PFA call for ban on plastic pitches in Scottish Premiership

[Carheenlea]

Be interesting to see where this goes.

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/competitions/premiership/ban-plastic-pitches-from-scottish-premiership-say-top-flight-players-1-4873087

[04Sauzee]

Hopefully we will see every club in the the top league in Scotland playing on grass

[HibbySpurs]

This is now a no brainer. The people most affected by there use are saying the don’t want to play on them as they are inconsistent and recovery from playing on them takes longer should see them outlawed from the top flight of Scottish Football.

Whilst I appreciate that the pitches can benefit clubs on a budget in multiple ways (I.e pitch can be used more for say community use creating revenue) and not just lower maintenance costs it is apparent that the use of plastic pitches is detrimental to both the actual skill and level of play on them they are also hurting players (in fact is there not a player who will simply not play on them due to previous knee injuries (name eludes me)).

This isn’t amateur, junior or semi-pro football we’ Talking about it is the pinnacle of the game in Scotland which is being affected.

Clubs should have grass pitches properly maintained and replaced as required to promote the highest possible level of entertainment for supporters whilst helping prevent injuries to players.

If a club can’t afford a decent grass playing surface then in my opinion the question really has to be asked if that club is on a solid enough financial footing to be playing in Scotland’s top flight?

[HoboHarry]

Just out of curiousity, out of all of our injuries this season, does anyone know what % were directly attributed to artificial pitches?

[ancient hibee]

Watching on TV it seems that some of the bad fouls at Kilmarnock are caused by the ball bouncing much higher that it does on grass catching out players who had started to put foot to ball.

[Brightside]

Hamilton and Livi will struggle tbh. Livi especially is a community pitch and used by hundreds of kids every week. SO as much as I'd like all the clubs to have decent grass pitches there is a down side at "grass roots" level.

[Onion]

Great idea. Sooner they get rid the better.

What do they do about hybrids ?

[Sioux]

Hamilton and Livi will struggle tbh. Livi especially is a community pitch and used by hundreds of kids every week. SO as much as I'd like all the clubs to have decent grass pitches there is a down side at "grass roots" level.

Its up to the local authorities to provide recreation venues, not pro football clubs.

[Real Emerald]

Hamilton and Livi will struggle tbh. Livi especially is a community pitch and used by hundreds of kids every week. SO as much as I'd like all the clubs to have decent grass pitches there is a down side at "grass roots" level.

I understand your concerns for the community and grass roots football but these are clubs in the top tier of Scottish football. If they can’t survive without plastic pitches they maybe should be playing in a different league structure. We really need to get our game looking like top class football and not some backwater of Europe operation. Look at the injuries all the clubs are having this season. No one knows what affects these pitches have had on the players bodies but I cannot remember a worse year for players of all clubs being out injured.

[JeMeSouviens]

Hamilton and Livi will struggle tbh. Livi especially is a community pitch and used by hundreds of kids every week. SO as much as I'd like all the clubs to have decent grass pitches there is a down side at "grass roots" level.

Is there not a full size plastic pitch next to Livi's ground? We (Scottish football in general) should be able to provide community facilities without them needing to be the home grounds of our top flight clubs!

[Antifa Hibs]

In top flight football pitches should be used only for matches. I noticed our's too looking a tad cut up on Saturday - assuming we trained on it during the colder days when East Mains frooze over?

Anyway if Livi, Killie and Hamilton want plastic pitches to maximise revenue then drop a division. Should be neowhere near top flight footballl.

Junior teams can afford to maintain grass pitches but professional clubs can't?

[scooby]

Is there not a full size plastic pitch next to Livi's ground? We (Scottish football in general) should be able to provide community facilities without them needing to be the home grounds of our top flight clubs!

Yes there is, one of my kids train on the main pitch twice a week, along with hundreds of other kids, it's probably a good source of income for Livi.
Have to agree that it is a poor surface though, and definitely not fit for the Scottish top flight.

[Keith_M]

Well done, I totally support this.

[green day]

Much though I would like everyone to be playing on the same surface it doesnt necessarily follow that grass = good and astro = bad...........Molde didnt seem to struggle on our grass despite plastic over there.

I dont think its as cut and dried as some think, would like to see some evidence before we start kicking teams out.

Also - good grass pitches are very expensive, Tynies new one was 7 figures, iirc?

And while ER may look ok at a distance, the surface grass layer is very thin, I get a good view from my seat in the West and pretty much the first slide tackle takes off the grass down to the mud.

[Michael]

Just out of curiousity, out of all of our injuries this season, does anyone know what % were directly attributed to artificial pitches?

How can you say an injury is directly cause by a plastic pitch?

[HoboHarry]

How can you say an injury is directly cause by a plastic pitch?
You can't and that's part of my issue with this subject. I hear lots of calls to ban the pitches because they cause injuries but no one ever mentions that players get injured on grass all the time. I would argue from my playing days that I would rather play on an artificial pitch in winter than some rock hard grass pitch. This whole subject seems to me to be a big red herring used to beat smaller clubs who have chosen to install artificial pitches for financial reasons.

[Brightside]

Its up to the local authorities to provide recreation venues, not pro football clubs.

Local authorities cant even provide decent grass public pitches. Its a major issue especially in Edinburgh

[Michael]

You can't and that's part of my issue with this subject. I hear lots of calls to ban the pitches because they cause injuries but no one ever mentions that players get injured on grass all the time. I would argue from my playing days that I would rather play on an artificial pitch in winter than some rock hard grass pitch. This whole subject seems to me to be a big red herring used to beat smaller clubs who have chosen to install artificial pitches for financial reasons.

I tend to agree with the injury side of it.

However, I do think that the top level of the sport should be played on grass. In the top league with better TV money the financial aspect shouldn't really come into the equation. Plenty of lower league teams get by with grass.

[HoboHarry]

I tend to agree with the injury side of it.

However, I do think that the top level of the sport should be played on grass. In the top league with better TV money the financial aspect shouldn't really come into the equation. Plenty of lower league teams get by with grass.
Ok, but why?

[Hibeesmad]

Outside Scotland are there any plastic pitches in any of the other top leagues around Europe?

[green day]

Outside Scotland are there any plastic pitches in any of the other top leagues around Europe?


See mine above - Molde

[Famous Fiver]

I played schools, boys club, under 21s, Edinburgh Amateur, Lothian Amateur, Maybury League, covering 30 years or so and never played a single competitive match on a plastic pitch. Every last one was on grass.

Trained on artificial, played 5s on artificial, and indoor 5s. Not the same game, in my opinion.

I am firmly in the grass only camp.

All senior clubs should have to provide a grass surface, in my opinion.

[SquashedFrogg]

Ok, but why?

Because it provides a natural playing surface for football?

Also, Tam McCourt wouldn't be where he is today playing on 4G!

[Real Emerald]

You can't and that's part of my issue with this subject. I hear lots of calls to ban the pitches because they cause injuries but no one ever mentions that players get injured on grass all the time. I would argue from my playing days that I would rather play on an artificial pitch in winter than some rock hard grass pitch. This whole subject seems to me to be a big red herring used to beat smaller clubs who have chosen to install artificial pitches for financial reasons.

I don’t think it’s cut and dried but the players are saying that recovery time is longer after playing on plastic and if that’s the case an injury on grass in the next game could have been because of the stress on muscles etc. from the plastic pitch days before. Who knows though!?

[HoboHarry]

Because it provides a natural playing surface for football?

Also, Tam McCourt wouldn't be where he is today playing on 4G!
I get that but football is also a business and smaller clubs have the right to exist whether we like it or not. To me the "****ty wee club who only get 2000 per game" is a daft one. I'd be happy to be proved wrong but it seems to me that some players and fans want the rules on plastic changed "just coz" instead of actually explaining specifically how the game would benefit......

[Bostonhibby]

Agreed. Long overdue. I'd ditch the ones that don't meet UEFA standards as well. All these wee pitches[emoji849]

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[blackpoolhibs]

Just out of curiousity, out of all of our injuries this season, does anyone know what % were directly attributed to artificial pitches?

My eyes have bled every time we've played on that bloody surface, so its a get rid from me.

[Beefster]

Its up to the local authorities to provide recreation venues, not pro football clubs.

I thought that Almondvale is owned by the council out there?

[hibbysam]

I get that but football is also a business and smaller clubs have the right to exist whether we like it or not. To me the "****ty wee club who only get 2000 per game" is a daft one. I'd be happy to be proved wrong but it seems to me that some players and fans want the rules on plastic changed "just coz" instead of actually explaining specifically how the game would benefit......

He gave you a benefit by saying the bounce and roll would be natural. Clubs who allow the 4G surfaces to dry out making bounces and roll horrendously inconsistent makes it very dangerous. Recovery time after an Astro game compared to a grass game is markedly longer, long term issues on joints is there for all to see. It’s not all about injuries there and then. Game looks and flows better results in a bigger audience and commercially more viable for broadcasting deals.

[where'stheslope]

The theory of grass V plastic pitches is simple, if you can afford grass you have grass pitch, if you can't, and want to make money from your pitch, you have plastic!

Once everyone has grass pitches, the next step is everyone must have hybrid pitches, and so it goes on!

There are more injuries to players that happen on grass pitches than on plastic, mainly due to there are more grass pitches?

It would be interesting to see if in the course of a season, the difference of Hamilton injuries on their pitch to ours at Easter Road!

[JeMeSouviens]

My eyes have bled every time we've played on that bloody surface, so its a get rid from me.

:agree: I'm sure there's been a good game on an astro at some point but I can't remember ever seeing one.

[Monts]

What are Hamilton's, killie's and livvy's injuries like this season compared to the rest of the league?

[Carheenlea]

:agree: I'm sure there's been a good game on an astro at some point but I can't remember ever seeing one.

Likewise - tackling is not the same on the surfaces and games are often tame affairs. Given how long artificial pitches have been with us, the improvement of the surfaces has been minimal given the number of years they’ve been around.

[Juniper Greens]

If the players say that they want rid of them, then who are we to argue? I imagine they know best. Like others have said, if this affects the bottom line for some clubs, then they should cut their cloth accordingly.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

I asked my physio at the time (around 3 years ago) who worked with the women’s SFA team whether the surface caused injuries (remembering the controversy in American Football).
There was a meeting at Hampden to discuss the number of injuries and the future of artificial pitches. The SFA looked at the evidence (Against) but went for - part of it would be based
on costs / revenue oops for the smaller clubs.

[judas]

I disagree. I genuinely feel that artificial pitches are the future.

They are already transforming youth football as the pitches are almost always playable. The bounce is more true and the flatness of them is better on ankles.

I don’t think the link to injury would stand up to proper scrutiny and if it did, then the next generation of pitches will be along soon.

[hibbysam]

I disagree. I genuinely feel that artificial pitches are the future.

They are already transforming youth football as the pitches are almost always playable. The bounce is more true and the flatness of them is better on ankles.

I don’t think the link to injury would stand up to proper scrutiny and if it did, then the next generation of pitches will be along soon.

The bounce certainly isn’t ‘more true’, literally differs every single time it bounces. It also isn’t better on joints as it’s brick solid underneath with no give.

[judas]

The bounce certainly isn’t ‘more true’, literally differs every single time it bounces. It also isn’t better on joints as it’s brick solid underneath with no give.

Disagree. Your comment on the bounce is at odds with the nature of, well, the natural world. . Grass pitches are not level by design. There are numerous undulations in the surface made worse by damaging contact incurred by anything that passes over it.

Also don’t find the new generation of pitches to be brick hard at all. Having played on a few, I find them to be pretty spongy. Most kids prefer them to grass and I think we can all agree that the wee blighters certainly are the future.

I do think that Livingston have misread the instructions regarding the application of rubber pellets. Far too many on their pitch. Not necessary at all.

[hibbysam]

Disagree. Your comment on the bounce is at odds with the nature of, well, the natural world. . Grass pitches are not level by design. There are numerous undulations in the surface made worse by damaging contact incurred by anything that passes over it.

Also don’t find the new generation of pitches to be brick hard at all. Having played on a few, I find them to be pretty spongy. Most kids prefer them to grass and I think we can all agree that the wee blighters certainly are the future.

They feel spongy, but what is the AstroTurf on? Concrete. Kids are unaware of what harm they’ll do to their body. I’ve never had any issues with grass, however turn to Astro and it does all sorts to your joints as there is no give and it’s very unforgiving on your body.

[Jones28]

Outside Scotland are there any plastic pitches in any of the other top leagues around Europe?

Aren't there loads in Russia?

[judas]

They feel spongy, but what is the AstroTurf on? Concrete. Kids are unaware of what harm they’ll do to their body. I’ve never had any issues with grass, however turn to Astro and it does all sorts to your joints as there is no give and it’s very unforgiving on your body.

It’s not concrete. There are several layers,the turf and infill, shock absorption, blinding a levelling layer and various layers of gravel right at the base.

Actually I think the only great argument against astro is an environmental one.

[Jack]

So if clubs with artificial pitches are saving/not spending as much as they would be if they had grass does that mean they can then spend more on players giving them an advantage over similar sized clubs that maintain a natural surface?

[Sylar]

I tend to agree with the injury side of it.

However, I do think that the top level of the sport should be played on grass. In the top league with better TV money the financial aspect shouldn't really come into the equation. Plenty of lower league teams get by with grass.

I've posted on a few such threads recently on this issue - there is NO scientific evidence to support the claims that these surfaces cause a greater incidence of injuries. Those studies that DID find a relationship presented their findings with the caveat that the newer surfaces with the black pellets (which Livingston, Killie and Hamilton all have) reduce the risk back down to zero.

We live in a Northern climate, where frozen and waterlogged grounds are common. Undersoil heating systems are extortionate to run, and the financial model of most clubs in the top tier preclude their installation and maintenance. Livi lost out last year with a number of their games being postponed during an (albeit) especially hard winter, and their already perilous financial situation from low crowds was hammered by losing games to midweek slots.

Every single club in the top flight has access to train and play on these surfaces - there are zero excuses for these clubs to try and blame artificial pitches for their inadequacies, and the evidence simply doesn't support player claims that they enhance injuries. If anything, they encourage slick, passing football and reduce the impacts of abnormal ball mechanics due to different depths of moisture or frozen ground on 'real' surfaces.

[Michael]

I've posted on a few such threads recently on this issue - there is NO scientific evidence to support the claims that these surfaces cause a greater incidence of injuries. Those studies that DID find a relationship presented their findings with the caveat that the newer surfaces with the black pellets (which Livingston, Killie and Hamilton all have) reduce the risk back down to zero.

We live in a Northern climate, where frozen and waterlogged grounds are common. Undersoil heating systems are extortionate to run, and the financial model of most clubs in the top tier preclude their installation and maintenance. Livi lost out last year with a number of their games being postponed during an (albeit) especially hard winter, and their already perilous financial situation from low crowds was hammered by losing games to midweek slots.

Every single club in the top flight has access to train and play on these surfaces - there are zero excuses for these clubs to try and blame artificial pitches for their inadequacies, and the evidence simply doesn't support player claims that they enhance injuries. If anything, they encourage slick, passing football and reduce the impacts of abnormal ball mechanics due to different depths of moisture or frozen ground on 'real' surfaces.

Yes, I also agree that the claims of increased risk of injury are dubious.

To be honest, I didn't realise how expensive undersoil heating was until I googled it there. Initially I thought it wouldn't be much different from heating a house, but it actually it's not really comparable.

But regardless, I think the general feeling is that the only reason artificial pitches are used in Scotland are due to the poor state of the game financially. In that sense it makes the game look a bit amateurish. At the end of the day, grass is the superior surface when you have the ability to invest in it properly.

[bigwheel]

I've posted on a few such threads recently on this issue - there is NO scientific evidence to support the claims that these surfaces cause a greater incidence of injuries. Those studies that DID find a relationship presented their findings with the caveat that the newer surfaces with the black pellets (which Livingston, Killie and Hamilton all have) reduce the risk back down to zero.

We live in a Northern climate, where frozen and waterlogged grounds are common. Undersoil heating systems are extortionate to run, and the financial model of most clubs in the top tier preclude their installation and maintenance. Livi lost out last year with a number of their games being postponed during an (albeit) especially hard winter, and their already perilous financial situation from low crowds was hammered by losing games to midweek slots.

Every single club in the top flight has access to train and play on these surfaces - there are zero excuses for these clubs to try and blame artificial pitches for their inadequacies, and the evidence simply doesn't support player claims that they enhance injuries. If anything, they encourage slick, passing football and reduce the impacts of abnormal ball mechanics due to different depths of moisture or frozen ground on 'real' surfaces.

As far as I am aware none of the studies have included playing and longevity of training on these surfaces, or the affects later in life of high intensity regular use of synthetic pitches..


Perhaps more importantly, professionals regularly say that they feel more sore after games on these surfaces, and recovery takes longer....a very common set of themes when you hear pros talk about these pitches..makes me feel there is a difference being experienced on them



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[HappyAsHellas]

Hamilton have survived in the premier league through an unfair advantage which is their crappy little pitch. Community use etc I just can't believe, do Killie really open their ground at night for a group of ten year olds to have a kick about? How much do they charge them? Does it cover the cost of the floodlights and staff?
Fitba is meant for grass - end off.

[IanM]

If you’re a top flight football club that can’t afford grass, you shouldn’t be a football club

[DetroitHibs]

If there was any truth to artificial pitches being better for the game and athlete's, then we'd see them in the EPL, La Liga and Serie A. The EPL and as far as I'm aware, Championship have all grass pitches and have the same weather as us. Grass has been and always will be the best conditions to play on.

[scottish_sleepy]

If we had the money in Scotland that all of the top nations have such as epl, championship, la liga etc then I'm sure we would all be able to afford fantastic grass pitches. If you look at some of the excuses for grass pitches we've had to play on over the past few years such as Pittodrie, Tannadice, tynecastle etc then it's no wonder some clubs have went down the artificial route. Celtic have a fantastic grass pitch because the have the money to install a hybrid pitch with all of the lighting equipment to help it grow throughout the year and a small army of groundstaff. Unfortunately most other clubs can't afford to do that. Imagine clubs saying to fans that we can't buy this or that new player because we're spending our money on extra groundstaff and fancy lighting rigs. I think it's just the players union reminding us they're still there 😁

[SChibs]

If there was any truth to artificial pitches being better for the game and athlete's, then we'd see them in the EPL, La Liga and Serie A. The EPL and as far as I'm aware, Championship have all grass pitches and have the same weather as us. Grass has been and always will be the best conditions to play on.

It's the best surface to play on if it's a good grass pitch. Give me a game on astro over a game on a mud bath or a dry bare pitch any day.

[DetroitHibs]

It's the best surface to play on if it's a good grass pitch. Give me a game on astro over a game on a mud bath or a dry bare pitch any day.

Can't argue with that, nothing worse than a dry bare pitch.

[Onceinawhile]

Livingston fc don't own their pitch though. Would they get permission to rip it up?

[Swedish hibee]

I don't feel the same as most on here as we have many in Sweden and the kids grow up on them- and they haven't held us back as a nation.

[HoboHarry]

I don't feel the same as most on here as we have many in Sweden and the kids grow up on them- and they haven't held us back as a nation.
Exactly, a lot of the complaining is based on nothing except pre-conceived prejudices and the need to complain. I'm certainly not seeing much in the way of scientific data......

[GreenCastle]

Hamilton have survived in the premier league through an unfair advantage which is their crappy little pitch. Community use etc I just can't believe, do Killie really open their ground at night for a group of ten year olds to have a kick about? How much do they charge them? Does it cover the cost of the floodlights and staff?
Fitba is meant for grass - end off.

Kilmarnock do lease it out and the Livi pitch was funded by the community foundation.

So you could argue it’s an unfair advantage as they apply for funding and that helps provide a new pitch. There will be maintenance costs.

Using a stadium to help community I’m not against and 3G pitches are good to help during winter months. But what I agree is the standard of 3G and grass.

Grass pitches aren’t always perfect and Easter Road last week against Raith was bumpy. Think back to Hearts last season and Motherwell when they both had awful pitches.

The key is the quality of surface and England are more strict hence you rarely see a bad pitch on TV as it affects the product.

[cocteautwin]

If a club can’t afford to maintain a grass pitch they should adjust their playing budget accordingly until they can afford it. If that means clubs like Hamilton and Livi become uncompetitive then it just puts them on a level playing field with other clubs in their position.

[patlowe]

I grew up playing competitively exclusively on grass but in my 20s and 30s have increasingly alternated between matches on grass and 4G - in my experience the artificial surfaces are far less forgiving on your body. Whether that's causing injuries (and my gut is that it contributes) or just general stiffness and soreness, there is absolutely a difference in the way your body reacts when playing on 3G/4G and you feel that in the following days after playing.

Having said that, I love playing on them. I personally find the surface conducive to good football, whereas matches on grass in this country so often descend into muddy battles played in the air. This will of course be less of an issue at the top level, where the grass pitches are in great nick. But in terms of future technical development, I certainly think kids will learn a lot more training on 4G than on a typical winter grass pitch. It may also be that younger guys who have grown up on these pitches are also physically better adapted to doing so, and my comments above will no longer apply in future.

[blackpoolhibs]

Exactly, a lot of the complaining is based on nothing except pre-conceived prejudices and the need to complain. I'm certainly not seeing much in the way of scientific data......

I have no pre conceived ideas on the surface, if its good enough then its fine by me. I think in years to come we will all be playing football on a synthetic surface.

My problem with it is i have not seen one good game where i have enjoyed it, either live or on tv and that is why i dont like it.

[CMurdoch]

I like to take a pragmatic rather than a prescriptive approach.
It's a bit like when the league made all clubs in the top league have 10.000 seats.
That was plain daft and the pitch argument is similar.
However, IMO a synthetic pitch with not many fans at the game makes our top league look Micky Mouse on the telly.

I see Kilmarnock as a team who will spend the vast majority of time in the top league.
Accordingly they should have a grass pitch.

Hamilton and Livingston are small operations which will spend the majority of their time in the 2nd tier and i would therefore allow them to have a synthetic pitch.

Common sense and a degree of pragmatism has to be applied.

[HoboHarry]

I have no pre conceived ideas on the surface, if its good enough then its fine by me. I think in years to come we will all be playing football on a synthetic surface.

My problem with it is i have not seen one good game where i have enjoyed it, either live or on tv and that is why i dont like it.
Nothing wrong with having that opinion BH. The problem that I see is that that is all the players are doing too - they are telling anyone who will listen that they should be banned but are offering no scientific data in addition to neglecting the fairly major issue of FIFA approving the pitches (as Steve Clarke himself has said). As usual the PFA are making a lot of noise and accomplishing nothing.

[Sylar]

Livingston's manager makes a fair point for me: if the SFA suddenly decide these pitches should be banned, the SFA should be paying the clubs that DO have them, the money required to rip them out and put in a new grass surface.

Because it was the SFA who allowed their installation in the first place (the change has to be approved by a committee) - if they suddenly change the goalposts and leave these clubs with no option but to replace them by demand, it should be up to them and not the clubs to fork up for it.

[Haymaker]

If there was any truth to artificial pitches being better for the game and athlete's, then we'd see them in the EPL, La Liga and Serie A. The EPL and as far as I'm aware, Championship have all grass pitches and have the same weather as us. Grass has been and always will be the best conditions to play on.

The epl and the football league are grass only.

Sutton United said they'd refuse promotion should they get it as they'd be required to take up their Astro.