself, I dislike the monarchy as a concept greatly and would be delighted if it were abolished tomorrow. There are lots of Celtic fans who will share this view. For some, you are right, it will be seeing the Queen as a figurehead of a (Protestant) establishment and therefore singing unsavoury things about her.

But again I come back to the punching up vs punching down dynamic of Protestants and Catholics in this country that I observe as neutrally as I can, bring an atheist myself. Is singing “**** the Queen” crass, pointless and unnecessary? Yes, for sure.

However, consider who is being ‘targeted’ in that sectarianism there. The (decorative) Head of State in one of the most powerful countries in history. When Rangers sing about fenian *******s, hating Roman Catholics and especially being up to their knees in fenian blood, they are targeting a minority in this country who suffered persecution spanning decades upon decades.

I’m not trying to explain away Celtic’s sectarianism, it is bad and they need to be doing a lot more than they’re currently doing to stamp it out. However, the ‘two teams as bad as each other’ myth perpetuates sectarianism in Scotland, at least in my opinion. It indirectly validates Rangers’ (far worse) sectarianism, because they are told that Celtic are as bad, when they objectively just aren’t.

You make a lot of good points and in a constructive manner, which is appreciated as they tend to be rare on these kind of debates. So I’m weary of appearing glib and not actually adding anything constructive to the debate. However, I do think you treat Celtic a little lightly in a lot of your points. An example being the bit in bold. We may just see things differently but sectarianism is sectarianism, it doesn’t matter what side it comes from be it the historic persecutors or persecuted. In the same way that if a black man was to subject a white man to racist abuse I wouldn’t think, yeah but black people have historically been persecuted. I’d just think the individual was a racist moron.

IMO we can correlate the Celtic support singing about the Queen, booing remembrance silences, and singing about the IRA etc. On the face of it each can be explained away as to why they are not sectarian, but for me the root of why these non footballing songs are sung is Sectarianisim and a one upmanship in a rivalry that is fuelled by sectarianism. Remove sectarianism from the Old Firm and it’s just another Villa v Birmingham type of derby.

[G B Young]

A curious take on it by Potter:

Hearts manager Craig Levein said "every manager gets abuse" and believes the incidents at matches are part of "a society problem".
"How we stop it I don't know," he added. "The problem with strict liability is if you want to mess around and cause trouble if you are a supporter of another club, you buy tickets for your nearest rival and shout sectarian abuse. Then you get the club fined.
"So what's to stop that?"

[Onion]

That would be putting lipstick on a pig.

The issue of sectarianism and the behaviour of the Old Firm fans goes well beyond the 90 minutes every weekend.

It's only by destroying sectarianism entirely from Scottish culture that any change will be enacted with effect. I can't see that in my lifetime.

Until then, we're going to continue hearing about fenian and orange *******s, the IRA, the UVF, papists, Big Jock and his knowledge, Palestine, Israel, Bobby Sands, the Pope...

This is totally missing the point. Football has a massive responsibility to eradicate this from match days and would be a huge step forward in the battle against sectarianism, intolerance and hatred. Celtic and Sevco are the focal point for all the hate filled bigots. Instead of these creatures having to creep out in the middle of the night to secret meetings under the cloak of darkness, Celtic and Sevco actively facilitate the gatherings in plain sight and with the blessing of the media including the BBC and Sky. History will record their years of tolerance, acceptance and encouragement of sectarianism as horrific and shameful.

[Lago]

Actually I disagree strongly with this notion that "It's NOT football's problem.Wider issue for society"etc.
It bloomin' well IS!
It's the only environment your hear this stuff in.
It's the festering bile you get from mindless bigots who go to football games with their "folk songs"(copyright Donald Finlay QC) UVF and IRA flags that fuel the whole thing IMO.
Nowhere else in society does this exist.
There may be differences in the dwindling numbers attending Church on Sundays and certain bigots will go on about schools but that is rally not an issue.Both State and Catholic schools give a balanced broadly Christian education to children and do not indoctrinate them in bigotry.
Football nurtures maintains and encourages this.The Old Firm and the SFA condone it.Money and vested interests don't want any change.

PS Never a sending off and clear penalty!
refs are a different issue (aren't they?!)
You are so right, spot on, excellent post.:top marks

[blackpoolhibs]

Football is not responsible for all parts of society, i'ts responsible for what happens on a Saturday at grounds all over the country.

They could stamp it out at football by deducting points and closing stadiums, its probably wont stop it in the pubs or houses, but i dont frequent those pubs and houses, and Saturday would be a much more pleasant day out without that bile.

If we had these clowns disrupting movies in the cinema, they'd be thrown out and banned, no other entertainment puts up with this, it is a football problem and one that is easily sorted if there was a will.

People have to want rid of this problem, but when it's ingrained into the folk who are running the show, we've no chance.

[SquashedFrogg]

Football is not responsible for all parts of society, i'ts responsible for what happens on a Saturday at grounds all over the country.

They could stamp it out at football by deducting points and closing stadiums, its probably wont stop it in the pubs or houses, but i dont frequent those pubs and houses, and Saturday would be a much more pleasant day out without that bile.

If we had these clowns disrupting movies in the cinema, they'd be thrown out and banned, no other entertainment puts up with this, it is a football problem and one that is easily sorted if there was a will.

People have to want rid of this problem, but when it's ingrained into the folk who are running the show, we've no chance.

Sadly, your last sentence sums the problem up.

[Leith Green]

A curious take on it by Potter:

Hearts manager Craig Levein said "every manager gets abuse" and believes the incidents at matches are part of "a society problem".
"How we stop it I don't know," he added. "The problem with strict liability is if you want to mess around and cause trouble if you are a supporter of another club, you buy tickets for your nearest rival and shout sectarian abuse. Then you get the club fined.
"So what's to stop that?"


Craig Levein would have to come up with such a scenario now wouldnt he. Guy is a helmet ..

[ancient hibee]

Think it's about time for one of these wonderful articles.I remember two headlines

"The greatest derby in the world" and

"The Old Firm ,the envy of the football world".

[Ozyhibby]

A curious take on it by Potter:

Hearts manager Craig Levein said "every manager gets abuse" and believes the incidents at matches are part of "a society problem".
"How we stop it I don't know," he added. "The problem with strict liability is if you want to mess around and cause trouble if you are a supporter of another club, you buy tickets for your nearest rival and shout sectarian abuse. Then you get the club fined.
"So what's to stop that?"

How would you manage to get 10,000 of the other teams fans to sing along with you?[emoji102]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[cabbageandribs1875]

there's obviously no laws available at the moment if the scottish government are asking the football bosses to do more

[Radium]

A curious take on it by Potter:

Hearts manager Craig Levein said "every manager gets abuse" and believes the incidents at matches are part of "a society problem".
"How we stop it I don't know," he added. "The problem with strict liability is if you want to mess around and cause trouble if you are a supporter of another club, you buy tickets for your nearest rival and shout sectarian abuse. Then you get the club fined.
"So what's to stop that?"

Under strict liability clubs would invest in CCTV that covers the whole stadium and they would actively seek to identify offenders.

Fans would have an incentive to deal with or point out trouble makers.

There are details that would need to be cleared up eg if we sell tickets direct to away fans are we responsible for their behaviour or is it the visiting club


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[hibbyfraelibby]

...and to think some Labstaining red tory twat told us there was no need for the OB@F Act.

[Wakeyhibee]

A curious take on it by Potter:

Hearts manager Craig Levein said "every manager gets abuse" and believes the incidents at matches are part of "a society problem".
"How we stop it I don't know," he added. "The problem with strict liability is if you want to mess around and cause trouble if you are a supporter of another club, you buy tickets for your nearest rival and shout sectarian abuse. Then you get the club fined.
"So what's to stop that?"

If an individual of any club at any ground is found and supporters around them get them ejected/arrested, no further action required. Can hardly blame a whole club for a couple of people, and these would then be barred.

If a significant number or whole stand go up with a sectarian/racist song, Close the ground for the next home game.

I don't get Potters negativity in all aspects of football.

[Mantis Toboggan]

Craig Levein would have to come up with such a scenario now wouldnt he. Guy is a helmet ..

It's just such an unlikely scenario as to be irrelevant. A terrifying insight into how his mind works.

[007]

A curious take on it by Potter:

Hearts manager Craig Levein said "every manager gets abuse" and believes the incidents at matches are part of "a society problem".
"How we stop it I don't know," he added. "The problem with strict liability is if you want to mess around and cause trouble if you are a supporter of another club, you buy tickets for your nearest rival and shout sectarian abuse. Then you get the club fined.
"So what's to stop that?"

Trouble is Craig it's not just 1 supporter at a time doing it. You witnessed what Lennon was subjected to. Are rival supporters going to conspire together in their thousands
and get tickets in the home end of rival clubs? If it is just 1 supporter caught doing it then maybe clubs don't get docked points for that.

[Hibernian Verse]

Andy Walker has just gone up in my estimation. Go to Sky Sports News Twitter and one of the latest videos is him and Jim White calling out Rangers and Celtic live on Sky exposing the reality to the rest of the UK who must be looking on thinking we are a bunch of helmets up here.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[The 90+2]

Of course the *****bag Potter doesn’t want strict liability as their fans are the third worst in Scotland and think of all the trouble they would be in had it had come in. Like the St Johnstone fan being called a fenian ******* at Tynie a few weeks ago.

[Hibeesmad]

Fans in England and elsewhere must think the Old Firm are right fannies

[matty_f]

...and to think some Labstaining red tory twat told us there was no need for the OB@F Act.

There wasn't. The crime's already covered under existing law/legislation.

[green day]

Andy Walker has just gone up in my estimation. Go to Sky Sports News Twitter and one of the latest videos is him and Jim White calling out Rangers and Celtic live on Sky exposing the reality to the rest of the UK who must be looking on thinking we are a bunch of helmets up here.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

I just retweeted that with some choice comments about White.

Frankly it was laughable to see Jim White pretending to give a toss about sectarianism - when he asked Leeann Dempster if Neil Lennon "brought these things on himself" on that Talksport segment after Tynecastle.

He is a bellend and andy walker - well, words fail me, as he said (after the kris boyd abuse) that it was just banter.

Pair of utter fannies.

[Hibernian Verse]

I just retweeted that with some choice comments about White.

Frankly it was laughable to see Jim White pretending to give a toss about sectarianism - when he asked Leeann Dempster if Neil Lennon "brought these things on himself" on that Talksport segment after Tynecastle.

He is a bellend and andy walker - well, words fail me, as he said (after the kris boyd abuse) that it was just banter.

Pair of utter fannies.I see why you think that but imo anything exposing them to the rest of the UK is good in my book.

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[The Modfather]

I just retweeted that with some choice comments about White.

Frankly it was laughable to see Jim White pretending to give a toss about sectarianism - when he asked Leeann Dempster if Neil Lennon "brought these things on himself" on that Talksport segment after Tynecastle.

He is a bellend and andy walker - well, words fail me, as he said (after the kris boyd abuse) that it was just banter.

Pair of utter fannies.

Can you post the link up please? I did a google search, but I’m a Luddite and can’t find it.

[Eyrie]

The solution is pretty straightforward. Each time a team's fans offend, that team gets an escalating penalty.

First offence = a warning
Second offence = a fine based on turnover
Third offence = points deduction
Fourth offence = close offending part of stadium
Fifth offence = close the stadium.

Very quickly the majority of fans who are "just joining in with traditional songs" will shut up to avoid harming their club or missing games and that will leave the hard core of idiots who can then be banned by their own club.

The problem is the refusal of Scottish clubs to take the issue seriously enough to introduce the above.

[Peevemor]

The solution is pretty straightforward. Each time a team's fans offend, that team gets an escalating penalty.

First offence = a warning
Second offence = a fine based on turnover
Third offence = points deduction
Fourth offence = close offending part of stadium
Fifth offence = close the stadium.

Very quickly the majority of fans who are "just joining in with traditional songs" will shut up to avoid harming their club or missing games and that will leave the hard core of idiots who can then be banned by their own club.

The problem is the refusal of Scottish clubs to take the issue seriously enough to introduce the above.

I'd go for something along those lines.

[green day]

Can you post the link up please? I did a google search, but I’m a Luddite and can’t find it.

Nae bother

https://twitter.com/ScotlandSky/status/1098635393149222913?s=19

[Paisley Hibby]

I fail to see why HFCE would need a tin hat.

His post at #107 here is worth reading,if you really believe that"one is a bad as the other"

Although you don't say what the other is "bad" at :greengrin

If you are referring to bigotry /sectarianism.

There is no comparison.

None whatsoever.
Both clubs are equally hypocritical in that they profess to abhor sectarianism while being very happy to profit from it. And as for the singing/chanting, I don't think it's possible to say whether being "up to their knees in Fenian Blood" is any worse than singing "ooh ah up the Ra" (in support of terrorists who not so long ago were spilling real blood).

[Sir David Gray]

I agreed wholeheartedly with Steve Clarke's press conference last night but I do think he loses a bit of credibility by staying silent on exactly the same issue last weekend when asked about the incident involving Kris Boyd.

It does give those who are against him the opportunity to dismiss his comments as nothing more than sour grapes from someone who has just watched his team lose 5-0.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

I agreed wholeheartedly with Steve Clarke's press conference last night but I do think he loses a bit of credibility by staying silent on exactly the same issue last weekend when asked about the incident involving Kris Boyd.

It does give those who are against him the opportunity to dismiss his comments as nothing more than sour grapes from someone who has just watched his team lose 5-0.

Could it be that he wanted to divert any additional attention away from his player?

[Sir David Gray]

Could it be that he wanted to divert any additional attention away from his player?

Possibly but when Boyd himself came out to condemn the behaviour towards him but his manager didn't wish to make any comment, it doesn't really look great when Clarke's then going on a rant just a few days later about abuse he has suffered at Ibrox.

[poolman]

I just retweeted that with some choice comments about White.

Frankly it was laughable to see Jim White pretending to give a toss about sectarianism - when he asked Leeann Dempster if Neil Lennon "brought these things on himself" on that Talksport segment after Tynecastle.

He is a bellend and andy walker - well, words fail me, as he said (after the kris boyd abuse) that it was just banter.

Pair of utter fannies.


Couldn't put that post any better 👍

[CLASS OF 72 -73]

I’m happy he’s brought it up. Bit annoying that he didn’t do the same on Sunday when it was the Celtc fans though. Both as bad as each other and it’s a problem that’ll never get fixed.

Celtic fans not clever with the Boyd incident and they are very far from innocent on sectarianism but as bad as each other. Really?
Agree will never get fixed.

[Ozyhibby]

Celtic fans not clever with the Boyd incident and they are very far from innocent on sectarianism but as bad as each other. Really?
Agree will never get fixed.

Agree they are not as bad as each other butCeltic fans have got worse recently. They don’t have the mass chanting that new Rangers do but they do have increasing number of incidents like Boyd.
It’s the mass chanting that is the biggest problem though. The incident with Boyd needs to be dealt with there and then with an arrest. Mass chanting needs dealt with by punishing the club. This is what happens in England but apparently can’t happen in Scotland?


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[Smartie]

Agree they are not as bad as each other butCeltic fans have got worse recently. They don’t have the mass chanting that new Rangers do but they do have increasing number of incidents like Boyd.
It’s the mass chanting that is the biggest problem though. The incident with Boyd needs to be dealt with there and then with an arrest. Mass chanting needs dealt with by punishing the club. This is what happens in England but apparently can’t happen in Scotland?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's also easier for Celtic to wriggle out of stuff on technicalities - certain "folk songs", songs in support of terrorist groups etc are more than likely motivated by a type of bigotry but aren't as obvious as the Sevconian ditties.

We've also got to accept that we're less likely to be on the sharp end of it from Celtic fans. I know some perfectly decent jambos (including a few Catholics) who have been in the wrong place at the wrong time and had a horrendous time from them.

[theonlywayisup]

Listened to the interview last night - well said Steve Clarke.

I'm a bit disappointed going onto the BBC Scotland News page to see that's it's well down the list in terms of headlines. If this was England, and a black English manager/player claimed to be racially abused, I'm sure it would be close to top headline, as in the Sterling case. Remember, Sterling was allegedly abused by one or two individuals.

Not in Scotland. I know there are other stories that are more high profile, but "Challenging winter for snowsports in Scotland" and "The new BBC Scotland TV channel: what is it?" plus many others similar to this.

In Scotland, thousands of fans sing about a F B and it gets reported way down the page, below stories like "Road closed after fire in Edinburgh takeaway shop". It's like they can't wait to fill their news page with any news.

BBS Scotland, you're a disgrace.

[Onion]

A curious take on it by Potter:

Hearts manager Craig Levein said "every manager gets abuse" and believes the incidents at matches are part of "a society problem".
"How we stop it I don't know," he added. "The problem with strict liability is if you want to mess around and cause trouble if you are a supporter of another club, you buy tickets for your nearest rival and shout sectarian abuse. Then you get the club fined.
"So what's to stop that?"


Doesn't Strict Liability already apply acrosss Europe, so what the Hell is this idiot on about. Where's all the evidence ?

Sounds like a Yam thing, well used to buying tickets for Hibs games :confused:

[chrisski33]

Fans in England and elsewhere must think the Old Firm are right fannies

yup and its one of many reasons why they will not be allowed to join their league

[Alex Trager]

Celtic fans not clever with the Boyd incident and they are very far from innocent on sectarianism but as bad as each other. Really?
Agree will never get fixed.


Agree they are not as bad as each other butCeltic fans have got worse recently. They don’t have the mass chanting that new Rangers do but they do have increasing number of incidents like Boyd.
It’s the mass chanting that is the biggest problem though. The incident with Boyd needs to be dealt with there and then with an arrest. Mass chanting needs dealt with by punishing the club. This is what happens in England but apparently can’t happen in Scotland?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don’t know how you can say celtic aren’t as bad.
They have mass chanting just as much imo.

Maybe because we fall ‘on the same side’ as them they don’t roll their party songs out as much when playing us but they certainly do when against others.

[HibeeHibernian4]

I don’t know how you can say celtic aren’t as bad.
They have mass chanting just as much imo.

Maybe because we fall ‘on the same side’ as them they don’t roll their party songs out as much when playing us but they certainly do when against others.

Here are six Rangers lyrics that are explicitly and overtly sectarian:

- "up to our knees in fenian blood"
- "we hate Celtic, fenian *******s"
- "cheer up Alan Stubbs/Neil Lennon, oh what can it be, to a sad fenian *******"
- "Dundee, Hamilton, **** the Pope and the Vatican"
- "**** the Pope and the IRA"
- "we hate Catholics, everybody hates, Roman Catholics."

Celtic sing one version of the above, calling the then Rangers manager a sad orange ******* in the cheer up song.

If you can find me five more songs that Celtic sing with explicit, overt anti-Protestant sentiments, then I’m all ears. The reality is, you won’t be able to, because they simply don’t exist.

Here are two borderline indisputable statements about sectarianism in Scottish football:

1) Celtic have a problem with sectarianism in their fanbase that they need to eradicate.

2) Rangers have a bigger problem with sectarianism in their fanbase and their club as a whole that they need to eradicate.

[Ozyhibby]

Here are six Rangers lyrics that are explicitly and overtly sectarian:

- "up to our knees in fenian blood"
- "we hate Celtic, fenian *******s"
- "cheer up Alan Stubbs/Neil Lennon, oh what can it be, to a sad fenian *******"
- "Dundee, Hamilton, **** the Pope and the Vatican"
- "**** the Pope and the IRA"
- "we hate Catholics, everybody hates, Roman Catholics."

Celtic sing one version of the above, calling the then Rangers manager a sad orange ******* in the cheer up song.

If you can find me five more songs that Celtic sing with explicit, overt anti-Protestant sentiments, then I’m all ears. The reality is, you won’t be able to, because they simply don’t exist.

Here are two borderline indisputable statements about sectarianism in Scottish football:

1) Celtic have a problem with sectarianism in their fanbase that they need to eradicate.

2) Rangers have a bigger problem with sectarianism in their fanbase and their club as a whole that they need to eradicate.

Pretty much sums up the situation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Coco Bryce]

Has the Pope ever came out and said that The Rangers songs offend him?

:worms:

[Bobby's Cinema]

So tired of Steve Clarke being top of the agenda every day of the week to be honest regardless of what he’s saying at this point.

[Mili Tant]

What lessons do Hibs need?

Did Lennon (as a Hibs employee) not call out sectarianism a few short months back?

Exactly the same as SC just did?

We have the names and addresses of every "fan" that buys a ticket. We also have CCTV. So why are they not handing the tapes and data base to Police Scotland and insisting they act on it with the same zest as they did when hunting down Hibs fans who invaded Hampden on some day in 2016?

[Paul1642]

So tired of Steve Clarke being top of the agenda every day of the week to be honest regardless of what he’s saying at this point.

Bringing light to the issues of sectarianism and poor refs, issues we have been complaining about as long as I can remember. Good on him

[Keith_M]

Good to see someone not afraid to call things as they are and not shy away from a difficult subject. Hope Hibs can learn a few lessons here.


:agree:


If other clubs stopped tip-toeing about this subject, then things might actually change.

[green day]

Bringing light to the issues of sectarianism and poor refs, issues we have been complaining about as long as I can remember. Good on him

No different to when Lennon did it last year. And the outcome will be the same.

[Hibernia&Alba]

No different to when Lennon did it last year. And the outcome will be the same.

Nothing will change until we get strict liability and meaningful consequences for sectarian behaviour.

[Keyser Sauzee]

No different to when Lennon did it last year. And the outcome will be the same.

Ur right about Lennon but wrong about the outcome, the more people speaking out in a way that Steve Clarke has done then eventually things will have to change.

[HoboHarry]

So tired of Steve Clarke being top of the agenda every day of the week to be honest regardless of what he’s saying at this point.
Anyone who has the balls to tackle Sevco and Celtic fans can talk all day as far as I am concerned. More power to him and I'd rather hear him talk than witness the silent cowardice of people like Maxwell, Doncaster and everyone else who is supposed to be representing our national game.

[Allant1981]

So tired of Steve Clarke being top of the agenda every day of the week to be honest regardless of what he’s saying at this point.

Calling out clubs and their sectarian fans should be an agenda every week until its stamped out regardless who is doing it

[green day]

Anyone who has the balls to tackle Sevco and Celtic fans can talk all day as far as I am concerned. More power to him and I'd rather hear him talk than witness the silent cowardice of people like Maxwell, Doncaster and everyone else who is supposed to be representing our national game.

I haven't paid a huge amount of attention since yesterday, I do hope he has also mentioned Celtic......as they are both culpable.

[Jim_in_Canada]

What are the odds his comments make the newspapers tomorrow?

21727

From the Waterloo Region Record - Kitchener, Ontario, Canada.

[Keith_M]

Calling out clubs and their sectarian fans should be an agenda every week until its stamped out regardless who is doing it


:agree:


The clubs are happy to engage in campaigns to stamp out racism, but sectarianism, (which is much worse in Scotland, surely) is barely ever mentioned.

It's time the clubs engaged in regular campaigns to call out sectarianism. We the Fans could also do our part and I'd happily donate to a banner to display at every Hibs game.

[green day]

:agree:


The clubs are happy to engage in campaigns to stamp out racism, but sectarianism, (which is much worse in Scotland, surely) is barely ever mentioned.

It's time the clubs engaged in regular campaigns to call out sectarianism. We the Fans could also do our part and I'd happily donate to a banner to display at every Hibs game.

Could put a banner in the FF lower it's always half empty 😆

[HoboHarry]

I haven't paid a huge amount of attention since yesterday, I do hope he has also mentioned Celtic......as they are both culpable.
I don't think he has mentioned Celtic - I was talking generally about anyone who is prepared to pull them up is just fine with me......

[murray26]

It’s about time this mob we’re shamed into doing something about there large majority of bigoted fans.. good on Steve Clarke for telling it how it is..

[Bostonhibby]

We have the names and addresses of every "fan" that buys a ticket. We also have CCTV. So why are they not handing the tapes and data base to Police Scotland and insisting they act on it with the same zest as they did when hunting down Hibs fans who invaded Hampden on some day in 2016?Is it because police glasgow are all Huns?, or at least that way inclined.

Personally I think they are ****** scared of enacting the legislation as they'll be filling out paperwork on their friends and colleagues for decades

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[Betty Boop]

Here are six Rangers lyrics that are explicitly and overtly sectarian:

- "up to our knees in fenian blood"
- "we hate Celtic, fenian *******s"
- "cheer up Alan Stubbs/Neil Lennon, oh what can it be, to a sad fenian *******"
- "Dundee, Hamilton, **** the Pope and the Vatican"
- "**** the Pope and the IRA"
- "we hate Catholics, everybody hates, Roman Catholics."

Celtic sing one version of the above, calling the then Rangers manager a sad orange ******* in the cheer up song.

If you can find me five more songs that Celtic sing with explicit, overt anti-Protestant sentiments, then I’m all ears. The reality is, you won’t be able to, because they simply don’t exist.

Here are two borderline indisputable statements about sectarianism in Scottish football:

1) Celtic have a problem with sectarianism in their fanbase that they need to eradicate.

2) Rangers have a bigger problem with sectarianism in their fanbase and their club as a whole that they need to eradicate.

Aye kets split hairs over who has the biggest problem. They feed off each other.

[HibeeHibernian4]

Aye lets split hairs over who has the biggest problem. They feed off each other.

The entire point is that it's not splitting hairs, there is a clear chasm in difference when it comes to sectarianism. Offensive singing? No, the gap is much narrower. They both sing about proscribed terrorist groups and are generally obsessed with the other.

But when it comes to sectarianism, to ignore the power relations of religion in Scotland is to do the sectarianism debate a disservice. Protestants and Catholics in this country did not start off on equal footing, and people tend to overlook that massively when examining sectarianism. There was no 'Catholic Action' or 'Scottish Catholic League' in the 1930s in Edinburgh or Glasgow.

There is a sizeable portion of Rangers' support who view both Celtic and us (and indeed the very existence of prominent Catholics within Scotland) as an attack on the dominance that they once enjoyed. Look at how they speak of the Scottish National Party, they frame it as a papal conspiracy that is taking over the country at every level. They even call them the SNPira, ffs.

Celtic (and Catholics by wider extension) have come from the other end to - just about - parity in the modern day. Can they still be sectarian? Yes, of course they can. Are they less likely to be? Equally, yes. I am not making a direct comparison here, but half a century ago, black people would be extremely unlikely to be racist towards white people in public for fear of reprisal. White people, by contrast, could be as racist as they liked towards black people and face zero consequences.

It had been openly acceptable at Rangers to be as intolerant and bigoted of Catholics as one pleased, up to and including the signing of Mo Johnston. The inverse just isn't true of Celtic. Their formation, much like ours, was a rallying against sectarianism.

The bottom line is this, there is a disturbed minority in this country who believe ours and Celtic's existence is, in and of itself, sectarian. We should not waste time trying to appease them by following this 'both sides as bad as each other' myth.

Again, to stress, I am atheist and have no grudge against either side. In fact, without taking this thread to the Holy Ground, there are parts of Catholicism that I am put off by far more than the CoS. But I can say, with near certainty, that this will never be solved until the elephant in the room is addressed, and that element is Rangers Football Club and a sizeable section of their support.

[we are hibs]

Aren't these the jokers who blamed Lennon for him receiving sectarian abuse August 2017?


http://club1872.co.uk/news/club-1872-statement-on-unacceptable-behaviour/


Club 1872 Statement on Unacceptable Behaviour

22 February, 2019

Club 1872 fully supports the stance of Rangers and Rangers’ manager, Steven Gerrard in condemning all unacceptable behaviour in Scottish football. It is absolutely clear to us that Rangers has done and continues to do what it reasonably can to address this issue, which remains a problem amongst a minority of all clubs’ supporters and wider society. We will be happy to work with the club on future initiatives in this area.

Unfortunately we see absolutely no viable way to eradicate these sporadic instances of unacceptable behaviour, as long as elements of the Scottish media, Scottish politicians and interest groups continue to sensationalise incidents based on their own prejudice or self interest.

We are in the absurd situation where last weekend Sky pundit, Andy Walker, laughed about sectarian abuse of Kris Boyd and then days later took the polar opposite approach to similar abuse of Steve Clarke. We have seen four BBC Scotland pundits and journalists completely ignore the sectarian abuse of Kris Boyd but comment extensively on social media following the Steve Clarke incident.

This is not just a media phenomenon, however. James Dornan MSP, a self styled sectarianism crusader who himself posed in front of a terrorist flag, ignored the sectarianism directed at Kris Boyd by fans of the club he supports, Celtic, but has now publicly demanded talks with Rangers over the Steve Clarke incident.

Groups like Nil By Mouth and Show Racism the Red Card Scotland have taken the same approach – they completely ignored “orange b****rd” chants directed at Boyd but immediately sprung into action when Steve Clarke spoke about the subject.

If the Scottish establishment is serious about tackling these issues then we should have a real debate about the causes and possible solutions. This will require discussing not just football, despite its higher profile, but having a fair and honest discussion about other contributing factors in society.

We sense absolutely no appetite in Scotland to have that debate – almost every comment on the subject is superficial, one eyed or sensationalised. The term ‘whataboutery’ is now routinely used to shoot down any voice that requests parity in the treatment of these events. In fact, the sum total of the debate thus far has been manufactured media outrage, politicians with an agenda to raise their own profile and groups who rely on the publicity around these issues, as they relate to football, for funding.

Club 1872 will be happy to take part in any honest dialogue on this subject, if such dialogue ever begins.

[The Green Goblin]

Aren't these the jokers who blamed Lennon for him receiving sectarian abuse August 2017?


http://club1872.co.uk/news/club-1872-statement-on-unacceptable-behaviour/


Club 1872 Statement on Unacceptable Behaviour

22 February, 2019

Club 1872 fully supports the stance of Rangers and Rangers’ manager, Steven Gerrard in condemning all unacceptable behaviour in Scottish football. It is absolutely clear to us that Rangers has done and continues to do what it reasonably can to address this issue, which remains a problem amongst a minority of all clubs’ supporters and wider society. We will be happy to work with the club on future initiatives in this area.

Unfortunately we see absolutely no viable way to eradicate these sporadic instances of unacceptable behaviour, as long as elements of the Scottish media, Scottish politicians and interest groups continue to sensationalise incidents based on their own prejudice or self interest.

We are in the absurd situation where last weekend Sky pundit, Andy Walker, laughed about sectarian abuse of Kris Boyd and then days later took the polar opposite approach to similar abuse of Steve Clarke. We have seen four BBC Scotland pundits and journalists completely ignore the sectarian abuse of Kris Boyd but comment extensively on social media following the Steve Clarke incident.

This is not just a media phenomenon, however. James Dornan MSP, a self styled sectarianism crusader who himself posed in front of a terrorist flag, ignored the sectarianism directed at Kris Boyd by fans of the club he supports, Celtic, but has now publicly demanded talks with Rangers over the Steve Clarke incident.

Groups like Nil By Mouth and Show Racism the Red Card Scotland have taken the same approach – they completely ignored “orange b****rd” chants directed at Boyd but immediately sprung into action when Steve Clarke spoke about the subject.

If the Scottish establishment is serious about tackling these issues then we should have a real debate about the causes and possible solutions. This will require discussing not just football, despite its higher profile, but having a fair and honest discussion about other contributing factors in society.

We sense absolutely no appetite in Scotland to have that debate – almost every comment on the subject is superficial, one eyed or sensationalised. The term ‘whataboutery’ is now routinely used to shoot down any voice that requests parity in the treatment of these events. In fact, the sum total of the debate thus far has been manufactured media outrage, politicians with an agenda to raise their own profile and groups who rely on the publicity around these issues, as they relate to football, for funding.

Club 1872 will be happy to take part in any honest dialogue on this subject, if such dialogue ever begins.

They will never do anything. Ever. They know what goes on amongst their fans. Everyone knows.

[green day]

Aren't these the jokers who blamed Lennon for him receiving sectarian abuse August 2017?


http://club1872.co.uk/news/club-1872-statement-on-unacceptable-behaviour/


Club 1872 Statement on Unacceptable Behaviour



Christ, that would be laughable if they hadnt actually spent time thinking it up........

[Paisley Hibby]

The entire point is that it's not splitting hairs, there is a clear chasm in difference when it comes to sectarianism. Offensive singing? No, the gap is much narrower. They both sing about proscribed terrorist groups and are generally obsessed with the other.

But when it comes to sectarianism, to ignore the power relations of religion in Scotland is to do the sectarianism debate a disservice. Protestants and Catholics in this country did not start off on equal footing, and people tend to overlook that massively when examining sectarianism. There was no 'Catholic Action' or 'Scottish Catholic League' in the 1930s in Edinburgh or Glasgow.

There is a sizeable portion of Rangers' support who view both Celtic and us (and indeed the very existence of prominent Catholics within Scotland) as an attack on the dominance that they once enjoyed. Look at how they speak of the Scottish National Party, they frame it as a papal conspiracy that is taking over the country at every level. They even call them the SNPira, ffs.

Celtic (and Catholics by wider extension) have come from the other end to - just about - parity in the modern day. Can they still be sectarian? Yes, of course they can. Are they less likely to be? Equally, yes. I am not making a direct comparison here, but half a century ago, black people would be extremely unlikely to be racist towards white people in public for fear of reprisal. White people, by contrast, could be as racist as they liked towards black people and face zero consequences.

It had been openly acceptable at Rangers to be as intolerant and bigoted of Catholics as one pleased, up to and including the signing of Mo Johnston. The inverse just isn't true of Celtic. Their formation, much like ours, was a rallying against sectarianism.

The bottom line is this, there is a disturbed minority in this country who believe ours and Celtic's existence is, in and of itself, sectarian. We should not waste time trying to appease them by following this 'both sides as bad as each other' myth.

Again, to stress, I am atheist and have no grudge against either side. In fact, without taking this thread to the Holy Ground, there are parts of Catholicism that I am put off by far more than the CoS. But I can say, with near certainty, that this will never be solved until the elephant in the room is addressed, and that element is Rangers Football Club and a sizeable section of their support.

Hmmm. I'm a Catholic and as far as I'm concerned Celtic and Rangers are as bad as each other. Sure, Hibs faced anti-Irish bigotry when formed but we were not set up as a rallying initiative against that bigotry. Rather, we were originally about giving young Irish guys living in Edinburgh something productive to do and keeping them out of the pub. It was then discovered that they could also raise money for good causes - so much money in fact that Celtic were established to copy us (but were quickly hijacked by Glasgow Catholic business men with an eye for a quick buck wrapped in Catholic charity). Celtic and Rangers became a means by which tribal loyalties could be openly expressed and at its extreme this still spills into sectarian abuse. Both clubs could easily bring an end to this but don't because it keeps the cash coming in. And the fans of both sides want to keep this going because deep down they enjoy and condone it - no matter how much they protest otherwise.

[Rumble de Thump]

Rangers died. And if the football authorities and media hadn't been so desperate to pretend it hadn't, a massive part of this problem would have died with it. It was a huge opportunity wasted, but these people actively wanted to pass up the opportunity and have worked extremely hard to do so. Let's just move on.

[Hibernia&Alba]

The entire point is that it's not splitting hairs, there is a clear chasm in difference when it comes to sectarianism. Offensive singing? No, the gap is much narrower. They both sing about proscribed terrorist groups and are generally obsessed with the other.

But when it comes to sectarianism, to ignore the power relations of religion in Scotland is to do the sectarianism debate a disservice. Protestants and Catholics in this country did not start off on equal footing, and people tend to overlook that massively when examining sectarianism. There was no 'Catholic Action' or 'Scottish Catholic League' in the 1930s in Edinburgh or Glasgow.

There is a sizeable portion of Rangers' support who view both Celtic and us (and indeed the very existence of prominent Catholics within Scotland) as an attack on the dominance that they once enjoyed. Look at how they speak of the Scottish National Party, they frame it as a papal conspiracy that is taking over the country at every level. They even call them the SNPira, ffs.

Celtic (and Catholics by wider extension) have come from the other end to - just about - parity in the modern day. Can they still be sectarian? Yes, of course they can. Are they less likely to be? Equally, yes. I am not making a direct comparison here, but half a century ago, black people would be extremely unlikely to be racist towards white people in public for fear of reprisal. White people, by contrast, could be as racist as they liked towards black people and face zero consequences.

It had been openly acceptable at Rangers to be as intolerant and bigoted of Catholics as one pleased, up to and including the signing of Mo Johnston. The inverse just isn't true of Celtic. Their formation, much like ours, was a rallying against sectarianism.

The bottom line is this, there is a disturbed minority in this country who believe ours and Celtic's existence is, in and of itself, sectarian. We should not waste time trying to appease them by following this 'both sides as bad as each other' myth.

Again, to stress, I am atheist and have no grudge against either side. In fact, without taking this thread to the Holy Ground, there are parts of Catholicism that I am put off by far more than the CoS. But I can say, with near certainty, that this will never be solved until the elephant in the room is addressed, and that element is Rangers Football Club and a sizeable section of their support.

I have to agree: when it comes to religious bigotry, it is not fifty-fifty, as Rangers are far worse and always have been. The Rangers are far more anti-Catholic than Celtc are anti-Protestant. When it comes to Irish politics, they certainly are equally culpable and both revel in tribalism and hatred.

[The Modfather]

I have to agree: when it comes to religious bigotry, it is not fifty-fifty, as Rangers are far worse and always have been. The Rangers are far more anti-Catholic than Celtc are anti-Protestant. When it comes to Irish politics, they certainly are equally culpable and both revel in tribalism and hatred.

But surely Irish politics, in the context of Scottish football, is intertwined with religion and sectarianism? So singing about the IRA or Fenians in the bizarre world of Old Firm fans is one and the same, and not actually anything do with the political aspect.

[Hibernia&Alba]

But surely Irish politics, in the context of Scottish football, is intertwined with religion and sectarianism? So singing about the IRA or Fenians in the bizarre world of Old Firm fans is one and the same, and not actually anything do with the political aspect.

No, I don't think so. Singing FTP or No Pope of Rome, has nothing to do with Irish politics.

[The Modfather]

No, I don't think so. Singing FTP or No Pope of Rome, has nothing to do with Irish politics.

That’s my point though. I don’t think any of it has any relevance to Irish Politics. When they sing about the IRA or the Queen etc they aren’t actually singing about Irish Politics or The Monarchy, in the black and white warped world of the old Firm everything relates back to either sitting on the Catholic side or the Protestant side.

[The Harp Awakes]

I have to agree: when it comes to religious bigotry, it is not fifty-fifty, as Rangers are far worse and always have been. The Rangers are far more anti-Catholic than Celtc are anti-Protestant. When it comes to Irish politics, they certainly are equally culpable and both revel in tribalism and hatred.

Totally agree with you mate. The Rangers have a far bigger problem with religious bigotry amongst their support than Celtic. It's convenient for the media to call it a joint problem, as they won't face the wrath of the Rangers as much as they would if they singled them out.

[Hibernia&Alba]

That’s my point though. I don’t think any of it has any relevance to Irish Politics. When they sing about the IRA or the Queen etc they aren’t actually singing about Irish Politics or The Monarchy, in the black and white warped world of the old Firm everything relates back to either sitting on the Catholic side or the Protestant side.

I'm not sure about that. Overt anti-Catholicism is far more prevalent amongst Rangers fans than anti-Protestantism is amongst the lesser greens. You only need look at any fans forum to see this. Very rarely do Celtc fans sing about the queen or Protestants. The religious dimension is not an equal balance: the anti-Catholicism/anti-Irish sentiment at Rangers far outweighs any corresponding views amongst Celtic fans, though that doesn't diminish the IRA nonsense. Bigotry is very much a problem at Celtc, even if the emphasis is different.

[Antonyopus]

This is so very easy to remedy - deduct points from the team end of.

[Keith_M]

I see there's a lot of debate about whether they are as bad as each other or one side is worse.

Surely the only thing that matters is that both sides are despicable.

[jacomo]

‘Rangers abhor sectarianism’ says the lying King.

Oh aye but they’ll happily whip up the hordes and twist the facts to bolster their victimhood narrative, which feeds a them and us mentality.

Sectarianism is their business model. They just know to avoid saying so explicitly.

[Aldo]

So I see the Killie Keeper has had his sending off rescinded against Newco!

Surprise Surprise!!

Damage has already been done!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hibernia&Alba]

‘Rangers abhor sectarianism’ says the lying King.

Oh aye but they’ll happily whip up the hordes and twist the facts to bolster their victimhood narrative, which feeds a them and us mentality.

Sectarianism is their business model. They just know to avoid saying so explicitly.

And bring out an orange strip, just to play to said hordes. Just a happy coincidence was it? They know what they are doing, the liars.

[Victor]

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/crime/rangers-fan-fined-for-shouting-sectarian-slurs-during-match-1-4877800

Looks like the police in Perth are taking action. Will be interesting to see if Rangers ban him.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[jakedance]

And bring out an orange strip, just to play to said hordes. Just a happy coincidence was it? They know what they are doing, the liars.

And one with a sash across it.

[Montford]

I see there's a lot of debate about whether they are as bad as each other or one side is worse.

Surely the only thing that matters is that both sides are despicable.

That’s their modus operandi each time one, or either, of them is exposed. Takes the heat off each other, or rather the particular incident being discussed so as it eventually gets lost in a swamp of whatabouterry. Eventually it subsided and it’s back to business as usual..
Watch out for journalistic integrity proclaiming the benefits of the old firm to Scotland and Scottish football over the coming weeks, along with lip service about how the clubs are launching initiatives to tackle it.

[The Harp Awakes]

And bring out an orange strip, just to play to said hordes. Just a happy coincidence was it? They know what they are doing, the liars.

Eradicating sectarianism at Ibrox is never going to happen. As a club they owe their very existence to it.

There was opportunity when the old Rangers died for a new Board to come in and show some leadership and start afresh with a clean slate, but if anything, Sevco are more bigoted than the old version.

[FilipinoHibs]

I see there's a lot of debate about whether they are as bad as each other or one side is worse.

Surely the only tuhing that matters is that both sides are despicable.

Rangers are part of the oppressors. The protestants that where put into the British colony to create a privileged working class that would be loyal to the British state and crown. You might hate the Celtic arrogance but they are historically the resistors to colonial brutal rule. They trace their roots back to thousands who came to Scotland to avoid the potatoe famine deliberately started by colonial Britain. So two sides not the same at all.

[Mantis Toboggan]

Rangers are part of the oppressors. The protestants that where put into the British colony to create a privileged working class that would be loyal to the British state and crown. You might hate the Celtic arrogance but they are historically the resistors to colonial brutal rule. They trace their roots back to thousands who came to Scotland to avoid the potatoe famine deliberately started by colonial Britain. So two sides not the same at all.

Aye, but I don't want to hear about it at the football full stop

[Onion]

And bring out an orange strip, just to play to said hordes. Just a happy coincidence was it? They know what they are doing, the liars.

They're a disgusting stain on humanity. The latest faux outrage by the two clubs is just as abhorrent as their decades of tolerance and inactivity. Everyone knows it, everyone can see it.

[lapsedhibee]

But when it comes to sectarianism, to ignore the power relations of religion in Scotland is to do the sectarianism debate a disservice. Protestants and Catholics in this country did not start off on equal footing, and people tend to overlook that massively when examining sectarianism. There was no 'Catholic Action' or 'Scottish Catholic League' in the 1930s in Edinburgh or Glasgow.

Correct. It used to be: 100% Catholic, 0% Protestant.

[hibsbollah]

Correct. It used to be: 100% Catholic, 0% Protestant.

And before that
Celtic polytheistists 100% Catholic 0%
St Columba has a lot to answer for

[Brightside]

Rangers are part of the oppressors. The protestants that where put into the British colony to create a privileged working class that would be loyal to the British state and crown. You might hate the Celtic arrogance but they are historically the resistors to colonial brutal rule. They trace their roots back to thousands who came to Scotland to avoid the potatoe famine deliberately started by colonial Britain. So two sides not the same at all.

Its got nothing to do with football and people using at it football should just piss off to their local church instead.

[The Modfather]

Rangers are part of the oppressors. The protestants that where put into the British colony to create a privileged working class that would be loyal to the British state and crown. You might hate the Celtic arrogance but they are historically the resistors to colonial brutal rule. They trace their roots back to thousands who came to Scotland to avoid the potatoe famine deliberately started by colonial Britain. So two sides not the same at all.

Do you still view the current Germany through the Nazi prisim? Putting aside me fulfilling Godwin’s law, what relevance does your post have to 2019, far less at a game of football?

[Eyrie]

Rangers are part of the oppressors. The protestants that where put into the British colony to create a privileged working class that would be loyal to the British state and crown. You might hate the Celtic arrogance but they are historically the resistors to colonial brutal rule. They trace their roots back to thousands who came to Scotland to avoid the potatoe famine deliberately started by colonial Britain. So two sides not the same at all.
This is 21st century Scotland however, not seventeenth century Ireland.

[heretoday]

This is so very easy to remedy - deduct points from the team end of.

You're right but it's never going to happen.

[Hibernia&Alba]

You're right but it's never going to happen.

Strict liability, as used for European ties, is essential, if Scotland is to make a serious attempt to beat sectarianism. There is no excuse for avoiding it any longer.

[lapsedhibee]

Eradicating sectarianism at Ibrox is never going to happen. As a club they owe their very existence to it.

There was opportunity when the old Rangers died for a new Board to come in and show some leadership and start afresh with a clean slate, but if anything, Sevco are more bigoted than the old version.

Shirley it would be possible for there to be a team playing in blue at Ibrox called The Rangers, without the current historical obsessions? Might take a while, crowds might fall, but not inconceivable. Shirley.

[21.05.2016]

I'm gald Clarke has come out and had the balls to speak up about this. Its been an on going issue for decades and unfortunately until the SFA grow a backbone and do something about it it will continue to be. The SFA are **** scared to upset the OF that's the problem.

[Phil MaGlass]

I'm gald Clarke has come out and had the balls to speak up about this. Its been an on going issue for decades and unfortunately until the SFA grow a backbone and do something about it it will continue to be. The SFA are **** scared to upset the OF that's the problem.

Why be glad Clarke has come out about it, Lennon highlighted it ages ago and nae **** took notice. Hibs didnae back him when the opportunity arose, its ****

[21.05.2016]

As someone mentioned about, the toxic hatred is utterly ingrained into The Rangers, it runs right through the club, it's their identity.

I watched a documentary that came out a few years ago and it played a clip of Rangers winning the league back in the Butcher days. Terry Butcher is in the clip singing along to the Billy Boys. He says in his interview in the present day that he just got caught up in it all because it was so normalized at the club. That's the reality of life at Ibrox.

The media need to take a look at themselves as well. Stop covering it up by turning down the mics when the OF, loudly and proudly start spewing their bile from the stands. Why the protection?! If they want to show themselves up to the wider audience then I say let them!

[21.05.2016]

Why be glad Clarke has come out about it, Lennon highlighted it ages ago and nae **** took notice. Hibs didnae back him when the opportunity arose, its ****

Lennon was also absolutely right to come out publicly and call it out and certainly deserved more backing on it. However, as I stated, too many cowards in our game terrified to get on the wrong side of the OF.

[gillythehibby]

‘Rangers abhor sectarianism’ says the lying King.

Oh aye but they’ll happily whip up the hordes and twist the facts to bolster their victimhood narrative, which feeds a them and us mentality.

Sectarianism is their business model. They just know to avoid saying so explicitly.

And this from an organisation that sold Orange strips to hoardes !! ****bags !

[21.05.2016]

Eradicating sectarianism at Ibrox is never going to happen. As a club they owe their very existence to it.

There was opportunity when the old Rangers died for a new Board to come in and show some leadership and start afresh with a clean slate, but if anything, Sevco are more bigoted than the old version.

Sevco are worse if anything because they are still so so bitter at the clubs daring the have balls the not let "The Mighty Rangers" away with their years of cheating and waltz back into the top league as if nothing had happened. It was a hammer blow to their pride. There level os hatred is now totally new levels.

[HibeeHibernian4]

To anyone watching their game against Accies right now, are you finally understanding this?

A banner telling Steve Clarke to 'get well soon', and singing the same song that calls him a sad fenian ******** again.

All because he had the nerve to confront them about their sectarianism.

They are so clearly far and away worse than Celtic on this front, it's laughable to pretend otherwise. Rangers are not only sectarian, they revel in being sectarian and mock those who tell them they are sectarian.

It is Scotland's responsibility now to go after Rangers and curb this once and for all. Not try and appease them and pretend Celtic are as bad.

[heretoday]

Clarke is hardly the first to highlight the sectarian nonsense. Nothing has happened about it up till now and nothing will happen about it from now.

[Allant1981]

To anyone watching their game against Accies right now, are you finally understanding this?

A banner telling Steve Clarke to 'get well soon', and singing the same song that calls him a sad fenian ******** again.

All because he had the nerve to confront them about their sectarianism.

They are so clearly far and away worse than Celtic on this front, it's laughable to pretend otherwise. Rangers are not only sectarian, they revel in being sectarian and mock those who tell them they are sectarian.

It is Scotland's responsibility now to go after Rangers and curb this once and for all. Not try and appease them and pretend Celtic are as bad.

So you keep saying, does it matter if one is worse than the other(in your opinion)? Surely as a nation we should be stopping everyone from being like this, not just a point scoring thing saying one club is worse than the other

[HibeeHibernian4]

So you keep saying, does it matter if one is worse than the other(in your opinion)? Surely as a nation we should be stopping everyone from being like this, not just a point scoring thing saying one club is worse than the other

It matters when a good % of our country (and even this forum) still perpetuate the bad as each other myth.

Indirectly, it makes Rangers fans think they are okay to carry on because they are told 'Celtic are just as bad'.

I sincerely don't think it is point scoring, it's troubleshooting.

If you were a firefighter and you had two fires to put out, one was a blazing inferno and the other was a regular house fire, which one would you put out first? You wouldn't say 'well all fire is bad'.

[Hibernia&Alba]

It matters when a good % of our country (and even this forum) still perpetuate the bad as each other myth.

Indirectly, it makes Rangers fans think they are okay to carry on because they are told 'Celtic are just as bad'.

I sincerely don't think it is point scoring, it's troubleshooting.

If you were a firefighter and you had two fires to put out, one was a blazing inferno and the other was a regular house fire, which one would you put out first? You wouldn't say 'well all fire is bad'.

I agree Celtic fans don't indulge in the religious bigotry to the same degree (though they are guilty of it) and it's the IRA songs which is their biggest problem. The problem runs deeper at Rangers; many of their fans are raised to be fiercely anti-Catholic/anti-Irish. You only need take a look at Follow Follow and Rangers Media to see how often they mention religion as part of their affiliation to Rangers. Most of course, don't practice a religion; it's just a tribal identity.

[Jim44]

Gerrard has asked for the small number of Hun muppets who sing sectarian songs to stop. To even suggest numbers are small is a cynical token gesture. Does the clown, who has RC connections not even admit that there is a huge problem?

[Bostonhibby]

And before that
Celtic polytheistists 100% Catholic 0%
St Columba has a lot to answer forWhat about us atheists?

We never get anything.[emoji22]

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[The Modfather]

Gerrard has asked for the small number of Hun muppets who sing sectarian songs to stop. To even suggest numbers are small is a cynical token gesture. Does the clown, who has RC connections not even admit that there is a huge problem?

Think you are being a little harsh on Gerrard. I’ve not seen what he’s said, but if what you say is true he’s said more in less than a season than most others in Scottish football, have said in a long time.

The more people speaking out, however big or small the extent. the more it helps us to seriously tackle the problem.

[Sir David Gray]

To anyone watching their game against Accies right now, are you finally understanding this?

A banner telling Steve Clarke to 'get well soon', and singing the same song that calls him a sad fenian ******** again.

All because he had the nerve to confront them about their sectarianism.

They are so clearly far and away worse than Celtic on this front, it's laughable to pretend otherwise. Rangers are not only sectarian, they revel in being sectarian and mock those who tell them they are sectarian.

It is Scotland's responsibility now to go after Rangers and curb this once and for all. Not try and appease them and pretend Celtic are as bad.


It matters when a good % of our country (and even this forum) still perpetuate the bad as each other myth.

Indirectly, it makes Rangers fans think they are okay to carry on because they are told 'Celtic are just as bad'.

I sincerely don't think it is point scoring, it's troubleshooting.

If you were a firefighter and you had two fires to put out, one was a blazing inferno and the other was a regular house fire, which one would you put out first? You wouldn't say 'well all fire is bad'.

This time last week, a large number of fans were chanting "fat orange *******" at Kris Boyd, their fans were caught singing about Lee Rigby a couple of years ago, they continually sing songs in support of a terrorist organisation and they routinely embarrass the country around Remembrance Day.

Their songs/behaviour may not be as overtly anti-Protestant as the huns are anti-Roman Catholic but there is absolutely no doubt that they are just as bad as each other when it comes to this type of conduct.

[Jim44]

Think you are being a little harsh on Gerrard. I’ve not seen what he’s said, but if what you say is true he’s said more in less than a season than most others in Scottish football, have said in a long time.

The more people speaking out, however big or small the extent. the more it helps us to seriously tackle the problem.

I think his proximity to the culprits at every game might have given him a clearer idea, and certainly more than most, of the extent of the Sectarian abuse. Maybe the media microphones are exaggerating the volume of abuse and the problem is not so severe as some of us think it is. My sarcasm isn’t aimed at you, by the way.:greengrin

[hibsbollah]

What about us atheists?

We never get anything.[emoji22]

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

To a, sad polytheistic bassa, and a, sheet football teeee---eeem:party:

[Bostonhibby]

To a, sad polytheistic bassa, and a, sheet football teeee---eeem:party:[emoji23]

Aye but I'm an agnostic atheist.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[hibsbollah]

[emoji23]

Aye but I'm an agnostic atheist.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

Jeez that one's not going to scan easily:greengrin

[neil7908]

Think you are being a little harsh on Gerrard. I’ve not seen what he’s said, but if what you say is true he’s said more in less than a season than most others in Scottish football, have said in a long time.

The more people speaking out, however big or small the extent. the more it helps us to seriously tackle the problem.

The "small number" stuff is a favourite of the Scottish press. In reality, it's thousands of them. But anything to trivialise and play down the issue right?

Did the media talk about the "small number" of Hibs fans who went onto the pitch after the cup final? Of course not, it was exaggerated and played up to make Hibs look as bad as possible.

When sectarian singing comes along it's mute the mics and put our fingers in our ears. If anyone mentions it then play down as much as possible.

This isn't a dig at you BTW or even Gerrard per se, it's just the ongoing attitude Scottish football seems to have on the issue.

[neil7908]

The "small number" stuff is a favourite of the Scottish press. In reality, it's thousands of them. But anything to trivialise and play down the issue right?

Did the media talk about the "small number" of Hibs fans who went onto the pitch after the cup final? Of course not, it was exaggerated and played up to make Hibs look as bad as possible.

When sectarian singing comes along it's mute the mics and put our fingers in our ears. If anyone mentions it then play down as much as possible.

This isn't a dig at you BTW or even Gerrard per se, it's just the ongoing attitude Scottish football seems to have on the issue.

https://www.skysports.com/amp/football/news/11788/11646968/small-section-of-rangers-fans-repeat-abusive-steve-clarke-chant

This is what gets me wound up. "small number" is used 3 times, just in case the headline wasn't enough to be clear what the company line is. No mention of numbers around the original incident though. Wonder why...