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Brightside
13-01-2019, 09:02 PM
Had the pleasure of watching Messi score his 400th league goal tonight. Astounding stuff. The best we will ever see.

Hibernia&Alba
13-01-2019, 09:04 PM
Had the pleasure of watching Messi score his 400th league goal tonight. Astounding stuff. The best we will ever see.

Never Hibs class, but no bad :wink:

WeeRussell
13-01-2019, 09:05 PM
The easiest post to agree with on here in a while :)

calumhibee1
13-01-2019, 09:09 PM
Had the pleasure of watching Messi score his 400th league goal tonight. Astounding stuff. The best we will ever see.

The best player in the history of the game.

007
13-01-2019, 09:14 PM
Well done to the Argentinian Gauld.

MWHIBBIES
13-01-2019, 09:22 PM
We'll see better, players are getting better, strong, fitter all the time. He's the best so far though.

Lancs Harp
13-01-2019, 09:28 PM
"Best player ever" is always a bit subjective but from my own pov the wee guy has brought me no end of entertainment. A truly great footballer and a joy to watch.

marinello59
13-01-2019, 09:28 PM
We'll see better, players are getting better, strong, fitter all the time. He's the best so far though.

Imagine Best playing on today’s pitches with the modern ball and the protection given by refs these days. He would have been even better. Would Messi have coped with conditions back then? George Best is still the greatest ever for me.

MWHIBBIES
13-01-2019, 09:41 PM
Imagine Best playing on today’s pitches with the modern ball and the protection given by refs these days. He would have been even better. Would Messi have coped with conditions back then? George Best is still the greatest ever for me.
No he wouldn't because he didn't take care of himself at all. His unprofessional attitude would end him these days.

Messi is far better than him by any metric as well.

SirDavidsNapper
13-01-2019, 09:45 PM
Had the pleasure of watching Messi score his 400th league goal tonight. Astounding stuff. The best we will ever see.

He's up there with Ronaldo 😉

Keyser Sauzee
13-01-2019, 09:45 PM
No he wouldn't because he didn't take care of himself at all. His unprofessional attitude would end him these days.

Messi is far better than him by any metric as well.

I agree. I think there is an argument to be made about different era’s but Best is a terrible example to use, he wouldn’t have made the top level in today’s game purely because he didn’t look after himself at all. Messi is the best we have seen and will take some doing to beat too.

Brightside
13-01-2019, 09:45 PM
Imagine Best playing on today’s pitches with the modern ball and the protection given by refs these days. He would have been even better. Would Messi have coped with conditions back then? George Best is still the greatest ever for me.

Best would have been too steaming. 400 goals!!! In a top league

FRes Hibbie
13-01-2019, 09:55 PM
Had the pleasure of watching Messi score his 400th league goal tonight. Astounding stuff. The best we will ever see.

Pain in the arse to be honest. I've got tickets to the league game next Sunday and was hoping he'd hold off till then.

GreenNWhiteArmy
13-01-2019, 09:56 PM
Greatest of his era without a doubt, it's not even close

Greatest ever? Impossible to tell imo

Time For Heroes
13-01-2019, 10:03 PM
I thought he was signing, needs a NHC
:greengrin

Haymaker
13-01-2019, 10:04 PM
I agree. I think there is an argument to be made about different era’s but Best is a terrible example to use, he wouldn’t have made the top level in today’s game purely because he didn’t look after himself at all. Messi is the best we have seen and will take some doing to beat too.

Messi wouldn't have been able to play in Bests era as he needed hormone treatment to even be where he is.

You can't compare players from different eras.

JimboHibs
13-01-2019, 11:05 PM
Both at their prime Maradona or Messi .. for me Maradona was the better player,dont see Messi being ever to have the same impact Diego did with Argentina and im.not talking about his cocaine usage in WC USA.

The 90+2
13-01-2019, 11:13 PM
Riordan has a better peg on him.

hibsbollah
13-01-2019, 11:14 PM
Imagine Best playing on today’s pitches with the modern ball and the protection given by refs these days. He would have been even better. Would Messi have coped with conditions back then? George Best is still the greatest ever for me.

Substitute Best for Maradona and that's equally valid. Maradona was kicked up and down by hairy ersed defenders on dodgy pitches all his career.

esjorto
13-01-2019, 11:17 PM
Messi wouldn't have been able to play in Bests era as he needed hormone treatment to even be where he is.

You can't compare players from different eras.

Exactly. Greatest player I ever saw was our own Gordon Smith. Most of you never saw him play therefore I cannot be wrong ,but neither can any of you! By the way, Smith Smith scored 364 for Hibs, a club record and British record for a winger.:greengrin

calumhibee1
13-01-2019, 11:30 PM
Substitute Best for Maradona and that's equally valid. Maradona was kicked up and down by hairy ersed defenders on dodgy pitches all his career.

While there is undoubtedly aspects of the game from yesteryear that we have no idea if Messi would be able to cope with we also need to remember that players nowadays are physically streets ahead of what they were in the 20th century. While there’s less of the ‘illegal’ tackles that Messi and Ronaldo have to put up with they’re playing up against guys with physical attributes that players from the 70s or whenever could only have dreamt of, whether that be speed, strength, power, jumping or stamina.

Bobo
13-01-2019, 11:50 PM
Messi is an undoubted talent and 400 goals is a fantastic achievement in modern day football.

However, he has achieved this by playing for Barca for 15 years, the only team he has ever played for, who have been a dominant force in Spain for decades and who have always boasted squads full of the world's greatest players... how would he have fared playing in lesser teams and how would players of the past have done in his situation?

Joe Baker, for example, scored 301 career goals, what might he have achieved if given the opportunity to play for 15 years in star stunned Barcelona squads?

Viva_Palmeiras
14-01-2019, 12:32 AM
Exactly. Greatest player I ever saw was our own Gordon Smith. Most of you never saw him play therefore I cannot be wrong ,but neither can any of you! By the way, Smith Smith scored 364 for Hibs, a club record and British record for a winger.:greengrin

The one player I’d like to go back in time to see play having read the excellent Prince of Wingers - a fantastic and poiniant account of a father by his son (still reckon it should have been Tony playing the piano on the Time for Heroes dvd)

Crunchie
14-01-2019, 12:37 AM
Had the pleasure of watching Messi score his 400th league goal tonight. Astounding stuff. The best we will ever see.

It's an impossibility to say what particular player was/is the greatest ever, there are numerous candidates. We can all have our favourites, mine would be Maradona.

yonder1875
14-01-2019, 12:38 AM
Messi is an undoubted talent and 400 goals is a fantastic achievement in modern day football.

However, he has achieved this by playing for Barca for 15 years, the only team he has ever played for, who have been a dominant force in Spain for decades and who have always boasted squads full of the world's greatest players... how would he have fared playing in lesser teams and how would players of the past have done in his situation?

Joe Baker, for example, scored 301 career goals, what might he have achieved if given the opportunity to play for 15 years in star stunned Barcelona squads?

Messi being described as a talent is the biggest understatement I’ve ever heard to describe his greatness.

Forza Fred
14-01-2019, 01:24 AM
Preferred Jimmy O’Rourke!

Shrekko
14-01-2019, 02:10 AM
Impossible to compare eras but don’t think anyone has been at the top for as long as Messi in their eras possibly apart from Pele and Christiano Ronaldo. He’s [Messi] the greatest ever IMO.

This stuff about World Cups is ridiculous and almost irrelevant -international football isn’t anywhere near as important now and it’s far harder for one guy (who’s played 70 games already) to dominate a tournament. Teams are too well organised.

Maradona was incredible- maybe for 4-5 years on a different planet to anyone else at the time. He’s in the argument but really can’t imagine that despite his talent we can put George Best in there too- he was just finished too early.

tonyrougier123
14-01-2019, 02:37 AM
For me ,I would have liked to see messi do the business for argentina before he goes down as a true great.ive never really seen him inspire his country when he plays,looks a bit stroppy in that format,I think of great players bringing the best out of ther team,messi doesny do that for the argies.great club player undoubtedly.but not all round.ronaldo beats him for me easily.

California-Hibs
14-01-2019, 03:31 AM
Had the pleasure of watching Messi score his 400th league goal tonight. Astounding stuff. The best we will ever see.

He's outstanding. But come on now, Ronaldos out in front as the best we will ever see.

CallumLaidlaw
14-01-2019, 07:13 AM
He's outstanding. But come on now, Ronaldos out in front as the best we will ever see.

Not even close J. Ronaldo while a better athlete is nowhere near the baller that Messi is. His ability to see a pass is just out of this world. Interestingly, when pro footballers are asked between the 2, most say Messi.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Killiehibbie
14-01-2019, 07:13 AM
Exactly. Greatest player I ever saw was our own Gordon Smith. Most of you never saw him play therefore I cannot be wrong ,but neither can any of you! By the way, Smith Smith scored 364 for Hibs, a club record and British record for a winger.:greengrin Maybe a few less than 364😉

blackpoolhibs
14-01-2019, 07:25 AM
You can say its Ronaldo or Messi, or even Best or Maradonna, but for me the player i think is the best player to watch in my opinion over the course of their careers has been Lionel Messi.

Scouse Hibee
14-01-2019, 07:55 AM
He’s not a better player than de Gea in goal.

MWHIBBIES
14-01-2019, 07:58 AM
He’s not a better player than Degea in goal.17 goals, 10 assists in 17 league games. I'm all for sticking up for guys in different positions but De Gea doesn't contribute that.

Scouse Hibee
14-01-2019, 08:03 AM
17 goals, 10 assists in 17 league games. I'm all for sticking up for guys in different positions but De Gea doesn't contribute that.

But he’s a better keeper than Messi. Folk tend to talk about the greatest ever players as always being attacking players.

calumhibee1
14-01-2019, 08:06 AM
But he’s a better keeper than Messi. Folk tend to talk about the greatest ever players as always being attacking players.

Scoring goals and creating chances is the hardest thing to do in football. The greatest ever chat probably is always unfairly weighted in favour of attackers but generally speaking they are usually the best players.

BILLYHIBS
14-01-2019, 08:08 AM
Exactly. Greatest player I ever saw was our own Gordon Smith. Most of you never saw him play therefore I cannot be wrong ,but neither can any of you! By the way, Smith Smith scored 364 for Hibs, a club record and British record for a winger.:greengrin

303 source Fitbastats

Wikidpedia 157 ?

Ask supporters of a certain generation their best ever player and it is always Gordon Smith regardless of allegiance

Keith_M
14-01-2019, 08:13 AM
303 source Fitbastats

Wiiedpedia 157 ?

Ask supporters of a certain generation their best ever player and it is always Gordon Smith regardless of allegiance


The one that played for Brighton?

BILLYHIBS
14-01-2019, 08:16 AM
The one that played for Brighton?

Naw the Gay Gordon The Prince of Wingers!

The real Gordon Smith would have scored that sitter in the FA Cup Final :greengrin

Keith_M
14-01-2019, 08:20 AM
Naw the Gay Gordon The Prince of Wingers!

The real Gordon Smith would have scored that sitter in the FA Cup Final :greengrin



My Granddad would have scored that goal, and he was in his 70s at the time.

:wink:

Killiehibbie
14-01-2019, 08:24 AM
303 source Fitbastats

Wikidpedia 157 ?

Ask supporters of a certain generation their best ever player and it is always Gordon Smith regardless of allegiancei think the 303 is competitive games. Maybe wiki is League goals. The 364 is all games friendlies, wartime, etc.

we are hibs
14-01-2019, 09:05 AM
Not only one of the greatest goalscorer ever but one of the best passers of a ball ever. Seen a clip on twitter last week of him reversing a through ball for Suarez that even scott allan wouldn't have seen coming.

I think he's the best ever and no one comes close.

hibsbollah
14-01-2019, 09:11 AM
17 goals, 10 assists in 17 league games. I'm all for sticking up for guys in different positions but De Gea doesn't contribute that.

Duncan Alexander from opta was talking about expected save percentages from last season. De gea was streets ahead of everyone else, and opta estimated that when his 'beyond expected' saves were taken into account, he was worth 17 EXTRA points to Utd last season. An incredible stat, and shows he's of a similar value as the very elite outfield players.

MWHIBBIES
14-01-2019, 09:13 AM
Duncan Alexander from opta was talking about expected save percentages from last season. De gea was streets ahead of everyone else, and opta estimated that when his 'beyond expected' saves were taken into account, he was worth 17 EXTRA points to Utd last season. An incredible stat, and shows he's of a similar value as the very elite outfield players.

He's brilliant but Messi is the best ever. Barcelona lost to Levante without him in midweek. He's worth more than 17 points.

hibsbollah
14-01-2019, 09:18 AM
He's brilliant but Messi is the best ever. Barcelona lost to Levante without him in midweek. He's worth more than 17 points.

There's not much in it if you ask me. That's why the best ever arguments keep coming round. And because the demands of each era make it incomparable. But its still Maradona in my book.

Itsnoteasy
14-01-2019, 09:20 AM
Exactly. Greatest player I ever saw was our own Gordon Smith. Most of you never saw him play therefore I cannot be wrong ,but neither can any of you! By the way, Smith Smith scored 364 for Hibs, a club record and British record for a winger.:greengrin

Smith Smith so good you named it twice😉

Itsnoteasy
14-01-2019, 09:22 AM
Duncan Alexander from opta was talking about expected save percentages from last season. De gea was streets ahead of everyone else, and opta estimated that when his 'beyond expected' saves were taken into account, he was worth 17 EXTRA points to Utd last season. An incredible stat, and shows he's of a similar value as the very elite outfield players.

Goram when at Hibs was worth at least a dozen points.

Forza Fred
14-01-2019, 09:26 AM
Goram when at Hibs was worth at least a dozen points.

Which Goram?

Killiehibbie
14-01-2019, 09:30 AM
Which Goram?

The half decent version

BILLYHIBS
14-01-2019, 09:37 AM
i think the 303 is competitive games. Maybe wiki is League goals. The 364 is all games friendlies, wartime, etc.

Scottish League played 308 goals 126
Scottish Cup. Played 36. goals. 12
League Cup. Played. 77 goals. 34
Other games. Played 215goals. 131

Source: fitbastats

Wikidpedia

Played 310 goals 125 ?

Bangkok Hibby
14-01-2019, 10:40 AM
Had the pleasure of watching Messi score his 400th league goal tonight. Astounding stuff. The best we will ever see.

Apart from George Best

MWHIBBIES
14-01-2019, 11:16 AM
There's not much in it if you ask me. That's why the best ever arguments keep coming round. And because the demands of each era make it incomparable. But its still Maradona in my book.

Why Maradona? No real argument for him other than a world cup win which really boils down to Higuain missing a chance in 2014

esjorto
14-01-2019, 07:04 PM
Smith Smith so good you named it twice😉

:greengrin Sorry. My mistake. I meant Smith,Smith,Smith,Smith,Smith, don't have time to do this 364 times.

hibsbollah
14-01-2019, 07:43 PM
Why Maradona? No real argument for him other than a world cup win which really boils down to Higuain missing a chance in 2014

It really doesn't.

majorhibs
15-01-2019, 05:27 PM
Messi, of course currently, Pele & Maradona honourable mentions, the only Ronaldo near Messi was the 21 year old Brazilian World Cup winner before he imploded, not the joker.

Here’s Lucy!
15-01-2019, 05:45 PM
George Best.

cleanyman
15-01-2019, 05:57 PM
I don't think Messi is the best ever. There's an argument he's not even the best of his generation but that's a matter of opinion.

I watch some of the 70's and 80's football on BT and there's not a single Scottish player today with the skills that these guys had. A bygone era of course. Anyway its difficult to say.

Here’s Lucy!
15-01-2019, 05:59 PM
George Best.


I don't think Messi is the best ever. There's an argument he's not even the best of his generation but that's a matter of opinion.

I watch some of the 70's and 80's football on BT and there's not a single Scottish player today with the skills that these guys had. A bygone era of course. Anyway its difficult to say.

100% agree with you.

calumhibee1
15-01-2019, 06:01 PM
I don't think Messi is the best ever. There's an argument he's not even the best of his generation but that's a matter of opinion.

I watch some of the 70's and 80's football on BT and there's not a single Scottish player today with the skills that these guys had. A bygone era of course. Anyway its difficult to say.

Not so much related to Scottish football on its own but when I watch football from the 70s I always think the standard looks miles behind what it is now.

cleanyman
15-01-2019, 06:03 PM
Not so much related to Scottish football on its own but when I watch football from the 70s I always think the standard looks miles behind what it is now.

I used to think that.

But then I realised I'm part of the Sky Sports generation. These guys are playing with footballs that weigh about two stone and in mudbaths yet look at the quality of the play.

Its quite incredible.

My_Wife_Camille
15-01-2019, 06:14 PM
Not so much related to Scottish football on its own but when I watch football from the 70s I always think the standard looks miles behind what it is now.
Totally agree with this. Some of the highlights I’ve seen from the 50’s, both Hibs and otherwise, are so bad they are laughable. Have you ever seen the footage from the 58 World Cup? It looks like a bunch of jokers running around the Gyle Park hungover on a Sunday morning.

MWHIBBIES
15-01-2019, 06:41 PM
Messi, of course currently, Pele & Maradona honourable mentions, the only Ronaldo near Messi was the 21 year old Brazilian World Cup winner before he imploded, not the joker.

Why isn't Cristiano close to Messi? He is no joker, he's incredible. 2nd best player ever.

calumhibee1
15-01-2019, 06:59 PM
Why isn't Cristiano close to Messi? He is no joker, he's incredible. 2nd best player ever.

Agree with that. Don’t think he’s quite as good but he is utterly exceptional. IMO he’s comfortably the 2nd best ever and probably even the best out and out goalscorer ever.

MWHIBBIES
15-01-2019, 07:09 PM
Agree with that. Don’t think he’s quite as good but he is utterly exceptional. IMO he’s comfortably the 2nd best ever and probably even the best out and out goalscorer ever.

Indeed. There is no real metric that puts anyone above them other than people remembering greats from their child hood through tinted goggles. Footballers are better than ever and those 2 are the absolute best.

cleanyman
15-01-2019, 07:15 PM
Indeed. There is no real metric that puts anyone above them other than people remembering greats from their child hood through tinted goggles. Footballers are better than ever and those 2 are the absolute best.

Hmmmm

There's no doubt that footballers are fitter and more athletic than they've ever been but ARE they better footballers? I'd probably disagree with that. Look at George Best and Jimmy Johnstone and what they could do with a football.

hibsbollah
15-01-2019, 07:17 PM
Indeed. There is no real metric that puts anyone above them other than people remembering greats from their child hood through tinted goggles. Footballers are better than ever and those 2 are the absolute best.




There is no 'metric' :confused: when assessing the best player ever. You seem to have a problem differentiating an opinion and a fact. An opinion is like an ersehole, everyone has one.

calumhibee1
15-01-2019, 07:18 PM
Hmmmm

There's no doubt that footballers are fitter and more athletic than they've ever been but ARE they better footballers? I'd probably disagree with that. Look at George Best and Jimmy Johnstone and what they could do with a football.

I look at goals like Zidanes volley at Hampden or Rooney, Ronaldo or Bales overhead kicks in recent years and I just don’t see players with that kind of technique in old clips.

I’ll admit I’m too young to remember much pre-2000 though so I’m probably as guilty of seeing things of my generation through rose tinted glasses as much as people of an older generation would be for their generations footballers. I would say though that I’ve never watched an old clip of a football game and thought wow, that’s superb other than Maradonas goal against England.

cleanyman
15-01-2019, 07:22 PM
I look at goals like Zidanes volley at Hampden or Rooney, Ronaldo or Bales overhead kicks in recent years and I just don’t see players with that kind of technique in old clips.

I’ll admit I’m too young to remember much pre-2000 though so I’m probably as guilty of seeing things of my generation through rose tinted glasses as much as people of an older generation would be for their generations footballers. I would say though that I’ve never watched an old clip of a football game and thought wow, that’s superb other than Maradonas goal against England.

As I said I used to think that.

But since then I've watched hundreds of videos of our best ever players and realised that I don't think the current generation are indeed better footballers. Zidane's volley by the way was nearly 17 years ago....will we be dismissing Zidane in another 10 years time?

Look at Davie Cooper's goal on youtube...think it was a Scottish Cup semi. What a hit.

calumhibee1
15-01-2019, 07:33 PM
As I said I used to think that.

But since then I've watched hundreds of videos of our best ever players and realised that I don't think the current generation are indeed better footballers. Zidane's volley by the way was nearly 17 years ago....will we be dismissing Zidane in another 10 years time?

Look at Davie Cooper's goal on youtube...think it was a Scottish Cup semi. What a hit.

I hadn’t actually really considered how long ago Zidanes goal was, can’t believe that.

I am probably slightly biased to my generation of footballers. Is the Davie Cooper goal against St Mirren/Dunfermline? Was a good hit but goals like that appear in the top leagues every few weeks nowadays.

I do agree with MWC though.. the footage of the 1958 WC makes the standard look really really bad :greengrin

BILLYHIBS
15-01-2019, 07:38 PM
Pele

Messi is very good but to me Pele is the man

Perfect poise finishing balance and the master of every part of the art be it trapping dribbling passing heading athleticism scorer of over 1000 goals in his career scoring three in the 1958 World Cup Semi Final and two in the final as a a seventeen year old

A Brazilian legend and worldwide icon

When I think of Pele I think of him in the same terms as my other hero Cassius Clay (Muhammad Ali)

Both these guys had the X Factor and they both oozed total class both the masters of their sport

Pele : birth of a legend is a good movie

My favourite match involving Pele was the 1970 World Cup Final Brazil 4 v 1 Italy the all time perfect team performance

I rate Messi along side Christiano Ronaldo but Messi just shades it but then we also have Maradona and Johan Cryuff who were both brilliant as well as our own Gordon Smith and the unforgettable George Best

All of the above from different decades and heroes of different generations

In the current generation I see a lot of Peles qualities in Kylian MBappe of PSG but to me the untouchable Pele is my all time great

Played 1363 scored 1281
Source: FIFA

calumhibee1
15-01-2019, 07:41 PM
When I think of Pele I think of him in the same terms as my other hero Cassius Clay (Muhammad Ali)

This is the most outlandish of these comparisons that keep coming up recently that I’ve seen yet.. :greengrin

Only kidding :aok:

BILLYHIBS
15-01-2019, 07:45 PM
This is the most outlandish of these comparisons that keep coming up recently that I’ve seen yet.. :greengrin

Only kidding :aok:

Ha Ha!

Was having a wee chuckle at your comments on the 1958 World Cup

I suggest you look at footage of the Final again a few goals that any public park footballer would be proud of regardless of the era :greengrin

MWHIBBIES
15-01-2019, 07:52 PM
Hmmmm

There's no doubt that footballers are fitter and more athletic than they've ever been but ARE they better footballers? I'd probably disagree with that. Look at George Best and Jimmy Johnstone and what they could do with a football.
Messi and Ronaldo have almost scored more goals than Best made appearances. No real comparison, Messi is much better.

MWHIBBIES
15-01-2019, 07:53 PM
There is no 'metric' :confused: when assessing the best player ever. You seem to have a problem differentiating an opinion and a fact. An opinion is like an ersehole, everyone has one.

My opinion is that there is no comparison. I base it on facts. Of course there is different ways to judge the best players ever. Messi and Ronaldo dominate every one.

calumhibee1
15-01-2019, 07:55 PM
Messi and Ronaldo have almost scored more goals than Best made appearances. No real comparison, Messi is much better.

Messi has scored the exact same as Bests appearances, Ronaldo has scored 2 more.

They’ve also both scored not a kick in the arse off triple the amount of goals and counting.

MWHIBBIES
15-01-2019, 08:01 PM
Messi has scored the exact same as Bests appearances, Ronaldo has scored 2 more.

They’ve also both scored not a kick in the arse off triple the amount of goals and counting.

There you go then, my mistake. Best isn't close to them at all.

cleanyman
15-01-2019, 08:02 PM
Messi and Ronaldo have almost scored more goals than Best made appearances. No real comparison, Messi is much better.

The debate was 'better' footballers

I'm not doubting that Messi is a better footballer than Best. But in no way is someone like Neymar anywhere near him

There seems to be this argument that football before 1992 was irrelevant and the standard was no where near as good as today's

Well...just watch it. I'd like to see these supposedly 'better' footballers play with a two tonne ball and in mudbaths

MWHIBBIES
15-01-2019, 08:10 PM
The debate was 'better' footballers

I'm not doubting that Messi is a better footballer than Best. But in no way is someone like Neymar anywhere near him

There seems to be this argument that football before 1992 was irrelevant and the standard was no where near as good as today's

Well...just watch it. I'd like to see these supposedly 'better' footballers play with a two tonne ball and in mudbaths
I wouldn't like to see that at all but they'd still be excellent. Neymar has already achieved more than Best, scored more for club in less games. To suggest he's nowhere near best is crazy imo

hibsbollah
15-01-2019, 08:11 PM
My opinion is that there is no comparison. I base it on facts. Of course there is different ways to judge the best players ever. Messi and Ronaldo dominate every one.

Until someone invents a time machine, it's still just an opinion as valid as mine.

cleanyman
15-01-2019, 08:12 PM
I wouldn't like to see that at all but they'd still be excellent. Neymar has already achieved more than Best, scored more for club in less games. To suggest he's nowhere near best is crazy imo

As a footballer he isn't anywhere near Best. I'm yet to see anything from him that suggests that.

hibsbollah
15-01-2019, 08:15 PM
I wouldn't like to see that at all but they'd still be excellent. Neymar has already achieved more than Best, scored more for club in less games. To suggest he's nowhere near best is crazy imo

Best is better than Neymar. I think it's 'crazy' to suggest otherwise. But its just an opinion.

MWHIBBIES
15-01-2019, 08:16 PM
Until someone invents a time machine, it's still just an opinion as valid as mine.

Based on quite a bit more though.

MWHIBBIES
15-01-2019, 08:16 PM
Best is better than Neymar. I think it's 'crazy' to suggest otherwise. But its just an opinion.

Why? How was Best better?

hibsbollah
15-01-2019, 08:22 PM
Why? How was Best better?

He just was :faf:

calumhibee1
15-01-2019, 08:22 PM
Best is better than Neymar. I think it's 'crazy' to suggest otherwise. But its just an opinion.

Do you believe football was of a higher standard in the past than it is now? Especially at the top level?

cleanyman
15-01-2019, 08:23 PM
Do you believe football was of a higher standard in the past than it is now? Especially at the top level?

No

It's more athletic but the footballers aren't better

BILLYHIBS
15-01-2019, 08:32 PM
In my day footballers were all different shapes and sizes each with their own attributes nowadays they are all SPARTANS apart from the irrepressible Messi of course!

hibsbollah
15-01-2019, 08:34 PM
Do you believe football was of a higher standard in the past than it is now? Especially at the top level?

Slower, less tactically advanced, less physically powerful players in the past. That favoured players that had more football intelligence. It's just different. Biggest difference nowadays is technological revolution. In ball design, boot design, the state of the pitches, post match analytics, VT, nutrition etc.

I just reject the notion you can make it all about numbers.

BILLYHIBS
15-01-2019, 08:36 PM
Slower, less tactically advanced, less physically powerful players in the past. That favoured players that had more football intelligence. It's just different. Biggest difference nowadays is technological revolution. In ball design, boot design, the state of the pitches, post match analytics, VT, nutrition etc.

I just reject the notion you can make it all about numbers.

Agree 100%

Players nowadays couldnae lace ma boots :greengrin

calumhibee1
15-01-2019, 08:40 PM
Slower, less tactically advanced, less physically powerful players in the past. That favoured players that had more football intelligence. It's just different. Biggest difference nowadays is technological revolution. In ball design, boot design, the state of the pitches, post match analytics, VT, nutrition etc.

I just reject the notion you can make it all about numbers.

I agree to an extent with your last sentence. I do however think that if football is at the very least not any worse than it used to be then a guy with such significantly better numbers in near enough every possible metric in Neymar should surely be seen as at least comparable to George Best? Both played similar positions, both at the top level majority of their careers.. if the stats were a bit closer then I’d be more inclined to allow them to hold less weight but they’re hugely in favour of Neymar.

Radium
15-01-2019, 08:55 PM
4231 is not the least popular formation these days.

Maradonna playing the No 10.
Messi/ Ronaldo either side
Pele up top

Cruyff, Smith, Matthews, Muller on the bench.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

hibsbollah
15-01-2019, 08:56 PM
I agree to an extent with your last sentence. I do however think that if football is at the very least not any worse than it used to be then a guy with such significantly better numbers in near enough every possible metric in Neymar should surely be seen as at least comparable to George Best? Both played similar positions, both at the top level majority of their careers.. if the stats were a bit closer then I’d be more inclined to allow them to hold less weight but they’re hugely in favour of Neymar.

Pele scored 1500 goals in his career, Messi and Ronaldo combined don't get near that, and are unlikely to before they retire. I don't think Pele is better than those two, I just think the bare stats don't tell the whole story.

I'd rather judge players in the same era.

MWHIBBIES
15-01-2019, 09:03 PM
Pele scored 1500 goals in his career, Messi and Ronaldo combined don't get near that, and are unlikely to before they retire. I don't think Pele is better than those two, I just think the bare stats don't tell the whole story.

I'd rather judge players in the same era.

If you include training Pele scored 1500 maybe. You know that's 75 goals a season for 20 years? Pele didn't scored anything like 1500 goals. Most put him at 1200 but I find that pretty hard to believe, he must've been playing against some absolute ***** in Brazil.

My_Wife_Camille
15-01-2019, 09:05 PM
If you include training Pele scored 1500 maybe. You know that's 75 goals a season for 20 years? Pele didn't scored anything like 1500 goals. Most put him at 1200 but I find that pretty hard to believe, he must've been playing against some absolute ***** in Brazil.
A huge chunk of Peles goals are those in friendly matches andchaeiry games etc. I’m sure Messi and Ronaldo would be closer if you included all theirs too

BILLYHIBS
15-01-2019, 09:05 PM
Pele scored 1500 goals in his career, Messi and Ronaldo combined don't get near that, and are unlikely to before they retire. I don't think Pele is better than those two, I just think the bare stats don't tell the whole story.

I'd rather judge players in the same era.

If Pele played nowadays he would be better than these two imho he was anyway and always will be

As you rightly point out it is difficult to compare players from different eras but if you asked me who was the best player between Neymar and George Best I would say George Best all day long but the stats probably do not add up it is just my opinion

The same with Pele

To give you an analogy my youngest over the New Year asked me and my wife if David Bowie was better than Oasis?

calumhibee1
15-01-2019, 09:07 PM
Pele scored 1500 goals in his career, Messi and Ronaldo combined don't get near that, and are unlikely to before they retire. I don't think Pele is better than those two, I just think the bare stats don't tell the whole story.

I'd rather judge players in the same era.

1033 goals.. with nearly 400 of them in friendlys and the competitive ones not being at the top level. Strip out the goals from friendlies and Messi and Ronaldo have both scored not far off as many competitive goals, with theirs being at the top level and careers that are still ongoing.

Anyway, I think we’ll have to agree to disagree :greengrin

SquashedFrogg
15-01-2019, 09:09 PM
If Pele played nowadays he would be better than these two imho he was anyway and always will be

As you rightly point out it is difficult to compare players from different eras but if you asked me who was the best player between Neymar and George Best I would say George Best all day long but the stats probably do not add up it is just my opinion

The same with Pele

To give you an analogy my youngest over the New Year asked me and my wife if David Bowie was better than Oasis?

Watched lots of Messi but too young to watch Pele except tv clips. What was it like watching him? How would you say he was the best?

MWHIBBIES
15-01-2019, 09:09 PM
If Pele played nowadays he would be better than these two imho he was anyway and always will be

As you rightly point out it is difficult to compare players from different eras but if you asked me who was the best player between Neymar and George Best I would say George Best all day long but the stats probably do not add up it is just my opinion

The same with Pele

To give you an analogy my youngest over the New Year asked me and my wife if David Bowie was better than Oasis?

If Pele played today he'd be about the level of other top strikers, Aguero, Kane etc. They'd have utterly pished on the Brazilian league in the 60s as well.

hibsbollah
15-01-2019, 09:10 PM
If you include training Pele scored 1500 maybe. You know that's 75 goals a season for 20 years? Pele didn't scored anything like 1500 goals. Most put him at 1200 but I find that pretty hard to believe, he must've been playing against some absolute ***** in Brazil.

Fine. But you claimed all the matrices favoured Messi and Ron, didn't you? There's the biggest one, goals scored, where they are way behind. Even if a few Pele goals were in friendlies or whatever, theres no way you can discount him getting more than double Messis.

hibsbollah
15-01-2019, 09:11 PM
1033 goals.. with nearly 400 of them in friendlys and the competitive ones not being at the top level. Strip out the goals from friendlies and Messi and Ronaldo have both scored not far off as many competitive goals, with theirs being at the top level and careers that are still ongoing.

Anyway, I think we’ll have to agree to disagree :greengrin

:aok:

MWHIBBIES
15-01-2019, 09:19 PM
Fine. But you claimed all the matrices favoured Messi and Ron, didn't you? There's the biggest one, goals scored, where they are way behind. Even if a few Pele goals were in friendlies or whatever, theres no way you can discount him getting more than double Messis.
Mind what Messi done to Hibs in a friendly? Imagine he could do that every week, he'd score alot more than 1500.

Messi has quite a few years in him yet remember. He's better than ever for goals and assist this season.

majorhibs
15-01-2019, 09:20 PM
Huge Messi fan, but rethinkin, listen what Pele was doin back then was revolutionary, goals & technique & just about better at everything every time, Cruyyf tae, but the fact Pele did what he did just just shades it from Messi, people dissing cos coverage wasnae great then just “well”... watch & learn

BILLYHIBS
15-01-2019, 09:23 PM
Watched lots of Messi but too young to watch Pele except tv clips. What was it like watching him? How would you say he was the best?

To me he was total class he had everything he was the real deal!

Please do not take my word for it speak to older friends or family members

His official FIFA figures speak for itself

played 1363 scored 1281

https://youtu.be/a7pASpKEiKM

SquashedFrogg
15-01-2019, 09:25 PM
To me he was total class he had everything he was the real deal!

Please do not take my word for it speak to older friends or family members

His official FIFA figures speak for itself

played 1363 scored 1281

https://youtu.be/a7pASpKEiKM

Cheers man.

majorhibs
15-01-2019, 09:26 PM
Mind what Messi done to Hibs in a friendly? Imagine he could do that every week, he'd score alot more than 1500.

Messi has quite a few years in him yet remember. He's better than ever for goals and assist this season.

Mind well, said to the laddie, about 7ish then, only time ye’ll see me smilin while Hibs are bein skelped! Messi was then 21 & DC! Proud to have seen Hibs against such a legend.

BILLYHIBS
15-01-2019, 09:53 PM
If Pele played today he'd be about the level of other top strikers, Aguero, Kane etc. They'd have utterly pished on the Brazilian league in the 60s as well.

Eh? Pele better than Kane or Aguerro even Spurs or Man City fans will tell you that

Not only do you have all Peles goals and other achievements * there is also his untold number of assists

*
Please go onto Wikedpedia for full list of honours and achievements that put Kane and Aguerro well and truly in the shade too many to list here

James Stephen
15-01-2019, 09:59 PM
For me ,I would have liked to see messi do the business for argentina before he goes down as a true great.ive never really seen him inspire his country when he plays,looks a bit stroppy in that format,I think of great players bringing the best out of ther team,messi doesny do that for the argies.great club player undoubtedly.but not all round.ronaldo beats him for me easily.

Like win the under 20 world cup, win the olympics, get to three copa America finals and one world cup final?

Why does his greatness have to depend on whether Higuain could score a chance in a tight final?

Ive never understood that argument.

MWHIBBIES
15-01-2019, 10:05 PM
Eh? Pele better than Kane or Aguerro even Spurs or Man City fans will tell you that

Not only do you have all Peles goals and other achievements * there is also his untold number of assists

*
Please go onto Wikedpedia for full list of honours and achievements that put Kane and Aguerro well and truly in the shade too many to list here

Pele played in a pretty poor league his entire career. He never played Vs other top sides consistently. Nearly half his goals were in friendlies. He was obviously brilliant but the level of football in the 60s wasn't what it is now.

BILLYHIBS
15-01-2019, 10:12 PM
Pele played in a pretty poor league his entire career. He never played Vs other top sides consistently. Nearly half his goals were in friendlies. He was obviously brilliant but the level of football in the 60s wasn't what it is now.

OK going by your crazy logic the Spurs and Man City Managers can say to the market place our strikers are better than the great Pele the man voted the greatest ever footballer 500m each please

Regardless of your skewed logic if you look at Peles individual performances against the worlds greatest teams at that time you could tell just by looking at him he was a class apart and in a different league

I don’t believe I am defending or trying to justify the greatest player in the world on this forum

In my honest opinion of course :greengrin
Santos World Club Winners 1962 and 1963
beat Benfica and Milan so their league couldnae have been that pish!

MWHIBBIES
15-01-2019, 10:46 PM
OK going by your crazy logic the Spurs and Man City Managers can say to the market place our strikers are better than the great Pele the man voted the greatest ever footballer 500m each please

Regardless of your skewed logic if you look at Peles individual performances against the worlds greatest teams at that time you could tell just by looking at him he was a class apart and in a different league

I don’t believe I am defending or trying to justify the greatest player in the world on this forum

In my honest opinion of course :greengrin
Santos World Club Winners 1962 and 1963
beat Benfica and Milan so their league couldnae have been that pish!

Pele would be a brilliant player today, he wouldn't score anything like the goals he did though. He'd probably get 30/40 a season, like other top strikers. That's the point I'm making. With real defenders and Goalies instead of when teams played with 2 defenders he wouldn't look anywhere near as good. Pele was the best player when football was a game, it's now a profession and a lifestyle where winning matters at all costs. Look at some of his goals and how open it is. Nothing like today. Goalies didn't even have gloves FFS.

BILLYHIBS
15-01-2019, 10:58 PM
Pele would be a brilliant player today, he wouldn't score anything like the goals he did though. He'd probably get 30/40 a season, like other top strikers. That's the point I'm making. With real defenders and Goalies instead of when teams played with 2 defenders he wouldn't look anywhere near as good. Pele was the best player when football was a game, it's now a profession and a lifestyle where winning matters at all costs. Look at some of his goals and how open it is. Nothing like today. Goalies didn't even have gloves FFS.
Agree! But Pele would be fitter faster have decent bits then again we all had Puma King Peles and wanted to be him I remember my hero Sojer had a pair Pele would also be carrying less weight as he would be on protein and less carbs so it would be win win he would also earn loads more money like my other hero King Paddy should have
Dont spoil it Peles still the King to me and millions of others

MWHIBBIES
15-01-2019, 11:01 PM
Agree! But Pele would be fitter faster have decent bits then again we all had Puma King Peles and wanted to be him I remember my hero Sojer had a pair Pele would also be carrying less weight as he would be on protein and less carbs so it would be win win he would also learn loads more money like my other hero King Paddy should have
Dont spoil it Peles still the King to me and millions of others
You need some punctuation in there.

The 90+2
15-01-2019, 11:03 PM
A chain smoker from Holland was the best player and manager the world has ever seen.

BILLYHIBS
15-01-2019, 11:04 PM
You need some punctuation in there.
I know difficult on my mobile I can hardly see the screen I’m in my sixties you know need my iPad

BILLYHIBS
15-01-2019, 11:16 PM
A chain smoker from Holland was the best player and manager the world has ever seen.

Mentioned him!

:thumbsup:

hibsbollah
15-01-2019, 11:19 PM
A chain smoker from Holland was the best player and manager the world has ever seen.

Agree, but Latapy wasn't Dutch.

CMurdoch
15-01-2019, 11:33 PM
If Pele played nowadays he would be better than these two imho he was anyway and always will be

As you rightly point out it is difficult to compare players from different eras but if you asked me who was the best player between Neymar and George Best I would say George Best all day long but the stats probably do not add up it is just my opinion

The same with Pele

To give you an analogy my youngest over the New Year asked me and my wife if David Bowie was better than Oasis?

The Thin White Duke or a group of revisionist, good for 2 albums bawbags.
Toughie right enough :wink:

BILLYHIBS
15-01-2019, 11:37 PM
The Thin White Duke or a group of revisionist, good for 2 albums bawbags.
Toughie right enough :wink:

Aye!

I just looked at my Mrs and we burst out laughing

The laddie wondered what we were laughing at?

He knew

BILLYHIBS
15-01-2019, 11:39 PM
Agree, but Latapy wasn't Dutch.

Another of my heroes!

That is for another thread

The 90+2
15-01-2019, 11:44 PM
Agree, but Latapy wasn't Dutch.

Amen. He is still my footballing god. 👍

The 90+2
15-01-2019, 11:47 PM
Mentioned him!

:thumbsup:

Footballing genius Bill. Had the pleasure of meeting him in Manchester when his boy was at United and a friend was in the youth team (not Sir David or Mikey) never been so star struck in my life 💚

BILLYHIBS
16-01-2019, 12:11 AM
Footballing genius Bill. Had the pleasure of meeting him in Manchester when his boy was at United and a friend was in the youth team (not Sir David or Mikey) never been so star struck in my life 💚
Need to read his book

God!

Haymaker
16-01-2019, 03:08 AM
Robin Friday was better.

Allant1981
16-01-2019, 07:36 AM
How often did people actually get to see pele play? Was there a lot of Brazilian football on the tv back then?

BILLYHIBS
16-01-2019, 07:54 AM
How often did people actually get to see pele play? Was there a lot of Brazilian football on the tv back then?

Good question

Back in the sixties Brazil was like the other side of the moon and you only ever saw him playing for Brazil in international tournaments on Council Telly which only had three channels back then

He was however a celebrity a bit like the Harlem Globetrotters at the time and you got the odd snippet on News at Ten of a brilliant goal for Santos and you definitely sat up and took notice indeed I remember his 1000th goal was well covered by the news press

When he signed for New York Cosmos in an attempt to boost interest in “soccer” in the US coverage and interest in Pele went into overdrive and total meltdown

Here’s Lucy!
16-01-2019, 05:46 PM
Agree! But Pele would be fitter faster have decent bits then again we all had Puma King Peles and wanted to be him I remember my hero Sojer had a pair Pele would also be carrying less weight as he would be on protein and less carbs so it would be win win he would also earn loads more money like my other hero King Paddy should have
Dont spoil it Peles still the King to me and millions of others

Great, great player - no doubt about that but, as a human being, I think there was a lot left to be desired.

660
16-01-2019, 06:04 PM
Maradona is a god whereas Messi is just a great football player.

Quoting goal scoring stats is pointless given it’s a lot easier to score goals now for world class players.

BILLYHIBS
16-01-2019, 06:04 PM
Great, great player - no doubt about that but, as a human being, I think there was a lot left to be desired.

Ambassador for UNESCO?

Pray enlighten me?

:dunno:

calumhibee1
16-01-2019, 06:07 PM
Maradona is a god whereas Messi is just a great football player.

Quoting goal scoring stats is pointless given it’s a lot easier to score goals now for world class players.

Why’s it easier now? Teams now are much better tactically and players like Messi, Ronaldo etc come up against teams with two banks of 4 sitting in front of the goals for them to break down. They don’t get to come up against teams playing a 2-3-5 etc.

And we’re also talking about guys in Messi and Ronaldo who have scored nearly double the goals Maradona did. It’s way too big of a gap to ever be described as pointless to use as a comparison.

Here’s Lucy!
16-01-2019, 06:09 PM
Ambassador for UNESCO?

Pray enlighten me?

:dunno:

Was there not something about him having various affairs and disowning one of his own daughters (or not even admitting she was his)?

Something like that.

660
16-01-2019, 06:17 PM
Why’s it easier now? Teams now are much better tactically and players like Messi, Ronaldo etc come up against teams with two banks of 4 sitting in front of the goals for them to break down. They don’t get to come up against teams playing a 2-3-5 etc.

They also don’t have player trying to break them in half at every opportunity. The rules re tackles have become extremely strict compared to what Maradona has to put up with. Maradona lost 30% of his ankle mobility permanently due to injury.

cleanyman
16-01-2019, 06:20 PM
Why’s it easier now? Teams now are much better tactically and players like Messi, Ronaldo etc come up against teams with two banks of 4 sitting in front of the goals for them to break down. They don’t get to come up against teams playing a 2-3-5 etc.

And we’re also talking about guys in Messi and Ronaldo who have scored nearly double the goals Maradona did. It’s way too big of a gap to ever be described as pointless to use as a comparison.

Once again Calum

These guys are playing in terrible conditions during the winter and as a poster has said there were players trying to end careers

Look at the pictures of Pele getting carried off in a world cup after numerous hacks. Those were tough tackles.

calumhibee1
16-01-2019, 06:22 PM
They also don’t have player trying to break them in half at every opportunity. The rules re tackles have become extremely strict compared to what Maradona has to put up with. Maradona lost 30% of his ankle mobility permanently due to injury.

But they do have to play against guys that are athletic machines rather than guys who chain smoke and drink 10 pints a day.

Having looked previously at league tables from the 50s in Scotland, one thing I noticed was how many goals each team scored. Teams were finishing at the bottom end of the league with goals for columns in the high 70s. That would suggest it was a lot easier to score goals then than it is now. I appreciate that’s not Maradonas era btw but the idea that this is some sort of easy period to score goals in doesn’t really add up or else more players would be scoring 50+ a season. It’s more a case of Messi and Ronaldo making it look easy because they’re so incredibly good.

MWHIBBIES
16-01-2019, 06:23 PM
They also don’t have player trying to break them in half at every opportunity. The rules re tackles have become extremely strict compared to what Maradona has to put up with. Maradona lost 30% of his ankle mobility permanently due to injury.

Maybe he wouldn't have lost that mobility had he actually taken care of himself instead of snorting ching?

This player trying to break him in half thing is such a myth. Sergio Ramos alone has tried to injure Messi multiple times. Not much has changed. Messi is just better in every way.

Johnny_Leith
16-01-2019, 06:25 PM
Messi and Ronaldo have both had their share of ridiculous, potential career ending tackles. It's not as if nobody is allowed to touch them. Youtube tackle compilations v either.

calumhibee1
16-01-2019, 06:26 PM
Once again Calum

These guys are playing in terrible conditions during the winter and as a poster has said there were players trying to end careers

Look at the pictures of Pele getting carried off in a world cup after numerous hacks. Those were tough tackles.

And you don’t believe that getting tackled by a guy who’s 6ft3 and 15 stone of athletic muscle wouldn’t hurt? They may not get away with the illegal side of the game now but getting hit by defenders nowadays would be like getting hit by a train compared to the much more unathletic defenders of yesteryear.

calumhibee1
16-01-2019, 06:27 PM
Messi and Ronaldo have both had their share of ridiculous, potential career ending tackles. It's not as if nobody is allowed to touch them. Youtube tackle compilations v either.

Yup. There was one game against Real where was Messi had the whole team take turns kicking lumps out him. It’s not as if they get to play the game with nobody allowed within touching distance of them (although at times nobody can get within touching distance :greengrin)

My_Wife_Camille
16-01-2019, 06:29 PM
They also don’t have player trying to break them in half at every opportunity. The rules re tackles have become extremely strict compared to what Maradona has to put up with. Maradona lost 30% of his ankle mobility permanently due to injury.
Exactly. They have real, quality defenders to compete against rather than the cloggers from the black and white days. Are we to believe that these players who would just try to kick and foul players are more effective than the likes of Ramos, Pique, Puyol etc?

With the added physicality, strength and Athleticism the likes of Messi and Ronaldo have these days they’d make a mockery of the ‘hairy arsed defenders’ from those days and, imo, would have scored twice as many as they have in this era. To say it was harder to score then is laughable, especially when all the evidences points to there being far more goals scored back then than there is now.

Watching highlights of football in the 50’s - 70’s is laughable stuff. I respect your opinion but I feel it’s nothing more than a bit of rosy retrospection on your part.

BILLYHIBS
16-01-2019, 06:37 PM
Was there not something about him having various affairs and disowning one of his own daughters (or not even admitting she was his)?

Something like that.

Yip!

Every day is a school day

Married three times umpteen affairs seven children one of whom he did not recognise though listed by Wikedpedia as undoubtedly being his sadly died in 2006

Must have had his reasons but agree not good as he is a millionaire several times over

Over the years I have heard that both Maradona and Messi also had different skeletons in their closets but that does not excuse Pele

calumhibee1
16-01-2019, 06:39 PM
Exactly. They have real, quality defenders to compete against rather than the cloggers from the black and white days. Are we to believe that these players who would just try to kick and foul players are more effective than the likes of Ramos, Pique, Puyol etc?

With the added physicality, strength and Athleticism the likes of Messi and Ronaldo have these days they’d make a mockery of the ‘hairy arsed defenders’ from those days and, imo, would have scored twice as many as they have in this era. To say it was harder to score then is laughable, especially when all the evidences points to there being far more goals scored back then than there is now.

Watching highlights of football in the 50’s - 70’s is laughable stuff. I respect your opinion but I feel it’s nothing more than a bit of rosy retrospection on your part.

That’s the way I see it. There’s an arguement that with modern day training and sports science etc that these guys could have been better than Messi and Ronaldo. However, if you take Pele “as was”, Best “as was”, Maradona “as was” and drop them into today’s football they’d be nowhere near the elite level. If you dropped Ronaldo or Messi into the 50s - 70s “as is” then it’d be a cricket score every week.

I think it depends how you are looking at the comparisons. If you’re comparing them to other players of their era and then deciding who was the furthest ahead of there peers then I’ve no idea who was best. If you’re comparing current players to older players based purely on physical and technical attributes then the older players don’t stand a chance IMO but then that’s the same in every sport.

HUTCHYHIBBY
16-01-2019, 06:42 PM
Pele

Messi is very good but to me Pele is the man

Perfect poise finishing balance and the master of every part of the art be it trapping dribbling passing heading athleticism scorer of over 1000 goals in his career scoring three in the 1958 World Cup Semi Final and two in the final as a a seventeen year old

A Brazilian legend and worldwide icon

When I think of Pele I think of him in the same terms as my other hero Cassius Clay (Muhammad Ali)

Both these guys had the X Factor and they both oozed total class both the masters of their sport

Pele : birth of a legend is a good movie

My favourite match involving Pele was the 1970 World Cup Final Brazil 4 v 1 Italy the all time perfect team performance

I rate Messi along side Christiano Ronaldo but Messi just shades it but then we also have Maradona and Johan Cryuff who were both brilliant as well as our own Gordon Smith and the unforgettable George Best

All of the above from different decades and heroes of different generations

In the current generation I see a lot of Peles qualities in Kylian MBappe of PSG but to me the untouchable Pele is my all time great

Played 1363 scored 1281
Source: FIFA

Pele's best match was against The German Army in Escape to Victory! ☺

hibsbollah
16-01-2019, 06:47 PM
How often did people actually get to see pele play? Was there a lot of Brazilian football on the tv back then?

None at all, to my memory. You had the occasional snippet in World of Sport on ITV in the seventies, 1987 Transworld sport was the first time you had regular foreign highlights, but just in wee five minute bursts.

Football Italia on channel four was the game changer for foreign highlights in the early 90s.

Apparently in Italy and France you got regular foreign football shows back in the day when there was nothing like it in the UK.

cleanyman
16-01-2019, 06:53 PM
That’s the way I see it. There’s an arguement that with modern day training and sports science etc that these guys could have been better than Messi and Ronaldo. However, if you take Pele “as was”, Best “as was”, Maradona “as was” and drop them into today’s football they’d be nowhere near the elite level. If you dropped Ronaldo or Messi into the 50s - 70s “as is” then it’d be a cricket score every week.

I think it depends how you are looking at the comparisons. If you’re comparing them to other players of their era and then deciding who was the furthest ahead of there peers then I’ve no idea who was best. If you’re comparing current players to older players based purely on physical and technical attributes then the older players don’t stand a chance IMO but then that’s the same in every sport.

But you'll never know

You're the kind of guy who'll be dismissing Messi and Ronaldo in 40 years when two even better players come along.

Which there will be by the way

hibsbollah
16-01-2019, 06:53 PM
Maybe he wouldn't have lost that mobility had he actually taken care of himself instead of snorting ching?

This player trying to break him in half thing is such a myth. Sergio Ramos alone has tried to injure Messi multiple times. Not much has changed. Messi is just better in every way.

:faf: come on now, you're being silly.
There is no comparison with the tackles of the 70s and 80s and the occasional sly stamp you get today. Quite often a top level full back would get away with a warning for a 21st century 'red card challenge' early doors (a 'reducer' in parlance of old), then another Vinny Jones knee high assault might get a yellow.
You'd have to do four or five dangerous challenges, or punch someone, to actually get a red. Watch a game sometime.

And serie a defenders? In the 80s? No myth. They battered you. And noone got it like Maradona.

My_Wife_Camille
16-01-2019, 06:54 PM
That’s the way I see it. There’s an arguement that with modern day training and sports science etc that these guys could have been better than Messi and Ronaldo. However, if you take Pele “as was”, Best “as was”, Maradona “as was” and drop them into today’s football they’d be nowhere near the elite level. If you dropped Ronaldo or Messi into the 50s - 70s “as is” then it’d be a cricket score every week.

I think it depends how you are looking at the comparisons. If you’re comparing them to other players of their era and then deciding who was the furthest ahead of there peers then I’ve no idea who was best. If you’re comparing current players to older players based purely on physical and technical attributes then the older players don’t stand a chance IMO.
It’s a bit like saying that the guy who broke the world record for the 100m sprint in 1972 is faster than Usain Bolt imo. Maybe he could have been if he has the same specialist footwear, training, nutrition etc but he didn’t so he wasn’t.

Same applies in the Messi/Maradona, Ronaldo/Pelé debate imo. Given the same opportunities the likes of Maradona and Pelé might have reached the same levels and Messi and Ronaldo but unfortunately for them they didn’t.

cleanyman
16-01-2019, 06:55 PM
It’s a bit like saying that the guy who broke the world record for the 100m sprint in 1972 is faster than Usain Bolt imo. Maybe he could have been if he has the same specialist footwear, training, nutrition etc but he didn’t so he wasn’t.

Same applies in the Messi/Maradona, Ronaldo/Pelé debate imo. Given the same opportunities the likes of Maradona and Pelé might have reached the same levels and Messi and Ronaldo but unfortunately for them they didn’t.

Football is a completely different sport. It's a specific case.

My_Wife_Camille
16-01-2019, 07:01 PM
https://youtu.be/rp1U2GhbYioHighlights of the 1958 World Cup Final.

Like drunk children 😂

28secs to 58secs is pure comedy.

cleanyman
16-01-2019, 07:03 PM
https://youtu.be/rp1U2GhbYioHighlights of the 1958 World Cup Final.

Like drunk children 😂

28secs to 58secs is pure comedy.

You didn't have HD in 1958

GTMRossaK3
16-01-2019, 07:06 PM
The one player I’d like to go back in time to see play having read the excellent Prince of Wingers - a fantastic and poiniant account of a father by his son (still reckon it should have been Tony playing the piano on the Time for Heroes dvd)

I too would have just loved to have seen Gordon play but being born late 1950 & growing up in the West Highlands I had no opportunity - even having decided to be a Hibs supporter for life in those far off days - Edinburgh was half the world away - my Dad's old Austin A40 Somerset probably wouldn't have made it anyway!

I remember reading a while ago that when he started out on his football career the family had moved from Edinburgh, where he was born, to Montrose and he would play for Kirriemuir Thistle on the Saturday morning then cycle the 24 miles to Montrose to play for Montrose Roselea in the afternoon! Have seen nothing to contradict this fact. That's football dedication.

calumhibee1
16-01-2019, 07:06 PM
But you'll never know

You're the kind of guy who'll be dismissing Messi and Ronaldo in 40 years when two even better players come along.

Which there will be by the way

I probably will be. And that’ll probably be because whoever the top player is at that time will be taller, faster, stronger, more powerful and have better technique than they two. That’s just evolution for ya :greengrin

I think the fact that any sport that you can easily measure such as 100m sprint, swimming etc all have the current world record holders just now (or at least very recently) show that sportsmen now are better than ever. Footballs not as obvious because they’re so many different parts to be being a footballer but it would defy logic for footballers to be different from the rest.

Pagan Hibernia
16-01-2019, 07:14 PM
These greatest ever debates are quite tiresome. They can never be proven. I’ve spoken to people in their 80s now who insist that Duncan Edwards was the greatest all round footballer of all time. We can never know because he died aged 21.

One thing’s for sure, some day Messi will stop playing football, and the football world will be a sadder place. We should all try and enjoy him while he’s around. And when the next superstar of the next generation comes round, as they always do, the next generation of fans will, as always, think ‘their greatest’ is ‘The Greatest’

hibsbollah
16-01-2019, 07:15 PM
These greatest ever debates are quite tiresome. They can never be proven. I’ve spoken to people in their 80s now who insist that Duncan Edwards was the greatest all round footballer of all time. We can never know because he died aged 21.

One thing’s for sure, some day Messi will stop playing football, and the football world will be a sadder place. We should all try and enjoy him while he’s around. And when the next superstar of the next generation comes round, as they always do, the next generation of fans will, as always, think ‘their greatest’ is ‘The Greatest’
:top marks

Here’s Lucy!
16-01-2019, 07:21 PM
Yip!

Every day is a school day

Married three times umpteen affairs seven children one of whom he did not recognise though listed by Wikedpedia as undoubtedly being his sadly died in 2006

Must have had his reasons but agree not good as he is a millionaire several times over

Over the years I have heard that both Maradona and Messi also had different skeletons in their closets but that does not excuse Pele

Billy, as it's a thread about great players (which Pele definitely was) I should not have diversed from that. I regret bringing this into the discussion.

:aok:

ps He was miles better than Messi! :wink:

GTMRossaK3
16-01-2019, 07:35 PM
Mind what Messi done to Hibs in a friendly? Imagine he could do that every week, he'd score alot more than 1500.

Messi has quite a few years in him yet remember. He's better than ever for goals and assist this season.

Was that the game at Murrayfield? Can't remember why it was played at Murrayfield. Enjoyable day out to see some world class stars. The Barcelona stars weren't too bad either!!

BILLYHIBS
16-01-2019, 08:14 PM
Billy, as it's a thread about great players (which Pele definitely was) I should not have diversed from that. I regret bringing this into the discussion.

:aok:

ps He was miles better than Messi! :wink:
:thumbsup:

HUTCHYHIBBY
16-01-2019, 08:27 PM
Was that the game at Murrayfield? Can't remember why it was played at Murrayfield. Enjoyable day out to see some world class stars. The Barcelona stars weren't too bad either!!

Barca were EVS HT-FT, unbelievable Jeff! 👍

MWHIBBIES
16-01-2019, 09:42 PM
:faf: come on now, you're being silly.
There is no comparison with the tackles of the 70s and 80s and the occasional sly stamp you get today. Quite often a top level full back would get away with a warning for a 21st century 'red card challenge' early doors (a 'reducer' in parlance of old), then another Vinny Jones knee high assault might get a yellow.
You'd have to do four or five dangerous challenges, or punch someone, to actually get a red. Watch a game sometime.

And serie a defenders? In the 80s? No myth. They battered you. And noone got it like Maradona.

So defenders just dived in all the time? Messi would walk past that. Defenders now are much better than they were then, quicker, more disciplined, stronger, smarter and these guys score far far more goals against them than Maradona or Best ever did.

The occasional sly stamp is not true at all. Takes only a quick Google search to see top players getting smashed just this season.

calumhibee1
16-01-2019, 09:53 PM
Was that the game at Murrayfield? Can't remember why it was played at Murrayfield. Enjoyable day out to see some world class stars. The Barcelona stars weren't too bad either!!

It was. I may be wrong but Dundee United drew with them (or a narrow defeat) at Tannadice the week before.

Allant1981
16-01-2019, 09:59 PM
It was. I may be wrong but Dundee United drew with them (or a narrow defeat) at Tannadice the week before.

Was it not 5 or 6-1 to Barca against utd

My_Wife_Camille
16-01-2019, 10:15 PM
It was. I may be wrong but Dundee United drew with them (or a narrow defeat) at Tannadice the week before.
That’s was the previous year. Barca won 1-0 with a last minute penalty

hibsbollah
16-01-2019, 10:43 PM
So defenders just dived in all the time? Messi would walk past that. Defenders now are much better than they were then, quicker, more disciplined, stronger, smarter and these guys score far far more goals against them than Maradona or Best ever did.

The occasional sly stamp is not true at all. Takes only a quick Google search to see top players getting smashed just this season.

No, they didn't 'dive in' all the time. They hurt you, on purpose.

The fact you can Google search an occurrence of violent play or two these days, doesn't change the reality that it was a regular occurrence back then, it is an occasional occurrence now.

But I think you know that really. you're arguing cos you like it.

Radium
16-01-2019, 11:09 PM
So defenders just dived in all the time? Messi would walk past that. Defenders now are much better than they were then, quicker, more disciplined, stronger, smarter and these guys score far far more goals against them than Maradona or Best ever did.

The occasional sly stamp is not true at all. Takes only a quick Google search to see top players getting smashed just this season.

https://youtu.be/CpxoTiKkvw8

Slightly before my time and it is Celtic. Athletico Madrid however show why it gets described as a different era in terms of tackling


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

hibsbollah
16-01-2019, 11:51 PM
https://youtu.be/CpxoTiKkvw8

Slightly before my time and it is Celtic. Athletico Madrid however show why it gets described as a different era in terms of tackling


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Never seen that before, amazing.

WeeRussell
17-01-2019, 04:39 AM
No doubt tackling and tackling rules have changes since Maradona and Pele playing days. But why does everyone assume Messi etc wouldn’t handle playing the same way the above two did?

Who knows.. if diving and rolling around didn’t work the way it does now, even the likes of Ronaldo wouldn’t bother with it and stand-up pretty well against these hardman defenders of yesteryear, given his physical attributes.

SirDavidsNapper
17-01-2019, 06:45 AM
It was. I may be wrong but Dundee United drew with them (or a narrow defeat) at Tannadice the week before.

Lost 0-1 with a 90th min penalty

MWHIBBIES
17-01-2019, 07:13 AM
No, they didn't 'dive in' all the time. They hurt you, on purpose.

The fact you can Google search an occurrence of violent play or two these days, doesn't change the reality that it was a regular occurrence back then, it is an occasional occurrence now.

But I think you know that really. you're arguing cos you like it.

I just don't see why Messi wouldn't have handled it just fine? Ronaldo as well, he's much bigger, stronger and fitter than Maradona. It's the only argument you seem to have, they got kicked a bit more 40 years ago, you actually think that is the difference between Messi and Ronaldo scoring far far more goals?

Why do you keep taking personal shots at me recently? It's very strange. I disagree with what you're saying so we're talking about it. Please stop trying to make it personal.

Viva_Palmeiras
17-01-2019, 07:20 AM
I just don't see why Messi wouldn't have handled it just fine? Ronaldo as well, he's much bigger, stronger and fitter than Maradona. It's the only argument you seem to have, they got kicked a bit more 40 years ago, you actually think that is the difference between Messi and Ronaldo scoring far far more goals?

Why do you keep taking personal shots at me recently? It's very strange. I disagree with what you're saying so we're talking about it. Please stop trying to make it personal.

Balls.
I mean balls make a difference.

hibsbollah
17-01-2019, 08:29 AM
I just don't see why Messi wouldn't have handled it just fine? Ronaldo as well, he's much bigger, stronger and fitter than Maradona. It's the only argument you seem to have, they got kicked a bit more 40 years ago, you actually think that is the difference between Messi and Ronaldo scoring far far more goals?

Why do you keep taking personal shots at me recently? It's very strange. I disagree with what you're saying so we're talking about it. Please stop trying to make it personal.

Your debating style involves jumping all over other posters, calling valid opinions 'wrong' and being argumentative for the sake of it. Its not just me that's pointed it out.

MWHIBBIES
17-01-2019, 09:02 AM
Your debating style involves jumping all over other posters, calling valid opinions 'wrong' and being argumentative for the sake of it. Its not just me that's pointed it out.

So would you like me to finish every post with "well you're entitled to your opinion" like others do? It really goes without saying, of course you are. I disagree though. Which I'm entitled to do.

I'm not being argumentative for the sake of it, I'm disagreeing because it's a forum and I can do that.

I've never had a single warning from a admin or mod in nearly 10 years so I'm obviously not breaking any rules.

SirDavidsNapper
17-01-2019, 09:34 AM
Ronaldo (Cristiano) is the best ever for me. He's excelled at every club he's played for in four different countries, Sporting, Man United, Real Madrid and now Juve winning five Champions leagues with two different clubs so far. Also dragged a relatively average Portugal all the way to become champions of Europe. Just incredible. It's no surprise Real Madrid are way off the pace this season without him.

Messi is fantastic but has been in his comfort zone at Barca surrounded by exceptional players for years and never really done much with Argentina. That's the difference for me.

Would take him in the January window though :wink:

GreenCastle
17-01-2019, 09:51 AM
Ronaldo (Cristiano) is the best ever for me. He's excelled at every club he's played for in four different countries, Sporting, Man United, Real Madrid and now Juve winning five Champions leagues with two different clubs so far. Also dragged a relatively average Portugal all the way to become champions of Europe. Just incredible. It's no surprise Real Madrid are way off the pace this season without him.

Messi is fantastic but has been in his comfort zone at Barca surrounded by exceptional players for years and never really done much with Argentina. That's the difference for me.

Would take him in the January window though :wink:

We shall disagree.

Ronaldo has signed for teams all who were top of the league in the 4 countries.

Portugal - he got injured early in the final. But obviously contributed before.

The stats of the 2 players should never be compared s I’ve witness Messi several times letting other take penalties / set up others for tap ins when he could have scored them himself.

The only area I would say Ronaldo is better than Messi is at is heading. But when it comes to all round play there better players than Ronaldo. But the one thing Ronaldo does do is score goals something that can’t be argued.

calumhibee1
17-01-2019, 10:02 AM
We shall disagree.

Ronaldo has signed for teams all who were top of the league in the 4 countries.

Portugal - he got injured early in the final. But obviously contributed before.

The stats of the 2 players should never be compared s I’ve witness Messi several times letting other take penalties / set up others for tap ins when he could have scored them himself.

The only area I would say Ronaldo is better than Messi is at is heading. But when it comes to all round play there better players than Ronaldo. But the one thing Ronaldo does do is score goals something that can’t be argued.

I’m somewhere in the middle of the two of you :greengrin

I agree regards Ronaldo and the Euros. Messi took Argentina to the final of the WC and ultimately just fell short. Ronaldo took Portugal to the final of the Euros and didn’t contribute in the final due to injury. Fair enough he picked up a winners medal but in terms of their overall contribution I’m not sure you can hold that against Messi when Ronaldo played next to no part in the final.

Ronaldo to me though is streets ahead of everyone other than Messi. Although there’s not a lot between the two of them for me.

SirDavidsNapper
17-01-2019, 10:12 AM
I’m somewhere in the middle of the two of you :greengrin

I agree regards Ronaldo and the Euros. Messi took Argentina to the final of the WC and ultimately just fell short. Ronaldo took Portugal to the final of the Euros and didn’t contribute in the final due to injury. Fair enough he picked up a winners medal but in terms of their overall contribution I’m not sure you can hold that against Messi when Ronaldo played next to no part in the final.

Ronaldo to me though is streets ahead of everyone other than Messi. Although there’s not a lot between the two of them for me.

Just lucky that both have played during our time

calumhibee1
17-01-2019, 10:17 AM
Just lucky that both have played during our time

Definitely :agree:

The Modfather
17-01-2019, 10:21 AM
https://youtu.be/CpxoTiKkvw8

Slightly before my time and it is Celtic. Athletico Madrid however show why it gets described as a different era in terms of tackling


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Looks like our last few derbies at Tynecastle where neither side needed the ball.

My_Wife_Camille
17-01-2019, 10:34 AM
https://youtu.be/CpxoTiKkvw8

Slightly before my time and it is Celtic. Athletico Madrid however show why it gets described as a different era in terms of tackling


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkNot much difference between that and Portugal v Holland in 2006 imo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpJr6QuMQzk