PDA

View Full Version : Will us Hibs fans ever learn from the past?



GreenArmyyy!
07-12-2018, 09:17 AM
DISCUSSION-

I actually can’t believe the amount of people actually contemplating getting rid of Lennon to be honest.

Have we not learned our lesson about chopping and changing managers looking for that instant success?!

It started with Mixu, we were unhappy with the mediocrity, then on to Hughes who got us in to 4th place, Europe and was sacked 7 games in to the next season, then on to Colin (bag of sweeties) Calderwood, then on to Fenlon who got us to back to back Scottish cup finals, granted we got pumped. Last but not least we are faced with the mother of them all in the form of Terry Butcher and Maurice Malpas as we cliff dropped to relegation.

No disrespect to Sir Alan Stubbs but Lennon achieved what he couldn’t and got us out of the Championship at the first time of asking whilst taking us to another Scottish cup semi final. He then lead us to 4th place in the SPFL table in one of the most competitive leagues in years, not only that but the style of football was pretty spectacular to watch at times. He got us further than any manager has done in the last 30 years in Europe this season.

At this point the heart of the squad was ripped out from under him, losing Allan, McGeouch, McGinn and Barker, 4 of out 5 from arguably the best midfield in the country. Now let’s be honest, Hibs may have spent a bit of money this summer but it’s a drop in the ocean compared to the huge revenue increases since winning the Scottish cup, average attendance doubling, 2 cup finals in the cup winning season, merchandise sales following the SC win, 4th place last season, 3 European rounds then the sale of both McGinn and Murray.

The bad luck doesn’t stop there for Lennon, we’ve had Sir David Gray who has been brilliant when he’s played this season but it’s been a case of play 1 game and out for 3 or 4, out number 1 keeper has been injured for the first half of the season, we’ve had defensive injuries every single week, MacLaren can’t get fit either and I’ve got zero explanation for the form of Kamberi.

There’s not a manager in the world that could emulate last seasons success with the summer and budget we’ve had, it’s simply not possible.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t think Lennon is exempt from criticism, some of the selections and substitutions over the last few weeks have been strange to say the least (Kamberi off for Slivka when we are losing at home springs to mind). Chopping and changing 4/5/6 players every week cannot be helping the squad either but I do understand he’s trying almost anything to get a win right now.

I’m very confident that Lennon will turn our season around if he’s given funds in January, we need to get behind him and the team till then though. The thought of going in to the Celtic, Rangers double header and Hearts game on this form is enough to give anyone sleepless nights but maybe if we get behind the team we can spark some life back in to our season. What else can we do right now but have blind faith in our boys to sort it out?

Smartie
07-12-2018, 09:24 AM
DISCUSSION-

I actually can’t believe the amount of people actually contemplating getting rid of Lennon to be honest.

Have we not learned our lesson about chopping and changing managers looking for that instant success?!

It started with Mixu, we were unhappy with the mediocrity, then on to Hughes who got us in to 4th place, Europe and was sacked 7 games in to the next season, then on to Colin (bag of sweeties) Calderwood, then on to Fenlon who got us to back to back Scottish cup finals, granted we got pumped. Last but not least we are faced with the mother of them all in the form of Terry Butcher and Maurice Malpas as we cliff dropped to relegation.

No disrespect to Sir Alan Stubbs but Lennon achieved what he couldn’t and got us out of the Championship at the first time of asking whilst taking us to another Scottish cup semi final. He then lead us to 4th place in the SPFL table in one of the most competitive leagues in years, not only that but the style of football was pretty spectacular to watch at times. He got us further than any manager has done in the last 30 years in Europe this season.

At this point the heart of the squad was ripped out from under him, losing Allan, McGeouch, McGinn and Barker, 4 of out 5 from arguably the best midfield in the country. Now let’s be honest, Hibs may have spent a bit of money this summer but it’s a drop in the ocean compared to the huge revenue increases since winning the Scottish cup, average attendance doubling, 2 cup finals in the cup winning season, merchandise sales following the SC win, 4th place last season, 3 European rounds then the sale of both McGinn and Murray.

The bad luck doesn’t stop there for Lennon, we’ve had Sir David Gray who has been brilliant when he’s played this season but it’s been a case of play 1 game and out for 3 or 4, out number 1 keeper has been injured for the first half of the season, we’ve had defensive injuries every single week, MacLaren can’t get fit either and I’ve got zero explanation for the form of Kamberi.

There’s not a manager in the world that could emulate last seasons success with the summer and budget we’ve had, it’s simply not possible.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t think Lennon is exempt from criticism, some of the selections and substitutions over the last few weeks have been strange to say the least (Kamberi off for Slivka when we are losing at home springs to mind). Chopping and changing 4/5/6 players every week cannot be helping the squad either but I do understand he’s trying almost anything to get a win right now.

I’m very confident that Lennon will turn our season around if he’s given funds in January, we need to get behind him and the team till then though. The thought of going in to the Celtic, Rangers double header and Hearts game on this form is enough to give anyone sleepless nights but maybe if we get behind the team we can spark some life back in to our season. What else can we do right now but have blind faith in our boys to sort it out?

Really good post.

The only bit I disagree with is the bit about the substitution the other night - as soon as Kamberi went off and Slivka went on we started to get a hold of midfield. I thought it was a risky move (as inevitably Lennon would get criticism for taking off a striker and putting on a midfielder when we're chasing the game) but it paid off. Kamberi and Shaw had both been brutal and our midfield weren't creating anything like enough.

The sub changed that - another tick in Lennon's plus column imo. He may make a mess of his starting lineups but he's capable of changing a match with subs and tactical tweaks.

lyonhibs
07-12-2018, 09:25 AM
I don't think we should - in any way - be contemplating getting rid of Lennon but you only have to look and see how Killie are doing to see that our budget in comparison to that of almost any other non OF team is not an excuse that explains, by itself or even plays a major role in explaining, why we're 8th and haven't won in 7 games.

Brightside
07-12-2018, 09:26 AM
The Slivka sub was the best thing he did.

we are hibs
07-12-2018, 09:29 AM
Getting rid of Lennon doesn't mean we will end up with another butcher fenlon or calderwood. Why does everyone think that?

Smartie
07-12-2018, 09:34 AM
Getting rid of Lennon doesn't mean we will end up with another butcher fenlon or calderwood. Why does everyone think that?

How often have we got rid of a manager and ended up with someone better?

We're going through a tough patch under a very good manager. The solution to the problem isn't always to change the manager - often the opposite.

Michael
07-12-2018, 09:36 AM
Getting rid of Lennon doesn't mean we will end up with another butcher fenlon or calderwood. Why does everyone think that?

Track record of replacing managers.

calumhibee1
07-12-2018, 09:36 AM
Getting rid of Lennon doesn't mean we will end up with another butcher fenlon or calderwood. Why does everyone think that?

:agree:

Whether you agree with getting rid of Lennon or not the arguement that we’re going to end up with someone akin to some of the worst managers in our history would suggest a major lack of faith in the board to get it right. Yet if you still want Lennon then I’m going to presume you felt they got it right there, so why are people so adamant they’d get the next one so badly wrong?

Wilson
07-12-2018, 09:53 AM
Track record of replacing managers.

To balance the argument couldn't we just discuss our track record of appointing managers under LD. Let's see. Stubbs - success. Lennon - success. I'd say that is a pretty strong argument for giving her another go if Lennon's heart isn't in it.

Also, as regards the OP. We really don't learn from the past - we continually play the wait and see approach when things clearly aren't right. Hell, Butcher wasn't sacked until AFTER we were relegated - for crying out loud! Lennon deserves a bit longer I'll grant you - but not too much

MWHIBBIES
07-12-2018, 10:04 AM
The reason Lennon needs funds to turn us round is because the funds he was given I'm the summer got us into this mess.

What if he gets it wrong again?

Pretty Boy
07-12-2018, 10:09 AM
How often have we got rid of a manager and ended up with someone better?

We're going through a tough patch under a very good manager. The solution to the problem isn't always to change the manager - often the opposite.

Fenlon replacing Calderwood
Stubbs replacing Butcher
Lennon replacing Stubbs

75% of our last 4 managerial changes have been, to varying degrees, a success and all have been an improvement on their immediate predecessor. That's not an endorsement of sacking Lennon btw.

My_Wife_Camille
07-12-2018, 10:13 AM
Fenlon replacing Calderwood
Stubbs replacing Butcher
Lennon replacing Stubbs

75% of our last 4 managerial changes have been, to varying degrees, a success and all have been an improvement on their immediate predecessor. That's not an endorsement of sacking Lennon btw.
McLeish replacing Duffy
Williamson replacing Sauzee
Mowbray replacing Williamson
Yogi replacing Mixu

Gloucester Hibs
07-12-2018, 10:15 AM
To counter it; when have we ever dispensed of a manager too early? You could make an argument for Mixu at a push, Sauzee perhaps? If anything we have held onto our dud managers for too long in the past - our inaction has IMO damaged us.

B.H.F.C
07-12-2018, 10:16 AM
DISCUSSION-

I’m very confident that Lennon will turn our season around if he’s given funds in January, we need to get behind him and the team till then though. The thought of going in to the Celtic, Rangers double header and Hearts game on this form is enough to give anyone sleepless nights but maybe if we get behind the team we can spark some life back in to our season. What else can we do right now but have blind faith in our boys to sort it out?

I keep reading about January and how we can fix it all then. We made a mess of it in the summer so there are no guarantees.

If Lennon really is a good manager he needs to get more out of the players he currently has. Parker’s interview the other night will hardly encourage that though. Singling players out, talking about needing players in January.

The whole thing is a mess at the moment and I sincerely hope they aren’t thinking they can wave a magic wand in January to fix it. There are six games before that and if we don’t pick up some wins we’ll find ourselves in a pretty dangerous position.

MWHIBBIES
07-12-2018, 10:18 AM
To counter it; when have we ever dispensed of a manager too early? You could make an argument for Mixu at a push, Sauzee perhaps? If anything we have held onto our dud managers for too long in the past - our inaction has IMO damaged us.

Fenlon. If he finishes his contract we don't get relegated.

calumhibee1
07-12-2018, 10:19 AM
To counter it; when have we ever dispensed of a manager too early? You could make an argument for Mixu at a push, Sauzee perhaps? If anything we have held onto our dud managers for too long in the past - our inaction has IMO damaged us.

Good point. In my 20 or so years of watching Hibs I can’t think of a manager we’ve sacked that you’d look back at and think “I’d have given him longer.”

Fenlon would be the closest to that but that’s more because of who came after him rather than because he was deserving of it.

Onceinawhile
07-12-2018, 10:25 AM
Fenlon. If he finishes his contract we don't get relegated.

Did Fenlon not resign?

I have it in the back of my mind he did.

davhibby
07-12-2018, 10:28 AM
Any managerial appointment before LD has been at the club is an irrelevance when using it as a reason not to get rid of Lennon.

calumhibee1
07-12-2018, 10:28 AM
Did Fenlon not resign?

I have it in the back of my mind he did.

Would seem he did. I thought he was sacked but Wikipedia says he resigned 1st November 2013.

Hi Heid Yin
07-12-2018, 10:31 AM
DISCUSSION-

I actually can’t believe the amount of people actually contemplating getting rid of Lennon to be honest.

Have we not learned our lesson about chopping and changing managers looking for that instant success?!

It started with Mixu, we were unhappy with the mediocrity, then on to Hughes who got us in to 4th place, Europe and was sacked 7 games in to the next season, then on to Colin (bag of sweeties) Calderwood, then on to Fenlon who got us to back to back Scottish cup finals, granted we got pumped. Last but not least we are faced with the mother of them all in the form of Terry Butcher and Maurice Malpas as we cliff dropped to relegation.

No disrespect to Sir Alan Stubbs but Lennon achieved what he couldn’t and got us out of the Championship at the first time of asking whilst taking us to another Scottish cup semi final. He then lead us to 4th place in the SPFL table in one of the most competitive leagues in years, not only that but the style of football was pretty spectacular to watch at times. He got us further than any manager has done in the last 30 years in Europe this season.

At this point the heart of the squad was ripped out from under him, losing Allan, McGeouch, McGinn and Barker, 4 of out 5 from arguably the best midfield in the country. Now let’s be honest, Hibs may have spent a bit of money this summer but it’s a drop in the ocean compared to the huge revenue increases since winning the Scottish cup, average attendance doubling, 2 cup finals in the cup winning season, merchandise sales following the SC win, 4th place last season, 3 European rounds then the sale of both McGinn and Murray.

The bad luck doesn’t stop there for Lennon, we’ve had Sir David Gray who has been brilliant when he’s played this season but it’s been a case of play 1 game and out for 3 or 4, out number 1 keeper has been injured for the first half of the season, we’ve had defensive injuries every single week, MacLaren can’t get fit either and I’ve got zero explanation for the form of Kamberi.

There’s not a manager in the world that could emulate last seasons success with the summer and budget we’ve had, it’s simply not possible.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t think Lennon is exempt from criticism, some of the selections and substitutions over the last few weeks have been strange to say the least (Kamberi off for Slivka when we are losing at home springs to mind). Chopping and changing 4/5/6 players every week cannot be helping the squad either but I do understand he’s trying almost anything to get a win right now.

I’m very confident that Lennon will turn our season around if he’s given funds in January, we need to get behind him and the team till then though. The thought of going in to the Celtic, Rangers double header and Hearts game on this form is enough to give anyone sleepless nights but maybe if we get behind the team we can spark some life back in to our season. What else can we do right now but have blind faith in our boys to sort it out?


:top marks

neil7908
07-12-2018, 10:38 AM
The Slivka sub was the best thing he did.

I know he's a polarising player but he needs to start on Saturday. He's no SJM but no one else in our midfield has any drive about them.

As soon as he came on we started playing some of football and it all camera down the right where he was playing.

Sammy7nil
07-12-2018, 10:43 AM
I don't think we should - in any way - be contemplating getting rid of Lennon but you only have to look and see how Killie are doing to see that our budget in comparison to that of almost any other non OF team is not an excuse that explains, by itself or even plays a major role in explaining, why we're 8th and haven't won in 7 games.

:agree::agree::agree:

When will Hibs learn from history? I can't recall back to back good seasons in the top league since Eddie Turnbulls time and even then it was short lived and ended in relegation.

I do not think it is unreasonable for a club our size to finish top 4 or better in back to back seasons. When we are in a good postion we always fail to invest on players. We have now had 15 years in off the park investment Hibs should be investing every available penny on players or we will continue to be a "Big" club with great facilities who are often out performed by St Jonstone, Motherwell and Aberdeen.

I agree changing the manager won't help.

Dashing Bob S
07-12-2018, 10:46 AM
The notion of ‘learning from the past’ in an immediate game in an experiential performance and result based undertaking is of limited application.

MWHIBBIES
07-12-2018, 10:47 AM
Did Fenlon not resign?

I have it in the back of my mind he did.Hounded out/given some money to resign I think.

Pretty Boy
07-12-2018, 10:47 AM
:agree::agree::agree:

When will Hibs learn from history? I can't recall back to back good sesons in the top league since Eddie Turnbulls time and even then it was short lived and ended in relegation.

I do not think it is unreasonable for a club our size to finish top 4 or better in back to back seasons. When we are in a good postion we always fail to invest on players. We have now had 15 years in off the park investment Hibs should be investing every available penny on players or we will continue to be a "Big" club with great facilities who are often out performed by St Jonstone, Motherwell and Aberdeen.

I agree changing the manager won't help.

Mowbray finished 3rd then 4th (overtaken by the early Romanov era financially doped Hearts). The following season Collins took over and we won the League Cup and finished 6th I think. I'd argue that was 3 good season back to back albeit the last one could have been better but for the implosion in March.

HibeeHibernian4
07-12-2018, 10:49 AM
No disrespect to Sir Alan Stubbs but Lennon achieved what he couldn’t and got us out of the Championship at the first time of asking whilst taking us to another Scottish cup semi final.

This...um...this isn't the achievement you think it is?

Getting us to a semi final (that he set us up for terribly and had to change inside half an hour when we went 2-0 down) absolutely doesn't compare to Stubbs leading us to two finals in one season. Again, I'll repeat this in case people don't understand, no other Hibs manager in history has ever taken us to the Scottish and League Cup final in the same season.

The other 'achievement' here was getting us out of the easiest of the three Championships that we were in. Had we not beaten that shambles of a Dundee United team to the title, Lennon would've been chased out of town and rightly so. For the record, we only amassed a point more than Stubbs did in both his seasons, and there were times when it genuinely looked like we might not win the league. It wasn't this procession some revisionists have decided it was.

B.H.F.C
07-12-2018, 10:56 AM
This...um...this isn't the achievement you think it is?

Getting us to a semi final (that he set us up for terribly and had to change inside half an hour when we went 2-0 down) absolutely doesn't compare to Stubbs leading us to two finals in one season. Again, I'll repeat this in case people don't understand, no other Hibs manager in history has ever taken us to the Scottish and League Cup final in the same season.

The other 'achievement' here was getting us out of the easiest of the three Championships that we were in. Had we not beaten that shambles of a Dundee United team to the title, Lennon would've been chased out of town and rightly so. For the record, we only amassed a point more than Stubbs did in both his seasons, and there were times when it genuinely looked like we might not win the league. It wasn't this procession some revisionists have decided it was.

What about achieving our record points total in the top flight last season?

I’m not in the ‘Lennon is great’ camp but at least try and be balanced about things.

HibeeHibernian4
07-12-2018, 11:01 AM
What about achieving our record points total in the top flight last season?

I’m not in the ‘Lennon is great’ camp but at least try and be balanced about things.

A great achievement and one he should be applauded for. I was responding specifically to the poster's attempt to big up Lennon's first year as Hibs manager, where he did the bare minimum expected and nothing more.

blackpoolhibs
07-12-2018, 11:06 AM
A great achievement and one he should be applauded for. I was responding specifically to the poster's attempt to big up Lennon's first year as Hibs manager, where he did the bare minimum expected and nothing more.

He achieved his aim, our aim.

SquashedFrogg
07-12-2018, 11:08 AM
DISCUSSION-

I actually can’t believe the amount of people actually contemplating getting rid of Lennon to be honest.

Have we not learned our lesson about chopping and changing managers looking for that instant success?!

It started with Mixu, we were unhappy with the mediocrity, then on to Hughes who got us in to 4th place, Europe and was sacked 7 games in to the next season, then on to Colin (bag of sweeties) Calderwood, then on to Fenlon who got us to back to back Scottish cup finals, granted we got pumped. Last but not least we are faced with the mother of them all in the form of Terry Butcher and Maurice Malpas as we cliff dropped to relegation.

No disrespect to Sir Alan Stubbs but Lennon achieved what he couldn’t and got us out of the Championship at the first time of asking whilst taking us to another Scottish cup semi final. He then lead us to 4th place in the SPFL table in one of the most competitive leagues in years, not only that but the style of football was pretty spectacular to watch at times. He got us further than any manager has done in the last 30 years in Europe this season.

At this point the heart of the squad was ripped out from under him, losing Allan, McGeouch, McGinn and Barker, 4 of out 5 from arguably the best midfield in the country. Now let’s be honest, Hibs may have spent a bit of money this summer but it’s a drop in the ocean compared to the huge revenue increases since winning the Scottish cup, average attendance doubling, 2 cup finals in the cup winning season, merchandise sales following the SC win, 4th place last season, 3 European rounds then the sale of both McGinn and Murray.

The bad luck doesn’t stop there for Lennon, we’ve had Sir David Gray who has been brilliant when he’s played this season but it’s been a case of play 1 game and out for 3 or 4, out number 1 keeper has been injured for the first half of the season, we’ve had defensive injuries every single week, MacLaren can’t get fit either and I’ve got zero explanation for the form of Kamberi.

There’s not a manager in the world that could emulate last seasons success with the summer and budget we’ve had, it’s simply not possible.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t think Lennon is exempt from criticism, some of the selections and substitutions over the last few weeks have been strange to say the least (Kamberi off for Slivka when we are losing at home springs to mind). Chopping and changing 4/5/6 players every week cannot be helping the squad either but I do understand he’s trying almost anything to get a win right now.

I’m very confident that Lennon will turn our season around if he’s given funds in January, we need to get behind him and the team till then though. The thought of going in to the Celtic, Rangers double header and Hearts game on this form is enough to give anyone sleepless nights but maybe if we get behind the team we can spark some life back in to our season. What else can we do right now but have blind faith in our boys to sort it out?

Great post.

The 90+2
07-12-2018, 11:09 AM
Hounded out/given some money to resign I think.

He should have been sacked after the first final.

Calderwood and his bag of sweeties ***** / far too long before punting, Butcher too. Thank god Plymouth came in for Williamson. We, in general take too long making decisions not the other way about. The only one I can remember that was hasty was Sauzee as I truly believe he would have turned it around. The rest where lost causes and the correct decision.

The 90+2
07-12-2018, 11:10 AM
Fenlon. If he finishes his contract we don't get relegated.

We don’t appoint Butcher and Malpas we don’t go down.

southern hibby
07-12-2018, 11:25 AM
This...um...this isn't the achievement you think it is?

Getting us to a semi final (that he set us up for terribly and had to change inside half an hour when we went 2-0 down) absolutely doesn't compare to Stubbs leading us to two finals in one season. Again, I'll repeat this in case people don't understand, no other Hibs manager in history has ever taken us to the Scottish and League Cup final in the same season.

The other 'achievement' here was getting us out of the easiest of the three Championships that we were in. Had we not beaten that shambles of a Dundee United team to the title, Lennon would've been chased out of town and rightly so. For the record, we only amassed a point more than Stubbs did in both his seasons, and there were times when it genuinely looked like we might not win the league. It wasn't this procession some revisionists have decided it was.

I think I’m correct in saying NO OTHER MANAGER IN SCOTTISH HISTORY has taken any lower division team to both cup finals in the same season.

GGTTH

stantonhibby
07-12-2018, 11:28 AM
He should have been sacked after the first final.

Calderwood and his bag of sweeties ***** / far too long before punting, Butcher too. Thank god Plymouth came in for Williamson. We, in general take too long making decisions not the other way about. The only one I can remember that was hasty was Sauzee as I truly believe he would have turned it around. The rest where lost causes and the correct decision.

So, you want Lennon gone after this run of 7 without a win but you'd have given Sauzee more time after his 15 games of dross. Makes sense.

Sammy7nil
07-12-2018, 11:30 AM
He achieved his aim, our aim.

Yip the bare minimum in a far easier league than the previous two seasons

Sammy7nil
07-12-2018, 11:31 AM
I think I’m correct in saying NO OTHER MANAGER IN SCOTTISH HISTORY has taken any lower division team to both cup finals in the same season.

GGTTH

Ahhh wrong post

blackpoolhibs
07-12-2018, 11:35 AM
Yip the bare minimum in a far easier league than the previous two seasons

Was it a success or a failure?

Gatecrasher
07-12-2018, 01:27 PM
Personally i would have thought Lennon had earned enough credit from the fans to ride out a slump such as this but the thing going against him for me at the moment is that he has in the past threatened to leave on a couple of occasions and he has all but dispeared from the public eye this time around where i want to hear from him what the issues are and thats hes committed to resolving them.

Someone mentioned the getting rid of Lennon doesnt autmatically mean we are back the Butcher, Fenlon and Calderwood days - that much is correct but i think it increases the chances of being back there. Each manager is a huge risk and i think we have one that can build success but we need to give him the chance to build that team and he needs to commit as well.

B.H.F.C
07-12-2018, 01:45 PM
Personally i would have thought Lennon had earned enough credit from the fans to ride out a slump such as this but the thing going against him for me at the moment is that he has in the past threatened to leave on a couple of occasions and he has all but dispeared from the public eye this time around where i want to hear from him what the issues are and thats hes committed to resolving them.

Someone mentioned the getting rid of Lennon doesnt autmatically mean we are back the Butcher, Fenlon and Calderwood days - that much is correct but i think it increases the chances of being back there. Each manager is a huge risk and i think we have one that can build success but we need to give him the chance to build that team and he needs to commit as well.

Undoubtedly his disappearing act, and some past comments, have went against him.

He is the leader and when the going gets tough he needs to face up to it.

I hope he’s doing the press today or the negativity towards him will only increase.

NAE NOOKIE
07-12-2018, 02:11 PM
Its a balancing act so far as Hibs are concerned. We had reached a stage where we were going through managers at an alarming rate for various reasons and were keen to put a stop to it in search of some continuity … that resulted in Butcher being given far too much leeway and it got us relegated.

I certainly don't think we are at the manager sacking stage, or anything like it, when it comes to Neil Lennon. But if we don't pick up some positive results before we play Hearts and then lose the derby the knives will be out … Hibs managers don't live or die by derby results like they do at Tynecastle, but a terrible run of form which culminates in a derby defeat, especially at home, will be hard for a lot of fans to take. Just ask Pat Fenlon, the final nail was losing a derby to Hearts that we utterly dominated, it was probably the best Hibs had played in months and yet it was all about the result that night and fans found it impossible to rationalise a very good performance against a bad result.

After the derby we are away to Motherwell and St Mirren followed by a home game with Aberdeen and away to Celtic …. if we do badly in these games and Dundee continue to pick up as they seem to be doing we would be kidding ourselves if we continue to think that ending up in a play off spot is an impossibility.

That's the cut off point for me …. if we are still in the doldrums after the Hearts game and we get nothing at Motherwell and St Mirren it will be time to seriously look at a change of manager. That's a total of 8 games not counting the Scottish cup tie, which on the back of our current poor run against a load of teams we would have expected to do far better against is a reasonable amount of time in which the manager must show he has the ability to turn things around.

Its one thing getting relegated with a guy in charge who doesn't understand that you need to do well on the pitch as well as off it ( Petrie ) and a manager straight out of the dark ages with a poor pool of players playing in front of 7,000 fans.

Its quite another when you have a woman in charge day to day who so far has shown she understands the correlation between success on the pitch and the club's good health off it, with a manager who has shown he can motivate a team and who has at least on paper a decent squad of players to pick from who play in front of 15 to 17,000 fans on a Saturday.

Getting relegated in those circumstances is quite frankly unthinkable.

GreenArmyyy!
07-12-2018, 02:14 PM
A great achievement and one he should be applauded for. I was responding specifically to the poster's attempt to big up Lennon's first year as Hibs manager, where he did the bare minimum expected and nothing more.

I’m a huge advocate of Stubbs but the bare minimum we should have expected from him was to guide us through the play-offs in at least one of the years.

The 90+2
07-12-2018, 02:19 PM
So, you want Lennon gone after this run of 7 without a win but you'd have given Sauzee more time after his 15 games of dross. Makes sense.

Point out where I want Lennon sacked?

wookie70
07-12-2018, 02:53 PM
Way too early to be sacking Lennon but the time is right to be concerned about on the field performances and the attitude of the players. The press conference misses don't bother me but the reason is important, albeit, it is Leeann that needs to manage and be satisfied with whatever that is not us. I don't think Lennon is the messiah and he definitely can be a very naughty boy but up until the last couple of months he was doing a good job. My own view is that was mostly due to the tremendous team he inherited rather than any tactical genius on his part but he still has to get credit for getting us out the Championship and a really good season last year.
He also deserves time because injuries have played a big part this year.
On the negative side he bought badly in the summer. He built an unbalanced squad lacking in legs and grit and left us woefully exposed if there were any injuries or form dips to our strikers. His signings have failed to find there feet and he hasn't done that well in the transfer market since his arrival with Stubbs era players still the majority of top picks up until this season.
Can he turn it round. I have my doubts after the Parker interview but he certainly deserves a chance. If we don't win until Christmas then Leeann really has a decision to make in terms of keeping him or at the very least how much pocket money she gives him to spend in the window. Much will depend on the teams below us because if they have a good December then the jacket may start to get shoogly on the peg.

HibeeHibernian4
07-12-2018, 06:30 PM
I’m a huge advocate of Stubbs but the bare minimum we should have expected from him was to guide us through the play-offs in at least one of the years.

The play-offs that had a strong Rangers side and even stronger Motherwell side in 2015?

Or the play-offs that would've been 3 days after our Scottish Cup Final in 2016?

lord bunberry
07-12-2018, 06:34 PM
Yip the bare minimum in a far easier league than the previous two seasons
We absolutely pished the league, how is that the bare minimum?

Onion
07-12-2018, 07:09 PM
All Stubbs and Lennon have done since 2016 is get Hibs somewhere close to the level we should be operating at. All our other managers (bar Mowbray / GJP) have been desperate appointments who've failed at Hibs and done just as little since.

We should not be fooled into thinking that anyone better than the likes of Fenlon, Hughes, Calderwood and Butcher is somehow irreplaceable or sacred. They're not. Lennon's been a decent manager for Hibs, and I hope he can fix our problems, but he's not above the club and we shouldn't cower away from making the right decision. In Dempster, we should trust.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
07-12-2018, 07:12 PM
We don’t appoint Butcher and Malpas we don’t go down.

Or if we had sacked them with a game or two to go.

Learning from history could be that once a manager has fallen out with his players, there is no way back.

Thats the lesson i learned from the Butcher era certainly.

HibeeHibernian4
07-12-2018, 07:20 PM
We absolutely pished the league, how is that the bare minimum?

More revisionism. Dundee United were ahead of us at Christmas and things only started to turn when we beat Falkirk away (last minute Commons free kick), Dundee United at home on a Friday night and then won at Dumbarton and Queen of the South.

We then proceeded to win just two of our next ten league games, and at the start of March, Dundee United were 6 points behind with a game in hand after we lost to bottom of the table St Mirren.

If Dundee United had not gone into complete and utter free fall, we may well have been caught.

We absolutely, categorically did not pish that league.

scoopyboy
07-12-2018, 07:40 PM
DISCUSSION-

I actually can’t believe the amount of people actually contemplating getting rid of Lennon to be honest.

Have we not learned our lesson about chopping and changing managers looking for that instant success?!

It started with Mixu, we were unhappy with the mediocrity, then on to Hughes who got us in to 4th place, Europe and was sacked 7 games in to the next season, then on to Colin (bag of sweeties) Calderwood, then on to Fenlon who got us to back to back Scottish cup finals, granted we got pumped. Last but not least we are faced with the mother of them all in the form of Terry Butcher and Maurice Malpas as we cliff dropped to relegation.

No disrespect to Sir Alan Stubbs but Lennon achieved what he couldn’t and got us out of the Championship at the first time of asking whilst taking us to another Scottish cup semi final. He then lead us to 4th place in the SPFL table in one of the most competitive leagues in years, not only that but the style of football was pretty spectacular to watch at times. He got us further than any manager has done in the last 30 years in Europe this season.

At this point the heart of the squad was ripped out from under him, losing Allan, McGeouch, McGinn and Barker, 4 of out 5 from arguably the best midfield in the country. Now let’s be honest, Hibs may have spent a bit of money this summer but it’s a drop in the ocean compared to the huge revenue increases since winning the Scottish cup, average attendance doubling, 2 cup finals in the cup winning season, merchandise sales following the SC win, 4th place last season, 3 European rounds then the sale of both McGinn and Murray.

The bad luck doesn’t stop there for Lennon, we’ve had Sir David Gray who has been brilliant when he’s played this season but it’s been a case of play 1 game and out for 3 or 4, out number 1 keeper has been injured for the first half of the season, we’ve had defensive injuries every single week, MacLaren can’t get fit either and I’ve got zero explanation for the form of Kamberi.

There’s not a manager in the world that could emulate last seasons success with the summer and budget we’ve had, it’s simply not possible.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t think Lennon is exempt from criticism, some of the selections and substitutions over the last few weeks have been strange to say the least (Kamberi off for Slivka when we are losing at home springs to mind). Chopping and changing 4/5/6 players every week cannot be helping the squad either but I do understand he’s trying almost anything to get a win right now.

I’m very confident that Lennon will turn our season around if he’s given funds in January, we need to get behind him and the team till then though. The thought of going in to the Celtic, Rangers double header and Hearts game on this form is enough to give anyone sleepless nights but maybe if we get behind the team we can spark some life back in to our season. What else can we do right now but have blind faith in our boys to sort it out?

I hear ya but how long do you let it run for?

With Yogi everybody said the same, its too quick he's just lead us into Europe. I say we waited too long.

Fenlon gave up when he realised the job was too much for him, he should have been sacked earlier.

Collins got us the League Cup but baled before he was sacked.

Each of the three examples I have given were really popular before they spiralled out of control.

It's a difficult call as to when and you don't obviously have hindsight.:greengrin

He may well turn it around in which case it is the correct decision to keep NL, however if he is backed in January transfer window and things are no better then it could be argued he should have went in December.

I'm not sure about him going on the results we have achieved recently, the bit that is unsettling me is his behaviour.

By the way, where is Leeann Dempster these days? While since we've heard from her, I wonder if it is related to the slump.

Hibernia&Alba
07-12-2018, 08:07 PM
DISCUSSION-

I actually can’t believe the amount of people actually contemplating getting rid of Lennon to be honest.

Have we not learned our lesson about chopping and changing managers looking for that instant success?!

It started with Mixu, we were unhappy with the mediocrity, then on to Hughes who got us in to 4th place, Europe and was sacked 7 games in to the next season, then on to Colin (bag of sweeties) Calderwood, then on to Fenlon who got us to back to back Scottish cup finals, granted we got pumped. Last but not least we are faced with the mother of them all in the form of Terry Butcher and Maurice Malpas as we cliff dropped to relegation.

No disrespect to Sir Alan Stubbs but Lennon achieved what he couldn’t and got us out of the Championship at the first time of asking whilst taking us to another Scottish cup semi final. He then lead us to 4th place in the SPFL table in one of the most competitive leagues in years, not only that but the style of football was pretty spectacular to watch at times. He got us further than any manager has done in the last 30 years in Europe this season.

At this point the heart of the squad was ripped out from under him, losing Allan, McGeouch, McGinn and Barker, 4 of out 5 from arguably the best midfield in the country. Now let’s be honest, Hibs may have spent a bit of money this summer but it’s a drop in the ocean compared to the huge revenue increases since winning the Scottish cup, average attendance doubling, 2 cup finals in the cup winning season, merchandise sales following the SC win, 4th place last season, 3 European rounds then the sale of both McGinn and Murray.

The bad luck doesn’t stop there for Lennon, we’ve had Sir David Gray who has been brilliant when he’s played this season but it’s been a case of play 1 game and out for 3 or 4, out number 1 keeper has been injured for the first half of the season, we’ve had defensive injuries every single week, MacLaren can’t get fit either and I’ve got zero explanation for the form of Kamberi.

There’s not a manager in the world that could emulate last seasons success with the summer and budget we’ve had, it’s simply not possible.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t think Lennon is exempt from criticism, some of the selections and substitutions over the last few weeks have been strange to say the least (Kamberi off for Slivka when we are losing at home springs to mind). Chopping and changing 4/5/6 players every week cannot be helping the squad either but I do understand he’s trying almost anything to get a win right now.

I’m very confident that Lennon will turn our season around if he’s given funds in January, we need to get behind him and the team till then though. The thought of going in to the Celtic, Rangers double header and Hearts game on this form is enough to give anyone sleepless nights but maybe if we get behind the team we can spark some life back in to our season. What else can we do right now but have blind faith in our boys to sort it out?

Well argued and sensible. I very much agree :agree:

GreenArmyyy!
08-12-2018, 09:24 AM
The play-offs that had a strong Rangers side and even stronger Motherwell side in 2015?

Or the play-offs that would've been 3 days after our Scottish Cup Final in 2016?

The second play-offs should have been far easier, losing to Falkirk over two legs is horrendous.

jacomo
08-12-2018, 06:28 PM
The notion of ‘learning from the past’ in an immediate game in an experiential performance and result based undertaking is of limited application.


I take it more as a psychological exploration of the Hibs support.

We are quite a volatile fan base, liable to react in extreme fashion to both highs and lows, and I like this. It makes life more fun, and events like Cup wins unforgettable.

But at times I do wish we’d chill the f*** out and try to ride the waves. This strikes me as one of those times. We’ve had a bit of a torrid time but can still have a successful season.