New Gillette Advert

[The Modfather]

Anyone seen the new Gillette advert? https://youtu.be/koPmuEyP3a0

Saw it on a BBC article which was saying there had been quite a backlash. Now I do think that there is definitely hypocrisy in the perception and treatment of men v women in general, but can’t see how this advert would offend anyone. I didn’t see it as an attack on masculinity or a negative generalisation of all men as some of those offended appear to believe.

Surely the message is to challenge bullying in all forms and outdated misogyny (all that falls under the misogyny banner is a different beast and has gone too far the other way where people see things that aren’t there IMO, but that’s a different debate for a different thread).

Edit - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-46874617

[Pretty Boy]

If some men think 'masculinity' is harassing and bullying women then it suggests they have the problem rather than Gillette. One comment I read suggested Gillette was ' alienating masculine men'.:faf:

Like you I fail to see the issue with the advert. it highlights both positive and negative aspects of male behaviour.

[Rocky]

If some men think 'masculinity' is harassing and bullying women then it suggests they have the problem rather than Gillette. One comment I read suggested Gillette was ' alienating masculine men'.:faf:

Like you I fail to see the issue with the advert. it highlights both positive and negative aspects of male behaviour.

Sometimes it gets my hackles up when I feel like all men are being tarred with the same brush. But then I remember that bullying and sexual harassment are still very much a real thing in 2019 so I say to myself 'suck it up flower, you being a wee bit narked is insignificant in the grand scheme of things, spend your energy figuring out what you can do to improve things for people who are really suffering instead.'

I don't see that the ad is tarring all men with the same brush anyway, I've got no issue with it. I'm pretty damn sure that the guys who are getting so exercised about it will also be the types who call other people snowflakes without a hint of irony. I'm sure a read through their Twitter timelines would be most enlightening as to what type of men they are.

[Pretty Boy]

Sometimes it gets my hackles up when I feel like all men are being tarred with the same brush. But then I remember that bullying and sexual harassment are still very much a real thing in 2019 so I say to myself 'suck it up flower, you being a wee bit narked is insignificant in the grand scheme of things, spend your energy figuring out what you can do to improve things for people who are really suffering instead.'

I don't see that the ad is tarring all men with the same brush anyway, I've got no issue with it. I'm pretty damn sure that the guys who are getting so exercised about it will also be the types who call other people snowflakes without a hint of irony. I'm sure a read through their Twitter timelines would be most enlightening as to what type of men they are.

Yep i totally get your 1st paragraph. I don't like the idea occasionally put forward that all men are unthinking neanderthals who are only interested in pawing at and talking at women. Equally I think most people are capable of differentiating between men who do and don't behave in that way. For a long while I felt almost angry at some of the #metoo movement and the issues they raised but when I thought about it a large part of that was because it challenged some of my previous behaviour when I was younger and dafter; that's quite an uncomfortable thing to face up to rather than just dismissing it and arguing it's fine.

Ultimately the ad is showing both sides of the coin when it comes to how men behave and I see it as challenging men who realise such behaviour is unacceptable to step in and deal with it themselves.

[One Day Soon]

Haven't seen it and quite happy for the argument on men behaving better to be made. Just not by Gillette.

If you want to try and sell me shaving foam or razor blades then go ahead and market your shaving foam and razor blades to me. Take your life lessons - no matter how much I may agree with them - and shove them where the sun doesn't shine.

[Rocky]

Haven't seen it and quite happy for the argument on men behaving better to be made. Just not by Gillette.

If you want to try and sell me shaving foam or razor blades then go ahead and market your shaving foam and razor blades to me. Take your life lessons - no matter how much I may agree with them - and shove them where the sun doesn't shine.

This more your thing?

https://newsthump.com/2019/01/15/man-furious-at-gillette-for-bullying-is-bad-advert-perfectly-happy-to-be-targeted-by-this-product-helps-you-get-sex-adverts/

[makaveli1875]

It's a bizarre way to advertise shaving foam il give it that. Fortunately I rarely get time to watch telly while I'm beating up my kids and making the misses eat her dinner off the floor so I probably won't see it.

[Gatecrasher]

1. Why is a shaving company telling people how to live their lives?

2. Its a good message but they went about it the wrong way, whether it was there intention or not they made it look like the majority of men do these things when that's perhaps not the case. It comes across as condescending.

3. I'm starting to get fed up with corporations hanging on the coat tails of what ever political agenda that's flavour of the month hoping they will get them in the publics favour and more money as a result.

[heretoday]

Admen and women will do anything to sell product.

It is completely pointless to even contemplate what they do. Turn the adverts off is my advice.

[lyonhibs]

A for profit cosmetics company peddling its wildly overpriced wares, wrapped up in the cloak of a worthy message?

Nah, I'll pass on giving them too much applause.

[JeMeSouviens]

Haven't seen it and quite happy for the argument on men behaving better to be made. Just not by Gillette.

If you want to try and sell me shaving foam or razor blades then go ahead and market your shaving foam and razor blades to me. Take your life lessons - no matter how much I may agree with them - and shove them where the sun doesn't shine.

Razor blades where the sun don't shine? Ooyah.

[SRHibs]

It's a bizarre way to advertise shaving foam il give it that. Fortunately I rarely get time to watch telly while I'm beating up my kids and making the misses eat her dinner off the floor so I probably won't see it.

It's surely more a case of them using their huge presence to try and convey a positive message. I guess the advertising aspect comes from the fact that people are going to discuss it. It's received a negative response, but probably still a net positive for Gillette.

Hard to disagree with the message though.

[McSwanky]

Oh look! An advert that everyone is talking about!

21576

[Jack Hackett]

I use the Philips Oneblade... so Gillette can do one :greengrin

[beensaidbefore]

So women don't do any of the negative things, fighting, aggressive behaviour, etc? Of course they do.

Its ok to tar men with the same brush and use negative language such as 'toxic masculinity'. Why is that?

[CapitalGreen]

So women don't do any of the negative things, fighting, aggressive behaviour, etc? Of course they do.

Its ok to tar men with the same brush and use negative language such as 'toxic masculinity'. Why is that?

I assume you have watched this one first before commenting after making an arse of yourself the other day with that Glaswegian creepy predator's youtube videos?

[beensaidbefore]

I assume you have watched this one first before commenting after making an arse of yourself the other day with that Glaswegian creepy predator's youtube videos?

Cheers for your input.

What about my questions?

[CapitalGreen]

Cheers for your input.

What about my questions?

So women don't do any of the negative things, fighting, aggressive behaviour, etc? Of course they do.

This advert didn't suggest women don't do any of the negative things you listed. It's logical an advert aimed at men, would focus of male behaviour.

Its ok to tar men with the same brush and use negative language such as 'toxic masculinity'. Why is that?

Not all men are being tarred with the same brush. I'm a man and didn't feel tarred by any brush. The advert literally shows different men demonstrating different behaviour both good and bad.

You're searching fro a grievance as usual.

[WhileTheChief..]

So women don't do any of the negative things, fighting, aggressive behaviour, etc? Of course they do.

Its ok to tar men with the same brush and use negative language such as 'toxic masculinity'. Why is that?

Because everyone’s got to be a victim these days and we need to blame someone.

In this case we’ll just blame men. It’s easy.

[beensaidbefore]

So women don't do any of the negative things, fighting, aggressive behaviour, etc? Of course they do.

This advert didn't suggest women don't do any of the negative things you listed. It's logical an advert aimed at men, would focus of male behaviour.

Its ok to tar men with the same brush and use negative language such as 'toxic masculinity'. Why is that?

Not all men are being tarred with the same brush. I'm a man and didn't feel tarred by any brush. The advert literally shows different men demonstrating different behaviour both good and bad.

You're searching fro a grievance as usual.

I take grievance at the fact that it is prlerfectly acceptable to make generalised a statements about men and masculinity, whilst offering a platform for radical feminism to become normality. I take offence that I could be perceived like this. The same way, for example, a woman may take offence to the airbrushed models on tv that we are told are not representative of all women, or the attidues of women. That is where I take issue.

[lapsedhibee]

Company tries to associate its product with desirable behaviour shock.

Nothing in the least offensive.

If they'd even begun to suggest that all men manspread, however, I'd be suicide-bombing their HQ tomorrow.

[CapitalGreen]

Because everyone’s got to be a victim these days and we need to blame someone.

In this case we’ll just blame men. It’s easy.

In this case it appears that it is yourself that is looking to be a victim.

[RyeSloan]

Ahh watched the video (one more view for their ad company to celebrate).

Much ado about nothing really.

Personally found it a bit shallow although I get their general point.

Although I did laugh at the part where the dude finds the woman walking past attractive and the guy intervenes with a ‘poor show’ comment or the like....

[heretoday]

Oh look! An advert that everyone is talking about!

21576

Yup. Job done! More champagne Mr Gillette?

[brianmc]

Gillette etc can bolt!
Robbing bar stewards.
Harry's is the way forward.

[Pretty Boy]

I take grievance at the fact that it is prlerfectly acceptable to make generalised a statements about men and masculinity, whilst offering a platform for radical feminism to become normality. I take offence that I could be perceived like this. The same way, for example, a woman may take offence to the airbrushed models on tv that we are told are not representative of all women, or the attidues of women. That is where I take issue.

Why would you be perceived as the negative examples shown rather than the positive ones? Why not flip the view and say I'm proud that I could be perceived as a positive example of masculinity?

I'm also unsure where radical feminism is becoming normality. Is standing up to sexual assault, unwanted contact, unsolicited sexualised conversation or similar radical feminism?

[Newry Hibs]

So Gillette decide to criticise their main customer base by implying that all men can be better than they are.

Note the long line of barbequeing men.
Also note in the examples where nasty men leer at women, they are white and are corrected by men of colour.

There is a saying 'get woke, go broke'. This could be their ratners moment. Hope so. Virtue signalling twats.

[Mantis Toboggan]

I've no idea how anyone can get so worked up about this. Says much more about the person than the advert.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Original shaving tackle involved a strop. Maybe this is getting back to that?

[CapitalGreen]

So Gillette decide to criticise their main customer base by implying that all men can be better than they are.

Note the long line of barbequeing men.
Also note in the examples where nasty men leer at women, they are white and are corrected by men of colour.

There is a saying 'get woke, go broke'. This could be their ratners moment. Hope so. Virtue signalling twats.

I didn’t notice that, but then again I wasn’t searching for a grievance.

and as an aside, I have bought Gillette product before and I didn’t feel like the Ad was criticising me, should I have been offended?

[Pretty Boy]

Fair few snowflakes on this thread by the looks of things......

[Radium]

So Gillette decide to criticise their main customer base by implying that all men can be better than they are.

Note the long line of barbequeing men.
Also note in the examples where nasty men leer at women, they are white and are corrected by men of colour.

There is a saying 'get woke, go broke'. This could be their ratners moment. Hope so. Virtue signalling twats.

Not sure that they have stood up at a Public event and said their product is s###.

Similar to Nike they are choosing to make value statements about personal values.

They previously relied on the reflected glory of sports stars including Tiger Woods which didn’t necessarily work out as planned.

It is not the most controversial statement I have heard but like many others, my blades arrive in the post [emoji2957]



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[stoneyburn hibs]

Some of the the ad is quite amusing, the annoying thing is Gillette taking the moral high ground.
I guess their ad men have earned their crust.

[IWasThere2016]

http://newsthump.com/2019/01/16/gillette-commercial-nowhere-near-as-offensive-as-the-price-of-their-fcking-razor-blades/

[Mibbes Aye]

http://newsthump.com/2019/01/16/gillette-commercial-nowhere-near-as-offensive-as-the-price-of-their-fcking-razor-blades/

Good post.

They probably need admiration for their business model - get you in with a relatively cheap offer for a shaft and blade then charge an absolute fortune for replacement blades because you are familiar with the razor and can’t be bothered changing.

I think they are getting worse too. The ProFusion is a good shave but the blades seem to last a lot less than the Mach 3s or the like.

[Slavers]

Fair few snowflakes on this thread by the looks of things......

Your user name could be seen to be offensive to people who are gender disturbed.

Pretty Person might be a more suitable user name for a public forum.

[Pretty Boy]

Your user name could be seen to be offensive to people who are gender disturbed.

Pretty Person might be a more suitable user name for a public forum.

Very droll.

I identify as male and I'm not aware of those who identify differently being offended by that so I'm fairly comfortable with it as it is.

[Slavers]

Very droll.

I identify as male and I'm not aware of those who identify differently being offended by that so I'm fairly comfortable with it as it is.

I think you will find that with the recent gingerbread men scandal that people are very much offended by a show of masculinity.

Given that gender is now seen as a social construct then you may identify as male but how do you really know that you are?

You may have been conditioned into thinking this way by the society around you.

I suggest you have a little think for the people who do struggle with this issue and refrain from using such a gender specific user name. There are many who struggle with their gender and you flaunting a moniker such as Pretty Boy rubs the noses of affected into the mud IMO.

[CropleyWasGod]

I think you will find that with the recent gingerbread men scandal that people are very much offended by a show of masculinity.

Given that gender is now seen as a social construct then you may identify as male but how do you really know that you are?

You may have been conditioned into thinking this way by the society around you.

I suggest you have a little think for the people who do struggle with this issue and refrain from using such a gender specific user name. There are many who struggle with their gender and you flaunting a moniker such as Pretty Boy rubs the noses of affected into the mud IMO.

And you might want to have some thought for those who bat for the other side.

Home Team? I am outraged. :rolleyes:

[Pretty Boy]

I think you will find that with the recent gingerbread men scandal that people are very much offended by a show of masculinity.

Given that gender is now seen as a social construct then you may identify as male but how do you really know that you are?

You may have been conditioned into thinking this way by the society around you.

I suggest you have a little think for the people who do struggle with this issue and refrain from using such a gender specific user name. There are many who struggle with their gender and you flaunting a moniker such as Pretty Boy rubs the noses of affected into the mud IMO.

:faf:

[McSwanky]

I think you will find that with the recent gingerbread men scandal that people are very much offended by a show of masculinity.

Given that gender is now seen as a social construct then you may identify as male but how do you really know that you are?

You may have been conditioned into thinking this way by the society around you.

I suggest you have a little think for the people who do struggle with this issue and refrain from using such a gender specific user name. There are many who struggle with their gender and you flaunting a moniker such as Pretty Boy rubs the noses of affected into the mud IMO.

I had just about decided you were serious on those other threads, but this post has blown that out of the water for me! You're at it! TBF, you had me for a while! :top marks

[lapsedhibee]

I had just about decided you were serious on those other threads, but this post has blown that out of the water for me! You're at it! TBF, you had me for a while! :top marks
Now you're at it! :grr:

[WhileTheChief..]

I think you will find that with the recent gingerbread men scandal that people are very much offended by a show of masculinity.

Given that gender is now seen as a social construct then you may identify as male but how do you really know that you are?

You may have been conditioned into thinking this way by the society around you.

I suggest you have a little think for the people who do struggle with this issue and refrain from using such a gender specific user name. There are many who struggle with their gender and you flaunting a moniker such as Pretty Boy rubs the noses of affected into the mud IMO.


It’s not not so far removed from reality.

Give it a year or two and that will be the norm if we keep going the way we’re going.

[Pretty Boy]

Do people really get upset that a baked good, that by it's very nature doesn't have a gender, is refered to as a woman or a person rather than a man?

If that's an 'attack on masculinity' in your eyes or you find that emasculating then I'd suggest your insecurities go a bit deeper.

[Slavers]

Do people really get upset that a baked good, that by it's very nature doesn't have a gender, is refered to as a woman or a person rather than a man?

If that's an 'attack on masculinity' in your eyes or you find that emasculating then I'd suggest your insecurities go a bit deeper.

I think it's fair to comment on it. The story is all about a gingerbread man. Run Run as fast as you can you can't catch me I'm the gingerbread man. Why change A classic story and for who's benefit is it that the gingerbread man has now become a non binary biscuit person.

It's the people who feel put out by the gingerbread man being male that should be getting called out not the people trying to defend a traditional biscuit and story.

Would you be happy if they changed the name of ginger nuts just in case those biscuits are deemed to be far to masculine? Ginger Non binery Nuts, Ginger Flaps?

[Pretty Boy]

I think it's fair to comment on it. The story is all about a gingerbread man. Run Run as fast as you can you can't catch me I'm the gingerbread man. Why change A classic story and for who's benefit is it that the gingerbread man has now become a non binary biscuit person.

It's the people who feel put out by the gingerbread man being male that should be getting called out not the people trying to defend a traditional biscuit and story.

Would you be happy if they changed the name of ginger nuts just in case those biscuits are deemed to be far to masculine? Ginger Non binery Nuts, Ginger Flaps?

But your clearly put out by it not being male so how are you different from the other side of the coin?

I couldn't really care less what people call biscuits and cakes because, to put it bluntly, they are biscuits and cakes. It's hardly the dawn of a cruel matriarchy if a couple of shops sell gingerbread people.

[Slavers]

But your clearly put out by it not being male so how are you different from the other side of the coin?

I couldn't really care less what people call biscuits and cakes because, to put it bluntly, they are biscuits and cakes. It's hardly the dawn of a cruel matriarchy if a couple of shops sell gingerbread people.

Ok in similar theme when referring to humanity do you use the term mankind or the more gender neutral peoplekind as per Justin Trudeau?

[Pretty Boy]

Ok in similar theme do you use the term mankind or the more gender neutral peoplekind as per Justin Trudeau?

Is there widespread use of the term peoplekind? You seem to find these extreme examples, peoplekind being explained as a joke after the event btw, and pass them off as proof of a plot that exists primarily in your own head.

[Slavers]

Is there widespread use of the term peoplekind? You seem to find these extreme examples, peoplekind being explained as a joke after the event btw, and pass them off as proof of a plot that exists primarily in your own head.

The Canadian prime minister using the term peoplekind then passing it off as a joke is a likely old story of explanation but anyway its certainly not an extreme example of an agenda at play it is an example.

Again the Gingerbread men being gender changed is not an extreme example it's a real life situation that is worthy of comment. However what is notable and you are silent on this point that it is a very extreme viewpoint and ideology that wants to have the gingerbread man gender changed in the first place.

[stoneyburn hibs]

I will now question my morality before eating Garibaldi's, Hob knobs, Shortbread,Fig rolls and Chocolate fingers.

[overdrive]

Real men wouldn’t go near most of Gillette’s products. Either a straight razor/shavette or double edged razor with shaving soap or cream is the way to go.

[Pretty Boy]

The Canadian prime minister using the term peoplekind then passing it off as a joke is a likely old story of explanation but anyway its certainly not an extreme example of an agenda at play it is an example.

Again the Gingerbread men being gender changed is not an extreme example it's a real life situation that is worthy of comment. However what is notable and you are silent on this point that it is a very extreme viewpoint and ideology that wants to have the gingerbread man gender changed.

I'm not silent on anything. My view is clear; anyone getting worked up about the gender of a piece of food needs to consider whether it's really worth getting upset about.

As an aside the whole thing seems much ado about nothing considering a cursory glance at Google confirms McVities, Tesco, Sainsburys, Walkers, Waitrose, Hotel Chocolat and various others are all still actively marketing and selling ginerbread MEN.

I'll sleep easier tonight knowing that.

[Pretty Boy]

real people wouldn’t go near most of gillette’s products. Either a heterosexual razor/shavette or double edged razor with shaving soap or cream is the way to go.

ftfy

[Rocky]

I think it's fair to comment on it. The story is all about a gingerbread man. Run Run as fast as you can you can't catch me I'm the gingerbread man. Why change A classic story and for who's benefit is it that the gingerbread man has now become a non binary biscuit person.

It's the people who feel put out by the gingerbread man being male that should be getting called out not the people trying to defend a traditional biscuit and story.

Would you be happy if they changed the name of ginger nuts just in case those biscuits are deemed to be far to masculine? Ginger Non binery Nuts, Ginger Flaps?

Who is actually put out by the term gingerbread man? Can you provide a quote / link? Invariably with stories like these one or two people (if any) have said they don't like it then tens of thousands of folk start greeting about the one or two people who said they didn't like it.

The irony is that those tens of thousands of folk are also the ones who call others snowflakes.

[overdrive]

ftfy

:faf:

It’s the trend towards gender neutral facilities that I’m slightly uncomfortable with in relation to some of this sort of stuff. My work has rebadged a lot of disabled toilets as “gender neutral” which has pissed off a lot of disabled people (possibly pissed off trans people too). One building I’ve been in had separate ladies toilets and gender neutral toilets but no gents toilets which seems unfair and/or playing into gender stereotypes. The place I go to do yoga only has gender neutral changing facilities which I find a bit uncomfortable. I don’t use the shower there as I live not far from it but you pretty much have to walk from the shower to the changing cubicles in front of people of all genders whilst you are wearing only a towel. Something sits uneasy with me about that, especially in the #metoo era.

[Colr]

After the vegam sausage roll and this it will only take one more such “outrage” for the Gammon King of Broflakes, Piers Morgan, to spontaniously combust with indignation.

[RyeSloan]

After the vegam sausage roll and this it will only take one more such “outrage” for the Gammon King of Broflakes, Piers Morgan, to spontaniously combust with indignation.

We can but hope [emoji106] [emoji2957]

[Slavers]

I watched the advert on the official Gillette page on YouTube. One of the comments beneath the video highlighted that in the video there are 43 undesirable males, 42 of which are white males.

An agenda at play here or just a random occurrence?

[McSwanky]

Can someone post a link to this gingerbread man story? Try as I might, I can't find anything on it, and it must have totally passed me by.

[Slavers]

Can someone post a link to this gingerbread man story? Try as I might, I can't find anything on it, and it must have totally passed me by.

https://www.irishpost.com/news/scottish-parliament-rebrands-gingerbread-men-gingerbread-men-162769

[Lester B]

https://www.irishpost.com/news/scottish-parliament-rebrands-gingerbread-men-gingerbread-men-162769

It's nonsense


https://theferret.scot/fact-check-scottish-parliament-banned-gingerbread-men/

They might however be considering banning gammon as it's outdated and leaves a bad taste

[Rocky]

https://www.irishpost.com/news/scottish-parliament-rebrands-gingerbread-men-gingerbread-men-162769

I don't see any suggestion that someone complained about them being called gingerbread men in that article? Got any examples where someone has?

[Mantis Toboggan]

The Canadian prime minister using the term peoplekind then passing it off as a joke is a likely old story of explanation but anyway its certainly not an extreme example of an agenda at play it is an example.

Again the Gingerbread men being gender changed is not an extreme example it's a real life situation that is worthy of comment. However what is notable and you are silent on this point that it is a very extreme viewpoint and ideology that wants to have the gingerbread man gender changed in the first place.

I for one am terrified of the cakes and biscuit based feminist uprising. How will us men survive?
(There's an obvious fruitcake joke here somewhere but not going to make it)

[Rocky]

I watched the advert on the official Gillette page on YouTube. One of the comments beneath the video highlighted that in the video there are 43 undesirable males, 42 of which are white males.

An agenda at play here or just a random occurrence?

Yes I'd suggest that someone who sits and counts colours has an agenda at play - does that answer your question?

[Lester B]

Yes I'd suggest that someone who sits and counts colours has an agenda at play - does that answer your question?

As my teenage daughter often says; Burn :not worth

[McSwanky]

https://www.irishpost.com/news/scottish-parliament-rebrands-gingerbread-men-gingerbread-men-162769

Seriously? That's what you're basing this on? Isn't the cafe operated by an external company? Is there any record of this issue having been discussed in the parliament? Honestly, I'm outraged by your outrage at the outrage of others! And no doubt you'll be outraged by my outrage at your outrage at the outrageous behaviour by that private company who operate the cafe. See where I'm going here?

Or we could all just be a bit more understanding of everyone else's reasons for doing what they do, and pledge to be a wee bit more tolerant of others and their way of life?

This all smacks of the old stories about not being able to call a blackboard a blackboard any more. Only now we have Twitter and Facebook confirming that everything you say is right, and everything I say is right.

[ChooseLife]

I watched the advert on the official Gillette page on YouTube. One of the comments beneath the video highlighted that in the video there are 43 undesirable males, 42 of which are white males.

An agenda at play here or just a random occurrence?

I would have questioned why the person is mentioning the colour of the men's skin, most younger people who watch the advert will only see 43 male men.

[JeMeSouviens]

Seriously? That's what you're basing this on? Isn't the cafe operated by an external company? Is there any record of this issue having been discussed in the parliament? Honestly, I'm outraged by your outrage at the outrage of others! And no doubt you'll be outraged by my outrage at your outrage at the outrageous behaviour by that private company who operate the cafe. See where I'm going here?

Or we could all just be a bit more understanding of everyone else's reasons for doing what they do, and pledge to be a wee bit more tolerant of others and their way of life?

This all smacks of the old stories about not being able to call a blackboard a blackboard any more. Only now we have Twitter and Facebook confirming that everything you say is right, and everything I say is right.

If you follow the fact check link Lester B provided above, you'll see it was the supplier that changed its labelling with no prior consultation with or input from the parliament.

So, another total non-story made up by HomeTroll.

[WhileTheChief..]

The ginger bread man story may be crap but the issue of multiple genders is growing.

Gender neutral? Wtf.

There’s male and female, that’s it.

If you’re a male that identifies as female then fine. You can’t expect the rest of society’s to adjust to that way of thinking though.

In days gone buy these people would have got medical help. Now we’re trying to say it’s the norm.

Well it’s not. And it’s ******g mental if we’re seriosuly saying to toddlers that they can choose which sex they want to be.

It really needs to stop. All of this touchy feely stuff isn’t doing anyone any good at all.

If you’re born a male, you’re a male. You can pretend otherwise but that’s all your doing.

Go seek help.

[Mantis Toboggan]

The ginger bread man story may be crap but the issue of multiple genders is growing.

Gender neutral? Wtf.

There’s male and female, that’s it.

If you’re a male that identifies as female then fine. You can’t expect the rest of society’s to adjust to that way of thinking though.

In days gone buy these people would have got medical help. Now we’re trying to say it’s the norm.

Well it’s not. And it’s ******g mental if we’re seriosuly saying to toddlers that they can choose which sex they want to be.

It really needs to stop. All of this touchy feely stuff isn’t doing anyone any good at all.

If you’re born a male, you’re a male. You can pretend otherwise but that’s all your doing.

Go seek help.

Agree - you should definitely do that.

[CropleyWasGod]

The ginger bread man story may be crap but the issue of multiple genders is growing.

Gender neutral? Wtf.

There’s male and female, that’s it.

If you’re a male that identifies as female then fine. You can’t expect the rest of society’s to adjust to that way of thinking though.

In days gone buy these people would have got medical help. Now we’re trying to say it’s the norm.

Well it’s not. And it’s ******g mental if we’re seriosuly saying to toddlers that they can choose which sex they want to be.

It really needs to stop. All of this touchy feely stuff isn’t doing anyone any good at all.

If you’re born a male, you’re a male. You can pretend otherwise but that’s all your doing.


Go seek help.

My mate had a daughter. Happy enough childhood, but as a teenager was troubled.

She transitioned to a man, and is now much happier and fulfilled. Try telling him, and his Dad, that he's pretending.

[Lester B]

My mate had a daughter. Happy enough childhood, but as a teenager was troubled.

She transitioned to a man, and is now much happier and fulfilled. Try telling him, and his Dad, that he's pretending.

But....but...according to the Oracle that is While the Chief that is just touchy feely stuff that does no good at all.

That is a great story, thanks for sharing it.

If you deny people their identity then you deny their humanity. Sadly there are a few people on the topics on this forum who seem to revel in doing both and worse, seem proud to do so.

And to return to the original topic I have a beard which I usually shave off when going on holiday in the summer. I'll happily buy Gillette stuff to do that.

[One Day Soon]

Is there widespread use of the term peoplekind? You seem to find these extreme examples, peoplekind being explained as a joke after the event btw, and pass them off as proof of a plot that exists primarily in your own head.

That I can believe.

[McSwanky]

The ginger bread man story may be crap but the issue of multiple genders is growing.

Gender neutral? Wtf.

There’s male and female, that’s it.

If you’re a male that identifies as female then fine. You can’t expect the rest of society’s to adjust to that way of thinking though.

In days gone buy these people would have got medical help. Now we’re trying to say it’s the norm.

Well it’s not. And it’s ******g mental if we’re seriosuly saying to toddlers that they can choose which sex they want to be.

It really needs to stop. All of this touchy feely stuff isn’t doing anyone any good at all.

If you’re born a male, you’re a male. You can pretend otherwise but that’s all your doing.

Go seek help.

Jesus. Get out of your westernised bubble!

Have a wee read of this, won't take long:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_roles_among_the_indigenous_peoples_of_North _America

The idea of non-binary genders is not new.

[CapitalGreen]

I watched the advert on the official Gillette page on YouTube. One of the comments beneath the video highlighted that in the video there are 43 undesirable males, 42 of which are white males.

An agenda at play here or just a random occurrence?

There you go again searching for a grievance. Is there anything that does not offend you?

[WhileTheChief..]

Are you all seriously saying that we need to recognise multiple genders now?

[WhileTheChief..]

My mate had a daughter. Happy enough childhood, but as a teenager was troubled.

She transitioned to a man, and is now much happier and fulfilled. Try telling him, and his Dad, that he's pretending.

Ok, so she’s now a he right?

I’m assuming that means he lives his full life like that and wants to be treated 100% as a male?

If so then we’re back to just 2 genders. Male and female. That was my point.

[One Day Soon]

As stated previously I'm very hostile to these corporate monkeys appropriating social marketing for their own bottom line, no matter how much I may endorse the politics. But before we even get on to that these ****s should go back to the lab and sort out their ****ing razors. "Get the new Gillette Maxofactor Shock and Awe, now with 40 blades. **** at shaving, except in straight lines on flat surfaces." Ar5eholes.

[Lester B]

Are you all seriously saying that we need to recognise multiple genders now?

I am. I can't speak for others.

[CropleyWasGod]

Ok, so she’s now a he right?

I’m assuming that means he lives his full life like that and wants to be treated 100% as a male?

If so then we’re back to just 2 genders. Male and female. That was my point.

You said "If you’re born a male, you’re a male. You can pretend otherwise but that’s all your doing. "

That was my point.

[WhileTheChief..]

I am. I can't speak for others.

Fair enough.

Do you expect all of society to?

“Non binary genders” really? Where does this stuff come from?!!

[CropleyWasGod]

Are you all seriously saying that we need to recognise multiple genders now?

Whether you do personally or not, is up to you.

I'd say that "respect" is the operative word here.

[Lendo]

The ginger bread man story may be crap but the issue of multiple genders is growing.

Gender neutral? Wtf.

There’s male and female, that’s it.

If you’re a male that identifies as female then fine. You can’t expect the rest of society’s to adjust to that way of thinking though.

In days gone buy these people would have got medical help. Now we’re trying to say it’s the norm.

Well it’s not. And it’s ******g mental if we’re seriosuly saying to toddlers that they can choose which sex they want to be.

It really needs to stop. All of this touchy feely stuff isn’t doing anyone any good at all.

If you’re born a male, you’re a male. You can pretend otherwise but that’s all your doing.

Go seek help.

Maybe you should put down your copy of the Daily Mail and unfollow Piers Morgan on Twitter for a short while. It seems to be making you really sad and miserable reading these stories that are designed to annoy and infuriate easily manipulated people.

[Mantis Toboggan]

Fair enough.

Do you expect all of society to?

“Non binary genders” really? Where does this stuff come from?!!

People. Where all stuff usually comes from.
Also, m/f are the two sexes, but there can be more genders than that.

[WhileTheChief..]

So where do we draw the line?

If someone just says they identify as female I’m assuming that’s not quite enough to start using female changing rooms for example?

So if they wear what is seen as female clothing does that then cut it?

Do they have to have had treatment to qualify?

How do you think young girls would feel when an older man that says he identifies as female strolls into their toilets or whatever?

None of you have thought this through or considered the wider implications.

[WhileTheChief..]

Maybe you should put down your copy of the Daily Mail and unfollow Piers Morgan on Twitter for a short while. It seems to be making you really sad and miserable reading these stories that are designed to annoy and infuriate easily manipulated people.

I don’t do either.

I’m not sad or miserable, I just have a different view to you guys.

Why can’t you accept that?

[WhileTheChief..]

People. Where all stuff usually comes from.
Also, m/f are the two sexes, but there can be more genders than that.

So what are these extra genders?

Why wasn’t I taught this at school?

[Mantis Toboggan]

I don’t do either.

I’m not sad or miserable, I just have a different view to you guys.

Why can’t you accept that?

Because your view is actually you having a go at minority groups.

[CropleyWasGod]

So what are these extra genders?

Why wasn’t I taught this at school?

Because Western society is only beginning to deal with the issues.

In the same way that same-sex relationships were something to grapple with a generation or so ago, the issue of gender-identification is the social issue of this era.

No-one is suggesting that we have it right, but if you start with a desire for respect, that has to be a good basis.

I am guessing that you haven't had close personal experience of this, or any other marginalised, group. What would be your reaction if someone close to you told you that they wanted to identify as a gender they weren't born with?

[WhileTheChief..]

Which minority group do you think I’ve had a go at?

I’ve not mentioned any.

[WhileTheChief..]

If someone close to me came to me with this as a concern then after discussions I’d probably suggest they speak to a doctor in the first instance and seek professional help.

[Mantis Toboggan]

You know exactly who you are having a go at, and are just repeating yourself now. Pretty sad really that you can't/won't show compassion/understanding as far as this goes.

[CropleyWasGod]

If someone close to me came to me with this as a concern then after discussions I’d probably suggest they speak to a doctor in the first instance and seek professional help.

So no personal empathy?

[WhileTheChief..]

If you read what I’d said, you’ll see that I’m saying these people need help. I repeated that.

That is showing compassion.

You’re trying to imply that I’m saying something else.

[Rocky]

If you read what I’d said, you’ll see that I’m saying these people need help. I repeated that.

That is showing compassion.

You’re trying to imply that I’m saying something else.

Do you accept that men can be attracted to men and women can be attracted to women?

[Mantis Toboggan]

If you read what I’d said, you’ll see that I’m saying these people need help. I repeated that.

That is showing compassion.

You’re trying to imply that I’m saying something else.

I've read what you said. How is equating the genuine feelings of people with a mental illness (which is what you are doing) showing compassion?

[Lester B]

If you read what I’d said, you’ll see that I’m saying these people need help. I repeated that.

That is showing compassion.

You’re trying to imply that I’m saying something else.

Got your post #69. Show me exactly where this compassion is in that.

No one is implying anything. We're reading what you have written in that and subsequent posts.

[WhileTheChief..]

Of course if its a friend or relative that comes to me I’m going to be concerned and show empathy.

What I’m not going to do do is go ok, what should we call you now?

If someone is so troubled that they question their own gender then they clearly have issues. Why are you refusing to see that?

You already said that your friends daughter was troubled.

I’m assuming she got professional help and didn’t just fly abroad somewhere to get an operation done?

[WhileTheChief..]

I've read what you said. How is equating the genuine feelings of people with a mental illness (which is what you are doing) showing compassion?

Because I think there’s an element of mental illness if you’re confused as to what gender you are.

[WhileTheChief..]

Do you accept that men can be attracted to men and women can be attracted to women?

Probably best you just stay out of the conversation if that’s the kind of contribution you’re going to make.

[Lester B]

Probably best you just stay out of the conversation if that’s the kind of contribution you’re going to make.

It's a fair question as not unrelated and your answer may well be instructive. Otherwise people may imply and you really don't like that

[WhileTheChief..]

Erm, I’m gay.

Not that it should matter though eh?

[CropleyWasGod]

Of course if its a friend or relative that comes to me I’m going to be concerned and show empathy.

What I’m not going to do do is go ok, what should we call you now?

If someone is so troubled that they question their own gender then they clearly have issues. Why are you refusing to see that?

You already said that your friends daughter was troubled.

I’m assuming she got professional help and didn’t just fly abroad somewhere to get an operation done?

The first thing they got was love and understanding from their family. Sadly, not everyone gets that.

FYI.... "what should we call you?" is actually very important in terms of empathy and support. My pal now counsels parents going through the same process. His opinion is that "once you get the pronoun right, you're on the right lines...."

[Rocky]

Probably best you just stay out of the conversation if that’s the kind of contribution you’re going to make.

I had a feeling you wouldn't answer. They way you talk about gender identity now (it's a mental illness, they need to go to doc) has a lot of similarity to how people spoke about homosexuality 20/30 years ago. Those people didn't land on the right side of history.

[WhileTheChief..]

Ask cropleywasgod if his mates daughter seaked medical help? I’d be gobsmacked if she didn’t.

I’ve already answered your ridiculous question. You chose to ignore it.

[Lester B]

Ask cropleywasgod if his mates daughter seaked medical help? I’d be gobsmacked if she didn’t.

I’ve already answered your ridiculous question. You chose to ignore it.

You do realise that Rocky may not have seen that reply. It is instructive. And if the person did seek medical help which is almost certain would you expect the medical professional to say "It really needs to stop. All of this touchy feely stuff isn’t doing anyone any good at all." [Your words]

[WhileTheChief..]

Nope of course not.

I’m not a medical professional though and this is merely a forum not a consultants office.

[Lester B]

Nope of course not.

I’m not a medical professional though and this is merely a forum not a consultants office.

Thanks. I am aware of that.

Would you expect them to say "If you’re born a male, you’re a male. You can pretend otherwise but that’s all your doing" Again 'Nope of course not'????

So is this therefore an inadvertent confession that your views are ill informed nonsense??

[WhileTheChief..]

I’ll leave you to it.

[CropleyWasGod]

Erm, I’m gay.

Not that it should matter though eh?

It would matter if, being part of a marginalised group of society, you weren't able to empathise with another marginalised group.

That's not uncommon, I have to say. There are many gay men and women who will refuse to support their counterparts.

Thankfully, there are certain groups of society who, in my experience, do consider themselves as allies. Gay men and women, transgender, those with HIV, sex workers, migrants... many of these groups do intersect, because they recognise the marginalisation and stigmatisation that they all have in common.

[WhileTheChief..]

I don’t feel marginalised at all and if you’re insinuating that I somehow resent or dislike other gay people then you’re way off the mark.

[CropleyWasGod]

I don’t feel marginalised at all and if you’re insinuating that I somehow resent or dislike other gay people then you’re way off the mark.

Not even close to insinuating that.

However, the point has been made by others that, as a gay man, you might recognise some of the stigmatisation and marginalisation that young transgender, transitioning, non-binary and confused people might be experiencing.

[Lester B]

I don’t feel marginalised at all and if you’re insinuating that I somehow resent or dislike other gay people then you’re way off the mark.

How can you possibly take that insulation from what CWG wrote? Seriously, how? Have you read their post more than once? You can't have done if that is your response

[lapsedhibee]

I would have questioned why the person is mentioning the colour of the men's skin, most younger people who watch the advert will only see 43 male men.

I only saw 67 adults. :na na:

[WhileTheChief..]

How can you possibly take that insulation from what CWG wrote? Seriously, how? Have you read their post more than once? You can't have done if that is your response

I asked him if was insinuating that and he clarified that he wasn’t.

He said the following “There are many gay men and women who will refuse to support their counterparts.”

In the context of the conversation I think it was reasonable to ask if he was directing that comment at me.

Do you actually read any of what I’m saying or are you deliberately misconstruing it?

[Danderhall Hibs]

So how many genders are there then?

[danhibees1875]

I asked him if was insinuating that and he clarified that he wasn’t.

He said the following “There are many gay men and women who will refuse to support their counterparts.”

In the context of the conversation I think it was reasonable to ask if he was directing that comment at me.

Do you actually read any of what I’m saying or are you deliberately misconstruing it?

Sorry for jumping in on your debate but I'm curious, how much of your original post:


Gender neutral? Wtf.

There’s male and female, that’s it.

If you’re a male that identifies as female then fine. You can’t expect the rest of society’s to adjust to that way of thinking though.

In days gone buy these people would have got medical help. Now we’re trying to say it’s the norm.

Well it’s not. And it’s ******g mental if we’re seriosuly saying to toddlers that they can choose which sex they want to be.

It really needs to stop. All of this touchy feely stuff isn’t doing anyone any good at all.

If you’re born a male, you’re a male. You can pretend otherwise but that’s all your doing.

Go seek help

do you think would have been said 50 years ago about someone who said they were gay?

I'm not going to pretent to have all the answers or even half understand the complex nature of gender/sexual identification and the numerous facets that have came to light but I just accept that people are different and want to lead their lives in their own way and they've every right to do so.

[CropleyWasGod]

So how many genders are there then?

When I was a lad, it was easy. There were 4; masculine, feminine, common and neuter.

However, that was its grammatical meaning; it was how nouns were classified. Somewhere along the line the word was hijacked from grammar to sex.

To answer your question.... as many as you want. Some countries recognise 3 on a passport. Some indigenous cultures recognise more.

Here's a starter for you. :greengrin

http://thepbhscloset.weebly.com/a-list-of-genders--sexualities-and-their-definitions.html

[WhileTheChief..]

Sorry for jumping in on your debate but I'm curious, how much of your original post:



do you think would have been said 50 years ago about someone who said they were gay?

I'm not going to pretent to have all the answers or even half understand the complex nature of gender/sexual identification and the numerous facets that have came to light but I just accept that people are different and want to lead their lives in their own way and they've every right to do so.

I can’t comment re 50 years ago.

Regarding your last line I 100% agree that people should be able to live their lives as they want.

But what if that has an impact on others in society? Do we just ignore them and treat someone from a minority group as special at their expense?

If kids at school are being taught that it’s ok to question their gender then that is just fundamentally wrong. It’s not ok. You’re not doing these kids any favours at all.

If at my age I decide to dress up as a woman that is also fine. I’m a fully grown adult that can make choices. A 3 year old can’t.

[lapsedhibee]

http://thepbhscloset.weebly.com/a-list-of-genders--sexualities-and-their-definitions.html

Something wrong with this one shirley:
Novigender- A gender that is super complex and impossible to describe in a single term.
:faint:

[CropleyWasGod]

Something wrong with this one shirley:
Novigender- A gender that is super complex and impossible to describe in a single term.
:faint:

It's the next Marvel film.

[CropleyWasGod]

I can’t comment re 50 years ago.

Regarding your last line I 100% agree that people should be able to live their lives as they want.

But what if that has an impact on others in society? Do we just ignore them and treat someone from a minority group as special at their expense?

If kids at school are being taught that it’s ok to question their gender then that is just fundamentally wrong. It’s not ok. You’re not doing these kids any favours at all.

If at my age I decide to dress up as a woman that is also fine. I’m a fully grown adult that can make choices. A 3 year old can’t.

Are they?

That sounds a bit like the arguments in the Section 28 debate, tbh.

[WhileTheChief..]

I don’t know, hence the “If”.

[Slavers]

Yes I'd suggest that someone who sits and counts colours has an agenda at play - does that answer your question?

Do you mean the person who produces the commercial for Gillette or the person making the comment on it?

Both seem to have been counting the colours?

[Rocky]

Do you mean the person who produces the commercial for Gillette or the person making the comment on it?

Both seem to have been counting the colours?

I don't know what the mix of colours in the commercial is, or what the recruitment process for it was so I can't comment on the producer. Certainly the person making the comment had an agenda.

[danhibees1875]

I can’t comment re 50 years ago.

Regarding your last line I 100% agree that people should be able to live their lives as they want.

But what if that has an impact on others in society? Do we just ignore them and treat someone from a minority group as special at their expense?

If kids at school are being taught that it’s ok to question their gender then that is just fundamentally wrong. It’s not ok. You’re not doing these kids any favours at all.

If at my age I decide to dress up as a woman that is also fine. I’m a fully grown adult that can make choices. A 3 year old can’t.

You don't need to comment on 50 years ago, but I'm sure we could both imagine the reaction being similar. Men like woman and that's it, get a grip.

Your last two paragraphs seem to be based on an idea that kids do get taught it which I've not seen anyone suggest they do. I do however think if a child begins to question things on his own accord then he should be encouraged to think it through and know that life isn't black and white and that he's free to make his own choices.

The bit between those 2 I think you maybe have a point on though, the impact it has on others. Of course it has no impact on me (or anyone) if someone else is gay, transgender, or whatever but a practical solutions to changing and bathroom facilities for instance is probably in order. I'd suggest not designating them to any specific person and having single cubicles anyone can use which a few places already have.

[Danderhall Hibs]

I would have questioned why the person is mentioning the colour of the men's skin, most younger people who watch the advert will only see 43 male men.

Agreed - I hadn’t considered it until I read this. But it looks like those moral guardians at Gillette noticed and deliberately fixed it?

[Danderhall Hibs]

Saw an advert for Flash tonight and they’ve got a man with the rubber gloves on scrubbing the bath.

Does anyone think we’ll ever be allowed to see a woman advertise Flash again?

[CropleyWasGod]

Saw an advert for Flash tonight and they’ve got a man with the rubber gloves on scrubbing the bath.

Does anyone think we’ll ever be allowed to see a woman advertise Flash again?

No, because no woman could ever be better than Molly Weir.

[RyeSloan]

Saw an advert for Flash tonight and they’ve got a man with the rubber gloves on scrubbing the bath.

Does anyone think we’ll ever be allowed to see a woman advertise Flash again?

Do mums still go to Iceland?

As it is I think there are new advertising rules that have strengthened the rules against gender stereotyping so I’m pretty sure you won’t see a flash advert with only women in it again.

[calumhibee1]

So where do we draw the line?

If someone just says they identify as female I’m assuming that’s not quite enough to start using female changing rooms for example?

So if they wear what is seen as female clothing does that then cut it?

Do they have to have had treatment to qualify?

How do you think young girls would feel when an older man that says he identifies as female strolls into their toilets or whatever?

None of you have thought this through or considered the wider implications.

I’ve actually wondered about a few of they questions before. Would be interesting to hear the answer. I wouldn’t expect to be able to just walk into the women’s changing rooms at the gym tomorrow and tell them I identify as a woman so I’ll be using this one from now on.

By the way, I’ve no issue with folk identifying as whatever they want. Has absolutely no impact on me. If it makes someone’s life better then go for it. I’m not going to pretend to understand all the different phrases etc though :greengrin

[Callum_62]

Very interesting topic for me to read

I lived 14 years in NZ with its rich and diverse cultures. Samoans with there fafafinis and lots of asian cultures where trans sexuals are much more common

Infact Our best friend in NZ is transexual - he identifies as a female. He is pre op but does have a boob job. We always identified him as a female. I guess your idea of what defines gender will dictate how you feel on this.
Does having the reproductive organs of a male make you one- or is it what you feel inside that counts, and then you believe-that you are fixed into that scale. Non binary gender doesn’t mean necessarily that people who identify as such identify as no gender. They feel they don’t fit into the old way of describing male and female. Its a broad, diverse category which cant be pigeon holed

In the main I find the UK incredibly antiquated in many areas, but particularly in this one


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lester B]

I asked him if was insinuating that and he clarified that he wasn’t.

He said the following “There are many gay men and women who will refuse to support their counterparts.”

In the context of the conversation I think it was reasonable to ask if he was directing that comment at me.

Do you actually read any of what I’m saying or are you deliberately misconstruing it?

Wow. That's a new low.

CWG has already clarified his position and provided some context to what, even from a cursory reading of his post was clear. Namely that his reference to counterparts referred to others within society who are, or could be perceived as, marginalised. The sentence you quote therefore needs to viewed as part of the full post where there is ample context for the use of word counterparts and therefore its meaning within the quoted sentence within that context is abundantly clear.

Yet your hubris continues quite shamelessly to the extent that you accuse me of not reading properly and misconstruing; the precise things you have done in relation to his post on the subject. I don't know CWG. They seem to be a smart compassionate person and certainly doesn't need me to defend them. But my new year resolution is to fight dinosaurs.

I have read your posts. I see nothing within there to misconstrue. Your original post, which I questioned in relation to your subsequent claim of compassion (you have not replied to my question on that unsurprisingly), is profoundly reactionary and offensive to trans people particularly young trans people. Since then you have sought to defend this position with some attempts at claiming to be misunderstood. As long as post #69 in this thread remains visible such attempts are disingenuous and frankly risible.

As Gore Vidal said: My side of these exchanges is now complete. Let others argue elsewhere.

[Rocky]

Very interesting topic for me to read

I lived 14 years in NZ with its rich and diverse cultures. Samoans with there fafafinis and lots of asian cultures where trans sexuals are much more common

Infact Our best friend in NZ is transexual - he identifies as a female. He is pre op but does have a boob job. We always identified him as a female. I guess your idea of what defines gender will dictate how you feel on this.
Does having the reproductive organs of a male make you one- or is it what you feel inside that counts, and then you believe-that you are fixed into that scale. Non binary gender doesn’t mean necessarily that people who identify as such identify as no gender. They feel they don’t fit into the old way of describing male and female. Its a broad, diverse category which cant be pigeon holed

In the main I find the UK incredibly antiquated in many areas, but particularly in this one


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How do they handle the toilet situation in NZ? This is one I'm torn on as I can understand that someone who identifies as female but looks male may well feel more comfortable in a ladies toilet. However I also understand the concerns of women who really can't tell if someone in the ladies who looks like a fella genuinely identifies as a female but in reality is just there for some cheap thrills (or worse).

I can already sense a couple of posters' heads exploding at the very question...

[Callum_62]

How do they handle the toilet situation in NZ? This is one I'm torn on as I can understand that someone who identifies as female but looks male may well feel more comfortable in a ladies toilet. However I also understand the concerns of women who really can't tell if someone in the ladies who looks like a fella genuinely identifies as a female but in reality is just there for some cheap thrills (or worse).

I can already sense a couple of posters' heads exploding at the very question...

Our friend usually used the males- but to be honest, alot you wouldn’t even bat an eyelid at being anything other than female - so they could use whatever they preferred in reality.

The general public (that i seen) were much more accepting of this situation

Cross dressers generally always use the toilet that matches there genitalia [emoji23]

More and more unisex toilets are being provided - like at Auckland Uni for example

https://www.auckland.ac.nz/en/on-campus/student-support/personal-support/lgbti-students/unisex-toilets-on-campus.html

This opinion piece in the Dom Post makes it all sound much ado about nothing- which I believe is the normal, progressive NZ way

https://i.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/comment/editorials/93197115/editorial-going-genderneutral-is-not-a-big-problem


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[Pete]

First time I’ve seen it and it’s an excellent advert as far as messages go. You’d have to be pretty insecure to find any issues with that.

There’s so much positivity involved that the negativity will be drowned out...yet the Gillette theme somehow resonates throughout.

Gillette isn’t half easy to spell on autocorrect 🤣

[Colr]

First time I’ve seen it and it’s an excellent advert as far as messages go. You’d have to be pretty insecure to find any issues with that.

There’s so much positivity involved that the negativity will be drowned out...yet the Gillette theme somehow resonates throughout.

Gillette isn’t half easy to spell on autocorrect ��

I think the ones complaining may very well have insecurity issues.

That said, Gillette stuff is a huge con. Switched to a Merkur razor and ‘Feather’ blades which are 17p each rather than a few quid for Gillette ones. Thr beard’s even cheaper!

[WhileTheChief..]

Very interesting topic for me to read

I lived 14 years in NZ with its rich and diverse cultures. Samoans with there fafafinis and lots of asian cultures where trans sexuals are much more common

Infact Our best friend in NZ is transexual - he identifies as a female. He is pre op but does have a boob job. We always identified him as a female. I guess your idea of what defines gender will dictate how you feel on this.
Does having the reproductive organs of a male make you one- or is it what you feel inside that counts, and then you believe-that you are fixed into that scale. Non binary gender doesn’t mean necessarily that people who identify as such identify as no gender. They feel they don’t fit into the old way of describing male and female. Its a broad, diverse category which cant be pigeon holed

In the main I find the UK incredibly antiquated in many areas, but particularly in this one


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Does the law treat him as male or female?

I know a lad that at weekends dresses up as female - Fri or Sat nights at Polo lounge in Glasgow and you would never for a moment think he was a bloke.

Monday morning he’s back at work in shirt and tie etc.

If he drove home drunk one night and killed someone can he then go to court dressed as a female, claim he identifies that way and therefore avoid going to a men’s prison?

If it was a Saturday night he’d be dressed all female so could maybe claim that? If it was a Wednesday night and he was in his suit?

Would it depend on how long he’d been doing this? Is there a test he has to pass to prove his which way he identifies?

It’s a nonsense. He’s a guy dressed as a female and should be treated as such. He’d agree with me by the way.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Do mums still go to Iceland?

As it is I think there are new advertising rules that have strengthened the rules against gender stereotyping so I’m pretty sure you won’t see a flash advert with only women in it again.

There’s no chance Mums will go to Iceland anymore. It’ll be dads that do that, after they’ve cleaned the bathroom and kitchen obviously.

[Callum_62]

Does the law treat him as male or female?

I know a lad that at weekends dresses up as female - Fri or Sat nights at Polo lounge in Glasgow and you would never for a moment think he was a bloke.

Monday morning he’s back at work in shirt and tie etc.

If he drove home drunk one night and killed someone can he then go to court dressed as a female, claim he identifies that way and therefore avoid going to a men’s prison?

If it was a Saturday night he’d be dressed all female so could maybe claim that? If it was a Wednesday night and he was in his suit?

Would it depend on how long he’d been doing this? Is there a test he has to pass to prove his which way he identifies?

It’s a nonsense. He’s a guy dressed as a female and should be treated as such. He’d agree with me by the way.

Thats because that lad is a cross dresser not a trans sexual- totally different


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[Hibrandenburg]

How do you think young girls would feel when an older man that says he identifies as female strolls into their toilets or whatever?

Probably similar to what most straight men felt standing next to overtly gay men at the urinal 30 years ago. Times and reasonable people's attitudes change.

[CropleyWasGod]

Does the law treat him as male or female?

I know a lad that at weekends dresses up as female - Fri or Sat nights at Polo lounge in Glasgow and you would never for a moment think he was a bloke.

Monday morning he’s back at work in shirt and tie etc.

If he drove home drunk one night and killed someone can he then go to court dressed as a female, claim he identifies that way and therefore avoid going to a men’s prison?

If it was a Saturday night he’d be dressed all female so could maybe claim that? If it was a Wednesday night and he was in his suit?

Would it depend on how long he’d been doing this? Is there a test he has to pass to prove his which way he identifies?

It’s a nonsense. He’s a guy dressed as a female and should be treated as such. He’d agree with me by the way.

No.

[Fife-Hibee]

There seems to be an agender added to just about everything these days. So not all that surprised to find it in an advert for a type of product that everybody needs.

I think the MSM need to stop tarring men as idiotic barbaric gorillas though. People will be who they want to be regardless of their gender and regardless of how they're told they should be.

[Colr]

I’ve actually wondered about a few of they questions before. Would be interesting to hear the answer. I wouldn’t expect to be able to just walk into the women’s changing rooms at the gym tomorrow and tell them I identify as a woman so I’ll be using this one from now on.

By the way, I’ve no issue with folk identifying as whatever they want. Has absolutely no impact on me. If it makes someone’s life better then go for it. I’m not going to pretend to understand all the different phrases etc though :greengrin

On the subject, here’s some fun and games from my neck of the woods.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/female-campaigners-selfidentify-as-men-to-infiltrate-male-only-pool-at-hampstead-heath-a3850556.html

[overdrive]

Not even close to insinuating that.

However, the point has been made by others that, as a gay man, you might recognise some of the stigmatisation and marginalisation that young transgender, transitioning, non-binary and confused people might be experiencing.

Interestingly, the people that I know that are most anti-transsexual and anti-gender fluidity are gay men (excluding a female colleague who would make most of far right America look positively like extreme-left liberal communists). One gay friend used to supervise a transsexual swimming club and found the whole thing disgusting to the point of vomiting. Hardly any of my other friends, aquaintences, etc. give two ****s about it.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Why would a transsexual swimming club need to be supervised? Bitch fest?

[CropleyWasGod]

Interestingly, the people that I know that are most anti-transsexual and anti-gender fluidity are gay men (excluding a female colleague who would make most of far right America look positively like extreme-left liberal communists). One gay friend used to supervise a transsexual swimming club and found the whole thing disgusting to the point of vomiting. Hardly any of my other friends, aquaintences, etc. give two ****s about it.

It's not an uncommon situation. There's a lot of debate in gay political environments about the transgender issue.

Equally, there's a fair amount of misogyny amongst gay men as well.

Bigots are bigots.

[Fife-Hibee]

It's not an uncommon situation. There's a lot of debate in gay political environments about the transgender issue.

Equally, there's a fair amount of misogyny amongst gay men as well.

Bigots are bigots.

Then technically we're all bigots then, because we all have things in our lives that make us feel uneasy or uncomfortable. It's a natural human condition, not some manufactured prejudice that people hold just for the sake of it.

For example, i'm intolerant towards Conservative politics. So by definition, that makes me a bigot because I refuse to be accepting of them.

[CropleyWasGod]

Then technically we're all bigots then, because we all have things in our lives that make us feel uneasy or uncomfortable. It's a natural human condition, not some manufactured prejudice that people hold just for the sake of it.

For example, i'm intolerant towards Conservative politics. So by definition, that makes me a bigot because I refuse to be accepting of them.

There's a big difference between things that make us uncomfortable and bigotry.

Merriam's definition of bigotry:-

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigot

[Fife-Hibee]

There's a big difference between things that make us uncomfortable and bigotry.

Merriam's definition of bigotry:-

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigot

The definition of bigotry seems to be inconsistent. With it being stated quite commonly as simply being intolerant towards different views. Well I find some views intolerable, so by that definition, i'm a bigot and so is everybody else.

[CropleyWasGod]

The definition of bigotry seems to be inconsistent. With it being stated quite commonly as simply being intolerant towards different views. Well I find some views intolerable, so by that definition, i'm a bigot and so is everybody else.

You may be speaking for yourself 😉 Certainly not speaking for me. There's a difference between disliking or disagreeing, and being intolerant.

It's all about respect, which is the underlying theme in this debate.

[Fife-Hibee]

You may be speaking for yourself 😉 Certainly not speaking for me. There's a difference between disliking or disagreeing, and being intolerant.

It's all about respect, which is the underlying theme in this debate.

But there must certainly be views out there that you find so abhorrent that you couldn't possibly respect? It's not always a simple case of just respectfully disagreeing.

[CropleyWasGod]

But there must certainly be views out there that you find so abhorrent that you couldn't possibly respect? It's not always a simple case of just respectfully disagreeing.

Only the one that says old people have no sense when it comes to voting. 😉

Yep there are some that I can't understand or deeply disagree with. But intolerance? That suggests being unable to live with. Thankfully, I'm not built like that.

[overdrive]

Why would a transsexual swimming club need to be supervised? Bitch fest?

He worked for a charity that organised the club. I think he was there to make sure folk were signed in, had paid, etc. He definitely wasn’t involved in the actual swimming side (he’s the least sporty person I know) though he did have to wait until the end watching it for some reason.

[Fife-Hibee]

Only the one that says old people have no sense when it comes to voting. 😉

Yep there are some that I can't understand or deeply disagree with. But intolerance? That suggests being unable to live with. Thankfully, I'm not built like that.

So you can live happily knowing that there are murderers, rapists and other such things going on in the world. Because according to yourself, you have absolutely no intolerances whatsoever?

[Pretty Boy]

So you can live happily knowing that there are murderers, rapists and other such things going on in the world. Because according to yourself, you have absolutely no intolerances whatsoever?

Are you honestly trying to somehow equate homosexuality or gender identity with rape and murder?

I can't help think you are just looking for an argument here as surely anyone can see the difference between finding a rapist intolerable and having an active prejudice against a man who finds other men attractive.

[Fife-Hibee]

Are you honestly trying to somehow equate homosexuality or gender identity with rape and murder?

I can't help think you are just looking for an argument here as surely anyone can see the difference between finding a rapist intolerable and having an active prejudice against a man who finds other men attractive.

The definition of bigotry doesn't care whether it equates or not. It's an intolerance towards other peoples views, regardless of what those views are. That's the point i'm making here.

[Pretty Boy]

The definition of bigotry doesn't care whether it equates or not. It's an intolerance towards other peoples views, regardless of what those views are. That's the point i'm making here.

So we throw common sense out the window and base all our opinions and views strictly on dictionary definitions? Seems reasonable.

[Fife-Hibee]

So we throw common sense out the window and base all our opinions and views strictly on dictionary definitions? Seems reasonable.

Well you say common sense. But who really gets to decide what views should be tolerated and which one's are ok not to tolerate? Surely it comes down to the perspective of the individual and if you refuse to tolerate a view that somebody else holds, then they're going to percieve you as a bigot.

[lapsedhibee]

Well you say common sense. But who really gets to decide what views should be tolerated and which one's are ok not to tolerate? Surely it comes down to the perspective of the individual and if you refuse to tolerate a view that somebody else holds, then they're going to percieve you as a bigot.

No. Because though you may be right with your logic, language is also about usage. Someone who won't tolerate murder is not a bigot.

[Fife-Hibee]

No. Because though you may be right with your logic, language is also about usage. Someone who won't tolerate murder is not a bigot.

Who gets to decide that? Bigotry is a perspective, not a definitive indisputable claim. They'll be people out there who think you're a bigot. It's not a case of whether they're right or wrong. Their own assertion of you is right in their own mind and that's all that's going to matter to them.

I think Tommy Robinson's a bigot. But he clearly isn't a bigot in the minds of those who follow him. In their minds i'm the bigot for not tolerating his views.

[lapsedhibee]

Who gets to decide that? Bigotry is a perspective, not a definitive indisputable claim. They'll be people out there who think you're a bigot. It's not a case of whether they're right or wrong. Their own assertion of you is right in their own mind and that's all that's going to matter to them.

Language and the meaning of words are public things. Tommy Robinson thinking that you're a bigot does not make you a bigot.
Any more than Tommy Robinson thinking the earth is flat makes it flat.

[Rocky]

Who gets to decide that? Bigotry is a perspective, not a definitive indisputable claim. They'll be people out there who think you're a bigot. It's not a case of whether they're right or wrong. Their own assertion of you is right in their own mind and that's all that's going to matter to them.

I think Tommy Robinson's a bigot. But he clearly isn't a bigot in the minds of those who follow him. In their minds i'm the bigot for not tolerating his views.

Are you sitting tying yourself in knots because of a definition of bigotry that doesn't appear in any dictionary?

[Mantis Toboggan]

Does bigotry not imply some sort of mindlessness, i.e. hating without reason?

[Rocky]

Does bigotry not imply some sort of mindlessness, i.e. hating without reason?

Exactly that. I may take the view that Catholic priests are more predisposed to sexual abuse than other segments of society. Whether that's right or not, if it's based on my evaluation of available evidence, as opposed to my brainwashed opinions or prejudices, it's not bigotry.

[Fife-Hibee]

Does bigotry not imply some sort of mindlessness, i.e. hating without reason?

Hating without justifiable reason. But whether a reason is justified or not is down to the interpretation of the person claiming that somebody is a bigot.

[Fife-Hibee]

Language and the meaning of words are public things. Tommy Robinson thinking that you're a bigot does not make you a bigot.
Any more than Tommy Robinson thinking the earth is flat makes it flat.


You can't compare the claim of bigotry to the claim of a flat earth. Because bigotry is a concept, where as the earth is a physical tangible object. Odds are, if you call somebody else a bigot, they're going to percieve you as one. In terms of who is right and who is wrong is ultimately down to the perspective of the individuals who choose who they side with.

[Rocky]

You can't compare the claim of bigotry to the claim of a flat earth. Because bigotry is a concept, where as the earth is a physical tangible object. Odds are, if you call somebody else a bigot, they're going to percieve you as one. In terms of who is right and who is wrong is ultimately down to the perspective of the individuals who choose who they side with.

I'm sure you think of yourself as open minded and deep. That happens with the best of intentions so fair play. But put your own intellectual prejudices to one side for a minute and read your own messages and I think you'll realise that you're slavering pish under the pretence of some kind of philosophical point.

[RyeSloan]

I'm sure you think of yourself as open minded and deep. That happens with the best of intentions so fair play. But put your own intellectual prejudices to one side for a minute and read your own messages and I think you'll realise that you're slavering pish under the pretence of some kind of philosophical point.

Ouch! [emoji1787]

[Pete]

Ouch! [emoji1787]

I thought it was slightly harsh myself but as this is one mad thread then maybe not.

I don’t know what’s what any more. 😳

[Colr]

Being a bully isn’t manly and its certainly not the actions of a gentleman.

As far as I could see the advert portrays men standing up against bullying.

Their stuffs still overpriced, though

[RyeSloan]

Their stiffs still overpriced, though

Think that’s a different company / product all together though [emoji23]