Isis Terrorist’s moll want’s to return to Britain.......

[Jim44]

Pregnant woman who, with three other schoolgirls, went to join Isis in Syria, wants to return to Britain to have her baby.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/14/london-schoolgirl-who-fled-to-join-isis-wants-to-return-to-uk

Am I a hard-nosed barsteward for thinking ‘sod off. You made you bed, you don’t regret your actions and I assume you are still sympathetic to their cause’.

[Ozyhibby]

I can’t see any way that she is allowed back. She sounds like she only abandoned ISIS through cowardice rather than realising she made a mistake. She is a believer and I see no reason to allow her to return.


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[JeMeSouviens]

I can’t see any way that she is allowed back. She sounds like she only abandoned ISIS through cowardice rather than realising she made a mistake. She is a believer and I see no reason to allow her to return.


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Why should the people of the Middle East be left to deal with Europe's radicalised problem?

[James310]

Why should the people of the Middle East be left to deal with Europe's radicalised problem?

Would you be happy if she moved in next door to you and your family?

[JeMeSouviens]

Would you be happy if she moved in next door to you and your family?

I'd be happier if she was put in jail, tbh. But I don't see why impact of this person on the happiness of me and my family is more important than the impact on a family in Syria?

She's part of our mess, we should deal with it. How we do that is another discussion.

[hibsbollah]

Would you be happy if she moved in next door to you and your family?

That's how the story will get wrapped and delivered to us. The story is pure Fear Gold for the Tommy Robinson's.

It's a very complex and difficult question. She's British, she's a victim of brainwashing and child exploitation, probably rape, living in a refugee camp in the dead of winter, with two dead kids and the last remaining one ill. There's no evidence she was directly involved in any crime. She will be undoubtedly closely monitored by the security services if she does return home. But on the other hand there is an obvious heightened risk based on her previous life choices.

[James310]

That's how the story will get wrapped and delivered to us. The story is pure Fear Gold for the Tommy Robinson's.

It's a very complex and difficult question. She's British, she's a victim of brainwashing and child exploitation, probably rape, living in a refugee camp in the dead of winter, with two dead kids and the last remaining one ill. There's no evidence she was directly involved in any crime. She will be undoubtedly closely monitored by the security services if she does return home. But on the other hand there is an obvious heightened risk based on her previous life choices.

Is that a No then?

[hibsbollah]

Is that a No then?

It's a legal decision. As I said, very difficult to make. Gets to the heart of the balance between legal rights applying to everyone, regardless if we like the individuals or not, and public safety.

[Smartie]

I'd be happier if she was put in jail, tbh. But I don't see why impact of this person on the happiness of me and my family is more important than the impact on a family in Syria?

She's part of our mess, we should deal with it. How we do that is another discussion.

This is it for me.

I have absolutely no idea how we deal with it.

There is no acceptable solution as I see it, we have a hugely difficult situation brought about by her choices.

[Ozyhibby]

I'd be happier if she was put in jail, tbh. But I don't see why impact of this person on the happiness of me and my family is more important than the impact on a family in Syria?

She's part of our mess, we should deal with it. How we do that is another discussion.

She committed crimes in Syria, she shouldn’t be able to use her passport as a free pass to walk away from those crimes.
There is no need for us to take her back, so we shouldn’t. If she wants to turn her life around then she needs to do it in Syria.


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[hibsbollah]

She committed crimes in Syria, she shouldn’t be able to use her passport as a free pass to walk away from those crimes.


Is there evidence she commited crimes in Syria? I haven't read that anywhere.

[Ozyhibby]

Is there evidence she commited crimes in Syria? I haven't read that anywhere.

If she is a member of ISIS then I would think there is an element of joint venture in their crimes. It’s also unimaginable that she could survive in Syria for 4 years as a member of ISIS without committing crime. There is no economy there.


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[Hibrandenburg]

A safe sanctuary should be reserved for all those who are caught up in conflict or who are trying to escape it but not for those who are a part of the institution that caused it. If she returns then her child needs to be taken away from what is obviously still a source of radicalisation. We have to return to a system where those who are productive towards a peaceful society are rewarded and those who will destroy it reep no benefit from it.

[James310]

Is there evidence she commited crimes in Syria? I haven't read that anywhere.

Is not being a member of Isis illegal? So that would be a crime in itself.

[hibsbollah]

If she is a member of ISIS then I would think there is an element of joint venture in their crimes. It’s also unimaginable that she could survive in Syria for 4 years as a member of ISIS without committing crime. There is no economy there.


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But there's no evidence she has.

There will be lots of civilians living under ISIS controlled areas that have never committed a crime. There will be lots of spouses of fighters who haven't either.

[hibsbollah]

Is not being a member of Isis illegal? So that would be a crime in itself.

I don't know. If so, I suppose she may be technically breaking the law, but if you say 'she has committed crimes in Syria' that clearly implies more than that.

[Ozyhibby]

A safe sanctuary should be reserved for all those who are caught up in conflict or who are trying to escape it but not for those who are a part of the institution that caused it. If she returns then her child needs to be taken away from what is obviously still a source of radicalisation. We have to return to a system where those who are productive towards a peaceful society are rewarded and those who will destroy it reep no benefit from it.

If she is allowed back there is zero chance she is not going to jail for a long time. She will not be bringing up her baby.


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[CropleyWasGod]

Would you be happy if she moved in next door to you and your family?

I'm not sure it would be an issue for me.

In the first place, would I know?

Secondly, it's hardly likely that there would be a bomb factory, or the likes, in her house, given that she would be very closely watched.

My only worry would be if word did get out that she was living there. Then there's the likelihood of reporters, and right-wing nutjobs, traipsing over my garden.

[hibsbollah]

I'm not sure it would be an issue for me.

In the first place, would I know?

Secondly, it's hardly likely that there would be a bomb factory, or the likes, in her house, given that she would be very closely watched.

My only worry would be if word did get out that she was living there. Then there's the likelihood of reporters, and right-wing nutjobs, traipsing over my garden.

:agree:

I'm sure this is an issue that the Home Office would consider if she did apply for return (all academic at the moment since she would have to get out of Syria first). The likelihood of a media ****storm and her presence being used to motivate political extremism on both sides.

[Ozyhibby]

I'm not sure it would be an issue for me.

In the first place, would I know?

Secondly, it's hardly likely that there would be a bomb factory, or the likes, in her house, given that she would be very closely watched.

My only worry would be if word did get out that she was living there. Then there's the likelihood of reporters, and right-wing nutjobs, traipsing over my garden.

I think she is only going to jail anyway, so she won’t be living next door to anyone.


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[Fife-Hibee]

I think she is only going to jail anyway, so she won’t be living next door to anyone.


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But at the tax payers expense!!

(Future Daily Mail quote)

[Ozyhibby]

But at the tax payers expense!!

(Future Daily Mail quote)

Absolutely. Bringing her back is an absolute gift to the racist ****bags out there. I see no benefit to bringing her back when there are far more deserving cases.


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[Hibrandenburg]

Absolutely. Bringing her back is an absolute gift to the racist ****bags out there. I see no benefit to bringing her back when there are far more deserving cases.


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This.

[Future17]

Is not being a member of Isis illegal? So that would be a crime in itself.


I don't know. If so, I suppose she may be technically breaking the law, but if you say 'she has committed crimes in Syria' that clearly implies more than that.

ISIS is a proscribed organisation in the UK, so being a member is illegal.


I think she is only going to jail anyway, so she won’t be living next door to anyone.

There is zero chance of the Government "bringing her back"; the only way they'd have a decision to make is if she makes the boarding gate for a flight to the UK, or makes it somewhere where the UK would be obliged to offer consular assistance.

It's absolutely heartbreaking that two innocent young lives have been lost already and you have to fear for the future of the unborn child.

[speedy_gonzales]

She's British, she's a victim of brainwashing and child exploitation,
I'm not sure where the "brainwashing" comes from. I remember when her and her two friends disappeared. The school and families were desperate to get her back but there wasn't a massive suggestion they were leaving against their will.
Once it was realised the girls had left Turkey and made their way to Syria to tie up with Isis the Government and families soon quietened down.
Even today, she says she has no regrets.
I would argue she was a minor at the time and any actions she may have carried out or be associated with should be dealt with whilst considering her vulnerable status.

[hibsbollah]

I'm not sure where the "brainwashing" comes from. I remember when her and her two friends disappeared. The school and families were desperate to get her back but there wasn't a massive suggestion they were leaving against their will.
Once it was realised the girls had left Turkey and made their way to Syria to tie up with Isis the Government and families soon quietened down.
Even today, she says she has no regrets.
I would argue she was a minor at the time and any actions she may have carried out or be associated with should be dealt with whilst considering her vulnerable status.

None of the above reduces the likelihood she was groomed and brainwashed (however you define that). It makes it even more likely in fact.

[marinello59]

But there's no evidence she has.

There will be lots of civilians living under ISIS controlled areas that have never committed a crime. There will be lots of spouses of fighters who haven't either.

Exactly.
She's British, she should be allowed to return and if she has been guilty of criminal activity then she faces the consequences of that. It's not clear she is guilty of anything though.

[James310]

Your speculating though, unless you have proof she was brainwashed. Maybe she just believed in the cause and wanted to join them.

[hibsbollah]

Your speculating though, unless you have proof she was brainwashed. Maybe she just believed in the cause and wanted to join them.

I think there's plenty of evidence that most of these kids get radicalised/brainwashed online. It's usually extremely slick production and subtle. My knowledge based solely on a very good documentary on C4 i saw. But obviously, no, I don't know for sure.

[Tornadoes70]

I'm not sure it would be an issue for me.

In the first place, would I know?

Secondly, it's hardly likely that there would be a bomb factory, or the likes, in her house, given that she would be very closely watched.

My only worry would be if word did get out that she was living there. Then there's the likelihood of reporters, and right-wing nutjobs, traipsing over my garden.

Not all ordinary households are 'right wing nutjobs'.

I think most ordinary folk would be very concerned at such an alleged Isis fighter living in their community.

Some folk are so obsessed at arguing their agendas they wrongfully label ordinary folk who simply want to live among other ordinary working folk or work seekers without having nutjobs who join jihadi type fighter groups in their community.

I know a good few neighbours who'd be very unhappy at that prospect and I wouldn't label any of them 'right wing nutjobs'. Just ordinary everyday hard working law abiding folk.

[CropleyWasGod]

Not all ordinary households are 'right wing nutjobs'.

I think most ordinary folk would be very concerned at such an alleged Isis fighter living in their community.

Some folk are so obsessed at arguing their agendas they wrongfully label ordinary folk who simply want to live among other ordinary working folk or work seekers without having nutjobs who join jihadi type fighter groups in their community.

I know a good few neighbours who'd be very unhappy at that prospect and I wouldn't label any of them 'right wing nutjobs'. Just ordinary everyday hard working law abiding folk.

You've misread or misunderstood my post.

What I was suggesting was that, if it became known that alleged jihadis were living somewhere, they would be a target for "right-wing nutjobs" from OUTSIDE. ie that the Robinsonites would be quite happy to camp on their doorstep with their yellow vests and Muslamic nonsense....... with all the difficulty that would cause for the residents.

[Tornadoes70]

You've misread or misunderstood my post.

What I was suggesting was that, if it became known that alleged jihadis were living somewhere, they would be a target for "right-wing nutjobs" from OUTSIDE. ie that the Robinsonites would be quite happy to camp on their doorstep with their yellow vests and Muslamic nonsense.

:aok:

Fair dos mate.

No one would advocate that happening.

Happy to be corrected.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

[Lendo]

This story is a Daily Mail readers wet-dream.

[Fife-Hibee]

ordinary folk who simply want to live among other ordinary working folk

Problem with this is that these "ordinary folk" you are referring to, all share the same views, same political ideology, same race, same skin colour... etc. They don't like anybody who doesn't fall into their narrow band of ideals.

Your "ordinary folk" aren't ordinary folk at all. They have a zero tolerance policy for the slightest hint of diversity.

[CropleyWasGod]

Problem with this is that these "ordinary folk" you are referring to, all share the same views, same political ideology, same race, same skin colour... etc. They don't like anybody who doesn't fall into their narrow band of ideals.

Your "ordinary folk" aren't ordinary folk at all. They have a zero tolerance policy for the slightest hint of diversity.

Seriously?

It's very seldom that I agree with T70, but.......you're at the wind up, Shirley. :greengrin

[hibsbollah]

This story is a Daily Mail readers wet-dream.

Some sort of Jeremy Corbyn involvement would be a topper.

[Tornadoes70]

Problem with this is that these "ordinary folk" you are referring to, all share the same views, same political ideology, same race, same skin colour... etc. They don't like anybody who doesn't fall into their narrow band of ideals.

Your "ordinary folk" aren't ordinary folk at all. They have a zero tolerance policy for the slightest hint of diversity.

I don't need a lesson in diversity from snp supporters.

Labour were fighting for human rights and social justice across the world long before the nats got into holyrood.

Since when did diversity include Isis fighters?

[hibsbollah]

I don't need a lesson in diversity from snp supporters.

Labour were fighting for human rights and social justice across the world long before the nats got into holyrood.

Since when did diversity include Isis fighters?

Whoah there Dobbin.
I'm confused
Are the SNP in Isis now?

[JeMeSouviens]

Whoah there Dobbin.
I'm confused
Are the SNP in Isis now?

Another thread dissolves into pigeon chess. :rolleyes:

[Jim44]

Exactly.
She's British, she should be allowed to return and if she has been guilty of criminal activity then she faces the consequences of that. It's not clear she is guilty of anything though.

It’s highly unlikely that any concrete evidence of criminal activity will be found. I don’t think the authorities in Isis or former Isis controlled areas will have records or if they do, will be forthcoming with information. I think it’s acceptable to assume that a woman who marries and supports the ideals of an Isis terrorist (I believe he was a Dutch convert) is guilty by voluntary and, who knows, aiding and abetting association at the very least.

[Lendo]

Is there not some form of international No-Fly list that as a known ISIS member/associate should would be on make traveling back very tricky?

[stoneyburn hibs]

Probably a brainwashed child when she went. After spending four years there, she says that she has no regrets.

Would she have wanted to come "home" if ISIS were thriving in Syria?

[Pete]

I’ve not read much about it or heard any interviews but the way it’s being presented is that she has no regrets about going out there and she’s only coming back to take advantage of our wonderful welfare state and health system.

If that’s the case she can **** off as ISIS and their crimes turn my stomach. Not sure how anyone can legally stop her coming back as she is a British citizen.

[Pretty Boy]

My initial reaction was she can **** off. Her interview suggested zero remorse, she was still spouting the party line to an extent and she seemed regretful about nothing more than her own idealised vision of how her life would be not working out.

On the other hand it's hard to imagine someone who hadn't been radicalised and brainwashed to an almost unimaginable level actively choosing to go to Syria and join a group of religious extremists. Of course it could be argued she actively sought out the material that started her on that road but she was, to all intents and purposes, a child at the time. I don't really know where I stand on this; the idea a child should be left to die in a refugee camp because of the 'sins' of their mother and in turn a public desire for revenge against her doesn't sit well with me at all. At 19 she has probably seen things most of us will never encounter in our lifetime and I suppose the idea she could be integrated back into society and dealt with through due legal process is somewhat fanciful.

I struggle to take any position of certainty on this because it's a hugely emotive issue.

[Jack]

Is she even a UK citizen anymore? I thought we, the UK, had striped her of her citizenship.

On her part she ran away to join ISIS, a terrorist organisation, the 'enemy' rejecting everything the UK stands for. Even now she's not saying that was a mistake.

What normally happens to mercenaries when they're caught in the country they were trying to overthrow?

[Allant1981]

Seems like she only wants to come back because of her pregnancy, says she still has no regrets about leaving, yes she may have been brain washed, we will never know for sure, if she wasnt pregnant would people really say yes to bringing her back?

Legally she will be allowed back, if she does then it should be determined if she has actually done anything illegal

[Smartie]

Serious question (even though it may not sound it).

Is it true that treason still carries the death penalty in this country?

Not that I believe or want this, but if someone has defected to join an organisation as abhorrent as ISIS along with their threats against everything our country stands for, could an argument be made that treason had been committed?

Probably not due to her age, but if a male in his early 20s went to fight with ISIS then returned?

[Jack]

Serious question (even though it may not sound it).

Is it true that treason still carries the death penalty in this country?

Not that I believe or want this, but if someone has defected to join an organisation as abhorrent as ISIS along with their threats against everything our country stands for, could an argument be made that treason had been committed?

Probably not due to her age, but if a male in his early 20s went to fight with ISIS then returned?

Life imprisonment these days.

[Ozyhibby]

Serious question (even though it may not sound it).

Is it true that treason still carries the death penalty in this country?

Not that I believe or want this, but if someone has defected to join an organisation as abhorrent as ISIS along with their threats against everything our country stands for, could an argument be made that treason had been committed?

Probably not due to her age, but if a male in his early 20s went to fight with ISIS then returned?

Treason really hard to prove I think and def not in this case. Technically you can still get the death penalty although it would never happen.


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[James310]

A few on here saying she was a child when she left, I believe she was nearly 16.

Do you support the lowering of the voting age to 16 as 16 yrs old know their political mind at that age?

[heretoday]

She can come back but she's got to help picking raspberries in the fields.

We're going to need all the help we can get.

[hibsbollah]

She can come back but she's got to help picking raspberries in the fields.

:agree: Or if she can whip up a decent tikka masala much can be forgiven

[Slavers]

:agree: Or if she can whip up a decent tikka masala much can be forgiven

What if she straps a bomb to herself and blows it up at a pop concert?

Would you still forgive her?

[hibsbollah]

What if she straps a bomb to herself and blows it up at a pop concert?

Would you still forgive her?

Contempt. Deserves.

[Slavers]

A few on here saying she was a child when she left, I believe she was nearly 16.

Do you support the lowering of the voting age to 16 as 16 yrs old know their political mind at that age?

The answer to that for some is - if it means they can vote in a second brexit referendum or Scottish independence referendum in favour for remain or a yes vote then of course they should be allowed to vote.

However if they have to accept personal responsibility for joining a murderous Islamic death cult then no they are too young to know what they are doing.

[Slavers]

Contempt. Deserves.

Yes that's right it's ok for you to make pathetic sarcastic comments on a serious subject but when asked a real question on it you don't want to answer.

[chinaman]

Probably a brainwashed child when she went. After spending four years there, she says that she has no regrets.

Would she have wanted to come "home" if ISIS were thriving in Syria?
correct. i listened to her interview on the news and when she was asked if she had seen any executions ? she replied "no but she saw decapitated heads in bins"of allahs enemies and it didnt faze her

[DaveF]

Nah.

We have enough zoomers here already without letting this one return. Maybe a stray bullet will cart her off to her utopia and sort the problem out.

[hibsbollah]

Yes that's right it's ok for you to make pathetic sarcastic comments on a serious subject but when asked a real question on it you don't want to answer.

I haven't said I 'forgive her' anything. So your question is based on a false premise, which I'm sure is just an accidental misinterpretation on your part.

[Slavers]

I haven't said I 'forgive her' anything. So your question is based on a false premise, which I'm sure is just an accidental misinterpretation on your part.

So who did you mean that would forgive her for making a chicken tikka masala if it was not you?

You said it.

[Radium]

I think we would expect a foreign national who supported terrorism to be deported from the UK so we should take responsibility for our own who peddle it abroad.

Don’t know if she has broken any laws (would be surprised if she hadn’t).

There will legal and surveillance options available to the Home Office that can be used.

Not a brilliant situation but don’t think we should duck responsibility for UK citizens


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[hibsbollah]

So who did you mean that would forgive her for making a chicken tikka masala if it was not you?

You said it.

Someone who has the power to decide her immigration status.

I thought it was fairly obvious I wasn't talking about myself.

[Slavers]

Someone who has the power to decide her immigration status.

I thought it was fairly obvious I wasn't talking about myself.

How would you know if they would forgive her if she made a chicken tikka Masala?

It's outrageous to throw that kind of accusation at people who work in immigration.

Shameful.

[hibsbollah]

How would you know if they would forgive her if she made a chicken tikka Masala?

It's outrageous to throw that kind of accusation at people who work in immigration.

Shameful.

:faf: Best fake outrage ever. I hope those poor immigration workers can forgive my shocking shameful comments.

Youre not even a good troll.

[Slavers]

:faf: Best fake outrage ever. I hope those poor immigration workers can forgive my shocking shameful comments.

Youre not even a good troll.

Your so self conceited that you think your comment is perfectly fine.

You have no interest in addressing the problem you are only concerned with sarcy comments towards people who raise objections to Islamic terrorism.

I get it, it's easier that way and by doing so it allows you to maintain a moral high ground.

[Pretty Boy]

How would you know if they would forgive her if she made a chicken tikka Masala?

It's outrageous to throw that kind of accusation at people who work in immigration.

Shameful.

What a snowflake.

[makaveli1875]

Why should the people of the Middle East be left to deal with Europe's radicalised problem?

Oh **** off

[Slavers]

What a snowflake.

Owen Jones is that you?

[JeMeSouviens]

Oh **** off

You (literally) can't argue with reasoning like that.

[JeMeSouviens]

If she is a member of ISIS then I would think there is an element of joint venture in their crimes. It’s also unimaginable that she could survive in Syria for 4 years as a member of ISIS without committing crime. There is no economy there.


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Crime under what definition though? She's been living in nominally Syrian or Iraqi territory but actually controlled by ISIS and now Kurds. She's not exactly likely to face Syrian justice and even if she did the UK thinks the Syrian regime is so bad we've been actively trying to topple it for years. It's not like she's been arrested in France on her holidays.

The Kurds, where she is now, are struggling to impose some semblance of order in a land that Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Syria and their backers the US, Europe, Russia have decreed they are not allowed to form a de jure state. They have borne the brunt of the fight against a bunch of mediaeval fanatical ********s. The least we and the other Western powers should do is clean up our mess rather than allowing them to melt into the local population ready to cause havoc as soon as things start to calm down a bit.

[ronaldo7]

Your so self conceited that you think your comment is perfectly fine.

You have no interest in addressing the problem you are only concerned with sarcy comments towards people who raise objections to Islamic terrorism.

I get it, it's easier that way and by doing so it allows you to maintain a moral high ground.

His comment is perfectly fine by me, although I just want due process to be gone through, if she ever makes a British consul on her own steam.

🚂

[Ozyhibby]

Crime under what definition though? She's been living in nominally Syrian or Iraqi territory but actually controlled by ISIS and now Kurds. She's not exactly likely to face Syrian justice and even if she did the UK thinks the Syrian regime is so bad we've been actively trying to topple it for years. It's not like she's been arrested in France on her holidays.

The Kurds, where she is now, are struggling to impose some semblance of order in a land that Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Syria and their backers the US, Europe, Russia have decreed they are not allowed to form a de jure state. They have borne the brunt of the fight against a bunch of mediaeval fanatical ********s. The least we and the other Western powers should do is clean up our mess rather than allowing them to melt into the local population ready to cause havoc as soon as things start to calm down a bit.

I’m pretty sure she will be coming back now because her child will be British and is definitely innocent. The courts will ensure the child is protected.
Her chances of keeping the baby are almost zero though as she has already had two babies die on her and she will be going to jail. Whether the baby gets to stay with extended family or not is the question.


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[Pete]

If she does come back and go on trial for being a member of a terrorist organisation, here’s a case we can compare her situation to.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35460697

The above is worse IMO and she got six years with the potential to be out on licence after three. The judge had the cheek to say he hopes this acts as a deterrent.

Far, far too lenient, especially when it comes to this ideology.

[Mr Grieves]

As I've been slating Rees Mogg on another thread, and to offer some balance, I think he was spot on with what he said on question time regarding this.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiQ4a6D2b3gAhUKrxoKHdouDdEQzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.standard.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fworl d%2Fshamima-begum-mps-and-senior-police-voice-their-support-for-isis-bride-pleading-to-return-to-uk-a4067421.html&psig=AOvVaw0BzKzZUIMTQgFT1yaNLKfp&ust=1550318613773673

He's still a tool though

[Slavers]

His comment is perfectly fine by me, although I just want due process to be gone through, if she ever makes a British consul on her own steam.

🚂

That's no surprise to me Ronaldo.

[ronaldo7]

That's no surprise to me Ronaldo.

Good. Showing some consistency then, unlike some. 😂

[Ozyhibby]

If she does come back and go on trial for being a member of a terrorist organisation, here’s a case we can compare her situation to.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35460697

The above is worse IMO and she got six years with the potential to be out on licence after three. The judge had the cheek to say he hopes this acts as a deterrent.

Far, far too lenient, especially when it comes to this ideology.

She is out of jail already.


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[Bristolhibby]

Why should the people of the Middle East be left to deal with Europe's radicalised problem?

Quite. We are quite happy to “send em back” when its a foreign criminal.

Why shouldn’t the Syrian Government send her back.

As much as she hates us, she’s British. We can’t “strip” her nationality.

Get her back, stand trial, convict her through a court of law and if found guilty take the kid into care.

Also, pump her dry of intelligence regarding Daesh, and how she was radicalised / groomed.

Remember she was a child when she made her decision to leave the U.K.

J

[Bristolhibby]

Treason really hard to prove I think and def not in this case. Technically you can still get the death penalty although it would never happen.


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Death penalty was removed as a punishment a long time ago.

Being an EU member prevents it from ever coming back.

(Obviously post 29th March, it’s up to us). Why a modern civilised society would ever want to bring back Capital Punishment is beyond me though.

J

[speedy_gonzales]

Also, pump her dry

S'pose it's on a par with waterboarding :rolleyes:

[Bristolhibby]

What if she straps a bomb to herself and blows it up at a pop concert?

Would you still forgive her?

What happens if you do likewise? Can we forgive you?

MI5 will be all over her. She will be banned from having a phone, internet, etc.

It’s the ones we don’t know about that are the worry.

J

[lapsedhibee]

Death penalty was removed as a punishment a long time ago.

Being an EU member prevents it from ever coming back.

(Obviously post 29th March, it’s up to us). Why a modern civilised society would ever want to bring back Capital Punishment is beyond me though.

J

Trumpet currently slavering on the tellybox, apparently arguing for death penalty for drug dealers.

[beensaidbefore]

S'pose it's on a par with waterboarding :rolleyes:

👀👀🤣🤣

[Smartie]

Death penalty was removed as a punishment a long time ago.

Being an EU member prevents it from ever coming back.

(Obviously post 29th March, it’s up to us). Why a modern civilised society would ever want to bring back Capital Punishment is beyond me though.

J

http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_treason_in_the_United_Kingdom

Good old wikipedia - article on High Treason in the UK.

I left school in 1995 and was always under the impression that Treason carried the death penalty.

It seems this changed in 1998.

The section on "punishment" makes for interesting reading.

[Slavers]

What happens if you do likewise? Can we forgive you?

MI5 will be all over her. She will be banned from having a phone, internet, etc.

It’s the ones we don’t know about that are the worry.

J

I'm sure all I need to do is change religion and all will be forgive.

Seems to be the case is it not?

Your safe though I don't have that mindset where I'd blow myself up for an imaginary sky God.

Neither do I have the mindset of pandering to those that do.


I suspect you would pander to them.

[Bristolhibby]

I'm sure all I need to do is change religion and all will be forgive.

Seems to be the case is it not?

Your safe though I don't have that mindset where I'd blow myself up for an imaginary sky God.

Neither do I have the mindset of pandering to those that do.


I suspect you would pander to them.

Not pandering just applying the law. Regardless of race or religion.

Commit a crime. Stand trial by a jury of your peers.

Like it or not, she is British. There’s no way of stripping that off her. As others have pointed out why should Syria / The Kurds have to deal with our criminals?

J

[Slavers]

Not pandering just applying the law. Regardless of race or religion.

Commit a crime. Stand trial by a jury of your peers.

Like it or not, she is British. There’s no way of stripping that off her. As others have pointed out why should Syria / The Kurds have to deal with our criminals?

J

I want to point something out to you in regards to your previous post.

You said it's the ones we don't know about that pose the greater threat.

Now that statement and train of thought is so far detached from reality it's shocking that you would even type that.

Have you not been paying attention to the world around you?

Every single Islamic terrorist attack that has happened in the UK and the EU, the culprits had been previously known to the authorities.

Please tell me, how that fits with your statement it's the ones we do not know about that pose the biggest dangers to our civilisation?

[Colr]

In Britain we should be promoting a culture of tolerance and understanding.

Supportsers of IS are quite the opposite. She might be more at home looking for citizenship in Iran, Pakistan or Egypt.

[Just Alf]

I want to point something out to you in regards to your previous post.

You said it's the ones we don't know about that pose the greater threat.

Now that statement and train of thought is so far detached from reality it's shocking that you would even type that.

Have you not been paying attention to the world around you?

Every single Islamic terrorist attack that has happened in the UK and the EU, the culprits had been previously known to the authorities.

Please tell me, how that fits with your statement it's the ones we do not know about that pose the biggest dangers to our civilisation?You make a decent point but it's 'lost' as you've blanked the question?



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[Bristolhibby]

I want to point something out to you in regards to your previous post.

You said it's the ones we don't know about that pose the greater threat.

Now that statement and train of thought is so far detached from reality it's shocking that you would even type that.

Have you not been paying attention to the world around you?

Every single Islamic terrorist attack that has happened in the UK and the EU, the culprits had been previously known to the authorities.

Please tell me, how that fits with your statement it's the ones we do not know about that pose the biggest dangers to our civilisation?

Let me clarify. I guess they are like an iceberg. For the ones we know about, the tip, there’s a load that are watching the videos, talking and influencing their mates, plotting off line. Before becoming the top of the iceberg, ie known to the authorities.

At some point people go from unknown to known.

This woman will serve her time (if she gets back to the U.K.) then will be monitored. My concern would be the hundreds who read her story and sympathise with her viewpoint.

J

[hibsbollah]

In Britain we should be promoting a culture of tolerance and understanding.

Supportsers of IS are quite the opposite. She might be more at home looking for citizenship in Iran, Pakistan or Egypt.

Iran has been fighting AGAINST Islamic State in Iraq and Syria through Hezbollah. They are sworn enemies.

Egypt is a murderous SECULAR military dictatorship that persecutes any manifestation of political Islam these days.

There's not many countries a wife of an IS fighter would get a frostier reception than those two.

[Sir David Gray]

In Britain we should be promoting a culture of tolerance and understanding.

Supportsers of IS are quite the opposite. She might be more at home looking for citizenship in Iran, Pakistan or Egypt.

Islamic State promotes an extreme version of Sunni Islam, Iran is the unofficial home of Shia Islam and Islamic State considers anyone who practices Shia Islam to be an infidel so I don't think Iran would be a good move for her.

In terms of her coming back to the UK, I don't particularly want her back in the country any more than anyone else does but from a legal standpoint I don't think we have any choice.

She is a British citizen, as far as I am aware she does not hold citizenship of any other nation and under international law, it is illegal to make anyone stateless.

We'll just need to accept that she is coming back at some point but she will be under strict supervision for the rest of her life and if it can be proved that she has committed any crimes whilst in Syria, she should be in prison for a very long time.

[MagicSwirlingShip]

I think there's plenty of evidence that most of these kids get radicalised/brainwashed online. It's usually extremely slick production and subtle. My knowledge based solely on a very good documentary on C4 i saw. But obviously, no, I don't know for sure.

Can you remember the name of the documentary chap?

[The Pointer]

Not pandering just applying the law. Regardless of race or religion.

Commit a crime. Stand trial by a jury of your peers.

Like it or not, she is British. There’s no way of stripping that off her. As others have pointed out why should Syria / The Kurds have to deal with our criminals?

J
Her parents are Bangladeshi (I don't know if she was born here) and she's married to a Dutch covert. If the kid is born as soon as predicted it'll be in Syria and I don't see why we should spend a penny on someone who is against our country and culture and prefers to exist in a violent, medieval, terrorist-ridden environment. She turned her back on everything this country offers and now she wants to reap the benefits of the NHS and expects us - me, you - to pay. As she's been out the country more than two years I believe this precludes her from benefits in any case.

If she was a bloke I'm quite sure the treatment would be different and no-one would bother terribly much if he was offed. Trouble is, many of them are back here already.

We're not going to be sending a bizjet over there any time soon which is fine by me.

[heretoday]

Due process of law must be followed.

[Dinkydoo]

She left in 2015... she is now 19 years old.

So, a radicalised school-girl of 15 years old leaves the country to go join Isis, in the process loses two of her children, has almost certainly suffered some kind of physical abuse and decides that this life is not for her and would like to return to the UK with her unborn child.

We should be providing her with all the support she needs to get over this ordeal.

Then, if there is any accusation of crimes having been committedn, she should be tried like any normal member of society.

This is how you beat this kind of indoctrination. Not with more killing, not with an us v them mindset, but by being tolerant, supportive and the exact opposite of the evil ****s that these people believe we are. Prove them wrong.

[Ozyhibby]

She left in 2015... she is now 19 years old.

So, a radicalised school-girl of 15 years old leaves the country to go join Isis, in the process loses two of her children, has almost certainly suffered some kind of physical abuse and decides that this life is not for her and would like to return to the UK with her unborn child.

We should be providing her with all the support she needs to get over this ordeal.

Then, if there is any accusation of crimes having been committedn, she should be tried like any normal member of society.

This is how you beat this kind of indoctrination. Not with more killing, not with an us v them mindset, but by being tolerant, supportive and the exact opposite of the evil ****s that these people believe we are. Prove them wrong.

How can we just let her back in like that? Do we know anything about her capabilities? She may now be a seasoned fighter with considerable skills that could do us harm. She will likely get back in but if I was the govt I would fight to delay it as much as possible.


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[Sir David Gray]

Her parents are Bangladeshi (I don't know if she was born here) and she's married to a Dutch covert. If the kid is born as soon as predicted it'll be in Syria and I don't see why we should spend a penny on someone who is against our country and culture and prefers to exist in a violent, medieval, terrorist-ridden environment. She turned her back on everything this country offers and now she wants to reap the benefits of the NHS and expects us - me, you - to pay. As she's been out the country more than two years I believe this precludes her from benefits in any case.

If she was a bloke I'm quite sure the treatment would be different and no-one would bother terribly much if he was offed. Trouble is, many of them are back here already.

We're not going to be sending a bizjet over there any time soon which is fine by me.

No-one can deny any part of what you have posted here. However unless she holds citizenship of any other country, under international law it is illegal to make any person stateless, which stripping her of her British citizenship would do.

I don't like the thought of her coming back any more than anyone else but we can't just start ignoring international legal treaties that the UK has signed up to.

[lapsedhibee]

I don't like the thought of her coming back any more than anyone else but we can't just start ignoring international legal treaties that the UK has signed up to.
Could we not take back control by withdrawing from them all?

[Dinkydoo]

How can we just let her back in like that? Do we know anything about her capabilities? She may now be a seasoned fighter with considerable skills that could do us harm. She will likely get back in but if I was the govt I would fight to delay it as much as possible.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkShe is a UK citizen who, as a child, has been exploited, radicalised and experienced the loss of two of her children.

I'm not saying, let's give her a big ****-off house in the country at the expense of the tax payer and leave her to go about her business.

Just that we should show some compassion towards her for the ****-show she's been through. Follow the appropriate legal process, give her the support she needs, keep a close eye on her.

If it turns out she's an ISIS super spy then fair enough, we can proceed with the water-boarding.

[HappyAsHellas]

I'd let her back in if we were allowed to shoot on sight. She has no regrets, and the only reason she wants out is because isis are getting gubbed and she's bricking it. Do everything we can to keep her out. They have an absurd amount of males in these camps who were cooks and cleaners for isis and not many who regret their actions. I do understand that teenagers can be vulnerable to external circumstances and could maybe be drawn in by the exciting new world but she's had 4 years to suss it out and has no regrets. **** her.

[Mr Grieves]

I'd let her back in if we were allowed to shoot on sight. She has no regrets, and the only reason she wants out is because isis are getting gubbed and she's bricking it. Do everything we can to keep her out. They have an absurd amount of males in these camps who were cooks and cleaners for isis and not many who regret their actions. I do understand that teenagers can be vulnerable to external circumstances and could maybe be drawn in by the exciting new world but she's had 4 years to suss it out and has no regrets. **** her.

You want a woman who is 9 months pregnant to be shot? Seriously?

[DH1875]

You want a woman who is 9 months pregnant to be shot? Seriously?

I don't want her shot but I certainly don't want her back in this country. She is dangerous and I will tell you why, because she has no remorse and from what I can gather is still pretty much pro ISIS. Even with half a brain anyone else would be saying I'm sorry, I was brain washed, I was only 15, ISIS are ****, but not her. Even if she doesn't believe or think any of that its what any sane person would be saying inorder to get back. Just my opinion of course but as far ad I'm concerned she can either do one or come back here and do a life sentence while the baby goes to her family.

[overdrive]

Death penalty was removed as a punishment a long time ago.

Being an EU member prevents it from ever coming back.

(Obviously post 29th March, it’s up to us). Why a modern civilised society would ever want to bring back Capital Punishment is beyond me though.

J

I don’t think we can bring back the death penalty post-Brexit. We aren’t leaving the European Convention on Human Rights and that prohibits the death penalty. The ECHR is separate to the EU.

[makaveli1875]

She is a UK citizen who, as a child, has been exploited, radicalised and experienced the loss of two of her children.

I'm not saying, let's give her a big ****-off house in the country at the expense of the tax payer and leave her to go about her business.

Just that we should show some compassion towards her for the ****-show she's been through. Follow the appropriate legal process, give her the support she needs, keep a close eye on her.

If it turns out she's an ISIS super spy then fair enough, we can proceed with the water-boarding.

Show some compassion to someone that thinks bins full of severed heads is just a normal everyday thing. Your ****ing nuts man.

[lapsedhibee]

Show some compassion to someone that thinks bins full of severed heads is just a normal everyday thing. Your ****ing nuts man.
That's the spirit. Abuse anyone that has a different opinion.

[makaveli1875]

That's the spirit. Abuse anyone that has a different opinion.

Its hardly abuse it was a legit question

[McD]

Its hardly abuse it was a legit question


You didn’t ask a question, you made 2 statements, the second of which was abusive.

[Sir David Gray]

Its hardly abuse it was a legit question

I have sympathy with your general standpoint on this subject but nowhere in your previous post did you ask a question. You also called the poster "****ing nuts" which I would say is abusive.

[Allant1981]

Sure I read she has now given birth so will be even more desperate to get back to soft touch britain

[Pete]

You didn’t ask a question, you made 2 statements, the second of which was abusive.

I read it as a question...just without the question mark.

😏

[Callum_62]

I don't want her shot but I certainly don't want her back in this country. She is dangerous and I will tell you why, because she has no remorse and from what I can gather is still pretty much pro ISIS. Even with half a brain anyone else would be saying I'm sorry, I was brain washed, I was only 15, ISIS are ****, but not her. Even if she doesn't believe or think any of that its what any sane person would be saying inorder to get back. Just my opinion of course but as far ad I'm concerned she can either do one or come back here and do a life sentence while the baby goes to her family.

Mind, if I was still in a country where these murderous maniacs live., I probably wouldn’t be loudly proclaiming them as **** of the earth


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[Dinkydoo]

Show some compassion to someone that thinks bins full of severed heads is just a normal everyday thing. Your ****ing nuts man.You do realise that this is an ideaology we're fighting here.

How is saying; Well you wanted that when you were 15, so you can just **** off. Help change anyone's mind? All it does is reinforce an Us v Them mentality.

[Ozyhibby]

I don't want her shot but I certainly don't want her back in this country. She is dangerous and I will tell you why, because she has no remorse and from what I can gather is still pretty much pro ISIS. Even with half a brain anyone else would be saying I'm sorry, I was brain washed, I was only 15, ISIS are ****, but not her. Even if she doesn't believe or think any of that its what any sane person would be saying inorder to get back. Just my opinion of course but as far ad I'm concerned she can either do one or come back here and do a life sentence while the baby goes to her family.

Would her family get custody? One of their kids ran away to ISIS so I’m not sure they would be ideal for adoption.


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[makaveli1875]

You do realise that this is an ideaology we're fighting here.

How is saying; Well you wanted that when you were 15, so you can just **** off. Help change anyone's mind? All it does is reinforce an Us v Them mentality.

Were fighting sick *******s that think nothing of cutting folks heads off and leaving them lying around in bins . she doesnt want to come back because she was sickened by these barbarians , she wants to come home because her babies keep dying and she wants her latest 1 cared for on the NHS so yes she can **** off

[Jim44]

As reported, she has given birth and has now begged for sympathy. I hope we are not soft touches. She went out there to support and produce terrorists in that part of the world but knowing that the same criminals were planning and completing devastation in the UK. That makes her guilty of treason for a better word and if we are daft enough to let re-enter the UK, I hope they lock her up for life.

[hibsbollah]

Show some compassion to someone that thinks bins full of severed heads is just a normal everyday thing. Your ****ing nuts man.

She said she 'wasn't fazed' when she saw that. When she said that I think I had more sympathy, not less. Can you imagine how traumatised someone has to be to be 'not fazed' by seeing stuff like that? When you have disassociated yourself from normal emotions? It's similar to what happened when WW1 soldiers got PTSD. Your mind closes down to images that are unimaginable.
Thankfully most people's experience of living in a warzone is confined to watching a movie or playing Xbox. None of really knows how we would react.
I'm not sure how it relates to whether she should be allowed back into the country or not.

[Slavers]

It is known that if a person has no empathy for others then he is deemed a psychopath.

I think there is a similar mental illness on the opposite end of the spectrum where you have too much empathy for others.

Both equally a dangerous mindset.

[Callum_62]

As reported, she has given birth and has now begged for sympathy. I hope we are not soft touches. She went out there to support and produce terrorists in that part of the world but knowing that the same criminals were planning and completing devastation in the UK. That makes her guilty of treason for a better word and if we are daft enough to let re-enter the UK, I hope they lock her up for life.

Taking the emotional side away - can we stop a British citizen with no other citizenship re entering the UK?



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[hibsbollah]

It is known that if a person has no empathy for others then he is deemed a psychopath.

I think there is a similar mental illness on the opposite end of the spectrum where you have too much empathy for others.

Both equally a dangerous mindset.

You can 'think' it all you like. But no such mental illness exists. Making things up doesn't help.

[Slavers]

You can 'think' it all you like. But no such mental illness exists. Making things up doesn't help.

Why not and how do you know?

[Jim44]

Taking the emotional side away - can we stop a British citizen with no other citizenship re entering the UK?



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Probably not, but we can charge, try and convict them for crimes against the state. I’m no legal eagle but I fail to see that serious charges can’t be taken against her, prove their validity and convict her. After serving her sentence (long time I would hope) she might get out on parole if she showed remorse, which she seems short of at the moment.

[hibsbollah]

Why not and how do you know?

You're asking, How do I know that there isn't a 'mirror image' to being a pyschopath that involves being too empathetic, and that is somehow just as dangerous as being a psychopath? And this mysterious pathology has never been found in the field of psychology before, but you just think it exists?

Because I'm not an total idiot. And I don't believe in unicorns either.

[Callum_62]

Probably not, but we can charge, try and convict them for crimes against the state. I’m no legal eagle but I fail to see that serious charges can’t be taken against her, prove their validity and convict her. After serving her sentence (long time I would hope) she might get out on parole if she showed remorse, which she seems short of at the moment.

Agreed - she can be tried as a normal british citizen

Im already seeing the rise of Daily Mail type rhetoric on my FB feeds

But we need to abide by international
Law in the first instance




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[Slavers]

You're asking, How do I know that there isn't a 'mirror image' to being a pyschopath that involves being too empathetic, and that is somehow just as dangerous as being a psychopath? And this mysterious pathology has never been found in the field of psychology before, but you just think it exists?

Because I'm not an total idiot. And I don't believe in unicorns either.

I think your closed minded and from previous comments more than a little ignorant.

[hibsbollah]

I think your closed minded and from previous comments more than a little ignorant.

Im sorry you think so. But I'm not going to be open minded to things that I don't believe exist. If you can provide us evidence of this mysterious pyschological condition I'd be happy to hear it.

[RyeSloan]

You're asking, How do I know that there isn't a 'mirror image' to being a pyschopath that involves being too empathetic, and that is somehow just as dangerous as being a psychopath? And this mysterious pathology has never been found in the field of psychology before, but you just think it exists?

Because I'm not an total idiot. And I don't believe in unicorns either.

Unicorns exist...they are Scotland’s national animal ffs [emoji2957]

[Slavers]

Im sorry you think so. But I'm not going to be open minded to things that I don't believe exist. If you can provide us evidence of this mysterious pyschological condition I'd be happy to hear it.

I refer you to the story of the sage and the snake.

The person takes in an injured snake and cares for it till it is back to full health. The snake then bites the person who nursed the snake back to health.

The bitten person said why did you do this to me, for I cared for you nursed you to health.

The snake replies I am snake it's in my nature to bite you.

I think you get the moral of the story.

That's an example of too much empathy.

[hibsbollah]

I refer you to the story of the sage and the snake.

The person takes in an injured snake and cares for it till it is back to full health. The snake then bites the person who nursed the snake back to health.

The bitten person said why did you do this to me, for I cared for you nursed you to health.

The snake replies I am snake it's in my nature to bite you.

I think you get the moral of the story.

That's an example of too much empathy.

No it isn't. It's evidence of empathy employed in the wrong place.

Leaving aside your parable for a moment, it is completely valid to argue that there are limits to empathy, and that in the case of this woman, there should be laws to bar her from freedom of movement back to Britain.

You were arguing something very different earlier.

[Slavers]

No it isn't. It's evidence of empathy employed in the wrong place.

Leaving aside your parable for a moment, it is completely valid to argue that there are limits to empathy, and that in the case of this woman, there should be laws to bar her from freedom of movement back to Britain.

You were arguing something very different earlier.

Ok then I think you could apply the empathy in the wrong place to this situation.

[Dinkydoo]

Ok then I think you could apply the empathy in the wrong place to this situation.People can't be rehabilitated from mistakes they made when they are children?

[makaveli1875]

People can't be rehabilitated from mistakes they made when they are children?

She wasnt smoking behind the bike shed . she joined an organisation well known for brutally murdering people , gang rape , public executions and genocide . she was 15 which is plenty old enough to know that murder , genocide , gang rape and public executions are abhorrent

[Dinkydoo]

She wasnt smoking behind the bike shed . she joined an organisation well known for brutally murdering people , gang rape , public executions and genocide . she was 15 which is plenty old enough to know that murder , genocide , gang rape and public executions are abhorrentand which of these crimes has she been convicted of herself?

[Jack]

i refer you to the story of the sage and the snake.

The person takes in an injured snake and cares for it till it is back to full health. The snake then bites the person who nursed the snake back to health.

The bitten person said why did you do this to me, for i cared for you nursed you to health.

The snake replies i am snake it's in my nature to bite you.

I think you get the moral of the story.

That's an example of too much empathy.


aaarrrgggghhhh!!!!!! A talking snake!!!

[jonty]

aaarrrgggghhhh!!!!!! A talking snake!!!

at "sage and snake" i thought it was a hotpot recipe.

[Just Alf]

There's a song in there somewhere :greengrin



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[James310]

She was 'ok' with beheadings she just said on Sky news. Also had no regrets but we should have sympathy for her.

Although I do wonder if she maybe has learning difficulties after seeing her interview. If so I think that does change things.

[HappyAsHellas]

A young woman of 19 wants to come back home after living happily for 4 years with people who believe that the only thing to do with a non muslim is kill them. No exceptions, don't find out if they're decent people or not - just kill them, well a bit of torture and mutilation to lighten the mood a bit first, but you get the idea.
I want nothing to do with people of this ilk, and trying to rationale with them or understand them has been a glorious success so far has it?

[Jack]

I see Trump has stuck his oar in saying all these ISIS fighters should go back to their own countries to face the music.

Personally I don't think any of them should be allowed to leave Syria until the Syrian authorities have dealt with them according to the laws of that country.

[Hibrandenburg]

I've had a few days to think about this and can't help but think that those who think an Asian child that is groomed to accept a perverted form of Islam have themselves to blame are the same people who are raging at Asian men for grooming innocent children to satisfy the sexual perversion of some Asian men.

Also those who are outraged about the thought of the UK having to take back one of its citizens who is deemed undesirable in another country would be the first to go all gammon headed if a foreign country refused to take back a citizen that the UK wanted to repatriate.

Stinks of hypocrisy with a mild odour of racism.

[HappyAsHellas]

I view her in much the same way as i would view a nazi - utterly repugnant born of a deep hatred for all supremacists irrespective of colour or creed. I just want nothing to do with them whatsoever.

[makaveli1875]

and which of these crimes has she been convicted of herself?

Obviously none, but let's not lose sight of the fact that she ran half way across the world to join them knowing what they do, I can't wait to see what excuses you have for that

[CropleyWasGod]

I wonder if the UK intelligence services would actually be glad to get her back. She may well be a valuable source of information.

There may also be a potential propaganda value in her return and "redemption".

[Sir David Gray]

I wonder if the UK intelligence services would actually be glad to get her back. She may well be a valuable source of information.

There may also be a potential propaganda value in her return and "redemption".

Based on her interview she didn't really strike me as being someone who would be willing to be an MI6 informer.

[hibsbollah]

Based on her interview she didn't really strike me as being someone who would be willing to be an MI6 informer.

'They don’t have any evidence against me doing anything dangerous. When I went to Syria I was just a housewife, the entire four years I stayed at home, took care of my husband, took care of my kids. I never did anything. I never made propaganda, I never encouraged people to come to Syria.'

[CropleyWasGod]

Based on her interview she didn't really strike me as being someone who would be willing to be an MI6 informer.

Sky News questioning is one thing...... 😉

[Sir David Gray]

'They don’t have any evidence against me doing anything dangerous. When I went to Syria I was just a housewife, the entire four years I stayed at home, took care of my husband, took care of my kids. I never did anything. I never made propaganda, I never encouraged people to come to Syria.'

Are you agreeing with me by posting a quote from her or disagreeing?

[hibsbollah]

Are you agreeing with me by posting a quote from her or disagreeing?

Agreeing, broadly. She is obviously painting herself as a wife, no more no less. But I agree with Cropley that she will have info of interest to MI6.

[makaveli1875]

I've had a few days to think about this and can't help but think that those who think an Asian child that is groomed to accept a perverted form of Islam have themselves to blame are the same people who are raging at Asian men for grooming innocent children to satisfy the sexual perversion of some Asian men.

Also those who are outraged about the thought of the UK having to take back one of its citizens who is deemed undesirable in another country would be the first to go all gammon headed if a foreign country refused to take back a citizen that the UK wanted to repatriate.

Stinks of hypocrisy with a mild odour of racism.

It took you a few days to assume that people opposed to Isis terrorists returning to Britain are racist?

That's a good 1 even by holy ground standards

[Hibrandenburg]

It took you a few days to assume that people opposed to Isis terrorists returning to Britain are racist?

That's a good 1 even by holy ground standards


I don't think you'll find anyone on here that is ready to roll out the red carpet for her, what you'll find are people who understand the importance of abiding by international law and some hotheads who can't think of the consequences of not doing so because of their rabid hate for anyone brown or who is different. You obviously belong to the latter.

[Sir David Gray]

Agreeing, broadly. She is obviously painting herself as a wife, no more no less. But I agree with Cropley that she will have info of interest to MI6.

Yes she clearly wants everyone to believe that. I don't believe for one second that she's been out there for 4 years and hasn't engaged in any criminal activity.

Whether she is prepared to talk to what she obviously still considers to be the enemy is up for debate.

I'm not convinced that she is ready to open up to British authorities on the inner workings of Islamic State. I suppose it's the job of the security forces to soften her up though and encourage her to talk to them so we'll see.

[makaveli1875]

I don't think you'll find anyone on here that is ready to roll out the red carpet for her, what you'll find are people who understand the importance of abiding by international law and some hotheads who can't think of the consequences of not doing so because of their rabid hate for anyone brown or who is different. You obviously belong to the latter.

Absolute crap, I don't care what colour of skin a person has.

I don't want to see any British isis recruits back, don't give a **** if they are white, brown, pink, yellow or orange they can all rot in Syria or let Vlad have his way with them

[Hibrandenburg]

Absolute crap, I don't care what colour of skin a person has.

I don't want to see any British isis recruits back, don't give a **** if they are white, brown, pink, yellow or orange they can all rot in Syria or let Vlad have his way with them

You might not want to see them return but we have an obligation to take them. Think of the consequences if we don't.

Let's talk about grooming, do you think young girls who are groomed for sex by Asian men only have themselves to blame for cooperating?

[makaveli1875]

You might not want to see them return but we have an obligation to take them. Think of the consequences if we don't.

Let's talk about grooming, do you think young girls who are groomed for sex by Asian men only have themselves to blame for cooperating?

I think it's a bit disgraceful to conflate young girls being dragged off the streets and gang raped by grown men in their own neighbourhood to a 15 year old girl travelling half way round the world of her own free will to join Isis

[Jack]

You might not want to see them return but we have an obligation to take them. Think of the consequences if we don't.

Let's talk about grooming, do you think young girls who are groomed for sex by Asian men only have themselves to blame for cooperating?

Should they not be subject to Syrian law first?

[Hibrandenburg]

I think it's a bit disgraceful to conflate young girls being dragged off the streets and gang raped by grown men in their own neighbourhood to a 15 year old girl travelling half way round the world of her own free will to join Isis

I think you're a bit confused. The girls you mentioned weren't all dragged off the streets and gang raped. Most of them were groomed and made compliant by giving them drugs money or alcohol. It doesn't make the disgusting behaviour of their groomers any better, but they like you seem to think that if a young girl is naive enough to fall for their manipulation and comply then they somehow deserve what they get, or at least brown Muslim girls are.

[Hibrandenburg]

Should they not be subject to Syrian law first?

Yes, but if Syria decide they want nothing to do with a British citizen then she'll be on a UK bound plane. I travel between Gatwick and Venice quite a lot and for a while there was at least one deportee on each flight. Personally I don't think Syria will want to touch her with a barge pole unless they get British assurance that there will be no diplomatic conflict.

[makaveli1875]

I think you're a bit confused. The girls you mentioned weren't all dragged off the streets and gang raped. Most of them were groomed and made compliant by giving them drugs money or alcohol. It doesn't make the disgusting behaviour of their groomers any better, but they like you seem to think that if a young girl is naive enough to fall for their manipulation and comply then they somehow deserve what they get, or at least brown Muslim girls are.

Why do you keep bringing up skin colour, the problem here is the poison in her mind

[James310]

In all the extensive media coverage I don't think I have seen the word racism being used once to describe the hostility.

[Hibrandenburg]

Why do you keep bringing up skin colour, the problem here is the poison in her mind

Ok, let's call it poison in her mind if it makes it easier for you to comprehend. Why does the poison in her mind put there by evil men manipulating her make her more culpable than the young girls groomed to have sex with a paedophile gang?

[makaveli1875]

Ok, let's call it poison in her mind if it makes it easier for you to comprehend. Why does the poison in her mind put there by evil men manipulating her make her more culpable than the young girls groomed to have sex with a paedophile gang?

If you think being raped by gangs of men is in any way the same as joining isis then no I can't comprehend you.

For starters the girls that were victims of the rape gangs don't tend to go around blowing people up or stock piling severed heads in bins

[James310]

Ok, let's call it poison in her mind if it makes it easier for you to comprehend. Why does the poison in her mind put there by evil men manipulating her make her more culpable than the young girls groomed to have sex with a paedophile gang?

There is quite a bit of effort involved to secretly plan and execute an international trip to an outlawed country to join the the most notorious terror organisation in the world?

[Hibrandenburg]

There is quite a bit of effort involved to secretly plan and execute an international trip to an outlawed country to join the the most notorious terror organisation in the world?

Who does the planning though?

[James310]

Who does the planning though?

They stole family jewellery to pay for the trip. I am sure they were encouraged but I do think there is a definite case of these girls actively making their own free choices when compared to the girls who were targeted by the grooming gangs.

You can't see that?

[James310]

If you can't comprehend that vulnerable young girls (or boy's for that matter) can be manipulated to do things that are vile and disgusting by being indoctrinated to do so then it's because it doesn't fit your racist beliefs. I may get ticked off by admin for calling you a racist but so be it. You're a racist and every post you make just confirms that you're a hateful xenophobe and even though you constantly deny it, every post you make validates that fact.

So everyone who believes she should not be allowed back in the country is a racist? That's a lot of people in the UK to call racist.

Is the Muslim home secretary a racist for saying he would block her return?

[Hibrandenburg]

They stole family jewellery to pay for the trip. I am sure they were encouraged but I do think there is a definite case of these girls actively making their own free choices when compared to the girls who were targeted by the grooming gangs.

You can't see that?

And you can't see that a vulnerable 15 year old girl can't be manipulated to do the bidding of evil men, whether that be run away from home to join a terrorist organisation on the promise of personal benefit or go to derelict houses with older men on the promise of money, drink and drugs.

If you accept that one can be coerced then you have to accept that the other can too, even if one has brown skin.

[Hibrandenburg]

Wow don't hold back there. Anything else you want to throw in while your at it?

No, happy for now but somebody had to say it.

[Hibrandenburg]

So everyone who believes she should not be allowed back in the country is a racist? That's a lot of people in the UK to call racist

Only I'm not saying that am I?

[Allant1981]

Just seen the latest interview with her after giving birth, she is very cocky in it, something just doesn't sit right letting this girl back in, the home secretary says she may not get back in so not cut and dry

[James310]

And you can't see that a vulnerable 15 year old girl can't be manipulated to do the bidding of evil men, whether that be run away from home to join a terrorist organisation on the promise of personal benefit or go to derelict houses with older men on the promise of money, drink and drugs.

If you accept that one can be coerced then you have to accept that the other can too, even if one has brown skin.

But I am saying the victims of the grooming gangs never made decisions on the same scale as these girls who went to Syria. The girls were made into addicts and the only decision they had to make was where their next hit was coming from, which often meant having to sleep with these men. These other girls stole from their family to plan an execute an international trip to one of the most dangerous countries in the world to join the most famous and notorious terrorist organisation in the world.

We will agree to disagree there is a fairly significant difference.

[blackpoolhibs]

Would there be the same amount of sympathy here if this was a 19 year old male? :dunno:

[stoneyburn hibs]

Would there be the same amount of sympathy here if this was a 19 year old male? :dunno:

Probably if he gave birth 😁

[makaveli1875]

Simply because your outrage is reserved for those with dark skin. Your history of outrage at Muslim grooming gangs and your defence of Yaxley Lennon is well documented here, however not a peep about any other group or individuals who don't fit your racial profiling. Same goes for this latest source of your outrage, you can accept that innocent white girls can be manipulated and coerced into participating in heinous acts but the same doesn't apply to a 15 year old girl from a Muslim background and I'm the creepy ****er. :faf:

Iv never been outraged about skin colour or racial profiling so stop making **** up.
Girls being coerced into sex is a million miles away from running off to join isis and fine well you know it.

[One Day]

Absolute crap, I don't care what colour of skin a person has.

I don't want to see any British isis recruits back, don't give a **** if they are white, brown, pink, yellow or orange they can all rot in Syria or let Vlad have his way with them

I agree.

[CropleyWasGod]

Can I ask those who aren't keen on the woman returning if they would feel differently were it their own daughter, family member, friend etc?

[makaveli1875]

Can I ask those who aren't keen on the woman returning if they would feel differently were it their own daughter, family member, friend etc?

If 1 of my own kids went to Syria and got pregnant by an ISIS fighter then she would be dead to me and i wouldnt want her back in the country or anywhere near my house

[blackpoolhibs]

Probably if he gave birth 😁

:greengrin


If 1 of my own kids went to Syria and got pregnant by an ISIS fighter then she would be dead to me and i wouldnt want her back in the country or anywhere near my house

My thoughts too.:agree:

[Smartie]

If my daughter had run off to join ISIS and fallen pregnant, I'd be absolutely desperate to get her back in one piece.

[JeMeSouviens]

If my daughter had run off to join ISIS and fallen pregnant, I'd be absolutely desperate to get her back in one piece.

:agree:

The tough posturing stuff is easy to type here but ...

[Callum_62]

If 1 of my own kids went to Syria and got pregnant by an ISIS fighter then she would be dead to me and i wouldnt want her back in the country or anywhere near my house

Even if she had been brainwashed/manipulated?

[Lester B]

I think your closed minded and from previous comments more than a little ignorant.

Given some of the stuff you post on here, you have the temerity to post that?????:faf::faf::faf::faf::faf:

[Jack]

Jeez my daughter has a sevcovian as a partner. That's bad enough! She's a tough cookie though and she can't wait to take my granddaughter to Easter Road. I think there's more chance of dafty being brainwashed!

[CropleyWasGod]

If 1 of my own kids went to Syria and got pregnant by an ISIS fighter then she would be dead to me and i wouldnt want her back in the country or anywhere near my house

How would you feel about the child that has just been born?

[JeMeSouviens]

Jeez my daughter has a sevcovian as a partner. That's bad enough! She's a tough cookie though and she can't wait to take my granddaughter to Easter Road. I think there's more chance of dafty being brainwashed!

Deepest sympathies. :no way:

[makaveli1875]

How would you feel about the child that has just been born?

In all honesty id bring the child back and give it the normal life it deserves away from head lopping extremist bampots like its parents

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

There's a song in there somewhere :greengrin



Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Aye, Al Wilson classic! 🎶

[The Pointer]

In all honesty id bring the child back and give it the normal life it deserves away from head lopping extremist bampots like its parents

A "normal life" in Bethnall Green is maybe a little different from what I imagine our normal life is. Because of it's mother it will never have a normal life.

[James310]

She has called her baby Jerah who apparently was an ancient Jihadi warlord who massacred Jews.

It might be as common as Steve or Dave though, no idea.

[CapitalGreen]

A "normal life" in Bethnall Green is maybe a little different from what I imagine our normal life is. Because of it's mother it will never have a normal life.

What's different about life in Bethnal Green?

[CropleyWasGod]

She has called her baby Jerah who apparently was an ancient Jihadi warlord who massacred Jews.

It might be as common as Steve or Dave though, no idea.

... and is also the Hebrew word for "moon".

[Hibbyradge]

She has called her baby Jerah who apparently was an ancient Jihadi warlord who massacred Jews.

It might be as common as Steve or Dave though, no idea.

:faf:

Cool story from the Daily Mail.

I wonder if there have been any folk in history called James who had a less than savoury CV ...

Or Dave or Steve. :rolleyes:

[RyeSloan]

What's different about life in Bethnal Green?

Quite a lot compared to England as a whole of you look at the ethnic and religious mix.

https://www.towerhamlets.gov.uk/Documents/Borough_statistics/Ward_profiles/Bethnal_Green.pdf

[Hibrandenburg]

Iv never been outraged about skin colour or racial profiling so stop making **** up.
Girls being coerced into sex is a million miles away from running off to join isis and fine well you know it.

No it's not, people, especially young and naive people can be coerced into all sorts of ****. Religious cults, sex cults, death cults, drugs, murder, rape, child soldiers, robbery, extremist political groups, and any number of other sects. 15 year old children are particularly vulnerable because it's an age where they are rebelling against their parents and some against society in general. To single out one naive girl for your abomination is repugnant and devoid of any understanding of the power of indoctrination and grooming.

[makaveli1875]

No it's not, people, especially young and naive people can be coerced into all sorts of ****. Religious cults, sex cults, death cults, drugs, murder, rape, child soldiers, robbery, extremist political groups, and any number of other sects. 15 year old children are particularly vulnerable because it's an age where they are rebelling against their parents and some against society in general. To single out one naive girl for your abomination is repugnant and devoid of any understanding of the power of indoctrination and grooming.

Well she's certainly not showing any signs of regret when she's interviewed , the Manchester bombing was justified according to her . Thats not naive its disgusting

[Hibrandenburg]

Well she's certainly not showing any signs of regret when she's interviewed , the Manchester bombing was justified according to her . Thats not naive its disgusting

She's been living as an ISIS concubine for the last 4 years ffs, she's lost 2 kids, she's 1000s of miles from home, she's been surrounded by death and upheaval since being coerced away from home, how the **** can we judged what state of mind she is in by looking at a few clips from an interview carried out in a camp?

My gut reaction was also "she can get tae ****" but once you actually stop and think about how she's been played like a fiddle by people expert in coercion then you have to accept that she's not only guilty of joining a horrendous sect but also a victim of that same sect.

[James310]

From the BBC interview with her.

Ms Begum said she made the choice to go to Syria and could make her own decisions, despite being only 15 at the time. She said she was partly inspired by videos of fighters beheading hostages and also by videos showing "the good life" under IS.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47276572

[CropleyWasGod]

From the BBC interview with her.

Ms Begum said she made the choice to go to Syria and could make her own decisions, despite being only 15 at the time. She said she was partly inspired by videos of fighters beheading hostages and also by videos showing "the good life" under IS.

It might be more helpful if, rather than pulling out sound bites without context, the whole article could be referenced. That way, people can get a more balanced and nuanced basis on which to make their own judgement.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-47276572

[Sir David Gray]

She's been living as an ISIS concubine for the last 4 years ffs, she's lost 2 kids, she's 1000s of miles from home, she's been surrounded by death and upheaval since being coerced away from home, how the **** can we judged what state of mind she is in by looking at a few clips from an interview carried out in a camp?

My gut reaction was also "she can get tae ****" but once you actually stop and think about how she's been played like a fiddle by people expert in coercion then you have to accept that she's not only guilty of joining a horrendous sect but also a victim of that same sect.

She's said quite openly in her latest interview that she made her own mind up to travel to Syria.

You seem to be saying that we cannot really take anything out of what she's saying due to her being manipulated and brainwashed. Where is your proof that she has been brainwashed/coerced/groomed (whatever word you want to use) into joining Islamic State in Syria?

You have used some extremely inflammatory language to describe a fellow poster so it would be nice if you could perhaps back up your thoughts with some evidence.

How far does Shamima Begum need to go in your eyes before you will feel that she is overstepping the mark of being nothing more than a naive, impressionable young girl and is actually someone who is potentially dangerous, willingly supports terrorist activity and is responsible for those thoughts and her subsequent actions?

[JeMeSouviens]

She's said quite openly in her latest interview that she made her own mind up to travel to Syria.

You seem to be saying that we cannot really take anything out of what she's saying due to her being manipulated and brainwashed. Where is your proof that she has been brainwashed/coerced/groomed (whatever word you want to use) into joining Islamic State in Syria?

You have used some extremely inflammatory language to describe a fellow poster so it would be nice if you could perhaps back up your thoughts with some evidence.

How far does Shamima Begum need to go in your eyes before you will feel that she is overstepping the mark of being nothing more than a naive, impressionable young girl and is actually someone who is potentially dangerous, willingly supports terrorist activity and is responsible for those thoughts and her subsequent actions?

The two things in your last para aren’t mutually exclusive. Naive, impressionable and young are very common characteristics of the footsoldiers of political and/or religious violence.

[James310]

This was a headline in one of those spoof newspapers:

GIRL ACCIDENTALLY JOINS ISIS AFTER FLEEING TO ISIS AREA AND ASKING MEMBER OF ISIS IF SHE CAN JOIN ISIS.

[Hibrandenburg]

She's said quite openly in her latest interview that she made her own mind up to travel to Syria.

You seem to be saying that we cannot really take anything out of what she's saying due to her being manipulated and brainwashed. Where is your proof that she has been brainwashed/coerced/groomed (whatever word you want to use) into joining Islamic State in Syria?

You have used some extremely inflammatory language to describe a fellow poster so it would be nice if you could perhaps back up your thoughts with some evidence.

How far does Shamima Begum need to go in your eyes before you will feel that she is overstepping the mark of being nothing more than a naive, impressionable young girl and is actually someone who is potentially dangerous, willingly supports terrorist activity and is responsible for those thoughts and her subsequent actions?

I made some inflammatory remarks about an inflammatory poster, boo hoo. I stand by those remarks and if it gets me banned I'll still stand by them.

Nobody has still answered the question as to why Syria should have to deal with our mess, why should they have to tolerate an undesirable UK citizen that they didn't want there in the first place?

[Slavers]

I made some inflammatory remarks about an inflammatory poster, boo hoo. I stand by those remarks and if it gets me banned I'll still stand by them.

Nobody has still answered the question as to why Syria should have to deal with our mess, why should they have to tolerate an undesirable UK citizen that they didn't want there in the first place?

I think what you could be displaying is a form of inverse racism. Meaming that she has brown skin and is also a Muslim so she must be a victim and she must be saved rather than being held responsible for her own actions.

However in saying that I grudgingly accept that the UK may need to take her back and deal with her.

I also think that if she at least showed some remorse or denounced the Islamic ideology that she got into then people would be more willing to accept her coming back to the UK.

If she can make it back to the UK on her own accord and ask for forgiveness then we should take her back and apply the full strength of the law and that would likely mean jail and the new born being taken into care.

But how many kids are being brainwashed into Islamic beliefs? There must be hundreds of thousands in the UK alone.

[Jack]

I made some inflammatory remarks about an inflammatory poster, boo hoo. I stand by those remarks and if it gets me banned I'll still stand by them.

Nobody has still answered the question as to why Syria should have to deal with our mess, why should they have to tolerate an undesirable UK citizen that they didn't want there in the first place?

I suggested a number of times the Syrians should be dealing with her. I'm no expert on Syrian law but she must have committed a few crimes at a minimum level of accomplice.

As far as I'm aware most countries would apply their laws, impose punishment then deport the criminal.

[Hibrandenburg]

I suggested a number of times the Syrians should be dealing with her. I'm no expert on Syrian law but she must have committed a few crimes at a minimum level of accomplice.

As far as I'm aware most countries would apply their laws, impose punishment then deport the criminal.

That's a decision that lies with Syria, if they decide they want to deport her then she's on a plane home. For the UK then to refuse her entry would open a can of worms that would have lasting consequences. I'm guessing we extradite more than we repatriate so I might be wrong.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think what you could be displaying is a form of inverse racism. Meaming that she has brown skin and is also a Muslim so she must be a victim and she must be saved rather than being held responsible for her own actions.

However in saying that I grudgingly accept that the UK may need to take her back and deal with her.

I also think that if she at least showed some remorse or denounced the Islamic ideology that she got into then people would be more willing to accept her coming back to the UK.

If she can make it back to the UK on her own accord and ask for forgiveness then we should take her back and apply the full strength of the law and that would likely mean jail and the new born being taken into care.

But how many kids are being brainwashed into Islamic beliefs? There must be hundreds of thousands in the UK alone.

Maybe she will show remorse after a rehabilitation programme. As it stands she's been groomed at a young age and been indoctrinated for the last 4 years, she's known nothing other than ISIS in her short adult life. Having watched her interview in full I'm also not certain her elevator goes all the way to the top floor.

[Callum_62]

But how many kids are being brainwashed into Islamic beliefs? There must be hundreds of thousands in the UK alone.

Considering about 1/4 of the world follow it - yes probably alot and absolutely nothing wrong with that (leaving aside my dislike for all religion for the sake of free choice)

Im hoping you were referring to the ISIS style extreme “islam?”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[makaveli1875]

Maybe she will show remorse after a rehabilitation programme. As it stands she's been groomed at a young age and been indoctrinated for the last 4 years, she's known nothing other than ISIS in her short adult life. Having watched her interview in full I'm also not certain her elevator goes all the way to the top floor.

Your desperate to exonerate her of any blame for her actions . By the looks of it she was the ring leader of the 3 , she organised all the travel etc . She had watched videos of beheadings etc so it looks a little like she has manipulated the other 2 into going and i believe those 2 are now missing presumed dead . She was old enough to know what she was doing and clued up enough to know what goes on there . She managed to arrange for the 3 of them to go to a warzone , thats not an easy thing for anyone to do .

[JeMeSouviens]

I suggested a number of times the Syrians should be dealing with her. I'm no expert on Syrian law but she must have committed a few crimes at a minimum level of accomplice.

As far as I'm aware most countries would apply their laws, impose punishment then deport the criminal.

She isn't in "Syria" as such, as in an area controlled by Assad's government. She's in a camp set up by a Kurdish militia who have been the frontline of the fight against ISIS.

I'm sure the Kurds would love to set up a de jure Kurdistan to administer a proper rule of law. Slight problem in that none of the regional powers or their global backers (including the UK & EU) will allow it. :rolleyes:

[PeeJay]

Think the UK and (in my case) Germany expects to be able to deport "undesirables" or known terrorist sympathisers to their home country - so, Syria has the same right to expect the same from the homelands of the captured fighters.

The problem is much worse than simply the ignorant girl in this thread; there are more than 800 Jihadist fighters, sympathisers, accomplices who Syria also does not want within its borders and who the US does not want to have to deal with either. They come from the UK, Germany, Austria, Holland and elsewhere in Europe I dare say -


The UK cannot simply take away their UK passports by way of passport "deprivation through conduciveness to the public good" - not if it leaves the person concerned stateless.

So ultimately most of them will come home.

A course of "deradicalisation" will not work with most of the returnees, Begum certainly seems not to be remorseful. Many of the ISIS terrorist crimes will not be provable in our courts of law, although being a member of a proscribed organization should suffice for a sentence, surely? No doubt, they will be interrogated and ultimately be released from prison or released after a short term in prison ...

They may realise the errors of their ways and become good British citizens who are no longer "not fazed by decapitated heads in dustbins"

They may however chose to promote propganda of their "adventures" - radicalise others, and ultimately kill or help to kill innocent people in the UK and Europe.

Don't have any answers to this myself - I just fear the worst. Seems to me a few of the posters on here are too keen to defend someone they know nothing about, reducing it to a pathetic emotional level of mother and baby - makes me wonder who is being brainwashed and manipulated here?

No doubt we will find out some day in the future.

[Hibrandenburg]

Your desperate to exonerate her of any blame for her actions . By the looks of it she was the ring leader of the 3 , she organised all the travel etc . She had watched videos of beheadings etc so it looks a little like she has manipulated the other 2 into going and i believe those 2 are now missing presumed dead . She was old enough to know what she was doing and clued up enough to know what goes on there . She managed to arrange for the 3 of them to go to a warzone , thats not an easy thing for anyone to do .

I'm not desperate to do anything of the kind. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy involved in you believing innocent young white girls can be groomed and coerced into doing things that are odious but then according to you this young Muslim girl has to take full responsibility for her actions.

[makaveli1875]

I'm not desperate to do anything of the kind. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy involved in you believing innocent young white girls can be groomed and coerced into doing things that are odious but then according to you this young Muslim girl has to take full responsibility for her actions.

Its a damn strange way to try and make a point

[Hibrandenburg]

Its a damn strange way to try and make a point

Maybe so in your opinion but the point still stands.

[Smartie]

Think the UK and (in my case) Germany expects to be able to deport "undesirables" or known terrorist sympathisers to their home country - so, Syria has the same right to expect the same from the homelands of the captured fighters.

The problem is much worse than simply the ignorant girl in this thread; there are more than 800 Jihadist fighters, sympathisers, accomplices who Syria also does not want within its borders and who the US does not want to have to deal with either. They come from the UK, Germany, Austria, Holland and elsewhere in Europe I dare say -


The UK cannot simply take away their UK passports by way of passport "deprivation through conduciveness to the public good" - not if it leaves the person concerned stateless.

So ultimately most of them will come home.

A course of "deradicalisation" will not work with most of the returnees, Begum certainly seems not to be remorseful. Many of the ISIS terrorist crimes will not be provable in our courts of law, although being a member of a proscribed organization should suffice for a sentence, surely? No doubt, they will be interrogated and ultimately be released from prison or released after a short term in prison ...

They may realise the errors of their ways and become good British citizens who are no longer "not fazed by decapitated heads in dustbins"

They may however chose to promote propganda of their "adventures" - radicalise others, and ultimately kill or help to kill innocent people in the UK and Europe.

Don't have any answers to this myself - I just fear the worst. Seems to me a few of the posters on here are too keen to defend someone they know nothing about, reducing it to a pathetic emotional level of mother and baby - makes me wonder who is being brainwashed and manipulated here?

No doubt we will find out some day in the future.





I don't think there are any easy answers here, it is far from a straightforward situation.

We have to abide by International law, if we didn't do so then it would be catastrophic for us further down the line when we want to use it to our benefit - and it benefits us more than it costs us.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that we invite her back, give her a huge house for nothing to bring up her kids in, invite her husband along and allow her to continue her life without any form of repercussion (much as the Daily Mail and the like would have you believe).

Sometimes you have to have faith in your own legal system, your own law enforcement and the values of your own country. If she comes back we can assess what she has actually done that is against the law. She can be tried as appropriate and punished as appropriate. We can attempt to rehabilitate as appropriate. We can keep the beadiest of beady eyes on her and if she steps out of line she can be punished again and again and again, as appropriate.

It might work, it might not, I happen to think that with appropriate supervision she will pose no threat whatsoever. With appropriate supervision and the laws against this sort of thing in this country she's going to find it difficult to radicalise anyone. Stories of heads in bins, your mates being blown up and your children killed won't sound particularly appealing to anyone.

If she's left in Syria? The country where the whole ISIS growth was allowed to happen in the first place? Where she is free to influence anyone she likes in a collapsed, war-torn state? Where we can't watch her every move?

In my opinion she's a far bigger threat to the UK being left in Syria than she would be if she was brought home - and that it looking at it purely from the UK's perspective and without any thought to her or her child's wellbeing.

[G B Young]

No it's not, people, especially young and naive people can be coerced into all sorts of ****. Religious cults, sex cults, death cults, drugs, murder, rape, child soldiers, robbery, extremist political groups, and any number of other sects. 15 year old children are particularly vulnerable because it's an age where they are rebelling against their parents and some against society in general. To single out one naive girl for your abomination is repugnant and devoid of any understanding of the power of indoctrination and grooming.

I caught a few minutes of Question Time last week when this was being discussed and was expecting Jacob Rees Mogg to denounce this girl, but he was surprisingly sympathetic to her situation:

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/question-time-jacob-rees-mogg-surprises-audience-and-says-we-should-have-sympathy-for-shamima-begum/

[Hibrandenburg]

I caught a few minutes of Question Time last week when this was being discussed and was expecting Jacob Rees Mogg to denounce this girl, but he was surprisingly sympathetic to her situation:

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/question-time-jacob-rees-mogg-surprises-audience-and-says-we-should-have-sympathy-for-shamima-begum/

I dont normally agree with lord snooty on anything but he's bang on the money there. She's British, she's been indoctrinated, she's been abused and if she returns she'll have to answer to our justice system.

[CapitalGreen]

Quite a lot compared to England as a whole of you look at the ethnic and religious mix.

https://www.towerhamlets.gov.uk/Documents/Borough_statistics/Ward_profiles/Bethnal_Green.pdf

I've friends who live there and they love it. When I've stayed there when visiting them it didn't seem particularly "different" in anyway to any other metropolitan area of Britain.

[JeMeSouviens]

I don't think there are any easy answers here, it is far from a straightforward situation.

We have to abide by International law, if we didn't do so then it would be catastrophic for us further down the line when we want to use it to our benefit - and it benefits us more than it costs us.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that we invite her back, give her a huge house for nothing to bring up her kids in, invite her husband along and allow her to continue her life without any form of repercussion (much as the Daily Mail and the like would have you believe).

Sometimes you have to have faith in your own legal system, your own law enforcement and the values of your own country. If she comes back we can assess what she has actually done that is against the law. She can be tried as appropriate and punished as appropriate. We can attempt to rehabilitate as appropriate. We can keep the beadiest of beady eyes on her and if she steps out of line she can be punished again and again and again, as appropriate.

It might work, it might not, I happen to think that with appropriate supervision she will pose no threat whatsoever. With appropriate supervision and the laws against this sort of thing in this country she's going to find it difficult to radicalise anyone. Stories of heads in bins, your mates being blown up and your children killed won't sound particularly appealing to anyone.

If she's left in Syria? The country where the whole ISIS growth was allowed to happen in the first place? Where she is free to influence anyone she likes in a collapsed, war-torn state? Where we can't watch her every move?

In my opinion she's a far bigger threat to the UK being left in Syria than she would be if she was brought home - and that it looking at it purely from the UK's perspective and without any thought to her or her child's wellbeing.


Agree with this. And it's not just her, this is applicable to all the "foreign fighters" currently being held. Allowing them to melt into the background and organise underground in the Levant is far more dangerous (to the local situation and to us in the UK/the west) than repatriating them to their home countries.

For the ones coming to the UK the same principles of justice should apply as to anyone else. Imprisonment should be based on 3 strands:

- punishment
- danger to the public
- rehabilitation

[CropleyWasGod]

Agree with this. And it's not just her, this is applicable to all the "foreign fighters" currently being held. Allowing them to melt into the background and organise underground in the Levant is far more dangerous (to the local situation and to us in the UK/the west) than repatriating them to their home countries.

For the ones coming to the UK the same principles of justice should apply as to anyone else. Imprisonment should be based on 3 strands:

- punishment
- danger to the public
- rehabilitation

That last word is important IMO. If they can be rehabilitated, they can become role-models for younger people in danger of being radicalised.


(btw, i haven't heard the word "Levant" in years. Thought it had died out along with other colonial-era words like oriental :greengrin)

[JeMeSouviens]

That last word is important IMO. If they can be rehabilitated, they can become role-models for younger people in danger of being radicalised.


(btw, i haven't heard the word "Levant" in years. Thought it had died out along with other colonial-era words like oriental :greengrin)

Yeah, I was looking for a regional term since ISIS began seizing territory in Iraq and moved into Syria. The border is almost an insignificant detail, pretty much just a line on a map. De facto control swaps between Kurds, ISIS, Syrian rebels, actual Syrian and Iraqi government forces. In the early days of ISIS they were regularly referred to as ISIL - Islamic State in the Levant.

The idea that UK nationals there are subject to "Syrian law" is as ludicrous as it is simplistic.

[PeeJay]

With appropriate supervision and the laws against this sort of thing in this country she's going to find it difficult to radicalise anyone. Stories of heads in bins, your mates being blown up and your children killed won't sound particularly appealing to anyone.



Thanks for your reply - some fair points, yet she lived in the UK and she was still radicalised, so ...?

Anyway, I admire your optimism in thinking that the UK - which currently seems to be falling apart at the seams - can help to "bring her back into the fold" - let's hope that is the way it turns out ... I have my doubts

[HappyAsHellas]

I listened to an interesting radio interview with a woman who was one of the first to join ISIS and now lives in the states. She was saying that all this girl will have known is to tow the party line as it were, as she has no knowledge of anything else as no other opinions are allowed within the ISIS community. When she first got out, it took her not too long to realise what a foolish decision she had made and turned her life round accordingly. This comes with the caveat that she was a bit older and therefore more aware of her mistake from the outset.
Sadly, success stories like hers are not the norm as she herself admits. I can't help but think if the shoe were on the other foot would ISIS show compassion, or just kill them? While I understand that we want to show our system as more compassionate and therefore vastly superior to a bunch of murderous religious terrorists, there's still a part of me that thinks we're far better of leaving her be.

[Scouse Hibee]

British Citizenship to be revoked.

[Allant1981]

common sense has prevailed

[Hibbyradge]

British Citizenship to be revoked.

Where are you reading that?

Edit: Found it.

[cabbageandribs1875]

at last

Result

overjoyed

[Hibrandenburg]

British Citizenship to be revoked.

Well that will open a can of worms.

[Sylar]

Well that will open a can of worms.

It’s a direct violation of her Human Rights, is it not? This is a complex case that has clearly stirred strong emotions but surely we’re still bound by international law. Are the UK governmemt deeming her to be a “citizen” of Syria or do they consider the Islamic State to be something one can be a “citizen” of?

[makaveli1875]

It’s a direct violation of her Human Rights, is it not? This is a complex case that has clearly stirred strong emotions but surely we’re still bound by international law. Are the UK governmemt deeming her to be a “citizen” of Syria or do they consider the Islamic State to be something one can be a “citizen” of?

She was living and having babies with guys that chop peoples heads off and leave them in bins , human rights cant be too high on her list of priorites

[The Pointer]

Every cloud and all that. I can't believe the Government has finally realised it has a pair and hopefully won't be the last in that type of decision. Reality strikes.

Let's get on with things now although sadly I can't see her similarly influenced lawyer giving up.

[jonty]

So far its only her family that have claimed this in a tweet.
normally this stuff comes via lawyers doesn't it?

/edit BBC said family tweeted it, but lawyer has too.

[cabbageandribs1875]

So far its only her family that have claimed this in a tweet.
normally this stuff comes via lawyers doesn't it?


their lawyer has already said the family are disappointed with the decision

[stoneyburn hibs]

I didn't think they could revoke.

[cabbageandribs1875]

21717

[Pete]

So what state does she belong to now as nobody can be left stateless?

[cabbageandribs1875]

she's probably in a right state now

[Hibbyradge]

Posturing from the government, imo, and it'll go to court and be overturned.

Might be a nice chance to blame the EU though.

[Callum_62]

So we violate international
Law and thats a “result”

Suppose whenever western countries breach human rights or international law its all for the greater good [emoji848]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HappyAsHellas]

Perhaps she has dual nationality through her marriage?
Nah, let's just say we're wrong.

[Jim44]

[QUOTE=Sylar;5715457]It’s a direct violation of her Human Rights, is it not? This is a complex case that has clearly stirred strong emotions but surely we’re still bound by international law. Are the UK governmemt deeming her to be a “citizen” of Syria or do they consider the Islamic State to be something one can be a “citizen” of?[/QUOTE

In my book, it’s questionable what human rights murderers, criminals and terrorists are entitled to. If ‘International Law’ demands her return to the UK, fine, I don’t think we’ll be short of charges to put her away for the foreseeable future. The problem might be that if she is returned to us and is to be tried here, I think it’ll be difficult to find a jury capable of giving her a so-called fair trial.

[lapsedhibee]

Posturing from the government, imo, and it'll go to court and be overturned.

Might be a nice chance to blame the EU though.

Yup.

[Pete]

She also has Bangladeshi citizenship so removing her British one is possible.

On another note, I detest everything about IS but I’m not sure the papers are helping. She’s being quoted out of context quite a lot with one example being “Begum: Manchester bombing was justified”. If you listen to the interview, that’s not exactly what she meant and is a bit naughty.

She just sounds like a daft wee lassie.

[lapsedhibee]

Perhaps she has dual nationality through her marriage?
Nah, let's just say we're wrong.

A tad unlikely that she's filled in the Dutch forms and had them approved by the Dutch government.

[James310]

She has dual nationality. Bangladeshi as well according to reports.

[jonty]

their lawyer has already said the family are disappointed with the decision

Just seen that - BBC initially saying family had tweeted it.

[Sir David Gray]

Sky News reporting that she is also a citizen of Bangladesh which is why the UK can revoke her British citizenship.

I'm unsure what happens if the two countries that a person holds citizenship for want to revoke that status at the same time. Since it's illegal to make someone stateless, how do they make a decision as to which country has to keep them?

I'd imagine it's quite a rare thing to happen although i'm sure in cases like this where Islamic State members are starting to come back from Syria and Iraq it will probably be happening a lot. I don't believe the Bangladeshi government will want her in their country any more than the British government wants her here.

[lapsedhibee]

Sky News reporting that she is also a citizen of Bangladesh which is why the UK can revoke her British citizenship.

I'm unsure what happens if the two countries that a person holds citizenship for want to revoke that status at the same time. Since it's illegal to make someone stateless, how do they make a decision as to which country has to keep them?

I'd imagine it's quite a rare thing to happen although i'm sure in cases like this where Islamic State members are starting to come back from Syria and Iraq it will probably be happening a lot. I don't believe the Bangladeshi government will want her in their country any more than the British government wants her here.
If there's two citizenships then shirley the first country to revoke isn't breaking the law and the second country is?

[Sir David Gray]

If there's two citizenships then shirley the first country to revoke isn't breaking the law and the second country is?

What happens if they both process the application to revoke citizenship at the same time though?

It's possible the Bangladeshis weren't even actively aware that she was one of their citizens until the news broke tonight and may now be sorting out their paperwork to process the revoking of her citizenship.

[Slavers]

Maybe this is the best form of action?

As it would show potential a jihadist ok if you join a group like this then you could face loosing your UK citizenship. Forcing them to make a choice from the beginning, do I really want the life of a jihad or do I prefer the home comforts of the UK?

By not taking a hard line stance we could encourage more people to choose jihad as if the plan for world islamic domination fails then they always have the return to the UK option.

[lapsedhibee]

It's possible the Bangladeshis weren't even actively aware that she was one of their citizens until the news broke tonight and may now be sorting out their paperwork to process the revoking of her citizenship.

Too late then. Logically anyway.

[Hibbyradge]

Maybe this is the best form of action?

As it would show potential a jihadist ok if you join a group like this then you could face loosing your UK citizenship. Forcing them to make a choice from the beginning, do I really want the life of a jihad or do I prefer the home comforts of the UK?

By not taking a hard line stance we could encourage more people to choose jihad as if the plan for world islamic domination fails then they always have the return to the UK option.

I'd imagine that the home comforts of the UK are not high on the list of concerns for someone who wants to go to Syria to become an ISIS fighter or bride.