The table doesn’t lie

[timewilltell]

We’re just not that great.

[bingo70]

Neither does the calendar.

We’ve had a poor first half to the season but plenty time left.

[Coco Bryce]

We're not even good. Transfer window is crucial.

[The 90+2]

Neither does the calendar.

We’ve had a poor first half to the season but plenty time left.

For what? There’s about 5 teams at least better than us so the question is time for what? Keep the same amount of season ticket holders? Because it will be a miracle if we do.

[bingo70]

For what? There’s about 5 teams at least better than us so the question is time for what? Keep the same amount of season ticket holders? Because it will be a miracle if we do.

To sign 2 or 3 first team starters to improve the side.

[Stuart93]

Half way through, 8th in the league. If anyone had suggested we’d have been in that position now at the start of the season they would’ve been laughed off of .net

Nowhere near good enough, let’s see if it can be rectified in January. Think our best hope is a top 6 finish. Hopefully doesn’t hit the ST sales too hard either

[SirDavidsNapper]

Embarrassing we wont make top six with biggest budget in our history. Lennon gtf

[bigwheel]

Embarrassing we wont make top six with biggest budget in our history. Lennon gtf

There are a few other threads to make the same point on....keep going....


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[SirDavidsNapper]

There are a few other threads to make the same point on....keep going....


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Do you disagree?

[calumhibee1]

Out of our last 39 available points we’ve picked up 12. That’s potential relegation form over a period of 1/3rd of the season. Our decent start to the season has meant we probably don’t have to worry about that this season but we definitely look like a team that belongs in the bottom half imo.

[Scotty Leither]

Embarrassing we wont make top six with biggest budget in our history. Lennon gtf

I think that one's been done to death as well. I think the "biggest budget in our history" is currently nestling in the bank instead of being spent on players.

It's maybe the biggest bank balance in our history, though.

[bigwheel]

Do you disagree?

Yes 100%. Posting that the manager and players can "gtf" because we lost tonight...read like posts from a teenager in the huff....


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[SirDavidsNapper]

Yes 100%. Posting that the manager and players can "gtf" because we lost tonight...read like posts from a teenager in the huff....


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Because we lost tonight? 2 wins in 13

[bigwheel]

Because we lost tonight? 2 wins in 13

I was quoting your posts...


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[houstonhibbee]

We’re just not that great.
There’s a growing gap now between the the top four and the next four. Even with an improved second half to the season I think we’re almost out of contention for Europe

[Borderhibbie76]

There’s a growing gap now between the the top four and the next four. Even with an improved second half to the season I think we’re almost out of contention for EuropeFunny that coz according to some on here we have the best manager ever?? We are a bottom 6 side and he has turned us into that with his dreadful signings...he needs to turn this around and fast

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[Hibernian Verse]

Let's be honest. I'm a happy clapper. Loved my time in Athens/Tripoli but come on we are utter *****.

But I'll qualify that. We're missing 2 good players. Midfielders preferrably. Allan...and one other

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[Speedy]

We’re just not that great.

Terrible phrase. Did it lie 2/3 months ago when people were talking about title challenges?

Did it lie when Hearts/Livi were near the top?

[660]

Out of our last 39 available points we’ve picked up 12. That’s potential relegation form over a period of 1/3rd of the season. Our decent start to the season has meant we probably don’t have to worry about that this season but we definitely look like a team that belongs in the bottom half imo.

Totally agree. Dreadful.

[SirDavidsNapper]

If we don't scrape into the top 6 we could easily find ourselves in a relegation play off. This is far worse than Fenlons team when he got the sack. Thank the lord we had a decent start to the season.

[calumhibee1]

If we don't scrape into the top 6 we could easily find ourselves in a relegation play off. This is far worse than Fenlons team when he got the sack. Thank the lord we had a decent start to the season.

We’re 17 ahead of 2nd bottom with 17 to go. We’ll not be in a relegation playoff. You’d have to be looking at a huge improvement from one of the bottom two with us losing near enough every game for us to get drawn into that.

[Fife-Hibee]

If we don't scrape into the top 6 we could easily find ourselves in a relegation play off. This is far worse than Fenlons team when he got the sack. Thank the lord we had a decent start to the season.

It's bad, but nowhere near Fenlon bad.

[Steve20]

If we don't scrape into the top 6 we could easily find ourselves in a relegation play off. This is far worse than Fenlons team when he got the sack. Thank the lord we had a decent start to the season.

I assume I’m missing something and this post isn’t meant to come across as serious. As bad as we are, it’s not close to being as bad as a Fenlon or a Butcher team. We won’t get top six but we won’t be near a relegation playoff either. Dundee, St Mirren and Hamilton are garbage.

[jeffers]

If we don't scrape into the top 6 we could easily find ourselves in a relegation play off. This is far worse than Fenlons team when he got the sack. Thank the lord we had a decent start to the season.
It’s not worse than Fenlon’s team and he didn’t get the sack.

[we are hibs]

If we don't scrape into the top 6 we could easily find ourselves in a relegation play off. This is far worse than Fenlons team when he got the sack. Thank the lord we had a decent start to the season.

Don't think we will be in the play offs but it could be a similar season to the 10/11 one where we are stuck in the bottom 6 with no meaningful games in the split. Everything went stale that season after getting 4th and Europe the year before and you get the feeling it's happening again

[SirDavidsNapper]

It’s not worse than Fenlon’s team and he didn’t get the sack.

Right enough he got hounded out by the fans after 2 defeats in 9

[Hibeesmad]

Hopefully a good cup run 👍

[Hibernia&Alba]

12 points from 39 is worrying. We need to have a good transfer window and desperately need a quality midfielder to arrive.

[Just Jimmy]

it works in cycles. build a good side then lose them and struggle to replace like for like.

play average, not as bad as the hysteria and panic claims, just inconsistent. throw in the injuries and international call ups and the cycle continues cos the fans panic and turn on the manager.

the manager is chased out, the cycle continues, players are sold on or replaced for the sake of it. and the club gets worse.

the manager is chased out...

this isn't fenlon or calderwood or butcher. this is Lennon, his record before and with hibs means he has earned the right to have one bad half a season (not bad, just average cos there have been good results).

this place is mental.

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[B.H.F.C]

Right enough he got hounded out by the fans after 2 defeats in 9

Difference is Lennon has some credit in the bank with people.

Fenlon had two of the worst results in the clubs history behind him.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

And we say that they obsess about results us.
We’d just gone from beating Celtic soundly and then rode luck against Rangers a bit but showed character in particular away where Rangers have just thrashed Celtic 1-0.
Then we lose to Hearts through a bit of a wonder goal no matter we hit the woordwork the final stat was the key one.

Lennon as signposted this. Replacing McGinn is impossible. I think we punched above our weight midfield wise until we fell away funnily around the time Of the last Derby. Then injuries and a madcap fixture list impending any sort of momentum hurt us imo.

So here we are again. Been here before. And we’ll rise again.

[Hibernia&Alba]

it works in cycles. build a good side then lose them and struggle to replace like for like.

play average, not as bad as the hysteria and panic claims, just inconsistent. throw in the injuries and international call ups and the cycle continues cos the fans panic and turn on the manager.

the manager is chased out, the cycle continues, players are sold on or replaced for the sake of it. and the club gets worse.

the manager is chased out...

this isn't fenlon or calderwood or butcher. this is Lennon, his record before and with hibs means he has earned the right to have one bad half a season (not bad, just average cos there have been good results).

this place is mental.

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:top marks

We are always the victims of our own success. A good Hibs team attracts bigger clubs and we lose our better players, which then requires a re-build each time.

[Sir David Gray]

Yesterday's defeat was damaging, not just because it was a derby but because it gives us a mountain to climb to get back into the top 6.

The top 4 is gone as far as i'm concerned. Celtic, Rangers, Kilmarnock and Aberdeen are too far ahead but we are also now 7 behind Hearts and 5 behind St Johnstone (who have a game in hand albeit against Celtic).

Finishing bottom 6 would be a disgrace after where we were last season. We have a real fight on our hands trying to retain season ticket holders for next season, I would be surprised if we manage to get 13,000 to sign up again.

We really should have been looking to push on after last season but it hasn't happened. I know we lost 3 brilliant midfielders but we really should have been planning for all 3 to leave. Allan was never our player last year so we should have been expecting him to leave, McGeouch was out of contract and despite some hope at times, I think his departure was always on the cards and McGinn was always likely to leave too. He was out of contract at the end of this season and it was our final chance to make some decent money from him.

We should have been in a position of strength last season but it hasn't turned out that way. I know we have had bad luck with injuries but it's really only been in the last couple of weeks that we have had so many out at the one time. Before that we had the usual amount that every team needs to deal with.

We won't be anywhere near the bottom two places this season but our form since October, barring one or two exceptions has been awful. We definitely need strengthened in January but I fear that we should already be looking ahead to next season.

[B.H.F.C]

We ain’t going to achieve anything in the league. I still think we will do enough in January to reach top six but that isn’t any real achievement. I’m not sure why I think that right enough. I suppose I’m just hopeful that a couple of additions will help get better from some that are already there as well.

At least we have a decent draw in the Scottish. Hopefully we can get a run going in that.

[lyonhibs]

Half a season gone, half to go. Either you view the form of the last couple of months as something we're doomed to experience again or you're willing to trust that NL isn't Stevie Wonder and will this do everything within in his powers to rectify our complete lack of midfield cutting edge in January and we'll have a far more enjoyable and consistent 2nd half of the season.

I'm in the latter camp but tangible improvement in results needed pronto once the winter break is over.

[calumhibee1]

We ain’t going to achieve anything in the league. I still think we will do enough in January to reach top six but that isn’t any real achievement. I’m not sure why I think that right enough. I suppose I’m just hopeful that a couple of additions will help get better from some that are already there as well.

At least we have a decent draw in the Scottish. Hopefully we can get a run going in that.

That's my hope aswell. Not only will a couple of good players massively improve our starting line up but it would also hopefully help drag some of the under performers up a level or two. Whether Lennon can get a couple of good players in or not will be key in how our season pans out. More signings like the summer (or some of the previous windows Lennon had) and we'll not be able to put a run together to get top 6. More signings like last January and we could potentially end up back at Hampden and top 6.

[Spike Mandela]

Since we beat Hamilton 6-0, other than away to Kilmarnock, we have had lots of draws and narrow defeats.

In most of these games we have competed well and with a bit of luck, composure or quality results could have been turned into wins. Yes there is a malaise in the team at the moment that I can’t quite explain but the underlying quality is still there.

I feel with the right couple of additions, a few players hitting form and a bit of luck we can go on a decent unbeaten run like Kilmarnock or Aberdeen.

Even if we don’t, I don’t share the pessimistic view that we are on some kind of catastrophic downward spiral where fans are going to disappear like snow off a dyke. A mediocre season isn’t the end of the world. We are in no danger of relegation and we can still get good results against Celtic or Rangers.

Hibs are in a good place I feel, and if this season is a bit of a backward step I still feel the future trend for Hibs is an upward trajection.

[neil7908]

Very frustrating to me that we are in our current position as this is the most open league in a long time.

Unless Celtic spend big in a January could see someone else winning it this year. Yes it probably won't be Killie or Aberdeen but we should be in the mix fighting and dreaming. Instead we are behind not just our direct rivals (Hearts and Aberdeen) but Killie, St Johnstone and Livi.

I think a lot of the frustration is that we've been on the up for the last few years, the feelgood factor has been back and we are now hitting the ground with a bump.

We can make excuses all we want about losing players over the summer but that will always be a reality for a club our size. The challenge is and will always be to replace them. If a manger cant do you that then they aren't going to last long.

[neil7908]

Since we beat Hamilton 6-0, other than away to Kilmarnock, we have had lots of draws and narrow defeats.

In most of these games we have competed well and with a bit of luck, composure or quality results could have been turned into wins. Yes there is a malaise in the team at the moment that I can’t quite explain but the underlying quality is still there.

I feel with the right couple of additions, a few players hitting form and a bit of luck we can go on a decent unbeaten run like Kilmarnock or Aberdeen.

Even if we don’t, I don’t share the pessimistic view that we are on some kind of catastrophic downward spiral where fans are going to disappear like snow off a dyke. A mediocre season isn’t the end of the world. We are in no danger of relegation and we can still get good results against Celtic or Rangers.

Hibs are in a good place I feel, and if this season is a bit of a backward step I still feel the future trend for Hibs is an upward trajection.

Depends what you mean by mediocre. Finish in the top 6 after a good second half of the season and Lennon should get more time.

If we finish outwith the top 6 then I would question why we should give him more resources to turn things around.

Basically a big 6 months coming up.

[Eyrie]

We are now in a three way fight with St Johnstone and Livingston for the last spot in the top six.

Very disappointing and a good January window is essential if we're not to suffer the embarrassment of missing out. That will also hurt the club financially as there won't be a second visit from Celtc or Hearts, and season ticket sales will hit harder.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Yesterday's defeat was damaging, not just because it was a derby but because it gives us a mountain to climb to get back into the top 6.

The top 4 is gone as far as i'm concerned. Celtic, Rangers, Kilmarnock and Aberdeen are too far ahead but we are also now 7 behind Hearts and 5 behind St Johnstone (who have a game in hand albeit against Celtic).

Finishing bottom 6 would be a disgrace after where we were last season. We have a real fight on our hands trying to retain season ticket holders for next season, I would be surprised if we manage to get 13,000 to sign up again.

We really should have been looking to push on after last season but it hasn't happened. I know we lost 3 brilliant midfielders but we really should have been planning for all 3 to leave. Allan was never our player last year so we should have been expecting him to leave, McGeouch was out of contract and despite some hope at times, I think his departure was always on the cards and McGinn was always likely to leave too. He was out of contract at the end of this season and it was our final chance to make some decent money from him.

We should have been in a position of strength last season but it hasn't turned out that way. I know we have had bad luck with injuries but it's really only been in the last couple of weeks that we have had so many out at the one time. Before that we had the usual amount that every team needs to deal with.

We won't be anywhere near the bottom two places this season but our form since October, barring one or two exceptions has been awful. We definitely need strengthened in January but I fear that we should already be looking ahead to next season.

Sensible stuff, as usual, SDG :agree:

[Keith_M]

Neither does the calendar.

We’ve had a poor first half to the season but plenty time left.


I think we're now 5 points behind where we were after the same number of games last season and, apart from the odd game, not looking particularly good.

There would have to be massive changes in the team to recover in the second half of the season.

With the team we currently have, we'll be struggling to finish in the top six.

[660]

All considered, a *****y transitional season. I fear Lennon being given next year to be honest. A crap first half of each season isn’t a recipe for success.

[Sir David Gray]

I think we're now 5 points behind where we were after the same number of games last season and, apart from the odd game, not looking particularly good.

There would have to be massive changes in the team to recover in the second half of the season.

With the team we currently have, we'll be struggling to finish in the top six.

We'll need to come close to replicating our form in the second half of last season if we're going to finish in the top six this season.

At the moment that will require a number of additions to the squad over the next month and/or a significant improvement being made to the existing squad.

[madabouthibs]

Out of our last 39 available points we’ve picked up 12. That’s potential relegation form over a period of 1/3rd of the season. Our decent start to the season has meant we probably don’t have to worry about that this season but we definitely look like a team that belongs in the bottom half imo.
Totally agree with what you're saying here, but we could also note that 9 of those points have been picked up from a potential 18 , including 3 games against the OF, a Derby, and a point against a Killie side currently putting up a decent title challenge.
Injuries are hurting us bigtime, even wee Lewis is injured now ffs!

[calumhibee1]

Totally agree with what you're saying here, but we could also note that 9 of those points have been picked up from a potential 18 , including 3 games against the OF, a Derby, and a point against a Killie side currently putting up a decent title challenge.
Injuries are hurting us bigtime, even wee Lewis is injured now ffs!

That's true. Although it was Livi, not Killie that we picked up the point against. :wink:

[Diclonius]

A club with our budget shouldn't be below ANY team that isn't the OF, Aberdeen or Hearts. Three is criminal. 11 ****ing points behind Kilmarnock is even worse.

Since they were promoted St Johnstone have had sustained success we can only dream of. That's a joke.

[where'stheslope]

Since we beat Hamilton 6-0, other than away to Kilmarnock, we have had lots of draws and narrow defeats.

In most of these games we have competed well and with a bit of luck, composure or quality results could have been turned into wins. Yes there is a malaise in the team at the moment that I can’t quite explain but the underlying quality is still there.

I feel with the right couple of additions, a few players hitting form and a bit of luck we can go on a decent unbeaten run like Kilmarnock or Aberdeen.

Even if we don’t, I don’t share the pessimistic view that we are on some kind of catastrophic downward spiral where fans are going to disappear like snow off a dyke. A mediocre season isn’t the end of the world. We are in no danger of relegation and we can still get good results against Celtic or Rangers.

Hibs are in a good place I feel, and if this season is a bit of a backward step I still feel the future trend for Hibs is an upward trajection.
In one the underlined statement can be answered by noting Lennon's address to the media about players not pulling their weight?
Plus other players not producing in the team!!
To me all this is true, but should not be aired in the press, behind closed doors is fine as the players at least get a chance to answer the criticism!
Remember this is the same person who never spoke to the press when we were having a bad time of it, and he was pilloried on here for it!!!
When you publicly chastise players your going down the same road as Mourinio at Man Utd, the players stop playing, and it ends up breaking up!!!
Our own story of not that long ago, when Butcher told the players who would be leaving at the end of the season, and we all know how that ended!!!!
So please Neil keep the players talk out of the media, and don't burn bridges to early!!!!!

[madabouthibs]

That's true. Although it was Livi, not Killie that we picked up the point against. :wink:
Livi, Killie, they almost sound the same..... 😁 👍

[The 90+2]

I disagree.
I don't think there are too many on .net has the ability to laugh.

True. You would have been hounded upon and called a bed wetting whatever for having concerns. 👍

[Eyrie]

A club with our budget shouldn't be below ANY team that isn't the OF, Aberdeen or Hearts. Three is criminal. 11 ****ing points behind Kilmarnock is even worse.

Since they were promoted St Johnstone have had sustained success we can only dream of. That's a joke.

By that logic a club with our budget should never be above ANY team that isn't the OF, Aberdeen or Hearts. All four have bigger budgets than us.

In the real world a team with a good manager who signs the right players and uses them correctly will outperform its budget, which is why Kilmarnock under Clarke and St Johnstone under Wright have done well.

If Lennon manages the same then we will finish ahead of teams with bigger budgets, as we did last season when Hearts were a distant sixth and we came close to finishing ahead of Aberdeen and Sevco. Give Butcher or Calderwood the current budget and I'd be concerned about relegation.

[Speedway]

We’re just not that great.

Hibs have been Tom kite for nine seasons out of every ten on average since 1875.

We won a cup in 2016 a championship in 2017 and a european qualification in 2018.

If you’re under 40, you’ve never had it so good.

If you’re under 50, you’ve never seen ER so busy.

What’s your point, caller? That we’re not very good?

Correct. But we very rarely ever have been.

[Glory Lurker]

Hibs have been Tom kite for nine seasons out of every ten on average since 1875.

We won a cup in 2016 a championship in 2017 and a european qualification in 2018.

If you’re under 40, you’ve never had it so good.

If you’re under 50, you’ve never seen ER so busy.

What’s your point, caller? That we’re not very good?

Correct. But we very rarely ever have been.

I've seen this argument put forward a couple of times in recent days, and I just can't agree.

What has happened over the decades isn't relevant. You had all sorts of levellers, from the maximum wage through to the general decline of the game in the 70s and 80s,through to clubs needing to upgrade their stadia. Outside the OF, the latter two were wrecking balls and meant you couldn't predict over the piece which out of the other clubs would thrive or struggle. Those unpredictabilities have gone now, though. We have training facilities comparable to the OF. We have more season tickets sold than a number of our competition put together. The past is just that. We are head-and-shoulders above most teams in the league in terms of finances and structure. We shouldn't be where we are.

[Diclonius]

By that logic a club with our budget should never be above ANY team that isn't the OF, Aberdeen or Hearts. All four have bigger budgets than us.

I'm not saying we never should - I'm saying it should be the exception, rather than the rule.

Let's compare with our immediate rivals. In the last ten seasons, a team other than Celtic/Rangers/Aberdeen/Hearts/Hibs has finished above each of these teams:
Aberdeen: 5 times (50%)
Hearts: 7 times (70%)
Hibs: 9 times (90%)

Also worth noting that Aberdeen haven't finished below any of these teams since 2014 - this is what we should be aiming at. What about an average count of non OF/Aberdeen/Edinburgh teams that have finished above each of us every season in the last ten years?

Aberdeen: 2.0 per season
Hearts: 3.0 per season
Hibs: 5.4 per season

None of these records are particularly good, but it is ridiculous and a failure on the part of our board that an average of FIVE clubs with a considerably lower budget than ours finish above us every season.

Perhaps the biggest comparison is St Johnstone - a club with a shoestring budget, not even the first or second most supported club in a region smaller than Edinburgh and an average attendance of less than 4,000. Since being promoted in 2009, they have finished above us in six out of eight seasons, finished in the top half of the split six times (compared to our two), qualified for Europe five times (compared to our four) and won the Scottish Cup once, same as us. They also have a winning record against us (W10 D7 L5) and have a better head-to-head record in four of the seven seasons we played each other. I won't even begin to start talking about Motherwell or Dundee United.

This isn't just confined to recent history - every decade there always seems to be a "smaller" club that has a sustained period of success, whereas our good spells are confined to one or two seasons, at best. The last time we were consistently successful was probably the 70s. Our club has just been consistently poorly run over the years and the reason our fans are so quick to desert us when things go bad and take a lot of coaxing to come back is that we never stay good very long.

[calumhibee1]

I've seen this argument put forward a couple of times in recent days, and I just can't agree.

What has happened over the decades isn't relevant. You had all sorts of levellers, from the maximum wage through to the general decline of the game in the 70s and 80s,through to clubs needing to upgrade their stadia. Outside the OF, the latter two were wrecking balls and meant you couldn't predict over the piece which out of the other clubs would thrive or struggle. Those unpredictabilities have gone now, though. We have training facilities comparable to the OF. We have more season tickets sold than a number of our competition put together. The past is just that. We are head-and-shoulders above most teams in the league in terms of finances and structure. We shouldn't be where we are.

:agree:

Would be a bit like Man City fans accepting finishing bottom half of the EPL because if you average out their league positions they come out at 35th (or wherever they’d finish) in the English football pyramid so they should just be happy to be above that.

Obviously that’s a more extreme example than us but I find it hard to fathom how some people seem to be accepting of where we are because it’s roughly where we always used to end up.

[calumhibee1]

I'm not saying we never should - I'm saying it should be the exception, rather than the rule.

Let's compare with our immediate rivals. In the last ten seasons, a team other than Celtic/Rangers/Aberdeen/Hearts/Hibs has finished above each of these teams:
Aberdeen: 5 times (50%)
Hearts: 7 times (70%)
Hibs: 9 times (90%)

Also worth noting that Aberdeen haven't finished below any of these teams since 2014 - this is what we should be aiming at. What about an average count of non OF/Aberdeen/Edinburgh teams that have finished above each of us every season in the last ten years?

Aberdeen: 2.0 per season
Hearts: 3.0 per season
Hibs: 5.4 per season

None of these records are particularly good, but it is ridiculous and a failure on the part of our board that an average of FIVE clubs with a considerably lower budget than ours finish above us every season.

Perhaps the biggest comparison is St Johnstone - a club with a shoestring budget, not even the first or second most supported club in a region smaller than Edinburgh and an average attendance of less than 4,000. Since being promoted in 2009, they have finished above us in six out of eight seasons, finished in the top half of the split six times (compared to our two), qualified for Europe five times (compared to our four) and won the Scottish Cup once, same as us. They also have a winning record against us (W10 D7 L5) and have a better head-to-head record in four of the seven seasons we played each other. I won't even begin to start talking about Motherwell or Dundee United.

This isn't just confined to recent history - every decade there always seems to be a "smaller" club that has a sustained period of success, whereas our good spells are confined to one or two seasons, at best. The last time we were consistently successful was probably the 70s. Our club has just been consistently poorly run over the years and the reason our fans are so quick to desert us when things go bad and take a lot of coaxing to come back is that we never stay good very long.

That is some impressive statistical work on your part :greengrin
The 5.4 teams with smaller budgets above us on average a season considering our league only has 12 teams is really quite atrocious.

[Diclonius]

That is some impressive statistical work on your part :greengrin
The 5.4 teams with smaller budgets above us on average a season considering our league only has 12 teams is really quite atrocious.

To be fair, relegation meant we had an entire league of smaller teams above us for three seasons.

[Sammy7nil]

I'm not saying we never should - I'm saying it should be the exception, rather than the rule.

Let's compare with our immediate rivals. In the last ten seasons, a team other than Celtic/Rangers/Aberdeen/Hearts/Hibs has finished above each of these teams:
Aberdeen: 5 times (50%)
Hearts: 7 times (70%)
Hibs: 9 times (90%)

Also worth noting that Aberdeen haven't finished below any of these teams since 2014 - this is what we should be aiming at. What about an average count of non OF/Aberdeen/Edinburgh teams that have finished above each of us every season in the last ten years?

Aberdeen: 2.0 per season
Hearts: 3.0 per season
Hibs: 5.4 per season

None of these records are particularly good, but it is ridiculous and a failure on the part of our board that an average of FIVE clubs with a considerably lower budget than ours finish above us every season.

Perhaps the biggest comparison is St Johnstone - a club with a shoestring budget, not even the first or second most supported club in a region smaller than Edinburgh and an average attendance of less than 4,000. Since being promoted in 2009, they have finished above us in six out of eight seasons, finished in the top half of the split six times (compared to our two), qualified for Europe five times (compared to our four) and won the Scottish Cup once, same as us. They also have a winning record against us (W10 D7 L5) and have a better head-to-head record in four of the seven seasons we played each other. I won't even begin to start talking about Motherwell or Dundee United.

This isn't just confined to recent history - every decade there always seems to be a "smaller" club that has a sustained period of success, whereas our good spells are confined to one or two seasons, at best. The last time we were consistently successful was probably the 70s. Our club has just been consistently poorly run over the years and the reason our fans are so quick to desert us when things go bad and take a lot of coaxing to come back is that we never stay good very long.

I have not checked the stats :greengrin but that is really interesting and as you say startling stuff.

[lyonhibs]

To be fair, relegation meant we had an entire league of smaller teams above us for three seasons.

Which does rather render that average a tad meaningless.
I daresay the average discounting those 3 seasons still isn't great though

[Hibernian Verse]

I'm confused...who has a bigger support in Perth and Kinross than St Johnstone?

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[son of haggart]

I'm confused...who has a bigger support in Perth and Kinross than St Johnstone?

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Celtic and Rangers(anecdotally from my daughter re school at Aberfeldy)

[Speedy]

I've seen this argument put forward a couple of times in recent days, and I just can't agree.

What has happened over the decades isn't relevant. You had all sorts of levellers, from the maximum wage through to the general decline of the game in the 70s and 80s,through to clubs needing to upgrade their stadia. Outside the OF, the latter two were wrecking balls and meant you couldn't predict over the piece which out of the other clubs would thrive or struggle. Those unpredictabilities have gone now, though. We have training facilities comparable to the OF. We have more season tickets sold than a number of our competition put together. The past is just that. We are head-and-shoulders above most teams in the league in terms of finances and structure. We shouldn't be where we are.

We currenrly have 4 clubs spending more cash than us, which would suggest (all else being equal) that 5th is our level.

We are also in an environment where a vast numbers of clubs in England and abroad can outspend us. This makes it difficult for us (and all other Scottish clubs) to achieve consistency every year because our best players will be taken from us.

Yes, we are underperforming this year but by the same logic we overperformed last year.

[JimBHibees]

Celtic and Rangers(anecdotally from my daughter re school at Aberfeldy)

Depressingly true especially when you consider they have won Scottish cup recently and are regular top 6 team and also in Europe.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I'm confused...who has a bigger support in Perth and Kinross than St Johnstone?

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Old Firm seems likely. There are few places in Scotland where the local club has more support than the bigot brothers.

[Eyrie]

I'm not saying we never should - I'm saying it should be the exception, rather than the rule.

Let's compare with our immediate rivals. In the last ten seasons, a team other than Celtic/Rangers/Aberdeen/Hearts/Hibs has finished above each of these teams:
Aberdeen: 5 times (50%)
Hearts: 7 times (70%)
Hibs: 9 times (90%)

Also worth noting that Aberdeen haven't finished below any of these teams since 2014 - this is what we should be aiming at. What about an average count of non OF/Aberdeen/Edinburgh teams that have finished above each of us every season in the last ten years?

Aberdeen: 2.0 per season
Hearts: 3.0 per season
Hibs: 5.4 per season

None of these records are particularly good, but it is ridiculous and a failure on the part of our board that an average of FIVE clubs with a considerably lower budget than ours finish above us every season.

Perhaps the biggest comparison is St Johnstone - a club with a shoestring budget, not even the first or second most supported club in a region smaller than Edinburgh and an average attendance of less than 4,000. Since being promoted in 2009, they have finished above us in six out of eight seasons, finished in the top half of the split six times (compared to our two), qualified for Europe five times (compared to our four) and won the Scottish Cup once, same as us. They also have a winning record against us (W10 D7 L5) and have a better head-to-head record in four of the seven seasons we played each other. I won't even begin to start talking about Motherwell or Dundee United.

This isn't just confined to recent history - every decade there always seems to be a "smaller" club that has a sustained period of success, whereas our good spells are confined to one or two seasons, at best. The last time we were consistently successful was probably the 70s. Our club has just been consistently poorly run over the years and the reason our fans are so quick to desert us when things go bad and take a lot of coaxing to come back is that we never stay good very long.

Impressive work, and I agree our historic record is disappointing even when allowing for the sheer number of smaller competitors which means that one or two are likely to overachieve in any given year. The underlying issue is our own underachievement.

I think we've reached the same conclusion which is that any team that appoints a dud manager will underachieve and a good manager will over achieve. We've appointed too many duds but the track record of the current Dempster-led regime should give us confidence compared to the Petrie years.

[Diclonius]

I'm confused...who has a bigger support in Perth and Kinross than St Johnstone?

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I was referring to Tayside as a whole.

[Keith_M]

I'm confused...who has a bigger support in Perth and Kinross than St Johnstone?

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Celtc & The Rangers. Probably also ManU, and Liverpool, among others

[Hibernian Verse]

I was referring to Tayside as a whole.Either way it looks like they are third to Celtic and rangers in Perth anyway!

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[Keith_M]

Does the measure of whether we are underachieving or not have to be linked to our historical record of (under)achievement?

Surely it should be taken in the context of where we are now as a club.

We finally got the Scottish Cup hoodoo of our backs, and were then promoted the following season.
Broke Season Ticket records for the third year running.
Our own training centre, fully paid for.
Have a completed stadium (almost finished being paid for).
Manageable debt that will soon be paid off completely
The highest average attendances since the glory days of the 1950s.


Add to this the fact that the four biggest clubs* have been performing well below the norm this season... and yet we are still currently only in 8th place... with only 7 wins from 21 league games

I think considering those circumstances, it's reasonable to say we're underachieving.





* I'll leave everybody else to argue about size ;-)

[Connollys11]

Old Firm seems likely. There are few places in Scotland where the local club has more support than the bigot brothers.

Aberdeen is probably the only club in Scotland that the majority of their hometown support Aberdeen.

[Speedway]

I've seen this argument put forward a couple of times in recent days, and I just can't agree.

What has happened over the decades isn't relevant. You had all sorts of levellers, from the maximum wage through to the general decline of the game in the 70s and 80s,through to clubs needing to upgrade their stadia. Outside the OF, the latter two were wrecking balls and meant you couldn't predict over the piece which out of the other clubs would thrive or struggle. Those unpredictabilities have gone now, though. We have training facilities comparable to the OF. We have more season tickets sold than a number of our competition put together. The past is just that. We are head-and-shoulders above most teams in the league in terms of finances and structure. We shouldn't be where we are.

Correct. We SHOULDN’T be where we are (on paper) but history tells us that this is more often than not where we end up.

[Monts]

To be fair, relegation meant we had an entire league of smaller teams above us for three seasons.

SO if you didn't include teams we didn't actually compete against, it would be what? Around 1.9?

[cabbageandribs1875]

Half way through, 8th in the league. If anyone had suggested we’d have been in that position now at the start of the season they would’ve been laughed off of .net

Nowhere near good enough, let’s see if it can be rectified in January. Think our best hope is a top 6 finish. Hopefully doesn’t hit the ST sales too hard either


laughed at is harmless, but i suspect they would have got a bit of good old-fashioned verbal abuse, or even worse...accused of being 'yam fuds' :(

[calumhibee1]

SO if you didn't include teams we didn't actually compete against, it would be what? Around 1.9?

9 in the 1st season, 8 in the 2nd season and 7 in the 3rd season. So 2.4 per season on average to be removed making the average excluding the relegation season bang on 3? I have no idea if I’ve worked that out wrong though!

[danhibees1875]

9 in the 1st season, 8 in the 2nd season and 7 in the 3rd season. So 2.4 per season on average to be removed making the average excluding the relegation season bang on 3? I have no idea if I’ve worked that out wrong though!

Assuming the OP stats are right, 5.4 average over 10 years is 54 teams. Take away the 9, 8, and 7 (24) there and you have 30. You would then have to then divide that by the 7 years we're now looking at, not 10, and that gives 4.3.

I think. :greengrin

Hearts would also get a 1 year let off which would improve their average slightly if we're playing fair.

[calumhibee1]

Assuming the OP stats are right, 5.4 average over 10 years is 54 teams. Take away the 9, 8, and 7 (24) there and you have 30. You would then have to then divide that by the 7 years we're now looking at, not 10, and that gives 4.3.

I think. :greengrin

Hearts would also get a 1 year let off which would improve their average slightly if we're playing fair.

Yours sounds closer to being correct. We’ll go with that!

[Monts]

Assuming the OP stats are right, 5.4 average over 10 years is 54 teams. Take away the 9, 8, and 7 (24) there and you have 30. You would then have to then divide that by the 7 years we're now looking at, not 10, and that gives 4.3.

I think. :greengrin

Hearts would also get a 1 year let off which would improve their average slightly if we're playing fair.

I'm not sure why you would reduce it to 7 years? We still competed with teams with higher and lower budgets in those years. Its just we only finished behind 1 of the lower budget teams over the 3 years.

[danhibees1875]

I'm not sure why you would reduce it to 7 years? We still competed with teams with higher and lower budgets in those years. Its just we only finished behind 1 of the lower budget teams over the 3 years.

We're comparing ourselves against Aberdeen and Hearts though and how we've each performed relative to budget - it makes sense to confine that to only the years in the premiership. Taking those 3 years into account significantly changes the figures we're looking at, although I do agree that in absolute terms of how we performed vs budget there was only the one year where we were behind Falkirk that we didn't meet expectations if we were only looking inwardly at our own performance.

[Monts]

We're comparing ourselves against Aberdeen and Hearts though and how we've each performed relative to budget - it makes sense to confine that to only the years in the premiership. Taking those 3 years into account significantly changes the figures we're looking at, although I do agree that in absolute terms of how we performed vs budget there was only the one year where we were behind Falkirk that we didn't meet expectations if we were only looking inwardly at our own performance.

Fair enough with the point about the comparison :aok: