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View Full Version : What positions has Lennon improved from Stubbs team?



MWHIBBIES
24-11-2018, 11:22 PM
Obviously we have 2 better goalies now, Ambrose is an upgrade on Fontaine (legend) and Kamberi is better than any striker Stubbs had IMO. Otherwise I'm struggling to think of any?

I don't really know who or what is to blame but the majority of his signings haven't improved the team.

calumhibee1
24-11-2018, 11:33 PM
That’s all I’d say. Better goalie than Stubbs had, one better centre back and one better striker. Not good enough.

weecounty hibby
24-11-2018, 11:37 PM
Are we talking league positions?

wookie70
24-11-2018, 11:41 PM
Obviously we have 2 better goalies now, Ambrose is an upgrade on Fontaine (legend) and Kamberi is better than any striker Stubbs had IMO. Otherwise I'm struggling to think of any?

I don't really know who or what is to blame but the majority of his signings haven't improved the team.

Malonga or Stokes could be considered as good as Flo although different types of player. Ambrose and the goalies would be my choices with perhaps Milligan although Marv isn't far behind. The back 5 are all Stubbs team or were present when he was here(Porteous) Boyle is still our best winger. SJM and Dylan beat any of the current midfielders. I would take Cummings over McLaren too. I think it is borne out when you look at team selection while Lennon has been here. Not many of Stubbs's signing got dropped over Lennons. It was late into last season before we saw teams that had marginally more Lennon signings than Stubbs ones and even one of them(Allen) had been signed by Stubbs originally.

Lennon certainly has a great eye for a goalie as it has been decades since we had such a good crop.

Lancs Harp
24-11-2018, 11:43 PM
Lennon added steel and a winning mentality to a very attractive Stubbs side. However after last summers player exodus, perhaps understandably to degree, we have lost the attractive playing style, winning mentality and the steel.

Hopefully a blip but for me recruitment in january is vital to getting back on track Im not convinced the current squad have the answers.

Hibernian32
24-11-2018, 11:50 PM
He's improved every position bar midfield which we just lossed in the summer, I'm not having these digs at lennon nearly everyone in September was claiming he was the best manager since ET. He's improved the keepers brought on porteous, Kamberi & mclaren are better in Cummings in my eyes, I'd say Milligan is a upgrade on Marv, Mallan is better than fyvie ( just comparing Lennon's signing to Stubbs ) could also Mcginn & mceough probably played there best football under lennon same with Boyle yes Stubbs got these boys in but lennon has took them to another level. We are just a bit lossed the now keep the faith in the chief ginger.

Our team that finished last season would have beat the team Stubbs left hands down so there's your answer Lennon's improved us case closed

MWHIBBIES
24-11-2018, 11:53 PM
Lennon added steel and a winning mentality to a very attractive Stubbs side. However after last summers player exodus, perhaps understandably to degree, we have lost the attractive playing style, winning mentality and the steel.

Hopefully a blip but for me recruitment in january is vital to getting back on track Im not convinced the current squad have the answers.
Did he really add a winning mentality? He continued beating rangers, hearts at home and got the same points as Stubbs did in championship. We still lose late goals. He lost the semis he's been in. Has a rubbish record at Tynie and loses far too many points to poor sides.

He's done brilliant but he's desperately running out of steam now.

Lancs Harp
25-11-2018, 12:01 AM
Did he really add a winning mentality? He continued beating rangers, hearts at home and got the same points as Stubbs did in championship. We still lose late goals. He lost the semis he's been in. Has a rubbish record at Tynie and loses far too many points to poor sides.

He's done brilliant but he's desperately running out of steam now.

Yes personally I think he did, Stubbs side was attractive but still had that soft underbelly which I think Lennon built on, made the side more mentally tough. I think last seasons team was alot stronger mentally than Stubbsys side. Things have slid alot this season though.

calumhibee1
25-11-2018, 12:02 AM
Yes personally I think he did, Stubbs side was attractive but still had that soft underbelly which I think Lennon built on, made the side more mentally tough. I think last seasons team was alot stronger mentally than Stubbsys side. Things have slid alot this season though.

I think it was probably more down to having Dylan and SJM fit every week and giving us the best midfield in Scotland nearly every week than anything else.

JohnM1875
25-11-2018, 03:27 AM
Stubbs team won the Scottish Cup. And I'll never ever forget that. But they also finished behind Falkirk in the league.

Lennon's team finished 4th in the premiership, got us into Europe then through two rounds of europe. No doubt Lennon has improved us.

He might not have signed over Stubbs players but I honestly can't think of one player who played better under Stubbs.

DetroitHibs
25-11-2018, 03:42 AM
Lennon is a far superior manager than Stubbs.

#2 Double Tap
25-11-2018, 04:54 AM
Lenny has changed the shape of the team from stubbs 4312 and from last seasons 352, to a 442, he just hasnt realised it yet. We could do with replacing a few players but I would like to see them line up in a 442 before I start savaging every one!

marciano
bogdaN
laidlaw

grey/
whittaker


McGregor/
ambrose


Porteous/
hanlon


Nelom/
stevenson



boyle /
harry



mallan /
slivka /
hyndman



milligan/
bartley

horgan /
agyepong

kamberi/
allen


maclaren/
shaw

EH54
25-11-2018, 06:28 AM
Geniuenly think stubbs strikers were better. Just attitude that you could argue not. Malonga was a quality player. Stokes aswell. And then Cummings had that swagger and that arrogance you knew he was going to score in big games. Midfield was light years ahead of lennons. Ambrose and the goalies are the only ones in 3 seasons(5 transfer windows). That's a real upgrade on what we had.

IGRIGI
25-11-2018, 06:57 AM
Seeing as Stubbs left us 3rd in the Championship behind Falkirk I would say all over the park has been improved.

Smartie
25-11-2018, 07:38 AM
Lennon's strikers did fine during the 2nd half of last season when they were receiving some half- decent service.

It's all about the midfield, and Lennon himself couldn't claim that this midfield is up to scratch.

J-C
25-11-2018, 07:45 AM
He hasn't brought the players in midfield, was always going to be hard but we always knew Dylan and McGinn were going, we've lost that drive and guile those 2 plus Allan gave us.

EH54
25-11-2018, 08:09 AM
------------------Bodgan------------------
Gray--Ambrose--Hanlon--Stevenson
-----------------Milligan--------------------
-------Mallan-----------Kamara------------
------------------Allan------------------------
----------Kamberi--Maclaren-------------

Team looks so much more balanced and stronger with 2 quality additions. If gray is injured or unavailable a back 3 with Boyle dropping Mallan. Much better. Come on get the cheque book out hibs.

Pretty Boy
25-11-2018, 08:11 AM
The midfield 3 we had was always going to be difficult to replace. The issue in recent weeks isn't that our midfield has been weaker than McGinn, McGeough and Allan but rather it was recently beaten by a midfield of Liam Craig, Ross Callaghan and a 12 year old on loan from Ipswich. Yesterday again it was totally overrun by what should be an inferior side.

There is no balance whatsoever and no team wins games with a gaping hole in the middle of the park. As an exanple you could probably get away with Mallans lack of dig and mobility if you had a McGinn type buzzing about and making tackles. As it is we are soft but don't have any real guile or creativity to compensate for that. It says it all that Scott Allans 'replacement' wasn't in the squad yesterday and it barely merited a mention.

Lennon eveidently improved us last season but there was far bigger surgery required this season and thus far the entire football department, players included, is failing the test miserably.

Sir David Gray
25-11-2018, 08:16 AM
The difference is John McGinn, Dylan McGeouch and Scott Allan.

Those three were three of the best midfielders in Scotland last season and any team outwith Celtic would have struggled to replace one of them. The fact that all three basically left at the same time was always going to make things difficult for us.

Replacing guys like that costs money that we simply don't have so we're going to have to take a few gambles on young, promising players and hope that it pays off.

we are hibs
25-11-2018, 08:19 AM
Apart from the second half of last season it's been bang average under Lennon. We seem to have stopped trying to play football and we are going needlessly direct to kamberi all the time like we did with holt in the championship. Stubbs signings were so far ahead of lennon's. People like Gray, Mcginn, Henderson, Allan, McGeouch where all signed. under Lennon and in the same positions he's brought in Whittaker, Hyndman, slivka, mallan, shinnie ect who have all either been poor signings or bang average. Lennon isn't as good as some make out and gets a free ride from some in our support for non footballing reasons.

Northernhibee
25-11-2018, 08:38 AM
Those bringing up the Stubbs being 3rd have short memories. That points total would have been good enough for promotion the following year, in fact we walked the league the following season in an easier league with only 1pt increase. We also played less games as in the previous season we got to both major cup finals and were only beaten over 90 minutes by one top flight team when injuries means we started with a central midfield pairing of two DMs.

Don’t let his inability to pick the wrong club to move to deceive - Stubbs, Taf and Doolan were a great team and if I’m honest on the playing front I feel we’ve regressed and treaded water in terms of the football played. Had those three stayed on as a team I think we’d be no worse off.

Borderhibbie76
25-11-2018, 08:43 AM
Yes personally I think he did, Stubbs side was attractive but still had that soft underbelly which I think Lennon built on, made the side more mentally tough. I think last seasons team was alot stronger mentally than Stubbsys side. Things have slid alot this season though.This is true but mainly due to the midfield 3 - not the case this season. We haven't come close to winning anything under Lennon (And I refuse to include the chsmpionship) so I'm not sure his record is as good as some make out TBH??

What I do know is he's now facing serious questions for the first time in his tenure at Hibs and no hiding place...this is HIS squad. Let's see if he has the answers...I really hope so

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

BoomtownHibees
25-11-2018, 09:09 AM
This is true but mainly due to the midfield 3 - not the case this season. We haven't come close to winning anything under Lennon (And I refuse to include the chsmpionship) so I'm not sure his record is as good as some make out TBH??

What I do know is he's now facing serious questions for the first time in his tenure at Hibs and no hiding place...this is HIS squad. Let's see if he has the answers...I really hope so

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

You refuse to include the one thing that he has won so you can continue with the “hasn’t been close to winning anything” stuff?

chrisski33
25-11-2018, 09:21 AM
Lennon is a far superior manager than Stubbs.


this!

calumhibee1
25-11-2018, 09:26 AM
Seeing as Stubbs left us 3rd in the Championship behind Falkirk I would say all over the park has been improved.

I get what you’re saying but there’s no way you can claim that we’re better all over the park now when our midfield is undeniably significantly worse.

neil7908
25-11-2018, 09:39 AM
The difference is John McGinn, Dylan McGeouch and Scott Allan.

Those three were three of the best midfielders in Scotland last season and any team outwith Celtic would have struggled to replace one of them. The fact that all three basically left at the same time was always going to make things difficult for us.

Replacing guys like that costs money that we simply don't have so we're going to have to take a few gambles on young, promising players and hope that it pays off.

I think that's it in a nutshell. Our strikers have shown last season if they get the service they will score goals.

But our whole midfield was hollowed out in the summer and it looks like the players brought in aren't cutting it.

I have a lot of sympathy for Lennon as no team in the world could lose 3 players as vital to them as McGinn, McGeouch and Allan are to us and continue to improve.

His signings should be scrutinised though as we have a limited budget and guys like Hyndman, Nelom and Marvais don't look like even making an impact.

Despite having a good selection of defenders we still ship far too many cheap goals.

I'm worried at the moment about the confidence levels of this team, we really need to start winning games as once you hit a bad patch of form, it's easy for heads to go down.

MacGruber
25-11-2018, 09:52 AM
this!

Lennon is a better manager than Stubbs. It won't matter though if he has lost the dressingroom, it never does.

Stubbs made some incredible signings - more so than Lennon. Also some turkeys. Lennon has made the odd very good signing too just not as much and also some turkeys.

Boyle, McGinn, McGeough, Henderson, Allan, Bartley - that was some awesome recruitment and we've not bettered any of that since.

Marciano, Bogadan, Kamberi and Ambrose are all class - Milligan might prove to be too. Most of the rest are fillers

MacGruber
25-11-2018, 09:54 AM
& Shame on me for not including Gray in that list - & initially big Daz

B.H.F.C
25-11-2018, 10:12 AM
Lennon did make us harder to beat.

In the championship season he lost three games whereas Stubbs lost eight in his last season. Under Stubbs we regularly lost at the likes of Alloa and Dumbarton.

Last season he ended up with nearly the same number of points in the premiership as had been managed in the championship. Was it not our best ever points total or something like that?

Lennon, however, is toiling this season and a lot of it comes back to what we did (or didn’t) do in the summer imo.

Keith_M
25-11-2018, 10:14 AM
Moaning faced, surly Manager?

I think he does that a lot better than Stubbs.

calumhibee1
25-11-2018, 10:17 AM
Lennon did make us harder to beat.

In the championship season he lost three games whereas Stubbs lost eight in his last season. Under Stubbs we regularly lost at the likes of Alloa and Dumbarton.

Last season he ended up with nearly the same number of points in the premiership as had been managed in the championship. Was it not our best ever points total or something like that?

Lennon, however, is toiling this season and a lot of it comes back to what we did (or didn’t) do in the summer imo.

To be fair though he also made it more difficult for us to win in the Championship by trying to make us harder to beat. We won two less games and that was also without Rangers in the league.

We had a great season last season but looking back on it, with the midfield that we had we really should have had or else it would have been an utter waste of the exceptional talent we had at our disposal.

I like Lennon but the more it becomes his team the poorer I feel we’re becoming.

B.H.F.C
25-11-2018, 10:21 AM
To be fair though he also made it more difficult for us to win in the Championship by trying to make us harder to beat. We won two less games and that was also without Rangers in the league.

We had a great season last season but looking back on it, with the midfield that we had we really should have had or else it would have been an utter waste of the exceptional talent we had at our disposal.

I like Lennon but the more it becomes his team the poorer I feel we’re becoming.

Aye but if he hadn’t made us harder to beat them we might not have won it at all?

Whilst I think Stubbs made some better signings I do feel Lennon got more out of some players. The level Boyle is playing at is night and day to what it was under Stubbs for instance.

rotherhamrob
25-11-2018, 10:28 AM
Those bringing up the Stubbs being 3rd have short memories. That points total would have been good enough for promotion the following year, in fact we walked the league the following season in an easier league with only 1pt increase. We also played less games as in the previous season we got to both major cup finals and were only beaten over 90 minutes by one top flight team when injuries means we started with a central midfield pairing of two DMs.

Don’t let his inability to pick the wrong club to move to deceive - Stubbs, Taf and Doolan were a great team and if I’m honest on the playing front I feel we’ve regressed and treaded water in terms of the football played. Had those three stayed on as a team I think we’d be no worse off.
Great Post.
You could argue that the only important thing about being in the championship is getting out of the championship and in that regard it was job done, however the football was as dire as it is now.
On the subject of recruitment, I would say that the only areas improved are goalkeepers and efe, kamberi could also go on the list as just now I get the feeling he is carrying an injury and we are trying to nurse him through till the break.

calumhibee1
25-11-2018, 10:33 AM
Those bringing up the Stubbs being 3rd have short memories. That points total would have been good enough for promotion the following year, in fact we walked the league the following season in an easier league with only 1pt increase. We also played less games as in the previous season we got to both major cup finals and were only beaten over 90 minutes by one top flight team when injuries means we started with a central midfield pairing of two DMs.

Don’t let his inability to pick the wrong club to move to deceive - Stubbs, Taf and Doolan were a great team and if I’m honest on the playing front I feel we’ve regressed and treaded water in terms of the football played. Had those three stayed on as a team I think we’d be no worse off.

I agree with this and have said it previously. Yes, Lennon won the league and got us promoted and at the end of the day that was the aim, job done and he deserves praise for that. But when you look deeper into it, they finished with near identical points totals while Lennon was playing in a league without Rangers or even a Falkirk team who were a lot better when Stubbs came up against them. Stubbs also got us to two cup finals that season which undoubtedly impacted our league campaign.

Always feel there’s a bit of an injustice when it’s used as a stick to beat Stubbs with.

Eyrie
25-11-2018, 10:40 AM
You refuse to include the one thing that he has won so you can continue with the “hasn’t been close to winning anything” stuff?

I wouldn't class winning the Championship as an achievement but only as a way to escape the embarrassment of being in the lower league. We also had a far higher budget than any of our competitors in that third season down there which makes it even less of an achievement.

BoomtownHibees
25-11-2018, 11:32 AM
I wouldn't class winning the Championship as an achievement but only as a way to escape the embarrassment of being in the lower league. We also had a far higher budget than any of our competitors in that third season down there which makes it even less of an achievement.

“Achievement” or not, he still won it didn’t he?

wookie70
25-11-2018, 12:33 PM
It's about progress. Leeann was clear when she arrived that she wanted to build something. Stubbs was the foundation and he took an absolute mess of a playing squad and turned it into an exciting Cup Winning team that were also frustrating in their inability to break teams down. Lennon tweaked that team to add a bit of steel and the ability to hoof it to Holt. It worked and in a poorer league he ended up winning it easily but not really getting many more points than Stubbs. He had the advantage of a team of winners created by Stubbs and he grew that mentality. He also benefited from players like SJM and Boyle being campaign seasoned and wised up players. He contributed to that too but time and experience would have done that as well as Lennon's influence.

Last year we were fumbling about and doing a half decent job until the January window. It wasn't clear what our best team was and we had a host of off field issues. We bought Allen, Flo and Jamie and stormed the second half of the season. Was that Lennon buying players to finish a formation that he had in mind or did it just all fit together with the right blend of skills. No idea but we are starting to see a Lennon team in terms of personnel now and it looks disorganised, lacking heart at times and yesterday disinterested. Yesterday looked like our strongest team on paper, maybe barring SDG, but it looked weak in the middle and the shape didn't suit the personnel.

SJM and Dylan were always going to be difficult to replace but it wasn't exactly a surprise they left. We had plenty time to bring players in and didn't need to leave that till this summer. We could have been succession planning before that. Are we still progressing and can we still see a plan and vision. I think the plan to play good football and buy younger players with a sell on is still in place but I'm not sure we are progressing and Lennon has to shoulder some or most of the blame for that.