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Heckys Wheel
27-12-2018, 12:19 AM
Let’s hope he finds the form he seemed to leave in Sydney when he’s away.

Gone from being first name on the team sheet to barely missing him for the derby.

Pace will be missed but got the impression today he was hiding.

Callum_62
27-12-2018, 12:20 AM
We got a very good point at Ibrox

No one hid


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Heckys Wheel
27-12-2018, 12:30 AM
We got a very good point at Ibrox

No one hid


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Oh right, is that how it works? 🙄

Callum_62
27-12-2018, 12:34 AM
Oh right, is that how it works? [emoji849]

It does - you don’t get results at Ibrox or Parkhead without everyone pulling there weight

I believe Boyle was the one who stopped a 1 on 1 in the first half with a great tracking run




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silverhibee
27-12-2018, 01:38 AM
Boyle was poor today, more so the 2nd half.

Borderhibbie76
27-12-2018, 08:30 AM
Boyle was poor today, more so the 2nd half.I almost had an argument with a girl Sat behind me at ER ON Sat all because I shouted to Boyle in 1st half to get involved and find a hibs player with a pass or cross. It seems he can do no wrong in a lot of hibbies eyes yet if poor Whittaker made half the mistakes and misplaced passes Boyle does he'd be slaughtered. Not got anywhere near to his levels of last season imo yet seems to escape the criticism levelled at others...even by Lennon who appears to see no wrong in him. Like Boyle but he's been pretty ineffective for months and needs to up his game on his return.

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Crammond Hibee
27-12-2018, 08:34 AM
Yes he is definitely struggling.
We could do with his past form but sadly he seems off at the moment

superfurryhibby
27-12-2018, 09:26 AM
Boyle contributed much that was positive v Livi last week. He’s not superman though. He’ll be missed v Hearts, no doubt about it. No one else offers what he provides to the team.

The Leith Dutch
27-12-2018, 11:19 AM
all because I shouted to Boyle in 1st half to get involved and find a hibs player with a pass or cross

What an idiotic thing to shout at a player.
Don't get me wrong, I understand the frustration of watching a player misplace passes or crosses but what do you think is going to happen? A light going on in his head where he remembers to kick the ball towards a team mate because he hears a garbled barrage on anger from the stands?

BoomtownHibees
27-12-2018, 11:23 AM
What an idiotic thing to shout at a player.


It’s not really

Centre Hawf
27-12-2018, 11:23 AM
What an idiotic thing to shout at a player.
Don't get me wrong, I understand the frustration of watching a player misplace passes or crosses but what do you think is going to happen? A light going on in his head where he remembers to kick the ball towards a team mate because he hears a garbled barrage on anger from the stands?

You new to football?

bigwheel
27-12-2018, 11:24 AM
What an idiotic thing to shout at a player.
Don't get me wrong, I understand the frustration of watching a player misplace passes or crosses but what do you think is going to happen? A light going on in his head where he remembers to kick the ball towards a team mate because he hears a garbled barrage on anger from the stands?


just a bit of passion from a fan though - football shouts are rarely rationale are they? we all get frustrated at times..part of the madness and fun of the game..

Future17
27-12-2018, 11:27 AM
What an idiotic thing to shout at a player.
Don't get me wrong, I understand the frustration of watching a player misplace passes or crosses but what do you think is going to happen? A light going on in his head where he remembers to kick the ball towards a team mate because he hears a garbled barrage on anger from the stands?

What is it acceptable to shout at a player out of interest?

SChibs
27-12-2018, 11:36 AM
What is it acceptable to shout at a player out of interest?

Encouragement and support is a good start.

blackpoolhibs
27-12-2018, 11:37 AM
Let’s hope he finds the form he seemed to leave in Sydney when he’s away.

Gone from being first name on the team sheet to barely missing him for the derby.

Pace will be missed but got the impression today he was hiding.

Hiding my erse, :rolleyes: the guy is running on empty, he's burst a gut for this club and played all over the pitch for the good of this team and never moaned once.

erin go bragh
27-12-2018, 11:43 AM
How did Celtic get on with their request for Rogic to join the Aussie squad after their derby ?

The Leith Dutch
27-12-2018, 11:47 AM
It’s not really

It really is.

I'm pretty certain he's intending to hit players with passes and crosses so why shout that at him?

While shouting at a player isn't my thing doing it for bottling a challenge or not showing effort chasing or closing down makes some sense.

Shouting at them about passing? Not so much.

The Leith Dutch
27-12-2018, 11:49 AM
You new to football?

Nope. But the fact people have been idiots for a long time isn't a defense against the charge of idiocy.

BoomtownHibees
27-12-2018, 11:49 AM
It really is.

I'm pretty certain he's intending to hit players with passes and crosses so why shout that at him?

While shouting at a player isn't my thing doing it for bottling a challenge or not showing effort chasing or closing down makes some sense.

Shouting at them about passing? Not so much.

So a player misplaces numerous passes and you think it’s idiotic to shout something about finding his own man or finding someone in green etc??

Future17
27-12-2018, 11:53 AM
Encouragement and support is a good start.

True. I think fans are entitled to voice reasonable criticism though. Most fans vocalise criticism out of observation/frustration rather than an expectation it'll improve performance. I don't think that makes them idiots.

bingo70
27-12-2018, 11:53 AM
So a player misplaces numerous passes and you think it’s idiotic to shout something about finding his own man or finding someone in green etc??

TBH I agree with him.

I get frustrated and at times shout stuff that in the cold light of day is clearly daft but things like telling a player to pass to his own team is pretty stupid IMO.

Emotional shouts after a mistake are understandable and can't be helped sometimes, giving 'advice' on what they should or shouldn't be doing is pretty pointless and daft IMO.

BoomtownHibees
27-12-2018, 11:58 AM
TBH I agree with him.

I get frustrated and at times shout stuff that in the cold light of day is clearly daft but things like telling a player to pass to his own team is pretty stupid IMO.

Emotional shouts after a mistake are understandable and can't be helped sometimes, giving 'advice' on what they should or shouldn't be doing is pretty pointless and daft IMO.

There’s a lot of stuff shouted at the football that is daft however it’s an emotional game and folk will shout stuff that in the cold light of day will seem bit irrational. That doesn’t make it “idiotic”. Half the stuff that folk shout won’t be heard by anyone out with the people sitting around them but it always happens and will continue to happen in every single game of football up and down the country.

Idiotic? Not for me

The Leith Dutch
27-12-2018, 12:04 PM
So a player misplaces numerous passes and you think it’s idiotic to shout something about finding his own man or finding someone in green etc??

Idiotic is exactly what I think shouting at him about it is.

The key point being not that I'm delighted he's doing that or "accepting mediocrity" as you seem to be trying to link the two things.....

I'm just pointing out the fact that shouting at him about it isn't going to improve his passing out make him try harder.

If anything is likely to make him either more nervous or less inclined to try things which, for a player like Boyle, is massively counter productive.

WhileTheChief..
27-12-2018, 12:09 PM
Load of crap.

Fans have shouted things at players at every game of football since the game was invented.

The Leith Dutch
27-12-2018, 12:17 PM
Load of crap.

Fans have shouted things at players at every game of football since the game was invented.

They've racially abused players since black players have been involved in the game too.

Shall we just not comment on that because folk have done that for years too?

**** defence.

BoomtownHibees
27-12-2018, 12:24 PM
They've racially abused players since black players have been involved in the game too.

Shall we just not comment on that because folk have done that for years too?

**** defence.

That’s some comparison that

The Leith Dutch
27-12-2018, 12:27 PM
That’s some comparison that

Not comparing shouting at Boyle for his passing with racism.
Just pointing out what a weak argument "we've done it for years so it's ok" is.

Borderhibbie76
27-12-2018, 12:42 PM
What an idiotic thing to shout at a player.
Don't get me wrong, I understand the frustration of watching a player misplace passes or crosses but what do you think is going to happen? A light going on in his head where he remembers to kick the ball towards a team mate because he hears a garbled barrage on anger from the stands?We all get frustrated at the football mate u make it sound like it's alien behaviour??? And btw I'm tame compared to most that sit around me

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Borderhibbie76
27-12-2018, 12:44 PM
They've racially abused players since black players have been involved in the game too.

Shall we just not comment on that because folk have done that for years too?

**** defence.So shouting at a player in frustration is now being compared to racism...have a word man

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Tyler Durden
27-12-2018, 12:48 PM
Hiding my erse, :rolleyes: the guy is running on empty, he's burst a gut for this club and played all over the pitch for the good of this team and never moaned once.

I have to say that at the start of the 2nd half vs Livvy, he seemed to be hiding to me. He was taking up positions where players could not give him the ball. When he did get involved he was a big threat and made a huge difference.

Not something I’d ever think I’d level at Boyle but he seemed to be trying to avoid injury to me.

The Leith Dutch
27-12-2018, 12:53 PM
So shouting at a player in frustration is now being compared to racism...have a word man

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Nope it isn't but hey, feel free to interpret the argument that way because it's easier than trying to understand.

superfurryhibby
27-12-2018, 12:54 PM
I have to say that at the start of the 2nd half vs Livvy, he seemed to be hiding to me. He was taking up positions where players could not give him the ball. When he did get involved he was a big threat and made a huge difference.

Not something I’d ever think I’d level at Boyle but he seemed to be trying to avoid injury to me.

In a word..... nonsense.

Borderhibbie76
27-12-2018, 12:54 PM
Nope it isn't but hey, feel free to interpret the argument that way because it's easier than trying to understand.I get your point of view but find it unnecessary to compare it to racism...let's Just leave it there mate - season of goodwill and all that

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The Leith Dutch
27-12-2018, 12:58 PM
I get your point of view but find it unnecessary to compare it to racism...let's Just leave it there mate - season of goodwill and all that

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Yeah - sorry mate....
Multiple days of family taking their toll on me ;)
Peace

Borderhibbie76
27-12-2018, 12:59 PM
Yeah - sorry mate....
Multiple days of family taking their toll on me ;)
PeaceKnow the feeling mate [emoji1787]

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Tyler Durden
27-12-2018, 01:15 PM
In a word..... nonsense.

Funny that multiple people have said the same thing about Boyle in the last 2 games. Not a coincidence that it’s happened in the 2 games before he jets off for a month.

blackpoolhibs
27-12-2018, 01:18 PM
Funny that multiple people have said the same thing about Boyle in the last 2 games. Not a coincidence that it’s happened in the 2 games before he jets off for a month.

It's still rubbish in my opinion though, whenever anyone has a dip in form, or does not play a blinder, there has to be another reason on here other than he's just not played as well as we know he can?

I'd suggest that he's about knackered, but thats only a guess very much like he's saving himself for Australia?

JimBHibees
27-12-2018, 01:21 PM
I have to say that at the start of the 2nd half vs Livvy, he seemed to be hiding to me. He was taking up positions where players could not give him the ball. When he did get involved he was a big threat and made a huge difference.

Not something I’d ever think I’d level at Boyle but he seemed to be trying to avoid injury to me.

No way.

Tyler Durden
27-12-2018, 01:28 PM
It's still rubbish in my opinion though, whenever anyone has a dip in form, or does not play a blinder, there has to be another reason on here other than he's just not played as well as we know he can?

I'd suggest that he's about knackered, but thats only a guess very much like he's saving himself for Australia?

Only one man will know

I’d say he’s been off form for a while but the difference last week was he didn’t want the ball. Maybe I’m seeing something that isn’t there. Hopefully he gets a confidence boost from this tournament and comes back on form.

heretoday
27-12-2018, 01:30 PM
Boyle's a disappointment much of the time.

B.H.F.C
27-12-2018, 01:39 PM
Boyle was poor yesterday. There was a couple of times in the first half that he had the ball out wide, in acres of space, and had Halliday one on one. He lost it on both occasions and it was two good chances wasted. It was the type of position that you’d expect him to go past anybody.

Whilst I’d never necesarilly accuse Boyle of hiding, he kept disappearing inside in the second half when Ambrose was stepping out with the ball. He certainly wasn’t making himself as available to take the ball as he could have. He did get a bit more involved when moved up front I thought.

He’s definitely not quite at it just now. I don’t think the fact he has been shifted around so much has helped. Even though he was out wide yesterday, playing as a wing back is a lot different to being an out and out winger.

Heckys Wheel
27-12-2018, 01:43 PM
I have to say that at the start of the 2nd half vs Livvy, he seemed to be hiding to me. He was taking up positions where players could not give him the ball. When he did get involved he was a big threat and made a huge difference.

Not something I’d ever think I’d level at Boyle but he seemed to be trying to avoid injury to me.

He did the same yesterday.

The word hiding makes it sound like a deliberate thing. Sometimes it can be sub-conscious. Just not taking up positions to receive the ball.

It can happen as a result of low confidence but also fatigue or carrying an injury.

blackpoolhibs
27-12-2018, 01:46 PM
Boyle was poor yesterday. There was a couple of times in the first half that he had the ball out wide, in acres of space, and had Halliday one on one. He lost it on both occasions and it was two good chances wasted. It was the type of position that you’d expect him to go past anybody.

Whilst I’d never necesarilly accuse Boyle of hiding, he kept disappearing inside in the second half when Ambrose was stepping out with the ball. He certainly wasn’t making himself as available to take the ball as he could have. He did get a bit more involved when moved up front I thought.

He’s definitely not quite at it just now. I don’t think the fact he has been shifted around so much has helped. Even though he was out wide yesterday, playing as a wing back is a lot different to being an out and out winger.

Halliday marked him well in that first half, it happens? As for him moving inside, its a ploy when we bring the ball out from the back to create space for Ambrose to run into, rather than have a static man who will obviously be marked in less space.

Boyle has not been at his best for a while, lets not make stories up as to why?

B.H.F.C
27-12-2018, 01:51 PM
Halliday marked him well in that first half, it happens? As for him moving inside, its a ploy when we bring the ball out from the back to create space for Ambrose to run into, rather than have a static man who will obviously be marked in less space.

Boyle has not been at his best for a while, lets not make stories up as to why?

It wasn’t a very good ploy yesterday. Boyle, second half, just reduced the options available to Ambrose when he came out with the ball IMO. He went where the space wasn’t.

As for making up stories about his poor for I don’t think I did. What I said about his moving about of positions helps explain it if anything IMO. Even if it doesn’t totally excuse it.

hibsbollah
27-12-2018, 01:51 PM
Funny that multiple people have said the same thing about Boyle in the last 2 games. Not a coincidence that it’s happened in the 2 games before he jets off for a month.

I was at the Livvy game and I can't believe what I'm reading about Boyle apparently 'hiding'. I thought he looked most likely to score first half, and second half he not only won the pen with his pace, but also ran half the length of the pitch dribbling past five defenders and almost scoring goal of the season:confused:

superfurryhibby
27-12-2018, 01:53 PM
Funny that multiple people have said the same thing about Boyle in the last 2 games. Not a coincidence that it’s happened in the 2 games before he jets off for a month.

It’s the usual **** stirring people though, isn’t it?

Each to their own, but I feel Boyle ( and Ambrose) is often our only attacking threat. Livi game, he won a penalty, had some driving runs and troubled them. I find it almost laughable that anyone can seriously believe Lennon would tolerate a player not trying as hard as he can because he has one eye on an international trip. We live in different universes I’m afraid.

allmodcons
27-12-2018, 02:05 PM
Hiding my erse, :rolleyes: the guy is running on empty, he's burst a gut for this club and played all over the pitch for the good of this team and never moaned once.

:agree: Just what some people on here expect of him bewilders me.

Tyler Durden
27-12-2018, 02:09 PM
It’s the usual **** stirring people though, isn’t it?

Each to their own, but I feel Boyle ( and Ambrose) is often our only attacking threat. Livi game, he won a penalty, had some driving runs and troubled them. I find it almost laughable that anyone can seriously believe Lennon would tolerate a player not trying as hard as he can because he has one eye on an international trip. We live in different universes I’m afraid.

I’m not sure it is?

I’m not usually in the habit of slating players. Jonny Boy also mentioned in his last 2 reports that he felt Boyle has gone missing for large spells.

Hiding is an emotive term, maybe harsh. For me in the Livvy game, Boyle was not making himself available for the ball in the usual manner. When he chose to get involved he was a big threat and had some great play.

Lennon said that he felt Boyle was back to his best against Livvy. Not what I saw

WhileTheChief..
27-12-2018, 02:13 PM
Boyle's a disappointment much of the time.

Agreed.

It’s one of the few things I disagree with Lennon on.

I wouldn’t mind if he stayed in Oz!

Sorry folks.

blackpoolhibs
27-12-2018, 03:02 PM
It wasn’t a very good ploy yesterday. Boyle, second half, just reduced the options available to Ambrose when he came out with the ball IMO. He went where the space wasn’t.

As for making up stories about his poor for I don’t think I did. What I said about his moving about of positions helps explain it if anything IMO. Even if it doesn’t totally excuse it.

I badly worded what i said in that post, i never meant to say you had said he was hiding, others have and i just dont believe he's that type of player.

We are not as good a side as last season, it really is as simple as that, and folk can make up things all they like about players hiding, players dont actually want to be at the club is another, but the sad fact is we've regressed a little as a team, but we are not far away and will build again.

J-C
27-12-2018, 08:41 PM
Boyle's a disappointment much of the time.

Thank you for that much needed contribution 👍

SChibs
27-12-2018, 09:00 PM
I've not watched Boyle closely enough to say whether or not he has been hiding. It could just be that our opponents are changing the way they play against his to nullify his threat? He's being marked but he can't knock the ball past the first man as the 2nd is positioned in a way that they would be favourite to clear it. It also appears that teams aren't giving us any room down that side hence boyle has no space to run into

FifeHibs
27-12-2018, 09:02 PM
Boyle has not been as good as last season in parts this season. Lennon even joked he thought is was Boyles brother playing against Aberdeen the week after we got beat 1-0 in Aberdeen.
Although he gets himself in good positions he often neither shoots or crosses and the end product is a weak cross/shot that goes wide whilst giving the striker little chance of getting on the end of it.

JimBHibees
28-12-2018, 10:37 AM
Agreed.

It’s one of the few things I disagree with Lennon on.

I wouldn’t mind if he stayed in Oz!

Sorry folks.

Nice touch.

Ronniekirk
28-12-2018, 10:52 AM
Agreed.

It’s one of the few things I disagree with Lennon on.

I wouldn’t mind if he stayed in Oz!

Sorry folks.

On Form he is a key component of the team Tracks back helping out defence and then sprints up the other tend causing problems and creating chances and scoring the odd goal .
At the start of the Season he was turning games our way by talking on players and causing panic in defences .
He can't do that every week ,as lots of factors contribute to form .
If he was to be transferred in January we would soon realise the gap he leaves
Some folk need to get real
Ok no one expected us to be in 8th place and no one including players and management are happy with our current position
But I can't remember so many players being injured and being out at the same time
It would have been easy Decision to cancel the Derby given our players away with Australia and our injuries But Club realise a lot of fans will be home for Hogmany and bought tickets So they have opted for game to go ahead
Brave decision given our position But if we don't win I won't be moaning
We will strengthen in the Window and players will return from injuryI predict a sting finish to the Season but by end of January we could still be outside top six
But things will turn in our favour again unless we keep picking up injuries at the same rate But we would need to be really unlucky for that to happen

Carheenlea
28-12-2018, 11:15 AM
The closer we get to the derby, the more annoyed I’m getting that he is unavailable due to his International commitments. He’d run them ragged at ER.

JimBHibees
28-12-2018, 11:16 AM
The closer we get to the derby, the more annoyed I’m getting that he is unavailable due to his International commitments. He’d run them ragged at ER.

Agree big loss on the bigger pitch v Hearts.

bingo70
28-12-2018, 11:21 AM
The closer we get to the derby, the more annoyed I’m getting that he is unavailable due to his International commitments. He’d run them ragged at ER.

I would rather he played as well but the only formation we seem to be able to get him into the side and on the wing is if he is played as a wing back and I actually think the team has a better shape and balance to it when Gray plays there. He's never played well as a striker and if we play with him as an out and out winger then we miss the extra man in midfield or up front.

I don't know what the answer is and i would rather he was available but i don't think it's the end of the world he's not playing tomorrow.

J-C
28-12-2018, 11:26 AM
I would rather he played as well but the only formation we seem to be able to get him into the side and on the wing is if he is played as a wing back and I actually think the team has a better shape and balance to it when Gray plays there. He's never played well as a striker and if we play with him as an out and out winger then we miss the extra man in midfield or up front.

I don't know what the answer is and i would rather he was available but i don't think it's the end of the world he's not playing tomorrow.


Hence why we should play 4-3-3 and allow Gray at RB and Boyle as RW.

bingo70
28-12-2018, 11:39 AM
Hence why we should play 4-3-3 and allow Gray at RB and Boyle as RW.

In theory that could work but i think when we have tried it, it hasn't worked.

I don't think we've got an obvious choice for the left side when we do that and we play better with two players through the middle. Might become an option if we can ever get Agyepong fit though.

JimBHibees
28-12-2018, 11:42 AM
In theory that could work but i think when we have tried it, it hasn't worked.

I don't think we've got an obvious choice for the left side when we do that and we play better with two players through the middle. Might become an option if we can ever get Agyepong fit though.

Gray Efe Hanlon Lewis
Slivka Mallan Hyndman
Boyle Flo Horgan

Midfield looks quite weak.

J-C
28-12-2018, 11:49 AM
In theory that could work but i think when we have tried it, it hasn't worked.

I don't think we've got an obvious choice for the left side when we do that and we play better with two players through the middle. Might become an option if we can ever get Agyepong fit though.


Horgan came to us a natural left sided winger, comfortable on either foot, cross with his left or cut onto his right but for some wierd reason, Lennon wants to turn him into a No.10 and through the middle. A front 3 of Kamberi, MacLaren and Boyle would scare most defences. I still think Horgan could play as a wide forward by playing him further up the park, you'd then have a choice of Kamberi, MacLaren, Boyle, Shaw and Horgan to choose from for your front 3.

WhileTheChief..
28-12-2018, 11:52 AM
Nice touch.

It was a kinda tongue in check comment hence the !

I just don’t rate the guy as highly as most on here but fully accept I’m in the minority.

Winston Ingram
28-12-2018, 11:52 AM
Let’s hope he finds the form he seemed to leave in Sydney when he’s away.

Gone from being first name on the team sheet to barely missing him for the derby.

Pace will be missed but got the impression today he was hiding.

If we start playing him in his best position he might. He’s not a left winger, a centre forward, a central midfielder, a number 10 or a wing back.

Winston Ingram
28-12-2018, 11:52 AM
Horgan came to us a natural left sided winger, comfortable on either foot, cross with his left or cut onto his right but for some wierd reason, Lennon wants to turn him into a No.10 and through the middle. A front 3 of Kamberi, MacLaren and Boyle would scare most defences. I still think Horgan could play as a wide forward by playing him further up the park, you'd then have a choice of Kamberi, MacLaren, Boyle, Shaw and Horgan to choose from for your front 3.

This.

bingo70
28-12-2018, 11:58 AM
Horgan came to us a natural left sided winger, comfortable on either foot, cross with his left or cut onto his right but for some wierd reason, Lennon wants to turn him into a No.10 and through the middle. A front 3 of Kamberi, MacLaren and Boyle would scare most defences. I still think Horgan could play as a wide forward by playing him further up the park, you'd then have a choice of Kamberi, MacLaren, Boyle, Shaw and Horgan to choose from for your front 3.

I know that's Horgan's natural position but for me the times I've seen him there or the times he's found himself out on the wing he's looked poor. I personally don't think he's got the burst of pace or the delivery to be an out and out winger.

I agree with Lennon that he's better suited playing through the middle.

JimBHibees
28-12-2018, 12:01 PM
It was a kinda tongue in check comment hence the !

I just don’t rate the guy as highly as most on here but fully accept I’m in the minority.

Fair does. :thumbsup:

B.H.F.C
28-12-2018, 12:10 PM
I know that's Horgan's natural position but for me the times I've seen him there or the times he's found himself out on the wing he's looked poor. I personally don't think he's got the burst of pace or the delivery to be an out and out winger.

I agree with Lennon that he's better suited playing through the middle.

I think Horgan’s delivery is good from out wide. We’ve scored a few goals from him getting decent balls in to the box, even recently against Livingston and Hamilton.

We get a lot of balls in to the box. The only players that want to attack them are our centre halves and David Gray though. Our strikers need to show the same kind of desire as them to get on the end of things.

bingo70
28-12-2018, 12:13 PM
I think Horgan’s delivery is good from out wide. We’ve scored a few goals from him getting decent balls in to the box, even recently against Livingston and Hamilton.

We get a lot of balls in to the box. The only players that want to attack them are our centre halves and David Gray though. Our strikers need to show the same kind of desire as them to get on the end of things.

Fair enough, I'll take your word for that, i'm not wanting to go on a crusade against the guy as i think there's something to work with there.

My perception was that when I've seen him get in dangerous areas on the wings I've never been that hopeful something will come of it, maybe i'm wrong though, sure it's happened once before :greengrin