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View Full Version : Replacing the McGeouch, McGinn, Allan midfield: We need to have patience



One Day Soon
30-12-2018, 03:00 PM
I actually think we are a short but tricky distance from being a very good side. Defensively we are in excellent condition - the keepers are all good and the choices for all outfield defensive positions look strong, particularly with Mackie blossoming so well and Gray now back. Our goals against record would have us on the edge of the top four if everything else was working. Even if Efe goes the defence should be pretty tight.

In midfield we have a lot of choices - the problem is that they are very, very similar. The players we have to pick from there would be okay if we also had a genuine play maker (it doesn't have to be Scott Allan but it needs him or someone like him) and a terrier. As we have neither of these it means we don't get enough defensive cover from the midfield and we also don't get enough structured play on the ground from the midfield to our forwards. It also means we give away a lot of possession and put ourselves under way more pressure than necessary. The forward play from midfield isn't crisp enough and in the games where we under perform we consistently do three things: choose square ball options instead of forward passes, play wide balls behind the runner rather than in front of them and inevitably take two or three touches where one is needed.

Up front we are light of one player and the options we do have are under performing. I think the cause there is a mixture of injury, loss of confidence, poor service, inexperience and - certainly in Kamberi's case - the opposition sussing out after his first season that if you give him no space and sit right in top of him he struggles. Look at how many games this season he is receiving the ball with his back to goal - when that is forced on him the only way we will get value from him is if the forward ball is played very early (before the usual two lines of four can form up) and/or if we play him alongside someone who will stick close to him to pick up the knock downs and flicks. Him and Shaw doesn't work.

Beyond all this the injuries have been horrendous and that doesn't help with either shape or trying to consistently press in game to game.

So my January shopping list is for three additions: midfield play maker and a terrier and a younger Kenny Miller type. Those, a settled team and fewer injuries and we finish top six easily and close to, or in, top four. The draws in particular are what is damaging us but I like our next ten games and would expect a heavy points haul from most of them if we can sign what we need.

I'll finish with this thought: you don't sign and develop a midfield like McGinn, McGeouch and Allan overnight or even in one window - look at the signing dates for those three below. It takes time to re-blend it and since we lost all of those three players just four months ago we should expect it to take a while to fix and we need to show patience while we get there.

August 2014 - Dylan McGeouch
July 2015 - John McGinn
January 2018 - Scott Allan

Sir David Gray
30-12-2018, 03:04 PM
I actually think we are a short but tricky distance from being a very good side. Defensively we are in excellent condition - the keepers are all good and the choices for all outfield defensive positions look strong, particularly with Mackie blossoming so well and Gray now back. Our goals against record would have us on the edge of the top four if everything else was working. Even if Efe goes the defence should be pretty tight.

In midfield we have a lot of choices - the problem is that they are very, very similar. The players we have to pick from there would be okay if we also had a genuine play maker (it doesn't have to be Scott Allan but it needs him or someone like him) and a terrier. As we have neither of these it means we don't get enough defensive cover from the midfield and we also don't get enough structured play on the ground from the midfield to our forwards. It also means we give away a lot of possession and put ourselves under way more pressure than necessary. The forward play from midfield isn't crisp enough and in the games where we under perform we consistently do three things: choose square ball options instead of forward passes, play wide balls behind the runner rather than in front of them and inevitably take two or three touches where one is needed.

Up front we are light of one player and the options we do have are under performing. I think the cause there is a mixture of injury, loss of confidence, poor service, inexperience and - certainly in Kamberi's case - the opposition sussing out after his first season that if you give him no space and sit right in top of him he struggles. Look at how many games this season he is receiving the ball with his back to goal - when that is forced on him the only way we will get value from him is if the forward ball is played very early (before the usual two lines of four can form up) and/or if we play him alongside someone who will stick close to him to pick up the knock downs and flicks. Him and Shaw doesn't work.

Beyond all this the injuries have been horrendous and that doesn't help with either shape or trying to consistently press in game to game.

So my January shopping list is for three additions: midfield play maker and a terrier and a younger Kenny Miller type. Those, a settled team and fewer injuries and we finish top six easily and close to, or in, top four. The draws in particular are what is damaging us but I like our next ten games and would expect a heavy points haul from most of them if we can sign what we need.

I'll finish with this thought: you don't sign and develop a midfield like McGinn, McGeouch and Allan overnight or even in one window - look at the signing dates for those three below. It takes time to re-blend it and since we lost all of those three players just four months ago we should expect it to take a while to fix and we need to show patience while we get there.

August 2014 - Dylan McGeouch
July 2015 - John McGinn
January 2018 - Scott Allan

We signed Allan the first time in the same window as McGeouch.

SChibs
30-12-2018, 03:04 PM
I agree. Our midfield last season minus Allan developed over a number of years into the force they were last season. I'm all for giving Lennon time to sort it out but he does need backing in the window.

Every team in the league would struggle if their 3 best players left in the same window.

One Day Soon
30-12-2018, 03:06 PM
We signed Allan the first time in the same window as McGeouch.

I know but the trio really came together properly the second time which is why I chose those signing dates. The point remains that rarely does any manager, anywhere, get the blend right in just one or even two windows.

One Day Soon
30-12-2018, 03:08 PM
I agree. Our midfield last season minus Allan developed over a number of years into the force they were last season. I'm all for giving Lennon time to sort it out but he does need backing in the window.

Every team in the league would struggle if their 3 best players left in the same window.

It's so ****ing obvious that I can only think some people are letting hope triumph over reality in their posting. Or that one or two are just sad undercovers deliberately stirring it.

Hibernia&Alba
30-12-2018, 03:12 PM
A very reasonable post, ODS. However, if we don't sign De Bruyne and Pogba in the transfer window, I won't be back.

we are hibs
30-12-2018, 03:19 PM
I can accept we were probably unlikely to replace those 3 with the same standard of midfielder but it wasn't an impossible task. Lennon had a higher budget to work with in the summer than when all 3 were signed. Even if we didn't replace them to that standard we could have done far better than we have. Slivka could barely get a game last season but now he's a first choice pick? Milligan has been ineffectual and unlikely to improve from what I have seen. Hyndman gets into good areas and buzzes about looking to get on the ball but his end product is not up to much; same goes for Horgan. Mallan is mallan.

Milligan i would imagine is on a decent wage considering we apparently wanted him earlier in the window but couldn't afford him until mcginn left. I don't think we are getting value for money. Mallan cost 150k or whatever it was. I don't think we are getting value for money there. Hyndman came in late as we panicked when the Allan deal collapsed. A risk that hasn't paid off.

AgentDaleCooper
30-12-2018, 03:28 PM
The OP is the best post on here in ages.

Smartie
30-12-2018, 03:30 PM
I'm not sure how much I agree with the patience bit.

You need patience with talented, imperfect youngsters or with great players who have maybe lost their confidence. You might need patience to bed in a new formation, or for foreign players to adapt to a new league.

Lennon created a frontline in one window last January. It wasn't happening for us up front during the first half of the season, we were wasteful in the final third and Lennon decisively changed that. McLaren needed a few weeks to get up to fitness but when he did the pair of them played every week for the rest of the season and they did us and their manager proud.

The problem with our midfield is that I have absolutely no idea what our first choice selection is, I have no idea what our preferred formation is. We've been terrible with the 3-5-2 that served us well last year. We have no strikers that have played as an effective partnership, we don't have any strikers who can play up front on their own. We have a flouncy, poor man's Scott Allan, an American football kicker that is no use in open play and Slivka who has had a few decent performances of late but still too often plays on the periphery of games rather than taking them by the scruff of the neck. We've got wingers we're hell bent on playing anywhere other than on the wing and they're doing the best they can. We've got Bartley and Milligan who have both looked decent at times but have limitations and those limitations mean that without better options further forward they are often made look a lot weaker than they actually are.

It's actually a shambles, and patience is the last thing it needs. It needs someone to acknowledge that this is not working at all and deal with it decisively and early. All the patience in the world isn't going to turn that into a decent unit.

We need Lennon to do what he did last summer - he needs to wheel and deal, improve the glaring deficiencies in our squad and I think we can still have a very good second half to the season. His career cannot afford a failure at Hibs and if he dithers on this one, or is undermined by the board then he might be in trouble. Some decent players may need to be sacrificed, we may need to cut our losses on certain characters in moves that might not be universally popular. Hyndman I quite like, but it's not working for him at Hibs in this team. McLaren doesn't convince me that he's going to be fit to play for anyone other than Australia. Milligan doesn't strike me as an upgrade on Bartley that is deserving of a big wage. Shaw and Allan are youngsters who should be getting occasional time off the bench. Mallan is hopeless in the role he is playing. I'd be trying to loan him out to use his wage elsewhere, or failing that finding a formation that sees him playing off a target man/ pair of strikers.

The biggest danger we have is that anyone at Hibs thinks that patience is the answer. Patience here leads to a finish in 8th or 9th place and leads to the loss of much of the feel good factor that has grown at Hibs in recent years.

And if this is what Hibs have produced when they HAVE money to spend, I hate to think what they'd come up with if they had none.

One Day Soon
30-12-2018, 03:33 PM
I can accept we were probably unlikely to replace those 3 with the same standard of midfielder but it wasn't an impossible task. Lennon had a higher budget to work with in the summer than when all 3 were signed. Even if we didn't replace them to that standard we could have done far better than we have. Slivka could barely get a game last season but now he's a first choice pick? Milligan has been ineffectual and unlikely to improve from what I have seen. Hyndman gets into good areas and buzzes about looking to get on the ball but his end product is not up to much; same goes for Horgan. Mallan is mallan.

Milligan i would imagine is on a decent wage considering we apparently wanted him earlier in the window but couldn't afford him until mcginn left. I don't think we are getting value for money. Mallan cost 150k or whatever it was. I don't think we are getting value for money there. Hyndman came in late as we panicked when the Allan deal collapsed. A risk that hasn't paid off.


Yes, it was an impossible task. And your assertion right there is a big part of the problem we have. If replacing players like those with others of an equally good standard was possible in one window then other clubs with bigger budgets - in particular Rangers and Aberdeen - would be doing it. But they're not. These players are hard to find, hard to sign and even harder to blend.

We don't know what we've got with our current midfielders that you list above for the simple reason that currently they all play as individuals. Without the terrier and playmaker we are missing we won't see the best of the others. If/when we get those we will then see what we have in Slivka, Milligan, Hyndman, Horgan and Mallan - if they are all still here.

One Day Soon
30-12-2018, 03:43 PM
I'm not sure how much I agree with the patience bit.

You need patience with talented, imperfect youngsters or with great players who have maybe lost their confidence. You might need patience to bed in a new formation, or for foreign players to adapt to a new league.

Lennon created a frontline in one window last January. It wasn't happening for us up front during the first half of the season, we were wasteful in the final third and Lennon decisively changed that. McLaren needed a few weeks to get up to fitness but when he did the pair of them played every week for the rest of the season and they did us and their manager proud.

The problem with our midfield is that I have absolutely no idea what our first choice selection is, I have no idea what our preferred formation is. We've been terrible with the 3-5-2 that served us well last year. We have no strikers that have played as an effective partnership, we don't have any strikers who can play up front on their own. We have a flouncy, poor man's Scott Allan, an American football kicker that is no use in open play and Slivka who has had a few decent performances of late but still too often plays on the periphery of games rather than taking them by the scruff of the neck. We've got wingers we're hell bent on playing anywhere other than on the wing and they're doing the best they can. We've got Bartley and Milligan who have both looked decent at times but have limitations and those limitations mean that without better options further forward they are often made look a lot weaker than they actually are.

It's actually a shambles, and patience is the last thing it needs. It needs someone to acknowledge that this is not working at all and deal with it decisively and early. All the patience in the world isn't going to turn that into a decent unit.

We need Lennon to do what he did last summer - he needs to wheel and deal, improve the glaring deficiencies in our squad and I think we can still have a very good second half to the season. His career cannot afford a failure at Hibs and if he dithers on this one, or is undermined by the board then he might be in trouble. Some decent players may need to be sacrificed, we may need to cut our losses on certain characters in moves that might not be universally popular. Hyndman I quite like, but it's not working for him at Hibs in this team. McLaren doesn't convince me that he's going to be fit to play for anyone other than Australia. Milligan doesn't strike me as an upgrade on Bartley that is deserving of a big wage. Shaw and Allan are youngsters who should be getting occasional time off the bench. Mallan is hopeless in the role he is playing. I'd be trying to loan him out to use his wage elsewhere, or failing that finding a formation that sees him playing off a target man/ pair of strikers.

The biggest danger we have is that anyone at Hibs thinks that patience is the answer. Patience here leads to a finish in 8th or 9th place and leads to the loss of much of the feel good factor that has grown at Hibs in recent years.

And if this is what Hibs have produced when they HAVE money to spend, I hate to think what they'd come up with if they had none.


No, the biggest danger here is impatience. Sacking Lennon, impulse buying, throwing any January signings at it to appease the impatient.

Lennon is more than capable of sorting this. You're right that his signings of Kamberi and Maclaren last season fixed our front line so he clearly can pick a player. What we are missing now is much harder to replace and it will take patience on our part while he does it. Or alternatively we can embark on what some posters clearly want: sack the manager, start all over again with a squad clearout and choose the inevitably short-sighted path of confusing activity with achievement.

blackpoolhibs
30-12-2018, 03:45 PM
I can accept we were probably unlikely to replace those 3 with the same standard of midfielder but it wasn't an impossible task.

So it was not impossible, but unlikely, thanks for that beautiful piece of insight. :confused:

Diclonius
30-12-2018, 03:48 PM
We've scored 0 goals against Hearts in three hours since they left.

Would they think that's acceptable or would they break the ****ing bank to get a good midfield back? I think I know.

Also "but administration" isn't an answer because they're still here.

we are hibs
30-12-2018, 03:49 PM
So it was not impossible, but unlikely, thanks for that beautiful piece of insight. :confused:

Why are you trying to be a smart arse? Do you think you're amusing? How about debating my point instead of your usual tediously boring digs.

blackpoolhibs
30-12-2018, 03:51 PM
Why are you trying to be a smart arse? Do you think you're amusing? How about debating my point instead of your usual tediously boring digs.

You dont do debate, you just think we are pish and thats that.

One Day Soon
30-12-2018, 03:55 PM
We've scored 0 goals against Hearts in three hours since they left.

Would they think that's acceptable or would they break the ****ing bank to get a good midfield back? I think I know.

Also "but administration" isn't an answer because they're still here.


Haven't they tried to do just that with their supermarket spree and ended up with a pretty average midfield? And that's despite Levein being in charge of their signings for, what, four and a half years? Not so easy as it sounds.

Swedish hibee
30-12-2018, 03:55 PM
Football fans and patience? Never!

we are hibs
30-12-2018, 03:56 PM
Yes, it was an impossible task. And your assertion right there is a big part of the problem we have. If replacing players like those with others of an equally good standard was possible in one window then other clubs with bigger budgets - in particular Rangers and Aberdeen - would be doing it. But they're not. These players are hard to find, hard to sign and even harder to blend.

We don't know what we've got with our current midfielders that you list above for the simple reason that currently they all play as individuals. Without the terrier and playmaker we are missing we won't see the best of the others. If/when we get those we will then see what we have in Slivka, Milligan, Hyndman, Horgan and Mallan - if they are all still here.

If it was impossible how did we end up with all 3 in the first place? None of this midfield will reach the levels of any those 3 players. Never said it would be easy but do you seriously think slivka, Milligan, Mallan are going to be here in 3 or 4 years time? They don't have the same levels of consistency the other 3 did when they first arrived. Individually and collectively. As for patience hibs fans have put up with a lot this season and you still get crowds of over 16k every home game. They've been more than patient. Time for the players, manager and club to repay the support and get us up the league because our position and performances so far this season haven't been good enough.

Say we bring in a midfielder with dig alongside Scott allan; how is that all of a sudden raise mallan's performances for example? He's still going to lack mobility, He's still going to go missing when it gets tough. It's all well and good him getting his foot on the ball and getting time to play these world cup 40 yard switches but as soon as someone pressures him he panics and doesn't know what to do. Why would that change with 2 different midfielders beside him?

Smartie
30-12-2018, 03:58 PM
No, the biggest danger here is impatience. Sacking Lennon, impulse buying, throwing any January signings at it to appease the impatient.

Lennon is more than capable of sorting this. You're right that his signings of Kamberi and Maclaren last season fixed our front line so he clearly can pick a player. What we are missing now is much harder to replace and it will take patience on our part while he does it. Or alternatively we can embark on what some posters clearly want: sack the manager, start all over again with a squad clearout and choose the inevitably short-sighted path of confusing activity with achievement.

I'm not suggesting doing anything rash to appease the impatient. I'm a huge Lennon fan, talk of sacking him is insanity and I agree that impulse buying to appease anyone is not the answer.

I agree that Lennon is capable of sorting this, but he doesn't sort this by being patient. He needs to be in his office today, tomorrow and as often as he can over the next few weeks to get this sorted. He needs to take a call on several of the players HE signed and decide whether or not he can trust these players to cut it during the second half of this season.

I agree with both yourself and Neil Lennon that about a half to 2/3 of the team is fine. The rest of it is nowhere near fine and it's not going to improve with patience.

An impulse buy is different to an early acquisition of a much-needed player. People were suggesting that we needed to be patient with Alex Harris. Stubbs sent him out on loan in exchange for Martin Boyle. One of them is now playing for his country whilst the other is kicking around at York City with a failed spell at Falkirk in between. We were badly needing pace in that side, and instead of being patient with someone who it was becoming clear was not going to make it, he brought in someone who gave us not just an instant lift but that with a bit of patience went on to become one of our most important players.

We don't need to start from scratch, but we need the man entrusted with the job to deal with a glaring deficiency swiftly and effectively, without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

we are hibs
30-12-2018, 03:59 PM
You dont do debate, you just think we are pish and thats that.

No I don't. And i say what I think and I'm open to debating it if people think otherwise. Unfortunately posters like you just want to get personal and be smart.

One Day Soon
30-12-2018, 04:03 PM
If it was impossible how did we end up with all 3 in the first place? None of this midfield will reach the levels of any those 3 players. Never said it would be easy but do you seriously think slivka, Milligan, Mallan are going to be here in 3 or 4 years time? They don't have the same levels of consistency the other 3 did when they first arrived. Individually and collectively. As for patience hibs fans have put up with a lot this season and you still get crowds of over 16k every home game. They've been more than patient. Time for the players, manager and club to repay the support and get us up the league because our position and performances so far this season haven't been good enough.

Say we bring in a midfielder with dig alongside Scott allan; how is that all of a sudden raise mallan's performances for example? He's still going to lack mobility, He's still going to go missing when it gets tough. It's all well and good him getting his foot on the ball and getting time to play these world cup 40 yard switches but as soon as someone pressures him he panics and doesn't know what to do. Why would that change with 2 different midfielders beside him?


We ended up with all three in the first place with a series of signings (both successes and failures) over 4 years - that's four years. Or to put it another way, eight transfer windows, not one. So your assertion that we have been more than patient over literally half a season is frankly ludicrous.

If you don't understand how one player can make a difference to all the players around him then you ought to go and study Hibs playing with and without Stanton, Sauzee and McGinn in their respective eras.

eastmainsmsh
30-12-2018, 04:03 PM
The money for SJM should’ve went straight in to Lennons Budget in an ideal world

One Day Soon
30-12-2018, 04:06 PM
I'm not suggesting doing anything rash to appease the impatient. I'm a huge Lennon fan, talk of sacking him is insanity and I agree that impulse buying to appease anyone is not the answer.

I agree that Lennon is capable of sorting this, but he doesn't sort this by being patient. He needs to be in his office today, tomorrow and as often as he can over the next few weeks to get this sorted. He needs to take a call on several of the players HE signed and decide whether or not he can trust these players to cut it during the second half of this season.

I agree with both yourself and Neil Lennon that about a half to 2/3 of the team is fine. The rest of it is nowhere near fine and it's not going to improve with patience.

An impulse buy is different to an early acquisition of a much-needed player. People were suggesting that we needed to be patient with Alex Harris. Stubbs sent him out on loan in exchange for Martin Boyle. One of them is now playing for his country whilst the other is kicking around at York City with a failed spell at Falkirk in between. We were badly needing pace in that side, and instead of being patient with someone who it was becoming clear was not going to make it, he brought in someone who gave us not just an instant lift but that with a bit of patience went on to become one of our most important players.

We don't need to start from scratch, but we need the man entrusted with the job to deal with a glaring deficiency swiftly and effectively, without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Yup, I think we're in exactly the same place here Smartie. Actually I think Lennon is too judging by yesterday's post match interview. Whatever criticisms can be made of him it seems to me that he just won't tolerate under performance and I'd expect him to be pretty ruthless in January and then again in the summer.

One Day Soon
30-12-2018, 04:09 PM
The money for SJM should’ve went straight in to Lennons Budget in an ideal world

His sale came too late in the window, I don't think Villa were able to pay it all up front anyway and that tool at Celtic threw his toys out the pram on Scott Allan because he didn't get McGinn for sweeties.

I'd expect to see related activity in January and the Summer.

we are hibs
30-12-2018, 04:14 PM
We ended up with all three in the first place with a series of signings (both successes and failures) over 4 years - that's four years. Or to put it another way, eight transfer windows, not one. So your assertion that we have been more than patient over literally half a season is frankly ludicrous.

If you don't understand how one player can make a difference to all the players around him then you ought to go and study Hibs playing with and without Stanton, Sauzee and McGinn in their respective eras.


Lennon has had 5 windows. How many midfielders has he brought in that are either equal to or close to those 3? The fact people think hibs fans are impatient is ludicrous. We sat through years of mediocrity and utter dross yet we are still here. It was torture. We don't want to go back there but the signs are there that it's happening again (best players being sold and not replaced well enough, bottom 6, not winning the bigger games as often) this is meant to be a new hibs, a hibs that's learned from their mistakes with people who apparently know what they're doing running the club and footballing side.

MWHIBBIES
30-12-2018, 04:22 PM
In 3 windows Stubbs signed McGinn, McGeouch, Henderson, Fyvie, Bartley and Allan.

In 5 windows Lennon has signed Mallan, Milligan, Slivka, Hyndman, Shinnie, Allan.


Allans quality was already known to us and Slivka was identified by the recruitment team (Lennon said this). In my opinion those are the best 2 midfielders signed during Lennons time.

Patience is required but better signings from our manager are also required.

One Day Soon
30-12-2018, 04:23 PM
Lennon has had 5 windows. How many midfielders has he brought in that are either equal to or close to those 3? The fact people think hibs fans are impatient is ludicrous. We sat through years of mediocrity and utter dross yet we are still here. It was torture. We don't want to go back there but the signs are there that it's happening again (best players being sold and not replaced well enough, bottom 6, not winning the bigger games as often) this is meant to be a new hibs, a hibs that's learned from their mistakes with people who apparently know what they're doing running the club and footballing side.


How many windows has he had since losing McGeouch, McGinn, Allan?

If you think four months is patience you have lost the plot utterly.

One Day Soon
30-12-2018, 04:26 PM
In 3 windows Stubbs signed McGinn, McGeouch, Henderson, Fyvie, Bartley and Allan.

In 5 windows Lennon has signed Mallan, Milligan, Slivka, Hyndman, Shinnie, Allan.


Allans quality was already known to us and Slivka was identified by the recruitment team (Lennon said this). In my opinion those are the best 2 midfielders signed during Lennons time.

Patience is required but better signings from our manager are also required.


All true but the key point is that for four of those five windows he wasn't needing or trying to sign replacements for McGeouch, McGinn and Allan. So we don't yet know what he'll be capable of finding in the next two or three windows.

Smartie
30-12-2018, 04:30 PM
In 3 windows Stubbs signed McGinn, McGeouch, Henderson, Fyvie, Bartley and Allan.

In 5 windows Lennon has signed Mallan, Milligan, Slivka, Hyndman, Shinnie, Allan.


Allans quality was already known to us and Slivka was identified by the recruitment team (Lennon said this). In my opinion those are the best 2 midfielders signed during Lennons time.

Patience is required but better signings from our manager are also required.

I'm willing to give Lennon the benefit of the doubt on this one.

The midfield he had when he arrived was superb, so all he really needed to do was add a little bit here or there to what he had, which he managed to do. He didn't do anything silly or rash by attempting to rebuild a part of the team that didn't need rebuilding (at the time).

Because they were so good I think he possibly naively waited a little bit too long for a decision from McGeouch when he could have been sourcing a proper replacement. The move from Villa for SJM came unfortunately late for us, so once we knew exactly how much money we had we didn't have much time.

The one thing that Sunderland documentary showed me was how hard it can actually be to sign players, and what you have to do to get that signing over the line.

There is no doubt that what we ended up with was woefully inadequate and it needs addressed now.

The Modfather
30-12-2018, 04:35 PM
In 3 windows Stubbs signed McGinn, McGeouch, Henderson, Fyvie, Bartley and Allan.

In 5 windows Lennon has signed Mallan, Milligan, Slivka, Hyndman, Shinnie, Allan.


Allans quality was already known to us and Slivka was identified by the recruitment team (Lennon said this). In my opinion those are the best 2 midfielders signed during Lennons time.

Patience is required but better signings from our manager are also required.

Good post. We have crowed about the recruitment strategy and set up in the club over the last few years. With the club having talked up the fact they have succession plans in place for managers and players. Of course it’s not as simple as having x player named as player x’s replacement and just going out and signing them.

I didn’t see much evidence of the succession planning or strategy in the summer. IMO, we have only had one truly successful window under Lennon, last January and that far exceeded all expectations. The other windows have seen us, allegedly, saving money for the post promotion season, or major surgery in January needed to correct the summer window failings. Even the January window last year we were offered Kamberi & McLaren by agents and Allan was a known quantity.

IMO the recruitment team have been living off the success of the Stubbs era for too long and it’s time for them to step up and spend our money a lot better or for Dempster to make whatever changes in recruitment are needed.

H18 SFR
30-12-2018, 04:48 PM
I think the recruitment setup is likely strong and functioning well. For me it's something simpler along the lines of not actually being able to afford the quality of player we want and need within our wage budget.

calumhibee1
30-12-2018, 04:50 PM
It's so ****ing obvious that I can only think some people are letting hope triumph over reality in their posting. Or that one or two are just sad undercovers deliberately stirring it.

Nobody is expecting replacements of the ability of the guys that left (although I think we’re all hoping Allan will return). But the current crop of midfielders we have are bottom end Scottish Premiership players. That’s why we’re languishing in the bottom half even though we’ve got a better defence than most teams, better keeper(s) than most teams and one better striker than most teams. People want better than that, nobody is asking for John McGinn 2018 level replacements though.

hibsbollah
30-12-2018, 04:59 PM
I'm willing to give Lennon the benefit of the doubt on this one.

The midfield he had when he arrived was superb, so all he really needed to do was add a little bit here or there to what he had, which he managed to do. He didn't do anything silly or rash by attempting to rebuild a part of the team that didn't need rebuilding (at the time).

Because they were so good I think he possibly naively waited a little bit too long for a decision from McGeouch when he could have been sourcing a proper replacement. The move from Villa for SJM came unfortunately late for us, so once we knew exactly how much money we had we didn't have much time.

The one thing that Sunderland documentary showed me was how hard it can actually be to sign players, and what you have to do to get that signing over the line.

There is no doubt that what we ended up with was woefully inadequate and it needs addressed now.

The Sunderland example tells you very little imo. Martin Bain was being lied to every step of the way by the owner, who clearly wasn't sanctioning any purchase at all. Im sure buying a player in the window is tricky, but that program showed a genuinely impossible scenario! Scrambling around after Ross McCormack...dear oh dear.

Otherwise I agree with your post.

I'd like to see a proper January dive into the market for three quality midfielders or strikers. Speculate to accumulate. Failing that, may as promote more of the kids for the rest of the season, take the hit in terms of falling attendances but see a new generation of youngsters get a chance. We're probably safe from Relegation after all. The third option, a half-hearted attempt at signing cheap Hyndmans or Milligan types to stop the rot, would be the worst option.

At this point, Dempster needs to show us some balls.

One Day Soon
30-12-2018, 05:01 PM
Nobody is expecting replacements of the ability of the guys that left (although I think we’re all hoping Allan will return). But the current crop of midfielders we have are bottom end Scottish Premiership players. That’s why we’re languishing in the bottom half even though we’ve got a better defence than most teams, better keeper(s) than most teams and one better striker than most teams. People want better than that, nobody is asking for John McGinn 2018 level replacements though.

My point is that they should be, just not in one or two windows.

Onion
30-12-2018, 05:12 PM
No one expected us to replace the best midfield in Scotland in one go, but - given the money we got for SJM, uplift in ST sales, and the notice we got about SJM going - it was reasonable to expect Lennon and Hibs to replace at LEAST one of those with similar quality.

As it is, Lennon has managed to match NONE of them within similar quality. Slivka was never good enough for a first team place, Mallan is a poser, Hogan is a nearly man. All of them hide for long spells in games, an accusation that could never be aimed at any of the McGill, Allan, McGeough trio. Is it any wonder we're eighth in the league with such inferior players and such poor balance to the team ?

The Hibs Board have got a HUGE decision to make in January - give Lennon the money he wants to try make a difference, or hold it back in the knowledge that it might well be wasted on more poor signings.

Lennon is in last chance saloon. Balls this up and his managerial career is over.

Just watched the 2016 Cup final over again. The contrast between the balance, effort, quality and ability of that side (only 2 year ago) to the current team is stark indeed - despite the money that's been available to Lennon and Hibs.

One Day Soon
30-12-2018, 05:19 PM
No one expected us to replace the best midfield in Scotland in one go, but - given the money we got for SJM, uplift in ST sales, and the notice we got about SJM going - it was reasonable to expect Lennon and Hibs to replace at LEAST one of those with similar quality.

As it is, Lennon has managed to match NONE of them within similar quality. Slivka was never good enough for a first team place, Mallan is a poser, Hogan is a nearly man. All of them hide for long spells in games, an accusation that could never be aimed at any of the McGill, Allan, McGeough trio. Is it any wonder we're eighth in the league with such inferior players and such poor balance to the team ?

The Hibs Board have got a HUGE decision to make in January - give Lennon the money he wants to try make a difference, or hold it back in the knowledge that it might well be wasted on more poor signings.

Lennon is in last chance saloon. Balls this up and his managerial career is over.

Just watched the 2016 Cup final over again. The contrast between the balance, effort, quality and ability of that side (only 2 year ago) to the current team is star indeed - despite the money that's been available to Lennon and Hibs.


I repeat, it is just four months since that midfield left en masse.

And McGinn's departure was both far from certain and too late in the window to know that a) it would definitely happen, b) the funds from it would be available to buy and c) any first order targets we wanted would actually be available at that stage.

This will take two or three windows to fully fix, regardless of whether that job is being done by Lennon or someone else.

matty_f
30-12-2018, 05:25 PM
Has anyone seen the Sunderland documentary on Netflix?

I'm two episodes in and they've just had to deal with the transfer window, the manager is getting frustrated that it's hard to get players he needs with their budget (significantly higher than ours) and points out that all the clubs are after the same sort of player within the price range.

It's not easy for any club to just go as sign whatever player they want and the reality is that for Scottish clubs it's very hard to get players that are substantially better than the ones being signed by their rivals.

I think people live in a fantasy world sometimes, either blissfully ignorant of willingly dismissive of the challenges football clubs in Scotland face. Football Manager and FIFA don't help things, and I suppose it's hard for some who watched Hibs at a time when there was nothing between Scottish and English football to accept that we're way down the list of clubs players want to sign for, but that's where we are.

Transfers at our level are a risk, we've been unlucky with injuries that means or transfer activity in the summer looks worse than it might have done had everyone stayed fit and available.
Replacing the players that left is a very tough challenge, we can't bring in like for like so we need to develop potential again, and that takes time and patience.

B.H.F.C
30-12-2018, 05:25 PM
It was pretty much impossible to replace the quality we lost in the middle of the park.

I thought we’d have to try and play a bit differently and when we went out and signed two wingers, in addition to Boyle already being here, I thought it looked like we were going to go with pace out wide. However, we’ve very rarely set up that way. Agyepong has been constantly injured, Horgan has been played centrally and Boyle has spent a lot of time up front or as a wing back.

I don’t think Lennon has ever had a clear plan of what he wants to do and how he wants to play. I still think there are players there that, individually, are decent players and can be better than what they’ve shown so far. There was just no real thought as to how they were going to fit together though, IMO.

Pretty Boy
30-12-2018, 05:32 PM
I think Hibs have in many ways made a rod (no pun intended) for their own back with some of the 'spin' we have put on our recruitment strategy.

One of the flagship policies was we would have a converyer belt of talent and '2 near equal players for every position'. That was said to eliminate the damaging impact of losing players which is an inevitable part of life at a club like Hibs. Now I'm doing a bit paraphrasing there and I realise the notion was always fanciful when finite budgets are involved but when we have struggles like this in the short term it's leaving a bit of an open goal if folk want to have a pop.

judas
30-12-2018, 06:54 PM
My own view is that Allan is a decent player who could make a small difference. But he is nothing like the messiah some on here would have you believe.

Fergos
30-12-2018, 06:58 PM
I think Hibs have in many ways made a rod (no pun intended) for their own back with some of the 'spin' we have put on our recruitment strategy.

One of the flagship policies was we would have a converyer belt of talent and '2 near equal players for every position'. That was said to eliminate the damaging impact of losing players which is an inevitable part of life at a club like Hibs. Now I'm doing a bit paraphrasing there and I realise the notion was always fanciful when finite budgets are involved but when we have struggles like this in the short term it's leaving a bit of an open goal if folk want to have a pop.

Agree with your posts PB, the recruitment process seems to have ignored the need for succession planning, we knew Allan, Dylan and SJM would be going, where was the planning?

The Hibs support didn’t expect to replace like for like but we did expect to recruit better than what we have. I do have a feeling that NLs been let down by some of what on paper look like decent players. His signings mainly fall into 2 brackets, injured or under-performing.

We need a productive January but I’m not confident we will find first team starters during this window, or not as many as we need anyway.

GGTTH

houstonhibbee
30-12-2018, 07:00 PM
My own view is that Allan is a decent player who could make a small difference. But he is nothing like the messiah some on here would have you believe.
No he is not the messiah and can’t work miracles but he is an extraordinary and skillful player, not just decent.

noz
30-12-2018, 07:09 PM
I always remember Howard Wilkinson said he had the ‘perfect midfield’
You need a passer -McCallister, tackler -Batty, runner -Strachan and scorer -Speed.
We had pretty much all bases covered last season.
However, you could argue we have the passer (Mallan) and tackler (Bartley/Milligan) but it stops there. No-one chipping in with goals and no energy.

Rick Rude
30-12-2018, 08:04 PM
Teams like st johnstone and Livingston are currently competing better than us without that midfield either and theyre doing it on a fraction of the budget. For some reason we only seem to be able to have a decent season with 2 or 3 exceptional players. Other teams manage it with teams full of average players. Soon as those players leave us we drop like a stone. Same thing happened when Latapy/Sauzee left, same thing happened when Brown/Riordan/O'Connor left. Is it just refusal/unable to change the way we play to suit the players we still have?

B.H.F.C
30-12-2018, 09:29 PM
Teams like st johnstone and Livingston are currently competing better than us without that midfield either and theyre doing it on a fraction of the budget. For some reason we only seem to be able to have a decent season with 2 or 3 exceptional players. Other teams manage it with teams full of average players. Soon as those players leave us we drop like a stone. Same thing happened when Latapy/Sauzee left, same thing happened when Brown/Riordan/O'Connor left. Is it just refusal/unable to change the way we play to suit the players we still have?

The difference with the teams that you mention is that above all else, IMO, they are a team. All too often we have a collection of individuals. We had a proper team spirit for a couple of years, had a bit success, and since that was split up we’re back to having a collection of individuals.

St Johnstone since they got promoted 7 or 8 years ago have been consistently good. Mainly with ‘unfashionable’ players who look poor on paper. Livingston are the same this season. But they work hard for each other every single week and that makes up for the lack of quality, nice training grounds etc. I don’t think some players realise how lucky they are to be at Hibs at times and take it for granted. There aren’t that many of them leave and go to a better club.

The 90+2
30-12-2018, 09:30 PM
We replaced them with utter pap knowing they where leaving? Let’s be patient falling into the bottom six knowing fine we’ll crowds will be down next season? No I would rather address the situation rather than accuse others of being bed wetters or undercover hearts fans. Same concerns got raised after Mowbray left and players got replaced with similar pap. Look how it all ended.

truehibernian
30-12-2018, 09:59 PM
My own view is that Allan is a decent player who could make a small difference. But he is nothing like the messiah some on here would have you believe.

SA is a quality midfielder and whilst not the answer to all our problems, his creativity and willingness to control the football under pressure and drive into the opposition half is what’s missing. What’s also missing is a left sided winger with Barker like pace to really stretch defences and fullbacks.

My huge worry is Efe going which I think is a very real possibility looking at his reaction and demeanour post match yesterday. He’d be very difficult to replace. He was quality last night and has been a very good player for Hibs.

I’d like us to test Dundee’s Will and go for Cammy Kerr and also The Rangers and bid for Ryan Hardie. Both good, talented young players.

One Day Soon
30-12-2018, 10:03 PM
We replaced them with utter pap knowing they where leaving? Let’s be patient falling into the bottom six knowing fine we’ll crowds will be down next season? No I would rather address the situation rather than accuse others of being bed wetters or undercover hearts fans. Same concerns got raised after Mowbray left and players got replaced with similar pap. Look how it all ended.


No, we didn't know they were leaving. A lot of time and energy went into trying to hold on to all three in fact. They left just four months ago and we've had one window so far to start replacing them.

I'm pretty sure we can simultaneously have Neil Lennon and the club getting on with addressing the situation over the next couple of windows at the same time as we can have bedwetters, undercover Hearts fans and concerned Hibs fans posting on here because .net threads are not actually driving signing policy.

The 90+2
30-12-2018, 10:13 PM
No, we didn't know they were leaving. A lot of time and energy went into trying to hold on to all three in fact. They left just four months ago and we've had one window so far to start replacing them.

I'm pretty sure we can simultaneously have Neil Lennon and the club getting on with addressing the situation over the next couple of windows at the same time as we can have bedwetters, undercover Hearts fans and concerned Hibs fans posting on here because .net threads are not actually driving signing policy.

Every man and their mut knew both where leaving.

HFC 0-7
30-12-2018, 10:20 PM
How many windows has he had since losing McGeouch, McGinn, Allan?

If you think four months is patience you have lost the plot utterly.

We all knew Mcginn would go and that Allan would go back to Celtic. We also knew there was a good chance that McGeouch would go as well. If we never expected these players to go then I can see the point about patience. It looks to me that we never prepared or prepared poorly to replace these players. The players that have been brought in are not cutting it, some not even getting a sniff at playing. If all the teams around us struggle to replace players then I can see the point of being patient but our current form and league position has us behind teams with smaller budgets and that have had to bring in players that have settled and brought in more points. The goodwill of the fans is wavering, the uptake in season ticket sales off the back of the Scottish cup win, promotion and Europe will dwindle quick if yesterday’s standard of performance and entertainment continue. As much as everyone scoffed at hearts transfer policy in the summer, comparing it to the Fenlon era, they knew they had to rebuild and they did so. We cannot hide behind us losing three players as a reason for sitting in the league where we are at the moment, we may not be able to replace like for like, but we should be able to replace them with players capable of being ahead of the likes of Livingston, challenging hearts and creating chances.

One Day Soon
30-12-2018, 10:21 PM
Every man and their mut knew both where leaving.


No, they didn't. In fact right up until Villa ponied up at the eleventh hour it looked like McGinn would still be with us this season because Celtic were trying and failing to get him on the cheap. Scott Allan was a stick-on to sign for us until Lawwell spiked it after making a fool of himself in losing McGinn. Dylan was the most ambiguous of the three.

You'd better steel yourself because it doesn't matter who the manager is, its going to take another couple of windows - at the minimum - to get remotely near the quality of midfield we had previously.

Diclonius
30-12-2018, 10:24 PM
Haven't they tried to do just that with their supermarket spree and ended up with a pretty average midfield? And that's despite Levein being in charge of their signings for, what, four and a half years? Not so easy as it sounds.

Their average midfield has them comfortably top six (and seven ahead of us) and one of their average midfielders scored the winner against us yesterday. This from a considerably worse position than us in pre-season and without the McGinn money. I'd take that as a start.

HFC 0-7
30-12-2018, 10:27 PM
No, they didn't. In fact right up until Villa ponied up at the eleventh hour it looked like McGinn would still be with us this season because Celtic were trying and failing to get him on the cheap. Scott Allan was a stick-on to sign for us until Lawwell spiked it after making a fool of himself in losing McGinn. Dylan was the most ambiguous of the three.

You'd better steel yourself because it doesn't matter who the manager is, its going to take another couple of windows - at the minimum - to get remotely near the quality of midfield we had previously.

Everyone knew there would be a good chance of mcginn going, in fact there would have been a lot of people thinking he was going the previous window. The club should have been preparing for him going, if hibs didn’t think he was going then they are mental. He is a top players who, IMO, could have signed for any championship team.

One Day Soon
30-12-2018, 10:30 PM
We all knew Mcginn would go and that Allan would go back to Celtic. We also knew there was a good chance that McGeouch would go as well. If we never expected these players to go then I can see the point about patience. It looks to me that we never prepared or prepared poorly to replace these players. The players that have been brought in are not cutting it, some not even getting a sniff at playing. If all the teams around us struggle to replace players then I can see the point of being patient but our current form and league position has us behind teams with smaller budgets and that have had to bring in players that have settled and brought in more points. The goodwill of the fans is wavering, the uptake in season ticket sales off the back of the Scottish cup win, promotion and Europe will dwindle quick if yesterday’s standard of performance and entertainment continue. As much as everyone scoffed at hearts transfer policy in the summer, comparing it to the Fenlon era, they knew they had to rebuild and they did so. We cannot hide behind us losing three players as a reason for sitting in the league where we are at the moment, we may not be able to replace like for like, but we should be able to replace them with players capable of being ahead of the likes of Livingston, challenging hearts and creating chances.

It took four years and eight windows to build the McGeouch, McGinn and Allan midfield we just lost. That cannot be successfully replaced in one window.

The Hearts rebuilding which you laud (signing in bulk and hoping to hit something) is so 'successful' that they are just 7 points ahead of us with half the season still to go.

Jonnyboy
30-12-2018, 10:33 PM
Teams like st johnstone and Livingston are currently competing better than us without that midfield either and theyre doing it on a fraction of the budget. For some reason we only seem to be able to have a decent season with 2 or 3 exceptional players. Other teams manage it with teams full of average players. Soon as those players leave us we drop like a stone. Same thing happened when Latapy/Sauzee left, same thing happened when Brown/Riordan/O'Connor left. Is it just refusal/unable to change the way we play to suit the players we still have?

There's an amount of irony in St. Johnstone's 'success' given that two of their regular midfield players were widely thought to be not good enough for Hibs

One Day Soon
30-12-2018, 10:34 PM
Their average midfield has them comfortably top six (and seven ahead of us) and one of their average midfielders scored the winner against us yesterday. This from a considerably worse position than us in pre-season and without the McGinn money. I'd take that as a start.

I don' think we had the McGinn money to spend in the last window and they didn't face what we did in the summer - losing the best midfield in Scotland all in one go.

HFC 0-7
30-12-2018, 10:34 PM
I repeat, it is just four months since that midfield left en masse.

And McGinn's departure was both far from certain and too late in the window to know that a) it would definitely happen, b) the funds from it would be available to buy and c) any first order targets we wanted would actually be available at that stage.

This will take two or three windows to fully fix, regardless of whether that job is being done by Lennon or someone else.

I think you are expecting a couple of transfer windows to replace like for like. What is your thoughts behind the transfers we did make? My opinion is that we are very unbalanced, we have too many players of the same type and too many players that are simply not good enough. Lennon is blaming the forwards and publicly singling them out, whilst the midfield doesn’t really get a mention. That to me is a worry, we can have amazing forwards but with the service they will not deliver goals. Should we patient if we expect the manager to focus on positions which are not the most vital?

Fergos
30-12-2018, 10:36 PM
No, they didn't. In fact right up until Villa ponied up at the eleventh hour it looked like McGinn would still be with us this season because Celtic were trying and failing to get him on the cheap. Scott Allan was a stick-on to sign for us until Lawwell spiked it after making a fool of himself in losing McGinn. Dylan was the most ambiguous of the three.

You'd better steel yourself because it doesn't matter who the manager is, its going to take another couple of windows - at the minimum - to get remotely near the quality of midfield we had previously.

I don’t know what goes on behind the scenes but even if we as a club were unsure about the immediate futures of SJM / Dylan we should still have had a decent plan, especially as the players concerned were the cornerstone of the side at the time.

Take your point ODS on it taking time to rebuild, just feel we could have done a bit better over last summer.

GGTTH

One Day Soon
30-12-2018, 10:37 PM
Everyone knew there would be a good chance of mcginn going, in fact there would have been a lot of people thinking he was going the previous window. The club should have been preparing for him going, if hibs didn’t think he was going then they are mental. He is a top players who, IMO, could have signed for any championship team.

Yes, but it wasn't clear he was leaving until the very end of the window at which point I don't believe we had either the money or the time to be able to get a replacement. What were we supposed to do, sign his replacement early on just in case?

HFC 0-7
30-12-2018, 10:43 PM
It took four years and eight windows to build the McGeouch, McGinn and Allan midfield we just lost. That cannot be successfully replaced in one window.

The Hearts rebuilding which you laud (signing in bulk and hoping to hit something) is so 'successful' that they are just 7 points ahead of us with half the season still to go.

It can be successfully replaced, not like for like, but replaced to be above Livingston, st Johnstone etc. I am not lauding hearts policy just showing that teams can! Hearts are closer to the top of the league than we are to them. You are scratching around for reasons now if you think it’s ok to be in the position we are and that 7 points isn’t significant at this stage. It takes us 4 or 5 games to get 7 points! Lennon himself isn’t happy, why should we? Have the signings he has made given you enough confidence that he can sign the right players?

One Day Soon
30-12-2018, 10:43 PM
I think you are expecting a couple of transfer windows to replace like for like. What is your thoughts behind the transfers we did make? My opinion is that we are very unbalanced, we have too many players of the same type and too many players that are simply not good enough. Lennon is blaming the forwards and publicly singling them out, whilst the midfield doesn’t really get a mention. That to me is a worry, we can have amazing forwards but with the service they will not deliver goals. Should we patient if we expect the manager to focus on positions which are not the most vital?

In fact I think it will take more than two windows.

As I said at the start of the thread:
"In midfield we have a lot of choices - the problem is that they are very, very similar. The players we have to pick from there would be okay if we also had a genuine play maker (it doesn't have to be Scott Allan but it needs him or someone like him) and a terrier. As we have neither of these it means we don't get enough defensive cover from the midfield and we also don't get enough structured play on the ground from the midfield to our forwards. It also means we give away a lot of possession and put ourselves under way more pressure than necessary. The forward play from midfield isn't crisp enough and in the games where we under perform we consistently do three things: choose square ball options instead of forward passes, play wide balls behind the runner rather than in front of them and inevitably take two or three touches where one is needed."

As to what Lennon is saying in public, I'd prefer whichever clubs he is going to talk to about midfielders are reading public statements about us needing forwards rather than the midfielders we want to pry away from them.

HFC 0-7
30-12-2018, 10:44 PM
Yes, but it wasn't clear he was leaving until the very end of the window at which point I don't believe we had either the money or the time to be able to get a replacement. What were we supposed to do, sign his replacement early on just in case?

They should have been prepared, it was likely he would go. As I have said and others no one expected a player of the same Calibre to come in straight away, we did expect them to be better than what’s came in.

One Day Soon
30-12-2018, 10:50 PM
It can be successfully replaced, not like for like, but replaced to be above Livingston, st Johnstone etc. I am not lauding hearts policy just showing that teams can! Hearts are closer to the top of the league than we are to them. You are scratching around for reasons now if you think it’s ok to be in the position we are and that 7 points isn’t significant at this stage. It takes us 4 or 5 games to get 7 points! Lennon himself isn’t happy, why should we? Have the signings he has made given you enough confidence that he can sign the right players?

My views on this are in the OP.

One Day Soon
30-12-2018, 10:50 PM
They should have been prepared, it was likely he would go. As I have said and others no one expected a player of the same Calibre to come in straight away, we did expect them to be better than what’s came in.

As i said previously, what were we supposed to do, sign his replacement early on just in case?

The Modfather
30-12-2018, 10:57 PM
As i said previously, what were we supposed to do, sign his replacement early on just in case?

Who is his replacement? Genuine question. I can’t work out who we thought would replace his energy and drive, Horgan maybe? Although that would then mean we intended to only have Boyle and Agyepong as the only wingers in the squad.

If we intended to play a different style in midfield I still don’t really know what it is.

One Day Soon
30-12-2018, 11:00 PM
Who is his replacement? Genuine question. I can’t work out who we thought would replace his energy and drive, Horgan maybe? Although that would then mean we intended to only have Boyle and Agyepong as the only wingers in the squad.

If we intended to play a different style in midfield I still don’t really know what it is.

We don't have one yet, partly because there wasn't time at the end of the window after McGinn was gone to get one and partly because even with time these players are hard to find.

wookie70
30-12-2018, 11:05 PM
I always remember Howard Wilkinson said he had the ‘perfect midfield’
You need a passer -McCallister, tackler -Batty, runner -Strachan and scorer -Speed.
We had pretty much all bases covered last season.
However, you could argue we have the passer (Mallan) and tackler (Bartley/Milligan) but it stops there. No-one chipping in with goals and no energy.

All four of those players were workers with good energy levels and all could tackle, McCallister and Strachan also chipped in with goals too. I don't think Mallan is the passer, he is the scorer and I would agree with Bartley being the tackler, I'm not so sure about Milligan. I think my biggest frustration with the players we have signed is I can't see what style and formation we will play if they are all fit.

B.H.F.C
30-12-2018, 11:15 PM
We don't have one yet, partly because there wasn't time at the end of the window after McGinn was gone to get one and partly because even with time these players are hard to find.

There was still the best part of a month to go when he left. Given part of our recruitment policy is about succession planning we were entitled to expect better than what we ended up with.

BoomtownHibees
30-12-2018, 11:23 PM
We don't have one yet, partly because there wasn't time at the end of the window after McGinn was gone to get one and partly because even with time these players are hard to find.

He signed for Villa on the 8th August. You don’t think we could have had a replacement identified and in place before the window closed at the end of the month?

neil7908
30-12-2018, 11:25 PM
As i said previously, what were we supposed to do, sign his replacement early on just in case?

Genuinely crazy. If the club weren't ready to lose SJM we shouldn't have sold him. It was very clear he was 90% likely to leave so yes we should have signed his replacement before he left.

MacGruber
30-12-2018, 11:26 PM
Haven't read through the whole thread but have said this before. This whole replacing McGinn, McGeough, Allan woe is me stuff does the head in. It's simple - sign good players.
None of Livi, St Johnstone, Killie, Hearts etc have McGinn, McGeough, Allan. They never got millions in tge coffers for selling McGinn. They just signed better players than we did, with less money on less wages. They never got lost in this pity of players they lose. They just got on with it. We should just get on with it. Its not the players we lost thats made us poor it's the players we brought in. Lewis Ferguson being picked up by Aberdeen, Jordan Jones at Killie (I know not this season) - examples are endless. We bought in McGeough and McGinn and Allan for less than what we paid for our current incumbents. January is a big window - hope tgey get it right this time

One Day Soon
30-12-2018, 11:27 PM
There was still the best part of a month to go when he left. Given part of our recruitment policy is about succession planning we were entitled to expect better than what we ended up with.

Just three weeks and I don't think Villa were paying us all the money up front.

I don't think we were entitled to expect anything in one window. It took four years and eight windows to put together the midfield we lost, I'll judge how we've done in replacing it after another couple of windows. We signed enough to give us decent options once we add a proper play maker and terrier in there to get the best out of the rest.

The 90+2
30-12-2018, 11:27 PM
No, they didn't. In fact right up until Villa ponied up at the eleventh hour it looked like McGinn would still be with us this season because Celtic were trying and failing to get him on the cheap. Scott Allan was a stick-on to sign for us until Lawwell spiked it after making a fool of himself in losing McGinn. Dylan was the most ambiguous of the three.

You'd better steel yourself because it doesn't matter who the manager is, its going to take another couple of windows - at the minimum - to get remotely near the quality of midfield we had previously.

John McGinn was always going to leave us in the summer. Always. Remember Celtic matched the bid of Villa too. I’m going to guess in general you must be in about the 5% minority that thought he was going to stay. Same with Dylan.

I expect a manager to not replace them with utter pap leading us to the bottom 6. Aberdeen seem to do so year in year out. Perhaps McInnes gets on with it and is just a better manager than than Lennon.

neil7908
30-12-2018, 11:29 PM
Haven't read through the whole thread but have said this before. This whole replacing McGinn, McGeough, Allan woe is me stuff does the head in. It's simple - sign good players.
None of Livi, St Johnstone, Killie, Hearts etc have McGinn, McGeough, Allan. They never got millions in tge coffers for selling McGinn. They just signed better players than we did, with less money on less wages. They never got lost in this pity of players they lose. They just got on with it. We should just get on with it. Its not the players we lost thats made us poor it's the players we brought in. Lewis Ferguson being picked up by Aberdeen, Jordan Jones at Killie (I know not this season) - examples are endless. We bought in McGeough and McGinn and Allan for less than what we paid for our current incumbents. January is a big window - hope tgey get it right this time

Absolutely. Part of managing any club is coping with losing players. Real Madrid lost Ronaldo in the summer - should we feel sorry for them?

One Day Soon
30-12-2018, 11:29 PM
He signed for Villa on the 8th August. You don’t think we could have had a replacement identified and in place before the window closed at the end of the month?

No I don't. There's a reason McGinn went to Villa for the money he did - players like that are hard to find which is why our outstanding midfield took years to put together in the first place.

The 90+2
30-12-2018, 11:30 PM
Just three weeks and I don't think Villa were paying us all the money up front.

I don't think we were entitled to expect anything in one window. It took four years and eight windows to put together the midfield we lost, I'll judge how we've done in replacing it after another couple of windows. We signed enough to give us decent options once we add a proper play maker and terrier in there to get the best out of the rest.

John McGinn expressed his desire to leave before the summer preferably to Celtic. There was zero back up for him going and while some of us where shifting it I read on here it was bed wetting and the best players that become available at the end of the window. We the got 2 ***** loan players.

The 90+2
30-12-2018, 11:31 PM
No I don't. There's a reason McGinn went to Villa for the money he did - players like that are hard to find which is why our outstanding midfield took years to put together in the first place.

Who put it all together?

One Day Soon
30-12-2018, 11:31 PM
Genuinely crazy. If the club weren't ready to lose SJM we shouldn't have sold him. It was very clear he was 90% likely to leave so yes we should have signed his replacement before he left.

With what? Assuming there's a McGinn replacement out there and available that is. And what happens if we sign the replacement and then he dosen't go?

One Day Soon
30-12-2018, 11:38 PM
John McGinn was always going to leave us in the summer. Always. Remember Celtic matched the bid of Villa too. I’m going to guess in general you must be in about the 5% minority that thought he was going to stay. Same with Dylan.

I expect a manager to not replace them with utter pap leading us to the bottom 6. Aberdeen seem to do so year in year out. Perhaps McInnes gets on with it and is just a better manager than than Lennon.

When did McInnes lose the best midfield in Scotland all in one window and then have to replace them all in the same window? In addition McInnes has had almost six years and a bigger budget to develop his squad, Lennon by comparison has had two and a half years.

wookie70
30-12-2018, 11:38 PM
It's like the old joke, I don't need to run faster than the bear, I just need to run faster than you. We don't need to buy better than SJM, Dylan and Allen we just need to get better than St J, Kili, Livi or Hearts and then we probably get back into Europe or at least comfortably in the top 6. With the money from ST and SJM and the fact we aren't building a megastand then that is not too much to ask for.

One Day Soon
30-12-2018, 11:39 PM
Absolutely. Part of managing any club is coping with losing players. Real Madrid lost Ronaldo in the summer - should we feel sorry for them?

No because unlike us they shop in the football equivalent of Harrods while we are in a dogfight with many, many other clubs.

One Day Soon
30-12-2018, 11:41 PM
Who put it all together?

Stubbs and Lennon, what's your point?

neil7908
30-12-2018, 11:42 PM
With what? Assuming there's a McGinn replacement out there and available that is. And what happens if we sign the replacement and then he dosen't go?

We have another very good player in the squad. SJM was in the last year of his contact and clearly wasn't signing a new one.

His departure wasn't out of the blue. We should have been ready for it.

One Day Soon
30-12-2018, 11:43 PM
It's like the old joke, I don't need to run faster than the bear, I just need to run faster than you. We don't need to buy better than SJM, Dylan and Allen we just need to get better than St J, Kili, Livi or Hearts and then we probably get back into Europe or at least comfortably in the top 6. With the money from ST and SJM and the fact we aren't building a megastand then that is not too much to ask for.

You are right and I expect that to happen in the course of January and the Summer.

neil7908
30-12-2018, 11:43 PM
No because unlike us they shop in the football equivalent of Harrods while we are in a dogfight with many, many other clubs.

And we always will be. That market got us McGinn in first place.

Smartie
30-12-2018, 11:44 PM
We had the second half of last season with a top notch midfield.

For many years prior to that we had a very good, or at least functional midfield.

We had the talent of Scott Allan, Dylan McGeouch and John McGinn at different periods over a few years but we still managed to make decent units using other less celebrated players with them.

Stubbs took the dregs of what was left after relegation, signed Scott Allan and got a tidy unit working containing Liam Craig, Scott Robertson and Danny Handling. After that he introduced Fraser Five, then got Marvin Bartley.

The most encouraging moment in time during our recent revival was the way we responded to losing Scott Allan the first time. He was our main man, he made us tick, but when we lost him we ended up improving and went on to win the cup.

The sad thing about the summer just gone was the feeling of inevitability that we were going to get poorer, although I don't think any of us expected to deteriorate as much as we did.

Our problem now is that we are looking to bring in a Scott Allan, a John McGinn or a Dylan McGeouch and then try to get something out of the crap we already have. Milligan might do us a turn for a year or so but he doesn't look any better than Scott Robertson. Slivka has shown some promise over the past month or so and could possibly fill a shirt and contribute to an average-enough unit. Horgan has shown flashes but for me is a wide player. Hyndman needs to go, although he also showed flashes. Mallan is the real enigma as he hits a great shot but if you take that away he's probably the most ineffectual midfielder I've ever seen play for Hibs. Because of the goals many people will think he's worth persevering with (as will Lennon as he has continued to play him every week throughout) but I don't think we'll ever get a decent midfield as long as he's in it.

Mackie's emergence is useful as it lets us play Lewis in CM. Lewis has been player of the year in that position in the past but has only ever really been a regular at central midfield in some awful teams. The team he broke into was decent and he looked good and comfortable in it. Lewis saw off Michael Stewart who was a very good player himself It would be interesting to see what Lewis could do playing there again with good players around him - and I'm convinced that other than in midfield we do still have plenty of good players.

If we were down to the bare bones financially I'd understand, but this is a pretty awful position to have got ourselves into from where we were - going into a transfer window with players who are realistically only good enough to be filler between the real quality if we are to get into the top six let alone top 4.

One Day Soon
30-12-2018, 11:44 PM
We have another very good player in the squad. SJM was in the last year of his contact and clearly wasn't signing a new one.

His departure wasn't out of the blue. We should have been ready for it.

With what money? We don't have the McGinn money until McGinn goes and even then not all of it comes from Villa at once.

One Day Soon
30-12-2018, 11:45 PM
And we always will be. That market got us McGinn in first place.

Yes and it took us four years and eight windows to put that midfeld together. We signed plenty of others will looking for the McGinns and we'll need to do the same again.

B.H.F.C
30-12-2018, 11:46 PM
Just three weeks and I don't think Villa were paying us all the money up front.

I don't think we were entitled to expect anything in one window. It took four years and eight windows to put together the midfield we lost, I'll judge how we've done in replacing it after another couple of windows. We signed enough to give us decent options once we add a proper play maker and terrier in there to get the best out of the rest.

‘Just’ the three weeks eh. That would be three weeks to get a deal done. Not three weeks to identify a player(s) because if you believe what George Craig has says we’d already be well down the line with that type of thing.

One Day Soon
30-12-2018, 11:48 PM
We had the second half of last season with a top notch midfield.

For many years prior to that we had a very good, or at least functional midfield.

We had the talent of Scott Allan, Dylan McGeouch and John McGinn at different periods over a few years but we still managed to make decent units using other less celebrated players with them.

Stubbs took the dregs of what was left after relegation, signed Scott Allan and got a tidy unit working containing Liam Craig, Scott Robertson and Danny Handling. After that he introduced Fraser Five, then got Marvin Bartley.

The most encouraging moment in time during our recent revival was the way we responded to losing Scott Allan the first time. He was our main man, he made us tick, but when we lost him we ended up improving and went on to win the cup.

The sad thing about the summer just gone was the feeling of inevitability that we were going to get poorer, although I don't think any of us expected to deteriorate as much as we did.

Our problem now is that we are looking to bring in a Scott Allan, a John McGinn or a Dylan McGeouch and then try to get something out of the crap we already have. Milligan might do us a turn for a year or so but he doesn't look any better than Scott Robertson. Slivka has shown some promise over the past month or so and could possibly fill a shirt and contribute to an average-enough unit. Horgan has shown flashes but for me is a wide player. Hyndman needs to go, although he also showed flashes. Mallan is the real enigma as he hits a great shot but if you take that away he's probably the most ineffectual midfielder I've ever seen play for Hibs. Because of the goals many people will think he's worth persevering with (as will Lennon as he has continued to play him every week throughout) but I don't think we'll ever get a decent midfield as long as he's in it.

Mackie's emergence is useful as it lets us play Lewis in CM. Lewis has been player of the year in that position in the past but has only ever really been a regular at central midfield in some awful teams. It would be interesting to see what he could do playing there with good players around him - and I'm convinced that other than in midfield we do still have plenty of good players.

If we were down to the bare bones financially I'd understand, but this is a pretty awful position to have got ourselves into - going into a transfer window with players who are realistically only good enough to be filler between the real quality if we are to get into the top six let alone top 4.


I don't think we know what the current players are capable of until the Scott Allan figure is added. A midfield of Liam Craig, Scott Robertson and Danny Handling is pretty ordinary without a Scott Allan in it.

One Day Soon
30-12-2018, 11:50 PM
‘Just’ the three weeks eh. That would be three weeks to get a deal done. Not three weeks to identify a player(s) because if you believe what George Craig has says we’d already be well down the line with that type of thing.

Yes, just three weeks. Find him, get the club to agree to sell him and then agree a fee. To McGinn standard. Allan was the player targetted except Celtic threw a strop.

B.H.F.C
30-12-2018, 11:57 PM
Yes, just three weeks. Find him, get the club to agree to sell him and then agree a fee. To McGinn standard. Allan was the player targetted except Celtic threw a strop.

No not to McGinn standard. To get another player at his standard would be impossible on what we pay. But to get someone who might have the potential to develop to that standard. Or to get someone who is at least similar. Even if we got Scott Allan, that still wouldn’t have addressed to loss of McGinn and McGeough.

We ended up with a 33 year old who turned up late because of visa issues and is now away halfway through the season having been in and out the team lately having played in defence at times also. We’ve also ended up with a winger playing centrally most of the time.

We just have a collection of players in that area who are so unbalanced it’s unreal.

SquashedFrogg
30-12-2018, 11:58 PM
Has anyone seen the Sunderland documentary on Netflix?

I'm two episodes in and they've just had to deal with the transfer window, the manager is getting frustrated that it's hard to get players he needs with their budget (significantly higher than ours) and points out that all the clubs are after the same sort of player within the price range.

It's not easy for any club to just go as sign whatever player they want and the reality is that for Scottish clubs it's very hard to get players that are substantially better than the ones being signed by their rivals.

I think people live in a fantasy world sometimes, either blissfully ignorant of willingly dismissive of the challenges football clubs in Scotland face. Football Manager and FIFA don't help things, and I suppose it's hard for some who watched Hibs at a time when there was nothing between Scottish and English football to accept that we're way down the list of clubs players want to sign for, but that's where we are.

Transfers at our level are a risk, we've been unlucky with injuries that means or transfer activity in the summer looks worse than it might have done had everyone stayed fit and available.
Replacing the players that left is a very tough challenge, we can't bring in like for like so we need to develop potential again, and that takes time and patience.

Common sense alert....

Brace yourself for the inevitable onslaught from the keyboard experts.

wookie70
30-12-2018, 11:59 PM
You are right and I expect that to happen in the course of January and the Summer.

I hope it does but I am nowhere near as confident as you and I'm not sure I'm willing to empty the piggy bank to find out. If it goes wrong contracts are very expensive to exit.

For all I have a go at Lennon he would convince me to trust him if I could see a plan. All I can see the boat lilting to starboard and us all running over the other side. I liked the Stubbs and LD model with 3 players for every position one playing, one pushing to play and one developing. It worked in terms of creating a pretty rounded squad and I could see what was trying to be achieved. It wasn't perfect and perhaps it was the drive Lennon demonstrated in the first couple of seasons that made that team achieve the record points total last season.

If Lennon could even give me a hint that there was a plan, even two or three games with a balanced team would help, then I would be far more inclined to fall on his side. He was winning me over last year. Yes the results were a big part of it but I knew what way we would play and it was great to watch.

I expected a few bumps on the road this year and some poor results but what I wanted to see and hear was what the plan was. I haven't a clue what our midfield would be if everyone was fit and I don't know who would be our strikers given the main two appear to be completely out of favour. My reluctance in trusting Lennon is borne from the fact it is difficult to see what he was trying to achieve with the summer signings and the previous windows have generally been poor.

The Modfather
31-12-2018, 12:01 AM
With what money? We don't have the McGinn money until McGinn goes and even then not all of it comes from Villa at once.

You keep mentioning the fact we might not have received all of the McGinn money yet. That’s generally how most transfers work. Some is paid upfront and the rest paid over an agreed timeframe. We will do the exact same in our transfers.

One Day Soon
31-12-2018, 12:03 AM
You keep mentioning the fact we might not have received all of the McGinn money yet. That’s generally how most transfers work. Some is paid upfront and the rest paid over an agreed timeframe. We will do the exact same in our transfers.

Yes, which is why it wasn't all available in the Summer to go and get whoever we may have wanted.

The Modfather
31-12-2018, 12:07 AM
I hope it does but I am nowhere near as confident as you and I'm not sure I'm willing to empty the piggy bank to find out. If it goes wrong contracts are very expensive to exit.

For all I have a go at Lennon he would convince me to trust him if I could see a plan. All I can see the boat lilting to starboard and us all running over the other side. I liked the Stubbs and LD model with 3 players for every position one playing, one pushing to play and one developing. It worked in terms of creating a pretty rounded squad and I could see what was trying to be achieved. It wasn't perfect and perhaps it was the drive Lennon demonstrated in the first couple of seasons that made that team achieve the record points total last season.

If Lennon could even give me a hint that there was a plan, even two or three games with a balanced team would help, then I would be far more inclined to fall on his side. He was winning me over last year. Yes the results were a big part of it but I knew what way we would play and it was great to watch.

I expected a few bumps on the road this year and some poor results but what I wanted to see and hear was what the plan was. I haven't a clue what our midfield would be if everyone was fit and I don't know who would be our strikers given the main two appear to be completely out of favour. My reluctance in trusting Lennon is borne from the fact it is difficult to see what he was trying to achieve with the summer signings and the previous windows have generally been poor.

Great post, this is where I am. I could accept signings being poor if I could see what we were trying to do. An example being I really didn’t rate Holt and Graham but understood they were the kind of strikers we needed to get us out of the championship. We just seemed to sign a lot of individuals in the summer with no plan as to how they would all fit together.

MacGruber
31-12-2018, 12:10 AM
I hope it does but I am nowhere near as confident as you and I'm not sure I'm willing to empty the piggy bank to find out. If it goes wrong contracts are very expensive to exit.

For all I have a go at Lennon he would convince me to trust him if I could see a plan. All I can see the boat lilting to starboard and us all running over the other side. I liked the Stubbs and LD model with 3 players for every position one playing, one pushing to play and one developing. It worked in terms of creating a pretty rounded squad and I could see what was trying to be achieved. It wasn't perfect and perhaps it was the drive Lennon demonstrated in the first couple of seasons that made that team achieve the record points total last season.

If Lennon could even give me a hint that there was a plan, even two or three games with a balanced team would help, then I would be far more inclined to fall on his side. He was winning me over last year. Yes the results were a big part of it but I knew what way we would play and it was great to watch.

I expected a few bumps on the road this year and some poor results but what I wanted to see and hear was what the plan was. I haven't a clue what our midfield would be if everyone was fit and I don't know who would be our strikers given the main two appear to be completely out of favour. My reluctance in trusting Lennon is borne from the fact it is difficult to see what he was trying to achieve with the summer signings and the previous windows have generally been poor.

Sums up my frustration with it perfectly.

B.H.F.C
31-12-2018, 12:12 AM
I hope it does but I am nowhere near as confident as you and I'm not sure I'm willing to empty the piggy bank to find out. If it goes wrong contracts are very expensive to exit.

For all I have a go at Lennon he would convince me to trust him if I could see a plan. All I can see the boat lilting to starboard and us all running over the other side. I liked the Stubbs and LD model with 3 players for every position one playing, one pushing to play and one developing. It worked in terms of creating a pretty rounded squad and I could see what was trying to be achieved. It wasn't perfect and perhaps it was the drive Lennon demonstrated in the first couple of seasons that made that team achieve the record points total last season.

If Lennon could even give me a hint that there was a plan, even two or three games with a balanced team would help, then I would be far more inclined to fall on his side. He was winning me over last year. Yes the results were a big part of it but I knew what way we would play and it was great to watch.

I expected a few bumps on the road this year and some poor results but what I wanted to see and hear was what the plan was. I haven't a clue what our midfield would be if everyone was fit and I don't know who would be our strikers given the main two appear to be completely out of favour. My reluctance in trusting Lennon is borne from the fact it is difficult to see what he was trying to achieve with the summer signings and the previous windows have generally been poor.

Agree with this. I’ve said quite a few times that I think we have signed some players that, individually, are decent. But they don’t compliment each other.

When we signed two wingers in the summer I thought we’d be playing with width. Even when players have been available, we’ve rarely set up with two wingers on the pitch. Or if we have, Horgan has been in the middle of the park and Boyle up front or at wing back. Like you, I’m not sure what the plan was/is.

wookie70
31-12-2018, 12:13 AM
Great post, this is where I am. I could accept signings being poor if I could see what we were trying to do. An example being I really didn’t rate Holt and Graham but understood they were the kind of strikers we needed to get us out of that championship. We just seemed to sign a lot of individuals in the summer with no plan as to how they would all fit together.

That is a great example of what my wittering was about. I didn't particularly like the football that year and don't think Graham and Holt were good signings but there was direction and leadership. We looked focused and had a plan. That was even more the case when those players departed and we tried to build a team for the top league. I'm not seeing a plan at the moment

The 90+2
31-12-2018, 12:15 AM
When did McInnes lose the best midfield in Scotland all in one window and then have to replace them all in the same window? In addition McInnes has had almost six years and a bigger budget to develop his squad, Lennon by comparison has had two and a half years.

Aberdeen lost their best midfielder and players the last 3 years.

Stubbs had 2 years and created the best midfield in Scotland as you put it. Notnone of them Lennon brought in so why, based on the replacements so far would anyone think he will after even 6 years? How much more money have Aberdeen got on us? What about Killie and Saints?

The Modfather
31-12-2018, 12:18 AM
Yes, which is why it wasn't all available in the Summer to go and get whoever we may have wanted.

What do you mean when you say “it wasn’t all available in the summer?”

For arguments sake, if we sold McGinn for £1m, with £200,000 of that paid upfront and £800,000 in instalments. We then want to sign a replacement for £400,000. We have £200,000 in the bank but that doesn’t mean we can only afford a transfer up to £200,000, that’s all we could pay up front. We could afford the full £400,000 transfer by paying up to £200,000 up front and the rest in instalments from the £800,000 in scheduled payments from Villa.

The 90+2
31-12-2018, 12:18 AM
Great post, this is where I am. I could accept signings being poor if I could see what we were trying to do. An example being I really didn’t rate Holt and Graham but understood they were the kind of strikers we needed to get us out of that championship. We just seemed to sign a lot of individuals in the summer with no plan as to how they would all fit together.

Yep me too. Again a manager with no plan just signing for the sake of it not a position to do a job. Remember Holt was a back up plan for Heskeynwhondidnt fancy playing football anymore.

SquashedFrogg
31-12-2018, 12:28 AM
Yep me too. Again a manager with no plan just signing for the sake of it not a position to do a job. Remember Holt was a back up plan for Heskeynwhondidnt fancy playing football anymore.

Do you actually understand the post you responded to? We get your hatred of Lennon, but at least think before typing.

The 90+2
31-12-2018, 12:45 AM
Do you actually understand the post you responded to? We get your hatred of Lennon, but at least think before typing.

I don’t hate Lennon. I don’t hate anyone.

we are hibs
31-12-2018, 09:10 AM
How many windows has he had since losing McGeouch, McGinn, Allan?

If you think four months is patience you have lost the plot utterly.

Do you think that we decide who we are going for a few weeks before the window opens or do you think we have long term targets who we keep an eye on? Hadn't we been keeping an eye on slivka for about a year and a bit?


The way I understand it is, We have a scouting department who gather information on players in different positions with different qualities and strengths then a list is given to Lennon who tells the scouts who he fancies. He might go and watch them or someone he trusts goes and watches them then he picks one to go for. If that was the same for Stubbs as I assume it was then why have the signings been more poor than good under Lennon compared to more good than poor under Stubbs?same scouting deparment. Same people behind the scenes. So surely it's the manager or the staff he has brought in who have been choosing the wrong players?

HFC 0-7
31-12-2018, 01:45 PM
Has anyone seen the Sunderland documentary on Netflix?

I'm two episodes in and they've just had to deal with the transfer window, the manager is getting frustrated that it's hard to get players he needs with their budget (significantly higher than ours) and points out that all the clubs are after the same sort of player within the price range.

It's not easy for any club to just go as sign whatever player they want and the reality is that for Scottish clubs it's very hard to get players that are substantially better than the ones being signed by their rivals.

I think people live in a fantasy world sometimes, either blissfully ignorant of willingly dismissive of the challenges football clubs in Scotland face. Football Manager and FIFA don't help things, and I suppose it's hard for some who watched Hibs at a time when there was nothing between Scottish and English football to accept that we're way down the list of clubs players want to sign for, but that's where we are.

Transfers at our level are a risk, we've been unlucky with injuries that means or transfer activity in the summer looks worse than it might have done had everyone stayed fit and available.
Replacing the players that left is a very tough challenge, we can't bring in like for like so we need to develop potential again, and that takes time and patience.

Other teams with smaller budgets manage it. No one expects replacing like for like. What is an issue is players coming in and not cutting it. If no other clubs manage it then thats fine but they do. We are failing in transfer windows in my opinion at the moment. Far too many players coming in that dont even come close.