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Ozyhibby
16-11-2018, 10:45 PM
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Lancs Harp
16-11-2018, 10:47 PM
Yes heard this today, our local rag the Blackpool Gazette is in the same group, although to be honest will hardly be missed if it disappeared

Green Man
16-11-2018, 11:09 PM
The company has been in trouble for a long time, it was inevitable that it wouldn’t last.

Elephant Stone
16-11-2018, 11:14 PM
Heap of dug sheite, good riddance.

Sergey
16-11-2018, 11:17 PM
Banderson better get his HMFC CV concocted...pronto...with the usual untruths, caveats and numerical f-up's.

I don't wish unemployment on anyone - but this is an exception to the rule.

Hope to see you begging at Haymarket, you wretched little HMFC puppet toss-pot.

0762
16-11-2018, 11:19 PM
Sorry to hear as people will end up without a job. Not great going into Xmas.
To be honest not bought a newspaper (except after winning cup finals) since early 2000’s.
Online media has killed the written press.

Hibbyradge
16-11-2018, 11:25 PM
Banderson better get his HMFC CV concocted...pronto...with the usual untruths, caveats and numerical f-up's.

I don't wish unemployment on anyone - but this is an exception to the rule.

Hope to see you begging at Haymarket, you wretched little HMFC puppet toss-pot.

I know why you say that, G, but it'll be a shame if the EEN disappears.

It's an important publication for thousands of Edinburgh folk. It's more than just fitba.

Jim44
16-11-2018, 11:27 PM
I used to buy the Scotsman every day about 12 years ago. When I realised that they were generally going downhill and biased and inaccurate ( polite ) in their sports reporting ( led by a certain Jambo hack ) I gave it up for good. Delighted to hear they have fallen on hard times and wish them a quick and painful demise. :greengrin

Bostonhibby
16-11-2018, 11:32 PM
I used to buy the Scotsman every day about 12 years ago. When I realised that they were generally going downhill and biased and inaccurate ( polite ) in their sports reporting ( led by a certain Jambo hack ) I gave it up for good. Delighted to hear they have fallen on hard times and wish them a quick and painful demise. :greengrinUsed to get the EEN sent down south decades ago but the sports journalism part became a celebration of all things hearts and the quality was abysmal.

The chickens took a long time to come home to roost but they have. Don't miss it. Maybe there's a void for a decent publication to fill.



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Sergey
16-11-2018, 11:41 PM
I know why you say that, G, but it'll be a shame if the EEN disappears.

It's an important publication for thousands of Edinburgh folk. It's more than just fitba.

Got to disagree - it's no longer "An important publication for thousands of Edinburgh folk" - If it was, it would be sold off as a separate entity. No punter is buying it and it has ran the course.

Modern media and all that - I remember the 'Pink' prior to going to Powderhall - times change, and I short sold the shares a few years ago and I'm quids in.

You owe me gherkins. BTW :-)

Cod Boy
16-11-2018, 11:46 PM
Its yesterday’s news that’s in it as well. It’s on sale at 8am in the morning

Just Alf
16-11-2018, 11:47 PM
Sorry to hear as people will end up without a job. Not great going into Xmas.
To be honest not bought a newspaper (except after winning cup finals) since early 2000’s.
Online media has killed the written press.


Regarding the online side, they really didn't help themselves by having a website that was so difficult to use if you had an iPad etc. In essence they made themselves compete with one arm tied behind their back. Could never ever figure out why they never addressed that.

superfurryhibby
16-11-2018, 11:47 PM
I once liked the Scotsman/ Scotland on Sunday sports coverage. That was a long time ago. End of an era, but we move with the times.

Used to like Ian Woods column , Allan Massie’s writing and A few ithers who’s name evades me. One of them was a Hibby that I played football with. His writing was better than his defending.

Onion
16-11-2018, 11:48 PM
No different to any other company that refuses to change with the times. The Scotsman's latter-day desperation to appeal to those of a Glasgow team persuasion and refusal to properly investigate and report on the Romanov fall-out is shameful and so far removed from a serious newspaper it was simply a matter of time. Both publications sold their souls year ago.

Mantis Toboggan
16-11-2018, 11:51 PM
Got to disagree - it's no longer "An important publication for thousands of Edinburgh folk" - If it was, it would be sold off as a separate entity. No punter is buying it and it has ran the course.

Modern media and all that - I remember the 'Pink' prior to going to Powderhall - times change, and I short sold the shares a few years ago and I'm quids in.

You owe me gherkins. BTW :-)

While the website and the football coverage are both by this stage appalling, the paper itself did still serve some sort of loose community purpose. However, just printing some old photos of Edinburgh in the Saturday edition isn't enough to sustain anything. Pretty sad really for those who remember getting it for transfer news in the Teletext era. Which is of no relevance to anyone under 30 I would guess.

SkintHibby
17-11-2018, 03:38 AM
Excellent news. Unionist rag.:thumbsup:

Ozyhibby
17-11-2018, 05:27 AM
Excellent news. Unionist rag.:thumbsup:

An important point.
When indyref 2 arrives it will be a very different landscape for both campaigns.
News has fragmented even more since 2014 and nationalist also have a newspaper supporting them. The Herald and the Record are also looking more favourably at independence. If the Scotsman does not survive then the media will be much more favourable for the independence movement.
There is also the fact that there are very few Labour mp’s left to help with Better together 2 these days. It will be a Tory dominated campaign next time round which will also help the independence cause.


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Viva_Palmeiras
17-11-2018, 07:12 AM
If the EEN goes who is going to print our cup final victory specials?

The Scotsman has gone right downhil. it went online without creating/retaining any distinguishing features with buzz feed links that any online entity could do - trivia pish and unruly online forums with a high numpty quotiant.

I know he often divides opinion (and all too fond of a music ref) but I do like reading Aidan Smiths articles many of which have a Hibs slant ranging from 100-10%

Fuzzywuzzy
17-11-2018, 07:18 AM
Always remember the newsagent staying open until 6:30 and men queuing to get the pink. Always thought it was weird sight as a kid. That said, it is a pile of poo with a dreadful website. I appreciate journalism has changed but taking stuff directly from forums, Facebook, Instagram and Twitter is just poor journalism

MrSmith
17-11-2018, 07:23 AM
Sorry to hear as people will end up without a job. Not great going into Xmas.
To be honest not bought a newspaper (except after winning cup finals) since early 2000’s.
Online media has killed the written press.

i just won’t buy a newspaper. Online does the job but I feel the damage is done through editorial agenda. The EN & Scotsman Unioist/Hearts/theRangers agenda is pretty much forefront of its demise.

offshorehibby
17-11-2018, 07:50 AM
Sorry to hear of the possibility of people loosing their jobs but Johnston Press have destroyed to great news papers. I mind the days i would wait for the City final to be delivered before buying it.

Sad to say Mrs OS goes straight to the deaths page in the news most days.

Beefster
17-11-2018, 08:17 AM
We talk about stuff like ‘Hibs Class’ and then have posters effectively celebrating the demise of an independent employer, which raises the possibility of thousands of job losses. All because of trivial disagreement with their reporting, political/sporting line or the number of adverts on their website.

DaveF
17-11-2018, 08:29 AM
Seems like they may have cobbled together a deal to keep it going but will ditch the pension scheme as a result. Article on BBC.

Squirrel 1875
17-11-2018, 08:40 AM
We talk about stuff like ‘Hibs Class’ and then have posters effectively celebrating the demise of an independent employer, which raises the possibility of thousands of job losses. All because of trivial disagreement with their reporting, political/sporting line or the number of adverts on their website.

Not only are the arguments raised trivial but completely subjective. Take a look at Kickback and you’ll see they think the same thing only that it’s hibs who receive the glowing coverage.

I’ll be sad to see The Scotsman go. I used to buy a copy everyday before I moved to Ireland.

Scotland’s newspapers have really struggled since the independence referendum. People may celebrate their demise but these journalists often uncover scandals that would otherwise never come to public knowledge.

Squirrel 1875
17-11-2018, 08:45 AM
This is actually a perfect example of what I refer to in my previous post.

Perceived bias in a situation where there is no bias, only the reporting of facts.

Article
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.scotsman.com/news/politics/right-wing-activist-tommy-robinson-promises-hearts-visit-after-masked-group-photo-1-4830448/amp

Kickback response
http://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index.php?/topic/180138-press-running-scared/

BoomtownHibees
17-11-2018, 09:08 AM
It will just come back as The Edinburgh Evening News anyway

Ozyhibby
17-11-2018, 09:09 AM
We talk about stuff like ‘Hibs Class’ and then have posters effectively celebrating the demise of an independent employer, which raises the possibility of thousands of job losses. All because of trivial disagreement with their reporting, political/sporting line or the number of adverts on their website.

There is still a demand for local news so it will be supplied by someone. This company had long since stopped doing the things that made it a good source of local news. Other with better business models will step into the void. It’s creative destruction. It’s normal.


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oneone73
17-11-2018, 09:22 AM
There is still a demand for local news so it will be supplied by someone. This company had long since stopped doing the things that made it a good source of local news. Other with better business models will step into the void. It’s creative destruction. It’s normal.


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There's no void. All that's happened is that incompetent management have been able to shed the debt and walk away from employee pension obligations. The papers will actually be stronger.
All that's happened is that, as usual, the workers - and that's not just the journalists - have been shafted. But chortle away, everyone.

WhileTheChief..
17-11-2018, 09:25 AM
We talk about stuff like ‘Hibs Class’ and then have posters effectively celebrating the demise of an independent employer, which raises the possibility of thousands of job losses. All because of trivial disagreement with their reporting, political/sporting line or the number of adverts on their website.

I tend to agree.

You can extend that to all parts of the media really and I’d include the Daily Record in Sun in that too.

It’s fashionable just to call them rags and tell everyone you’ve never bought them for 20+ years yet folk still care what they have to say!

We all want the press to write positive stuff about our club and show our rivals in the worst possible light. If they don’t, we slate them.

Same goes for BBC or anyone else who passes comment on Scottish football.

chrisski33
17-11-2018, 09:28 AM
This is actually a perfect example of what I refer to in my previous post.

Perceived bias in a situation where there is no bias, only the reporting of facts.

Article
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.scotsman.com/news/politics/right-wing-activist-tommy-robinson-promises-hearts-visit-after-masked-group-photo-1-4830448/amp

Kickback response
http://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index.php?/topic/180138-press-running-scared/

Funny that we see it as a hearts paper and they see it as q hibs paper!

Ozyhibby
17-11-2018, 09:44 AM
I tend to agree.

You can extend that to all parts of the media really and I’d include the Daily Record in Sun in that too.

It’s fashionable just to call them rags and tell everyone you’ve never bought them for 20+ years yet folk still care what they have to say!

We all want the press to write positive stuff about our club and show our rivals in the worst possible light. If they don’t, we slate them.

Same goes for BBC or anyone else who passes comment on Scottish football.

When newspapers take political positions then there are always people who will be happy to see them gone. Not sure why anyone is surprised by this?
If the Daily Mail shut down tomorrow I would be delighted and not give a 2nd thought to anyone who worked there as they are there everyday doing something I fundamentally disagree with. I’ll be happy that they are about to get a new less hateful job and I’ll wish them well in their new life.
We have almost full employment so their staff will quickly find new employment.


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Scotty Leither
17-11-2018, 09:45 AM
There's no void. All that's happened is that incompetent management have been able to shed the debt and walk away from employee pension obligations. The papers will actually be stronger.
All that's happened is that, as usual, the workers - and that's not just the journalists - have been shafted. But chortle away, everyone.

Yup, that just about nails it for me. I used to buy the Scotsman every day and the Saturday morning edition with the weekend supplement was different class.

It had a broad editorial range as well from Massie through to the late great Ian Bell. Enter Andra Neil who at the behest of the odious Barclay brothers spiked any articles by the likes of Lesley Riddoch, and that balanced reporting that was the Scotsman's strong suit (IMO) was gone.

Last time I read it the letters page was full of ex-army colonels and retired GPs with Perthshire and Morningside addresses barking at the moon.

I think its circulation of actual bought copies had dropped to around 14,000 a day?

As others have said though, as usual it's the workers that will suffer, and if there is a £40m hole in the pension fund then the directors should be held legally accountable for that.

Beefster
17-11-2018, 10:23 AM
When newspapers take political positions then there are always people who will be happy to see them gone. Not sure why anyone is surprised by this?
If the Daily Mail shut down tomorrow I would be delighted and not give a 2nd thought to anyone who worked there as they are there everyday doing something I fundamentally disagree with. I’ll be happy that they are about to get a new less hateful job and I’ll wish them well in their new life.
We have almost full employment so their staff will quickly find new employment.


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Using that logic, no job loss is worth caring about because, you know, full employment and that. They'll be back in a job quickly.

Or the reality may be that any kind of job uncertainty, especially close to the end of the year, can have a devastating impact on the employees and their families.

It's ironic given how often I get accused of being a Tory or a right-wing roaster (I'm neither btw - although I'll take the roaster bit) that this might be the first time I've ever thought 'FFS, he sounds like a particularly extreme Tory' about a poster.

MurrayfieldHibs
17-11-2018, 10:24 AM
Yup, that just about nails it for me. I used to buy the Scotsman every day and the Saturday morning edition with the weekend supplement was different class.

It had a broad editorial range as well from Massie through to the late great Ian Bell. Enter Andra Neil who at the behest of the odious Barclay brothers spiked any articles by the likes of Lesley Riddoch, and that balanced reporting that was the Scotsman's strong suit (IMO) was gone.

Last time I read it the letters page was full of ex-army colonels and retired GPs with Perthshire and Morningside addresses barking at the moon.

I think its circulation of actual bought copies had dropped to around 14,000 a day?

As others have said though, as usual it's the workers that will suffer, and if there is a £40m hole in the pension fund then the directors should be held legally accountable for that.

The staff will take the pain from this - their pensions have been hit and there will no doubt be wage cuts and redundancies.

It looks like the major shareholder isn't happy -
https://twitter.com/Ian_Fraser/status/1063725790762799105

Like many others I stopped buying the Scotsman years ago due to their lies and political bias. The Scotsman was one of the many reasons I started reading on-line journalism as I knew I couldn't trust the papers I had been paying for.

This looks like itis just a pre-pack to dump the debts (including pension liabilities) and restart with the same old bias.

MurrayfieldHibs
17-11-2018, 10:27 AM
The staff will take the pain from this - their pensions have been hit and there will no doubt be wage cuts and redundancies.

It looks like the major shareholder isn't happy -
https://twitter.com/Ian_Fraser/status/1063725790762799105

Like many others I stopped buying the Scotsman years ago due to their lies and political bias. The Scotsman was one of the many reasons I started reading on-line journalism as I knew I couldn't trust the papers I had been paying for.

This looks like itis just a pre-pack to dump the debts (including pension liabilities) and restart with the same old bias.

21412

lord bunberry
17-11-2018, 10:28 AM
I’ve never liked the Scotsman, but the Evening News was a tradition for a huge number of people including me growing up. I used to deliver it when I was at school and I used to buy it every night as an adult. I remember looking out my bedroom window on a Saturday after the game to see the pink getting delivered and rushing down to get one.
It’s quite sad that it turned into the awful newspaper that it has. It comes out in the morning and has not been printed in this area for years. It’s not just the sport that went downhill it’s everything about it. Hopefully it can be saved and people don’t lose their jobs, but I won’t be rushing to buy it anytime soon.

WhileTheChief..
17-11-2018, 10:29 AM
When newspapers take political positions then there are always people who will be happy to see them gone. Not sure why anyone is surprised by this?
If the Daily Mail shut down tomorrow I would be delighted and not give a 2nd thought to anyone who worked there as they are there everyday doing something I fundamentally disagree with. I’ll be happy that they are about to get a new less hateful job and I’ll wish them well in their new life.
We have almost full employment so their staff will quickly find new employment.


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Fair dos. I just don’t have that strong an opinion about a paper.

I never read the News of the World but cant say I was clamouring for it to be shut down.

Newspaper sales are probably declining everywhere but hopefully there will still be decent journalism in digital and tv.

I think it’s really important, especially with things like Brexit and Trump to tackle.

Football reporting is almost irrelevant due to social media and the tv exposure.

I get most of my Hibs news on here and only ever check the EEN website if it’s linked from here.

Dashing Bob S
17-11-2018, 10:35 AM
The staff will take the pain from this - their pensions have been hit and there will no doubt be wage cuts and redundancies.

It looks like the major shareholder isn't happy -
https://twitter.com/Ian_Fraser/status/1063725790762799105

Like many others I stopped buying the Scotsman years ago due to their lies and political bias. The Scotsman was one of the many reasons I started reading on-line journalism as I knew I couldn't trust the papers I had been paying for.

This looks like itis just a pre-pack to dump the debts (including pension liabilities) and restart with the same old bias.

100% this. All print media is going to struggle now but the Scotsman cut its own throat in setting itself up as a carping, snidey, whingey, reactionary voice against any positive change in this country - and doing it in the most turgid, dull and uninspired way possible. Yes, always sad when an old city institution bites the dust, and it has given voice to some decent writers over the years. But on balance its staid parochialism has sustained a culture of change aversive mediocrity which has held back this city and country for decades, and which urgently needs cast aside if we are ever going to emerge as a positive, dynamic and vibrant force in a rapidly changing world. So good riddance to that tired old claptrap. It won’t be missed at all.

Keith_M
17-11-2018, 10:37 AM
The Scotsman has turned into an ultra Unionist meeting point, with rabid anti-Scottish, too wee and too stupid articles and comments.

If they do start up again under new ownership, I'd hope they do something about their editorial views and that nutters the frequent the comments section.



The Evening News is the home of Banderson, so enuf said about that.

Eyrie
17-11-2018, 10:42 AM
Last time I looked the Scotsman had columns by Lesley Riddoch, Joyce McMillan, Kenny McAskill and Dani Garivelli, none of whom are unionist stooges.

And if it's acceptable to have pro-independence papers then we need pro-union papers for balance. Both sides need held to account and politicians are too busy with petty point scoring to do that.

Personally I'll continue to look for news from both sides because I'm not narrow minded enough to close my ears to what I don't agree with.

seanshow
17-11-2018, 10:45 AM
With a bit of luck the written weegia will be closely behind going t*ts up.

Time to celebrate the demise of the written press, good *** riddance. :greengrin

MurrayfieldHibs
17-11-2018, 10:45 AM
The Scotsman has turned into an ultra Unionist meeting point, with rabid anti-Scottish, too wee and too stupid articles and comments.

If they do start up again under new ownership, I'd hope they do something about their editorial views and that nutters the frequent the comments section.



The Evening News is the home of Banderson, so enuf said about that.

What I want is balanced journalism covering all aspects of life in an unbased way. I currently support one particular political party and want them to be under scrutiny - same as all the other parties. I also want the management of my football team to be under scrutiny - imagine living in the Butcher era and being constantly told everything is ok?No thanks.

Think this graphic says a lot-
21413

ancient hibee
17-11-2018, 10:45 AM
Interesting how many nats are crowing at the possibility of fellow Scots being thrown out of work.You can only work here if you agree with us eh?

Lemonade
17-11-2018, 10:47 AM
What do people mean when they say the group is ditching its pension liabilities ?

MurrayfieldHibs
17-11-2018, 10:51 AM
Interesting how many nats are crowing at the possibility of fellow Scots being thrown out of work.You can only work here if you agree with us eh?

This is a classic example of the kind of quote (usually from Labour unionists) that put me off getting involved in this kind of discussion.

Off to do some gardening!

Lendo
17-11-2018, 10:59 AM
What do people mean when they say the group is ditching its pension liabilities ?

I’m assuming the pension scheme is being handed over to the Pension Protection Fund for management going forward. Means effectively that members will only receive 90% of the value of their fund and be capped at circa £35k pa.

Lemonade
17-11-2018, 11:05 AM
I’m assuming the pension scheme is being handed over to the Pension Protection Fund for management going forward. Means effectively that members will only receive 90% of the value of their fund and be capped at circa £35k pa.

Thanks.

Glory Lurker
17-11-2018, 11:14 AM
Is the Pension Protection Fund effectively a taxpayer bail out, or do the contributions made to it by schemes while they are operating enough to let the Fund itself borrow what it needs to pay out?

WhileTheChief..
17-11-2018, 11:18 AM
Effectively the latter. Final salary schemes pay a levy.

Keith_M
17-11-2018, 11:18 AM
What I want is balanced journalism covering all aspects of life in an unbased way. I currently support one particular political party and want them to be under scrutiny - same as all the other parties. I also want the management of my football team to be under scrutiny - imagine living in the Butcher era and being constantly told everything is ok?No thanks.

Think this graphic says a lot-
21413


:agree:


I totally agree.

Balanced reporting would be a very good start. They could take a tip from the Herald, who seem to report politics in a reasonably fair way.

Incidentally, they also have incredibly good articles on non OF teams, and I've read some gems related to Hibs recently.

Keith_M
17-11-2018, 11:19 AM
Interesting how many nats are crowing at the possibility of fellow Scots being thrown out of work.You can only work here if you agree with us eh?


No, the viewpoint has generally been a complaint about biased reporting. I can't argue with that.

Glory Lurker
17-11-2018, 11:20 AM
Effectively the latter. Final salary schemes pay a levy.

Thanks.

IGRIGI
17-11-2018, 11:29 AM
With their track record on reporting on independence I'll be cracking open a beer in celebration of this development.

neil7908
17-11-2018, 11:32 AM
Feel bad for the staff and don't think either the Scotsman or Evening News are as bad as some on here are suggesting.

But ultimately like others our family used to get the Scotsman every day but haven't done so in years due to the general move online and also its decreasing quality. At this point I'm not sure what it wants to be - a high quality broadsheet or a click bait tabloid?

Pretty Boy
17-11-2018, 11:55 AM
There's been a steady decline in quality and quantity for years. The EEN is little more than a leaflet padded out with adverts now. Everyone I know who still buys it give the same answer when you ask why: 'for the deaths'.

That sums up at least part of the problem.

One Day Soon
17-11-2018, 11:57 AM
If this was about the Michelin plant closing in Dundee it would rightly all be about how bad it is for the local economy, the workers affected, their families and the local supply chain. This is no different. And people are going to have their pensions plundered, just think about that. How would you feel if your pension was being smashed and the response was 'meh, it's a price worth paying'?

I'm about as anti-Nat as it's possible to be - both on independence and on the performance of the Nats in running Scotland over the last 11 years - but if The National folded I'd think it was a bad day for our press in Scotland. Not perhaps, in my view, for journalistic standards but certainly for the notion of a plural media where democratic debate is supported by a range of opinion. The Scotsman does feature a wide range of contributors from people of both independence and union perspectives as others have already said and I'm not sure that the National does that. And anything that would leave us more dependent upon the tender mercies of the Red Tops for printed press new has to be a bad thing.

It was important enough for Salmond in a previous life to want to try to lead a consortium to take it over too and while I'm not naive about his then motive with that it does speak to the importance of the paper.

It's not clear either how it helps in the wooing stakes for pro-indy people to be gloating over its demise (though it looks to me more like a reinvention than a closing of doors) but in political terms that's their call.

malcolm
17-11-2018, 12:12 PM
If this was about the Michelin plant closing in Dundee it would rightly all be about how bad it is for the local economy, the workers affected, their families and the local supply chain. This is no different. And people are going to have their pensions plundered, just think about that. How would you feel if your pension was being smashed and the response was 'meh, it's a price worth paying'?

I'm about as anti-Nat as it's possible to be - both on independence and on the performance of the Nats in running Scotland over the last 11 years - but if The National folded I'd think it was a bad day for our press in Scotland. Not perhaps, in my view, for journalistic standards but certainly for the notion of a plural media where democratic debate is supported by a range of opinion. The Scotsman does feature a wide range of contributors from people of both independence and union perspectives as others have already said and I'm not sure that the National does that. And anything that would leave us more dependent upon the tender mercies of the Red Tops for printed press new has to be a bad thing.

It was important enough for Salmond in a previous life to want to try to lead a consortium to take it over too and while I'm not naive about his then motive with that it does speak to the importance of the paper.

It's not clear either how it helps in the wooing stakes for pro-indy people to be gloating over its demise (though it looks to me more like a reinvention than a closing of doors) but in political terms that's their call.
Sadly in reality probably not true since these days the whinging about media outlets that don’t confirm folks need to confirm their own bias is symptomatic of the end of ‘open eared’ debate and instead ‘fingers in the ears’ debate and fake news believers.:wink:

Curried
17-11-2018, 12:47 PM
Absolutely no sympathy for the demise of this paper. It’s been pushing, anti-Scottish propaganda for years. I’m sure the green-ink gang will be scrambling to find a foothold elsewhere, but given its recent circulation was lower than the Courier (i.e. <14K), I doubt it will be missed by anyone other than the smattering of pensioners that still support its existence.

BILLYHIBS
17-11-2018, 01:24 PM
There's been a steady decline in quality and quantity for years. The EEN is little more than a leaflet padded out with adverts now. Everyone I know who still buys it give the same answer when you ask why: 'for the deaths'.

That sums up at least part of the problem.
Where am I going to check now to make sure I am still alive?

marinello59
17-11-2018, 01:25 PM
If this was about the Michelin plant closing in Dundee it would rightly all be about how bad it is for the local economy, the workers affected, their families and the local supply chain. This is no different. And people are going to have their pensions plundered, just think about that. How would you feel if your pension was being smashed and the response was 'meh, it's a price worth paying'?

I'm about as anti-Nat as it's possible to be - both on independence and on the performance of the Nats in running Scotland over the last 11 years - but if The National folded I'd think it was a bad day for our press in Scotland. Not perhaps, in my view, for journalistic standards but certainly for the notion of a plural media where democratic debate is supported by a range of opinion. The Scotsman does feature a wide range of contributors from people of both independence and union perspectives as others have already said and I'm not sure that the National does that. And anything that would leave us more dependent upon the tender mercies of the Red Tops for printed press new has to be a bad thing.

It was important enough for Salmond in a previous life to want to try to lead a consortium to take it over too and while I'm not naive about his then motive with that it does speak to the importance of the paper.

It's not clear either how it helps in the wooing stakes for pro-indy people to be gloating over its demise (though it looks to me more like a reinvention than a closing of doors) but in political terms that's their call.

That’s a great post. Well said.

heretoday
17-11-2018, 01:34 PM
It was a great paper. When you think of that magnificent giant of a building chuntering away in Market St and the office appartment it has now become in Orchard Brae, you shake your head at the demise of the newspaper industry.

The death of the Evening News would be serious too. Local folk need local news, especially old folk. Where else are they going to get it? Certainly not on the radio or TV.

Here's hoping some buyer will come along.

heidtheba
17-11-2018, 01:38 PM
I tend to agree.

You can extend that to all parts of the media really and I’d include the Daily Record in Sun in that too.

It’s fashionable just to call them rags and tell everyone you’ve never bought them for 20+ years yet folk still care what they have to say!

We all want the press to write positive stuff about our club and show our rivals in the worst possible light. If they don’t, we slate them.

Same goes for BBC or anyone else who passes comment on Scottish football.


And politically too. Well, it is with me. Wouldn't touch one newspaper with a ten foot barge pole, and that's sad. It's sad that I won't pick up an alternative viewpoint simply because it's too alternative to what I think, but a large part of me can argue that's down to everything becoming even more polarised today. I'm too young to remember much of the media coverage during the Mrs Thatcher years and I imagine it was probably very polarised then, but at the moment? Everything is just so 'us v them'. Football. Scottish politics. UK politics. International politics. Debate is dying and shouty whataboutery is too prevalent on all sides.

It's probably just me but I'm heartily sick of the whole lot of it now.

southsider
17-11-2018, 01:40 PM
Its yesterday’s news that’s in it as well. It’s on sale at 8am in the morning

And printed in Glasgow

heretoday
17-11-2018, 01:46 PM
Where am I going to check now to make sure I am still alive?

Facebook? I'm serious.

Joe6-2
17-11-2018, 01:48 PM
Sorry to hear as people will end up without a job. Not great going into Xmas.
To be honest not bought a newspaper (except after winning cup finals) since early 2000’s.
Online media has killed the written press.

So has their skewed reporting

Tomsk
17-11-2018, 01:58 PM
If this was about the Michelin plant closing in Dundee it would rightly all be about how bad it is for the local economy, the workers affected, their families and the local supply chain. This is no different. And people are going to have their pensions plundered, just think about that. How would you feel if your pension was being smashed and the response was 'meh, it's a price worth paying'?

I'm about as anti-Nat as it's possible to be - both on independence and on the performance of the Nats in running Scotland over the last 11 years - but if The National folded I'd think it was a bad day for our press in Scotland. Not perhaps, in my view, for journalistic standards but certainly for the notion of a plural media where democratic debate is supported by a range of opinion. The Scotsman does feature a wide range of contributors from people of both independence and union perspectives as others have already said and I'm not sure that the National does that. And anything that would leave us more dependent upon the tender mercies of the Red Tops for printed press new has to be a bad thing.

It was important enough for Salmond in a previous life to want to try to lead a consortium to take it over too and while I'm not naive about his then motive with that it does speak to the importance of the paper.

It's not clear either how it helps in the wooing stakes for pro-indy people to be gloating over its demise (though it looks to me more like a reinvention than a closing of doors) but in political terms that's their call.

Excellent post.

I would also add that if the Scotsman goes under it will be demise of any vestiges of a national media voice emanating from outside Glasgow.

The 90+2
17-11-2018, 02:05 PM
It was a great paper. When you think of that magnificent giant of a building chuntering away in Market St and the office appartment it has now become in Orchard Brae, you shake your head at the demise of the newspaper industry.

The death of the Evening News would be serious too. Local folk need local news, especially old folk. Where else are they going to get it? Certainly not on the radio or TV.

Here's hoping some buyer will come along.

Edinburgh reporter I’m guessing. The pink was best paper in the world back in the day. I was proud to deliver it 😀

Earlydelivery
17-11-2018, 02:17 PM
Thank god my Mrs had the hindsight to transfer her pension when Johnston press made her redundant.

Squirrel 1875
17-11-2018, 03:32 PM
The independence referendum should have been a time for the Scottish press to come alive and create space for debate and inform opinion. It sadly failed to achieve this, printing poor articles and taking a very one sided editorial stance. The decline in sales since then is symptomatic of that.

What makes me incredibly uncomfortable is the constant spewing of the words “fake news”. As a journalist myself I highly doubt The Scotsman has ever deliberately printed malicious lies. Without doubt it had an editorial stance during the referendum, but I can’t think of any outright lies it told and I voted yes.

Holding power to account is an important aspect of creating a functioning democratic society. Newspapers help us to do this. SNP supporters have become very defensive of any story which even slightly critices the Scottish Government, greeting anything with claims of it being “anti-Scottish”. I’d prefer my press to be inquisitive rather than a Government press release sheet like The National.

When I was back in Edinburgh recently I picked up a copy of The Scotsman and it had an editorial defending the Scottish Government and a column by Loki (pro-independence commentator). I fear the same people who are criticizing the paper on this thread haven’t actually picked up a copy in some times and are dishing out an uninformed opinion.

I find it incredible the demise of debate in Scotland. I think this is a sad reflection of our society.

Keith_M
17-11-2018, 03:33 PM
Excellent post.

I would also add that if the Scotsman goes under it will be demise of any vestiges of a national media voice emanating from outside Glasgow.


Sorry to disagree but I think that ship sailed a long time ago, at least with The Scotsman.

I hate the rag that is the Daily Record (or Daily Mirror, Scottish branch) but, as I mentioned earlier, you could do worse than read the Herald now and again. It's not so Glasgow centric as you might think and is reasonably balance politically.

I'm an independence supporter, but I wouldn't read the National because it's too one sided. I think the Herald treats each side much more fairly.

Just Alf
17-11-2018, 03:51 PM
Quite simply they've not kept up with the times, nowadays many people use online media first then maybe buy a paper, as a way of enticing new/occasional readers to buy their papers their Web offering is woeful, its almost like its been set up by a competitor to put them under and management haven't noticed.

As for the editorial stance, I've not read it in a while as it was, to me at least, too much the opposite of my view, reading above I've either been unlucky in the editions I bought or its changed over time.

For what it's worth having only polar opposites being published (indy/no or Brexit etc) is a bad road to go down, people will only read what appeals (see my previous paragraph!) so will never change their opinion on something, we really need some quality balanced reporting that shows arguments from both sides of an issue, it's there that change can happen.


Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Beefster
17-11-2018, 03:58 PM
The independence referendum should have been a time for the Scottish press to come alive and create space for debate and inform opinion. It sadly failed to achieve this, printing poor articles and taking a very one sided editorial stance. The decline in sales since then is symptomatic of that.

What makes me incredibly uncomfortable is the constant spewing of the words “fake news”. As a journalist myself I highly doubt The Scotsman has ever deliberately printed malicious lies. Without doubt it had an editorial stance during the referendum, but I can’t think of any outright lies it told and I voted yes.

Holding power to account is an important aspect of creating a functioning democratic society. Newspapers help us to do this. SNP supporters have become very defensive of any story which even slightly critices the Scottish Government, greeting anything with claims of it being “anti-Scottish”. I’d prefer my press to be inquisitive rather than a Government press release sheet like The National.

When I was back in Edinburgh recently I picked up a copy of The Scotsman and it had an editorial defending the Scottish Government and a column by Loki (pro-independence commentator). I fear the same people who are criticizing the paper on this thread haven’t actually picked up a copy in some times and are dishing out an uninformed opinion.

I find it incredible the demise of debate in Scotland. I think this is a sad reflection of our society.

I suspect that most folks' opinions on the Scotsman and EEN is shaped by either some nationalist moaning about it on Twitter or the truly awful websites. I include myself in that - I've barely read either in years.

You're absolutely spot on about the decline in political discourse. It's a general issue though. See the Brexiteers in England and Republicans in the US as other examples of the same phenomenon.

Curried
17-11-2018, 04:01 PM
The independence referendum should have been a time for the Scottish press to come alive and create space for debate and inform opinion. It sadly failed to achieve this, printing poor articles and taking a very one sided editorial stance. The decline in sales since then is symptomatic of that.

What makes me incredibly uncomfortable is the constant spewing of the words “fake news”. As a journalist myself I highly doubt The Scotsman has ever deliberately printed malicious lies. Without doubt it had an editorial stance during the referendum, but I can’t think of any outright lies it told and I voted yes.

Holding power to account is an important aspect of creating a functioning democratic society. Newspapers help us to do this. SNP supporters have become very defensive of any story which even slightly critices the Scottish Government, greeting anything with claims of it being “anti-Scottish”. I’d prefer my press to be inquisitive rather than a Government press release sheet like The National.

When I was back in Edinburgh recently I picked up a copy of The Scotsman and it had an editorial defending the Scottish Government and a column by Loki (pro-independence commentator). I fear the same people who are criticizing the paper on this thread haven’t actually picked up a copy in some times and are dishing out an uninformed opinion.

I find it incredible the demise of debate in Scotland. I think this is a sad reflection of our society.

I suggest you have a long, hard, look at the best-recommended comments from this British National establishment publication debating The (The:-) Scotsman’s demise:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/15/the-scotsman-future-liberal-voice (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/15/the-scotsman-future-liberal-voice)

“Oh come on, it might have been a great journalistic firebrand once but it's been little but a whining, right-wing Unionist mouthpiece since Neil was at the helm -- and that wasn't yesterday.”

“The Orange Order's in -house magazine these days. Comments section polluted by sectarian knuckle-draggers.”

“The Scotsman may once have been a proud liberal paper but those days are long gone. It's now a rabid British nationalist rag. Just have a read of the comments below the bylines or the green ink gang in the letters section. Any paper that employs the likes of Jill Stephenson to sprout her hateful bile deserves to consigned to the dustbin. A sad end to a once proud paper but one that was partially self inflicted.”

“I was once a regular reader when it was a quality broadsheet, with great balanced reporting and great Scottish sport coverage (take note Guardian). I stopped when it moved down market and pinned its colours to the Unionist cause. Will I be sad if it goes under? Yes, it was once a good paper but it is the architect of its own downfall. Scotland needs a quality non-aligned newspaper which gives a forensic but fair analysis of the political scene north and south of the border.”

“The Scotsman sealed its own fate by its unthinking support of the Union. It has been consistently biased against independence for years and is now so far out of touch with its potential readership that it can't survive.”

“It had a very good chance to show that it was still a voice of 'Scottish aspiration' in 2014; instead it followed 95% of the Scottish media in the 'too wee, too poor' mantra of unionism. Can't say I'll be shedding too many tears at its demise then.”

“The Scotsman is a reactionary, right wing rag not fit for use as bum wipe. It's been in a death spiral for the last 20 years and nobody will miss it when it's gone.”

“The Scotsman is British Nationalist paper and that's why Scots have stopped reading it. Good riddance.”

“The Scotsman was bought and wrecked by the Barclays - who were admirers of and political travellers with Mrs Thatcher, and completely out of touch with Scottish public opinion. It has been a sad shadow of its former self for over twenty years. Since Magnus Linklater's time as editor, much of its coverage of Scottish politics has been weak and febrile. It has lost touch with its natural liberal and intellectual readership, becoming instead a thin concoction of often reactionary commentary, twee spreads on posh Edinburgh properties, parish pump controversies and not very funny gossip. The Scotsman was once Scotland's version of the Guardian but that was an age ago. I don't think it's ever likely to regain its reputation as Scotland's liberal and high minded paper of record, so let it pass into history. Few, other than those of us who can remember its glory days in the 1970s and 1980s, will mourn its passing.”

Ozyhibby
17-11-2018, 04:22 PM
The independence referendum should have been a time for the Scottish press to come alive and create space for debate and inform opinion. It sadly failed to achieve this, printing poor articles and taking a very one sided editorial stance. The decline in sales since then is symptomatic of that.

What makes me incredibly uncomfortable is the constant spewing of the words “fake news”. As a journalist myself I highly doubt The Scotsman has ever deliberately printed malicious lies. Without doubt it had an editorial stance during the referendum, but I can’t think of any outright lies it told and I voted yes.

Holding power to account is an important aspect of creating a functioning democratic society. Newspapers help us to do this. SNP supporters have become very defensive of any story which even slightly critices the Scottish Government, greeting anything with claims of it being “anti-Scottish”. I’d prefer my press to be inquisitive rather than a Government press release sheet like The National.

When I was back in Edinburgh recently I picked up a copy of The Scotsman and it had an editorial defending the Scottish Government and a column by Loki (pro-independence commentator). I fear the same people who are criticizing the paper on this thread haven’t actually picked up a copy in some times and are dishing out an uninformed opinion.

I find it incredible the demise of debate in Scotland. I think this is a sad reflection of our society.

I think even the people defending the Scotsman haven’t picked up a copy in a while either which is why it is in the situation it is.
If you are going to pick sides which is what the Scotsman done in 2014 then they should not be surprised when people on the other side turn their back on you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Squirrel 1875
17-11-2018, 04:28 PM
I suspect that most folks' opinions on the Scotsman and EEN is shaped by either some nationalist moaning about it on Twitter or the truly awful websites. I include myself in that - I've barely read either in years.

You're absolutely spot on about the decline in political discourse. It's a general issue though. See the Brexiteers in England and Republicans in the US as other examples of the same phenomenon.

There are plenty accounts moaning about the Scottish media landscape as being biased, both unionist and nationalist. The sad thing is that Scotland doesn’t have a newspaper with its reputation unscathed after the independence referendum. Some posts praise The Herald, but I recall they took just as harsh a stance to nationalism as The Scotsman did. They recently created two separate Sunday newspapers to cater for their unionist and nationalist audiences, something which I personally find bizzare.

Unfortunately, I think Scotland’s newspapers have failed to make themselves relevant, despite the golden opportunity the independence referendum and Brexit represented. I had high hopes for The National, but when my family back home (all avid yes voters) won’t buy it because it’s just repeating the Government line I think you know it’s reputation is suffering.

Tomsk
17-11-2018, 04:29 PM
Sorry to disagree but I think that ship sailed a long time ago, at least with The Scotsman.

I hate the rag that is the Daily Record (or Daily Mirror, Scottish branch) but, as I mentioned earlier, you could do worse than read the Herald now and again. It's not so Glasgow centric as you might think and is reasonably balance politically.

I'm an independence supporter, but I wouldn't read the National because it's too one sided. I think the Herald treats each side much more fairly.

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with. If you're saying the Scotsman is less and less an Edinburgh paper I would agree with you, and is why I used the term 'any vestiges'. Some of the journalists working on the Scotsman and News don't know the first thing about Edinburgh.

heretoday
17-11-2018, 05:02 PM
The independence referendum should have been a time for the Scottish press to come alive and create space for debate and inform opinion. It sadly failed to achieve this, printing poor articles and taking a very one sided editorial stance. The decline in sales since then is symptomatic of that.

What makes me incredibly uncomfortable is the constant spewing of the words “fake news”. As a journalist myself I highly doubt The Scotsman has ever deliberately printed malicious lies. Without doubt it had an editorial stance during the referendum, but I can’t think of any outright lies it told and I voted yes.

Holding power to account is an important aspect of creating a functioning democratic society. Newspapers help us to do this. SNP supporters have become very defensive of any story which even slightly critices the Scottish Government, greeting anything with claims of it being “anti-Scottish”. I’d prefer my press to be inquisitive rather than a Government press release sheet like The National.

When I was back in Edinburgh recently I picked up a copy of The Scotsman and it had an editorial defending the Scottish Government and a column by Loki (pro-independence commentator). I fear the same people who are criticizing the paper on this thread haven’t actually picked up a copy in some times and are dishing out an uninformed opinion.

I find it incredible the demise of debate in Scotland. I think this is a sad reflection of our society.

Good post. I think for a lot of people just having a newspaper in their hands fulfills a need of sorts! The Scotsman was always the "newspaper of record" for those in and around the capital and whether you agreed with its editorial line or not you had the certainty of knowing that you'd be able to find stuff you needed inside, be it Deaths and Marriages or whatever. You'd get the same useful information from The Times or The Daily Telegraph. The key word is Information.

I have to say that the Scotsman website, which to their credit is still free to view, is a hard thing to get around. Maybe it's my PC but the site jumps about and takes a long time to load the pages.

During the referendum, I found the Scotsman to be pretty fair on the whole, as was The Herald. They published letters from both sides and I can recall articles by, among others, Lesley Riddoch, a pro-indy commentator.

Curried
17-11-2018, 05:15 PM
Good post. I think for a lot of people just having a newspaper in their hands fulfills a need of sorts! The Scotsman was always the "newspaper of record" for those in and around the capital and whether you agreed with its editorial line or not you had the certainty of knowing that you'd be able to find stuff you needed inside, be it Deaths and Marriages or whatever. You'd get the same useful information from The Times or The Daily Telegraph. The key word is Information.

I have to say that the Scotsman website, which to their credit is still free to view, is a hard thing to get around. Maybe it's my PC but the site jumps about and takes a long time to load the pages.

During the referendum, I found the Scotsman to be pretty fair on the whole, as was The Herald. They published letters from both sides and I can recall articles by, among others, Lesley Riddoch, a pro-indy commentator.


Aye Right. Short memory maybe:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-29154239

Spike Mandela
17-11-2018, 05:20 PM
Used to deliver the Evening News and the Pink as a paper boy. I remember asking Abdul the newsagent to increase my pay from £1.15 a week and he put it up to £1.25.😀 Made sure I read the Pink from cover to cover when delivering it.

Truth is nowadays I never buy a paper. I try and get my news from a wide variety of outlets instead of one agenda driven publication.

Good journalism is hard to find and media organisations really need to get with the times to prosper in these social media driven times. Which brings good things and of course some bad.

Can’t believe I used to walk miles in holiday resorts to get a day old Daily Record to read. Nowadays I wouldn’t take a Daily Record if offered a free lifetime supply. Unbelievable that I used to get football news through the blinkered eyes of the likes of Jim Traynor. People are so much more media savvy now.

Waxy
17-11-2018, 05:26 PM
This time next year we’ll be reading the Edinburgh evening news experience.

Jackh
17-11-2018, 05:34 PM
One for the fans reps?

heretoday
17-11-2018, 05:48 PM
Aye Right. Short memory maybe:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-29154239

Yes they did take a No line in general but you don't get a quality paper just to read what you agree with. I read the Scotsman and often the Herald throughout the campaign and in no way did I feel I was being brainwashed.
Keep reading the National if you just want one side of the story.

NAE NOOKIE
17-11-2018, 05:49 PM
If this was about the Michelin plant closing in Dundee it would rightly all be about how bad it is for the local economy, the workers affected, their families and the local supply chain. This is no different. And people are going to have their pensions plundered, just think about that. How would you feel if your pension was being smashed and the response was 'meh, it's a price worth paying'?

I'm about as anti-Nat as it's possible to be - both on independence and on the performance of the Nats in running Scotland over the last 11 years - but if The National folded I'd think it was a bad day for our press in Scotland. Not perhaps, in my view, for journalistic standards but certainly for the notion of a plural media where democratic debate is supported by a range of opinion. The Scotsman does feature a wide range of contributors from people of both independence and union perspectives as others have already said and I'm not sure that the National does that. And anything that would leave us more dependent upon the tender mercies of the Red Tops for printed press new has to be a bad thing.

It was important enough for Salmond in a previous life to want to try to lead a consortium to take it over too and while I'm not naive about his then motive with that it does speak to the importance of the paper.

It's not clear either how it helps in the wooing stakes for pro-indy people to be gloating over its demise (though it looks to me more like a reinvention than a closing of doors) but in political terms that's their call.

It doesn't, but it unashamedly doesn't. The whole point of the National was to produce a paper to counteract the overwhelming anti independence editorial stance of the print media in this country and in a lot of cases fervently anti independence like the Daily Mail and Daily Express. The only paper available to counteract that was the Sunday Herald and now sadly even that has been closed.

In that landscape bereft of any balanced view regarding Scotland's place in the world in our printed media what wasn't required was a paper with a balanced view, it was a paper aimed at people who already had a pro independence view and who needed something to counteract the 'too wee' 'too poor' 'too stupid' stance of the other papers and their overwhelmingly right wing owners printing stuff that was in many instances nothing short of downright lies.

At least the National is an honest paper and doesn't pretend it is presenting a 'balanced' view but rather printing stuff which reflects and presents the positives an independent Scotland could bring, though it does also acknowledge the difficulties becoming an independent nation could present in a reasonably honest fashion.

As for the Scotsman …. I think I have purchased the paper about 20 times in the last 5 years so I cant really comment on how pro or anti independence it is, but the general consensus seems to be that it had gone the way of the rest of the media in Scotland, so its hardly a surprise that by just being another tiny fish swimming in the pool of big fish all pushing pro union and anti independence / SNP propaganda down everybody's throat it has begun to flounder.

The situation that lead to the advent of the National can be illustrated by what happened during the referendum. On every talk show where people were taking part what you had was, for example Question time, where the subject was Scottish independence and the panel was made up of:

Kezia Dugdale … pro union
Ruth Davidson … pro union
Willie Rennie … pro union
A/N other … probably the editor of some pro union rag
John Swinney … pro independence

Welcome to Perth and our first question comes from Torquil Toryboy:

'Thanks David … could Scotland survive as an independent country?'

Dugdale …. 5 minutes on why not
Davidson … 5 minutes on why not
Rennie … 3 minutes on why not
Pro union rag editor …. 3 minutes on why not
Swinney … 3 minutes on why, during which he is constantly interrupted by Dimbleby and the 4 other panel members.

That's what a balanced approach to democracy looks like in this country … perhaps we need a 'National' TV station as well.

Scotty Leither
17-11-2018, 05:53 PM
It amuses me that current affairs programmes, especially ones broadcast by the BBC, still have a lengthy debate on "what the papers say" and never reference any of the online political blogs or websites...

It's as if they're scared to acknowledge their existence, and instead blithely pontificate on what's in the rags passing as "news" despite the readership of a large number of them falling through the floor.

We can all take a sample of a broad range of opinions online these days; I even very occasionally take a look at some of the shrill witterings of Jill Stephenson and her cohorts on Scotland in Union if I'm wanting a laugh, but the print and broadcast media need to realise they don't have the same reach they once had.

andrew70
17-11-2018, 05:55 PM
https://www.andrewscornerflag.co.uk/

Hope a link to my blog is okay, please delete if not.

Read all about it...Johnston’s Press administration led me to think about the Pink newspaper and how the newspaper industry is similar to the football industry in that it’s losing its traditional identity.

There’s other football/Hibs related articles also.

Curried
17-11-2018, 05:58 PM
Yes they did take a No line in general but you don't get a quality paper just to read what you agree with. I read the Scotsman and often the Herald throughout the campaign and in no way did I feel I was being brainwashed.
Keep reading the National if you just want one side of the story.


Are you seriously trying to tell me that the Scotsman is a quality paper?

heretoday
17-11-2018, 06:13 PM
Are you seriously trying to tell me that the Scotsman is a quality paper?

Not as quality as it used to be, sadly. Maybe the new owners will raise it up again.

Curried
17-11-2018, 06:16 PM
Not as quality as it used to be, sadly. Maybe the new owners will raise it up again.


Just for perspective this is where your quality paper sits today in terms of daily circulation :-(

REGIONAL DAILY (Jan-Jun 2018)
Press & Journal (https://www.abc.org.uk/product/9327) (Aberdeen) 45,935 (https://www.abc.org.uk/Certificates/48773926.pdf) (down 2%)
The Courier (https://www.abc.org.uk/product/3069) (Dundee) 34,260 (https://www.abc.org.uk/Certificates/49055269.pdf) (down 3%)
The Herald (https://www.abc.org.uk/product/9636) (Glasgow) 24,265 (https://www.abc.org.uk/Certificates/49057344.pdf) (down 6%)
Evening Express (https://www.abc.org.uk/product/2940) (Aberdeen) 21,003 (https://www.abc.org.uk/Certificates/49053542.pdf) (down 7%)
Evening Times (https://www.abc.org.uk/product/9823) (Glasgow) 19,130 (https://www.abc.org.uk/Certificates/48776589.pdf) (down 8%)
The Scotsman (https://www.abc.org.uk/product/686) (Edinburgh) 13,739 (https://www.abc.org.uk/Certificates/49059942.pdf) (down 8%)
Evening Telegraph (https://www.abc.org.uk/product/954) (Dundee) 12,351 (https://www.abc.org.uk/Certificates/49055140.pdf) (down 7%)
Paisley Daily Express (https://www.abc.org.uk/product/2966) (Paisley) 4,378 (https://www.abc.org.uk/Certificates/49054204.pdf) (down 3%)

G B Young
17-11-2018, 07:15 PM
Just for perspective this is where your quality paper sits today in terms of daily circulation :-(

REGIONAL DAILY (Jan-Jun 2018)
Press & Journal (https://www.abc.org.uk/product/9327) (Aberdeen) 45,935 (https://www.abc.org.uk/Certificates/48773926.pdf) (down 2%)
The Courier (https://www.abc.org.uk/product/3069) (Dundee) 34,260 (https://www.abc.org.uk/Certificates/49055269.pdf) (down 3%)
The Herald (https://www.abc.org.uk/product/9636) (Glasgow) 24,265 (https://www.abc.org.uk/Certificates/49057344.pdf) (down 6%)
Evening Express (https://www.abc.org.uk/product/2940) (Aberdeen) 21,003 (https://www.abc.org.uk/Certificates/49053542.pdf) (down 7%)
Evening Times (https://www.abc.org.uk/product/9823) (Glasgow) 19,130 (https://www.abc.org.uk/Certificates/48776589.pdf) (down 8%)
The Scotsman (https://www.abc.org.uk/product/686) (Edinburgh) 13,739 (https://www.abc.org.uk/Certificates/49059942.pdf) (down 8%)
Evening Telegraph (https://www.abc.org.uk/product/954) (Dundee) 12,351 (https://www.abc.org.uk/Certificates/49055140.pdf) (down 7%)
Paisley Daily Express (https://www.abc.org.uk/product/2966) (Paisley) 4,378 (https://www.abc.org.uk/Certificates/49054204.pdf) (down 3%)

Circulations continuing to plummet across the board, with only the DC Thomson-owned P&J and Courier continuing to command respectable (by today's standards) readerships. You won't find a more Conservative-minded owner than DCT but they are canny operators. As somebody else has alluded to, the Scotsman these days is cobbled together by a skeleton staff in a non-descript office in Orchard Brae House and despite today's 'rescue' deal is likely to maintain its downward spiral. Sunday Herald has already gone under this year and I can't see either the Herald or Scotsman being around in print form for much longer.

Squirrel 1875
17-11-2018, 07:30 PM
There seems to be an attitude here that the journalism in Scotland is sub-standard but the same people sticking with this line are saying they don’t buy newspapers and only get their news online.

I’m sorry but you are wrong. Scotland has some excellent journalists, Dani Garavelli, Paris Gourtsoyannis, Martyn McLaughlin to name but a few.

I had the pleasure of writing for Cable, a Scottish online publication which reported on global affairs from Scottish journalists across the world. The quality was right up there with premium titles but sadly it too failed.

Maybe the appetite for news has changed, maybe people don’t care about being informed or maybe people are just too sensitive about reading something which challenges their opinion and view of the world. I’d certainly recommend people pick up a newspaper, like The Scotsman or The Herald, and be surprised by the various views you’ll read while informing your own take on the world.

lord bunberry
17-11-2018, 08:14 PM
The Scotsman reminds me of Scotland rugby fans. Fiercely proud to be Scottish when there’s a game on, but quick to tell you we’re not big or clever enough to run our own country the rest of the time.
Typical Edinburgh middle class pish that won’t be missed.


* I’m generalising, not all rugby fans or Scotsman readers for the above description 😂

Eyrie
17-11-2018, 10:51 PM
I think it's time this thread was moved to the Holy Ground as it has no football content, just a series of blinkered political views.

Forza Fred
18-11-2018, 12:27 AM
Continuing the world wide trend of newspaper distress, whereby people demand ‘instant news’

Will indeed be sorry to see them go.

NAE NOOKIE
18-11-2018, 12:38 AM
I think it's time this thread was moved to the Holy Ground as it has no football content, just a series of blinkered political views.

To be honest mate I don't think criticism of the press in Scotland represents a blinkered political view, in fact its the blinkered political stance of the Scottish press which has partly lead to why so many people have turned to the internet for their news and especially political opinion.

There is not a single national newspaper in this country printing a balanced view of the Scottish government's running of the country or giving anything like equal treatment to the arguments for and against independence and that's reflected in their front pages and editorials every day of the week:

The Daily Record … anti
The Sun … currently anti … though they bounce back and forward depending on where they think the money is to be fair.
The Mirror … anti
The Daily Mail . viciously anti
The Daily Express … viciously anti
The Glasgow Herald … anti
The Scotsman … anti
The rest like the Telegraph have such small circulation north of the border their opinion barely matters.

Its not a blinkered view to say that the press in Scotland is a million miles from being a reflection of the populations attitude towards the Scottish government or its views on independence because its so bloody self evident that it is, with it being massively unbalanced in its reporting of the Scottish government and its attitude towards Scottish independence.

It is absolutely the job of a free press to call to account the people in charge, to help ensure they do not abuse their power and to inform the public when they find examples of bad decision making, abuse of political position or downright dishonesty. The press in this country do not do that, most if not all of the papers mentioned above work day and night to put a bad spin on anything the SNP lead government do or have done over the last 10 years and if they cant find anything they more often than not make it up.

That is an absolute fact, not a political point of view and its something the press in this country should be utterly ashamed of …. though considering they are bye and large run from London and their editorial policy is influenced if not directly set by multi millionaire right wing owners and publishers I highly doubt they could give a toss.

Real Emerald
18-11-2018, 12:47 AM
To be honest mate I don't think criticism of the press in Scotland represents a blinkered political view, in fact its the blinkered political stance of the Scottish press which has partly lead to why so many people have turned to the internet for their news and especially political opinion.

There is not a single national newspaper in this country printing a balanced view of the Scottish government's running of the country or giving anything like equal treatment to the arguments for and against independence and that's reflected in their front pages and editorials every day of the week:

The Daily Record … anti
The Sun … currently anti … though they bounce back and forward depending on where they think the money is to be fair.
The Mirror … anti
The Daily Mail . viciously anti
The Daily Express … viciously anti
The Glasgow Herald … anti
The Scotsman … anti
The rest like the Telegraph have such small circulation north of the border their opinion barely matters.

Its not a blinkered view to say that the press in Scotland is a million miles from being a reflection of the populations attitude towards the Scottish government or its views on independence because its so bloody self evident that it is, with it being massively unbalanced in its reporting of the Scottish government and its attitude towards Scottish independence.

It is absolutely the job of a free press to call to account the people in charge, to help ensure they do not abuse their power and to inform the public when they find examples of bad decision making, abuse of political position or downright dishonesty. The press in this country do not do that, most if not all of the papers mentioned above work day and night to put a bad spin on anything the SNP lead government do or have done over the last 10 years and if they cant find anything they more often than not make it up.

That is an absolute fact, not a political point of view and its something the press in this country should be utterly ashamed of …. though considering they are bye and large run from London and their editorial policy is influenced if not directly set by multi millionaire right wing owners and publishers I highly doubt they could give a toss.

The trouble these days is everything is ‘spin’, you’re struggling to get truth and facts from anywhere and believing anything you read or hear is becoming impossible!

NAE NOOKIE
18-11-2018, 01:24 AM
The trouble these days is everything is ‘spin’, you’re struggling to get truth and facts from anywhere and believing anything you read or hear is becoming impossible!

Absolutely true mate. But that's where the real dishonesty comes in with the written press, the papers I mentioned still pretend that what they are printing is NEWS when in actual fact it is anything but, the vast majority of stories and editorials are spun to show in the worst possible light anybody and anything which opposes their pro union anti independence and especially anti SNP view.

Say what you like about sites like Wings over Scotland or Wee Ginger Dug, but they do not pretend to be anything other than what they are. In this context the biggest thing they do isn't actually promoting independence, what they do is day after day take stories from these papers and debunk the mistruths, deliberate omissions and downright lies they have used to batter the SNP and the independence movement in general.

In the case of Wings over Scotland every fact or piece of information used to show up these mistruths, deliberate omissions and downright lies has citations and links which enable the reader to fact check the information used by the site for themselves. If folk don't believe that all they have to do is log onto Wings over Scotland and check for themselves.

lord bunberry
18-11-2018, 02:59 AM
Absolutely true mate. But that's where the real dishonesty comes in with the written press, the papers I mentioned still pretend that what they are printing is NEWS when in actual fact it is anything but, the vast majority of stories and editorials are spun to show in the worst possible light anybody and anything which opposes their pro union anti independence and especially anti SNP view.

Say what you like about sites like Wings over Scotland or Wee Ginger Dug, but they do not pretend to be anything other than what they are. In this context the biggest thing they do isn't actually promoting independence, what they do is day after day take stories from these papers and debunk the mistruths, deliberate omissions and downright lies they have used to batter the SNP and the independence movement in general.

In the case of Wings over Scotland every fact or piece of information used to show up these mistruths, deliberate omissions and downright lies has citations and links which enable the reader to fact check the information used by the site for themselves. If folk don't believe that all they have to do is log onto Wings over Scotland and check for themselves.
The written press have been the masters of their own downfall. A huge chunk of the population in Scotland feel like they don’t have a voice. In politics.

Ozyhibby
18-11-2018, 07:49 AM
The written press have been the masters of their own downfall. A huge chunk of the population in Scotland feel like they don’t have a voice. In politics.

And their sports departments haven’t exactly helped either.
Deliberately ignoring the massive story that was developing at old Rangers was an absolute disgrace. I read about their use of EBT’s and side letters months before they were ever mentioned in the mainstream press on website like rangerstaxcase.com . The information was all out there for them to find the story but they deliberately ignored it.
And now I’m supposed to feel sorry for them?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Beefster
18-11-2018, 08:08 AM
And their sports departments haven’t exactly helped either.
Deliberately ignoring the massive story that was developing at old Rangers was an absolute disgrace. I read about their use of EBT’s and side letters months before they were ever mentioned in the mainstream press on website like rangerstaxcase.com . The information was all out there for them to find the story but they deliberately ignored it.
And now I’m supposed to feel sorry for them?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You don’t have to feel sorry for them. You don’t have to sound like Jacob Rees Mogg about the potential job losses either though.

superfurryhibby
18-11-2018, 08:27 AM
https://www.scotsman.com/news/obituaries/obituary-ian-wood-sports-editor-golf-columnist-1-3645331

Ian Wood’s obituary. His “Slice of Life” musings on golf and, eh, life, were worthy of collection and publication.

heretoday
18-11-2018, 09:04 AM
https://www.scotsman.com/news/obituaries/obituary-ian-wood-sports-editor-golf-columnist-1-3645331

Ian Wood’s obituary. His “Slice of Life” musings on golf and, eh, life, were worthy of collection and publication.

John Rafferty and Norman Mair were other memorable writers on sport and The Scotsman needs to find others with that ability if they want folk to start buying it every morning.

Dashing Bob S
18-11-2018, 12:50 PM
The Scotsman reminds me of Scotland rugby fans. Fiercely proud to be Scottish when there’s a game on, but quick to tell you we’re not big or clever enough to run our own country the rest of the time.
Typical Edinburgh middle class pish that won’t be missed.


* I’m generalising, not all rugby fans or Scotsman readers for the above description 😂

There is truth within that generalization

Wee Effen Bee
18-11-2018, 04:04 PM
Gutted for the staff TBF. Can’t think it’s s good thing and certainly not amusing. The paper did need to evolve long ago. The management, in sheer panic and desperation, tried to steer clear of the iceberg but are going the way of the Titanic!

superfurryhibby
18-11-2018, 04:19 PM
John Rafferty and Norman Mair were other memorable writers on sport and The Scotsman needs to find others with that ability if they want folk to start buying it every morning.

You’re right, Rafferty was a football writer and Mair covered rugby. Hugh Keevins and Mike Aitken also wrote for the paper.

I’ve a wee stash of copies of the Pink/ Evening News/Scotsman/ Scotland on Sunday bought after memorable Hibs games, going back to the late 80’s. Some brilliant stuff in them.

Moulin Yarns
18-11-2018, 04:19 PM
Buy out by some group reported but union up in arms about loss of pension

Seveno
18-11-2018, 05:42 PM
This thread had nothing to do with either Hibs or football or tolerance or concern for people’s jobs. It serves to destroy any notion of whatever is meant by ‘Hibs class’.

Can admin please move it to the Holy Ground or preferably the bin.

chrisski33
18-11-2018, 05:45 PM
The papers have been saved by JPIMedia

O'Rourke3
18-11-2018, 06:05 PM
You’re right, Rafferty was a football writer and Mair covered rugby. Hugh Keevins and Mike Aitken also wrote for the paper.

I’ve a wee stash of copies of the Pink/ Evening News/Scotsman/ Scotland on Sunday bought after memorable Hibs games, going back to the late 80’s. Some brilliant stuff in them.Mike Aiken supported the FTB's takeover of Hibs. Stopped reading him after that.

Sent from my F8331 using Tapatalk

heretoday
18-11-2018, 08:24 PM
Mike Aiken supported the FTB's takeover of Hibs. Stopped reading him after that.

Sent from my F8331 using Tapatalk

Aitken was Hearts and Ian Wood was a Hibby.

Scouse Hibee
18-11-2018, 08:29 PM
Do people still buy newspapers?

Moulin Yarns
18-11-2018, 09:43 PM
The papers have been saved by JPIMedia

The titles but whether the jobs of the staff survive is another thing.

Keith_M
18-11-2018, 09:50 PM
Do people still buy newspapers?


Mostly online, I'd imagine.

ronaldo7
19-11-2018, 11:03 AM
Absolutely true mate. But that's where the real dishonesty comes in with the written press, the papers I mentioned still pretend that what they are printing is NEWS when in actual fact it is anything but, the vast majority of stories and editorials are spun to show in the worst possible light anybody and anything which opposes their pro union anti independence and especially anti SNP view.

Say what you like about sites like Wings over Scotland or Wee Ginger Dug, but they do not pretend to be anything other than what they are. In this context the biggest thing they do isn't actually promoting independence, what they do is day after day take stories from these papers and debunk the mistruths, deliberate omissions and downright lies they have used to batter the SNP and the independence movement in general.

In the case of Wings over Scotland every fact or piece of information used to show up these mistruths, deliberate omissions and downright lies has citations and links which enable the reader to fact check the information used by the site for themselves. If folk don't believe that all they have to do is log onto Wings over Scotland and check for themselves.

Amen brother. 👍

heretoday
19-11-2018, 04:09 PM
Do people still buy newspapers?

Arl fellas like me do - especially local papers. I need to know who's popped their clogs. And the crosswords can be good for warding off dementia.:wink:

basehibby
19-11-2018, 04:14 PM
Sorry to hear as people will end up without a job. Not great going into Xmas.
To be honest not bought a newspaper (except after winning cup finals) since early 2000’s.
Online media has killed the written press.

To a large extent it has committed hari-kiri.

The written press has for a long time subscribed to a pre-ordained dogma when reporting on certain matters of international import. This leads to great guffaws in many quarters when the MSM harps on about "fake news" - because they wrote the manual and remain masters of this dark art! A great example of this was the pathetic unquestioning parroting of WMD lies in the lead up to the Iraq War - another more recent one was the largely manufactured anti-semitism "crisis" in the Labour Party. These are but a couple of examples of the established written press acting as an echo chamber to implant ideas in the public psyche which presumably serve the interests of their owners and their allies. The advent of alternative media on t'internet has served to expose this tendency and added disillusionment with the written press to the potent mix of convenience and FREENESS offered on the internet.

And apart from that the Evening News is pretty gash anyway! And the likes of Gumtree have blown them out the water in the small ads market.

Sad for journalists who are losing one of the established paths through which they can seek to earn a living - like musicians and other creatives they will have to seek alternatives. Not sad at all for the proprietors responsible for framing editorial policies that are contributing to their own downfall.

Phil MaGlass
20-11-2018, 11:01 AM
I dont wish to get into a political argument. I bought The National for the first time when I was back for the rugby on Saturday. What a refreshing read, YES it's mostly one sided, but, and this is the problem for the Een and Scotsman,the journalists know their subjects, their writing is articulate and informative,,something that has been missing in the 2 newspapers mentioned, it's a shame the papers gone to the wall, but, the quality was lost decades ago.

Phil MaGlass
20-11-2018, 11:07 AM
To be honest mate I don't think criticism of the press in Scotland represents a blinkered political view, in fact its the blinkered political stance of the Scottish press which has partly lead to why so many people have turned to the internet for their news and especially political opinion.

There is not a single national newspaper in this country printing a balanced view of the Scottish government's running of the country or giving anything like equal treatment to the arguments for and against independence and that's reflected in their front pages and editorials every day of the week:

The Daily Record … anti
The Sun … currently anti … though they bounce back and forward depending on where they think the money is to be fair.
The Mirror … anti
The Daily Mail . viciously anti
The Daily Express … viciously anti
The Glasgow Herald … anti
The Scotsman … anti
The rest like the Telegraph have such small circulation north of the border their opinion barely matters.

Its not a blinkered view to say that the press in Scotland is a million miles from being a reflection of the populations attitude towards the Scottish government or its views on independence because its so bloody self evident that it is, with it being massively unbalanced in its reporting of the Scottish government and its attitude towards Scottish independence.

It is absolutely the job of a free press to call to account the people in charge, to help ensure they do not abuse their power and to inform the public when they find examples of bad decision making, abuse of political position or downright dishonesty. The press in this country do not do that, most if not all of the papers mentioned above work day and night to put a bad spin on anything the SNP lead government do or have done over the last 10 years and if they cant find anything they more often than not make it up.

That is an absolute fact, not a political point of view and its something the press in this country should be utterly ashamed of …. though considering they are bye and large run from London and their editorial policy is influenced if not directly set by multi millionaire right wing owners and publishers I highly doubt they could give a toss.

100% everything you said

G B Young
20-11-2018, 01:57 PM
To be honest mate I don't think criticism of the press in Scotland represents a blinkered political view, in fact its the blinkered political stance of the Scottish press which has partly lead to why so many people have turned to the internet for their news and especially political opinion.

There is not a single national newspaper in this country printing a balanced view of the Scottish government's running of the country or giving anything like equal treatment to the arguments for and against independence and that's reflected in their front pages and editorials every day of the week:

The Daily Record … anti
The Sun … currently anti … though they bounce back and forward depending on where they think the money is to be fair.
The Mirror … anti
The Daily Mail . viciously anti
The Daily Express … viciously anti
The Glasgow Herald … anti
The Scotsman … anti
The rest like the Telegraph have such small circulation north of the border their opinion barely matters.

Its not a blinkered view to say that the press in Scotland is a million miles from being a reflection of the populations attitude towards the Scottish government or its views on independence because its so bloody self evident that it is, with it being massively unbalanced in its reporting of the Scottish government and its attitude towards Scottish independence.

It is absolutely the job of a free press to call to account the people in charge, to help ensure they do not abuse their power and to inform the public when they find examples of bad decision making, abuse of political position or downright dishonesty. The press in this country do not do that, most if not all of the papers mentioned above work day and night to put a bad spin on anything the SNP lead government do or have done over the last 10 years and if they cant find anything they more often than not make it up.

That is an absolute fact, not a political point of view and its something the press in this country should be utterly ashamed of …. though considering they are bye and large run from London and their editorial policy is influenced if not directly set by multi millionaire right wing owners and publishers I highly doubt they could give a toss.

What made-up facts have the Scottish press come up with about the Scottish government? If their job, as you say, is to call to account the people in charge then surely the Scottish government ARE the people in charge? Or are you suggesting that the Scottish government never actually get anything wrong?

As for the papers you list, given that the Herald group actually publish the National and that until its recent demise the Sunday Herald was strongly supportive of the SNP I'd suggest they're far from anti-independence. The Scotsman these days is cobbled together by such a skeleton staff that they're probably just glad to get a paper out without bothering much about whether they're perceived as pro or anti independence.

Scotty Leither
20-11-2018, 02:19 PM
The Scotsman these days is cobbled together by such a skeleton staff that they're probably just glad to get a paper out without bothering much about whether they're perceived as pro or anti independence.

They're pretty much "anti" independence today though, with their screaming headline that "60% of Scots would vote 'remain' in new indyref".

Which is a direct lift from a poll garnered from a deliberately skewed question by...Scotland in Union.

Them's the FACTS, right enough, Johnston Press-style.

Tynie01011973
20-11-2018, 02:57 PM
They're pretty much "anti" independence today though, with their screaming headline that "60% of Scots would vote 'remain' in new indyref".

Which is a direct lift from a poll garnered from a deliberately skewed question by...Scotland in Union.

Them's the FACTS, right enough, Johnston Press-style.

What is a deliberately skewered about the question posed in the poll?

Would you vote for Scottish independence in a second referendum?

NAE NOOKIE
20-11-2018, 02:59 PM
What made-up facts have the Scottish press come up with about the Scottish government? If their job, as you say, is to call to account the people in charge then surely the Scottish government ARE the people in charge? Or are you suggesting that the Scottish government never actually get anything wrong?

As for the papers you list, given that the Herald group actually publish the National and that until its recent demise the Sunday Herald was strongly supportive of the SNP I'd suggest they're far from anti-independence. The Scotsman these days is cobbled together by such a skeleton staff that they're probably just glad to get a paper out without bothering much about whether they're perceived as pro or anti independence.

I have never suggested that the Scottish government never get stuff wrong, in fact there are a number of things they do and have done that I disagree with, SNP supporter or not, there is no such thing as a perfect government.

As for made up stuff, I honestly cant be arsed to go looking for specific examples, but as a generalisation nobody but nobody can seriously argue with a straight face against the fact that the overwhelming stance of the press in this country is to absolutely look for every negative they can get their hands on with which to bash the Government and the independence movement in general. This is not based on a moral stance to bring politicians to account, this is based on an overwhelming desire to push the political agenda of the papers publishers which is to discredit the SNP and independence movement at every turn and preserve the status quo in this country.

If you want a specific example of that look no further than the Queensferry crossing. In any other country the fact that such a massive project was delivered nearly on time and on budget would have been lauded even if it was through gritted teeth. But not in Scotland, the press criticised a delay in finishing the bridge caused by atrocious weather conditions where working would have put lives at risk, trying to paint it as government incompetence. They criticised the government for not using Scottish steel in the construction, repeating criticism from Labour and Tory politicians, and totally ignoring the fact that there wasn't a single steel producer in Scotland capable of supplying the type of steel construction of the bridge required.

And who can forget the frenzy they got themselves into over that nurse who launched into Nicola Sturgeon on Question time about the disgrace of nurses being 'forced' to use food banks.
They reported that with undisguised delight, when the real question had to be, how the hell can somebody earning way more than what most ordinary people earn in this country be complaining about their pay and saying it takes them to food bank poverty levels? … I defy you to find one single paper who raised that blatantly obvious question. After 36 years in the civil service I still hadn't reached the starting salary for a newly qualified nurse in this country, but I wouldn't have had the brass neck to complain about my pay when I knew fully well that a lot of full time workers earned a hell of a lot less.

When I posted about this on Facebook by the way two people I know, one a qualified and working nurse and one who had been a nurse fully agreed with me.

Since the 2014 referendum there has been no criticism that you would notice of the broken promises … the fact that the Clyde didn't get all of the work that was promised and the absolute irony that the threat they used to frighten EU nationals into voting no has been turned on its head and that no vote has lead them into a situation where they will definitely no longer be living in an EU member country and that that situation was caused by a signatory of the so called 'vow' …………… In a country with a balanced and fair press the people responsible for that state of affairs would have been burned at the stake in print, and yet in the Scottish press there is barely a puff of smoke, especially on the back of the fact that Scotland overwhelmingly voted against 'brexit'

In this Sunday's edition of the Mail on Sunday a whole page is given over to the odious David Mundell to rail against Nicola Sturgeon …. The same guy who said that an EU exit deal like the one just delivered by Theresa May would be a red line for him and lead to his resignation, the same red line by the way which was cited by that darling of the Tory press Ruth Davidson …….. where is the criticism of them for not having the courage of their convictions and resigning over the issue as both had indicated they would?

So much for taking politicians to account, because it isn't just their job to hold government politicians to account, but all politicians surely … no in Scotland it would appear.

I could go on and on and on …… Under this constant relentless bombardment where the opposition is never put under the microscope, for example by asking Ruth Davidson to defend her party's UK policies which are hated by the majority of Scots, its an absolute miracle that the SNP's support has held up the way it has.

The unfair and unbalanced attitude of the press in this country is in my opinion indefensible. I'm aware the National is published by the same group who publish the Herald by the way, its interesting that the papers independence sympathetic Sunday version was binned at the same time … it wouldn't do to have more than one paper helping to redress the massive imbalance I suppose.

Scotty Leither
20-11-2018, 04:37 PM
What is a deliberately skewered about the question posed in the poll?

Would you vote for Scottish independence in a second referendum?

I think we're at cross-purposes here...it's not their online poll i'm referring to (although that was apparently running at 80% pro-independence earlier in the day much to the chagrin of the BTL banshees), it was the data extrapolated from the convoluted question asked by Scotland in Union - that august organisation supported by Archie MacPherson amongst others, and bankrolled by various Viscounts, Earls and Colonels which the Scotsman editors presumably thought justified their outlandish claims re voting intentions.

That was the motivation for calling it "skewed".

For the record though, I do feel sorry for the staff but it seems the editors of the Hootsman do have their fingers firmly stuck in their ears, hence sympathy for the title itself being in fairly short supply.

Scotty Leither
20-11-2018, 04:46 PM
Edit: The onine poll is now running at 81% pro-indy.

I've just voted on it myself. :wink:

JimBHibees
20-11-2018, 04:59 PM
I have never suggested that the Scottish government never get stuff wrong, in fact there are a number of things they do and have done that I disagree with, SNP supporter or not, there is no such thing as a perfect government.

As for made up stuff, I honestly cant be arsed to go looking for specific examples, but as a generalisation nobody but nobody can seriously argue with a straight face against the fact that the overwhelming stance of the press in this country is to absolutely look for every negative they can get their hands on with which to bash the Government and the independence movement in general. This is not based on a moral stance to bring politicians to account, this is based on an overwhelming desire to push the political agenda of the papers publishers which is to discredit the SNP and independence movement at every turn and preserve the status quo in this country.

If you want a specific example of that look no further than the Queensferry crossing. In any other country the fact that such a massive project was delivered nearly on time and on budget would have been lauded even if it was through gritted teeth. But not in Scotland, the press criticised a delay in finishing the bridge caused by atrocious weather conditions where working would have put lives at risk, trying to paint it as government incompetence. They criticised the government for not using Scottish steel in the construction, repeating criticism from Labour and Tory politicians, and totally ignoring the fact that there wasn't a single steel producer in Scotland capable of supplying the type of steel construction of the bridge required.

And who can forget the frenzy they got themselves into over that nurse who launched into Nicola Sturgeon on Question time about the disgrace of nurses being 'forced' to use food banks.
They reported that with undisguised delight, when the real question had to be, how the hell can somebody earning way more than what most ordinary people earn in this country be complaining about their pay and saying it takes them to food bank poverty levels? … I defy you to find one single paper who raised that blatantly obvious question. After 36 years in the civil service I still hadn't reached the starting salary for a newly qualified nurse in this country, but I wouldn't have had the brass neck to complain about my pay when I knew fully well that a lot of full time workers earned a hell of a lot less.

When I posted about this on Facebook by the way two people I know, one a qualified and working nurse and one who had been a nurse fully agreed with me.

Since the 2014 referendum there has been no criticism that you would notice of the broken promises … the fact that the Clyde didn't get all of the work that was promised and the absolute irony that the threat they used to frighten EU nationals into voting no has been turned on its head and that no vote has lead them into a situation where they will definitely no longer be living in an EU member country and that that situation was caused by a signatory of the so called 'vow' …………… In a country with a balanced and fair press the people responsible for that state of affairs would have been burned at the stake in print, and yet in the Scottish press there is barely a puff of smoke, especially on the back of the fact that Scotland overwhelmingly voted against 'brexit'

In this Sunday's edition of the Mail on Sunday a whole page is given over to the odious David Mundell to rail against Nicola Sturgeon …. The same guy who said that an EU exit deal like the one just delivered by Theresa May would be a red line for him and lead to his resignation, the same red line by the way which was cited by that darling of the Tory press Ruth Davidson …….. where is the criticism of them for not having the courage of their convictions and resigning over the issue as both had indicated they would?

So much for taking politicians to account, because it isn't just their job to hold government politicians to account, but all politicians surely … no in Scotland it would appear.

I could go on and on and on …… Under this constant relentless bombardment where the opposition is never put under the microscope, for example by asking Ruth Davidson to defend her party's UK policies which are hated by the majority of Scots, its an absolute miracle that the SNP's support has held up the way it has.

The unfair and unbalanced attitude of the press in this country is in my opinion indefensible. I'm aware the National is published by the same group who publish the Herald by the way, its interesting that the papers independence sympathetic Sunday version was binned at the same time … it wouldn't do to have more than one paper helping to redress the massive imbalance I suppose.

Totally agree with that.

speedy_gonzales
20-11-2018, 06:23 PM
If you want a specific example of that look no further than the Queensferry crossing. In any other country the fact that such a massive project was delivered nearly on time and on budget would have been lauded even if it was through gritted teeth. But not in Scotland, the press criticised a delay in finishing the bridge caused by atrocious weather conditions where working would have put lives at risk, trying to paint it as government incompetence.

Perhaps not the best example, even though the bridge had an official opening, it's still not finished. Plenty work going on but it doesn't affect the carriageway (most nights) so nobody is really bothered except for the pedants in this parish 😉

Keith_M
20-11-2018, 06:30 PM
I just wanted to clarify, as there has been some discussion about it...

While I'm not keen on the Scotsman, I do have sympathy for anybody that would lose their jobs or pensions if it's in trouble. I had the same sympathy for people that lost their jobs when Rangers went bust. I even had sympathy for the Debenture Holders that were ripped off.

WhileTheChief..
20-11-2018, 07:08 PM
Totally agree with that.

I totally disagree with it.

Hibs.net, fair and balanced :greengrin

G B Young
20-11-2018, 07:10 PM
I have never suggested that the Scottish government never get stuff wrong, in fact there are a number of things they do and have done that I disagree with, SNP supporter or not, there is no such thing as a perfect government.

As for made up stuff, I honestly cant be arsed to go looking for specific examples, but as a generalisation nobody but nobody can seriously argue with a straight face against the fact that the overwhelming stance of the press in this country is to absolutely look for every negative they can get their hands on with which to bash the Government and the independence movement in general. This is not based on a moral stance to bring politicians to account, this is based on an overwhelming desire to push the political agenda of the papers publishers which is to discredit the SNP and independence movement at every turn and preserve the status quo in this country.

If you want a specific example of that look no further than the Queensferry crossing. In any other country the fact that such a massive project was delivered nearly on time and on budget would have been lauded even if it was through gritted teeth. But not in Scotland, the press criticised a delay in finishing the bridge caused by atrocious weather conditions where working would have put lives at risk, trying to paint it as government incompetence. They criticised the government for not using Scottish steel in the construction, repeating criticism from Labour and Tory politicians, and totally ignoring the fact that there wasn't a single steel producer in Scotland capable of supplying the type of steel construction of the bridge required.

And who can forget the frenzy they got themselves into over that nurse who launched into Nicola Sturgeon on Question time about the disgrace of nurses being 'forced' to use food banks.
They reported that with undisguised delight, when the real question had to be, how the hell can somebody earning way more than what most ordinary people earn in this country be complaining about their pay and saying it takes them to food bank poverty levels? … I defy you to find one single paper who raised that blatantly obvious question. After 36 years in the civil service I still hadn't reached the starting salary for a newly qualified nurse in this country, but I wouldn't have had the brass neck to complain about my pay when I knew fully well that a lot of full time workers earned a hell of a lot less.

When I posted about this on Facebook by the way two people I know, one a qualified and working nurse and one who had been a nurse fully agreed with me.

Since the 2014 referendum there has been no criticism that you would notice of the broken promises … the fact that the Clyde didn't get all of the work that was promised and the absolute irony that the threat they used to frighten EU nationals into voting no has been turned on its head and that no vote has lead them into a situation where they will definitely no longer be living in an EU member country and that that situation was caused by a signatory of the so called 'vow' …………… In a country with a balanced and fair press the people responsible for that state of affairs would have been burned at the stake in print, and yet in the Scottish press there is barely a puff of smoke, especially on the back of the fact that Scotland overwhelmingly voted against 'brexit'

In this Sunday's edition of the Mail on Sunday a whole page is given over to the odious David Mundell to rail against Nicola Sturgeon …. The same guy who said that an EU exit deal like the one just delivered by Theresa May would be a red line for him and lead to his resignation, the same red line by the way which was cited by that darling of the Tory press Ruth Davidson …….. where is the criticism of them for not having the courage of their convictions and resigning over the issue as both had indicated they would?

So much for taking politicians to account, because it isn't just their job to hold government politicians to account, but all politicians surely … no in Scotland it would appear.

I could go on and on and on …… Under this constant relentless bombardment where the opposition is never put under the microscope, for example by asking Ruth Davidson to defend her party's UK policies which are hated by the majority of Scots, its an absolute miracle that the SNP's support has held up the way it has.

The unfair and unbalanced attitude of the press in this country is in my opinion indefensible. I'm aware the National is published by the same group who publish the Herald by the way, its interesting that the papers independence sympathetic Sunday version was binned at the same time … it wouldn't do to have more than one paper helping to redress the massive imbalance I suppose.

Sunday Herald went under because its always modest circulation had slumped to unsustainable levels. Nothing to do with whether or not it backed independence. It was a paper I used to really like when it first launched. It was a vibrant publication, reflective of its youthful staff and established its own identity. By the end, however, it was pretty much reduced to reprinting stories from Saturday's Herald due to the fact that the staff on the Herald, Evening Times and Sunday Herald had (like the Scotsman, Evening News and Scotland on Sunday) been amalgamated to cut costs. The whole place is run on a shoestring and that was reflected in the sorry Sunday offering they were putting out. Basically not worth buying.

I'm still not convinced about your claim that papers are renowned for 'making up' stories. Granted the tabloids are renowned for sensationalising stories for the sake of a good headline, while the News of the World broke the law in sourcing its stories (and duly paid the price), but unless you buy into the Trump mantra that all news you don't agree with is 'fake' then I'd be very surprised if any of the papers you list have published stories which have zero basis in fact. The problem these days, as I see it, is that with so many people shaping their news agenda around social media it's very easy to gravitate only towards news that tallies with your own viewpoint. This kind of tribalism strips away any sense of objectivity and instead of reasoned debate, things are viewed in a very black and white way (ie right or wrong).

My gripe with Scottish papers is simply that they're not very good and carry a very thin content. I do still enjoy reading papers though, and will as happily read through the Guardian as the Telegraph at a weekend. Their political leanings are clear, but there's much good journalism within their pages and I think it's healthy to read things from different perspectives. However, if a paper's perceived political standpoint is something you can't abide then the solution is simple. Just don't buy it. Fewer and fewer people do these days.

Smartie
21-11-2018, 08:58 AM
The Independence referendum WAS damaging for the written press in Scotland. Editors were faced with a choice - which half of your readership do you alienate? At a time when they were on the decline anyway, this put a lot of publications (who normally prefer to take a side rather than remain neutral) under added pressure.

A relative of mine was editor of a Scottish paper at that time, and some of his stories about what happened in the weeks and months leading up to the referendum are very interesting indeed.

The entire industry has been on a sticky wicket since they placed the value of their product in the physical pieces of paper they sold, rather than in the intellectual property. Once they'd gone down the route of giving away news for free, it was going to be a struggle to make money from then on.

I'm only surprised so many papers have lasted as long as they have. It is a shame, I grew up reading the Scotsman cover to cover every day and believe I gained a lot from it, but haven't bought a copy for a couple of decades. And it is funny how it can influence people's views on Independence - my mum and dad still get a copy delivered every day, and my mum is as anti-independence as they come, mainly due (imo) to the tone of what she chooses to read every day.

Scotty Leither
21-11-2018, 06:10 PM
A relative of mine was editor of a Scottish paper at that time, and some of his stories about what happened in the weeks and months leading up to the referendum are very interesting indeed

Care to share even an outline of some of these stories, Smartie?

The Tubs
21-11-2018, 06:38 PM
I didn’t know that: tories complaining about a lack of Scottish produced steel. The irony.

Smartie
21-11-2018, 06:45 PM
Care to share even an outline of some of these stories, Smartie?

I'd love to, but I think he's planning on writing a book one day, so I won't steal his thunder by doing so.

Hi Heid Yin
21-11-2018, 09:35 PM
I have never suggested that the Scottish government never get stuff wrong, in fact there are a number of things they do and have done that I disagree with, SNP supporter or not, there is no such thing as a perfect government.

As for made up stuff, I honestly cant be arsed to go looking for specific examples, but as a generalisation nobody but nobody can seriously argue with a straight face against the fact that the overwhelming stance of the press in this country is to absolutely look for every negative they can get their hands on with which to bash the Government and the independence movement in general. This is not based on a moral stance to bring politicians to account, this is based on an overwhelming desire to push the political agenda of the papers publishers which is to discredit the SNP and independence movement at every turn and preserve the status quo in this country.

If you want a specific example of that look no further than the Queensferry crossing. In any other country the fact that such a massive project was delivered nearly on time and on budget would have been lauded even if it was through gritted teeth. But not in Scotland, the press criticised a delay in finishing the bridge caused by atrocious weather conditions where working would have put lives at risk, trying to paint it as government incompetence. They criticised the government for not using Scottish steel in the construction, repeating criticism from Labour and Tory politicians, and totally ignoring the fact that there wasn't a single steel producer in Scotland capable of supplying the type of steel construction of the bridge required.

And who can forget the frenzy they got themselves into over that nurse who launched into Nicola Sturgeon on Question time about the disgrace of nurses being 'forced' to use food banks.
They reported that with undisguised delight, when the real question had to be, how the hell can somebody earning way more than what most ordinary people earn in this country be complaining about their pay and saying it takes them to food bank poverty levels? … I defy you to find one single paper who raised that blatantly obvious question. After 36 years in the civil service I still hadn't reached the starting salary for a newly qualified nurse in this country, but I wouldn't have had the brass neck to complain about my pay when I knew fully well that a lot of full time workers earned a hell of a lot less.

When I posted about this on Facebook by the way two people I know, one a qualified and working nurse and one who had been a nurse fully agreed with me.

Since the 2014 referendum there has been no criticism that you would notice of the broken promises … the fact that the Clyde didn't get all of the work that was promised and the absolute irony that the threat they used to frighten EU nationals into voting no has been turned on its head and that no vote has lead them into a situation where they will definitely no longer be living in an EU member country and that that situation was caused by a signatory of the so called 'vow' …………… In a country with a balanced and fair press the people responsible for that state of affairs would have been burned at the stake in print, and yet in the Scottish press there is barely a puff of smoke, especially on the back of the fact that Scotland overwhelmingly voted against 'brexit'

In this Sunday's edition of the Mail on Sunday a whole page is given over to the odious David Mundell to rail against Nicola Sturgeon …. The same guy who said that an EU exit deal like the one just delivered by Theresa May would be a red line for him and lead to his resignation, the same red line by the way which was cited by that darling of the Tory press Ruth Davidson …….. where is the criticism of them for not having the courage of their convictions and resigning over the issue as both had indicated they would?

So much for taking politicians to account, because it isn't just their job to hold government politicians to account, but all politicians surely … no in Scotland it would appear.

I could go on and on and on …… Under this constant relentless bombardment where the opposition is never put under the microscope, for example by asking Ruth Davidson to defend her party's UK policies which are hated by the majority of Scots, its an absolute miracle that the SNP's support has held up the way it has.

The unfair and unbalanced attitude of the press in this country is in my opinion indefensible. I'm aware the National is published by the same group who publish the Herald by the way, its interesting that the papers independence sympathetic Sunday version was binned at the same time … it wouldn't do to have more than one paper helping to redress the massive imbalance I suppose.

:top marks

Iggy Pope
21-11-2018, 09:45 PM
I didn’t know that: tories complaining about a lack of Scottish produced steel. The irony.

Scottish Nationalists complaining about Toryism perhaps more ironic indeed.

cabbageandribs1875
21-11-2018, 09:57 PM
I have never suggested that the Scottish government never get stuff wrong, in fact there are a number of things they do and have done that I disagree with, SNP supporter or not, there is no such thing as a perfect government.

As for made up stuff, I honestly cant be arsed to go looking for specific examples, but as a generalisation nobody but nobody can seriously argue with a straight face against the fact that the overwhelming stance of the press in this country is to absolutely look for every negative they can get their hands on with which to bash the Government and the independence movement in general. This is not based on a moral stance to bring politicians to account, this is based on an overwhelming desire to push the political agenda of the papers publishers which is to discredit the SNP and independence movement at every turn and preserve the status quo in this country.

If you want a specific example of that look no further than the Queensferry crossing. In any other country the fact that such a massive project was delivered nearly on time and on budget would have been lauded even if it was through gritted teeth. But not in Scotland, the press criticised a delay in finishing the bridge caused by atrocious weather conditions where working would have put lives at risk, trying to paint it as government incompetence. They criticised the government for not using Scottish steel in the construction, repeating criticism from Labour and Tory politicians, and totally ignoring the fact that there wasn't a single steel producer in Scotland capable of supplying the type of steel construction of the bridge required.

And who can forget the frenzy they got themselves into over that nurse who launched into Nicola Sturgeon on Question time about the disgrace of nurses being 'forced' to use food banks.
They reported that with undisguised delight, when the real question had to be, how the hell can somebody earning way more than what most ordinary people earn in this country be complaining about their pay and saying it takes them to food bank poverty levels? … I defy you to find one single paper who raised that blatantly obvious question. After 36 years in the civil service I still hadn't reached the starting salary for a newly qualified nurse in this country, but I wouldn't have had the brass neck to complain about my pay when I knew fully well that a lot of full time workers earned a hell of a lot less.

When I posted about this on Facebook by the way two people I know, one a qualified and working nurse and one who had been a nurse fully agreed with me.

Since the 2014 referendum there has been no criticism that you would notice of the broken promises … the fact that the Clyde didn't get all of the work that was promised and the absolute irony that the threat they used to frighten EU nationals into voting no has been turned on its head and that no vote has lead them into a situation where they will definitely no longer be living in an EU member country and that that situation was caused by a signatory of the so called 'vow' …………… In a country with a balanced and fair press the people responsible for that state of affairs would have been burned at the stake in print, and yet in the Scottish press there is barely a puff of smoke, especially on the back of the fact that Scotland overwhelmingly voted against 'brexit'

In this Sunday's edition of the Mail on Sunday a whole page is given over to the odious David Mundell to rail against Nicola Sturgeon …. The same guy who said that an EU exit deal like the one just delivered by Theresa May would be a red line for him and lead to his resignation, the same red line by the way which was cited by that darling of the Tory press Ruth Davidson …….. where is the criticism of them for not having the courage of their convictions and resigning over the issue as both had indicated they would?

So much for taking politicians to account, because it isn't just their job to hold government politicians to account, but all politicians surely … no in Scotland it would appear.

I could go on and on and on …… Under this constant relentless bombardment where the opposition is never put under the microscope, for example by asking Ruth Davidson to defend her party's UK policies which are hated by the majority of Scots, its an absolute miracle that the SNP's support has held up the way it has.

The unfair and unbalanced attitude of the press in this country is in my opinion indefensible. I'm aware the National is published by the same group who publish the Herald by the way, its interesting that the papers independence sympathetic Sunday version was binned at the same time … it wouldn't do to have more than one paper helping to redress the massive imbalance I suppose.


a very good read,well said, one of the best/most accurate posts i've read on these topics on here for some time :top marks

PatHead
21-11-2018, 10:18 PM
Scottish Nationalists complaining about Toryism perhaps more ironic indeed.

Eh, you trying to say SNP are closet stories?

Scotty Leither
21-11-2018, 10:19 PM
I'd love to, but I think he's planning on writing a book one day, so I won't steal his thunder by doing so.

Fair play, mate.

Iggy Pope
21-11-2018, 10:27 PM
Eh, you trying to say SNP are closet stories?

Maybe just tartan ones? Ssssssshhhh

NAE NOOKIE
22-11-2018, 12:04 AM
Sunday Herald went under because its always modest circulation had slumped to unsustainable levels. Nothing to do with whether or not it backed independence. It was a paper I used to really like when it first launched. It was a vibrant publication, reflective of its youthful staff and established its own identity. By the end, however, it was pretty much reduced to reprinting stories from Saturday's Herald due to the fact that the staff on the Herald, Evening Times and Sunday Herald had (like the Scotsman, Evening News and Scotland on Sunday) been amalgamated to cut costs. The whole place is run on a shoestring and that was reflected in the sorry Sunday offering they were putting out. Basically not worth buying.

I'm still not convinced about your claim that papers are renowned for 'making up' stories. Granted the tabloids are renowned for sensationalising stories for the sake of a good headline, while the News of the World broke the law in sourcing its stories (and duly paid the price), but unless you buy into the Trump mantra that all news you don't agree with is 'fake' then I'd be very surprised if any of the papers you list have published stories which have zero basis in fact. The problem these days, as I see it, is that with so many people shaping their news agenda around social media it's very easy to gravitate only towards news that tallies with your own viewpoint. This kind of tribalism strips away any sense of objectivity and instead of reasoned debate, things are viewed in a very black and white way (ie right or wrong).

My gripe with Scottish papers is simply that they're not very good and carry a very thin content. I do still enjoy reading papers though, and will as happily read through the Guardian as the Telegraph at a weekend. Their political leanings are clear, but there's much good journalism within their pages and I think it's healthy to read things from different perspectives. However, if a paper's perceived political standpoint is something you can't abide then the solution is simple. Just don't buy it. Fewer and fewer people do these days.

As a matter of fact the only two papers we buy regularly are The Mail on Sunday ( very much my partners choice ) and The National …. I read both avidly because I'm not blinkered enough to just want to see my own point of view reinforced to the exclusion of everything else. But the MOS is just a joke with no saving graces whatsoever … it is nothing but a propaganda sheet masquerading as a newspaper. I understand that all newspapers have a political stance and I have done since I was in my 20s … but the MOS goes way beyond that … if the SNP found a way to make **** into gold the headline would be 'Fury as shameless SNP use Chinese **** to make Scotland the richest country in the world'

Most of the other papers are no better.