Tommy Robinson's secret funding

[Hibbyradge]

Revealed: the hidden global network behind Tommy Robinson

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/dec/07/tommy-robinson-global-support-brexit-march?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

[lord bunberry]

Revealed: the hidden global network behind Tommy Robinson

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/dec/07/tommy-robinson-global-support-brexit-march?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
I would imagine this is the tip of the iceberg. State sponsored meddling along with people looking to gain influence seems to be the new terrorism.

[stoneyburn hibs]

I can believe that right wing nutters from the US will support him financially.
Thinking about it , so will the UK nutters.
It's scary stuff, I really do wish harm on that prick.

I don't mean to be flippant, That man, his values and supporters are a serious concern to society.

[IGRIGI]

I can believe that right wing nutters from the US will support him financially.
Thinking about it , so will the UK nutters.
It's scary stuff, I really do wish harm on that prick.

I don't mean to be flippant, That man, his values and supporters are a serious concern to society.

Yeah, tackling child grooming gangs, the ****ing audacity of that lot.

[stoneyburn hibs]

Yeah, tackling child grooming gangs, the ****ing audacity of that lot.

So many things I could say. Thanks for the reply, goodnight.

[Callum_62]

Yeah, tackling child grooming gangs, the ****ing audacity of that lot.

You mean the ones who were found guilty yeah?

You cant seriously believe Tommy Robinson is a good guy?


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[wpj]

Yeah, tackling child grooming gangs, the ****ing audacity of that lot.

Top trolling

[Pretty Boy]

:troll:

[wpj]

The march in London tomorrow under the guise of Brexit will probably be the usual supects, knuckle dragging dimwits complaing about "muslamic ray guns"

[Tobias Funke]

Yeah, tackling child grooming gangs, the ****ing audacity of that lot.

Your life must be truly awful that one of the few highlights for you is trolling random faceless folk on an Internet forum, and generally being pretty sh*te at it. I hope life gets better for you soon and you find something better and more interesting to do. Good luck mate.

[hibsbollah]

The march in London tomorrow under the guise of Brexit will probably be the usual supects, knuckle dragging dimwits complaing about "muslamic ray guns"

I get the desire to mock them, but in my opinion we need to take the far right seriously. The intelligence community consider them as big a threat as Islamist extremists in years to come. 20,000 marching on Germany, rioting. Attacks on asylum centres commonplace. The Charlottesville killer found guilty of murder yesterday. The Jo Cox murder and foiled copycat plots just this year (jailed couple complete with child named Adolf, you almost couldn't make it up). The Welsh guy who ran over the old Muslim man, because he couldn't find Corbyn or Sadiq Khan. Far right governments in charge in Hungary, Brazil. And behind it all, an interconnected online community fuelling each others paranoia and racial entitlement. Whether it's street protests that unsurprisingly end up near mosques or synogogues or slick alt right politicians, we're going to see a lot more of them.

[wpj]

I get the desire to mock them, but in my opinion we need to take the far right seriously. The intelligence community consider them as big a threat as Islamist extremists in years to come. 20,000 marching on Germany, rioting. Attacks on asylum centres commonplace. The Charlottesville killer found guilty of murder yesterday. The Jo Cox murder and foiled copycat plots just this year (jailed couple complete with child named Adolf, you almost couldn't make it up). The Welsh guy who ran over the old Muslim man, because he couldn't find Corbyn or Sadiq Khan. Far right governments in charge in Hungary, Brazil. And behind it all, an interconnected online community fuelling each others paranoia and racial entitlement. Whether it's street protests that unsurprisingly end up near mosques or synogogues or slick alt right politicians, we're going to see a lot more of them.

Although my post came across as flippant do take them very seriously. I worry what kind of world my wee girl (3yo) will grow up in.

[hibsbollah]

Although my post came across as flippant do take them very seriously. I worry what kind of world my wee girl (3yo) will grow up in.

Yeah I know. I mock them as well if I'm honest. Just the idea that you are superior (or inferior) to someone else because of your racial background is just laughable. But it's somehow become a thing.

[RyeSloan]

I get the desire to mock them, but in my opinion we need to take the far right seriously. The intelligence community consider them as big a threat as Islamist extremists in years to come. 20,000 marching on Germany, rioting. Attacks on asylum centres commonplace. The Charlottesville killer found guilty of murder yesterday. The Jo Cox murder and foiled copycat plots just this year (jailed couple complete with child named Adolf, you almost couldn't make it up). The Welsh guy who ran over the old Muslim man, because he couldn't find Corbyn or Sadiq Khan. Far right governments in charge in Hungary, Brazil. And behind it all, an interconnected online community fuelling each others paranoia and racial entitlement. Whether it's street protests that unsurprisingly end up near mosques or synogogues or slick alt right politicians, we're going to see a lot more of them.

It’s a growing issue and of course complex and multi faceted but you are bang on to say they shouldn’t be mocked or dismissed.

It could be argued that type of approach has been a driver behind the rise of the right wing or maybe better described as nationalists (or maybe popularists...as I said all very complex [emoji23])

It’s been quite stark really and lays bare the ‘open and happy Europe’ narrative that we see attached to the EU by some in the UK.

Poland’s Law and Justice party, Orban in Hungry, the rose of the AfD, The Swedish Democrat’s, Austria’s Freedom party the list goes on and on...all of them making strong electoral gains, done in power, some the largest party, some in power sharing agreements, others the largest opposition etc.

It’s easy to write this off as ill informed voting or a protest vote or the like but the strength and depth of the gains these parties have made across the continent should be taken very seriously indeed.

Not that I’m proffering much in the way of solutions (financial markets rather geo politics is more my bag [emoji12]) barring maybe the fact that maybe some of their concerns are valid at least to some degree and ignoring or pontificating on these concerns is allowing room for ever more extreme views to be peddled and then supported?

[hibsbollah]

It’s a growing issue and of course complex and multi faceted but you are bang on to say they shouldn’t be mocked or dismissed.

It could be argued that type of approach has been a driver behind the rise of the right wing or maybe better described as nationalists (or maybe popularists...as I said all very complex [emoji23])

It’s been quite stark really and lays bare the ‘open and happy Europe’ narrative that we see attached to the EU by some in the UK.

Poland’s Law and Justice party, Orban in Hungry, the rose of the AfD, The Swedish Democrat’s, Austria’s Freedom party the list goes on and on...all of them making strong electoral gains, done in power, some the largest party, some in power sharing agreements, others the largest opposition etc.

It’s easy to write this off as ill informed voting or a protest vote or the like but the strength and depth of the gains these parties have made across the continent should be taken very seriously indeed.

Not that I’m proffering much in the way of solutions (financial markets rather geo politics is more my bag [emoji12]) barring maybe the fact that maybe some of their concerns are valid at least to some degree and ignoring or pontificating on these concerns is allowing room for ever more extreme views to be peddled and then supported?

Your last sentence represents the standard and familiar line that it's somehow the fault of liberalism or multiculturalism that violent racism exists, and that 'their concerns should be listened to'. If those concerns include things like urban decay, industrial decline, lack of training, lack of government investment, council funding slashed, military personnel coming home from war to destitution, listen away. Lets do something about it. But too often 'their concerns should be listened to' is shorthand for either appeasement (which is the message I got from Hilary Clinton's bizarre speech last week), or outright apologistic talk. Or the kind of whataboutery which Trump attempted after that woman got run over in Charlottesville.

[Slavers]

Yeah I know. I mock them as well if I'm honest. Just the idea that you are superior (or inferior) to someone else because of your racial background is just laughable. But it's somehow become a thing.

Yes it's rife world wide and not only western white people are racist. This is the problem with the extreme left, I said it before the left are the most racist ideology on earth and it turns a blind eye to anti white racism.

[Callum_62]

Yes it's rife world wide and not only western white people are racist. This is the problem with the extreme left, I said it before the left are the most racist ideology on earth and it turns a blind eye to anti white racism.

Anti white racism? Yeah thats the issue we should be focusing on

The mistreatment of us whiteys


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[hibsbollah]

Yes it's rife world wide and not only western white people are racist. This is the problem with the extreme left, I said it before the left are the most racist ideology on earth and it turns a blind eye to anti white racism.

This is exactly the whataboutery I was talking about. Congratulations, you win the apologist coconut of the week:cup:

[RyeSloan]

Your last sentence represents the standard and familiar line that it's somehow the fault of liberalism or multiculturalism that violent racism exists, and that 'their concerns should be listened to'. If those concerns include things like urban decay, industrial decline, lack of training, lack of government investment, council funding slashed, military personnel coming home from war to destitution, listen away. Lets do something about it. But too often 'their concerns should be listened to' is shorthand for either appeasement (which is the message I got from Hilary Clinton's bizarre speech last week), or outright apologistic talk. Or the kind of whataboutery which Trump attempted after that woman got run over in Charlottesville.

Ach it wasn’t entirely meant like that and certainly not in the sense of appeasement of extreme views.

The rise of the popularist movement comes from somewhere though and maybe your list is some of the reason...as I said I’m not sure and I’m sure as heck not gonna try and say I know or understand all of the drivers.

What I do know though is that there is a widespread and growing following for these types of parties and castigating them, while in simple terms is the right thing to do, doesn’t really get to the root of the problem.

[Slavers]

This is exactly the whataboutery I was talking about. Congratulations, you win the apologist coconut of the week:cup:

Maybe if left thinking people were more balanced in their assessment of racism then there wouldn't be the swing to the right that the world is seeing.

[hibsbollah]

Maybe if left thinking people were more balanced in their assessment of racism then there wouldn't be the swing to the right that the world is seeing.

I understand your position. It's non-racist people's fault that there are racist people.

[JeMeSouviens]

Your last sentence represents the standard and familiar line that it's somehow the fault of liberalism or multiculturalism that violent racism exists, and that 'their concerns should be listened to'. If those concerns include things like urban decay, industrial decline, lack of training, lack of government investment, council funding slashed, military personnel coming home from war to destitution, listen away. Lets do something about it. But too often 'their concerns should be listened to' is shorthand for either appeasement (which is the message I got from Hilary Clinton's bizarre speech last week), or outright apologistic talk. Or the kind of whataboutery which Trump attempted after that woman got run over in Charlottesville.

Couldn’t agree more. Racism needs robustly challenged and called out at every turn.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Yeah, tackling child grooming gangs, the ****ing audacity of that lot.


You are obviously well versed in the programme? Peados and immigrants and refugees and anyone else who has a dislike taken to are banded together and the nations problems are all subtly linked to them by very clever people who hand it to effective mouthpieces to peddle. This is where the fascists start and not where they end.

[Newry Hibs]

The march in London tomorrow under the guise of Brexit will probably be the usual supects, knuckle dragging dimwits complaing about "muslamic ray guns"

It really isn't. It's about people who are concerned that the will of the people is going to be ignored.
The media will focus on TR being there.

[wpj]

It really isn't. It's about people who are concerned that the will of the people is going to be ignored.
The media will focus on TR being there.

TR was leading the march, good to see the counter demo was bigger

[Ozymandias]

Yeah, tackling child grooming gangs, the ****ing audacity of that lot.

I'm quite curious about you.
On many threads that have any element of liberalism, you come on, post something vaguely inflammatory that could have been lifted straight from the comments section of the Daily Mail Facebook pages, and then generally bugger off not replying when people come back with facts or valid counter points. You seem to hurl allegations of people "being snowflakes" while seemingly getting riled at people having views that might be left of yours.
Are you a basic troll, a wee laddie on the net just being a wee laddie on the net, or an angry bloke who doesn't actually like to have anything resembling a debate or discussion?

[Jack Hackett]

It really isn't. It's about people who are concerned that the will of the people is going to be ignored.
The media will focus on TR being there.

Not many there when stacked against the hundreds of thousands at the anti-brexit vote in October though, which is a bit of a mockery of the 'will of the people' mantra... but they have every right to be concerned. Having stolen a wafer thin majority on the back of a busload of lies, I think it's looking more and more likely that sanity will prevail. The 'will of the people' is overwhelmingly in favour of another referendum

[Newry Hibs]

Not many there when stacked against the hundreds of thousands at the anti-brexit vote in October though, which is a bit of a mockery of the 'will of the people' mantra... but they have every right to be concerned. Having stolen a wafer thin majority on the back of a busload of lies, I think it's looking more and more likely that sanity will prevail. The 'will of the people' is overwhelmingly in favour of another referendum

Wafer thin? Over one million more votes. How on earth do you know the will of the people is another referendum?

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Wafer thin? Over one million more votes. How on earth do you know the will of the people is another referendum?


What would Brexit supporters have to fear from another vote?

[Colr]

TR was leading the march, good to see the counter demo was bigger

Was in London today. You barely knew they were there.

Not quite the 700k for remain.

[Newry Hibs]

What would Brexit supporters have to fear from another vote?

Nothing from my point of view. But why is a another vote needed?

I suspect distrust of politics would hit rock bottom (assuming it's not already there). Any decision taken could just be challenged by people who will demand another vote. Because, you know,it was the wrong result last time.

[Ozymandias]

Wafer thin? Over one million more votes. How on earth do you know the will of the people is another referendum?

The will of the people is also only the will of those who voted. There was only around 36% of the electorate I think voted leave. I do know this is how democracy works in the UK, but the concept that the majority of people actively wanted Brexit and a change of direction / 2nd referendum is some kind of betrayal is simply wrong.

[Newry Hibs]

Was in London today. You barely knew they were there.

Not quite the 700k for remain.

Let's do away with ballot boxes and just have the police count marchers.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Nothing from my point of view. But why is a another vote needed?

I suspect distrust of politics would hit rock bottom (assuming it's not already there). Any decision taken could just be challenged by people who will demand another vote. Because, you know,it was the wrong result last time.


I don't know that it was the wrong result and I don't know if it was the right one. The Brexit saga to my mind is like accepting a mid term local council election as a general election and changing a government based on a protest vote. I don't think that it is credible to tie the leave vote from a few years ago to the options on the table now. But what is credible is that the majority of people voted to leave no matter the consequences. I don't see the harm in another vote that can be used to start the healing process.

[Jack Hackett]

Wafer thin? Over one million more votes. How on earth do you know the will of the people is another referendum?

Sounds a lot, doesn't it? Nah! Not really, when you use percentages though. 51.9 to 48.1 is hardly 'the will of the people'... unless you're tub-thumping to cover up the tissue of lies used to win. Adding up total IQ's would have been a fairer way to decide. Would have been a landslide for remain.

I know we want another ref because every single poll taken of late says so. Hundreds of thousands marching in London (the 2nd largest demo ever in the UK, beaten only by the 'Stop the War' demo in 2003 btw) says so.

The fear of another referendum by the hard leavers is palpable. Why is this?... and don't give me any 'will of the people' nonsense as justification. The vote was advisory. Who actually went ahead and decided it was final? Nobody asked me.

[JeMeSouviens]

Nothing from my point of view. But why is a another vote needed?

I suspect distrust of politics would hit rock bottom (assuming it's not already there). Any decision taken could just be challenged by people who will demand another vote. Because, you know,it was the wrong result last time.

You’re right, it’s not needed. We have a representative democracy. They should do their job and cancel brexit because it’s a ****ing stupid idea.

[Hibbyradge]

Nothing from my point of view. But why is a another vote needed?

I suspect distrust of politics would hit rock bottom (assuming it's not already there). Any decision taken could just be challenged by people who will demand another vote. Because, you know,it was the wrong result last time.

We didn't know what we were voting for. We now know what Brexit means.

It's like me saying "who wants a free meal?"

Then, after receiving a majority in favour of a free meal, revealing that it's tripe and onions and forcing everyone to eat it.

Or indeed, my Capital Punishment analogy.

Dinner means dinner. Capital Punishment means Capital Punishment. Brexit means Brexit.

Bollocks.

[Fife-Hibee]

This is why there needs to be another vote.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=25&v=SFjfbL1KWNI

[Jack Hackett]

This is why there needs to be another vote.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=25&v=SFjfbL1KWNI

Thick as pig*****... and he's not alone.



... Salt of the earth though. Knows what's what

[makaveli1875]

We didn't know what we were voting for. We now know what Brexit means.

It's like me saying "who wants a free meal?"

Then, after receiving a majority in favour of a free meal, revealing that it's tripe and onions and forcing everyone to eat it.

Or indeed, my Capital Punishment analogy.

Dinner means dinner. Capital Punishment means Capital Punishment. Brexit means Brexit.

Bollocks.

Correct me if I'm wrong the ballot made no mention of brexit.
It was leave or remain. A 5 year old could tell you what leaving something or remaining in it means. Your just playing dumb because you never got what you wanted

[Callum_62]

Correct me if I'm wrong the ballot made no mention of brexit.
It was leave or remain. A 5 year old could tell you what leaving something or remaining in it means. Your just playing dumb because you never got what you wanted

So what does leave mean?

No deal?


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[Newry Hibs]

Sounds a lot, doesn't it? Nah! Not really, when you use percentages though. 51.9 to 48.1 is hardly 'the will of the people'... unless you're tub-thumping to cover up the tissue of lies used to win. Adding up total IQ's would have been a fairer way to decide. Would have been a landslide for remain.

I know we want another ref because every single poll taken of late says so. Hundreds of thousands marching in London (the 2nd largest demo ever in the UK, beaten only by the 'Stop the War' demo in 2003 btw) says so.

The fear of another referendum by the hard leavers is palpable. Why is this?... and don't give me any 'will of the people' nonsense as justification. The vote was advisory. Who actually went ahead and decided it was final? Nobody asked me.
So what is the will of the people if not a majority?

Decisions aren't made based on the number of marchers

Are you seriously suggesting that a government wouldn't act on a referendum because it was advisory? Smacks of desperation.

[Newry Hibs]

We didn't know what we were voting for. We now know what Brexit means.

It's like me saying "who wants a free meal?"

Then, after receiving a majority in favour of a free meal, revealing that it's tripe and onions and forcing everyone to eat it.

Or indeed, my Capital Punishment analogy.

Dinner means dinner. Capital Punishment means Capital Punishment. Brexit means Brexit.

Bollocks.

Brexit means leaving the eu and all its controls. Seemed pretty straightforward at the time.

[Newry Hibs]

Thick as pig*****... and he's not alone.



... Salt of the earth though. Knows what's what

Damn. Busted. He is of course exactly like every single leave voter. All 17.4m - the largest vote in UK history.

[Mantis Toboggan]

I'm quite curious about you.
On many threads that have any element of liberalism, you come on, post something vaguely inflammatory that could have been lifted straight from the comments section of the Daily Mail Facebook pages, and then generally bugger off not replying when people come back with facts or valid counter points. You seem to hurl allegations of people "being snowflakes" while seemingly getting riled at people having views that might be left of yours.
Are you a basic troll, a wee laddie on the net just being a wee laddie on the net, or an angry bloke who doesn't actually like to have anything resembling a debate or discussion?

Just seems like an attention seeker to me.

[Moulin Yarns]

So what is the will of the people if not a majority?

Decisions aren't made based on the number of marchers

Are you seriously suggesting that a government wouldn't act on a referendum because it was advisory? Smacks of desperation.

Here is a hypothetical situation, a government decided to increase fuel taxes, then the people marched in protest and the government changed their minds.

Were they right to accept that the marchers were right or should they have stuck with the unpopular taxes?

Believe it or not we are able to change our minds.

[Hibbyradge]

Correct me if I'm wrong the ballot made no mention of brexit.
It was leave or remain. A 5 year old could tell you what leaving something or remaining in it means. Your just playing dumb because you never got what you wanted

A 5 year old could tell you what a free meal means.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Here is a hypothetical situation, a government decided to increase fuel taxes, then the people marched in protest and the government changed their minds.

Were they right to accept that the marchers were right or should they have stuck with the unpopular taxes?

Believe it or not we are able to change our minds.



did the government ask the people if they wanted a hike in fuel taxes in the first place

[Hibrandenburg]

So with hindsight the ballot paper should have read:

Remain in the EU.


Or


Accept Theresa May's deal of which you have no ****ing idea of the contents at this time.

Seems straight forward enough to me.

[Jack Hackett]

So what is the will of the people if not a majority?

Decisions aren't made based on the number of marchers

Are you seriously suggesting that a government wouldn't act on a referendum because it was advisory? Smacks of desperation.

When did roughly a third of eligible voters become a majority? You clearly don't have a clue what advisory means. Try looking it up in a dictionary. One thing it's not is a full on commitment. Enjoy your Daily Mail this morning.

... And btw, the Brexit voter turnout percentage isn't in the top 10... but crack on with bending the figures... just like Boris and the rest of the weirdos

[Jack Hackett]

Damn. Busted. He is of course exactly like every single leave voter. All 17.4m - the largest vote in UK history.

If the cap fits...

[Newry Hibs]

When did roughly a third of eligible voters become a majority? You clearly don't have a clue what advisory means. Try looking it up in a dictionary. One thing it's not is a full on commitment. Enjoy your Daily Mail this morning.

... And btw, the Brexit voter turnout percentage isn't in the top 10... but crack on with bending the figures... just like Boris and the rest of the weirdos

That's the way democracy works in this country. Missing votes are not counted as 'status quo'

The 17.4m is the largest vote for any one party/question or bloc. I didn't say turnout.

Don't remember 'advisory' being part of the debate. David Cameron didn't say 'well thanks for the vote, but we'll crack on with remain anyway'.

Daily Mail is distinctly Remain.

[Callum_62]

Daily Mail is distinctly Remain.

Agreed - In the same way Rangers fans call the Daily Record the Daily Rhebel.


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[Newry Hibs]

Here is a hypothetical situation, a government decided to increase fuel taxes, then the people marched in protest and the government changed their minds.

Were they right to accept that the marchers were right or should they have stuck with the unpopular taxes?

Believe it or not we are able to change our minds.

Here's an actual situation - A Government decides to ask 'Do you want to Remain or Leave'. Most voters say 'Leave'. What should the Government do next?

[makaveli1875]

So what does leave mean?

No deal?


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:top marks

[Slavers]

Here's an actual situation - A Government decides to ask 'Do you want to Remain or Leave'. Most voters say 'Leave'. What should the Government do next?

Then by all possible means they will try and change the outcome of the vote to remain. The corrupted corporate media, Goldman Sachs, RBS, Tony Blair, George Soros & the useful idiots on the left will be put into action in a relentless campaign to sway voters into the globalist world view.

[Callum_62]

:top marks

Given that pretty much nobody says that will be anything else bit a disaster - the Gov should plow ahead regardless?

It seems a long time ago now but i do remember Liam Fox proclaiming the easiest deal in history , 5 mins to negotiate etc

What are they negotiating if it was a no deal from the off?


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[Callum_62]

Here's an actual situation - A Government decides to ask 'Do you want to Remain or Leave'. Most voters say 'Leave'. What should the Government do next?

Given its non binding referendum I would hope the government would look at that option first - truthfully and openly disclose what it actually means from its populous and go from there

I certainly wouldn’t want a Gov that says oh well heres what u wanted to the detriment of the people


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[Newry Hibs]

Given that pretty much nobody says that will be anything else bit a disaster - the Gov should plow ahead regardless?

It seems a long time ago now but i do remember Liam Fox proclaiming the easiest deal in history , 5 mins to negotiate etc

What are they negotiating if it was a no deal from the off?


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It was widely suggested that no deal would be better than a bad deal.

The debate now is about the bad deal. I agree that the last 2 years have been wasted if this is what has been agreed.

[Callum_62]

It was widely suggested that no deal would be better than a bad deal.

The debate now is about the bad deal. I agree that the last 2 years have been wasted if this is what has been agreed.

And now its widely suggested that no deal is the worst deal


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[Newry Hibs]

Given its non binding referendum I would hope the government would look at that option first - truthfully and openly disclose what it actually means from its populous and go from there

I certainly wouldn’t want a Gov that says oh well heres what u wanted to the detriment of the people


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Still going with the non-binding referendum.
Then why have it if the government knows best?

[Hibrandenburg]

Here's an actual situation - A Government decides to ask 'Do you want to Remain or Leave'. Most voters say 'Leave'. What should the Government do next?

It's a ****ing stupid question in the first place. The one option is so vague that it's open to so many different interpretations that you can have 17.4 million voters all voting for different versions of what 'leave' actually means.

[makaveli1875]

Given that pretty much nobody says that will be anything else bit a disaster - the Gov should plow ahead regardless?

It seems a long time ago now but i do remember Liam Fox proclaiming the easiest deal in history , 5 mins to negotiate etc

What are they negotiating if it was a no deal from the off?


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You appear to be in New Zealand , not in the EU . Is life a disaster there ?

[Callum_62]

Still going with the non-binding referendum.
Then why have it if the government knows best?

Thats a question for the party sitting in government


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[Callum_62]

You appear to be in New Zealand , not in the EU . Is life a disaster there ?

Pretty silly point as NZ was never in the EU

While everyday life in the UK is intertwined with the EU


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[JeMeSouviens]

Still going with the non-binding referendum.
Then why have it if the government knows best?

Internal Tory politics. Cameron thought he could shut up their lunatic fringe. That's the only reason we had the stupid thing in the first place and it's the only reason we're still ploughing ahead with it when it's clearly a stupid idea.

[McSwanky]

Anyway, that Tommy Robinson, eh?

[Newry Hibs]

Internal Tory politics. Cameron thought he could shut up their lunatic fringe. That's the only reason we had the stupid thing in the first place and it's the only reason we're still ploughing ahead with it when it's clearly a stupid idea.

I actually agree that's why Cameron had it to win the election and keep ukip at bay. He was probably also advised that he would win the referendum.

Don't agree on the clearly a stupid idea.

[JeMeSouviens]

I actually agree that's why Cameron had it to win the election and keep ukip at bay. He was probably also advised that he would win the referendum.

Don't agree on the clearly a stupid idea.

You might not but swathes of Tory MPs do. They're only going along with it to keep their party together. The "will of the people" guff is just a smokescreen. You never, ever hear a politician invoke "the will of the people" unless by an amazing coincidence it agrees with what they want to do anyway.

[JeMeSouviens]

... and whether it's still the "will of the people" is, at best, deeply questionable.

[Newry Hibs]

... and whether it's still the "will of the people" is, at best, deeply questionable.

Maybe we need a second referendum?


Just kidding!

[Moulin Yarns]

Maybe we need a second referendum?


Just kidding!

No maybe about it.

Definitely not kidding, the will of the people has almost certainly changed.

[Newry Hibs]

No maybe about it.

Definitely not kidding, the will of the people has almost certainly changed.

How do you know?

Maybe because remainers are being very vocal at the moment and getting plenty of air time.

Leavers, however, don't need to be vocal* as there already was a vote.


*about a second referendum anyway. Plenty of voice needed for the ridiculous May deal.

[Moulin Yarns]

How do you know?

Maybe because remainers are being very vocal at the moment and getting plenty of air time.

Leavers, however, don't need to be vocal* as there already was a vote.


*about a second referendum anyway. Plenty of voice needed for the ridiculous May deal.

How do I know?

Have you seen the polls, have you listened to MPs?

Have you any idea what a clusterbuarach this whole Brexit thing is?

Why wouldn't you want to have a 2nd referendum if you believe your leave voters are the silent majority?

[makaveli1875]

How do I know?

Have you seen the polls, have you listened to MPs?

Have you any idea what a clusterbuarach this whole Brexit thing is?

Why wouldn't you want to have a 2nd referendum if you believe your leave voters are the silent majority?

Did you see the polls before the referendum ? remain was winning by a country mile

[Moulin Yarns]

Did you see the polls before the referendum ? remain was winning by a country mile

The problem with that was that remainders believed that it was a foregone conclusion and did not bother to vote.

[JeMeSouviens]

Did you see the polls before the referendum ? remain was winning by a country mile

Frankly, that's just bollocks.

The week before the referendum, 3/12 polls put leave ahead. The week before that 9/13 had leave ahead. The aggregated polls did have remain ahead but only by 1-2%.

Contrast with now, when polling should in theory be more accurate because it's weighted by recalled vote. The last poll that put leave ahead was in March, 9 months ago!

[Newry Hibs]

So we should run government policy by what opinion polls say?
They can be wrong.

Fwiw the bookies had remain as odds on. I think leave was 3/1.

[makaveli1875]

Frankly, that's just bollocks.

The week before the referendum, 3/12 polls put leave ahead. The week before that 9/13 had leave ahead. The aggregated polls did have remain ahead but only by 1-2%.

Contrast with now, when polling should in theory be more accurate because it's weighted by recalled vote. The last poll that put leave ahead was in March, 9 months ago!

i think your talking the bollocks . What credible polls had leave ahead ? And what evidence is there that polling is more accurate now than it was a couple of years ago ?

[JeMeSouviens]

So we should run government policy by what opinion polls say?
They can be wrong.

Fwiw the bookies had remain as odds on. I think leave was 3/1.

No, but if we're going to do something* that the majority of parliamentarians think is detrimental to the country, based on a very close popular vote, and there is considerable evidence that that very slim winning margin may have evaporated, then the least we should do is check again.


* as said before, I'm for parliament cancelling without ref#2.

[JeMeSouviens]

i think your talking the bollocks . What credible polls had leave ahead ? And what evidence is there that polling is more accurate now than it was a couple of years ago ?

1. Go and check, then come back and apologise.
2. I said "in theory". Go and read about weighting by recalled vote then come back and apologise.

[Newry Hibs]

No, but if we're going to do something* that the majority of parliamentarians think is detrimental to the country, based on a very close popular vote, and there is considerable evidence that that very slim winning margin may have evaporated, then the least we should do is check again.


* as said before, I'm for parliament cancelling without ref#2.


Those same parliamentarians gave 'us' a vote. They would have to now say that 'we' are not good enough to make such decisions. Don't think that will go down well come the next election when 'we' are asked to vote them back in again.

They are also supposed to work on behalf of the people. The people said leave.

[JeMeSouviens]

Those same parliamentarians gave 'us' a vote. They would have to now say that 'we' are not good enough to make such decisions. Don't think that will go down well come the next election when 'we' are asked to vote them back in again.

They are also supposed to work on behalf of the people. The people said leave.

The vast majority of people are in no way equipped to take such decisions (I include myself in that btw). I'm not altogether sure that many of our MPs are all that great shakes either tbh, but taking such decisions on our behalf *is* what they are supposed to do.

[Newry Hibs]

The vast majority of people are in no way equipped to take such decisions (I include myself in that btw). I'm not altogether sure that many of our MPs are all that great shakes either tbh, but taking such decisions on our behalf *is* what they are supposed to do.
Yes they should govern. But then dont give us a say and then ignore it.

[JeMeSouviens]

Yes they should govern. But then dont give us a say and then ignore it.

They shouldn't have given you a say, they should ignore you. 2 wrongs don't make a right. :wink:

[Rocky]

Yes they should govern. But then dont give us a say and then ignore it.

Its perfectly clear what Leavers want:

Soft Brexit
Hard Brexit
Chequers
Canada +
Canada +++
Norway For Now
Norway +
EEA
EFTA
SM
No SM
May’s Deal
No Deal
Managed No Deal
Backstop
No Backstop
Jobs-First Brexit
Lexit
& a Red, White and Blue Brexit

So just ... do that!

****

The above is pinched from Twitter and rather neatly sums up the problem for me. Which of those options did you have in mind when you voted leave? How many others of the 17 million voted for the same option? If the option they wanted isn't on the table any more how many would prefer remain to the option that we do actually have?

This is why I don't get the argument that a second referendum is in any way a betrayal of the will of the people. The first referendum determined the direction, the last two years have been about putting the meat on the bones of that option (albeit in truly shambolic fashion) - what is anti democratic about putting the final choice back to the people? It's the same people we'd ask, so why would they object to being consulted on something concrete when they were happy to be asked their views on something that wasn't clearly articulated?

[JeMeSouviens]

Its perfectly clear what Leavers want:

Soft Brexit
Hard Brexit
Chequers
Canada +
Canada +++
Norway For Now
Norway +
EEA
EFTA
SM
No SM
May’s Deal
No Deal
Managed No Deal
Backstop
No Backstop
Jobs-First Brexit
Lexit
& a Red, White and Blue Brexit

So just ... do that!

****

The above is pinched from Twitter and rather neatly sums up the problem for me. Which of those options did you have in mind when you voted leave? How many others of the 17 million voted for the same option? If the option they wanted isn't on the table any more how many would prefer remain to the option that we do actually have?

This is why I don't get the argument that a second referendum is in any way a betrayal of the will of the people. The first referendum determined the direction, the last two years have been about putting the meat on the bones of that option (albeit in truly shambolic fashion) - what is anti democratic about putting the final choice back to the people? It's the same people we'd ask, so why would they object to being consulted on something concrete when they were happy to be asked their views on something that wasn't clearly articulated?



And bear in mind that only a tiny number of them (less than 2 in 50) have to prefer remain to reverse the fabled "will of the people".

[Newry Hibs]

Its perfectly clear what Leavers want:

Soft Brexit
Hard Brexit
Chequers
Canada +
Canada +++
Norway For Now
Norway +
EEA
EFTA
SM
No SM
May’s Deal
No Deal
Managed No Deal
Backstop
No Backstop
Jobs-First Brexit
Lexit
& a Red, White and Blue Brexit

So just ... do that!

****

The above is pinched from Twitter and rather neatly sums up the problem for me. Which of those options did you have in mind when you voted leave? How many others of the 17 million voted for the same option? If the option they wanted isn't on the table any more how many would prefer remain to the option that we do actually have?

This is why I don't get the argument that a second referendum is in any way a betrayal of the will of the people. The first referendum determined the direction, the last two years have been about putting the meat on the bones of that option (albeit in truly shambolic fashion) - what is anti democratic about putting the final choice back to the people? It's the same people we'd ask, so why would they object to being consulted on something concrete when they were happy to be asked their views on something that wasn't clearly articulated?

I voted to leave the eu with all and any of it's controls on the uk.
It is the last 2 years of dicking about that has clouded the issue.

Maybe there should be a vote for which type of brexit we get. I.e. no remain option. After all, the first referendum determined the direction.

[Moulin Yarns]

I voted to leave the eu with all and any of it's controls on the uk.
It is the last 2 years of dicking about that has clouded the issue.

Maybe there should be a vote for which type of brexit we get. I.e. no remain option. After all, the first referendum determined the direction.

So you voted for none of the above.

[Rocky]

I voted to leave the eu with all and any of it's controls on the uk.
It is the last 2 years of dicking about that has clouded the issue.

Maybe there should be a vote for which type of brexit we get. I.e. no remain option. After all, the first referendum determined the direction.

So when Daniel Hannan came out before the referendum and said 'no one is talking about leaving the single market' do you think that the people who believed him and voted leave on that basis should have their votes discounted? They didn't want the same thing as you after all.

[makaveli1875]

So when Daniel Hannan came out before the referendum and said 'no one is talking about leaving the single market' do you think that the people who believed him and voted leave on that basis should have their votes discounted? They didn't want the same thing as you after all.

All people that voted leave wanted the same thing , to leave .

[Rocky]

All people that voted leave wanted the same thing , to leave .

To stick with that one example, Daniel Hannan, one of the most prominent leavers, said that he didn't want to leave single market. Newry Hibs apparently did want to leave single market if I've understood him correctly. Therefore I'd respectfully disagree that all leavers voted for the same thing.

[makaveli1875]

To stick with that one example, Daniel Hannan, one of the most prominent leavers, said that he didn't want to leave single market. Newry Hibs apparently did want to leave single market if I've understood him correctly. Therefore I'd respectfully disagree that all leavers voted for the same thing.

To leave the EU is to leave the single market , everybody knew that . The EU were quite clear about that . And iv never even heard of Daniel Hannan

[JeMeSouviens]

To leave the EU is to leave the single market , everybody knew that . The EU were quite clear about that . And iv never even heard of Daniel Hannan

Putting the "un" in uninformed. :rolleyes:

The EU were clear that May's red lines meant leaving the SM, not that leaving the EU meant that. There is a v famous slide from Michel Barnier (that you probably won't have heard of :rolleyes:).

http://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/rngs/BRITAIN-EU/01006039065/brexit.jpg

[Rocky]

To leave the EU is to leave the single market , everybody knew that . The EU were quite clear about that . And iv never even heard of Daniel Hannan

Daniel Hannan has 121,000 followers on Twitter and was very clear before the referendum that a leave vote did not mean leaving the SM. Are you suggesting that literally no-one believed him and no-one took into account what he said when casting their vote? Like I said this is just one single example that shows that not everyone voted for the same thing. It doesn't take very many of these examples to eliminate the leave majority. £350m for the NHS anyone? Lies about having no control over EU immigration when in fact it's the UK government who've chosen not to implement rules that would limit immigration from EU countries?

[Moulin Yarns]

Daniel Hannan has 121,000 followers on Twitter and was very clear before the referendum that a leave vote did not mean leaving the SM. Are you suggesting that literally no-one believed him and no-one took into account what he said when casting their vote? Like I said this is just one single example that shows that not everyone voted for the same thing. It doesn't take very many of these examples to eliminate the leave majority. £350m for the NHS anyone? Lies about having no control over EU immigration when in fact it's the UK government who've chosen not to implement rules that would limit immigration from EU countries?

It's like one of those elimination things. Everyone stand up, OK those that want to stay in the CFP sit down, next those who want to stop Eastern Europeans taking their jobs sit down. And so on.

[beensaidbefore]

There seems to be a lot more aggression and name calling coming from all these stay together chaps... Oh the irony.

[JeMeSouviens]

There seems to be a lot more aggression and name calling coming from all these stay together chaps... Oh the irony.

I'm quite happy to argue the toss with people that disagree with me. What I can't abide is people who come on to make definitive statements when it's painfully obvious they don't have the first ****ing clue about the basics.

[beensaidbefore]

I'm quite happy to argue the toss with people that disagree with me. What I can't abide is people who come on to make definitive statements when it's painfully obvious they don't have the first ****ing clue about the basics.

That's a fair point. If you read through this thread though, most of the snidey, name calling and superiority comes from those who favour remain. I find it ironic given a lot of their argument is based on how big bullies the leave voters are.

[Newry Hibs]

So when Daniel Hannan came out before the referendum and said 'no one is talking about leaving the single market' do you think that the people who believed him and voted leave on that basis should have their votes discounted? They didn't want the same thing as you after all.
Never heard of Daniel hannan. I'm not on Twitter either. We could pick and choose individual who said what's all day.

I seem to remember David Cameron painting a very bleak future the day after the referendum. Maybe anyone who believed the prime minister could maybe get their vote back.

There was only one question. Leave or remain.
By your logic anyone who votes for a party has to agree with everythin that party has promised.

[Newry Hibs]

To stick with that one example, Daniel Hannan, one of the most prominent leavers, said that he didn't want to leave single market. Newry Hibs apparently did want to leave single market if I've understood him correctly. Therefore I'd respectfully disagree that all leavers voted for the same thing.

The referendum was pitched as leave. It was remainers who said that means eveything.

Are you also saying all that all remainers have exactly the same thoughts about the eu?

[Newry Hibs]

I'm quite happy to argue the toss with people that disagree with me. What I can't abide is people who come on to make definitive statements when it's painfully obvious they don't have the first ****ing clue about the basics.

????

[Fife-Hibee]

All people that voted leave wanted the same thing , to leave .

So simply "to leave". No further relations with the EU in any shape or form?

[JeMeSouviens]

????

Not directed at you.

[Newry Hibs]

So simply "to leave". No further relations with the EU in any shape or form?

No one has said that. Sure we will still trade with the eu and vice versa. People will still move there and vice versa. I'm sure people will still get sunburnt in Spain and rained on in Edinburgh.

It's how we deal with the eu that is to change.

[beensaidbefore]

So simply "to leave". No further relations with the EU in any shape or form?

To leave their control, rules, influence. Whatever you may want to call it, and to make decisions for the benefit of our country first and foremost. That perhaps means competing for resources/contracts/workforce but we will make decisions about our own needs and direction.

If that means we openly invite half of Europe back then so be it, but it would be our decision. Key to it all, is the ability to look at our island and say what do wee need without worrying about folk in Greece or Germany.

[JeMeSouviens]

Never heard of Daniel hannan. I'm not on Twitter either. We could pick and choose individual who said what's all day.

I seem to remember David Cameron painting a very bleak future the day after the referendum. Maybe anyone who believed the prime minister could maybe get their vote back.

There was only one question. Leave or remain.
By your logic anyone who votes for a party has to agree with everythin that party has promised.

Hannan is a Tory MEP, a long term eurosceptic and ideologue, one of the founders of Vote Leave. The ERG was his idea and he was its original secretary. Described by the FT as "the high priest of Brexit" and by the Guardian as "the man who brought you Brexit".

[JeMeSouviens]

No one has said that. Sure we will still trade with the eu and vice versa. People will still move there and vice versa. I'm sure people will still get sunburnt in Spain and rained on in Edinburgh.

It's how we deal with the eu that is to change.

Or not, with a bit of luck. :wink:

[Newry Hibs]

Not directed at you.

☺. Thought things had ramped up there!

[bigwheel]

To leave their control, rules, influence. Whatever you may want to call it, and to make decisions for the benefit of our country first and foremost. That perhaps means competing for resources/contracts/workforce but we will make decisions about our own needs and direction.

If that means we openly invite half of Europe back then so be it, but it would be our decision. Key to it all, is the ability to look at our island and say what do wee need without worrying about folk in Greece or Germany.


It is such an alien view to me this, I'm asking this question genuinely to understand others perspectives:

...and you are happy that by leaving the interconnected world of the EU even when it makes us less prosperous, less global influence and have less opportunities?

[Rocky]

Never heard of Daniel hannan. I'm not on Twitter either. We could pick and choose individual who said what's all day.

I seem to remember David Cameron painting a very bleak future the day after the referendum. Maybe anyone who believed the prime minister could maybe get their vote back.

There was only one question. Leave or remain.
By your logic anyone who votes for a party has to agree with everythin that party has promised.

No, by my logic you choose to vote for a party based on their documented intentions in their manifesto, then you hold them accountable at the polls again five years later. There was no documented leave proposal at the time of the referendum (and in fact there still isn't, only a withdrawal agreement) so where's the harm in having a vote again once it's documented? If all 17 million leavers wanted the same thing and Theresa May is delivering that very thing what's to worry about?

[beensaidbefore]

It is such an alien view to me this, I'm asking this question genuinely to understand others perspectives:

...and you are happy that by leaving the interconnected world of the EU even when it makes us less prosperous, less global influence and have less opportunities?

My stance is very similar to the independence where I voted yes. I feel that having the shackles taken off will allow us to undercut the EU if we see fit. We can also into trade agreements with them if that works for us. Being bale to negotiate trade deals without making allowances for our European neighbours could also work in our advantage, we just don't really know.

I can see why a leap in the dark seems crazy, but keeping the status quo does to me when we have an opportunity for so much more.

I genuinely believe we will be the test case, if it goes OK for us I can see a few other countries following suit.

[Newry Hibs]

No, by my logic you choose to vote for a party based on their documented intentions in their manifesto, then you hold them accountable at the polls again five years later. There was no documented leave proposal at the time of the referendum (and in fact there still isn't, only a withdrawal agreement) so where's the harm in having a vote again once it's documented? If all 17 million leavers wanted the same thing and Theresa May is delivering that very thing what's to worry about?

I dont think there should be a second vote as it sets a precedent and is frankly undemocratic.
Also we already had one.

I don't think there will be one anytime soon as there is a certain time frame required . I think there would be a general election before a second vote.

I believe the case for brexit can be made again properly when May has stopped making an arse of it.

[bigwheel]

My stance is very similar to the independence where I voted yes. I feel that having the shackles taken off will allow us to undercut the EU if we see fit. We can also into trade agreements with them if that works for us. Being bale to negotiate trade deals without making allowances for our European neighbours could also work in our advantage, we just don't really know.

I can see why a leap in the dark seems crazy, but keeping the status quo does to me when we have an opportunity for so much more.

I genuinely believe we will be the test case, if it goes OK for us I can see a few other countries following suit.

It's interesting to me this....

We do know some things...for example: The EU is our single biggest trading partner...44% of all our exports...and if we undercut them, they would retaliate...they would be the winner in that scenario as we overall have a trade deficit with the EU..we buy more than we sell...

For our generations, the only economic forecasts are that we will be significantly worse off. Yet you and many others still support the leave perspective.

It tells me there are major causes of dissatisfaction with the current state, if people are willing to be worse off on that chance something good happens...

Very telling..


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[beensaidbefore]

It's interesting to me this....

We do know some things...for example: The EU is our single biggest trading partner...44% of all our exports...and if we undercut them, they would retaliate...they would be the winner in that scenario as we overall have a trade deficit with the EU..we buy more than we sell...

For our generations, the only economic forecasts are that we will be significantly worse off. Yet you and many others still support the leave perspective.

It tells me there are major causes of dissatisfaction with the current state, if people are willing to be worse off on that chance something good happens...

Very telling..


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I think that is a very fair summary tbh.

Undeniably a massive gamble, and even if it does come good it might not for quite a while, but I think it will be worth it. Adopt an Oz style points based immigration policy, invite whoever we like from allover the world and grow. Its not about keeping Johnny foreigner out, but being able to pick and choose would be an advantage for a start. There are undoubtedly thousands of EU nationals who have made invaluable contributions to our country, and I don't see why this would have to stop really. Working holiday visas, student scholarships, sponsorship etc etc. But I think that should be extended fairly accross the board.

[Hibbyradge]

And bear in mind that only a tiny number of them (less than 2 in 50) have to prefer remain to reverse the fabled "will of the people".

Less than 2 in 100, no?

[JeMeSouviens]

Less than 2 in 100, no?

I couldn't remember the unrounded percentages but if we take 52:48 then 2% of the total have to switch from Leave to Remain, hence 2 out of 52. not 2 out of 100. Which is slightly more than 2 out of 50. Oh well, I was close, think I had 2/48 in my head.

[JeMeSouviens]

I think that is a very fair summary tbh.

Undeniably a massive gamble, and even if it does come good it might not for quite a while, but I think it will be worth it. Adopt an Oz style points based immigration policy, invite whoever we like from allover the world and grow. Its not about keeping Johnny foreigner out, but being able to pick and choose would be an advantage for a start. There are undoubtedly thousands of EU nationals who have made invaluable contributions to our country, and I don't see why this would have to stop really. Working holiday visas, student scholarships, sponsorship etc etc. But I think that should be extended fairly accross the board.

The thing is though that the UK doesn't have the negotiating power of the EU due to much smaller size, so to get better deals than the EU can manage we'd have to undercut them on regulations (food standards, environmental protection, workers' rights etc). It's a right wing fantasy and might make the country richer in the long term but it would be de'il tak the hindmost.

[Hibbyradge]

I couldn't remember the unrounded percentages but if we take 52:48 then 2% of the total have to switch from Leave to Remain, hence 2 out of 52. not 2 out of 100. Which is slightly more than 2 out of 50. Oh well, I was close, think I had 2/48 in my head.

2 out of 50 is 4%. It only needs 2% of leave voters to change their mind.

Or have I missed the point completely?

[makaveli1875]

I couldn't remember the unrounded percentages but if we take 52:48 then 2% of the total have to switch from Leave to Remain, hence 2 out of 52. not 2 out of 100. Which is slightly more than 2 out of 50. Oh well, I was close, think I had 2/48 in my head.

And if your switch doesn't happen then what? More greeting and another referendum

[Fife-Hibee]

No one has said that. Sure we will still trade with the eu and vice versa. People will still move there and vice versa. I'm sure people will still get sunburnt in Spain and rained on in Edinburgh.

It's how we deal with the eu that is to change.

What you're describing though, requires negotiations and deals. We can't just tell the EU that we don't want anything to do with their own rules, but still wish to travel back and forth freely. It's completely unrealistic.


To leave their control, rules, influence. Whatever you may want to call it, and to make decisions for the benefit of our country first and foremost. That perhaps means competing for resources/contracts/workforce but we will make decisions about our own needs and direction.

If that means we openly invite half of Europe back then so be it, but it would be our decision. Key to it all, is the ability to look at our island and say what do wee need without worrying about folk in Greece or Germany.

It wouldn't be "our" decision. It would be the UK Governments decisions, decisions that Scotland is at odds with, more often than not. You seem to be under the impression that the EU has far more control over the UK than it actually does though. It's influences over the UK pale in comparison to the UK's influences over Scotland.

[JeMeSouviens]

2 out of 50 is 4%. It only needs 2% of leave voters to change their mind.

Or have I missed the point completely?

I’ve failed to explain myself, again. Suffice to say the swing needed is tiny.

[JeMeSouviens]

And if your switch doesn't happen then what? More greeting and another referendum

Then we are well and truly ****ed esp if no deal is on the ballot.

[beensaidbefore]

The thing is though that the UK doesn't have the negotiating power of the EU due to much smaller size, so to get better deals than the EU can manage we'd have to undercut them on regulations (food standards, environmental protection, workers' rights etc). It's a right wing fantasy and might make the country richer in the long term but it would be de'il tak the hindmost.


I understand your point, but don't think it's quite as cut and dry as that. Should we have the right to decide the direction of the country, independent of a central government elsewhere, I believe so. With that comes some pros and cons. I'm not for a moment suggestion it's all go a be rosey, but as iv said, neither is the status quo.

[beensaidbefore]

What you're describing though, requires negotiations and deals. We can't just tell the EU that we don't want anything to do with their own rules, but still wish to travel back and forth freely. It's completely unrealistic.



It wouldn't be "our" decision. It would be the UK Governments decisions, decisions that Scotland is at odds with, more often than not. You seem to be under the impression that the EU has far more control over the UK than it actually does though. It's influences over the UK pale in comparison to the UK's influences over Scotland.


I belive Scotland is in line for more powers once the dust settles. Gotta live in hope🤞🤞

[Hibernia&Alba]

Thick as pig*****... and he's not alone.



... Salt of the earth though. Knows what's what

So this genius in Barnsley voted for Brexit in order to stop immigration. He then says freedom of movement of EU citizens is 'fair enough', though that's exactly what Brexit will prevent. In fact we will need more immigration from outside the EU post-Brexit. I believe this is what is termed 'cognitive dissonance'.

[RyeSloan]

The thing is though that the UK doesn't have the negotiating power of the EU due to much smaller size, so to get better deals than the EU can manage we'd have to undercut them on regulations (food standards, environmental protection, workers' rights etc). It's a right wing fantasy and might make the country richer in the long term but it would be de'il tak the hindmost.

Possibly.

But then any deal made under the EU needs to factor in huge influence from Europes heavyweights and their vested interests.

Striking deals without having to appease French farmers or Germany’s heavy industry may lead to better, more tailored deals for the UK.

A good deal by its nature is a win win deal. That could easily be seen to be delivered by providing higher, better or more agile goods or services.

In the days before the CE mark you had British Standards these were not always the lowest and were in some cases superior to standards in other countries. Absolutely no reason why they couldn’t be so again.

So while your statement could be true I’d suggest your presumption that the only way we could outperform a EU brokered deal by undercutting is exactly that, a presumption.

Oh and one final (lengthy! [emoji23]) point it’s no fantasy (right wing or not) to imagine better and more effective regulation rather than the likes of the sprawling Mifid II that took billions of pounds to implement years late because it took so long for those regulating to decipher their own regulations. Or the ridiculously complex GDPR or the proposed copyright laws etc. etc.

So while their is no guarantee a UK government (elected of course by its own citizens on the relevant manifesto) would actually manage to do so there is also no guarantee that it won’t and a reasonable likelihood that in some cases (see above) that it actually would.

[JeMeSouviens]

Possibly.

But then any deal made under the EU needs to factor in huge influence from Europes heavyweights and their vested interests.

Striking deals without having to appease French farmers or Germany’s heavy industry may lead to better, more tailored deals for the UK.

A good deal by its nature is a win win deal. That could easily be seen to be delivered by providing higher, better or more agile goods or services.

In the days before the CE mark you had British Standards these were not always the lowest and were in some cases superior to standards in other countries. Absolutely no reason why they couldn’t be so again.

So while your statement could be true I’d suggest your presumption that the only way we could outperform a EU brokered deal by undercutting is exactly that, a presumption.

Oh and one final (lengthy! [emoji23]) point it’s no fantasy (right wing or not) to imagine better and more effective regulation rather than the likes of the sprawling Mifid II that took billions of pounds to implement years late because it took so long for those regulating to decipher their own regulations. Or the ridiculously complex GDPR or the proposed copyright laws etc. etc.

So while their is no guarantee a UK government (elected of course by its own citizens on the relevant manifesto) would actually manage to do so there is also no guarantee that it won’t and a reasonable likelihood that in some cases (see above) that it actually would.

Well it’s pretty much moot anyway since apart from the WTO nutters, any Tory or Lab deal would effectively tie us to eu regs. I was trying to imagine a scenario where the UK could prosper and that’s all I could come up with. The reality if it goes ahead is damage limitation.

[Fife-Hibee]

I belive Scotland is in line for more powers once the dust settles. Gotta live in hope🤞🤞

You do realize the Scottish Parliament and devolution occured under pressure from the EU, as opposed to the will of the UK Government? What do you think they're going to gradually do over the coming decades in regards to Scottish devolution?

I'll tell you what they'll do. Piece by piece, they'll take back more and more control.

[RyeSloan]

You do realize the Scottish Parliament and devolution occured under pressure from the EU, as opposed to the will of the UK Government? What do you think they're going to gradually do over the coming decades in regards to Scottish devolution?

I'll tell you what they'll do. Piece by piece, they'll take back more and more control.

Who’s they? The ‘ever closer union’ EU?

[Callum_62]

Seeing as it was established by EU pressure to the UK Gov, I highly doubt the EU will be the one shutting it down

The whole union argument is mute now

We explicitly seen how one union (EU) treated one of its smaller members in direct contrast to the UK

I know what I would prefer to be part of


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Fife-Hibee]

Who’s they? The ‘ever closer union’ EU?

As i've pointed out already, the EU's influence over it's member states is nowhere close to the level that the UK holds over Scotland. If it wasn't for the EU, "Scotland" wouldn't even be recognized on the map anymore.

[marinello59]

You do realize the Scottish Parliament and devolution occured under pressure from the EU, as opposed to the will of the UK Government? What do you think they're going to gradually do over the coming decades in regards to Scottish devolution?

I'll tell you what they'll do. Piece by piece, they'll take back more and more control.

Go on then. Explain how the EU brought about the Scottish Parliament. Use facts though.
Don’t forget to mention the years of hard work done by the cross party Scottish Constitutional Convention or the fact that it was one of the priorities of the first term of Blair’s Labour Government. ( They weren’t all bad. :greengrin )
Donald Dewar , Secretary of State for Scotland on launching the Scotland Act. “There shall be a Scottish Parliament. I like that.” Looks like the will of at least one member of the UK Government.

[RyeSloan]

As i've pointed out already, the EU's influence over it's member states is nowhere close to the level that the UK holds over Scotland. If it wasn't for the EU, "Scotland" wouldn't even be recognized on the map anymore.

Sure. The EU saved Scotland for being wiped off the map. What a load of bollocks.

Edit: And you never answered the question. Who are the ‘they’ you were referring to?

[Jack Hackett]

I’ve failed to explain myself, again. Suffice to say the swing needed is tiny.

Swing aside, there are approximately 1.5m new voters since the referendum, added to the age group who voted overwhelmingly in favour of remain. Take away the elderly who have since left us for pastures new, an age group who voted overwhelmingly in favour of leave, and you can understand the reluctance of the leavers for another vote.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/567922/distribution-of-eu-referendum-votes-by-age-and-gender-uk/

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Swing aside, there are approximately 1.5m new voters since the referendum, added to the age group who voted overwhelmingly in favour of remain. Take away the elderly who have since left us for pastures new, an age group who voted overwhelmingly in favour of leave, and you can understand the reluctance of the leavers for another vote.

Gawn the young team! 😉