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Antifa Hibs
14-01-2019, 09:39 AM
Seen this on social media this morning (source is the club email to its members). How does it compare to HSL?

-6300 members from 27 countries (youngest is 5 months oldest is 96)
-over £700k passed to the football side of the business in the 2018/2019 season

Not sure if the £700,000 is net or gross as they did issue 4000 free home strips to their early bird members I think.

*Not wanting to start any rammy's about HSL just genuinely interested in the numbers

makaveli1875
14-01-2019, 09:59 AM
Seen this on social media this morning (source is the club email to its members). How does it compare to HSL?

-6300 members from 27 countries (youngest is 5 months oldest is 96)
-over £700k passed to the football side of the business in the 2018/2019 season

Not sure if the £700,000 is net or gross as they did issue 4000 free home strips to their early bird members I think.

*Not wanting to start any rammy's about HSL just genuinely interested in the numbers

From HSL website there are 2300 donators raising 680k

so if the figures are all correct aberdna has nearly 3x the members and have raised only 20k more in funds .

Heckys Wheel
14-01-2019, 10:03 AM
From HSL website there are 2300 donators raising 680k

so if the figures are all correct aberdna has nearly 3x the members and have raised only 20k more in funds .

Is 680k not total funds raised?

Aberdeen raised 700k last year alone?

jacomo
14-01-2019, 10:09 AM
Seen this on social media this morning (source is the club email to its members). How does it compare to HSL?

-6300 members from 27 countries (youngest is 5 months oldest is 96)
-over £700k passed to the football side of the business in the 2018/2019 season

Not sure if the £700,000 is net or gross as they did issue 4000 free home strips to their early bird members I think.

*Not wanting to start any rammy's about HSL just genuinely interested in the numbers


£700k is certainly not the net figure. AberDNA is a membership scheme which offers a large range of discounts and offers - the true net value to the club will depend on the take up of these.

Their marketing is good though, whereas HSL often feels like something separate to the club. As LD pushed for this scheme I think she needs to do some work to make it feel like a core effort.

hibbydad
14-01-2019, 10:14 AM
Aberdeen have raised £700 k in 1 year alone our £680 is iver several years. My understanding is we are at the equivalent of £180k per annum. As I have said on here before the sheep and the yams are leaving us miles behind

NAE NOOKIE
14-01-2019, 12:57 PM
We shouldn't make comparisons with Foundation of Hearts for all of the valid reasons already discussed ad nauseum on here. But we can more realistically compare ourselves to AberDNA and in all honesty it doesn't make for good reading.

This is a club with a fanbase roughly the same size as ours, though they probably have more casual supporters having gathered themselves a number of glory hunters during the 80s. But irrespective of that the number of members their scheme has gathered over a far shorter period of time than HSL is highly impressive. It can be argued that their members get benefits HSL members don't, but HSL members become part of an organisation which will eventually have a big voice in the Easter Road boardroom as a major shareholder in the club … that's far more valuable than a free strip and 10% off a pie and Bovril I would suggest.

Questions have to be asked along the lines of why AberDNA has three times the number of contributors HSL has. Freebies aside, what are they doing that HSL isn't? I firmly don't believe that Aberdeen have more loyal fans than Hibs, in fact when they are doing badly their crowds plummet just as quickly as anybody else's, so it isn't that.

It seems to me that we need to ramp up awareness of HSL, what it is and what it will become ( IE a donation group for folk who care about this club once the shares run out ) because so far it is abundantly clear that whatever HSL have done and are doing hasn't worked anything like he way they would have hoped and any reasons given for that are going to look pretty weak when you look at what Aberdeen have managed to do.

Here's three questions and I would be interested to hear the answers …. I made these 3 points month ago and have still to see any evidence that HSL, or other interested parties, have paid any attention.

1) …… The top deck of the south stand is empty at 80% of our home games, why does HSL not have a massive banner on that deck advertising itself to the between 13 and 15 thousand Hibs fans in the ground who would be able to see it …. at least 10,000 or more of whom wont be HSL members?

2) ….. Is there an advert for HSL in the club programme for each home game? … And I mean a full page advert on the page facing the managers notes, not quarter of a page buried amongst a load of other ads for joiners and funeral homes?

3) ….. Why isn't there a 'sticky' at the top of this forum which will allow folk to read about HSL with links to its website? ….. Jambos Kickback has had a sticky like that for FOH at the top of its main forum for the last 5 years.

The Spaceman
14-01-2019, 01:08 PM
I know a lot of HSL will be voluntary, but the whole set up needs to be a lot more slick/professional. It is almost too casual to be fully believable/trustworthy. It feels like some of your money could be used to buy the people running it some extra pints. Absolutely ridiculous I know and of course that absolutely is not the case, but I think we need someone who is officially employed by the club itself to be fully in charge of it and market it professionally. All IMO of course.

hibbydad
14-01-2019, 01:14 PM
The whole point of it is that it has to be indepedent of the club. Agree with most of what Nae Nookie says the benefit for supporters would be a better team on the park which is what we all want

MyJo
14-01-2019, 01:16 PM
At some point we're just going to have to accept that Hibs fans aren't as willing or able to contribute towards a scheme like this over and above the normal costs of supporting the team. I don't believe that there can be a majority of our support that are unaware of HSL at this stage.

Whether that is down to us not being in crisis like Hearts were when FOH was launched or our fanbase isn't as extensive or as well off as those in the north-east that support Aberdeen or that neither of those clubs have a noisy portion of their own supporters railing against them and calling them rip-offs and Ponzi schemes to anyone that will listen there is only so much marketing that can help with that.

Speedway
14-01-2019, 01:21 PM
At some point we're just going to have to accept that Hibs fans aren't as willing or able to contribute towards a scheme like this over and above the normal costs of supporting the team. I don't believe that there can be a majority of our support that are unaware of HSL at this stage.

Whether that is down to us not being in crisis like Hearts were when FOH was launched or our fanbase isn't as extensive or as well off as those in the north-east that support Aberdeen or that neither of those clubs have a noisy portion of their own supporters railing against them and calling them rip-offs and Ponzi schemes to anyone that will listen there is only so much marketing that can help with that.

It's nothing to do with crisis or circumstance as most often cited.

Our rivals schemes make money while Hibbies make excuses for why we can't make money.

It's about ambition, pure and simple.

BlackSheep
14-01-2019, 01:21 PM
At some point we're just going to have to accept that Hibs fans aren't as willing or able to contribute towards a scheme like this over and above the normal costs of supporting the team. I don't believe that there can be a majority of our support that are unaware of HSL at this stage.

Whether that is down to us not being in crisis like Hearts were when FOH was launched or our fanbase isn't as extensive or as well off as those in the north-east that support Aberdeen or that neither of those clubs have a noisy portion of their own supporters railing against them and calling them rip-offs and Ponzi schemes to anyone that will listen there is only so much marketing that can help with that.

We could really do without these 'supporters'.

WhileTheChief..
14-01-2019, 01:24 PM
Eh? We could do without the 10,000+ supporters who regularly pay to watch us?

Well then the few of you that do donate are gonna have to stump up a hell of lot more once you lose out on those millions!

Dalianwanda
14-01-2019, 01:29 PM
Eh? We could do without the 10,000+ supporters who regularly pay to watch us?

Well then the few of you that do donate are gonna have to stump up a hell of lot more once you lose out on those millions!

No one said anything like that :confused:

CMac1988
14-01-2019, 01:32 PM
It can be argued that their members get benefits HSL members don't, but HSL members become part of an organisation which will eventually have a big voice in the Easter Road boardroom as a major shareholder in the club … that's far more valuable than a free strip and 10% off a pie and Bovril I would suggest...

This here plays a big part in it. I genuinely think most aren't interested in being part of a separate entity with controlling shares in the club. These same people may be willing to contribute just as much towards the club but for something else in return. Incentives such as a free home top, various discounts and other benefits such as a Hibs TV subscription etc. would certainly be enticing for me. If Hibs offered a subscription/membership scheme in the same vein as AberDNA I'd for one would join it.

Speedway
14-01-2019, 01:38 PM
This here plays a big part in it. I genuinely think most aren't interested in being part of a separate entity with controlling shares in the club. These same people may be willing to contribute just as much towards the club but for something else in return. Incentives such as a free home top, various discounts and other benefits such as a Hibs TV subscription etc. would certainly be enticing for me. If Hibs offered a subscription/membership scheme in the same vein as AberDNA I'd for one would join it.

But with respect CMac, while you for one would join it, we need something that thousands will join independently of their ST spend. Folk commit verbally all the time but don't put their money where their mouth is when it matters.

Are you representative of what others would buy?

I'd suggest that we don't know the answer to that one.

WhileTheChief..
14-01-2019, 01:40 PM
No one said anything like that :confused:

Erm the post above mine that I was responding to said exactly that!

Why you confused?

hibbydad
14-01-2019, 01:40 PM
Well said speedway you are right but they are first to moan about the lack of signings

The_Horde
14-01-2019, 01:42 PM
We shouldn't make comparisons with Foundation of Hearts for all of the valid reasons already discussed ad nauseum on here. But we can more realistically compare ourselves to AberDNA and in all honesty it doesn't make for good reading.

This is a club with a fanbase roughly the same size as ours, though they probably have more casual supporters having gathered themselves a number of glory hunters during the 80s. But irrespective of that the number of members their scheme has gathered over a far shorter period of time than HSL is highly impressive. It can be argued that their members get benefits HSL members don't, but HSL members become part of an organisation which will eventually have a big voice in the Easter Road boardroom as a major shareholder in the club … that's far more valuable than a free strip and 10% off a pie and Bovril I would suggest.

Questions have to be asked along the lines of why AberDNA has three times the number of contributors HSL has. Freebies aside, what are they doing that HSL isn't? I firmly don't believe that Aberdeen have more loyal fans than Hibs, in fact when they are doing badly their crowds plummet just as quickly as anybody else's, so it isn't that.

It seems to me that we need to ramp up awareness of HSL, what it is and what it will become ( IE a donation group for folk who care about this club once the shares run out ) because so far it is abundantly clear that whatever HSL have done and are doing hasn't worked anything like he way they would have hoped and any reasons given for that are going to look pretty weak when you look at what Aberdeen have managed to do.

Here's three questions and I would be interested to hear the answers …. I made these 3 points month ago and have still to see any evidence that HSL, or other interested parties, have paid any attention.

1) …… The top deck of the south stand is empty at 80% of our home games, why does HSL not have a massive banner on that deck advertising itself to the between 13 and 15 thousand Hibs fans in the ground who would be able to see it …. at least 10,000 or more of whom wont be HSL members?

2) ….. Is there an advert for HSL in the club programme for each home game? … And I mean a full page advert on the page facing the managers notes, not quarter of a page buried amongst a load of other ads for joiners and funeral homes?

3) ….. Why isn't there a 'sticky' at the top of this forum which will allow folk to read about HSL with links to its website? ….. Jambos Kickback has had a sticky like that for FOH at the top of its main forum for the last 5 years.

Has Nae Nookie ever written a short post?

Part of the reason HSL doesn't get the attention it should is probably because of the group of hibs fans who called (and still call) it a Ponzi scheme.

Whether it's true or not I don't know, but it definitely has had an effect. A lot of folk will have cancelled when the loyalty points system was canned as well.

stantonhibby
14-01-2019, 01:43 PM
Erm the post above mine that I was responding to said exactly that!

Why you confused?

No it didn't..... the post said we could do without the supporters who think HSL is some sort of Ponzi scheme. I think that's a small minority as opposed to 10k+ which you claim.

hibbydad
14-01-2019, 01:45 PM
I can assure you it is nowhere near a ponzi scheme as someone who worked in financial markets I KNOW. tHESE PEOPLE ARE ONLY DOING OUR CLUB HARM

MyJo
14-01-2019, 01:50 PM
Erm the post above mine that I was responding to said exactly that!

Why you confused?

It was only referring to the supporters who are calling HSL a Ponzi scheme. He had highlighted that part of my post when quoting it.

hibbymac
14-01-2019, 01:50 PM
I can assure you it is nowhere near a ponzi scheme as someone who worked in financial markets I KNOW. tHESE PEOPLE ARE ONLY DOING OUR CLUB HARM

:confused: What people?

Edit, sorry Which people? :aok:

hibbydad
14-01-2019, 01:54 PM
hIBBYMAC YOU AND i BOTH KNOW WHO WE ARE TALKING ABOUT. THOSE WHO CALL IT A PONZI SCHEME WHICH IT IS NOT

banchoryhibs
14-01-2019, 01:55 PM
Has Nae Nookie ever written a short post?

Part of the reason HSL doesn't get the attention it should is probably because of the group of hibs fans who called (and still call) it a Ponzi scheme.

Whether it's true or not I don't know, but it definitely has had an effect. A lot of folk will have cancelled when the loyalty points system was canned as well.

HSL is absolutely NOT a ponzi scheme - not in any way shape or form. Nobody apart from the club benefits. The HSL accounts clearly confirm this.

I was at the recent HSL AGM where the commitment was given to continue with the effort to raise money to buy shares in the club with the first target being a 20% shareholding then on to a 26% shareholding. HSL is not going away.

I'd like the "ponzi advocates" to explain how they arrive at their view and we can discuss this on a separate thread, this will hopefully put the argument to bed once and for all.

Once that's achieved we could work together to close the gap on both FoH and AberDNA.

cabbageandribs1875
14-01-2019, 02:01 PM
hit the caps button




:)

hibbydad
14-01-2019, 02:02 PM
Well said Banchory Hibs

WhileTheChief..
14-01-2019, 02:06 PM
It was only referring to the supporters who are calling HSL a Ponzi scheme. He had highlighted that part of my post when quoting it.

Cool. On the phone so didn’t see that. Apologies.

Keith_M
14-01-2019, 02:10 PM
..Freebies aside, what are they doing that HSL isn't? ....


Not meaning to be argumentative, NN, but I don't think people should underestimate the extra selling power that might give.


Not everybody will happily give money over without any apparent return, but some of those people might be persuaded with incentives on offer, such as Season Tickets or Club Shop discounts.

I'm not being judgemental of anyone that was influenced in that way, and wouldn't mind if Hibs came up with a similar scheme.

Hibs4185
14-01-2019, 02:11 PM
I’ve mentioned this before but as it is nearly time for season ticket renewals, why don’t the club allow HSL to be included in the literature? If there is 14,000 season tickets renewals and the literature has a tick box or direct debit mandate for HSL, a lot of people will sign up. Even if 25% of season tickets sign up that’s 3500 people.

Easy and cheap option of reaching a lot of people and people are far likely to join if the option is there in front of them.

Keith_M
14-01-2019, 02:16 PM
I’ve mentioned this before but as it is nearly time for season ticket renewals, why don’t the club allow HSL to be included in the literature? If there is 14,000 season tickets renewals and the literature has a tick box or direct debit mandate for HSL, a lot of people will sign up. Even if 25% of season tickets sign up that’s 3500 people.

Easy and cheap option of reaching a lot of people and people are far likely to join if the option is there in front of them.


I might be wrong on this, as I'm not an accountant, but because of fairly recent legislation on the purchasing of shares, I don't think it's that simple.

IIRC, you have to show that you've had legal advice before the purchase can go ahead.






EDIT: If I'm wrong, as I often am, it's actually a great idea :greengrin

Michael
14-01-2019, 02:20 PM
I might be wrong on this, as I'm not an accountant, but because of fairly recent legislation on the purchasing of shares, I don't think it's that simple.

IIRC, you have to show that you've had legal advice before the purchase can go ahead.






EDIT: If I'm wrong, as I often am, it's actually a great idea :greengrin

HSL isn't share purchase. It's donation to HSL to buy shares.

JimBHibees
14-01-2019, 02:20 PM
With season ticket renewals coming up int eh next couple of months would there be any possibility of an option to start up HSL donations on the same payment page as the season tickets? Something which could be added similar to gift aid type donations you sometimes get.

Diclonius
14-01-2019, 02:24 PM
Don't know whether it's lack of sustained success over the years, no trust in the leadership of the club or a more apathetic supporter base in general, but our fans simply do not back the club to the level of Aberdeen and Hearts and the club make comparatively poorer efforts to get them to invest.

It takes a minor miracle (ala the Scottish Cup) to bring our attendances in line with the other two, and they plummet after one bad season. We also don't invest the same amount in supporter schemes as they do, and for whatever reason we have similarly failed to get large donations from wealthy supporters. I'm of the mind that we're conditioned to expect things to go south fairly quickly after a relatively successful season, and for that reason we're hesitant to back the club beyond our ST (if even that).

Unfortunately I think we'll have to have an exceptional, sustained period of success against the tide of superior finances from our rivals to remove this apathy from the support, and I'm not talking a cup win, one good season in the top flight and a wee run against the Hertz. 4-5 seasons minimum of top 6 and challenging for Europe (qualifying in at least 3), another cup win and lasting periods of dominance against Hearts/Aberdeen INCLUDING wins more than once in a blue moon at ****in' Tynecastle and ****in' Pittodrie. They've done it to us, so we can do it to them. Success breeds confidence.

CMac1988
14-01-2019, 02:41 PM
But with respect CMac, while you for one would join it, we need something that thousands will join independently of their ST spend. Folk commit verbally all the time but don't put their money where their mouth is when it matters.

Are you representative of what others would buy?

I'd suggest that we don't know the answer to that one.

Of course and that's fair. It poses the question though if HSL is slowly but surely exchanging cash for shares then it's serving its purpose, what more do we want from HSL? If it's more money for the playing budget then there needs to be more incentive than some shares in commercial entity that's ultimately not run by the club. It seems, again speculation time, that people aren't interested in shares or at least there's no real urgent need for fan ownership. HSL is a tough sell and it doesn't exactly have great image due to what can only be described as a smear campaign early doors coupled with poor communication. The club itself is somewhat to blame as it doesn't appear to be that concerned in selling HSL beyond a token mention here and there.

We continue to compare it to schemes from other clubs but the circumstances and main goal surrounding each vary. It seems we're all looking for something different from HSL or at least are looking as to how much money it provides to the club. This was a secondary aim behind the main goal of fan ownership and the only way it will ever come close to competing with other schemes is with a rethink and rebrand. So again the question is that we want that?

I'd like to add that I hope I don't disrespect anyone in anyway who's responsible in the running of HSL. Thankless task. :)

Dalianwanda
14-01-2019, 02:52 PM
Erm the post above mine that I was responding to said exactly that!

Why you confused?

Im really not...I read the post :wink:

No harm :aok:

SingaporeHibs
14-01-2019, 03:37 PM
I’m not entirely sure the general support buy into the purpose of HSL. I know about FoH and I’m relaxed and understand their panic to join in numbers. I’ve no idea of the objective of AberDNA, is it about raising extra funds or are they trying to buy the club?
I obviously understand HSL but don’t believe in the purpose of it. I don’t think i’m alone.
I would be far more inclined to pay something if it was solely just a donation. The likelyhood of donating might increase if I could pick up some freebie (as per AberDNA chat above) as part of the scheme.
HSL- giving ‘supporters’ power on the board. This is where I get totally lost. Who is to say I agree with the HSL’s board opinion on Hibs short term decisions any more or any less than I agree with the current board? Why would I want to fund someone unknown to me into a position of power?
Do I have any more access or power over HSL’s board of choices than i do over the current board. No chance. Anyone able to prove me wrong here please do so.
We’ve had the experience of fans on the board now for a few years and it doesn’t really work anymore than if Hibs has sent a couple of the other members onto chat rooms or BTG pre-match for a chat. I’ve nothing against Tracey/Frank, I first met Frank 25 years ago and he does a great job as a Hibs fan but does having either of them on the board make any real difference for my voice?

Why would I give my money to effectively fund a group made up of celebrities, Politicians etc etc, my point is I don’t know them or their capabilities to run the club well. Why would I possibly believe they are any more capable than the current board?

Recently there was a thread about a finding a rich investor and the benefits it could bring. Unlikely with a fan ownership scheme. Calls about Petrie/Farmers lack of investment. Where do people think extra funds will come from when we own the club? What happens when a major cost comes along?

Juniper Greens
14-01-2019, 03:43 PM
Perhaps a certain retired tennis star might want to take over. I would be all for that

hibbymac
14-01-2019, 03:55 PM
hIBBYMAC YOU AND i BOTH KNOW WHO WE ARE TALKING ABOUT. THOSE WHO CALL IT A PONZI SCHEME WHICH IT IS NOT

If I knew who YOU were talking about, I wouldn't have ****** asked :rolleyes:

hibbydad
14-01-2019, 04:33 PM
All I will say to you Singapore Hibs is don't complain when there is a lack of funds to make new signings HSL is as much about creating working capital as share ownership and every business needs working capital

Lix
14-01-2019, 04:33 PM
what success have Hertz and Dons had over us in last few years?.... I cant see much difference if you ask me. Aberdeen have proved with their big spending that its produced nowt apart from a 2nd place or three.

maybe we just accept where we are as a club and spend what we have....unless a very rich sugar daddy/mummy comes along of course.

only thing I want to improve on is targeting young players from lower league clubs and buying them quick as possible.

peace

Mr Lix

Lix
14-01-2019, 04:40 PM
also, the easiest way to increase funds is by increasing the ST cost. I'd put cost up to £450 for an adult.

peace

Mr Lix

hibbydad
14-01-2019, 04:46 PM
People will moan about that as well Lix

Mibbes Aye
14-01-2019, 04:53 PM
what success have Hertz and Dons had over us in last few years?.... I cant see much difference if you ask me. Aberdeen have proved with their big spending that its produced nowt apart from a 2nd place or three.

maybe we just accept where we are as a club and spend what we have....unless a very rich sugar daddy/mummy comes along of course.

only thing I want to improve on is targeting young players from lower league clubs and buying them quick as possible.

peace

Mr Lix


also, the easiest way to increase funds is by increasing the ST cost. I'd put cost up to £450 for an adult.

peace

Mr Lix

Hard to argue with either of those posts.

I like the fact we spend within our means and are honest.

A sugar daddy should only be relied upon to provide capital and one-off costs as a general rule.

I pay for four STs. I wouldn't notice a small increase in pricing and I suspect that's true of a lot of ST holders. We pay a whack but we know why, and what we get for it.

southern hibby
14-01-2019, 05:02 PM
I’ve spoke to fans who sit next to us in the East and asked if they pay into HSL. A few have/do and most don’t and each one has their reasons but there seems to be an issue by some that the money will be used for infa structure rather than the playing side of things. Also a few won’t pay into it as long as RP has anything to do with Hibs.

I have mentioned that all money raised goes to the playing side of things to get the answers thrown back at me.

If we raise £500,000 through HSL towards wages then that means £500,000 raised through season tickets can be used to pay for indoor plastic pitches that we probably don’t need. Also had it pays towards the ticket office every year and a few other things thrown in too.

Now as I said I pay into it but maybe it would be worth HSL / Hibs addressing concerns folk have about what their money is being spent on and maybe more would join if these concerns are addressed.

GGTTH

Lix
14-01-2019, 05:03 PM
Hard to argue with either of those posts.

I like the fact we spend within our means and are honest.

A sugar daddy should only be relied upon to provide capital and one-off costs as a general rule.

I pay for four STs. I wouldn't notice a small increase in pricing and I suspect that's true of a lot of ST holders. We pay a whack but we know why, and what we get for it.

thanks.

I also like the fact that we live within our means, it makes us honest.

do we pay a whack though? Without trolling hearts website for ST prices, the only difference i can see is that they price differently from us.... ie.. more central a seat position the more it costs.
I would hazard a guess and say they raise same as us if not more than us via ST cost.

we as a club as a whole aren't doing much wrong imo.

peace

Mr Lix

Lix
14-01-2019, 05:06 PM
ps, wife and I are both HSL contributers. We like the model. It is certainly not a ponzi scheme!!

Golden Bear
14-01-2019, 05:40 PM
This here plays a big part in it. I genuinely think most aren't interested in being part of a separate entity with controlling shares in the club. These same people may be willing to contribute just as much towards the club but for something else in return. Incentives such as a free home top, various discounts and other benefits such as a Hibs TV subscription etc. would certainly be enticing for me. If Hibs offered a subscription/membership scheme in the same vein as AberDNA I'd for one would join it.


I'm exactly the same C.

Divorce the issue of fan ownership under HSL and adopt a scheme similar to AberDNA, I'm sure this will be an attraction to many and will increase the revenue to our football Club.

Mibbes Aye
14-01-2019, 05:49 PM
thanks.

I also like the fact that we live within our means, it makes us honest.

do we pay a whack though? Without trolling hearts website for ST prices, the only difference i can see is that they price differently from us.... ie.. more central a seat position the more it costs.
I would hazard a guess and say they raise same as us if not more than us via ST cost.

we as a club as a whole aren't doing much wrong imo.

peace

Mr Lix

When I say we pay a whack I'm not suggesting the club are exploiting us. I think it is a decent outlay for STs but as I said, I would probably be happy to pay a bit more. The suggestion of it wouldn't put me off renewing.

Complete agreement, as a club we aren't doing much wrong.

hibbydad
14-01-2019, 06:14 PM
Southern Hibby I agree with you but no matter what the club or HSL say they will continue to come up with these lame excuses sometimes I really wonder how much some people want a successful team

matty_f
14-01-2019, 06:35 PM
I’m not entirely sure the general support buy into the purpose of HSL. I know about FoH and I’m relaxed and understand their panic to join in numbers. I’ve no idea of the objective of AberDNA, is it about raising extra funds or are they trying to buy the club?
I obviously understand HSL but don’t believe in the purpose of it. I don’t think i’m alone.
I would be far more inclined to pay something if it was solely just a donation. The likelyhood of donating might increase if I could pick up some freebie (as per AberDNA chat above) as part of the scheme.
HSL- giving ‘supporters’ power on the board. This is where I get totally lost. Who is to say I agree with the HSL’s board opinion on Hibs short term decisions any more or any less than I agree with the current board? Why would I want to fund someone unknown to me into a position of power?
Do I have any more access or power over HSL’s board of choices than i do over the current board. No chance. Anyone able to prove me wrong here please do so.
We’ve had the experience of fans on the board now for a few years and it doesn’t really work anymore than if Hibs has sent a couple of the other members onto chat rooms or BTG pre-match for a chat. I’ve nothing against Tracey/Frank, I first met Frank 25 years ago and he does a great job as a Hibs fan but does having either of them on the board make any real difference for my voice?

Why would I give my money to effectively fund a group made up of celebrities, Politicians etc etc, my point is I don’t know them or their capabilities to run the club well. Why would I possibly believe they are any more capable than the current board?

Recently there was a thread about a finding a rich investor and the benefits it could bring. Unlikely with a fan ownership scheme. Calls about Petrie/Farmers lack of investment. Where do people think extra funds will come from when we own the club? What happens when a major cost comes along?

HSL is a membership, once you've paid enough you are a member and you have a vote like all the other members, that vote means you can oppose a certain person from being on the board - you might not get your way but you'll have the same voice as every other member, regardless of how much they've put in.

The club is run on a self-sustaining basis, so if a cost came in then the money would need to be found from income, it wouldn't fall on the support or HSL to find the money in the same way that STF doesn't do his hand in his pocket when the pitch needs re-laid or a stand built.

Speedway
14-01-2019, 07:19 PM
Some very fair and valid points now being aired.

I suspect that those noticing the club’s rising cash balance will also question the necessity of their £20 a month.

I think most of us look to argue the toss rather than just ‘going with it’

We’ve been burnt before, I get it, but who hasn’t.

And yes, I contribute multiple DDs to HSL despite my views on our chairman.

superfurryhibby
14-01-2019, 07:35 PM
£700k is certainly not the net figure. AberDNA is a membership scheme which offers a large range of discounts and offers - the true net value to the club will depend on the take up of these.

Their marketing is good though, whereas HSL often feels like something separate to the club. As LD pushed for this scheme I think she needs to do some work to make it feel like a core effort.

So, 47 posts further on from this, does anyone actually know the net worth of AberDNA to their club?

When considering money raised by your ordinary fan, does our 3000 extra season ticket sales count when talking about doing your bit for the club?

I also see that the sheep cheapest season tickets are c £35.00 than ours, although not sure how many of these are actually sold, but multiply that by a few thousand and it’s a fair bit.

Finally, it’s worth noting this, maybe our wealthy business fans need to step up to the platter a bit more!

https://www.afc.co.uk/2018/09/11/afcs-community-sports-hub-and-training-facilities-secures-1m-of-new-investment/

LeithMike
14-01-2019, 07:45 PM
Things that might help contributions to HSL?

1. Annual membership rather than life membership. Possibly missed the boat but making it an annual contribution/subscription to remain a member may help sustain contributions over the long-term.

2. Looking at inducements/benefits that AberDNA offers and running something similar? A subscription/contribution where there are some tangible benefits rather than simply a donation may encourage more contributors
It's clearly working up north. If HSL could get 6,000 or so annual paying members then it would give it a very healthy negotiating position with the club regarding benefits.

3. Change of name. The use of limited makes HSL a bit abstract for me. Association, Alliance or the like may be a better indication of identity and more attractive to supporters.

4. Joining with the club so that payment of a season ticket in instalments would include an option to pay monthly HSL membership fee and donations to other initiatives - kicks for kids, youth development, other charitable purposes, etc.

5. Getting that seat on the board. With the high level of criticism of the supporters reps, it would be good to get a representative of HSL on the board and see if it can take up the mantle of supporter representation*.

* difficult to see how this is done when you see a lot of infighting on these boards.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

brog
14-01-2019, 07:50 PM
I’m not entirely sure the general support buy into the purpose of HSL. I know about FoH and I’m relaxed and understand their panic to join in numbers. I’ve no idea of the objective of AberDNA, is it about raising extra funds or are they trying to buy the club?
I obviously understand HSL but don’t believe in the purpose of it. I don’t think i’m alone.
I would be far more inclined to pay something if it was solely just a donation. The likelyhood of donating might increase if I could pick up some freebie (as per AberDNA chat above) as part of the scheme.
HSL- giving ‘supporters’ power on the board. This is where I get totally lost. Who is to say I agree with the HSL’s board opinion on Hibs short term decisions any more or any less than I agree with the current board? Why would I want to fund someone unknown to me into a position of power?
Do I have any more access or power over HSL’s board of choices than i do over the current board. No chance. Anyone able to prove me wrong here please do so.
We’ve had the experience of fans on the board now for a few years and it doesn’t really work anymore than if Hibs has sent a couple of the other members onto chat rooms or BTG pre-match for a chat. I’ve nothing against Tracey/Frank, I first met Frank 25 years ago and he does a great job as a Hibs fan but does having either of them on the board make any real difference for my voice?

Why would I give my money to effectively fund a group made up of celebrities, Politicians etc etc, my point is I don’t know them or their capabilities to run the club well. Why would I possibly believe they are any more capable than the current board?

Recently there was a thread about a finding a rich investor and the benefits it could bring. Unlikely with a fan ownership scheme. Calls about Petrie/Farmers lack of investment. Where do people think extra funds will come from when we own the club? What happens when a major cost comes along?

I've had conversations with several folk who hold similar views to yourself & I must confess I find those views baffling & frustrating. You say you don't believe in the purpose of HSL , fine that's your prerogative. I have no overwhelming desire for fan ownership but I donate to HSL to help our club. You continually assert that nothing will change & that no one can prove you wrong. By that logic similarly no one can say HSL will have a negative effect on our club. You also state you would be more inclined to just make a donation. Why not do that then? Set up a DD to pay Hibs directly, I'm sure they'll be delighted to accept your money.

banchoryhibs
14-01-2019, 08:32 PM
Things that might help contributions to HSL?

1. Annual membership rather than life membership. Possibly missed the boat but making it an annual contribution/subscription to remain a member may help sustain contributions over the long-term.

2. Looking at inducements/benefits that AberDNA offers and running something similar? A subscription/contribution where there are some tangible benefits rather than simply a donation may encourage more contributors
It's clearly working up north. If HSL could get 6,000 or so annual paying members then it would give it a very healthy negotiating position with the club regarding benefits.

3. Change of name. The use of limited makes HSL a bit abstract for me. Association, Alliance or the like may be a better indication of identity and more attractive to supporters.

4. Joining with the club so that payment of a season ticket in instalments would include an option to pay monthly HSL membership fee and donations to other initiatives - kicks for kids, youth development, other charitable purposes, etc.

5. Getting that seat on the board. With the high level of criticism of the supporters reps, it would be good to get a representative of HSL on the board and see if it can take up the mantle of supporter representation*.

* difficult to see how this is done when you see a lot of infighting on these boards.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

What a positive post! The HSL directors are looking at ways to increase membership and donations - some of your ideas may indeed work.

The HSL Q&A page says that by donating to HSL, "Subject to meeting Member eligibility criteria, you will acquire legal ownership status in HSL which has legal ownership of shares in HFC. You will receive a Membership Certificate to demonstrate proof of ownership." This means that once you've donated the required amount you are a member and this can't be taken away from you so it's not possible to run an annual membership scheme - I guess that some other scheme could be introduced to make this possible?

Once HSL acquires 20% of Hibs shares - it currently has 17.5% - it is legally entitled to place a director on the club board. This is in addition to the 2 Fans Rep directors. It's not far to go now!

My view is that we need to raise a very positive HSL profile amongst the fans to try to increase the number currently subscribing. This thread certainly helps and if there are ways of making the donations even more attractive that's got to be good.

RoYO!
14-01-2019, 09:32 PM
But with respect CMac, while you for one would join it, we need something that thousands will join independently of their ST spend. Folk commit verbally all the time but don't put their money where their mouth is when it matters.

Are you representative of what others would buy?

I'd suggest that we don't know the answer to that one.

Yep, I’m with CMac on this one.

pacoluna
14-01-2019, 10:36 PM
How much of that total sum along with hearts has been raised through rich "anonymous" benefactors.

NAE NOOKIE
15-01-2019, 12:01 AM
Has Nae Nookie ever written a short post?

Part of the reason HSL doesn't get the attention it should is probably because of the group of hibs fans who called (and still call) it a Ponzi scheme.

Whether it's true or not I don't know, but it definitely has had an effect. A lot of folk will have cancelled when the loyalty points system was canned as well.

No

NAE NOOKIE
15-01-2019, 12:02 AM
No

Yes :greengrin

1875STEVE
15-01-2019, 12:19 AM
At some point we're just going to have to accept that Hibs fans aren't as willing or able to contribute towards a scheme like this over and above the normal costs of supporting the team. I don't believe that there can be a majority of our support that are unaware of HSL at this stage.

Whether that is down to us not being in crisis like Hearts were when FOH was launched or our fanbase isn't as extensive or as well off as those in the north-east that support Aberdeen or that neither of those clubs have a noisy portion of their own supporters railing against them and calling them rip-offs and Ponzi schemes to anyone that will listen there is only so much marketing that can help with that.

I had the very argument with the very person who claims it's a ponzi scheme on twitter the other day.

It was like talking to a brick wall, twisting my words.

Claiming Farmer is a billionaire etc, it's scary folk believe him.

He has an agenda against sir tom and im not sure why.

SingaporeHibs
15-01-2019, 02:23 AM
All I will say to you Singapore Hibs is don't complain when there is a lack of funds to make new signings HSL is as much about creating working capital as share ownership and every business needs working capital
Its the vehicle being used to raise the funds that I haven't bought into yet. I've yet to be convinced that fan ownership is the way forward. However, I'm completely on board with the requirement to raise further working capital. Maybe AberDNA is an example of a simple scheme to do this without confusing it with other motives.

James Stephen
15-01-2019, 08:16 AM
Its the vehicle being used to raise the funds that I haven't bought into yet. I've yet to be convinced that fan ownership is the way forward. However, I'm completely on board with the requirement to raise further working capital. Maybe AberDNA is an example of a simple scheme to do this without confusing it with other motives.

Maybe once it reaches a certain threshold, HSL should stop buying shares in the short term at least, and instead become a funding vehicle.

They could always then review what areas of the club that they put our money into perodically.

Personally, i dont want us spending money on an indoor rraining pitch, that money should be spent on the team.

Imagine if we fans were able to donate circa 500k a year to the team, with another additional 500k in revune in a few years once the debt repayments are complete, that would make quite a difference to the team, all recurring cash.

No more infrastructure for the time being, i want to see the dividend on the pitch from the years of rubbish we all had to endure during the Petrie years.

Juniper Greens
15-01-2019, 08:20 AM
Maybe once it reaches a certain threshold, HSL should stop buying shares in the short term at least, and instead become a funding vehicle.

They could always then review what areas of the club that they put our money into perodically.

Personally, i dont want us spending money on an indoor rraining pitch, that money should be spent on the team.

Imagine if we fans were able to donate circa 500k a year to the team, with another additional 500k in revune in a few years once the debt repayments are complete, that would make quite a difference to the team, all recurring cash.

No more infrastructure for the time being, i want to see the dividend on the pitch from the years of rubbish we all had to endure during the Petrie years.

I think the pitch was part of the bid for being selected in project Brave, so we are required to build it?

Certainly that was the chat on here a few months back, however there was also chat that it isn't full size, so I don't quite see the logic behind that

Antifa Hibs
15-01-2019, 11:13 AM
superfurryhibby wrote...

So, 47 posts further on from this, does anyone actually know the net worth of AberDNA to their club?

When considering money raised by your ordinary fan, does our 3000 extra season ticket sales count when talking about doing your bit for the club?

I also see that the sheep cheapest season tickets are c £35.00 than ours, although not sure how many of these are actually sold, but multiply that by a few thousand and it’s a fair bit.

Finally, it’s worth noting this, maybe our wealthy business fans need to step up to the platter a bit more!

They have 6300 members.

They gave away 4800 shirts so this suggests they have 4800 members paying £18 a month as its only that bracket thats entitled to the replica jersey. That leaves 1500 members either paying £12 a month for standard adult or £8 a month if a child, lets say an average of a £10 a month for those 1500.

4800 * £18 = £86400
1500 * 10 = £1500

Combined monthly they're taking in £101400 give or take. Was launched in March I believe so March 31st to Dec 31st is 9 months. 9 * £912600. Aberdeen state all profits goto the footballing operation only and said aberdna is currently worth £700,000. Make of that what you will... (I could well be talking utter ***** which wouldn't be the first time).

Could an independant HSL and official AberDNA type membership go hand in hand for Hibs?

CMac1988
15-01-2019, 11:26 AM
They have 6300 members.

They gave away 4800 shirts so this suggests they have 4800 members paying £18 a month as its only that bracket thats entitled to the replica jersey. That leaves 1500 members either paying £12 a month for standard adult or £8 a month if a child, lets say an average of a £10 a month for those 1500.

4800 * £18 = £86400
1500 * 10 = £1500

Combined monthly they're taking in £101400 give or take. Was launched in March I believe so March 31st to Dec 31st is 9 months. 9 * £912600. Aberdeen state all profits goto the footballing operation only and said aberdna is currently worth £700,000. Make of that what you will... (I could well be talking utter ***** which wouldn't be the first time).

Could an independant HSL and official AberDNA type membership go hand in hand for Hibs?

Mentioned already is it feasible to run two schemes side by side? HSL with it's aim to provide working capital to the club in exchange for shares and another scheme run by the club itself in a similar vein to AberDNA. I guess they could eat into each others potential target demographic but I feel we're missing the boat here.

Rebrand HSL and bring it closer to the club. Offer a few different membership schemes with one offering shares in HSL, another offering discounts and other incentives, and lastly one offering just a donation. Failing that let HSL run it's course then have the club start it's own Membership scheme. There's a lot that can be done here to bring in additional income to the club.

Phil MaGlass
16-01-2019, 09:07 AM
My tuppence worth. Many fans are not interested in fan ownership and would rather see something similar to AberDNA, IMO, fans would be more willing to give per month if they were to get something back, like a shirt or discount at the shop, not only are you donating but you feel like the club is appreciating you, I also believe the name HSL is putting folk off, not very imaginative and also remember the last time we put our hands in our pockets for Hibs shares during the Duff and Gray era. Fans have long memories. I myself am not interested on getting a fan on the board as it doesnt work we have Tracey and Frank as reps and we all saw what happened during the huns debacle.
Rebrand HSL.

bigwheel
16-01-2019, 09:12 AM
My tuppence worth. Many fans are not interested in fan ownership and would rather see something similar to AberDNA, IMO, fans would be more willing to give per month if they were to get something back, like a shirt or discount at the shop, not only are you donating but you feel like the club is appreciating you, I also believe the name HSL is putting folk off, not very imaginative and also remember the last time we put our hands in our pockets for Hibs shares during the Duff and Gray era. Fans have long memories. I myself am not interested on getting a fan on the board as it doesnt work we have Tracey and Frank as reps and we all saw what happened during the huns debacle.
Rebrand HSL.


Perhaps we could have both schemes? Those who wish to support HSL and those who wish to give month to the club without an interest in ownership.

NAE NOOKIE
17-01-2019, 12:10 PM
Perhaps we could have both schemes? Those who wish to support HSL and those who wish to give month to the club without an interest in ownership.

I have my wee bundle of private shares so I can say I'm a part owner of Hibs :greengrin I also contribute to HSL but I'm not bothered about the shares side of it, its purely a way to give something to the club and I would quite happily have joined HSL if it had purely been about that with no shares involved.

I think HSL probably has to be HSL ( at least the Ltd bit ) because of what the organisation is, IE set up to buy shares in Hibs. I'm not sure that an AberDNA style body run in conjunction with HSL wouldn't just muddy the waters and confuse things even further. It would probably work better if HSL put it out there that once the share buying side of it wasn't an issue they would re brand themselves to become a Hibs fans 'donation' organisation.

The thing is that so far as HSL and the share issue goes I'm not so sure that it will achieve the widespread fan ownership folk would have hoped for .. by the end of this I doubt that the fabled 51% will be in the hands of more than a few thousand supporters, which going forward doesn't fill me with much hope that the wider fanbase wont just look on HSL as another part of the club to endlessly criticise for the clubs failings, rather than recognising it as representing the wider fanbase on the board.

hibbydad
17-01-2019, 01:53 PM
Very well put Nae Nookie

bigwheel
17-01-2019, 01:55 PM
I have my wee bundle of private shares so I can say I'm a part owner of Hibs :greengrin I also contribute to HSL but I'm not bothered about the shares side of it, its purely a way to give something to the club and I would quite happily have joined HSL if it had purely been about that with no shares involved.

I think HSL probably has to be HSL ( at least the Ltd bit ) because of what the organisation is, IE set up to buy shares in Hibs. I'm not sure that an AberDNA style body run in conjunction with HSL wouldn't just muddy the waters and confuse things even further. It would probably work better if HSL put it out there that once the share buying side of it wasn't an issue they would re brand themselves to become a Hibs fans 'donation' organisation.

The thing is that so far as HSL and the share issue goes I'm not so sure that it will achieve the widespread fan ownership folk would have hoped for .. by the end of this I doubt that the fabled 51% will be in the hands of more than a few thousand supporters, which going forward doesn't fill me with much hope that the wider fanbase wont just look on HSL as another part of the club to endlessly criticise for the clubs failings, rather than recognising it as representing the wider fanbase on the board.

I’m exactly where you are. Contribute now..have a few shares ...would contribute whether it involved trying to buy equity in the club or not ...

hibbydad
17-01-2019, 02:36 PM
I agree bigwheel unfortunately too many are unwilling to contribute under any circumstances

Eyrie
17-01-2019, 08:19 PM
I agree bigwheel unfortunately too many are unwilling to contribute under any circumstances

But will then complain that we keep losing out to Aberdeen and Hearts for players because they can pay more.

Nobody is forced to contribute, and nobody should if they can't afford it. However those who can but choose not to have no grounds to be critical about the club's budget or ambition.

hibbydad
18-01-2019, 09:51 AM
You are so right Eyrie there must be a good number who can make at least a small contribution but don't

HibeeHibernian4
18-01-2019, 11:39 AM
A few Aberdeen fans I know think that AberDNA is a terrible scheme that gives off the impression that the deeper your pockets the more valued you are as a supporter. People can make donations and then jump to the front of their loyalty points scheme for away games, seemingly.

hibbydad
18-01-2019, 02:09 PM
Yes HFC 1875 but people could make a small donation to HSL for the cost of couple of pints a month

OfficialHSL
18-01-2019, 02:43 PM
Its the vehicle being used to raise the funds that I haven't bought into yet. I've yet to be convinced that fan ownership is the way forward. However, I'm completely on board with the requirement to raise further working capital. Maybe AberDNA is an example of a simple scheme to do this without confusing it with other motives.

SingaporeHibs

We have tried to stay out of this debate to allow fans to express their views without being pestered by us.

We often hear supporters say that they would donate to HSL but they are not keen on supporter ownership. Our view on this has been the same from day one. We of course respect everyones right to do what they want with their hard earned money but HSL is not about any group trying to aggressively seek control of the Club. Rest assured owning a football club in this League is not an asset, if we are truly honest, it's a burden. It is the Board that decided three years ago to help share that experience with the Fans. In other words, what we are trying to do is share that tough financial burden with all of us who can manage it rather than rely on the generosity/goodwill of one single wealthy principal shareholder. Why should he be left with that burden. Do we really think there are lots of filthy rich people waiting in the wings to throw money at Hibs ?

Can we also clarify that donations to HSL are not about providing normal working capital to the Club. Donations are targeted exclusively to the Football Dept. Not electricity, rates, mortgages etc.

We really do need supporters who are able to do so to join the existing group who are already donating. Hearts and Aberdeen fans are determined to see their Clubs ahead of us and are giving them extra money to help.

It's our call.

HSL