Apathetic To Politics

[The Modfather]

As someone very apathetic to politics who finds it hard to distinguish between any of the parties, what would you (of whatever political persuasion) do to win me round and potentially gain my vote?

I view the vast majority of politicians as self serving, who come from the same handful of schools and are utterly unrelatable, far less trustworthy. I genuinely feel like, after you cut through the bluster and noise, that there isn’t much that distinguishes any party, nor that there is any noticeable difference depending on who is in power. With Brexit showing politics at its worst, on all sides.

I enjoy reading the various political threads on here as there are a lot of posters who are far more knowledgeable than me that add to some interesting debates. However, the said same posters, but obviously not unique to them, can then put me off with the trivial point scoring or blinkered tunnel vision for their party.

Interested to hear other people’s thoughts.

[makaveli1875]

As someone very apathetic to politics who finds it hard to distinguish between any of the parties, what would you (of whatever political persuasion) do to win me round and potentially gain my vote?

I view the vast majority of politicians as self serving, who come from the same handful of schools and are utterly unrelatable, far less trustworthy. I genuinely feel like, after you cut through the bluster and noise, that there isn’t much that distinguishes any party, nor that there is any noticeable difference depending on who is in power. With Brexit showing politics at its worst, on all sides.

I enjoy reading the various political threads on here as there are a lot of posters who are far more knowledgeable than me that add to some interesting debates. However, the said same posters, but obviously not unique to them, can then put me off with the trivial point scoring or blinkered tunnel vision for their party.

Interested to hear other people’s thoughts.

I think you've hit the nail on the head . Theyre all their to push their own agenda .. None of them give a **** about whats best for the people they are elected to serve.

[Moulin Yarns]

I would encourage you to attend your local politicians regular surgery with some questions to ask about things that you have concerns about. Maybe housing, education, benefits.

Also do your own research on topics that interest you. There is a lot of information out there. For example http://allofusfirst.org

[hibsbollah]

As someone very apathetic to politics who finds it hard to distinguish between any of the parties, what would you (of whatever political persuasion) do to win me round and potentially gain my vote?

I view the vast majority of politicians as self serving, who come from the same handful of schools and are utterly unrelatable, far less trustworthy. I genuinely feel like, after you cut through the bluster and noise, that there isn’t much that distinguishes any party, nor that there is any noticeable difference depending on who is in power. With Brexit showing politics at its worst, on all sides.

I enjoy reading the various political threads on here as there are a lot of posters who are far more knowledgeable than me that add to some interesting debates. However, the said same posters, but obviously not unique to them, can then put me off with the trivial point scoring or blinkered tunnel vision for their party.

Interested to hear other people’s thoughts.


It's a good question. If you're talking about deciding how to vote in UK elections, I'd spend less time watching and reading about the personalities and the relentless spin and counterspin and instead read the party manifestos and look at what the policies actually are. I certainly wouldn't be persuaded by any of the crap on here:greengrin

But politics go far beyond the political parties; it's about where power lies. And power lies more and more away from nation States in the twenty first century and more in the hands of global business and institutions. Everytime you buy a Huawei phone instead of an iPhone, or use Amazon over a high street shop, or continue to buy your veg wrapped in countless wee plastic bags that end up at the bottom of the sea for the next 10,000 years, you're making a political decision. There's very few people that are truly 'apathetic to politics', they just define it differently.

The challenge for the future of democracy in a wider sense is to make these powerful global interests accountable. Or we just go back to feudal times where might is always right and how you vote will become totally irrelevant to anything.

[lapsedhibee]

Everytime you buy a Huawei phone instead of an iPhone … you're making a political decision.

What's the political decision you're making there?

[Moulin Yarns]

What's the political decision you're making there?

Whether to support American capitalism or Chinese capitalism

[The Modfather]

I would encourage you to attend your local politicians regular surgery with some questions to ask about things that you have concerns about. Maybe housing, education, benefits.

Also do your own research on topics that interest you. There is a lot of information out there. For example http://allofusfirst.org

Thanks for the links. I do already vote, although each time as likely to spoil my paper as I am to choose the least worse option available. Was more trying to kick off a general debate about politics and those of us who feel disconnected from it all and what, if anything, can be done.

I remember watching Jeremy Paxman interviewing Russell Brand a while ago. Brand, while not having any specific answers himself, was able to illustrate closer to my feelings that it’s the political system in need of change (changed to what is the million dollar question) with the parties and politicians a symptom not the cause.

[lapsedhibee]

Whether to support American capitalism or Chinese capitalism

Ta. Might be racist to choose something on whether it was American or Chinese, so I'd just go for the one backed by the most moral-value-ridden advertising campaign.

[Geo_1875]

Thanks for the links. I do already vote, although each time as likely to spoil my paper as I am to choose the least worse option available. Was more trying to kick off a general debate about politics and those of us who feel disconnected from it all and what, if anything, can be done.

I remember watching Jeremy Paxman interviewing Russell Brand a while ago. Brand, while not having any specific answers himself, was able to illustrate closer to my feelings that it’s the political system in need of change (changed to what is the million dollar question) with the parties and politicians a symptom not the cause.

You don't change the system by not voting unless you're willing to go full on anarchist. To do so you need to support and participate overtly violent action. Not going to happen nowadays.

[Smartie]

Thanks for the links. I do already vote, although each time as likely to spoil my paper as I am to choose the least worse option available. Was more trying to kick off a general debate about politics and those of us who feel disconnected from it all and what, if anything, can be done.

I remember watching Jeremy Paxman interviewing Russell Brand a while ago. Brand, while not having any specific answers himself, was able to illustrate closer to my feelings that it’s the political system in need of change (changed to what is the million dollar question) with the parties and politicians a symptom not the cause.

That counts for a lot.

None of it is straightforward, and many issues are a matter of opinion rather than fact.

I used to get a lift to football with a guy who worked for a political party and whose wife is now an MSP. I found that when I asked him questions (irrespective of how stupid) then I would get answers that I could relate to. That started to shape my opinions, and I went on to develop an interest.

One thing I'd also say about politics is that "ignorance is bliss". It's quite easy to get down about the world through the medium of politics. Brexit, Trump's America, the media filling our heads with images of migrants (which either make you want to help them or send them all back) its easy to get yourself down about it all.

I block it all out from time to time, and there is no doubt that I am happier when I do. There is no shame in not being all that interested.

Then you remember that folk have fought hard to earn the right to vote and realise that democracy works best if we all try hard to take part and understand our role in it.

And I'd also comment on how important it is not to define friendships and relationships by politics. Many of my best friends hold very different beliefs to me, and I don't think any less of them.

I would also say that pub debates, or lurking around as the usual suspects slug it out on here are perfectly valid pastimes and not to be dismissed.

[Fife-Hibee]

As someone very apathetic to politics who finds it hard to distinguish between any of the parties, what would you (of whatever political persuasion) do to win me round and potentially gain my vote?

I view the vast majority of politicians as self serving, who come from the same handful of schools and are utterly unrelatable, far less trustworthy. I genuinely feel like, after you cut through the bluster and noise, that there isn’t much that distinguishes any party, nor that there is any noticeable difference depending on who is in power. With Brexit showing politics at its worst, on all sides.

I enjoy reading the various political threads on here as there are a lot of posters who are far more knowledgeable than me that add to some interesting debates. However, the said same posters, but obviously not unique to them, can then put me off with the trivial point scoring or blinkered tunnel vision for their party.

Interested to hear other people’s thoughts.

You fall into the category of 'idealist' on the political spectrum. You want things to change, but you're not sure exactly what to change, or how those changes could be implemented in the real world.

[RyeSloan]

You fall into the category of 'idealist' on the political spectrum. You want things to change, but you're not sure exactly what to change, or how those changes could be implemented in the real world.

Not necessarily so.

I have plenty ideas on what to change and can see how these could be implemented but I see almost none of them put forward by the political parties.

Some of that comes from the fundamental paradox of democracy where you need to appeal to voters and get votes but to do so it’s often difficult to put forward concepts that may benefit the whole in the long term but may well prove rather unpopular in the short term or create significant numbers of ‘losers’.

So I find it almost impossible to vote for any of the parties for some of the reasons in the OP and a number of other reasons as well!

[Bangkok Hibby]

As someone very apathetic to politics who finds it hard to distinguish between any of the parties, what would you (of whatever political persuasion) do to win me round and potentially gain my vote?

I view the vast majority of politicians as self serving, who come from the same handful of schools and are utterly unrelatable, far less trustworthy. I genuinely feel like, after you cut through the bluster and noise, that there isn’t much that distinguishes any party, nor that there is any noticeable difference depending on who is in power. With Brexit showing politics at its worst, on all sides.

I enjoy reading the various political threads on here as there are a lot of posters who are far more knowledgeable than me that add to some interesting debates. However, the said same posters, but obviously not unique to them, can then put me off with the trivial point scoring or blinkered tunnel vision for their party.

Interested to hear other people’s thoughts.

I'm not sure anything can be done within the current system to change how people feel about politicians and how politicians behave. Perhaps PR would help but that's Turkey's voting for Xmas so I don't see it happening. I've left the country now so don't have a voice but I do still have opinions.
For me, real change could be brought about by Scotland becoming an Independent country. A big step yes but at least it would be Scottish politicians with Scottish interests at heart. I too can't be bothered by the scaremongers or on the other side the tubthumpers, for or against a particular party or political system. The truth is, until change happens, whether Brexit or Independence, nobody truly knows how it will be. The one certainty with Independence though it will be a fresh start without being dictated to by the Eton brigade etc. who you allude to.

[lapsedhibee]

For me, real change could be brought about by Scotland becoming an Independent country. A big step yes but at least it would be Scottish politicians with Scottish interests at heart.

It might be that, or it might be Scottish politicians with Scottish politicians' interests at heart. Just as the current UK shenanigans are not about the UK's best interests but the best interests of individual UK politicians and their parties.

[Bangkok Hibby]

It might be that, or it might be Scottish politicians with Scottish politicians' interests at heart. Just as the current UK shenanigans are not about the UK's best interests but the best interests of individual UK politicians and their parties.

Yes absolutely and as I said NOBODY can be sure about anything until it happens. However I was merely saying it's a possible route to change.

[The Modfather]

You fall into the category of 'idealist' on the political spectrum. You want things to change, but you're not sure exactly what to change, or how those changes could be implemented in the real world.

Was having a think to see if I could, no doubt very clunkily, illustrate some of my thoughts and ideas as to a starting point of what I’d Like to change. How practical or well thought out some of these are we’ll soon find out :greengrin

Accountability/Tracability

I’d look to change the way manifestos are delivered and judged against. I would make parties “show their working” in that they have to add quantifiable detail to how things will be achieved. “We will increase spending on X, by reducing spending on Y and here is the rationale”. That way we have transparency in what we are voting for and how it will be achieved. We then have facts to base elections on rather than rhetoric.

I would also look into practicalities of the electorate being able to hold MP’s to account and able to trigger a vote of no confidence or some such. I appreciate it would need a lot of thought so it wasn’t open to abuse by supporters of other parties etc. I know we do technically have that given some of Alastair Carmichael’s constituents opening a legal case to oust him after he was caught lying but to me it appeared that “the establishment” simply closed ranks in the form of the two judges who dismissed the case to de-seat him and gave him a wrap on the knuckles.

Politicians Culture

Is there anything more absurd than watching the House Of Commons live and watching a bunch of toffs sneer and make animal noises at each other. I’d do away with the likes of peerages where depending on who you were born to or who you know sets you up for life. I’d do away with the House Of Lords and change the House Of Commons set up. I know we technically have questions from the public, but let’s be honest they are only ever selected/raised out of self interest. I’d have some sort of live video feed from the public where they can directly ask MP’s and party leaders questions relating to everyday life. Those answering the questions would soon have to know their stuff to hand and and any wisyh washy answers with no substance or factual data (links back to my manifesto point above) wouldn’t work anymore.

I don’t like the way we are moving into decisions with diversity quotas in mind rather than who is the best candidate on merit. However there has to be a more accurate representation of the country than there is and always been. With those privately educated or from a handful of select schools vastly vastly over represented. The makeup of politics, and particularly the House Of Commons, should broadly reflect the social and economic make up of the country.

At the moment an option for “none of the above” on the ballot paper would be a start in capturing the mood of the disenchanted.

I’m sure those more erudite in politics than me will be able to pick holes in my ideas but that’s my thoughts on change as a starting point.

[Fife-Hibee]

I have plenty ideas on what to change and can see how these could be implemented but I see almost none of them put forward by the political parties

Probably because those ideas aren't as workable as you believe them to be. Once you really get into politics and find yourself in a position of responsibility where you actually have to impliment workable ideas. You find that many of those great ideas you had before aren't as implementable as you previously thought.

[Fife-Hibee]

Was having a think to see if I could, no doubt very clunkily, illustrate some of my thoughts and ideas as to a starting point of what I’d Like to change. How practical or well thought out some of these are we’ll soon find out :greengrin

Accountability/Tracability

I’d look to change the way manifestos are delivered and judged against. I would make parties “show their working” in that they have to add quantifiable detail to how things will be achieved. “We will increase spending on X, by reducing spending on Y and here is the rationale”. That way we have transparency in what we are voting for and how it will be achieved. We then have facts to base elections on rather than rhetoric.

I would also look into practicalities of the electorate being able to hold MP’s to account and able to trigger a vote of no confidence or some such. I appreciate it would need a lot of thought so it wasn’t open to abuse by supporters of other parties etc. I know we do technically have that given some of Alastair Carmichael’s constituents opening a legal case to oust him after he was caught lying but to me it appeared that “the establishment” simply closed ranks in the form of the two judges who dismissed the case to de-seat him and gave him a wrap on the knuckles.

Politicians Culture

Is there anything more absurd than watching the House Of Commons live and watching a bunch of toffs sneer and make animal noises at each other. I’d do away with the likes of peerages where depending on who you were born to or who you know sets you up for life. I’d do away with the House Of Lords and change the House Of Commons set up. I know we technically have questions from the public, but let’s be honest they are only ever selected/raised out of self interest. I’d have some sort of live video feed from the public where they can directly ask MP’s and party leaders questions relating to everyday life. Those answering the questions would soon have to know their stuff to hand and and any wisyh washy answers with no substance or factual data (links back to my manifesto point above) wouldn’t work anymore.

I don’t like the way we are moving into decisions with diversity quotas in mind rather than who is the best candidate on merit. However there has to be a more accurate representation of the country than there is and always been. With those privately educated or from a handful of select schools vastly vastly over represented. The makeup of politics, and particularly the House Of Commons, should broadly reflect the social and economic make up of the country.

At the moment an option for “none of the above” on the ballot paper would be a start in capturing the mood of the disenchanted.

I’m sure those more erudite in politics than me will be able to pick holes in my ideas but that’s my thoughts on change as a starting point.

I agree with pretty much all of this, but like yourself, i'm an idealist. In an ideal world, politicans would have no choice but to tell the truth. However, in the real world, there are no definitive truths. People believe their own set of truths, which is why we're all different.

[RyeSloan]

Probably because those ideas aren't as workable as you believe them to be. Once you really get into politics and find yourself in a position of responsibility where you actually have to impliment workable ideas. You find that many of those great ideas you had before aren't as implementable as you previously thought.

Ha ha not too condescending FH! [emoji23]

And glad you can make that judgement with no details whatsoever but you just bash on...

[Fife-Hibee]

Ha ha not too condescending FH! [emoji23]

And glad you can make that judgement with no details whatsoever but you just bash on...

Well considering you're the one claiming to have workable ideas. Shouldn't you be providing the details? I'm sure all those active politicians will be kicking themselves when you share these workable ideas with the world.

[hibsbollah]

Was having a think to see if I could, no doubt very clunkily, illustrate some of my thoughts and ideas as to a starting point of what I’d Like to change. How practical or well thought out some of these are we’ll soon find out :greengrin

Accountability/Tracability

I’d look to change the way manifestos are delivered and judged against. I would make parties “show their working” in that they have to add quantifiable detail to how things will be achieved. “We will increase spending on X, by reducing spending on Y and here is the rationale”. That way we have transparency in what we are voting for and how it will be achieved. We then have facts to base elections on rather than rhetoric.

I would also look into practicalities of the electorate being able to hold MP’s to account and able to trigger a vote of no confidence or some such. I appreciate it would need a lot of thought so it wasn’t open to abuse by supporters of other parties etc. I know we do technically have that given some of Alastair Carmichael’s constituents opening a legal case to oust him after he was caught lying but to me it appeared that “the establishment” simply closed ranks in the form of the two judges who dismissed the case to de-seat him and gave him a wrap on the knuckles.

Politicians Culture

Is there anything more absurd than watching the House Of Commons live and watching a bunch of toffs sneer and make animal noises at each other. I’d do away with the likes of peerages where depending on who you were born to or who you know sets you up for life. I’d do away with the House Of Lords and change the House Of Commons set up. I know we technically have questions from the public, but let’s be honest they are only ever selected/raised out of self interest. I’d have some sort of live video feed from the public where they can directly ask MP’s and party leaders questions relating to everyday life. Those answering the questions would soon have to know their stuff to hand and and any wisyh washy answers with no substance or factual data (links back to my manifesto point above) wouldn’t work anymore.

I don’t like the way we are moving into decisions with diversity quotas in mind rather than who is the best candidate on merit. However there has to be a more accurate representation of the country than there is and always been. With those privately educated or from a handful of select schools vastly vastly over represented. The makeup of politics, and particularly the House Of Commons, should broadly reflect the social and economic make up of the country.

At the moment an option for “none of the above” on the ballot paper would be a start in capturing the mood of the disenchanted.

I’m sure those more erudite in politics than me will be able to pick holes in my ideas but that’s my thoughts on change as a starting point.

I completely agree with the need for scrutinisation of manifesto promises. A manifesto should be a business plan and be measurable and accountable. To achieve this, you need a quality well resourced and independent civil service.

Personally, I see the ludicrous theatre of the shouting and grunting, 'black rod' the ceremonial aspect, quite fun and sort of irrelevant to the crisis of democracy we' re currently going through. But I get why people find it ridiculous and I wouldn't have a problem with a more modern theatre.

[adhibs]

As someone very apathetic to politics who finds it hard to distinguish between any of the parties, what would you (of whatever political persuasion) do to win me round and potentially gain my vote?

I view the vast majority of politicians as self serving, who come from the same handful of schools and are utterly unrelatable, far less trustworthy. I genuinely feel like, after you cut through the bluster and noise, that there isn’t much that distinguishes any party, nor that there is any noticeable difference depending on who is in power. With Brexit showing politics at its worst, on all sides.

I enjoy reading the various political threads on here as there are a lot of posters who are far more knowledgeable than me that add to some interesting debates. However, the said same posters, but obviously not unique to them, can then put me off with the trivial point scoring or blinkered tunnel vision for their party.

Interested to hear other people’s thoughts.

That's my biggest gripe which distances me from politics. You've highlighted it in terms of party supporters, but its politicians using it that really annoys me. I find the levels of faux outrage used to get one over each other completely embarrassing.

[Fife-Hibee]

I completely agree with the need for scrutinisation of manifesto promises. A manifesto should be a business plan and be measurable and accountable. To achieve this, you need a quality well resourced and independent civil service.

Personally, I see the ludicrous theatre of the shouting and grunting, 'black rod' the ceremonial aspect, quite fun and sort of irrelevant to the crisis of democracy we' re currently going through. But I get why people find it ridiculous and I wouldn't have a problem with a more modern theatre.

It's nowhere near that simple though. No party can put together a definitive manifesto, where every pledge is met or exactly what people expect it to be. The economy and future circumstances are too volatile for that to be possible. That's why promises put in manifestos are quite often vague and open to interpretation, as it gives the party the necessary leeway they need to make alterations to those pledges should they find themselves in power and in a situation where the original intent of the pledge is no longer implementable, which could be due to the present economic or social factors the country finds itself in.

The shouting and grunting is ludicrous, but you'll never see the end of that. It's the primal nature that exists in all of us and comes out during times when we feel that our views are being challenged.

It's the difference between idealism and realism. An idealist view on how the world should work, isn't the same as the world realisticly does and will continue to work.

[danhibees1875]

I have a fairly moderate interest in politics, verging on apathetic particularly compared to many of the frequent posters on here. I enjoy the odd bit off reading others opinions on matters from time to time though, so I try to keep up with the news and various threads on here.

I completely agree with the manifesto point The Modfather posted above, and I think I've posted similar in the past. There should be set criteria as a minimum requirement for manifestos; what they'll do on a variety of key areas and these should then be measurable and scrutinised half way through the sitting parties term and then again at the end. I've never once seen manifestos being looked back upon (although I've maybe just missed it!) and it just seems ridiculous.

I read the manifestos in as much detail as I could stomach last GE to guage whom to vote for, but in reality without a decent process to ensure parties are marked against these promises then it's a worthless exercise compared to just voting for the person whom you think is the best character to lead the way. :dunno:


It's nowhere near that simple though. No party can put together a definitive manifesto, where every pledge is met or exactly what people expect it to be. The economy and future circumstances are too volatile for that to be possible. That's why promises put in manifestos are quite often vague and open to interpretation, as it gives the party the necessary leeway they need to make alterations to those pledges should they find themselves in power and in a situation where the original intent of the pledge is no longer implementable, which could be due to the present economic or social factors the country finds itself in.

That's fine though - when looking back over your manifesto after 2/3 years you can say "This wasn't achieved do to x, and so y was priotised and the outcome was Z" - the general public can then decide from there if it's a reasonable outcome given circumstance or if you're just making excuses for failure.

[Fife-Hibee]

That's fine though - when looking back over your manifesto after 2/3 years you can say "This wasn't achieved do to x, and so y was priotised and the outcome was Z" - the general public can then decide from there if it's a reasonable outcome given circumstance or if you're just making excuses for failure.

Well that is what happens. Whether you deem their reasons as acceptable or not is simply down to you own point of view on the matter.

[hibsbollah]

Well that is what happens. Whether you deem their reasons as acceptable or not is simply down to you own point of view on the matter.

No, as I said you could have independent scrutinisers within the civil service with a regulatory/enforcement remit. It's not that difficult.

[danhibees1875]

Well that is what happens. Whether you deem their reasons as acceptable or not is simply down to you own point of view on the matter.

Formally? Where? Without any criteria - that I'm aware of - for what should go into a manifesto then I'm not sure how useful it would be... but I'm not aware of where there is a list of "here is what we promised" against "were they achieved/why not".

I did say I was borderline apathetic towards politics, so I wouldn't be surprised if I'm missing something like that somewhere. :aok:

[Fife-Hibee]

No, as I said you could have independent scrutinisers within the civil service with a regulatory/enforcement remit. It's not that difficult.

It is that difficult. There is no "independence" in the civil service. Pretty much everyone in the civil service serves poltiical party interests. Besides, would the public really be happy leaving it up to civil servants to decide whether the reasons a party gives are justified or not? What if you don't agree with their conclusion? Surely the public will decide for themselves at the ballot box?


Formally? Where? Without any criteria - that I'm aware of - for what should go into a manifesto then I'm not sure how useful it would be... but I'm not aware of where there is a list of "here is what we promised" against "were they achieved/why not".

I did say I was borderline apathetic towards politics, so I wouldn't be surprised if I'm missing something like that somewhere. :aok:

The scrutiny occurs in parliament. If a party fails to meet some of it's manifesto objectives, then it's hardly going to go unmentioned by opposition political parties. It's then up to you (the viewer) to decide for yourself whether the reasons for failng to do so were justified or not. You can then choose to punish that party at the ballot box.

[RyeSloan]

Well considering you're the one claiming to have workable ideas. Shouldn't you be providing the details? I'm sure all those active politicians will be kicking themselves when you share these workable ideas with the world.

The point was you made a sweeping assumption on my understanding if they were workable or not, prior to asking for any detail what so ever...so why don’t you tell me just why they are not since you appear to be able to judge them already?

[hibsbollah]

It is that difficult. There is no "independence" in the civil service. Pretty much everyone in the civil service serves poltiical party interests.

I can tell you from personal experience that this is absolute nonsense.

Unfortunately this thread, which was looking like being interesting, is going in the squabbly direction that the OP was talking about:tee hee:

[HappyAsHellas]

An ancient Greek philosopher (Aristotle?) reasoned that democracy was doomed to fail as the person seeking election will promise the people what they perceive as a good deal, only for someone else to offer more, until it becomes utterly unobtainable. This he said, would lead to a collapse of the system.
I have been voting for more than 40 years and find it increasingly difficult as all parties now try to get the floating voter and if it wasn't for the colour of their ties you wouldn't know who was who. I do remember voting for the Monster Raving Loony party who's manifesto pledged to build a statue of Tommy Steele in every major town in the country. I think that's the last time I voted for something that was truly obtainable.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Make your mind up by buying two papers on diametrically opposite sides of the argument for two months and make your mind up after that.

The Daily mail. Even the papers address on the inside pages is probably a lie, a fascist rag of the worst order which would probably campaign against dry cardboard boxes for homeless people.

The National. I fine example of the news in print standing up for truth and justice which is so socially aware it deliberately prints part of its Sunday issue in broadsheet format for the use of folk sleeping on park benches.

But as I say … make your own mind up :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

An ancient Greek philosopher (Aristotle?) reasoned that democracy was doomed to fail as the person seeking election will promise the people what they perceive as a good deal, only for someone else to offer more, until it becomes utterly unobtainable. This he said, would lead to a collapse of the system.
I have been voting for more than 40 years and find it increasingly difficult as all parties now try to get the floating voter and if it wasn't for the colour of their ties you wouldn't know who was who. I do remember voting for the Monster Raving Loony party who's manifesto pledged to build a statue of Tommy Steele in every major town in the country. I think that's the last time I voted for something that was truly obtainable.

What a picture you paint

[One Day Soon]

As someone very apathetic to politics who finds it hard to distinguish between any of the parties, what would you (of whatever political persuasion) do to win me round and potentially gain my vote?

I view the vast majority of politicians as self serving, who come from the same handful of schools and are utterly unrelatable, far less trustworthy. I genuinely feel like, after you cut through the bluster and noise, that there isn’t much that distinguishes any party, nor that there is any noticeable difference depending on who is in power. With Brexit showing politics at its worst, on all sides.

I enjoy reading the various political threads on here as there are a lot of posters who are far more knowledgeable than me that add to some interesting debates. However, the said same posters, but obviously not unique to them, can then put me off with the trivial point scoring or blinkered tunnel vision for their party.

Interested to hear other people’s thoughts.


One way and another I have had involvement in politics over time. My view is that there just are no simple answers - if there were we would have seen them before now in different countries at different times - there are imperfect systems, parties and politicians all of which get it variably right or wrong at different times.

I would say this though, the politicians don't elect themselves. Improving the politicians and parties starts with the electorate - the ones who don't bother and the ones who don't exercise their critical faculties. That gets harder and harder in the social media age of loads of information but not much value. Or as Springsteen sang, 57 channels and nothin' on...

[Fife-Hibee]

One way and another I have had involvement in politics over time. My view is that there just are no simple answers - if there were we would have seen them before now in different countries at different times - there are imperfect systems, parties and politicians all of which get it variably right or wrong at different times.

I would say this though, the politicians don't elect themselves. Improving the politicians and parties starts with the electorate - the ones who don't bother and the ones who don't exercise their critical faculties. That gets harder and harder in the social media age of loads of information but not much value. Or as Springsteen sang, 57 channels and nothin' on...

Does the information sent over social media really carry less value than what people were spoon fed by the MSM and the papers before social media? At least now, people are offered a variety of different perspectives and aren't simply told what they should follow.

[One Day Soon]

Does the information sent over social media really carry less value than what people were spoon fed by the MSM and the papers before social media? At least now, people are offered a variety of different perspectives and aren't simply told what they should follow.

Yes

[Fife-Hibee]

Yes

In what way? How can you trust what somebody on your TV screen is telling you anymore than somebody on your PC screen?

[One Day Soon]

In what way? How can you trust what somebody on your TV screen is telling you anymore than somebody on your PC screen?


Previously we had choices between relatively informed commentators of a variety of political hues to choose from. Their publications, their views and their politics were largely known and they were at least informed to some degree in their fields. Now we have every single idiot under the sun with a vehicle to spout crap - and it is largely uncritically accepted as being factual simply because it appears electronically.

We have moved from arenas of public debate, disagreement and discourse to vast networks of stupidity echo chambers. Brexit is the most obvious example. Utter pish and outright lies presented as facts and truth, playing to people's fears and prejudices with no meaningful corrective available.

That wee dick who owns Facebook for a start has a lot to answer for and I don't think we know even half of what they've been involved in to date.

I think the best analogy here would be a boxing match. Previously you would see two boxers, they would fight in a defined space according to rules and with a referee. There would be a clear outcome.

Now there's no ring, everyone is involved in the fight, there's no referee and there's no result. **** knows where the real boxers are in that crowd and who the better fighter is because no one cares anyway since now everyone is a boxer.

[steakbake]

Previously we had choices between relatively informed commentators of a variety of political hues to choose from. Their publications, their views and their politics were largely known and they were at least informed to some degree in their fields. Now we have every single idiot under the sun with a vehicle to spout crap - and it is largely uncritically accepted as being factual simply because it appears electronically.

We have moved from arenas of public debate, disagreement and discourse to vast networks of stupidity echo chambers. Brexit is the most obvious example. Utter pish and outright lies presented as facts and truth, playing to people's fears and prejudices with no meaningful corrective available.

That wee dick who owns Facebook for a start has a lot to answer for and I don't think we know even half of what they've been involved in to date.

I think the best analogy here would be a boxing match. Previously you would see two boxers, they would fight in a defined space according to rules and with a referee. There would be a clear outcome.

Now there's no ring, everyone is involved in the fight, there's no referee and there's no result. **** knows where the real boxers are in that crowd and who the better fighter is because no one cares anyway since now everyone is a boxer.

Totally agree with this.

Also find people's attention span and their acceptance of and ability to imagine and work with nuance is lost in the social media age.

Twitter/Facebook etc are reaction chambers. Life is a myriad shade of greys (certainly far more than 50) and really nothing is every entirely one way or the other. However, to cut through, in short staccato social media messages, nuance goes totally out the window.

Debate, compromise, finding some kind of a reasonable middle ground are all lost to shrieking offence and outrage.

Add to this the idea that absolutely everyone's opinion counts completely uniformly and we're in a bad way.

Sometimes I wish they'd switch off the internet for a couple of weeks - I'm sure we'd see people chill the f*** out.

[Fife-Hibee]

Previously we had choices between relatively informed commentators of a variety of political hues to choose from. Their publications, their views and their politics were largely known and they were at least informed to some degree in their fields. Now we have every single idiot under the sun with a vehicle to spout crap - and it is largely uncritically accepted as being factual simply because it appears electronically.

We have moved from arenas of public debate, disagreement and discourse to vast networks of stupidity echo chambers. Brexit is the most obvious example. Utter pish and outright lies presented as facts and truth, playing to people's fears and prejudices with no meaningful corrective available.

That wee dick who owns Facebook for a start has a lot to answer for and I don't think we know even half of what they've been involved in to date.

I think the best analogy here would be a boxing match. Previously you would see two boxers, they would fight in a defined space according to rules and with a referee. There would be a clear outcome.

Now there's no ring, everyone is involved in the fight, there's no referee and there's no result. **** knows where the real boxers are in that crowd and who the better fighter is because no one cares anyway since now everyone is a boxer.

The commentators aren't speaking for themselves. They are paid handsomely by the broadcaster to read from a script (without question) written by someone that you'll never know or see.

As for the brexit fiasco, I would argue that the MSM media had a far bigger hand to play in that outcome than social media did. Considering the lion share of those who voted for this outcome were the least likely demographic to even use social media.

[WhileTheChief..]

I don’t believe for a second that all politicians are simply out for themselves. It’s a lazy, easy criticism to level at them.

I bet that if you sat down with any MP or MSP, from any party, and had a discussion with them you would find that they are just like you and I in the main.

They generally all want the same. The best NHS, the best education system, a growing economy etc etc.

Where they differ is on how to achieve these things.

They all probably have to comprise a lot more than they would like to as well. Billy Connolly summed it up with his dangerous dogs / post office bit.

Of course they have to look out for their party’s interest, no point in having great ideas if you’re never going to win an election.

I think sometimes we expect far too much from the government and politicians in general.

People are certainly energised about politics just now though so if you feel the standard of politician is low now is probably as good as time as any to get yourself involved.

[hibsbollah]

What's the political decision you're making there?

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jan/27/huaweis-problems-deepen-as-western-suspicions-mount

This will happen more and more as tech gets cheaper and more countries that aren't 'liberal democracies' become players.

[lapsedhibee]

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jan/27/huaweis-problems-deepen-as-western-suspicions-mount

This will happen more and more as tech gets cheaper and more countries that aren't 'liberal democracies' become players.

So if you buy a Huawei phone you're betraying liberal democracy, is that it?

[danhibees1875]

So if you buy a Huawei phone you're betraying liberal democracy, is that it?

The camera is top notch though. :agree:

[hibsbollah]

So if you buy a Huawei phone you're betraying liberal democracy, is that it?

No, I'm just saying that a consumer decision you make is a political choice. Are you suspicious of Huaweis motives bearing in mind they are part owned by the Chinese state? And all your data is now their personal property? Or do you think all global capitalism is essentially the same and you will just choose based on the phone quality as Dan (and I:greengrin) can confirm? Would you buy clothes made in sweatshops where folk are dying every day? Or by even talking about it are you merely 'virtue signalling'? (Just this word rips my knitting)

These questions are far more interesting manifestations of politics than black rod and chief whips.

[lapsedhibee]

Would you buy clothes made in sweatshops where folk are dying every day?


Yes but would expect a hefty discount if the goods were bloodspattered.

[Mon Dieu4]

No, I'm just saying that a consumer decision you make is a political choice. Are you suspicious of Huaweis motives bearing in mind they are part owned by the Chinese state? And all your data is now their personal property? Or do you think all global capitalism is essentially the same and you will just choose based on the phone quality as Dan (and I:greengrin) can confirm? Would you buy clothes made in sweatshops where folk are dying every day? Or by even talking about it are you merely 'virtue signalling'? (Just this word rips my knitting)

These questions are far more interesting manifestations of politics than black rod and chief whips.

None of your data is yours anyway, the British and Americans already have it, mon the Chinese

[The Modfather]

So, the way the Holy Ground is dominated by about 4 or 5 posters, who don’t appear interested in debating just trying to shout louder than their opposition, had me in mind of this thread I started.

For those 4 or 5 posters, without naming names but we all know who they are, how genuine are you in trying to convince people of the merits, or not, of a specific political party or on something like Independence? I’m someone not a member of any political without any affinity to any of them. Your posting styles comes across as more interested in trolling and petty point scoring than a genuine interest in convincing people.

So an open question, are you interested in engaging with people like me who’s spirit is willing but feels disengaged from what I see in politics and the way it’s debated? Or do you prefer to continue shouting louder than your opponent and hoping that convinces people?

[Hibbyradge]

I understand your reluctance to name individuals, but unless you do, you won't get a reply.

Am I one of the people to whom you refer? I wouldn't have thought so, but it's impossible to be sure.

You're allowed to challenge people directly.

[AgentDaleCooper]

As someone very apathetic to politics who finds it hard to distinguish between any of the parties, what would you (of whatever political persuasion) do to win me round and potentially gain my vote?

I view the vast majority of politicians as self serving, who come from the same handful of schools and are utterly unrelatable, far less trustworthy. I genuinely feel like, after you cut through the bluster and noise, that there isn’t much that distinguishes any party, nor that there is any noticeable difference depending on who is in power. With Brexit showing politics at its worst, on all sides.

I enjoy reading the various political threads on here as there are a lot of posters who are far more knowledgeable than me that add to some interesting debates. However, the said same posters, but obviously not unique to them, can then put me off with the trivial point scoring or blinkered tunnel vision for their party.

Interested to hear other people’s thoughts.

Have a read about Rosa Luxemburg and Leon Trotsky's politics - far from perfect individuals, but their ideas and opposition to the way communism turned are important and should be looked at before dismissing the far left as impractical, idealistic hippy nonsense. They also provide an important perspective outwith the short-term, quick fix type of left wing politics that exists now. It'll also show why people talking about Jeremy Corbyn as being 'extreme' left are talking out of a hole in their mouth. He's only extreme-left because thatcher narrowed the scope of political discourse, while Stalin, Mao and the likes *******ised socialism by melding it with paranoid nationalism, which the west were more than happy for them to do, as it completely discredited the communist project.

I'm not saying I would endorse the politics of either of these individuals, I do think though that if you want to understand the political spectrum adequately, they need to be looked at.

[Mibbes Aye]

Have a read about Rosa Luxemburg and Leon Trotsky's politics - far from perfect individuals, but their ideas and opposition to the way communism turned are important and should be looked at before dismissing the far left as impractical, idealistic hippy nonsense. They also provide an important perspective outwith the short-term, quick fix type of left wing politics that exists now. It'll also show why people talking about Jeremy Corbyn as being 'extreme' left are talking out of a hole in their mouth. He's only extreme-left because thatcher narrowed the scope of political discourse, while Stalin, Mao and the likes *******ised socialism by melding it with paranoid nationalism, which the west were more than happy for them to do, as it completely discredited the communist project.

I'm not saying I would endorse the politics of either of these individuals, I do think though that if you want to understand the political spectrum adequately, they need to be looked at.

Cornyn isn’t extreme left IMO, he is just self- indulgent and intellectually not up to his position. I suspect the likes of John McDonnell view him as the ‘easy idiot’. And in thrall to ideologues like Seamas Milne and incapable of doing even the simplest thing like making it very clear he denounces anti-semitism. Instead it is mealy-mouthed words.

And he could do with reflecting on the fact that more Labour members voted to stay in the EU than voted for for him as leader. He has always banged on about following the will of the membership, perhaps he could demonstrate that. But he just bumbles on, saying nothing and letting his acolytes try to make Labour unelectable for the next trillion years.

I like your post though and it is good to see serious points being raised. Rosa Luxemburg was a fascinating person. I’ve just finished reading a biography of Keir Hardie which was great, he was a complex and complicated man, not disimilar to Karl Marx in many ways on a personal level, if not political.

[The Modfather]

I understand your reluctance to name individuals, but unless you do, you won't get a reply.

Am I one of the people to whom you refer? I wouldn't have thought so, but it's impossible to be sure.

You're allowed to challenge people directly.

A fair point, was reluctant to name names but as it’s intended as a constructive call out from someone they aren’t reaching. Wouldn’t mind hearing from the likes of Tornadoes70, James3:10 & Fife Hibee to my points on this thread - which if I’m not mistaken are posters from 3 different parties and for & against Independence. However it’s as much an open conversation as anything else so anyone welcome to reply.

[Fife-Hibee]

In response to you. I don't feel the need to try and "convince" you of anything. All of the information you need to make up your own mind is out there and available. If you have any interest in getting involved, then you can research that information for yourself. If you're not prepared to put in that level of effort, then nothing anybody tells you on a football club internet forum is going to sway you one way or the other.

[Mibbes Aye]

As someone very apathetic to politics who finds it hard to distinguish between any of the parties, what would you (of whatever political persuasion) do to win me round and potentially gain my vote?

I view the vast majority of politicians as self serving, who come from the same handful of schools and are utterly unrelatable, far less trustworthy. I genuinely feel like, after you cut through the bluster and noise, that there isn’t much that distinguishes any party, nor that there is any noticeable difference depending on who is in power. With Brexit showing politics at its worst, on all sides.

I enjoy reading the various political threads on here as there are a lot of posters who are far more knowledgeable than me that add to some interesting debates. However, the said same posters, but obviously not unique to them, can then put me off with the trivial point scoring or blinkered tunnel vision for their party.

Interested to hear other people’s thoughts.

Apologies if this has been covered already but rather than being won round, do you have a clear sense of what your values and principles are?

If you are comfortable and assured with them then it probably makes sense to seek out which party is closest to them. Most mainstream parties are a fairly broad spectrum, so there will be folk who agree with you and folk who are diametrically opposed, yet are still like-minded if that makes sense!

Brexit is a great example, for both Labour and the Tories. There is more that unites Tom Watson and Jeremy Corbyn than unites Tom Watson and Dominic Grieve.

Likewise there is more that unites Dominic Grieve and Jacob Rees-Mogg than unites Dominic Grieve with Tom Watson.

That is generalising a complex issue massively, but if you do have ideals, of whatever hue, the mainstream parties are probably broad enough camps to accommodate you.

[The Modfather]

Apologies if this has been covered already but rather than being won round, do you have a clear sense of what your values and principles are?

If you are comfortable and assured with them then it probably makes sense to seek out which party is closest to them. Most mainstream parties are a fairly broad spectrum, so there will be folk who agree with you and folk who are diametrically opposed, yet are still like-minded if that makes sense!

Brexit is a great example, for both Labour and the Tories. There is more that unites Tom Watson and Jeremy Corbyn than unites Tom Watson and Dominic Grieve.

Likewise there is more that unites Dominic Grieve and Jacob Rees-Mogg than unites Dominic Grieve with Tom Watson.

That is generalising a complex issue massively, but if you do have ideals, of whatever hue, the mainstream parties are probably broad enough camps to accommodate you.

I know where I broadly sit, be if on the left or the right, and do my own research. So not looking to be spoon fed info or for someone to effectively decide for me how I should vote.

The more general point I’ve been trying to make is that I’m not bound to any one party so can and have changed my vote from one election to the next. So as a floating voter I am there to be “won”. The folk that spend a lot of time debating politics on various platforms, are you not doing so in order to convince people? The nature of the debate, which a lot of the time just seems to be born out of trolling and petty point scoring, rather than an actual debate. This puts me off and makes me less likely to take on board any genuine points they might be making. I might end up voting the way they would like me to from my own research but surely the point of the time spent posting about politics is to ultimately make more people vote the way they do. The end result is that the style of the debate is a lot more likely to put me off than it is to influence my vote.

[Mibbes Aye]

I know where I broadly sit, be if on the left or the right, and do my own research. So not looking to be spoon fed info or for someone to effectively decide for me how I should vote.

The more general point I’ve been trying to make is that I’m not bound to any one party so can and have changed my vote from one election to the next. So as a floating voter I am there to be “won”. The folk that spend a lot of time debating politics on various platforms, are you not doing so in order to convince people? The nature of the debate, which a lot of the time just seems to be born out of trolling and petty point scoring, rather than an actual debate. This puts me off and makes me less likely to take on board any genuine points they might be making. I might end up voting the way they would like me to from my own research but surely the point of the time spent posting about politics is to ultimately make more people vote the way they do. The end result is that the style of the debate is a lot more likely to put me off than it is to influence my vote.

Wholeheartedly agree with you, reasoned debate is critical and dare I say it, may even lead to some of us changing our views when confronted with a rational and reasonable argument :greengrin

I think the challenge here is that you won’t get a singular argument for any party. Labour is riven in almost like a retread of the early eighties, with the centrists and pragmatists versus the swivel heads. The Tories are riven with the centrists and pragmatists versus their swivel heads. A number of whom are ditching them for the Brexit Party and UKIP.

I think there was a crossing of the Rubicon and the party system is now broken iresolveably. I think we will increasingly get into single-issue politics which people demand an instant resolution to. That’s the way that consumerism, marketing and the internet and social media have driven us.

I could very well be wrong but if I’m right then god help us, though it should be entertaining!

[James310]

I guess I try and balance the obvious left wing pro Indy majority on here. Maybe I do it badly, lots will agree with that, but I try to point out that in a lot of cases the SNP are not as perfect as some make them out to be on here. So for example, if you read this site then you could go away think this new Scottish currency lark is a breeze, nothing to worry about and it will all be fine. No problem with mortgages and pensions etc when in my opinion the reality is the opposite.

I also think there is a perception that the SNP politicians are somehow different or better than all other politicians, well this week we have had a ex SNP MP facing jail time for stealing money from food banks, so they are not as perfect as some would make out on here. Yes all the other parties have their 'wrong uns' but let's not pretend the SNP are exempt. However when I post about this it gets widely ignored and little comment, but imagine if a politcian of another party (say the Tories) had stolen money from a food bank. Do you think it would pass without little or no comment?

Even the BBC thread tonight we have a post about how the BBC was misleading the public on an interview with Alex Salmond and breaching the OFCOM guidelines, well I like to point out he is no stranger himself to that as he has breached the very same guidelines on his own show (on a Kremlin propaganda channel no less)

I maybe need to work on my style, but that's one of the reasons I read and post on here.

[Fife-Hibee]

I guess I try and balance the obvious left wing pro Indy majority on here. Maybe I do it badly, lots will agree with that, but I try to point out that in a lot of cases the SNP are not as perfect as some make them out to be on here. So for example, if you read this site then you could go away think this new Scottish currency lark is a breeze, nothing to worry about and it will all be fine. No problem with mortgages and pensions etc when in my opinion the reality is the opposite.

I also think there is a perception that the SNP politicians are somehow different or better than all other politicians, well this week we have had a ex SNP MP facing jail time from stealing money from food banks so they are not as perfect as some would make out. Yes all the other parties have their wrong uns but let's not pretend the SNP are exempt.

Even the BBC thread tonight we have a post about how the BBC was misleading the public on an interview with Alex Salmond and breaching the OFCOM guidelines, well I like to point out he is no stranger himself to that as he has breached the very same guidelines on his own show (on a Kremlin propaganda channel no less)

I maybe need to work on my style, but that's one of the reasons I read and post on here.

Nobody is saying the SNP politcians are "better". Some of them are downright dreadful. Particularly people like Natalie McGarry who stole those funds from YES groups. Although i'm sure her tory councilor spouse David Meikle had no hand to play in that at all...

Just like any other party, the SNP vetting process isn't perfect and some bad ones fall under the radar every now and then.

If we're talking about misleading perceptions though. How about the perception that Scottish Independence is synonyms with the SNP and somehow locked down to their own party policies? The arguments I quite often hear against Scottish Independence are arguments against SNP policy. As if these people are convinced that SNP policy would rule over an independent Scotland until the end of time. It's simply incorrect to assume that an independent Scotland would automatically favour the SNP vision.

[James310]

I don't see the other parties vision for what an independent Scotland would look like as they don't have one. (Do we even count the Greens) Why would they when they oppose it so much.

But that's a debate for the other thread, not this one.

[Fife-Hibee]

I don't see the other parties vision for what an independent Scotland would look like as they don't have one. (Do we even count the Greens) Why would they when they oppose it so much.

But that's a debate for the other thread, not this one.

Because they oppose independence and it wouldn't make sense for them to do so under the current political set up. However, the idea that an independent Scotland wouldn't have a wide array of parties across the political spectrum to chose from is ridiculous.

[Mibbes Aye]

Nobody is saying the SNP politcians are "better". Some of them are downright dreadful. Particularly people like Natalie McGarry who stole those funds from YES groups. Although i'm sure her tory councilor spouse David Meikle had no hand to play in that at all...

Just like any other party, the SNP vetting process isn't perfect and some bad ones fall under the radar every now and then.

If we're talking about misleading perceptions though. How about the perception that Scottish Independence is synonyms with the SNP and somehow locked down to their own party policies? The arguments I quite often hear against Scottish Independence are arguments against SNP policy. As if these people are convinced that SNP policy would rule over an independent Scotland until the end of time. It's simply incorrect to assume that an independent Scotland would automatically favour the SNP vision.

I find it hard to discern whether the SNP have a vision other than independence.

That is genuinely not a criticism. From a political point of view, being competent and managerialist, while pushing their raison d’etre is fair enough.

The problem for them is that they have singularly failed to deal with education and health, the two basics of society. You could probably add housing to that as well.

They are not being competent and managerialist, quite the opposite. They are failing our children and failing our ill.

As for the arguments for independence, I’ve yet to hear a rational case for nationalism in the 21st century, other than the usual tired tropes of bitterness and resentment.

And please don’t trot out the civic nationalism argument, this has been debated on here before and the idea that there is some uniquely progressive elan to Scotland that marks us out from everywhere else is a complete crock. Tell it to the women who suffer a spike in domestic violence every time our two best-supported clubs play.

[Pretty Boy]

I'm increasingly apathetic to party and ideological politics. Or it may be more accurate to say I'm apathetic to discussion or debate about such. As touched on above I find a lot of people, on this forum and elsewhere, are so entrenched in a position that they refuse to see or consider an alternative viewpoint. For debate to be worthwhile there needs to be a chance that someone will be willing to shift their position or concede a point; it should be as much about listening as talking.

I have some core values and there are some fundementals I feel strongly about. However if someone is willing to roll their sleeves up, muck in for their local community and try to improve the lives of people around them then I can probably deal with them. I can't really nail my colours to the 'right' or 'left' mast anymore nor do I want to.

[Fife-Hibee]

I find it hard to discern whether the SNP have a vision other than independence.

That is genuinely not a criticism. From a political point of view, being competent and managerialist, while pushing their raison d’etre is fair enough.

The problem for them is that they have singularly failed to deal with education and health, the two basics of society. You could probably add housing to that as well.

They are not being competent and managerialist, quite the opposite. They are failing our children and failing our ill.

As for the arguments for independence, I’ve yet to hear a rational case for nationalism in the 21st century, other than the usual tired tropes of bitterness and resentment.

And please don’t trot out the civic nationalism argument, this has been debated on here before and the idea that there is some uniquely progressive elan to Scotland that marks us out from everywhere else is a complete crock. Tell it to the women who suffer a spike in domestic violence every time our two best-supported clubs play.

Yet, the SNP failures that you point out can be applied to the UK as a whole. It's hardly an argument against independence. Any independence supporter will always point this out. If the UK is in Scotlands best interests, then why are we suffering the same failures as the rest of the UK?

Can you honestly say in all seriouness that a different party in Holyrood would see Scotlands fortunes change, despite these UK wide failures? Do you genuinely believe yourself when you tell others that a UK supporting party in Holyrood would somehow resolve UK wide problems in Scotland?

Your personal view on what passes as acceptable nationalism or not is irrelevant. Scotland is in a situation where it can choose between 2 different nationalisms. A nationalism where we're in control or a nationalism where we can't change a damn thing.

Take your pick, because you're not being offered anything else.

[The Modfather]

Dredging up an old thread of mine as it’s as relevant a thread as any for my general moan.

I emailed the 8 or so MP’s that represent my area, across all parties, about Covid related support for contractors and how we have fallen through the cracks. I explained how we fall in to a no mans land in terms of self employed and furlough and not eligible for either. I made sure to position it constructively , that there isn’t an endless pot of money and it’s difficult to cater for every set of circumstances and simply asked them to raise it for discussion.

I did get replies from most people but the overwhelming take home I got was that none of them particularly cared, and to some (Neil Findlay) I was an inconvenience bothering them.

The general point of my moan, and ties into the original point of my thread. For those invested into politics and parties and arguing the toss on the SNP/Labour/Tories threads, fair play to you but I struggle to see what difference it all makes whoever is in power. There’s headline things to debate and the ways to govern but when it comes down to it the vast majority of politicians and parties are much of a muchness, self serving, and no discernible difference between them all when relating to day to day life.

[Jack]

Dredging up an old thread of mine as it’s as relevant a thread as any for my general moan.

I emailed the 8 or so MP’s that represent my area, across all parties, about Covid related support for contractors and how we have fallen through the cracks. I explained how we fall in to a no mans land in terms of self employed and furlough and not eligible for either. I made sure to position it constructively , that there isn’t an endless pot of money and it’s difficult to cater for every set of circumstances and simply asked them to raise it for discussion.

I did get replies from most people but the overwhelming take home I got was that none of them particularly cared, and to some (Stuart Findlay) I was an inconvenience bothering them.

The general point of my moan, and ties into the original point of my thread. For those invested into politics and parties and arguing the toss on the SNP/Labour/Tories threads, fair play to you but I struggle to see what difference it all makes whoever is in power. There’s headline things to debate and the ways to govern but when it comes down to it the vast majority of politicians and parties are much of a muchness, self serving, and no discernible difference between them all when relating to day to day life.

It seems to have happened to a lot of people.

Are you sure it was Stuart Findlay you wrote to. The only Stuart Findlay I could find plays for Kilmarnock!

[Mon Dieu4]

Dredging up an old thread of mine as it’s as relevant a thread as any for my general moan.

I emailed the 8 or so MP’s that represent my area, across all parties, about Covid related support for contractors and how we have fallen through the cracks. I explained how we fall in to a no mans land in terms of self employed and furlough and not eligible for either. I made sure to position it constructively , that there isn’t an endless pot of money and it’s difficult to cater for every set of circumstances and simply asked them to raise it for discussion.

I did get replies from most people but the overwhelming take home I got was that none of them particularly cared, and to some (Stuart Findlay) I was an inconvenience bothering them.

The general point of my moan, and ties into the original point of my thread. For those invested into politics and parties and arguing the toss on the SNP/Labour/Tories threads, fair play to you but I struggle to see what difference it all makes whoever is in power. There’s headline things to debate and the ways to govern but when it comes down to it the vast majority of politicians and parties are much of a muchness, self serving, and no discernible difference between them all when relating to day to day life.

My Mum emailed Ben MacPherson who covers Leith in the Scottish Parliament asking him a pretty silly question IMO but it was about a holiday she had booked in October to take my nephews and niece away up north for a week, she wanted to know if the mixing of the households would be allowed

He replied to her with an email that showed a real personal touch and wasn't just a generic cut and paste message, she had never voted for the SNP in her life until December last year, but on the back of one really nice email she will definitely be voting for him next year, small things can make all the difference and I suppose it's the luck of the draw who you have in your area

[The Modfather]

It seems to have happened to a lot of people.

Are you sure it was Stuart Findlay you wrote to. The only Stuart Findlay I could find plays for Kilmarnock!

I wondered why he kept talking about how Killmarnock were doing this season :greengrin Neil Findlay was who I meant but might get Stuart’s take on things anyway.

[Pretty Boy]

My Mum emailed Ben MacPherson who covers Leith in the Scottish Parliament asking him a pretty silly question IMO but it was about a holiday she had booked in October to take my nephews and niece away up north for a week, she wanted to know if the mixing of the households would be allowed

He replied to her with an email that showed a real personal touch and wasn't just a generic cut and paste message, she had never voted for the SNP in her life until December last year, but on the back of one really nice email she will definitely be voting for him next year, small things can make all the difference and I suppose it's the luck of the draw who you have in your area

I think having a good MP and MSP and the quality of their office staff can make all the difference.

I had cause to write to Deidre Brock when I lived in her constituency and the reply I got was a disgrace. It was quite evidently a template letter that had been amended to include my name. On the flip side I wrote to Tommy Shepherd, my local MP now, last year about an issue with a small community cafe I had helped out when it was set up. He wrote a really nice letter back and asked if he could pop in sometime. No one ever expected any more of him but a few weeks later he pitched up on a Saturday morning, helped serve teas for a bit then had a blether with the people there. The cynic in me half expected a few pictures on his Twitter and in a newsletter but they never appeared. We are talking about a pretty deprived area in Edinburgh where he was already a strong incumbent so there was little to be gained for him. He was there because he wanted to be and I respected that.

[Rocky]

Dredging up an old thread of mine as it’s as relevant a thread as any for my general moan.

I emailed the 8 or so MP’s that represent my area, across all parties, about Covid related support for contractors and how we have fallen through the cracks. I explained how we fall in to a no mans land in terms of self employed and furlough and not eligible for either. I made sure to position it constructively , that there isn’t an endless pot of money and it’s difficult to cater for every set of circumstances and simply asked them to raise it for discussion.

I did get replies from most people but the overwhelming take home I got was that none of them particularly cared, and to some (Neil Findlay) I was an inconvenience bothering them.

The general point of my moan, and ties into the original point of my thread. For those invested into politics and parties and arguing the toss on the SNP/Labour/Tories threads, fair play to you but I struggle to see what difference it all makes whoever is in power. There’s headline things to debate and the ways to govern but when it comes down to it the vast majority of politicians and parties are much of a muchness, self serving, and no discernible difference between them all when relating to day to day life.
Martyn Day has been pushing this:

https://twitter.com/MartynDaySNP/status/1329387850232631299?s=19

[The Modfather]

Martyn Day has been pushing this:

https://twitter.com/MartynDaySNP/status/1329387850232631299?s=19

Really good to see, thanks for that.

Although my general moan was more around my experience with my MSP’s rather than the issue itself. Hopefully the debate raised by Martyn Day gains some traction though.

[Future17]

My Mum emailed Ben MacPherson who covers Leith in the Scottish Parliament asking him a pretty silly question IMO but it was about a holiday she had booked in October to take my nephews and niece away up north for a week, she wanted to know if the mixing of the households would be allowed

He replied to her with an email that showed a real personal touch and wasn't just a generic cut and paste message, she had never voted for the SNP in her life until December last year, but on the back of one really nice email she will definitely be voting for him next year, small things can make all the difference and I suppose it's the luck of the draw who you have in your area

That's good to hear at least. My experience was similar to The Modfather's.

I emailed Tommy Sheppard (MP) and Ash Denham (MSP) about the rules around parent/baby classes. I got a very quick response from TS and, whilst it didn't answer my question directly, it was considered and showed what felt like genuine compassion.

I got nothing from Ash Denham after two weeks so sent a reminder. Still no reply. That was probably around 8-10 weeks ago.

It's frustrating as I'm broadly in favour of independence, but my priority is having an effectual and engaged MSP who can help her constituents when they need it. Come next year, I'll have to choose between the two.

[Smartie]

Dredging up an old thread of mine as it’s as relevant a thread as any for my general moan.

I emailed the 8 or so MP’s that represent my area, across all parties, about Covid related support for contractors and how we have fallen through the cracks. I explained how we fall in to a no mans land in terms of self employed and furlough and not eligible for either. I made sure to position it constructively , that there isn’t an endless pot of money and it’s difficult to cater for every set of circumstances and simply asked them to raise it for discussion.

I did get replies from most people but the overwhelming take home I got was that none of them particularly cared, and to some (Neil Findlay) I was an inconvenience bothering them.

The general point of my moan, and ties into the original point of my thread. For those invested into politics and parties and arguing the toss on the SNP/Labour/Tories threads, fair play to you but I struggle to see what difference it all makes whoever is in power. There’s headline things to debate and the ways to govern but when it comes down to it the vast majority of politicians and parties are much of a muchness, self serving, and no discernible difference between them all when relating to day to day life.

I think this is quite an interesting post and an interesting subject.

It’s probably not something you’d necessarily want to do yourself - but all sorts of journalists write all sorts of articles. They’re constantly seeking subjects to write about, every day brings empty newspaper pages needing filled.

Have you considered approaching a journalist or paper of your choice to discuss your thoughts?

I quite enjoy politics and political discussion. I’m also growing increasingly angry with the contempt in which our political class appear to hold the general public and I think something needs done. The subject you raised is, in my opinion, an important one and worthy of greater acknowledgment.

In the past I’ve heard of MPs who I may not have necessarily liked but who took various things up on behalf of their constituents and it certainly altered my opinion of them - Robin Cook and Malcolm Rifkind to name a couple.

Politics needs to be about much more than just convincing us little people to pitch up and tick a box every few years.

[The Modfather]

I think this is quite an interesting post and an interesting subject.

It’s probably not something you’d necessarily want to do yourself - but all sorts of journalists write all sorts of articles. They’re constantly seeking subjects to write about, every day brings empty newspaper pages needing filled.

Have you considered approaching a journalist or paper of your choice to discuss your thoughts?

I quite enjoy politics and political discussion. I’m also growing increasingly angry with the contempt in which our political class appear to hold the general public and I think something needs done. The subject you raised is, in my opinion, an important one and worthy of greater acknowledgment.

In the past I’ve heard of MPs who I may not have necessarily liked but who took various things up on behalf of their constituents and it certainly altered my opinion of them - Robin Cook and Malcolm Rifkind to name a couple.

Politics needs to be about much more than just convincing us little people to pitch up and tick a box every few years.

Sorry, thought I had already replied to your post. It’s an article/debate I too would be interested to see someone pick up. I don’t really pay any attention to specific journalists, other than Stuart Cosgrove for his music. I’d not know where to start, think there are also more knowledgable and eloquent posters on the subject than myself. Although I’d be more than happy to contribute if the wheels of a proper debate were ever to be in motion.

I do wonder if we’re more aware of the distance between most politicians and politics and us, the general public, as we’re in the digital age, and such disconnect is actually fairly common across the decades and centuries.

[Speedy]

I am jealous of my younger self who had no real interest in politics.

The more I read about it, the more it frustrates me. Bunch of lying muppets :greengrin

[Future17]

I'm not saying the nation is apathetic to politics but if you type "Minister" into Google, the top suggested search is "for Magic".

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm not saying the nation is apathetic to politics but if you type "Minister" into Google, the top suggested search is "for Magic".

Michael Gove 🤔😉

[Hibrandenburg]

Michael Gove 🤔😉

No, he's the minister for ventriloquist's dummies.

[The Modfather]

Dredging up an old thread of mine as it’s as relevant a thread as any for my general moan.

I emailed the 8 or so MP’s that represent my area, across all parties, about Covid related support for contractors and how we have fallen through the cracks. I explained how we fall in to a no mans land in terms of self employed and furlough and not eligible for either. I made sure to position it constructively , that there isn’t an endless pot of money and it’s difficult to cater for every set of circumstances and simply asked them to raise it for discussion.

I did get replies from most people but the overwhelming take home I got was that none of them particularly cared, and to some (Neil Findlay) I was an inconvenience bothering them.

The general point of my moan, and ties into the original point of my thread. For those invested into politics and parties and arguing the toss on the SNP/Labour/Tories threads, fair play to you but I struggle to see what difference it all makes whoever is in power. There’s headline things to debate and the ways to govern but when it comes down to it the vast majority of politicians and parties are much of a muchness, self serving, and no discernible difference between them all when relating to day to day life.

Following up on my post. Just saw Keir Starner bring up the 3m self employed (the contractor market) who haven’t been eligible for any coronavirus support. Credit where it’s due for raising a real issue, although Boris’ assertion they’ve spent x amount supporting the self employed and will continue to do so. Looks like contractors will have to continue to fend for ourselves in a non existent contractor market :(

[Keith_M]

Following up on my post. Just saw Keir Starner bring up the 3m self employed (the contractor market) who haven’t been eligible for any coronavirus support. Credit where it’s due for raising a real issue, although Boris’ assertion they’ve spent x amount supporting the self employed and will continue to do so. Looks like contractors will have to continue to fend for ourselves in a non existent contractor market :(


Good to see him raising this issue.

I think all governments need an effective opposition that will ask questions about often awkward issues.

In one of the other political threads, there was a mention of Ruth Davidson doing something similar, and in a calm and reasonable manner. While I'm not keen on her or her party, I think it's a good thing to see (and I believe she received an open and dignified answer as well).

[ronaldo7]

Following up on my post. Just saw Keir Starner bring up the 3m self employed (the contractor market) who haven’t been eligible for any coronavirus support. Credit where it’s due for raising a real issue, although Boris’ assertion they’ve spent x amount supporting the self employed and will continue to do so. Looks like contractors will have to continue to fend for ourselves in a non existent contractor market :(

It's been raised in Parliament on numerous occasions, Alison Thewliss has been very vocal, and our own Ian Blackford questioning the PM in early december. Other parties have been asking too, so it's nice to see Labour get in on the act. The PM in his usual style, deflects by saying he's helping many self employed, but the excluded continue to go without.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-55159429