is it time for a flag debate?

[AgentDaleCooper]

seriously. IMO, all of this needs to stop. i saw some gimp selling easter lilly badges on a hibs FB page recently FFS. The fact is, the tricolor didn't even exist what we were founded, and it has no part in our present. if we want to tell everyone else to start behaving, we need to get our house in order first.

[Sir David Gray]

To be honest after last night, I think flags are the least of our worries.

Although I can't be bothered with the numpties who dust off their Irish tricolours for 8 games a season whenever we play Hearts and Rangers and you never see them at any other match.

If they were truly wanting to celebrate the club's heritage, they would be doing so in a much more respectful manner and not using a national flag in such an antagonistic way.

[1van Sprou7e]

:rolleyes:

[green&left]

seriously. IMO, all of this needs to stop. i saw some gimp selling easter lilly badges on a hibs FB page recently FFS. The fact is, the tricolor didn't even exist what we were founded, and it has no part in our present. if we want to tell everyone else to start behaving, we need to get our house in order first.

Absolutely. Those Easter Lily pin badges the size of a 1p piece undoubtedly the cause of last night's unsavoury scenes. Petrie!!!! :grr::grr:

There hasn't half been some pish on here the last 24hrs.

[Vini1875]

Bollocks. Why do you think you have the right to tell anyone what flag or badge they should fly or wear? Tri-colours and Easter Lillies are fine by me. Because we support Hibs I suppose we should all have the same idea of what that means. Broad church.

[Smartie]

The short answer to the question is no.

I've never understood how people have managed to get so wound up by flags, whether it's burning them, the choice of which one gets hung from the town hall or whatever.

If you're enraged by a saltire, a union flag, a tricolour or whatever, you are the one with the problem.

I've never even heard of an Easter Lily. What is it?

We should be (and are) having a decent debate about how we stop people acting like dicks at derbies. That does not include a flag debate.

[LancashireHibby]

If it was a means of supporting the club’s history then such symbols would be at the games every week. Not some spotty 15 year old waving a tricolour about to get the attention of his pal from school waving a Union Jack in the Hearts end.

[JeMeSouviens]

seriously. IMO, all of this needs to stop. i saw some gimp selling easter lilly badges on a hibs FB page recently FFS. The fact is, the tricolor didn't even exist what we were founded, and it has no part in our present. if we want to tell everyone else to start behaving, we need to get our house in order first.

The Irish tricolour predates Hibs by decades.

[AgentDaleCooper]

The short answer to the question is no.

I've never understood how people have managed to get so wound up by flags, whether it's burning them, the choice of which one gets hung from the town hall or whatever.

If you're enraged by a saltire, a union flag, a tricolour or whatever, you are the one with the problem.

I've never even heard of an Easter Lily. What is it?

We should be (and are) having a decent debate about how we stop people acting like dicks at derbies. That does not include a flag debate.

do you think historical sectarianism, and the subsequent identification of thugs who will use anything as an excuse to act like an arse, has nothing to do with flags? as far as i can make it, it's literally the most visible reminder of all this stuff.

or do you think that sectarianism isn't an undercurrent factor in people acting like dicks at derbies?

[JeMeSouviens]

The short answer to the question is no.

I've never understood how people have managed to get so wound up by flags, whether it's burning them, the choice of which one gets hung from the town hall or whatever.

If you're enraged by a saltire, a union flag, a tricolour or whatever, you are the one with the problem.

I've never even heard of an Easter Lily. What is it?

We should be (and are) having a decent debate about how we stop people acting like dicks at derbies. That does not include a flag debate.

Easter lily badges are the Irish republican equivalent of poppies. Worn at easter because of the 1916 easter rising.

[Hibrandenburg]

seriously. IMO, all of this needs to stop. i saw some gimp selling easter lilly badges on a hibs FB page recently FFS. The fact is, the tricolor didn't even exist what we were founded, and it has no part in our present. if we want to tell everyone else to start behaving, we need to get our house in order first.

I've no problems with flags, it's the ****s that wave them that grip my ****.

[AgentDaleCooper]

If it was a means of supporting the club’s history then such symbols would be at the games every week. Not some spotty 15 year old waving a tricolour about to get the attention of his pal from school waving a Union Jack in the Hearts end.

...exactly.

i don't care about the tricolor myself, i care about how it is used. when i was a wee moron 12 years ago i bought an erin gu bragh flag for this exact reason, thought i was a right proper legend and that. i bought it precisely to annoy rangers fans, which it did, and tbh i don't know how i didn't get battered on one occasion.

[AgentDaleCooper]

I've no problems with flags, it's the ****s that wave them that grip my ****.

:top marks

[Pete]

I wouldn’t say so.

[Smartie]

do you think historical sectarianism, and the subsequent identification of thugs who will use anything as an excuse to act like an arse, has nothing to do with flags? as far as i can make it, it's literally the most visible reminder of all this stuff.

or do you think that sectarianism isn't an undercurrent factor in people acting like dicks at derbies?

No, I don't think sectarianism is an undercurrent in people acting like dicks at derbies. Hearts have a small element, and one or two naughty songs that are aired from time to time, and the stuff targeted at our manager is dreadful. I don't think Hibs have a sectarianism problem in the least. Dicks waving flags to wind each other up is not sectarianism. I do not accept that Hibs have a problem with sectarianism, even if we have picked up a dreadful little ditty (which needs banished asap) that might suggest we do.

Flags are whatever you want them to be. It is unhealthy to attach significance to them.

[JimBHibees]

If it was a means of supporting the club’s history then such symbols would be at the games every week. Not some spotty 15 year old waving a tricolour about to get the attention of his pal from school waving a Union Jack in the Hearts end.

Absolutely nail on the head.

[The Harp]

Is it time for another flag debate? NO!!!
The ones we've had in the past achieved absolutely nothing.

[1van Sprou7e]

If it was a means of supporting the club’s history then such symbols would be at the games every week. Not some spotty 15 year old waving a tricolour about to get the attention of his pal from school waving a Union Jack in the Hearts end.

We don't have many displays at all week in week out, we tend to save these things for the big games

It's not unique to flags

[TelaStella]

Those of you moaning about how the tri colours only come out for the hun games would most definitely be the first ones to go ballistic if they suddenly appeared against the likes of the sheep or motherwell and probably end up telling the culprit to save it for Tynie/Ibrox...

We as a club are very fortunate to have such a strong and historic identity and if people wish to express it by flying a tri colour, Ulster banner or a saltire then that is absolutely fine by me. Let’s not pretend we are some sort of desperate mob trying to latch onto something for the sake of it like that shower in Gorgie, carrying banners of Lee Rigby and singing about the UVF hoping the real huns might take notice every now and again, we’re Hibernian.

Alba gu brath, Erin go bragh.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[NAE NOOKIE]

This is my take on it.

There is no doubt that the current trend in Edinburgh football is towards a return to the bad old days of the 70s. Part of that is the return to Easter Road of the tricolour and the Union flag to Tynecastle. I don't give an actual **** if we are entitled to fly the tricolour because of the clubs Irish roots or if the Yams are 'entitled' to fly the Union flag because it is after all the flag of Great Britain. The utter truth is that the use of both flags is helping to drive a sectarian element to our rivalry which I for one thought and hoped was long gone.

If anybody seriously thinks this is the problem of folk who are making too much of this because after all its only a flag then they are deluding themselves … if its not the solution its part of the problem and both flags being waved by the respective supports are part of the problem, whether folk are prepared to admit that or not.

There were too many tricolours in the Hibs end last night and I for one will be happy when they are long gone …. and if I'm being honest you can chuck the 'Erin go bragh' flags in the sodding bin along with them … we are not an Irish club, we are a Scottish one and unless you are Irish what the hell has an Ireland forever flag got to do with you anyway?

Lets stop kidding ourselves …. acknowledging the clubs roots is one thing, we do that in the clubs name, the clubs colours and by having the original Irish harp in our badge … nobody, including me, has any problem with that .. I firmly believe we should honour the original founders of our club and the struggle they had both against sectarianism and poverty. But waving Irish tricolours and Erin go bragh flags only helps to stoke a reaction from folk at certain other clubs who just love to keep the sectarian pot boiling … its not needed at the football and I want my club to be the one to put it to bed.

[HappyAsHellas]

This is my take on it.

There is no doubt that the current trend in Edinburgh football is towards a return to the bad old days of the 70s. Part of that is the return to Easter Road of the tricolour and the Union flag to Tynecastle. I don't give an actual **** if we are entitled to fly the tricolour because of the clubs Irish roots or if the Yams are 'entitled' to fly the Union flag because it is after all the flag of Great Britain. The utter truth is that the use of both flags is helping to drive a sectarian element to our rivalry which I for one thought and hoped was long gone.

If anybody seriously thinks this is the problem of folk who are making too much of this because after all its only a flag then they are deluding themselves … if its not the solution its part of the problem and both flags being waved by the respective supports are part of the problem, whether folk are prepared to admit that or not.

There were too many tricolours in the Hibs end last night and I for one will be happy when they are long gone …. and if I'm being honest you can chuck the 'Erin go bragh' flags in the sodding bin along with them … we are not an Irish club, we are a Scottish one and unless you are Irish what the hell has an Ireland forever flag got to do with you anyway?

Lets stop kidding ourselves …. acknowledging the clubs roots is one thing, we do that in the clubs name, the clubs colours and by having the original Irish harp in our badge … nobody, including me, has any problem with that .. I firmly believe we should honour the original founders of our club and the struggle they had both against sectarianism and poverty. But waving Irish tricolours and Erin go bragh flags only helps to stoke a reaction from folk at certain other clubs who just love to keep the sectarian pot boiling … its not needed at the football and I want my club to be the one to put it to bed.

Well said sir!

[1van Sprou7e]

This is my take on it.

There is no doubt that the current trend in Edinburgh football is towards a return to the bad old days of the 70s. Part of that is the return to Easter Road of the tricolour and the Union flag to Tynecastle. I don't give an actual **** if we are entitled to fly the tricolour because of the clubs Irish roots or if the Yams are 'entitled' to fly the Union flag because it is after all the flag of Great Britain. The utter truth is that the use of both flags is helping to drive a sectarian element to our rivalry which I for one thought and hoped was long gone.

If anybody seriously thinks this is the problem of folk who are making too much of this because after all its only a flag then they are deluding themselves … if its not the solution its part of the problem and both flags being waved by the respective supports are part of the problem, whether folk are prepared to admit that or not.

There were too many tricolours in the Hibs end last night and I for one will be happy when they are long gone …. and if I'm being honest you can chuck the 'Erin go bragh' flags in the sodding bin along with them … we are not an Irish club, we are a Scottish one and unless you are Irish what the hell has an Ireland forever flag got to do with you anyway?

Lets stop kidding ourselves …. acknowledging the clubs roots is one thing, we do that in the clubs name, the clubs colours and by having the original Irish harp in our badge … nobody, including me, has any problem with that .. I firmly believe we should honour the original founders of our club and the struggle they had both against sectarianism and poverty. But waving Irish tricolours and Erin go bragh flags only helps to stoke a reaction from folk at certain other clubs who just love to keep the sectarian pot boiling … its not needed at the football and I want my club to be the one to put it to bed.

"Erin go bragh" is the historic club motto....

[Bishop Hibee]

Our manager and one of our players are Irish but we have a problem with their national flag? Only in Scotland! I’ve no problem with virtually any kind of flag being taken in by fans and I include the green, white and black union flags even though I’m personally in favour of an independent Scotland.

[Lancs Harp]

A slightly different take. Im English and live in England, I constantly fight against the notion that Hibs are mini Celtic as so many people down here think/presume we are. To third parties in England and the large number of Rangers sympathisers down here, our tricolours just confirm their belief we are just diet celtic. I realise to a small minority of Hibs fans thats ok and actually reilsh being brothers in arms with celtic. To me thats a key issue of being a Hibs fan, a pretty Bohemian football club, totally inclusive, but we cover a wide range of beliefs and political stances. We have Irish roots we nearly all recognise that but we havent been an "irish club" for well over 100 years. We're a football club not a political institution, save that for the dynamic duo in Glasgow.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Our manager and one of our players are Irish but we have a problem with their national flag? Only in Scotland! I’ve no problem with virtually any kind of flag being taken in by fans and I include the green, white and black union flags even though I’m personally in favour of an independent Scotland.

i actually quite like the green white and black UJs, they look smart. it's clearly a hibs flag, any other connotation is completely secondary.

what about red whit and blue UJs and red hands at ibrox and tynecaste?

as has been said, this isn't about 'having a problem' with a national flag, it's about having a problem with how they are used by those that bring them to games.

they are used to stoke a fire.

[JeMeSouviens]

"Erin go bragh" is the historic club motto....

Exactly. Are Everton or Blackburn not allowed theirs unless they’re ancient Romans? :wink:

[My_Wife_Camille]

seriously. IMO, all of this needs to stop. i saw some gimp selling easter lilly badges on a hibs FB page recently FFS. The fact is, the tricolor didn't even exist what we were founded, and it has no part in our present. if we want to tell everyone else to start behaving, we need to get our house in order first.
Totally agree. I want to see Irish flags OUT of Easter Road and back at Celtic Park where they belong.

[Brizo]

Our manager and one of our players are Irish but we have a problem with their national flag? Only in Scotland! I’ve no problem with virtually any kind of flag being taken in by fans and I include the green, white and black union flags even though I’m personally in favour of an independent Scotland.

Well said.

Problems ive seen from our support have been from coked up wee ned wannabe cashies. Flags don't hurt anyone, its coins and bottles that hurt people. The issue that Hibs need to address is an element of our support that are more wannabe Green Street than wannabe Green Brigade and who think its acceptable to launch coins and other objects at opposing fans, players and officials.

[AgentDaleCooper]

"Erin go bragh" is the historic club motto....

:aok:

[AgentDaleCooper]

This is my take on it.

There is no doubt that the current trend in Edinburgh football is towards a return to the bad old days of the 70s. Part of that is the return to Easter Road of the tricolour and the Union flag to Tynecastle. I don't give an actual **** if we are entitled to fly the tricolour because of the clubs Irish roots or if the Yams are 'entitled' to fly the Union flag because it is after all the flag of Great Britain. The utter truth is that the use of both flags is helping to drive a sectarian element to our rivalry which I for one thought and hoped was long gone.

If anybody seriously thinks this is the problem of folk who are making too much of this because after all its only a flag then they are deluding themselves … if its not the solution its part of the problem and both flags being waved by the respective supports are part of the problem, whether folk are prepared to admit that or not.

There were too many tricolours in the Hibs end last night and I for one will be happy when they are long gone …. and if I'm being honest you can chuck the 'Erin go bragh' flags in the sodding bin along with them … we are not an Irish club, we are a Scottish one and unless you are Irish what the hell has an Ireland forever flag got to do with you anyway?

Lets stop kidding ourselves …. acknowledging the clubs roots is one thing, we do that in the clubs name, the clubs colours and by having the original Irish harp in our badge … nobody, including me, has any problem with that .. I firmly believe we should honour the original founders of our club and the struggle they had both against sectarianism and poverty. But waving Irish tricolours and Erin go bragh flags only helps to stoke a reaction from folk at certain other clubs who just love to keep the sectarian pot boiling … its not needed at the football and I want my club to be the one to put it to bed.
absolutely, very well said :top marks

[NAE NOOKIE]

"Erin go bragh" is the historic club motto....

I honestly don't care that it was mate. The vast majority of Hibs fans these days are about as Irish as Haggis and the ones that aren't Scottish are probably more likely to be English than Irish … our most famous and lauded fan of recent years was from Belize, God rest him.

If when Hibs reach their 150th anniversary the club release a commemorative strip with a Harp on it and 'Erin go bragh' written underneath I will probably buy it … that's a respectful and appropriate nod to the clubs original founders. But all other fans see when Hibs fans wave tricolours and Erin go bragh flags on the terraces now is a club who after 140 years are seemingly unprepared to acknowledge the country they should be supporting and representative of …. IE Scotland.

As I alluded to in my original post …. It may well be right in an ideal world to expect folk to be able to wave whatever symbols they want with no reaction and no consequences … but we don't live in an ideal world, and for so long as the tricolour or Erin go bragh flags are part of a sectarian problem and give fans of other clubs an excuse to react in kind with all of the accompanying bile and hatred that goes with it I would rather not see these things part of our modern fan culture.

[NYHibby]

Our manager and one of our players are Irish but we have a problem with their national flag? Only in Scotland! I’ve no problem with virtually any kind of flag being taken in by fans and I include the green, white and black union flags even though I’m personally in favour of an independent Scotland.

Well actually, our manager is from a country without a flag. How in the world does that justify bringing the flag of a different country?

[WhileTheChief..]

"Erin go bragh" is the historic club motto....

What does it mean?

[Johnny Clash]

I’ve got no problem with Hibs fans taking flags connected with our club to games . Irish national flags have been associated with our team since 1875. In fact the Irish national flag (Harp) used to fly above our stadium. So they are part of our club’s proud history - a good example being our St Patrick’s branch flag. What bothers me is moronic behaviour, singing brutal songs about widows and lobbing missiles into crowds.

[NYHibby]

No, I don't think sectarianism is an undercurrent in people acting like dicks at derbies. Hearts have a small element, and one or two naughty songs that are aired from time to time, and the stuff targeted at our manager is dreadful. I don't think Hibs have a sectarianism problem in the least. Dicks waving flags to wind each other up is not sectarianism. I do not accept that Hibs have a problem with sectarianism, even if we have picked up a dreadful little ditty (which needs banished asap) that might suggest we do.

How is a “dick” waving a Republic of Ireland flag at someone else with the express intention of upsetting that person not overtly sectarian nevermind having a sectarian undercurrent? Clearly the “dick” doesn’t think the waving motion is the upsetting part. Otherwise we would have people waving random things at other people. Waving a Tesco bag is clearly different from waving a flag.

No, the “dick” thinks the upsetting nature of the act comes from what he is waving and the symbolic value of the item.

While I can understand if someone argues that our sectarian problem is in line with society wide sectarian problems and is not disproportionately worse, I struggle to see how anyone who regularly attends games or otherwise follows the club can honestly think that we do not have an sectarian element to our fan base. Hibs attracts people from across society and some of those people happen to be terrible people. It’s the law of large numbers

[NAE NOOKIE]

What does it mean?

Ireland forever … you clearly haven't been reading my posts you naughty boy :slipper:

[IberianHibernian]

seriously. IMO, all of this needs to stop. i saw some gimp selling easter lilly badges on a hibs FB page recently FFS. The fact is, the tricolor didn't even exist what we were founded, and it has no part in our present. if we want to tell everyone else to start behaving, we need to get our house in order first.Why ask ? You clearly think there should be a debate with your opinion right before the debate takes place . Not sure how long you`ve been on hibs.net but I remember " flag debates " from earlier years and have avoided them since since they only serve to divide support and give a platform to fans who are ashamed of our club`s Irish roots ( am aware many are not interested in Irish roots or don`t give them impoortance but most are tolerant of other Hibernian fans who do give importance to our roots ) .

[HibeeHibernian4]

seriously. IMO, all of this needs to stop. i saw some gimp selling easter lilly badges on a hibs FB page recently FFS. The fact is, the tricolor didn't even exist what we were founded, and it has no part in our present. if we want to tell everyone else to start behaving, we need to get our house in order first.

And what, exactly, is wrong with the Easter Lily?

I have an Erin go Bragh flag that I take to some games, but I find myself less likely to take it to Tynecastle or Ibrox, for fear of being labelled as some sort of antagonistic sectarian goader. I do have my flag at every European game, although whether that's just a ruse to wind up the huns in the Asteras Tripolis end is anybody's guess.

It is our motto, it is our heritage, Erin go Bragh flags and tricolours are absolutely acceptable and anyone who has a problem with that can do one quite frankly. Hibernia = Ireland, whether you choose to accept it or not. We are a Scottish club with Irish roots, and therefore have every right to be proud of that.

I don't like the green and black union flags myself, but I'm never going to tell people not to wave them, it's their choice and as long as it doesn't veer into the far right, fascistic nature of Rangers and Hearts' flags then I've got no problem with whatever people bring to games.

"What has Erin go Bragh got to do with Hibernian?" might be one of the daftest things I've ever read on here.

[California-Hibs]

Bollocks. Why do you think you have the right to tell anyone what flag or badge they should fly or wear? Tri-colours and Easter Lillies are fine by me. Because we support Hibs I suppose we should all have the same idea of what that means. Broad church.

This. If people want to wave a tricolor then more power to them. Its their choice and right and they're perfectly entitled to do so. Time frame is irrespective, it's a representation of Hibs history. Period.

[California-Hibs]

And what, exactly, is wrong with the Easter Lily?

I have an Erin go Bragh flag that I take to some games, but I find myself less likely to take it to Tynecastle or Ibrox, for fear of being labelled as some sort of antagonistic sectarian goader. I do have my flag at every European game, although whether that's just a ruse to wind up the huns in the Asteras Tripolis end is anybody's guess.

It is our motto, it is our heritage, Erin go Bragh flags and tricolours are absolutely acceptable and anyone who has a problem with that can do one quite frankly. Hibernia = Ireland, whether you choose to accept it or not. We are a Scottish club with Irish roots, and therefore have every right to be proud of that.

I don't like the green and black union flags myself, but I'm never going to tell people not to wave them, it's their choice and as long as it doesn't veer into the far right, fascistic nature of Rangers and Hearts' flags then I've got no problem with whatever people bring to games.

"What has Erin go Bragh got to do with Hibernian?" might be one of the daftest things I've ever read on here.

Spot on.

[NAE NOOKIE]

And what, exactly, is wrong with the Easter Lily?

I have an Erin go Bragh flag that I take to some games, but I find myself less likely to take it to Tynecastle or Ibrox, for fear of being labelled as some sort of antagonistic sectarian goader. I do have my flag at every European game, although whether that's just a ruse to wind up the huns in the Asteras Tripolis end is anybody's guess.

It is our motto, it is our heritage, Erin go Bragh flags and tricolours are absolutely acceptable and anyone who has a problem with that can do one quite frankly. Hibernia = Ireland, whether you choose to accept it or not. We are a Scottish club with Irish roots, and therefore have every right to be proud of that.

I don't like the green and black union flags myself, but I'm never going to tell people not to wave them, it's their choice and as long as it doesn't veer into the far right, fascistic nature of Rangers and Hearts' flags then I've got no problem with whatever people bring to games.

"What has Erin go Bragh got to do with Hibernian?" might be one of the daftest things I've ever read on here.

If that was aimed at me mate you had better check my posts again because that isn't what I said … If it was feel free to quote my post and highlight the bit you are talking about.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Why ask ? You clearly think there should be a debate with your opinion right before the debate takes place . Not sure how long you`ve been on hibs.net but I remember " flag debates " from earlier years and have avoided them since since they only serve to divide support and give a platform to fans who are ashamed of our club`s Irish roots ( am aware many are not interested in Irish roots or don`t give them impoortance but most are tolerant of other Hibernian fans who do give importance to our roots ) .

Who are these fans?… I've been following Hibs for over 40 years and have never met a fan who was 'ashamed of the clubs roots' …. I dare say there are plenty who don't attach much importance to them as you said, but I've yet to meet one who was ashamed of the clubs roots … why the hell would they be?

But for me there's a difference between being aware of the clubs roots, acknowledging them or respecting them and stuffing the stands at Easter Road with Irish related symbols making it look like the club and its supporters are stuck in some sort of time warp, where we have failed to move on from the 19th century and attach little or no importance to the fact that Hibs for all of our beginnings are a firmly established Scottish football club.

The club's founders were indeed Irish, but I'm not and neither are 90 odd percent of the clubs supporters so why on earth would I feel any compulsion to wave the flag of that country or a flag saying Ireland forever …. my allegiance is to Scotland, not Ireland.

That's not being disrespectful of Hibs roots or its founders. My maternal grandfather was Irish and two of my other grandparents were English, I'm not ashamed of that in the slightest, but that doesn't mean I feel ( or have ever felt ) any compulsion to support Ireland or England in any sporting event or wave the flag of either country, I'm a Scotsman first and last and the fact that I wouldn't exist if it wasn't for those grandparents doesn't make any difference to that, that does not mean I am disrespecting them …. Its the same with Hibs.

[JOD]

Jeez
The Irish tricolour (and there many more in Europe btw France/Italy spring to mind ) is a peaceful flag.It was originally meant to bring the south (green) and the north (orange) together
This green white and gold stuff is just nonsense.

[givescotlandfreedom]

I don't have a problem with Easter lilies or poppies. ********s are the issue.

[Dashing Bob S]

Sadly there are people in Scotland who believe - with justification - the easiest way to annoy fellow half wits is to fly a tricolor or a Union Jack. Thus they are sectarianisig themselves at worst, or at best their witless behavior is sustaining an irrelevant and idiotic cult which ought to have been put out to grass decades ago.

In this divided day and age, idiots overwhelmed by the complexity of the world will always try to understand it in hateful, reductive, simpleton terms and ‘radicalize’ themselves.

So I don’t think it’s EVER time for a flag debate.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

seriously. IMO, all of this needs to stop. i saw some gimp selling easter lilly badges on a hibs FB page recently FFS. The fact is, the tricolor didn't even exist what we were founded, and it has no part in our present. if we want to tell everyone else to start behaving, we need to get our house in order first.

Down with this sort of thing.

Careful now.

[CLASS OF 72 -73]

A slightly different take. Im English and live in England, I constantly fight against the notion that Hibs are mini Celtic as so many people down here think/presume we are. To third parties in England and the large number of Rangers sympathisers down here, our tricolours just confirm their belief we are just diet celtic. I realise to a small minority of Hibs fans thats ok and actually reilsh being brothers in arms with celtic. To me thats a key issue of being a Hibs fan, a pretty Bohemian football club, totally inclusive, but we cover a wide range of beliefs and political stances. We have Irish roots we nearly all recognise that but we havent been an "irish club" for well over 100 years. We're a football club not a political institution, save that for the dynamic duo in Glasgow.


I also live in England and most fans barely know who we are given the media coverage of the 'old firm' get or give a hoot.
Dynamic Duo? hardly a term for those two either.

[Brizo]

IIRC Tom Hart and Kenny Waugh had a no Tricolour policy back in the day. That didn't stop trouble vs the huns and hertz diet element. In fact those decades were the worst for trouble.

Our name and colours are sufficient to brand us "fenian bs" among those with that mindset.I know DUFC guys who say the huns still regard them as that and they did change their name and colours nearly 100 years ago !

The real issue is a ned element who is attaching itself to our club and a developing culture of missile throwing. A flag debate wont solve that. That will be solved by identifying and banning the culprits together with a tangible and pro-active police presence in stadiums.

[Ozyhibby]

This is my take on it.

There is no doubt that the current trend in Edinburgh football is towards a return to the bad old days of the 70s. Part of that is the return to Easter Road of the tricolour and the Union flag to Tynecastle. I don't give an actual **** if we are entitled to fly the tricolour because of the clubs Irish roots or if the Yams are 'entitled' to fly the Union flag because it is after all the flag of Great Britain. The utter truth is that the use of both flags is helping to drive a sectarian element to our rivalry which I for one thought and hoped was long gone.

If anybody seriously thinks this is the problem of folk who are making too much of this because after all its only a flag then they are deluding themselves … if its not the solution its part of the problem and both flags being waved by the respective supports are part of the problem, whether folk are prepared to admit that or not.

There were too many tricolours in the Hibs end last night and I for one will be happy when they are long gone …. and if I'm being honest you can chuck the 'Erin go bragh' flags in the sodding bin along with them … we are not an Irish club, we are a Scottish one and unless you are Irish what the hell has an Ireland forever flag got to do with you anyway?

Lets stop kidding ourselves …. acknowledging the clubs roots is one thing, we do that in the clubs name, the clubs colours and by having the original Irish harp in our badge … nobody, including me, has any problem with that .. I firmly believe we should honour the original founders of our club and the struggle they had both against sectarianism and poverty. But waving Irish tricolours and Erin go bragh flags only helps to stoke a reaction from folk at certain other clubs who just love to keep the sectarian pot boiling … its not needed at the football and I want my club to be the one to put it to bed.

Great post.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JimBHibees]

IIRC Tom Hart and Kenny Waugh had a no Tricolour policy back in the day. That didn't stop trouble vs the huns and hertz diet element. In fact those decades were the worst for trouble.

Our name and colours are sufficient to brand us "fenian bs" among those with that mindset.I know DUFC guys who say the huns still regard them as that and they did change their name and colours nearly 100 years ago !

The real issue is a ned element who is attaching itself to our club and a developing culture of missile throwing. A flag debate wont solve that. That will be solved by identifying and banning the culprits together with a tangible and pro-active police presence in stadiums.

Spot in they need punted and a stronger policy in dealing with it at games.

[Sir David Gray]

This. If people want to wave a tricolor then more power to them. Its their choice and right and they're perfectly entitled to do so. Time frame is irrespective, it's a representation of Hibs history. Period.

Of course they're entitled to do so and I would never suggest that flags be banned.

I would very much question if these flags are being waved as a representation of our history though. Why don't we see these flags at other games? How many Irish tricolours do you reckon we'll see tomorrow?

For anyone who genuinely cares about our history and in respecting the national flag of Ireland really shouldn't encourage others to be using it in such a way that they are just trying to provoke a reaction from rival fans. It's disrespectful to what the flag actually represents which is peace between two communities.

The same goes for the clowns in the Hearts end waving their Union flags about.

Give it a rest and leave that to the Glasgow lot.

[Lendo]

"Erin go bragh" is the historic club motto....

The key word there being 'historic'

Find the tri-colour flag waving all a bit cringe worthy. Purely done by wee bams trying to provoke a reaction. Personally, it's not for me, having no affiliation with Ireland and having never actually visited the place (which is likely the case for the majority of the flag wavers)

[JimBHibees]

Of course they're entitled to do so and I would never suggest that flags be banned.

I would very much question if these flags are being waved as a representation of our history though. Why don't we see these flags at other games? How many Irish tricolours do you reckon we'll see tomorrow?

For anyone who genuinely cares about our history and in respecting the national flag of Ireland really shouldn't encourage others to be using it in such a way that they are just trying to provoke a reaction from rival fans. It's disrespectful to what the flag actually represents which is peace between two communities.

The same goes for the clowns in the Hearts end waving their Union flags about.

Give it a rest and leave that to the Glasgow lot.

Yes both as bad as each other only wave them to get a reaction.

[Lancs Harp]

I also live in England and most fans barely know who we are given the media coverage of the 'old firm' get or give a hoot.
Dynamic Duo? hardly a term for those two either.

Was very tongue in cheek fella.

[Nakedmanoncrack]

Totally agree. I want to see Irish flags OUT of Easter Road and back at Celtic Park where they belong.

Ridiculous comments like this prove that there is indeed a sectarian problem amongst some Hibs supporters.

[.Sean.]

This is my take on it.

There is no doubt that the current trend in Edinburgh football is towards a return to the bad old days of the 70s. Part of that is the return to Easter Road of the tricolour and the Union flag to Tynecastle. I don't give an actual **** if we are entitled to fly the tricolour because of the clubs Irish roots or if the Yams are 'entitled' to fly the Union flag because it is after all the flag of Great Britain. The utter truth is that the use of both flags is helping to drive a sectarian element to our rivalry which I for one thought and hoped was long gone.

If anybody seriously thinks this is the problem of folk who are making too much of this because after all its only a flag then they are deluding themselves … if its not the solution its part of the problem and both flags being waved by the respective supports are part of the problem, whether folk are prepared to admit that or not.

There were too many tricolours in the Hibs end last night and I for one will be happy when they are long gone …. and if I'm being honest you can chuck the 'Erin go bragh' flags in the sodding bin along with them … we are not an Irish club, we are a Scottish one and unless you are Irish what the hell has an Ireland forever flag got to do with you anyway?

Lets stop kidding ourselves …. acknowledging the clubs roots is one thing, we do that in the clubs name, the clubs colours and by having the original Irish harp in our badge … nobody, including me, has any problem with that .. I firmly believe we should honour the original founders of our club and the struggle they had both against sectarianism and poverty. But waving Irish tricolours and Erin go bragh flags only helps to stoke a reaction from folk at certain other clubs who just love to keep the sectarian pot boiling … its not needed at the football and I want my club to be the one to put it to bed.This is the best post I’ve read on here in a long long time. The day Hibs are associated with Irish republicanism in the same way that celtic are (and there currently seems to be plenty younger and naive supporters intent on doing so) is the day I’ll stop going to the football. I cringe at the wee spotty virgins that come out for Ibrox and Tynecastle with a 2 quid tricolour off eBay. Probably couldny find Ireland on a map let alone tell you why they’re flying the flag or what they’re trying to represent with it. **** off to Celtic Park of you want to indulge on that pish.

[Vini1875]

Of course they're entitled to do so and I would never suggest that flags be banned.

I would very much question if these flags are being waved as a representation of our history though. Why don't we see these flags at other games? How many Irish tricolours do you reckon we'll see tomorrow?

For anyone who genuinely cares about our history and in respecting the national flag of Ireland really shouldn't encourage others to be using it in such a way that they are just trying to provoke a reaction from rival fans. It's disrespectful to what the flag actually represents which is peace between two communities.

The same goes for the clowns in the Hearts end waving their Union flags about.

Give it a rest and leave that to the Glasgow lot.

Equally though, there are many different flags brought along to tynie and ibrox yet won't be brought along to a home game v st.johnstone. Partly it is due to intensity I would say and the higher the intensity the higher likelihood of flags of all descriptions.

[BegbieHSC]

seriously. IMO, all of this needs to stop. i saw some gimp selling easter lilly badges on a hibs FB page recently FFS. The fact is, the tricolor didn't even exist what we were founded, and it has no part in our present. if we want to tell everyone else to start behaving, we need to get our house in order first.

Hate tae burst yer bubble, but the tri-colour was around quite a bit before we were founded. It was actually designed by French revolutionaries, sympathetic with the cause, thus the similarities with the flags of the two countries. Obviously it wasn’t formally adopted till a lot later, but it’s been flown around since the 1840s.

And personally, while I don’t take a tri-colour to games, I’m proud of our club’s unique heritage, a Scottish club, founded for the betterment of the lives of the marginalised Irish Catholics in our city.

Tbh, I don’t really understand why people take major issue.

Btw, Easter Lillies are commemorative for the 1916 Easter Rising, and a good few Hibees have Irish heritage, so I don’t think people selling them are ‘gimps’

[Antifa Hibs]

Nae Nookie wrote...

This is my take on it.

There is no doubt that the current trend in Edinburgh football is towards a return to the bad old days of the 70s. Part of that is the return to Easter Road of the tricolour and the Union flag to Tynecastle. I don't give an actual **** if we are entitled to fly the tricolour because of the clubs Irish roots or if the Yams are 'entitled' to fly the Union flag because it is after all the flag of Great Britain. The utter truth is that the use of both flags is helping to drive a sectarian element to our rivalry which I for one thought and hoped was long gone.

If anybody seriously thinks this is the problem of folk who are making too much of this because after all its only a flag then they are deluding themselves … if its not the solution its part of the problem and both flags being waved by the respective supports are part of the problem, whether folk are prepared to admit that or not.

There were too many tricolours in the Hibs end last night and I for one will be happy when they are long gone …. and if I'm being honest you can chuck the 'Erin go bragh' flags in the sodding bin along with them … we are not an Irish club, we are a Scottish one and unless you are Irish what the hell has an Ireland forever flag got to do with you anyway?

Lets stop kidding ourselves …. acknowledging the clubs roots is one thing, we do that in the clubs name, the clubs colours and by having the original Irish harp in our badge … nobody, including me, has any problem with that .. I firmly believe we should honour the original founders of our club and the struggle they had both against sectarianism and poverty. But waving Irish tricolours and Erin go bragh flags only helps to stoke a reaction from folk at certain other clubs who just love to keep the sectarian pot boiling … its not needed at the football and I want my club to be the one to put it to bed.

What utter utter pish. Return to the 70's? Were we at the same game last night?

Part of the return is the tri-color and UJ's? What return, when did they go away?

What does Erin Go Bragh have to do with us? It was our first badge FFS. Or do we bin any flags that have old crests/badges on them?

People that take offence at flags are the dafties here. I include any Hibby's in that who go mental at a butchers apron or red haun of ulster.

[Antifa Hibs]

Lendo wrote...

The key word there being 'historic'

Find the tri-colour flag waving all a bit cringe worthy. Purely done by wee bams trying to provoke a reaction. Personally, it's not for me, having no affiliation with Ireland and having never actually visited the place (which is likely the case for the majority of the flag wavers)

There was a saturn badge flag in Greece and a crown crest badge on Wednesday, do we ban those 'historic' flags aswell or just the Irish ones? Some people call the huns bigots too LOL

I've seen the Northern Ireland Hibs flag with the Dublin Hibs flag, we've been the casuals green black union jack flying from the stands aswell as the Liverpool Hibs 'Navy Ensign' flag along side tri-colours and erin go braghs. We're probably the most open and tolerant support in the country. How well would a tri-colour go down in Gorgie? Or a green/gold union flag at Parkhead?

[1van Sprou7e]

Can't believe people think that waving a tricolour is sectarian....

Our club is intrinsically tied together with Ireland. It's in our name our colours and our history and it's wrong imo to try and ditch all of that just because some nuckledragger thinks it's sectarian

[Keith_M]

Hibs had a problem in our support in the 70s, with rebel songs and tricolours common at games (which had nothing to do with supporting our heritage) and this culminated in a game at Stirling where the Hibs end was full of tricolours.

The innovative answer taken was a public statement by the club condemning sectarianism and a ban on tricolours at ER. Extreme yes, but it got the message home and made a big difference for decades.


-----

No, there is nothing wrong with a tricolour as such and yes we have an Irish heritage.. but anybody that suggests that's the reason they appear in large numbers at games against Rangers and Hearts must think the rest of us button up the back.

I don't want Edinburgh derbies to resemble a bad night out in Belfast.

[Antifa Hibs]

Keekaboo...

Hibs had a problem in our support in the 70s, with rebel songs and tricolours common at games (which had nothing to do with supporting our heritage) and this culminated in a game at Stirling where the Hibs end was full of tricolours.

The innovative answer taken was a public statement by the club condemning sectarianism and a ban on tricolours at ER. Extreme yes, but it got the message home and made a big difference for decades.


-----

No, there is nothing wrong with a tricolour as such and yes we have an Irish heritage.. but anybody that suggests that's the reason they appear in large numbers at games against Rangers and Hearts must think the rest of us button up the back.

I don't want Edinburgh derbies to resemble a bad night out in Belfast.

It's a legitimate reason but your right, its not the reason. However you could argue that we've yet to hear St Johnstone and Ross County call us fenians, sing the billy boys and whatever else hence you won't see them.

It's quite worrying however that people think the answer to bigotry and intolerance is by banning national flags.


PS is the quote feature broken for anyone else or just me?

[BegbieHSC]

Can't believe people think that waving a tricolour is sectarian....

Our club is intrinsically tied together with Ireland. It's in our name our colours and our history and it's wrong imo to try and ditch all of that just because some nuckledragger thinks it's sectarian

Claiming flying the Tri-Colour is sectarian, sounds just as stupid as the folk saying Lenny goaded himself into being attacked the other night.

100% here!

[makaveli1875]

People that get violent at the football arent doing it because theyre offended by flags , songs or hand gestures , they do it because they like to fight and act hard . ban flags and they'll soon find something else to fight about

[oldbutdim]

People that get violent at the football arent doing it because theyre offended by flags , songs or hand gestures , they do it because they like to fight and act hard . ban flags and they'll soon find something else to fight about

Certainly quite a number of fans of both sides with the flags seemed to me to be using them simply as attention seeking rather than any sort of pride in carrying them.

You're right - if they can't use flags to start a rammy then they'll find something else to get agitated about.

[My_Wife_Camille]

Ridiculous comments like this prove that there is indeed a sectarian problem amongst some Hibs supporters.
If you want to act like a ned by stirring up political and religious hatred then be my guest. I’m sure you’ll be welcomed with open arms by those across the M8.

This is type of Mini Celtic attitude is not wanted or needed among true Hibernian Football Club supporters

[1van Sprou7e]

If you want to act like a ned by stirring up political and religious hatred then be my guest. I’m sure you’ll be welcomed with open arms by those across the M8.

This is type of Mini Celtic attitude is not wanted or needed among true Hibernian Football Club supporters

You do realise you are working to create division with this kind of attitude

If you think that a club with Irish roots should not be allowed to fly tricolours for fear of being associated with Celtic then you obviously care too much about what other people think

[My_Wife_Camille]

You do realise you are working to create division with this kind of attitude

If you think that a club with Irish roots should not be allowed to fly tricolours for fear of being associated with Celtic then you obviously care too much about what other people think
Heard it all before. The ones who want to stop sectarianism and bigotry are the ones who are making it worse supposedly.

[Stokesy's on fire]

I'm proud of Hibernians roots and they should never be forgotten. The Tricolours at games are fine by me if you end up offended by the Tricolour then maybe you should sit with the people over at Ibrox. To be honest this thread is utterly ridiculous. Fly any flag you want to fly its your own choice.

[The Modfather]

If you want to act like a ned by stirring up political and religious hatred then be my guest. I’m sure you’ll be welcomed with open arms by those across the M8.

This is type of Mini Celtic attitude is not wanted or needed among true Hibernian Football Club supporters

Sounds like you're more suited to the rugby, where you can hold hands with the opposition fans and applaud when they score. Oh and you can get a nice half and half scarf while you're there.

:devil:

[The_Horde]

I was in Malones pre match. The amount of hibs fans kidding themselves on that they knew the words to the rebel songs that were being played was, quite frankly, embarrassing.

It's no surprise to me that there's a photo doing the rounds of (probably the same) hibs fans at the game holding Irish flags the Ivory Coast way around.

[Stokesy's on fire]

Can't believe people think that waving a tricolour is sectarian....

Our club is intrinsically tied together with Ireland. It's in our name our colours and our history and it's wrong imo to try and ditch all of that just because some nuckledragger thinks it's sectarian

This 100%

[Stokesy's on fire]

I was in Malones pre match. The amount of hibs fans kidding themselves on that they knew the words to the rebel songs that were being played was, quite frankly, embarrassing.

It's no surprise to me that there's a photo doing the rounds of (probably the same) hibs fans at the game holding Irish flags the Ivory Coast way around.


We all love Sol Bamba! :aok:

[1van Sprou7e]

Heard it all before. The ones who want to stop sectarianism and bigotry are the ones who are making it worse supposedly.

So censoring a non-offensive symbol is somehow stopping sectarianism, keep telling yourself that bud

[earlshaugh]

I honestly don't care that it was mate. The vast majority of Hibs fans these days are about as Irish as Haggis and the ones that aren't Scottish are probably more likely to be English than Irish … our most famous and lauded fan of recent years was from Belize, God rest him.

If when Hibs reach their 150th anniversary the club release a commemorative strip with a Harp on it and 'Erin go bragh' written underneath I will probably buy it … that's a respectful and appropriate nod to the clubs original founders. But all other fans see when Hibs fans wave tricolours and Erin go bragh flags on the terraces now is a club who after 140 years are seemingly unprepared to acknowledge the country they should be supporting and representative of …. IE Scotland.

As I alluded to in my original post …. It may well be right in an ideal world to expect folk to be able to wave whatever symbols they want with no reaction and no consequences … but we don't live in an ideal world, and for so long as the tricolour or Erin go bragh flags are part of a sectarian problem and give fans of other clubs an excuse to react in kind with all of the accompanying bile and hatred that goes with it I would rather not see these things part of our modern fan culture.


well said

[AgentDaleCooper]

People are missing the point. It's not about the flags themselves, it's how they are used. I agree that getting rid of flags isn't going to stop monkey business at football games, but they are used as part of the paraphernalia of hatred. The are the visible aspect of sectarianism, and IMO if we want to complain about other teams having problems with sectarianism, we need to get our house in order first.

It is a genuinely small minority in hibs' case, but sectarianism exists within our club. It's mainly daft wee laddies with nothing better to do, but that still feeds into the problem within our society, and we need to take responsibility for ourselves, so that when we complain about other teams, we don't come across as hypocrites.

[AgentDaleCooper]

I'm proud of Hibernians roots and they should never be forgotten. The Tricolours at games are fine by me if you end up offended by the Tricolour then maybe you should sit with the people over at Ibrox. To be honest this thread is utterly ridiculous. Fly any flag you want to fly its your own choice.

Again, this isn't a comment on the flag itself, it's about how it's used.

[HibeeHibernian4]

If you want to act like a ned by stirring up political and religious hatred then be my guest. I’m sure you’ll be welcomed with open arms by those across the M8.

This is type of Mini Celtic attitude is not wanted or needed among true Hibernian Football Club supporters

Please point to me where the political and religious hatred lies in an Erin go Bragh flag. I'll be waiting.

[Eyrie]

This should be on the Holy Ground.

[JeMeSouviens]

I honestly don't care that it was mate. The vast majority of Hibs fans these days are about as Irish as Haggis and the ones that aren't Scottish are probably more likely to be English than Irish … our most famous and lauded fan of recent years was from Belize, God rest him.

If when Hibs reach their 150th anniversary the club release a commemorative strip with a Harp on it and 'Erin go bragh' written underneath I will probably buy it … that's a respectful and appropriate nod to the clubs original founders. But all other fans see when Hibs fans wave tricolours and Erin go bragh flags on the terraces now is a club who after 140 years are seemingly unprepared to acknowledge the country they should be supporting and representative of …. IE Scotland.

As I alluded to in my original post …. It may well be right in an ideal world to expect folk to be able to wave whatever symbols they want with no reaction and no consequences … but we don't live in an ideal world, and for so long as the tricolour or Erin go bragh flags are part of a sectarian problem and give fans of other clubs an excuse to react in kind with all of the accompanying bile and hatred that goes with it I would rather not see these things part of our modern fan culture.

I usually agree with your posts, but this just reads like appeasement. Yes, the motivation of some taking tricolours to Tiny or Ibrox might be questionable, but we should never apologise to anyone for our roots. The club and our support are, imo, very respectful and appropriate in acknowledging and being proud of our founders while being inclusive and open to all. (And I say that as an atheist with no Irish or Catholic background whatsoever.)

[My_Wife_Camille]

So censoring a non-offensive symbol is somehow stopping sectarianism, keep telling yourself that bud
Using a non-offensive symbol in an offensive context makes it offensive. In the context of Scottish football the Irish Tricolor, just like the Union Flag, means one thing and one thing only - it's a symbol of religious and political sectarianism.

It's a sad state of affairs but those trying to pretend otherwise are just burying their heads in the sand and are complicit in the normalisation of this type of bigotry in Scotland. The Tricolor may have been a non-offensive symbol originally (and in some cases still is) but it wouldn't be the first time we've seen a non-offensive symbol hijacked by those desperate to turn it into a symbol of bigotry and hate. The swastika, for example, was historically a symbol of peace (and in some cases still is) but I doubt you'd be comfortable running around brandishing one and telling everyone who is offended by it that they are the real bigots, would you?

[Monts]

Proudly Irish - Fiercely Scottish

:wink:

[makaveli1875]

Using a non-offensive symbol in an offensive context makes it offensive. In the context of Scottish football the Irish Tricolor, just like the Union Flag, means one thing and one thing only - it's a symbol of religious and political sectarianism.

It's a sad state of affairs but those trying to pretend otherwise are just burying their heads in the sand and are complicit in the normalisation of this type of bigotry in Scotland. The Tricolor may have been a non-offensive symbol originally (and in some cases still is) but it wouldn't be the first time we've seen a non-offensive symbol hijacked by those desperate to turn it into a symbol of bigotry and hate. The swastika, for example, was historically a symbol of peace (and in some cases still is) but I doubt you'd be comfortable running around brandishing one and telling everyone who is offended by it that they are the real bigots, would you?

Your trying to compare the Tri-Colour to a Swastika ? come on man

[JeMeSouviens]

Using a non-offensive symbol in an offensive context makes it offensive. In the context of Scottish football the Irish Tricolor, just like the Union Flag, means one thing and one thing only - it's a symbol of religious and political sectarianism.

It's a sad state of affairs but those trying to pretend otherwise are just burying their heads in the sand and are complicit in the normalisation of this type of bigotry in Scotland. The Tricolor may have been a non-offensive symbol originally (and in some cases still is) but it wouldn't be the first time we've seen a non-offensive symbol hijacked by those desperate to turn it into a symbol of bigotry and hate. The swastika, for example, was historically a symbol of peace (and in some cases still is) but I doubt you'd be comfortable running around brandishing one and telling everyone who is offended by it that they are the real bigots, would you?

It's Ireland's flag ffs. A friendly neighbour country. You have seriously lost your sense of proportion here.

[kenja]

Using a non-offensive symbol in an offensive context makes it offensive. In the context of Scottish football the Irish Tricolor, just like the Union Flag, means one thing and one thing only - it's a symbol of religious and political sectarianism.

It's a sad state of affairs but those trying to pretend otherwise are just burying their heads in the sand and are complicit in the normalisation of this type of bigotry in Scotland. The Tricolor may have been a non-offensive symbol originally (and in some cases still is) but it wouldn't be the first time we've seen a non-offensive symbol hijacked by those desperate to turn it into a symbol of bigotry and hate. The swastika, for example, was historically a symbol of peace (and in some cases still is) but I doubt you'd be comfortable running around brandishing one and telling everyone who is offended by it that they are the real bigots, would you?

Could almost agree with some of this, but comparing the flag of the Irish Republic to the swastika is clearly losing the plot.

[BlackSheep]

It's Ireland's flag ffs. A friendly neighbour country. You have seriously lost your sense of proportion here.

I dont think he has... his example is the best comparison to illustrate his point as well.

There are many, many, many instances where something non offensive is used in an offensive way to promote hatred and unfortunately in Scotland the Tricolour, Irish flag or not, is one of those non offensive symbols used to promote sectarian hatred, or at least the impression of hatred. I say impression as I can guarantee that most of the idiots who sing the chants and use the derogatory language wouldn't be caught dead behaving that way amongst friends and family and even their workplace.

[Squirrel 1875]

Using a non-offensive symbol in an offensive context makes it offensive. In the context of Scottish football the Irish Tricolor, just like the Union Flag, means one thing and one thing only - it's a symbol of religious and political sectarianism.

It's a sad state of affairs but those trying to pretend otherwise are just burying their heads in the sand and are complicit in the normalisation of this type of bigotry in Scotland. The Tricolor may have been a non-offensive symbol originally (and in some cases still is) but it wouldn't be the first time we've seen a non-offensive symbol hijacked by those desperate to turn it into a symbol of bigotry and hate. The swastika, for example, was historically a symbol of peace (and in some cases still is) but I doubt you'd be comfortable running around brandishing one and telling everyone who is offended by it that they are the real bigots, would you?

This is utterly obscene. As a proud Scot living in Ireland I am appalled at your lack of judgement in this matter. Would freedom fighters like Martin McGuness, or Nelson Mandela, have stood under and fought for a flag which is even remotely comparable to a swastika? This website is insane some times.

[1van Sprou7e]

So to summarise:

•Don't ban tricolours
•Don't use tricolours to promote hatred
•Don't use the football as an excuse to act like a fanny
•Don't get offended by trivial pish

Can we lock the thread now?

[SideBurns]

If those flying tricolours & harp flags with Erin Go Bragh on them were also singing rebel songs, then we'd have a problem. But they don't, and therefore if any Hearts fans or Huns are enraged at the sight of them then it is they who have the bigoted attitude, and there is no reason why Hibs fans should cease to fly the flags simply to placate bigots.

By the way, the flag of the IRA was the Starry Plough - now, if that started appearing then it would be a one-sided debate (but since the flag is predominately blue I'd suggest we're unlikely to see it, thankfully...)...

[JeMeSouviens]

I dont think he has... his example is the best comparison to illustrate his point as well.

There are many, many, many instances where something non offensive is used in an offensive way to promote hatred and unfortunately in Scotland the Tricolour, Irish flag or not, is one of those non offensive symbols used to promote sectarian hatred, or at least the impression of hatred. I say impression as I can guarantee that most of the idiots who sing the chants and use the derogatory language wouldn't be caught dead behaving that way amongst friends and family and even their workplace.

I wasn't at Tiny the other night but are you really suggesting Hibs fans indulged in sectarian chants and/or language? The only thing I've ever heard that could be construed as sectarianism from Hibs fans is calling Rangers and their players "orange b's". tbh, I don't even think of that as sectarian, the orange order in no way represents any of the mainstream protestant religions and hasn't for many years (thankfully).

We have behavioural issues with a minority of hardcore neds that are magnified for various reasons at Tiny but in general, there is no sectarianism problem at Hibs and it's a giant sized red herring to start handwringing about one based on a handful of wind up merchants with Irish tricolours.

[The Harp Awakes]

Having experienced stacks of flag debates on here over the years, they have always reached the same conclusion: a healthy number are comfortable with tricolour/harp flags in the Hibs end, a smaller number don't like them and the majority are non-plused one way or another. I suspect the thread will have a similar outcome this time.

In my years supporting Hibs I've never taken a tricolour to a Hibs game, probably because I consider myself Scottish albeit I have much more Irish ancestry than Scots. I've taken Erin go Bragh golden harp flags to games though, as I consider the motto and harp to be intrinsinctly linked to Hibernian FC.

I have absolutely no problem with the tricolour though; it is the flag of a fellow, Celtic nation after all and a country I have a lot of affection for. Equally I have no problem with those who are anti harp/tricolour flags. Hibs are different things to different people and we are all inclusive.

[JeMeSouviens]

So to summarise:

•Don't ban tricolours
•Don't use tricolours to promote hatred
•Don't use the football as an excuse to act like a fanny
•Don't get offended by trivial pish

Can we lock the thread now?

:top marks works for me.

[BullsCloseHibs]

What a nonsense post. You have no right whatsoever to tell any Hibs fan this. The flag may not have been invented when Hibs were born, so what? The country it represents however has everything to do with my club's fine past.:agree:

[PeeJay]

Our manager and one of our players are Irish but we have a problem with their national flag? Only in Scotland! I’ve no problem with virtually any kind of flag being taken in by fans and I include the green, white and black union flags even though I’m personally in favour of an independent Scotland.

Neil Lennon is Northern Irish if I recall - the tricolour flag being referred to here is the flag of the RoI and not actually his country's flag or his national flag! Just saying like ... :greengrin

[JeMeSouviens]

What a nonsense post. You have no right whatsoever to tell any Hibs fan this. The flag may not have been invented when Hibs were born, so what? The country it represents however has everything to do with my club's fine past.:agree:

It predates Hibs by almost 30 years ...


In 1848, several revolutions took place in Europe, inspired by the French Revolution. William Smith O’Brien and Thomas Meagher went to France to congratulate the new Republic. Meagher returned to Ireland with a silk tricolour flag and presented it at a meeting in Dublin. The tricolour is now the Irish flag.

[Lancs Harp]

Having experienced stacks of flag debates on here over the years, they have always reached the same conclusion: a healthy number are comfortable with tricolour/harp flags in the Hibs end, a smaller number don't like them and the majority are non-plused one way or another. I suspect the thread will have a similar outcome this time.

In my years supporting Hibs I've never taken a tricolour to a Hibs game, probably because I consider myself Scottish albeit I have much more Irish ancestry than Scots. I've taken Erin go Bragh golden harp flags to games though, as I consider the motto and harp to be intrinsinctly linked to Hibernian FC.

I have absolutely no problem with the tricolour though; it is the flag of a fellow, Celtic nation after all and a country I have a lot of affection for. Equally I have no problem with those who are anti harp/tricolour flags. Hibs are different things to different people and we are all inclusive.

Very true. Its clear through the zillions of debates we have on this topic that there are differing viewpoints and no clear consensus on the matter. The important thing for me is that we are all Hibs and the club continues to be highly inclusive, a Hibs trait I find particularly appealing. I certainly don't think we should be banning flags etc and marginalising anybodies opinion or beliefs.

[Tinribs]

I don't find any flags particularly offensive, and certainly not the Irish one. It is annoying when they are appropriated by fascist types, but banning flags is fascist too. I don't like the SNP's attempted ownership of the saltire either, but respect their right to use it.
As long as a tricolour doesn't have IRA on its panels, then no worries.

[BlackSheep]

I wasn't at Tiny the other night but are you really suggesting Hibs fans indulged in sectarian chants and/or language? The only thing I've ever heard that could be construed as sectarianism from Hibs fans is calling Rangers and their players "orange b's". tbh, I don't even think of that as sectarian, the orange order in no way represents any of the mainstream protestant religions and hasn't for many years (thankfully).

We have behavioural issues with a minority of hardcore neds that are magnified for various reasons at Tiny but in general, there is no sectarianism problem at Hibs and it's a giant sized red herring to start handwringing about one based on a handful of wind up merchants with Irish tricolours.

Apologies I wasnt really clear... I didnt mean Hibs fans specifically use the tricolour as a symbol of sectarianism, I meant in general... Fans from all over the country who deem it ok to sing sectarian songs and chants will also wave a tricolour or a union flag as a visual symbol of their 'hatred'.

A prime example of this was at Tiny on Wednesday, a fan in the Hearts main stand stood waving a Union Flag close to the Roseburn end, whilst wearing an orange scarf emblazoned with red hands.... Onbviously i cannot be 100% certain but I would place a bet on him not actually being that aligned with those symbols.... just used them to promote his form of hatred.

[AgentDaleCooper]

So to summarise:

•Don't ban tricolours
•Don't use tricolours to promote hatred
•Don't use the football as an excuse to act like a fanny
•Don't get offended by trivial pish



Completely agree with all of these - i'm not talking about banning them. I'm saying that it needs to be acknowledged that their appearence makes a negative contribution to things, and that it would be much better if they weren't seen at games.

[Stokesy's on fire]

What a nonsense post. You have no right whatsoever to tell any Hibs fan this. The flag may not have been invented when Hibs were born, so what? The country it represents however has everything to do with my club's fine past.:agree:

:aok:

[Stokesy's on fire]

Completely agree with all of these - i'm not talking about banning them. I'm saying that it needs to be acknowledged that their appearence makes a negative contribution to things, and that it would be much better if they weren't seen at games.


Do you get upset over the Green, White and Black union flag with Hibs written on it as well?

[Pretty Boy]

For generations 'winding up the other lot' has been a part of going to the football for young guys and girls. It's almost a rite of passage. Does waving an Ireland flag, Ulster banner, Palestine, Israel or Swaziland flag enrich the experience of football? Not for me personally but if the aim is to wind opposition fans up then it's effective; I daresay for some annoying 1 or 2 of your own is an added bonus as well. When all is said and done it's a bit fabric in different colours, as evidenced on Wednesday there are far worse things that could be going on. Are we really at the stage where we are getting all worked up and angry about a Union flag or a Tricolour?

Part of me thinks there's a lot of rose tinted glasses being worn and the selective memory of middle age plus is coming to the fore. The 'it's getting worse' mentality of the last few days with all sorts or ludicrous suggestions about empty stadiums and the like is getting beyond a joke. The 'in my day we shared a nip out a half bottle and shook hands after the game' line of thinking is on a par with how every summer was scorching in the 70s and everyone was delighted with 5p and an apple at Christmas as they enjoyed a wholesome family singsong round the fire. Segregation was brought in for a reason and there have always been wind ups and unsavoury stuff at the football; in the day of social media, instant video uploads and smart phones it's just harder to get away with it now.

We need to deal with the serious stuff, treat violence as it deserves to be treated and tackle deep rooted hatred. I can't get to worked up about a lot of the other stuff that makes football what it is and gives it an edge; a few daft laddies waving flags about probably falls into the latter category.

[Golden Bear]

This is my take on it.

There is no doubt that the current trend in Edinburgh football is towards a return to the bad old days of the 70s. Part of that is the return to Easter Road of the tricolour and the Union flag to Tynecastle. I don't give an actual **** if we are entitled to fly the tricolour because of the clubs Irish roots or if the Yams are 'entitled' to fly the Union flag because it is after all the flag of Great Britain. The utter truth is that the use of both flags is helping to drive a sectarian element to our rivalry which I for one thought and hoped was long gone.

If anybody seriously thinks this is the problem of folk who are making too much of this because after all its only a flag then they are deluding themselves … if its not the solution its part of the problem and both flags being waved by the respective supports are part of the problem, whether folk are prepared to admit that or not.

There were too many tricolours in the Hibs end last night and I for one will be happy when they are long gone …. and if I'm being honest you can chuck the 'Erin go bragh' flags in the sodding bin along with them … we are not an Irish club, we are a Scottish one and unless you are Irish what the hell has an Ireland forever flag got to do with you anyway?

Lets stop kidding ourselves …. acknowledging the clubs roots is one thing, we do that in the clubs name, the clubs colours and by having the original Irish harp in our badge … nobody, including me, has any problem with that .. I firmly believe we should honour the original founders of our club and the struggle they had both against sectarianism and poverty. But waving Irish tricolours and Erin go bragh flags only helps to stoke a reaction from folk at certain other clubs who just love to keep the sectarian pot boiling … its not needed at the football and I want my club to be the one to put it to bed.

Outstanding post.

:top marks

[Nakedmanoncrack]

If you want to act like a ned by stirring up political and religious hatred then be my guest. I’m sure you’ll be welcomed with open arms by those across the M8.

This is type of Mini Celtic attitude is not wanted or needed among true Hibernian Football Club supporters

I'll leave that to a bigot like yourself.
Someone so enraged by the sight of an Irish flag that they want people to f*** off elsewhere, maybe you eould want people with the wrong shade of skin colour to clear off as well? Your attitude is as complete an example of the anti-Irish racism, as likely to see.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Do you get upset over the Green, White and Black union flag with Hibs written on it as well?

As i have already said, no.

Also, it's not about 'being upset', it's about asking whether it hrings something negative to the game.

[AgentDaleCooper]

I'll leave that to a bigot like yourself.
Someone so enraged by the sight of an Irish flag that they want people to f*** off elsewhere, maybe you eould want people with the wrong shade of skin colour to clear off as well? Your attitude is as complete an example of the anti-Irish racism, as likely to see.
**** me, what an uttery pathetic post. Completely twisting what someone else is saying.

[NAE NOOKIE]

What utter utter pish. Return to the 70's? Were we at the same game last night?

Part of the return is the tri-color and UJ's? What return, when did they go away?

What does Erin Go Bragh have to do with us? It was our first badge FFS. Or do we bin any flags that have old crests/badges on them?

People that take offence at flags are the dafties here. I include any Hibby's in that who go mental at a butchers apron or red haun of ulster.

1) …. The behaviour of the fans at the Wednesday derby was as close to the 70s as I have seen this decade, especially with the reported missile throwing as reported by folk on here who were at the match … No I wasn't at the game but I don't see how that's relevant, I watched it on the telly and I can read too. BTW .. I followed Hibs home and away for a large chunk of the 70, so I think I have a fair idea of what things were like then.

2) …. In the 70s the propensity of tricolours was far higher than it has been in the last few decades, no it hadn't gone away … but my point, which you clearly seem to have missed, is that their use is clearly on the rise, especially when we play Hearts or Sevco.

3) …. Like another poster on here you obviously don't read posts properly before replying. I did not say that 'Erin go bragh' has nothing to do with us in the context of the history of the club, as you and others have already pointed out it was the club's original motto. But anybody who thinks flags with that phrase on them along with tricolours being waved by our supporters in the modern era is going to be acknowledged as purely a 'nod' to our original founders by historically aware and sentimental Hibs fans is burying their head in the sand so deep all that's visible is the soles of their feet. Other fans, especially ones who love to ramp up the sectarian divide which has always polluted Scottish football are only going to interpret it one way, and that is that Hibs and its supporters are pinning their colours to the mast in support of one side of that divide and are supportive of its continuation.

Even if that's not true it wont matter a stuff to the knuckle draggers, they will use it to their fullest advantage as an excuse to perpetuate their own vile sectarianism … they will say, why should we bin the red hand of ulster flags, the union jacks and songs about ****ing the Pope when that lot from the north of Edinburgh's loyalty is to another country and by association supportive of the original founders ethos that only Catholics should be around the club. None of that is true and every Hibs fan knows it ……. but do you seriously think that fact will matter in the slightest to them or to the media who will simply portray us as just another part of Scotland's sectarian problem.

If your reaction to that is 'so what' then welcome to another century of sectarianism in Scottish football … because it doesn't matter how noble your intentions or how much you protest that you are not being sectarian, nobody will listen, they will just delight in painting Hibs and our supporters as part of the problem, not at the forefront of the solution to it.

4) … I don't take offence to any national or regional flag, I do take offence to the fact that the use of certain of those flags on the terraces in this country is helping to fuel attitudes and actions which we should have left behind decades ago and offence at those who are prepared to ignore that fact because it should be their right to fly whatever flag they want wherever they want and if that fuels trouble and perpetuates sectarianism its not their problem … the guy along the M8 with his red hand of Ulster flag and flute band practice every Tuesday and Thursday probably has exactly the same attitude and makes exactly the same noises about 'history and culture'

So much for 'utter pish' eh?

PS … If my point needs illustrating then consider the fact that even though I have no problem with folk who are committed unionists flying the union flag, as a committed Scottish nationalist it utterly boils ma pish to see that flag flown from the highest point of Scotland's capital when it should be a Saltire flying there … that feels like an insult … its all about perception.

[My_Wife_Camille]

**** me, what an uttery pathetic post. Completely twisting what someone else is saying.
:agree: Post of a crack addict imo

[JeMeSouviens]

As i have already said, no.

Also, it's not about 'being upset', it's about asking whether it hrings something negative to the game.

Your thread has certainly brought something negative to this forum. For something that's about the least of our worries. :rolleyes:

[The Harp]

This type of thread only divides the support and causes offence. Don't think it's going to change anyone's opinion on the issue, so what's the point?

[NAE NOOKIE]

People are missing the point. It's not about the flags themselves, it's how they are used. I agree that getting rid of flags isn't going to stop monkey business at football games, but they are used as part of the paraphernalia of hatred. The are the visible aspect of sectarianism, and IMO if we want to complain about other teams having problems with sectarianism, we need to get our house in order first.

It is a genuinely small minority in hibs' case, but sectarianism exists within our club. It's mainly daft wee laddies with nothing better to do, but that still feeds into the problem within our society, and we need to take responsibility for ourselves, so that when we complain about other teams, we don't come across as hypocrites.

Exactly this :top marks

[AgentDaleCooper]

This type of thread only divides the support and causes offence. Don't think it's going to change anyone's opinion on the issue, so what's the point?

I'm completely open to my mind being changed, and am looking for healthy debate. I am not offended by anything posted by anyone. I think some of is utter rubbish, but that doesn't offend me :aok:

[Antifa Hibs]

1) …. The behaviour of the fans at the Wednesday derby was as close to the 70s as I have seen this decade, especially with the reported missile throwing as reported by folk on here who were at the match … No I wasn't at the game but I don't see how that's relevant, I watched it on the telly and I can read too. BTW .. I followed Hibs home and away for a large chunk of the 70, so I think I have a fair idea of what things were like then.

2) …. In the 70s the propensity of tricolours was far higher than it has been in the last few decades, no it hadn't gone away … but my point, which you clearly seem to have missed, is that their use is clearly on the rise, especially when we play Hearts or Sevco.

3) …. Like another poster on here you obviously don't read posts properly before replying. I did not say that 'Erin go bragh' has nothing to do with us in the context of the history of the club, as you and others have already pointed out it was the club's original motto. But anybody who thinks flags with that phrase on them along with tricolours being waved by our supporters in the modern era is going to be acknowledged as purely a 'nod' to our original founders by historically aware and sentimental Hibs fans is burying their head in the sand so deep all that's visible is the soles of their feet. Other fans, especially ones who love to ramp up the sectarian divide which has always polluted Scottish football are only going to interpret it one way, and that is that Hibs and its supporters are pinning their colours to the mast in support of one side of that divide and are supportive of its continuation.

Even if that's not true it wont matter a stuff to the knuckle draggers, they will use it to their fullest advantage as an excuse to perpetuate their own vile sectarianism … they will say, why should we bin the red hand of ulster flags, the union jacks and songs about ****ing the Pope when that lot from the north of Edinburgh's loyalty is to another country and by association supportive of the original founders ethos that only Catholics should be around the club. None of that is true and every Hibs fan knows it ……. but do you seriously think that fact will matter in the slightest to them or to the media who will simply portray us as just another part of Scotland's sectarian problem.

If your reaction to that is 'so what' then welcome to another century of sectarianism in Scottish football … because it doesn't matter how noble your intentions or how much you protest that you are not being sectarian, nobody will listen, they will just delight in painting Hibs and our supporters as part of the problem, not at the forefront of the solution to it.

4) … I don't take offence to any national or regional flag, I do take offence to the fact that the use of certain of those flags on the terraces in this country is helping to fuel attitudes and actions which we should have left behind decades ago and offence at those who are prepared to ignore that fact because it should be their right to fly whatever flag they want wherever they want and if that fuels trouble and perpetuates sectarianism its not their problem … the guy along the M8 with his red hand of Ulster flag and flute band practice every Tuesday and Thursday probably has exactly the same attitude and makes exactly the same noises about 'history and culture'

So much for 'utter pish' eh?

PS … If my point needs illustrating then consider the fact that even though I have no problem with folk who are committed unionists flying the union flag, as a committed Scottish nationalist it utterly boils ma pish to see that flag flown from the highest point of Scotland's capital when it should be a Saltire flying there … that feels like an insult … its all about perception.

Aye. You weren't there but are comparing Wednesday to 40yr ago :faf:

Don't get taking in by the sensationalism on here and the media. It was slightly worse than previous Tynecastle derbies granted. But talks of ground closure's, reduced allocations etc. Mental. We had one fanny through a cup of coke at the linesman after a dodgy decision and one fanny slap/punch/attempted punch at the goalie. Ban them two and let hertz take care of their dafties.

To also to compare a Hibs fan taking an erin go bragh flag to some ejjit with a red hand is ludicrous. The EGB flag has a place in the stands at easter road as much as any other flag with our current or past crests on it. If it was any other Irish republican flag such as a starry plough then i could see your point. It's amazing i've never heard people give a **** about Irish flags actually at the games but every season or two a thread like this pops up.

[HibeeHibernian4]

Some of it smacks of bowing down to the horrible hun hordes.

"Oooh please don't be mad at us, we'll stop waving the tricolours, we promise."

Bootlickers.

[NAE NOOKIE]

I usually agree with your posts, but this just reads like appeasement. Yes, the motivation of some taking tricolours to Tiny or Ibrox might be questionable, but we should never apologise to anyone for our roots. The club and our support are, imo, very respectful and appropriate in acknowledging and being proud of our founders while being inclusive and open to all. (And I say that as an atheist with no Irish or Catholic background whatsoever.)

Its not about "appeasement" mate, its about pragmatism. I agree with every bit of your post here when it comes to Hibs, its an absolute certainty that 90% of Hibs fans don't give an actual rats ass what religion, ethnicity or sexuality their fellow Hibs fans are … those that do would be racists and bigots in any walk of life and the fact that they follow Hibs is regrettable … but I'm sure every club has that demographic within its support … some more than others :greengrin

My whole point isn't because I object to the flag of the Irish republic, hells bells I will acknowledge to anyone who brings up the subject that I believe in a united Ireland .. but that's not because I'm a Hibs supporter and that outlook isn't why I support Hibs either, its simply that as a person with a reasonable grasp of Irish history the fact that the division of what should be a single entity into two by what in modern international law would be criminal means is enough to tell me that Irish unification is something I must support.

But as a lover of football I cant ignore the fact that flags, including the Irish tricolour, are the visible symbols of a sectarian divide which has poisoned the Scottish game for over a century and as Scotland continues on its merry way into the 21st century ( Hopefully as an independent state :greengrin ) and Sectarianism in society continues to dwindle and becomes more and more recognised for the embarrassment to Scotland it has always been I for one do not want to see Scottish football being left behind as the last vestige of bygone and hateful days.

Even if the person waving a flag at certain football matches doesn't do it in an act of sectarianism, even if they rightly say they have a right to wave whatever flag they want, like it or not they are tacitly perpetuating a state of affairs we surely all want to see the back of and Scottish football needs to see the back of. Unilaterally ending the use of certain flags at games involving Hibs isn't appeasement mate, its showing that Hibs supporters are prepared to acknowledge the fact that its a small but important step on the road to divorcing the game from hatred and rivalry based not on football and geography but on religious division …. surely that's not too big a sacrifice to make.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Aye. You weren't there but are comparing Wednesday to 40yr ago :faf:

Don't get taking in by the sensationalism on here and the media. It was slightly worse than previous Tynecastle derbies granted. But talks of ground closure's, reduced allocations etc. Mental. We had one fanny through a cup of coke at the linesman after a dodgy decision and one fanny slap/punch/attempted punch at the goalie. Ban them two and let hertz take care of their dafties.

To also to compare a Hibs fan taking an erin go bragh flag to some ejjit with a red hand is ludicrous. The EGB flag has a place in the stands at easter road as much as any other flag with our current or past crests on it. If it was any other Irish republican flag such as a starry plough then i could see your point. It's amazing i've never heard people give a **** about Irish flags actually at the games but every season or two a thread like this pops up.

Once again, what has the fact that I wasn't at the game got to do with it …. the incidents at the game were widely reported, including by Hibs fans on this forum who were at the game and described in detail actions by elements of the Hibs support which were extremely reminiscent of 40 years ago … back then it wasn't smoke bombs … but coins, lighters, and bottles being thrown were a part of every trip to an away ground … I was hit by a golf ball at Tannadice around 1978 :greengrin

Your second paragraph illustrates perfectly the turning a blind eye to reality attitude I'm talking about … I have explained fully why the 'Erin go bragh' flag falls into the negative side of a drive to rid the Scottish game of sectarianism …. I absolutely agree that it shouldn't be that way …. but the truth is that it IS that way and we need to be pragmatic about it if we are ever to rid the game of even the perception that it is sectarian …. if folk aren't prepared to see that then I'm happy to join them in their little cocoon surrounded by Unicorns and butterflies.

[CMurdoch]

Some great well thought out and written posts by the likes of Nae Nookie.
It is sad that the usual folk are stuck in the last century and their opinions and justifications are similar to the flag waving fans of Hearts, Celtic and Rangers.

We all know the Irish Catholic roots of the club. No Hibs fan is ashamed of our roots. There is nothing to be ashamed of, it's the historical story of the club.

We acknowledge the Irish roots of our club and our founders by continuing to be called Hibernian FC and playing in green and white.

However, Irish influence stopped a long long long time ago. We are now a 21st Century Scottish team from Edinburgh who play in a Scottish League who are owned and predominately supported by Scots. Nothing to do with Ireland. Accordingly Scottish fans waving a (Erin Go Bragh) Ireland Forever flag or the Tricolour makes no real sense and for the reasons explained by Nae Nookie and others, causes issues and keeps us a part of the dafty equation with Hearts, Celtic and Rangers.
The flag wavers are keeping us tethered to this baggage. We need to be completely free of this and be seen to have no part in it. The waving of Irish flags the biggest thing that separates us from that freedom and is an easy fix.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Some of it smacks of bowing down to the horrible hun hordes.

"Oooh please don't be mad at us, we'll stop waving the tricolours, we promise."

Bootlickers.
It's about not being hypocrites when we criticise their red hand rubbish.

Ultimately, it's about what we can do as a fan base to help get rid of sectarianism. The impression i get is that some people quite like the retention of a wee bit of it, as it gives such games a bit of bite.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Some of it smacks of bowing down to the horrible hun hordes.

"Oooh please don't be mad at us, we'll stop waving the tricolours, we promise."

Bootlickers.

Good God

[NAE NOOKIE]

Using a non-offensive symbol in an offensive context makes it offensive. In the context of Scottish football the Irish Tricolor, just like the Union Flag, means one thing and one thing only - it's a symbol of religious and political sectarianism.

It's a sad state of affairs but those trying to pretend otherwise are just burying their heads in the sand and are complicit in the normalisation of this type of bigotry in Scotland. The Tricolor may have been a non-offensive symbol originally (and in some cases still is) but it wouldn't be the first time we've seen a non-offensive symbol hijacked by those desperate to turn it into a symbol of bigotry and hate. The swastika, for example, was historically a symbol of peace (and in some cases still is) but I doubt you'd be comfortable running around brandishing one and telling everyone who is offended by it that they are the real bigots, would you?


Could almost agree with some of this, but comparing the flag of the Irish Republic to the swastika is clearly losing the plot.

FFS …. My Wife Camille is probably the biggest **** stirrer on this forum, its never been lost on me that a lot of his posts are aimed at provoking a reaction and by and large I have little time for his nonsense, even though I sometimes find it funny. But I now find myself in the surprising position of having to come to his defence.

He was clearly not comparing the Tricolour to the Swastika in any negative sense whatsoever. What he was obviously doing was making the point that a good thing can be used for a bad purpose.

[Stokesy's on fire]

As i have already said, no.

Also, it's not about 'being upset', it's about asking whether it hrings something negative to the game.


To answer that question no it does not bring anything negative to the game. People hold up scarfs with the Hibs crest on it and face them in the direction of opposing fans that's how it goes. We get on with it and we do not try and shame those with the desire to fly the Tricolour or any other flag for that matter.

[The_Horde]

For generations 'winding up the other lot' has been a part of going to the football for young guys and girls. It's almost a rite of passage. Does waving an Ireland flag, Ulster banner, Palestine, Israel or Swaziland flag enrich the experience of football? Not for me personally but if the aim is to wind opposition fans up then it's effective; I daresay for some annoying 1 or 2 of your own is an added bonus as well. When all is said and done it's a bit fabric in different colours, as evidenced on Wednesday there are far worse things that could be going on. Are we really at the stage where we are getting all worked up and angry about a Union flag or a Tricolour?

Part of me thinks there's a lot of rose tinted glasses being worn and the selective memory of middle age plus is coming to the fore. The 'it's getting worse' mentality of the last few days with all sorts or ludicrous suggestions about empty stadiums and the like is getting beyond a joke. The 'in my day we shared a nip out a half bottle and shook hands after the game' line of thinking is on a par with how every summer was scorching in the 70s and everyone was delighted with 5p and an apple at Christmas as they enjoyed a wholesome family singsong round the fire. Segregation was brought in for a reason and there have always been wind ups and unsavoury stuff at the football; in the day of social media, instant video uploads and smart phones it's just harder to get away with it now.

We need to deal with the serious stuff, treat violence as it deserves to be treated and tackle deep rooted hatred. I can't get to worked up about a lot of the other stuff that makes football what it is and gives it an edge; a few daft laddies waving flags about probably falls into the latter category.

Top post. The old "in my day" argument. Typically used by yer da and yer da's da. Rosy retrospection at its best.

[WhileTheChief..]

Can we all wave wee N Ireland flags on Saturday to show our support Neil? :greengrin

[Lancs Harp]

You cant beat a good old flag debate :greengrin

The issue as ever lies unresolved and my popcorn is now getting low.

Time to move on and think about the weekend? Just a suggestion :wink:

[NAE NOOKIE]

You cant beat a good old flag debate :greengrin

The issue as ever lies unresolved and my popcorn is now getting low.

Time to move on and think about the weekend? Just a suggestion :wink:

See Lancs Harp's thread … 'Standing in the path of the whirlwind' ……….. the very definition of 'something for the weekend' :greengrin

Oops …. just realised you are Lancs Harp :faf:

[Lancs Harp]

See Lancs Harp's thread … 'Standing in the path of the whirlwind' ……….. the very definition of 'something for the weekend' :greengrin

I never read his stuff mate the lads an idiot. :greengrin

[NAE NOOKIE]

I never read his stuff mate the lads an idiot. :greengrin

Beat me to my edit :greengrin

[My_Wife_Camille]

FFS …. My Wife Camille is probably the biggest **** stirrer on this forum, its never been lost on me that a lot of his posts are aimed at provoking a reaction and by and large I have little time for his nonsense, even though I sometimes find it funny. But I now find myself in the surprising position of having to come to his defence.

He was clearly not comparing the Tricolour to the Swastika in any negative sense whatsoever. What he was obviously doing was making the point that a good thing can be used for a bad purpose.
er... thanks:cb

[NAE NOOKIE]

er... thanks:cb

Nae bother ya radge :greengrin

[AgentDaleCooper]

Can we all wave wee N Ireland flags on Saturday to show our support Neil? :greengrin

Genuinely think that would ne a great idea, as it subverts the bigotry :aok:

[kenja]

FFS …. My Wife Camille is probably the biggest **** stirrer on this forum, its never been lost on me that a lot of his posts are aimed at provoking a reaction and by and large I have little time for his nonsense, even though I sometimes find it funny. But I now find myself in the surprising position of having to come to his defence.

He was clearly not comparing the Tricolour to the Swastika in any negative sense whatsoever. What he was obviously doing was making the point that a good thing can be used for a bad purpose.I understood the sentiment. The comparison of the implications of brandishing these symbols is invalid though. One is a symbol of facism the other a symbol of fighting imperialism and oppression. Quite opposite causes. Saying that, using political symbols to provoke opponents seems a bit unnecessary in this day and age.

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[DH1875]

First ever Hibs flag I bought was the Erin go bragh one. That was over 20 years ago and I still think its a thing of beauty. To suggest getting rid of it is madness IMO. Our club badge has the harp in it ffs. Ban the flag then you ban the badge and that ain't happening. Although we did have a different badge when I bought the flag all those years ago so who knows.
Tricolour, I don't really care and couldn't give a toss if I never see one ever again but.....how can you ban a flag of a country? Surely if you ban it you have to ban all flags. Take the Polish flag for example. Nowt to do with Hibs but is seen at ER. We saying that they can bring their flag, Albanians can bring their flag, you can bring a Honduran, French, Moroccan, Trinidad, Ecuadorian flag. We can have union jack flags, infact, you bring any countries flag that you want as long as its not the Irish flag as it might upset some wee hearts fan. I genuinely can't see how you'd possibly get away with banking it.

Also, for what its worth. I've seen the tricolour at other games, not just those involving rangers or hearts so don't know why folk are saying we only have them then.

[CMurdoch]

Some of it smacks of bowing down to the horrible hun hordes.

"Oooh please don't be mad at us, we'll stop waving the tricolours, we promise."

Bootlickers.

I'm afraid you are part of the problem and no different to those of a similar mind at Hearts, Celtic and Rangers.

[Diclonius]

I was sat directly in front of the flag nonsense on Wednesday so have a full account of it (see my updates on the match thread). Here's what transpired.



A guy comes to the front of the barrier, produces a tricolour, aims it in the exact direction of the Hearts kids in the Wheatfield and procees to shout obscenities at them. This is a good 15-20 minutes before the game begins.
He leaves after a while, but decided nope, that wasn't enough, and comes back for a bit more, this time with two mates. They proceed to shout more abuse at the kids across from them who have now produced a Loyalist flag.
The abuse seems to get a bit louder and more heated, this guy is clearly getting very angry and finally decides to play his trump card, the one that'll win him the argument - a second tricolour. This time the steward has clearly had enough and tells him and his pals to sit down. After this all the smoke bomb and fans running on to the pitch nonsense starts.



Please tell me how this adds anything to the game, or acknowledges our "Irish heritage" or anything like that. These guys (or others like them) ALWAYS turn up at Tynecastle with their tricolour and the only thing they do with it is wave it at the Hearts fans. They don't care about the build up to the game - they are solely concerned with screaming obscenities at kids they have arbitrarily defined to be "the enemy" and care about nothing else but. They have decided that an Irish tricolour will wind them up the most and are using it for that purpose.

I haven't seen them at any other away game and if they are there they certainly don't bring the tricolour - I guess if you're not playing a team of which part of the support (who are also idiots) nominally identifies as unionist then it doesn't matter? Wow, they must value their Irish heritage immensely if they aren't bothered to bring it when they think it won't wind up someone. I have nothing wrong with tricolours at Easter Road if they acknowledge our heritage - see the flag we used to have in the west which was the tricolour, saltire and Hibs saltire stitched together. What I oppose is people who clearly want us to be the Edinburgh Celtic who use another country's flag as a vehicle to wind up people they have never met.

[SideBurns]

If fans stop flying tricolours or harp flags simply because they offend the Huns or bigoted elements of the Hearts support, where does it end? Logically, our club colours, badge, and name should be equally offensive to those who hate the Irish for their own deeply imbedded, ludicrous, sectarian reasons. They'll always hate Hibs.

As long as the Hibs support refrains from singing rebel songs, and concentrates on supporting the team, there should be no problem whatsoever. From what I can gather, the main objections to Irish flags seems to be that they inflame sectarian attitudes amongst our rivals - but to stop flying them on those grounds is to kowtow to bigots. And then they have won.

[Johnny Clash]

‘However, Irish influence stopped a long long long time ago..... The flag wavers are keeping us tethered to this baggage.’

The influence of the progressive thinking founders of our club is our history - it never stopped a long time ago. I also think that you are very wrong to refer to our heritage as ‘baggage’.

[AgentDaleCooper]

The influence of the progressive thinking founders of our club is our history - it never stopped a long time ago. I also think that you are very wrong to refer to our heritage as ‘baggage’.

That could have been lifted off kerrydsle street.

[CMurdoch]

The influence of the progressive thinking founders of our club is our history - it never stopped a long time ago. I also think that you are very wrong to refer to our heritage as ‘baggage’.

You are living in the past.

However, if someone from Ireland wants to invest loads of money in Hibs ala Man City, I would be happy to wave an Irish flag and have a massive **** off Harp statue erected at the back of the West Stand with the stadium renamed The Pogues Stadium and an Irish theme pub Behind The Goals :wink:.

As Janet Jackson said "What Have You Done For Me Lately"

Seriously, look at post number 134 above from Diclonius. This is generally what the Hibs Tricolour flag wavers are all about, nothing to do with respect for anything.

[AgentDaleCooper]

If fans stop flying tricolours or harp flags simply because they offend the Huns or bigoted elements of the Hearts support, where does it end? Logically, our club colours, badge, and name should be equally offensive to those who hate the Irish for their own deeply imbedded, ludicrous, sectarian reasons. They'll always hate Hibs.

As long as the Hibs support refrains from singing rebel songs, and concentrates on supporting the team, there should be no problem whatsoever. From what I can gather, the main objections to Irish flags seems to be that they inflame sectarian attitudes amongst our rivals - but to stop flying them on those grounds is to kowtow to bigots. And then they have won.
The objection is not to do with the reactions of opposition fans, it's to do with the intentions of our own fans.

I'm not saying stop because they don't like it.

[adhibs]

That could have been lifted off kerrydsle street.

Deary me. Having pride of our beginnings is unacceptable?

Vatican flag at the ready for tomorrow to support Neil.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Deary me. Having pride of our beginnings is unacceptable?

Vatican flag at the ready for tomorrow to support Neil.

No, but I think that people choose to show that pride when they want a reaction.

Vatican flag would be quite funny TBF - could do half and half with a red hand flag and see if it creates a worm-hole in spacetime.

[Bostonhibby]

If fans stop flying tricolours or harp flags simply because they offend the Huns or bigoted elements of the Hearts support, where does it end? Logically, our club colours, badge, and name should be equally offensive to those who hate the Irish for their own deeply imbedded, ludicrous, sectarian reasons. They'll always hate Hibs.

As long as the Hibs support refrains from singing rebel songs, and concentrates on supporting the team, there should be no problem whatsoever. From what I can gather, the main objections to Irish flags seems to be that they inflame sectarian attitudes amongst our rivals - but to stop flying them on those grounds is to kowtow to bigots. And then they have won.This is where I am, I really don't like the union Jack or the rather sinister red hand of ulster and I scratch my head at the point of some of the many flags and causes that pop up then disappear at Parkhead, but until the politicians actually do something about the bigger issues that often lie behind the waving the fans have been given free reign to do what they want, unless clubs rigidly implement a ban.



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[Brightside]

I hardly see these flags when we play St Johnstone etc...so the people taking them know exactly what they are up to. Its brainless nonsense.

[AgentDaleCooper]

I hardly see these flags when we play St Johnstone etc...so the people taking them know exactly what they are up to. Its brainless nonsense.

EXACTLY :aok:

[adhibs]

No, but I think that people choose to show that pride when they want a reaction.

Vatican flag would be quite funny TBF - could do half and half with a red hand flag and see if it creates a worm-hole in spacetime.

That's twice you've mentioned taking a red hand to the game. I know it's not physical, but massively hypocritical on a thread where you're pointing the finger at people using a flag to get a reaction. Completely outed yourself as a troll.

[AgentDaleCooper]

That's twice you've mentioned taking a red hand to the game. I know it's not physical, but massively hypocritical on a thread where you're pointing the finger at people using a flag to get a reaction. Completely outed yourself as a troll.

I was amused by the subversiveness of a red hand in the hibs end, which is quite different to bringing a flag to stoke sectarian tension. It's called irony :aok: No one is going to do it, because apart from anything else, they would get dogs abuse from our famously non sectarian supporters. And yes, that's sarcasm, but not trolling, i am making a point - thst this flag stuff has sectarian baggage that people are pretending doesn't.

[HibeeHibernian4]

I hardly see these flags when we play St Johnstone etc...so the people taking them know exactly what they are up to. Its brainless nonsense.

People generally don't take flags to the smaller games. My Erin go Bragh flag will be at Aberdeen away and I hope that won't be a problem with anybody, I just like to take it with me on some of the longer journeys and abroad. Certainly won't be using it as wind-up material towards the Sheep on the other side of the fence.

[Johnny Clash]

That could have been lifted off kerrydsle street.

That ridiculous comment just shows how blinkered you are.

[hibs#1]

I once bought an Erin Go Bragh flag outside Hampden when we played Dunfermline in a semi final. I thought it was smart and still do. Does that make me a wee fanny?

[Lancs Harp]

For the self proclaimed "inclusive Hibs" there isnt half an awful lot of polarised viewpoints on here.

Clearly a pretty split fanbase, sadly.

[AgentDaleCooper]

That ridiculous comment just shows how blinkered you are.

Blinkered to what?

I am stating something that i don't see as controversial - sectarianism is a major problem in scottish society, and everyone should be doing what they can to root it out. It fuels violence in football and people from all clubs involved in it to any degree need to do some actual reflecting, especially if they want to call out rangers and celtic without seeming hypocritical.

[AgentDaleCooper]

I once bought an Erin Go Bragh flag outside Hampden when we played Dunfermline in a semi final. I thought it was smart and still do. Does that make me a wee fanny?

Depends when and why you use it really.

[Hibrandenburg]

National flag = Good
National flag waved by twat = Bad

[maguire1875]

seriously. IMO, all of this needs to stop. i saw some gimp selling easter lilly badges on a hibs FB page recently FFS. The fact is, the tricolor didn't even exist what we were founded, and it has no part in our present. if we want to tell everyone else to start behaving, we need to get our house in order first.
:nlgwaErin go Bragh

[BullsCloseHibs]

Can I just add, there is nothing whatsoever sectarian about the Tri colour. It's a national flag.

[LancashireHibby]

Can I just add, there is nothing whatsoever sectarian about the Tri colour. It's a national flag.
As has been stated earlier in the thread, it isn’t the flag itself per se but more the manner in which it is displayed and the reasons for taking it along.

[bigwheel]

I've no problem with people bringing a tricolour to Hibs games - yet its not really about our heritage . People bring it along mainly to wind up the opposition. If it stays at that - it's just part of the tribalism of football supporters. Those who bring Union Jacks to Hearts games are doing the same - it reflects on them, no one else. Most will grow out of it. It makes me chuckle when I see or hear of 30/40+ year olds getting wound up about a flag....who cares. Our support shouldn't care either - its not really a big thing at our club.

[DH1875]

Can I just add, there is nothing whatsoever sectarian about the Tri colour. It's a national flag.

Exactly, you'll never be able to ban it. Even if you wanted to.

[HibeeHibernian4]

I've no problem with people bringing a tricolour to Hibs games - yet its not really about our heritage . People bring it along mainly to wind up the opposition. If it stays at that - it's just part of the tribalism of football supporters. Those who bring Union Jacks to Hearts games are doing the same - it reflects on them, no one else. Most will grow out of it. It makes me chuckle when I see or hear of 30/40+ year olds getting wound up about a flag....who cares. Our support shouldn't care either - its not really a big thing at our club.

The two are really very different. Union Jacks in Hearts colours? Absolutely fine, but they know full well that the traditional Union Jacks are going into Rangers territory, and they like it.

Hibs meanwhile? A club with Irish roots and every right to fly the tricolour. Essentially, if Celtic had never been formed and there was no club full of pretend Irish folk who ruthlessly exploit their history for cold, hard cash, not one of us would be uncomfortable with it. There’s just this worry we’ll be seen as a mini Celtic. We should not and must not abandon our history for fear of being viewed in that way.

[eastcoasthibby]

Why does there appear to be an escalation of this stuff with our fans now ? It feels like its folk trying to bring something to the fore thats nver really been a visible thing for us, the sectarian crap .! It needs to be left alone and miles away from our club, its not needed nor welcome, yes we have our club roots but no need introduce at.a time when.the.ub is going forward ...imho of course

[bigwheel]

The two are really very different. Union Jacks in Hearts colours? Absolutely fine, but they know full well that the traditional Union Jacks are going into Rangers territory, and they like it.

Hibs meanwhile? A club with Irish roots and every right to fly the tricolour. Essentially, if Celtic had never been formed and there was no club full of pretend Irish folk who ruthlessly exploit their history for cold, hard cash, not one of us would be uncomfortable with it. There’s just this worry we’ll be seen as a mini Celtic. We should not and must not abandon our history for fear of being viewed in that way.


Different generations of my family made the journey over from Ireland, lived in "Little Ireland" before and during the creation of our club...I'm a big supporter of our heritage - proud of it...Never would suggest we don't celebrate and respect it.

My point is though..most often those types of flags at games aren't about that - its often more to wind up the opponents than it is about heritage... my point of earlier still stands - adults getting wound up about flags makes me chuckle.

[Sir David Gray]

The two are really very different. Union Jacks in Hearts colours? Absolutely fine, but they know full well that the traditional Union Jacks are going into Rangers territory, and they like it.

Hibs meanwhile? A club with Irish roots and every right to fly the tricolour. Essentially, if Celtic had never been formed and there was no club full of pretend Irish folk who ruthlessly exploit their history for cold, hard cash, not one of us would be uncomfortable with it. There’s just this worry we’ll be seen as a mini Celtic. We should not and must not abandon our history for fear of being viewed in that way.

I'll ask the question again. If flying the Irish tricolour at games is about celebrating our roots (which I have no problem with by the way) why do we only see these flags at games against Rangers and Hearts? Why won't people want to celebrate our roots against St Johnstone today or next Friday against Aberdeen?

[Golden Bear]

Why does there appear to be an escalation of this stuff with our fans now ? It feels like its folk trying to bring something to the fore thats nver really been a visible thing for us, the sectarian crap .! It needs to be left alone and miles away from our club, its not needed nor welcome, yes we have our club roots but no need introduce at.a time when.the.ub is going forward ...imho of course

Very well said. I really can't be bothered with the religious/political overtones that have regrettably surfaced over the last few days. Hibs are a football team and the emphasis should always be on the words "football team."

[One Day Soon]

National flag = Good
National flag waved by twat = Bad

Best post on this thread.

[Eaststandee]

Do the tri-colours and Erin go bragh flags that appear at every trip to Hampden, including games against Ross County, Aberdeen, Dundee United etc. Not count? Or does that not suit that narrative of us being a sectarian football club?

It's as if some on here are trying to convince others that our club is actually like this, when it's not. Were the majority of these folk even at the derby? You would think our end was awash with tri-colours and republican songs, there was about 5 Ireland flags, as there usually always is. Just because Hearts are secterian doesn't make us the same.

Some people really have eaten up the media agenda for this game, and if you don't believe there is one just watch the Hyndman press conference.

[1van Sprou7e]

Do the tri-colours and Erin go bragh flags that appear at every trip to Hampden, including games against Ross County, Aberdeen, Dundee United etc. Not count? Or does that not suit that narrative of us being a sectarian football club?

It's as if some on here are trying to convince others that our club is actually like this, when it's not. Were the majority of these folk even at the derby? You would think our end was awash with tri-colours and republican songs, there was about 5 Ireland flags, as there usually always is. Just because Hearts are secterian doesn't make us the same.

Some people really have eaten up the media agenda for this game, and if you don't believe there is one just watch the Hyndman press conference.

What was said in the press conference

[My_Wife_Camille]

Do the tri-colours and Erin go bragh flags that appear at every trip to Hampden, including games against Ross County, Aberdeen, Dundee United etc. Not count? Or does that not suit that narrative of us being a sectarian football club?

It's as if some on here are trying to convince others that our club is actually like this, when it's not. Were the majority of these folk even at the derby? You would think our end was awash with tri-colours and republican songs, there was about 5 Ireland flags, as there usually always is. Just because Hearts are secterian doesn't make us the same.

Some people really have eaten up the media agenda for this game, and if you don't believe there is one just watch the Hyndman press conference.
Some interesting interpretations going on in this thread.

As someone who wants wants these flags out of Easter Road and out of the Hibs support, it is nothing to do with trying to push a narrative that we are a sectarian club. To be clear, Hibernian is not a sectarian club. That is the very reason why I don’t want wee fannys using our club as a platform to pedal their own sectarian attitudes.

Fair enough, some of these symbols are part of the clubs history but that is where they belong.

[Keith_M]

I'm taking my Sachsen flag, to mark my heritage... well, the Missus' heritage, but anyway.


I hope nobody objects ;-)




https://us.123rf.com/450wm/endhals/endhals1105/endhals110500319/9596311-sachsen-flag.jpg?ver=6

[Keith_M]

..or, as I used to live in Austria and my favourite part was Steiermark (Styria), I might take their flag.



https://node01.flagstat.net/media/image/2468r.jpg

If anybody doesn't like it, they can complain to Arnold Schwarzenegger

[The 90+2]

..or, as I used to live in Austria and my favourite part was Steiermark (Styria), I might take their flag.



https://node01.flagstat.net/media/image/2468r.jpg

If anybody doesn't like it, they can complain to Arnold Schwarzenegger

Tidy flag tbh. If you’re not taking it to wind up opposition support primarily I don’t see an objection.

[Keith_M]

Tidy flag tbh. If you’re not taking it to wind up opposition support primarily I don’t see an objection.


I actually have both flags, and I've taken the first one (Sachsen/Saxony) to a couple of games before. I actually can't see why anybody would be offended by them, as they're both just places I love that happen to have flags in Hibby colours.

My relatives think it's quite cool seeing their region's flag at a football match in a foreign country


I actually took the Sachsen flag to Ibrox once and the Neanderthals didn't know what to make of it. :greengrin

[blackpoolhibs]

For generations 'winding up the other lot' has been a part of going to the football for young guys and girls. It's almost a rite of passage. Does waving an Ireland flag, Ulster banner, Palestine, Israel or Swaziland flag enrich the experience of football? Not for me personally but if the aim is to wind opposition fans up then it's effective; I daresay for some annoying 1 or 2 of your own is an added bonus as well. When all is said and done it's a bit fabric in different colours, as evidenced on Wednesday there are far worse things that could be going on. Are we really at the stage where we are getting all worked up and angry about a Union flag or a Tricolour?

Part of me thinks there's a lot of rose tinted glasses being worn and the selective memory of middle age plus is coming to the fore. The 'it's getting worse' mentality of the last few days with all sorts or ludicrous suggestions about empty stadiums and the like is getting beyond a joke. The 'in my day we shared a nip out a half bottle and shook hands after the game' line of thinking is on a par with how every summer was scorching in the 70s and everyone was delighted with 5p and an apple at Christmas as they enjoyed a wholesome family singsong round the fire. Segregation was brought in for a reason and there have always been wind ups and unsavoury stuff at the football; in the day of social media, instant video uploads and smart phones it's just harder to get away with it now.

We need to deal with the serious stuff, treat violence as it deserves to be treated and tackle deep rooted hatred. I can't get to worked up about a lot of the other stuff that makes football what it is and gives it an edge; a few daft laddies waving flags about probably falls into the latter category.

Good post, i grew up in the late 60s and early 70s watching Hibs play to some huge crowds, with a line of 10 policemen separating thousands of fans with a 2 yard no go area.

Scuffles and full blown fights would regularly break out, cans and bottles would fly over the divide both ways, and the streets were sometimes like a battle zone afterwards with both sets going down the same streets together.

What we get these days is a picnic compared to then, and while its still wrong, i wonder what it would have been like if we had social media then?

The laws are in place to sort everything that is wrong with football, there is just no appetite to get rid of what we all know causes most of its problems.

[Canon Hannan]

**** me, what an uttery pathetic post. Completely twisting what someone else is saying.

I think he has a very valid point. No twisting at all. Purely pointing to the fact that some Irish catholic intolerance is in our own support. It’s very sad to hear. I love the Erin Go Bragh flag as its out first ever motto. If anyone doesn’t like that then THEY are anti Hibernian Foorball Club. Showing no respect for many of the supporters and our founders.

[DH1875]

I'll ask the question again. If flying the Irish tricolour at games is about celebrating our roots (which I have no problem with by the way) why do we only see these flags at games against Rangers and Hearts? Why won't people want to celebrate our roots against St Johnstone today or next Friday against Aberdeen?


That's simply not true though. You sometimes do see them at other games. I've seen them :confused:

[AgentDaleCooper]

That's simply not true though. You sometimes do see them at other games. I've seen them :confused:

Rarely in small games, always against hearts and especially rangers.

[BullsCloseHibs]

Rarely in small games, always against hearts and especially rangers.

Because its about our passion. Just like them.

[Silky]

Because its about our passion. Just like them.

Are we not passionate in every game? We should be. So why, then, do these flags not get an airing every week??

[Keith_M]

Are we not passionate in every game? We should be. So why, then, do these flags not get an airing every week??


Because the majority of them only appear as a method to wind up the opposition, and to show which side of the religio/political divide they want to portray themselves.

I didn't see many when we played St Mirren, Aberdeen or Hamilton recently......I wonder why :hmmm:

[The 90+2]

I actually have both flags, and I've taken the first one (Sachsen/Saxony) to a couple of games before. I actually can't see why anybody would be offended by them, as they're both just places I love that happen to have flags in Hibby colours.

My relatives think it's quite cool seeing their region's flag at a football match in a foreign country


I actually took the Sachsen flag to Ibrox once and the Neanderthals didn't know what to make of it. :greengrin

Class. 😂 I bet you called a couple of anti catholic names because of it though. It could have been in tribute of that Austrian guy (Sebbo??) they had they would never have know.

[The 90+2]

Because the majority of them only appear as a method to wind up the opposition, and to show which side of the religio/political divide they want to portray themselves.

I didn't see many when we played St Mirren, Aberdeen or Hamilton recently......I wonder why :hmmm:


Yep, can’t see many in the east today towards the Saints fans. Funny that.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Was also wondering why the club shop don't sell tricolors and erin gu bragh flags...it's almost as though they have negative associations that the club would rather not be a part of...?

[Elephant Stone]

Was also wondering why the club shop don't sell tricolors and erin gu bragh flags...it's almost as though they have negative associations that the club would rather not be a part of...?

They don't sell Scotland flags either.

[CMurdoch]

No sign of our plastic paddy's waving their flags at Easter Road today.
The no show of these self appointed protectors and reflectors of our clubs history let down our clubs founding fathers and I blame them for today's defeat. :wink:

[GORDONSMITH7]

I honestly don't care that it was mate. The vast majority of Hibs fans these days are about as Irish as Haggis and the ones that aren't Scottish are probably more likely to be English than Irish … our most famous and lauded fan of recent years was from Belize, God rest him.

If when Hibs reach their 150th anniversary the club release a commemorative strip with a Harp on it and 'Erin go bragh' written underneath I will probably buy it … that's a respectful and appropriate nod to the clubs original founders. But all other fans see when Hibs fans wave tricolours and Erin go bragh flags on the terraces now is a club who after 140 years are seemingly unprepared to acknowledge the country they should be supporting and representative of …. IE Scotland.

As I alluded to in my original post …. It may well be right in an ideal world to expect folk to be able to wave whatever symbols they want with no reaction and no consequences … but we don't live in an ideal world, and for so long as the tricolour or Erin go bragh flags are part of a sectarian problem and give fans of other clubs an excuse to react in kind with all of the accompanying bile and hatred that goes with it I would rather not see these things part of our modern fan culture.

I take it that you never bought the great 1875 style top with gold harp on it that Hibernian FC brought out in 2015 to commemorate the clubs 140th anniversary?
It was a great success and sold out.

BIG G

[Nakedmanoncrack]

Was also wondering why the club shop don't sell tricolors and erin gu bragh flags...it's almost as though they have negative associations that the club would rather not be a part of...?

Only to bigots (don't personally own a tricolour myself).

[SideBurns]

No sign of our plastic paddy's waving their flags at Easter Road today.
The no show of these self appointed protectors and reflectors of our clubs history let down our clubs founding fathers and I blame them for today's defeat. :wink:

"plastic paddy's (sic)" - would you no' be more comfortable supporting a different team?

[broondog]

seriously. IMO, all of this needs to stop. i saw some gimp selling easter lilly badges on a hibs FB page recently FFS. The fact is, the tricolor didn't even exist what we were founded, and it has no part in our present. if we want to tell everyone else to start behaving, we need to get our house in order first.

Totally agree with you.the Irish stuff is very embarrassing and people need to stop behaving like a mini Celtic which is what it reeks off. Be careful who you say that too as I raised this on here after the old drummer (can’t remneber name Bouncer something) spewed sectarian bile for 90 minutes a few seasons back and when I told him to stop he threatened me and my 5 year old son then threatened me again on here with a private message . You won’t silence me or anyone else who wants to rid this from our club which has nothing to do with your embarrassing antics from Northern Ireland

[Canon Hannan]

Totally agree with you.the Irish stuff is very embarrassing and people need to stop behaving like a mini Celtic which is what it reeks off. Be careful who you say that too as I raised this on here after the old drummer (can’t remneber name Bouncer something) spewed sectarian bile for 90 minutes a few seasons back and when I told him to stop he threatened me and my 5 year old son then threatened me again on here with a private message . You won’t silence me or anyone else who wants to rid this from our club which has nothing to do with your embarrassing antics from Northern Ireland

You are acting like a mini Rangers fan with these anti Hibernian comments. You are insulting thousands of Hibernian fans. Do you realise that? There are probably Hearts supporters more accepting to our history and name than yourself. We wear green, harp on our strip and are called Hibernian (Ireland). We have St Pats Supporters Club and are entrenched ina beautiful history. Show some respect ffs.

[AgentDaleCooper]

You are acting like a mini Rangers fan with these anti Hibernian comments. You are insulting thousands of Hibernian fans. Do you realise that? There are probably Hearts supporters more accepting to our history and name than yourself. We wear green, harp on our strip and are called Hibernian (Ireland). We have St Pats Supporters Club and are entrenched ina beautiful history. Show some respect ffs.

i think the guy is entitled to have a bit of a reaction if he's been threatened a couple of times when challenging people on sectarianism. he's not acting like a mini-rangers fan. likewise, as you said, you come from an irish background so it makes a lot of sense that you are attached to the history of the club - i don't see this as a bad thing, i just think that some people misappropriate it, and that this contributes to scotland's problem of sectarianism. it also makes us look like hypocrites when complaining about other clubs and their sectarianism - whether they are worse than us or not.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Only to bigots (don't personally own a tricolour myself).

this is similar to the 'i don't see colour' argument against the existence of racism in america

(n.b. - similar in structure, not in content, not calling you a racist on any level, just pointing out the dynamic!!!)

[SRHibs]

99% of the people I see with tricolours at the games are absolute bams. Hardly a coincidence. I actually think it’s disrespectful to our club and its roots to fly the tricolour solely to antagonise opposition supporters. Each to their own though.

[CMurdoch]

"plastic paddy's (sic)" - would you no' be more comfortable supporting a different team?

Sorry, I shouldn't have used PP.
However, if a Hibs 'fan' flies a tricolour solely to antagonise opposition supporters it is desecrating our clubs roots and history and they would enjoy supporting Celtic more. A club followed by tens of thousands of Scottish people pretending to be Irish every week.

[Flanny boy]

You are acting like a mini Rangers fan with these anti Hibernian comments. You are insulting thousands of Hibernian fans. Do you realise that? There are probably Hearts supporters more accepting to our history and name than yourself. We wear green, harp on our strip and are called Hibernian (Ireland). We have St Pats Supporters Club and are entrenched ina beautiful history. Show some respect ffs.very well said friend we should be and are proud of our precious and important history

[Smartie]

I've heard the phrase "plastic paddy" used most often as a derogatory term by real Irish people to describe people who think they are (or want to be) Irish but in spite of everything they are not - sometimes describing Americans, sometimes describing Scots.

I'm not sure who exactly should be taking offence to it.

[CMurdoch]

I've heard the phrase "plastic paddy" used most often as a derogatory term by real Irish people to describe people who think they are (or want to be) Irish but in spite of everything they are not - sometimes describing Americans, sometimes describing Scots.

I'm not sure who exactly should be taking offence to it.

That was my understanding of the phrase. After SideBurns pulled me up on it I googled it and there are non PC aspects to it.
I have therefore apologised to SideBurns for using it.

[nic81]

Could have swore my custom tricolour/st andrews flag was on show in the east yesterday.Must have imagined that


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[CMurdoch]

Could have swore my custom tricolour/st andrews flag was on show in the east yesterday.Must have imagined that


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What Section?
Probably hidden by aw the folk standin' in 43 :wink:

[nic81]

What Section?
Probably hidden by aw the folk standin' in 43 :wink:

Mibbe[emoji23] will be at every home game from now on unless I’m not there[emoji2528]🇳[emoji1111]🇪


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[nic81]

What Section?
Probably hidden by aw the folk standin' in 43 :wink:

Sec 38


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[Johnny Clash]

Just wondering if those who are getting all upset about flags that pay homage to our history also object to the St Patrick’s branch banner/flag that usually comes at half time in the East? It’s a replica of the flag first flown over our stadium.

[SideBurns]

Sorry, I shouldn't have used PP.
However, if a Hibs 'fan' flies a tricolour solely to antagonise opposition supporters it is desecrating our clubs roots and history and they would enjoy supporting Celtic more. A club followed by tens of thousands of Scottish people pretending to be Irish every week.

Fair enough CM, missed your reply yesterday. Decided to stay off the forum yesterday to give myself a break after Saturday!

[Bostonhibby]

Just wondering if those who are getting all upset about flags that pay homage to our history also object to the St Patrick’s branch banner/flag that usually comes at half time in the East? It’s a replica of the flag first flown over our stadium.It's all about the intent for me and if the sole point of taking a flag to a game is to say look at me I'm of a certain religion or I've jumped on a certain bandwagon and am here to goad others who aren't by waving the flag then I don't see the point.

As an atheist who is a proud St Pat's branch member I know that's not what the flag or the branch is about and it's always great to see it.

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[andyf5]

You are acting like a mini Rangers fan with these anti Hibernian comments. You are insulting thousands of Hibernian fans. Do you realise that? There are probably Hearts supporters more accepting to our history and name than yourself. We wear green, harp on our strip and are called Hibernian (Ireland). We have St Pats Supporters Club and are entrenched ina beautiful history. Show some respect ffs.

He has not insulted me. I understand the history of our club but have no wish to have perceived and actual sectarian paraphernalia associated with Hibs.

[CMurdoch]

Sec 38


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I will look out for it at the next match

[Lendo]

I think he has a very valid point. No twisting at all. Purely pointing to the fact that some Irish catholic intolerance is in our own support. It’s very sad to hear. I love the Erin Go Bragh flag as its out first ever motto. If anyone doesn’t like that then THEY are anti Hibernian Foorball Club. Showing no respect for many of the supporters and our founders.

Is not the same argument used by the Poppy Brigade? 'If you don't wear one you are automatically against the troops and the fallen'

[AgentDaleCooper]

quick question to those saying flag waving is a celebration of our history - do you think people who had no other connection to the flag other than supporting the club would be waving it if the history wasn't so steeped in bloodshed and conflict? my point being, this is generally what makes history 'interesting' to people - it's about picking a side rather than looking at an overarching issue that has ruined lives on both sides.

[hibbyfraelibby]

IIRC Tom Hart and Kenny Waugh had a no Tricolour policy back in the day. That didn't stop trouble vs the huns and hertz diet element. In fact those decades were the worst for trouble.

Our name and colours are sufficient to brand us "fenian bs" among those with that mindset.I know DUFC guys who say the huns still regard them as that and they did change their name and colours nearly 100 years ago !

The real issue is a ned element who is attaching itself to our club and a developing culture of missile throwing. A flag debate wont solve that. That will be solved by identifying and banning the culprits together with a tangible and pro-active police presence in stadiums.

If I remember correctly the Hibernian board voted to stop flying the tricolour at Easter Road in 1948 when Eire decided to leave the Commonwealth

[Brizo]

If I remember correctly the Hibetnian board voted to stop flying the tricolour at Easter Road in 1948 when Eire decided to leave the Commonwealth

I don't believe we ever flew the Tricolour.

I don't know if you are getting mixed up with the fact that we changed our crest after WW2 ? But certainly no Tricolour ever flown over ER (if a club historian knows better interested to know)

AFAIK the only club that flew the Tricolour was Celtc and they came under pressure to remove it in the post war period but that's a whole different topic / thread / can of worms

[Johnny Clash]

quick question to those saying flag waving is a celebration of our history - do you think people who had no other connection to the flag other than supporting the club would be waving it if the history wasn't so steeped in bloodshed and conflict? my point being, this is generally what makes history 'interesting' to people - it's about picking a side rather than looking at an overarching issue that has ruined lives on both sides.

Think you’re confused mate. The history of our club doesn’t involve any of those things. We were set up by Irish immigrants and the Hibernian philosophy was to raise money through playing fitbaw’ to try help alleviate some of the awful poverty in the community. We then spread that idea to over 100 clubs in Scotland - some went on to become household names. So yes, like myself, plenty hibees are proud of our heritage without necessarily having any connections with Ireland. The ‘side we picked’ is Hibs and I really have no idea why you’re so obsessed with trying to tarnish our history. A history that you clearly know very little about.

[WhileTheChief..]

Can’t say I’m bothered about how or why we formed or any of that early history. Pretty much means nothing to me.

Also not bothered what flags any of you decide to take to ER, I always thought waving flags at the football was for kids anyways, kinda like being a mascot.

[Lancs Harp]

Hearts hoisted the white flag at Celtic Park last weekend, i know that. :wink:

[AgentDaleCooper]

Think you’re confused mate. The history of our club doesn’t involve any of those things. We were set up by Irish immigrants and the Hibernian philosophy was to raise money through playing fitbaw’ to try help alleviate some of the awful poverty in the community. We then spread that idea to over 100 clubs in Scotland - some went on to become household names. So yes, like myself, plenty hibees are proud of our heritage without necessarily having any connections with Ireland. The ‘side we picked’ is Hibs and I really have no idea why you’re so obsessed with trying to tarnish our history. A history that you clearly know very little about.

do you bring flags to games?

the reason i ask is because i'm not talking about whether we have a history to be proud of, i'm talking about the motivation behind those who bring flags to games. i'm positing that those that do know less than nothing about history or anything like that, other than CATHOLIC Vs PROTESTANT, and they bring flags to wind up the opposition.

obviously not in all cases, but the majority.

you are correct that i don't know a great deal about our club's history, and there's been many posts on this and other threads that have educated me, and that i've found to be fascinating and enlightening - but none of them have addressed the above point, which i've been repeating over and over again. pretty much everyone who disagrees does so without addressing this point.

ultimately, my point is that we can't complain about sectarianism in other clubs unless we acknowledge its existence within our own, which it does when people fly flags to wind up other teams.

[Golden Bear]

Hibs Net is a dark place these days, time for a break methinks.

[Johnny Clash]

do you bring flags to games?
.

Yes actually I’ve taken a ‘London Hibs’ banner to a couple of times. I should warn you it does have a Harp on it ... but rest assured sectarianism or any form of bigitory is not tolerated. Fair play to you for saying you don’t know much about Hibs history before launching into your theories. Sounds like you’ll gain a lot once you do.

[Stonewall]

To get back on topic: no it’s never time for a flag debate.

depressing thread.

[heretoday]

Hearts hoisted the white flag at Celtic Park last weekend, i know that. :wink:

Tee hee!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

do you bring flags to games?

the reason i ask is because i'm not talking about whether we have a history to be proud of, i'm talking about the motivation behind those who bring flags to games. i'm positing that those that do know less than nothing about history or anything like that, other than CATHOLIC Vs PROTESTANT, and they bring flags to wind up the opposition.

obviously not in all cases, but the majority.

you are correct that i don't know a great deal about our club's history, and there's been many posts on this and other threads that have educated me, and that i've found to be fascinating and enlightening - but none of them have addressed the above point, which i've been repeating over and over again. pretty much everyone who disagrees does so without addressing this point.

ultimately, my point is that we can't complain about sectarianism in other clubs unless we acknowledge its existence within our own, which it does when people fly flags to wind up other teams.

I have a large flag, made up of four flags put together and one of them is an Ireland flag.

I dont take it to games because its a hassle, but it was on display when we beat killie in league cup final, and numerous other games that haven't involved the huns or hearts.

There are more irish flags at big games because there are moee flag at big games. I dont doubt that some of the more excitable, younger guys have an element of winding up to it, but thats like saying you should ban swearing because some people use bad words to offend.

Personally, my flag of choice would be a simple green flag with a proud, gold harp on it. That IS our crest in my opinion, and that it was ever changed was a shameful part of our history.

But i am proud of the history of our club, that you yourself say you dont know much about. Nobody will ever convince me that having something irish st a hibs game is something to be banned, anymore than a british pakistani muslim waving a pakisran flag would be offensive, or inciteful.

This is a pointless debate, and i feel that the club are quite happy with our current sense of identity. It seems to be those who feel they have something to be ashamed of that are challenging that consensus.

Edit - i realise that posting on a thread that i think is pointless is a tad ironic.

[Johnny Clash]

I have a large flag, made up of four flags put together and one of them is an Ireland flag.

I dont take it to games because its a hassle, but it was on display when we beat killie in league cup final, and numerous other games that haven't involved the huns or hearts.

There are more irish flags at big games because there are moee flag at big games. I dont doubt that some of the more excitable, younger guys have an element of winding up to it, but thats like saying you should ban swearing because some people use bad words to offend.

Personally, my flag of choice would be a simple green flag with a proud, gold harp on it. That IS our crest in my opinion, and that it was ever changed was a shameful part of our history.

But i am proud of the history of our club, that you yourself say you dont know much about. Nobody will ever convince me that having something irish st a hibs game is something to be banned, anymore than a british pakistani muslim waving a pakisran flag would be offensive, or inciteful.

This is a pointless debate, and i feel that the club are quite happy with our current sense of identity. It seems to be those who feel they have something to be ashamed of that are challenging that consensus.

Edit - i realise that posting on a thread that i think is pointless is a tad ironic.

To be fair, these type of threads and Hibs.net in general can help folk come to a better understanding and hopefully learn stuff. Not everyone is interested in the history of our club which is fair enough. I come from a family of miners and I was amazed to learn that Hibs played many fundraisers for striking miners and their families in the early days. I seem to remember Loanhead miners in particular benefited and they turned this solidarity around with a pit head collection for Hibs when the club was struggling.

I’d just say that those who do understand our heritage are surely entitled to pay homepage at any game they choose. As you say, bigger games atract more flags, banners and displays. Not only stuff that reflects our history but also reflects our wide fan base... flags like ‘New York Hibs’, ‘Benidorm Hibs’, ‘Russia Hibs’ , ‘London Hibs’. Sure they may not have been displayed on Saturday v St. Johnstone but so what?

[Lancs Harp]

To be fair, these type of threads and Hibs.net in general can help folk come to a better understanding and hopefully learn stuff. Not everyone is interested in the history of our club which is fair enough. I come from a family of miners and I was amazed to learn that Hibs played many fundraisers for striking miners and their families in the early days. I seem to remember Loanhead miners in particular benefited and they turned this solidarity around with a pit head collection for Hibs when the club was struggling.

I’d just say that those who do understand our heritage are surely entitled to pay homepage at any game they choose. As you say, bigger games atract more flags, banners and displays. Not only stuff that reflects our history but also reflects our wide fan base... flags like ‘New York Hibs’, ‘Benidorm Hibs’, ‘Russia Hibs’ , ‘London Hibs’. Sure they may not have been displayed on Saturday v St. Johnstone but so what?

Dundee Hibs flag for the forthcoming match against Dundee :greengrin:wink:

[superfurryhibby]

ultimately, my point is that we can't complain about sectarianism in other clubs unless we acknowledge its existence within our own, which it does when people fly flags to wind up other teams.

To a significant number of west of Scotland football fans our very name, colours and history is an affront. It winds them up, but that does not make it sectarian, does it?

A tricolour displayed at a club with our heritage isn’t inherently sectarian either, although those of a bigoted disposition will see it as a challenge. You have no idea as to the motivation of people, total guesswork to suit an agenda, which by your own admission, is actually poorly informed.

[WhileTheChief..]

You could always just not take your Irish flag to ER then there’s nothing to worry about!

Nobody will mind if it’s not there, it’s not as if the players are looking for flags to be inspired by!!

[AgentDaleCooper]

To a significant number of west of Scotland football fans our very name, colours and history is an affront. It winds them up, but that does not make it sectarian, does it?

A tricolour displayed at a club with our heritage isn’t inherently sectarian either, although those of a bigoted disposition will see it as a challenge. You have no idea as to the motivation of people, total guesswork to suit an agenda, which by your own admission, is actually poorly informed.

our name doesn't have any immediate intentionality behind it, we don't have a name at people. it's not about whether people get wound up or not, it's about some of our fans intending to wind them up.

so, to clarify, you don't think that the majority of tricolors that appear at games are brought by bams looking to wind up the opposition?

or do you think that since motivations of others can't be proved in this case, i the above issue shouldn't be considered at all?


i acknowledged that i'm not very informed about the history of the club, i mean i have a rough idea, but i think no less so than the overwhelming majority of people that go to games. i have absolutely no idea what you are talking about in terms of my 'agenda' - hibs history is not part of my agenda. people turning up to games looking to use sectarianism as a means of winding up the opposition is. i want sectarianism out of scottish football, and i think if we as a support turn a blind eye to it within our ranks, we are part of the problem.

if you think that the majority of people that bring tricolor flags to games know the history of the club as well as folk on this thread, and that is their reason for bringing it, then fine - it can't be proved either way. it is, however, conspicuous that said flags are more likely to appear against rangers and hearts, and not celtic. we'll see over the month of december, we've got all of them at home.


finally - i'm not advocating banning flags. i'm saying that there needs to be a discussion, and an element of self policing by hibs fans. i'm not saying that if you see a tricolor in the hibs end you should immediately march over, grab it and burn it. i'm just saying that if someone is waving it at the opposition fans whilst calling them orange b****** etc, it might be worth someone having a word with them.

as i have said a billion times, this is not about the flags, it's about how they are used and what their modern-day connotations are as a result.

FWIW, i think the harp flag looks awesome. it's a hibs badge, so it's a hibs flag IMO.

i just think we need to be willing to reflect a bit and take some responsibility if we want to point the finger at others and truly be part of the solution to scotland's sectarianism problem.

[The 90+2]

You could always just not take your Irish flag to ER then there’s nothing to worry about!

Nobody will mind if it’s not there, it’s not as if the players are looking for flags to be inspired by!!

If I was of Irish background and I seen a spotty wee virgin bring an tricolour into Tynie or Ibrox with the sole intention of winding their support up I would probs my be pissed off rather than watch proudly. I didn’t see many Scottish flags on show at their dump and we are a Scottish club last time I checked?

[AgentDaleCooper]

just for the record, by the way - my agenda is this:

one of my best pals, a jambo, got jumped and hospitalised by celtic fans after their game at murrayfield. combined with that, there's the stories about the lady getting a bottle thrown in her face, and stories of the last derby being generally quite volatile with quite a few incidents, leading lennon to speak out.

IMO, there is far too much finger pointing on here and not enough reflection of what we actually contribute to the problem. pretending that we are immune to a problem makes us a part of it. this is why i felt that this discussion is necessary and actually positive, but too many people IMO are seeing it as an attack on our history, which it absolutely isn't. it's an attack on morons who treat big games as an excuse to become super-morons.

i'm also frustrated, however, because i think some people are being very naive about what motivates someone to bring a flag to a game.

football is oppositional by nature, but this has to be done in the right way, or it can quite easily spill over into something horrible, which seems to be the direction in which things are moving.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

just for the record, by the way - my agenda is this:

one of my best pals, a jambo, got jumped and hospitalised by celtic fans after their game at murrayfield. combined with that, there's the stories about the lady getting a bottle thrown in her face, and stories of the last derby being generally quite volatile with quite a few incidents, leading lennon to speak out.

IMO, there is far too much finger pointing on here and not enough reflection of what we actually contribute to the problem. pretending that we are immune to a problem makes us a part of it. this is why i felt that this discussion is necessary and actually positive, but too many people IMO are seeing it as an attack on our history, which it absolutely isn't. it's an attack on morons who treat big games as an excuse to become super-morons.

i'm also frustrated, however, because i think some people are being very naive about what motivates someone to bring a flag to a game.

football is oppositional by nature, but this has to be done in the right way, or it can quite easily spill over into something horrible, which seems to be the direction in which things are moving.

I think you make some valid points.

But conflating waving an irish flag with tye secrariansim problem in scotland, which in reality is anti irish catholic problem, is like accusing a pakistani of flaunting his brown skin in a racists face to provoke them.

If someone starts foaming at the mouth due to an irish flag, then ir is they who have tye problem, regardless of the intentions behind it.

Likewise anyone foaming at the mouth over a UJ flag.

Objecting to abuse and violence perpetrated against catholics and percieved catholic teams, is a different matter altogether.

[AgentDaleCooper]

I think you make some valid points.

But conflating waving an irish flag with tye secrariansim problem in scotland, which in reality is anti irish catholic problem, is like accusing a pakistani of flaunting his brown skin in a racists face to provoke them.

If someone starts foaming at the mouth due to an irish flag, then ir is they who have tye problem, regardless of the intentions behind it.

Likewise anyone foaming at the mouth over a UJ flag.

Objecting to abuse and violence perpetrated against catholics and percieved catholic teams, is a different matter altogether.

firstly, i'm not conflating waving an irish flag with sectarianism - i'm not saying 'if you wave an irish flag, then you are necessarily doing it for sectarian reasons'

i am saying that i believe that in the majority of cases, the intention behind it is a wee bit naughty, and that the consequences of this are actually greater than we perceive - it makes us, or at least a section of our support, part of the problem, and weakens our voice in the fight against sectarianism. further more, by saying that these people are doing nothing wrong, many on here are adding to the problem - normalizing/legitimizing sectarian-motivated behaviour, no matter how ill-informed that behaviour is of what it means and what its consequences are.

if someone waves any flag just to get a rise out of anyone, then whether they get that rise or not, they are part of the problem - they are stirring things up, and in doing so, disrespecting the history of that flag, of the club, and of anyone who has been affected by sectarian violence.

comparing this to skin colour is utterly absurd - you don't choose your skin colour, so you can hardly have a skin colour in a deliberately provocative way?!

also - it's not just anti-irish bigotry, lennon said himself that there are people at rangers that have a rotten time of it as well, and there are places in glasgow where if you were to walk through with a rangers top on you would be at great risk. the example that motivated me in all of this is a hearts fan getting jumped by celtic fans. to say that sectarianism has nothing to do with this is just mental. it might not be what caused the attack, but it's a highly aggravating factor in the general atmosphere.

a more fitting example might be that if for some reason, two teams identified with the two sides of the american civil war. despite the vast majority of fans having nothing personally to do with the teams' respective histories, they brought flags to games. some - to be fair - do have ties to the histories, or have some special interest in them that they identify with in good, well informed faith. but some fans bring flags just to bam up the other fans, because this is their release, they see it as a legitimate way to experience some catharsis, give themselves a sense of belonging, maybe a sense of meaning - much like why people join gangs. this is obviously an aspect of following a football team, and it's obviously a lot healthier than joining a gang, but this mentality can spill over into football.

flags are a part of the paraphernalia of this, but i'm not saying that we should ban them - i'm saying i think that as a support, we need to self police to prevent things from escalating, and to cut out sectarianism, we need to acknowledge it in our own support. i might be completely wrong about this, but things don't seem to be going in a good direction to me, and it's easy to sleep walk into scenarios that become very ugly without anyone knowing exactly when it happened.

[Brizo]

our name doesn't have any immediate intentionality behind it.

If you don't think our name has any "intentionality" behind it then you really know the square root of hee haw about our history.

That name and our colours are sufficient for Rangers, the diet hun element at Hertz and maybe even wee elements of certain other supports to view us a "fenians".

As ive said on a previous post, when Tricolours were effectively banned by our Board at ER the Rangers and Hertz didn't moderate their behaviour. The hate songs came from their end just the same. The mentality of the Rangers support is that nearly 100 years after DUFC changed their name and colours Rangers fans still brand them as "fenians"

If you think Hibs fans not taking Tricolours to games would change the mindset and behaviour of the huns and diets Id be totally behind your wee crusade / campaign. History , which by your own admission you have little or no grasp of, shows that's not the case.

Taking your argument to its logical conclusion we should probably change our name and colours, as they are the only provocation that the huns and the Hertz diet element need when they play us.

[AgentDaleCooper]

If you don't think our name has any "intentionality" behind it then you really know the square root of hee haw about our history.

That name and our colours are sufficient for Rangers, the diet hun element at Hertz and maybe even wee elements of certain other supports to view us a "fenians".

As ive said on a previous post, when Tricolours were effectively banned by our Board at ER the Rangers and Hertz didn't moderate their behaviour. The hate songs came from their end just the same. The mentality of the Rangers support is that nearly 100 years after DUFC changed their name and colours Rangers fans still brand them as "fenians"

If you think Hibs fans not taking Tricolours to games would change the mindset and behaviour of the huns and diets Id be totally behind your wee crusade / campaign. History , which by your own admission you have little or no grasp of, shows that's not the case.

Taking your argument to its logical conclusion we should probably change our name and colours, as they are the only provocation that the huns and the Hertz diet element need when they play us.

well this will teach me to be honest about the limits of my knowledge in a debate. the fact is, no one has answered the points i have raised without changing my argument to something that it isn't (it's called the straw-man fallacy :aok: ).

i don't support a team called hibernian to wind anyone up. flags and names don't have intentionality, people do.

again, for the billionth time, i'm not saying we should ban bringing flags to games. i think that would achieve nothing.

i am saying that the majority of people who bring flags to games do so to wind up the opposition, and that we need to acknowledge this before we can point the finger at other teams. that doesn't mean we need to stop bringing flags to games.

as i have said over and over again, it isn't about the reaction of the other supporters that matters, it's the intention of those waving the flags at them. if that intention is to wind them up, 'enhance' the oppositional atmosphere, then they are part of the problem of sectarianism.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

well this will teach me to be honest about the limits of my knowledge in a debate. the fact is, no one has answered the points i have raised without changing my argument to something that it isn't (it's called the straw-man fallacy :aok: ).

i don't support a team called hibernian to wind anyone up. flags and names don't have intentionality, people do.

again, for the billionth time, i'm not saying we should ban bringing flags to games. i think that would achieve nothing.

i am saying that the majority of people who bring flags to games do so to wind up the opposition, and that we need to acknowledge this before we can point the finger at other teams. that doesn't mean we need to stop bringing flags to games.

as i have said over and over again, it isn't about the reaction of the other supporters that matters, it's the intention of those waving the flags at them. if that intention is to wind them up, 'enhance' the oppositional atmosphere, then they are part of the problem of sectarianism.

So, if i was a black man going about my business in southern US, and a group of KKK supporters went past singing some racist song, and i stood and made a black power salute, showing defiance and to 'wind them up', would i be part of the problem of racism?

What about a pakistani with a pakistani flag at a far right EDL rally? Part of the problem also?

Also i have a problem with your characterisation of winding up, or that winding up is part of the problem od sectarianism

All football fans wind each orher up. But a group of fans using part of their heritage as an up yours, act of defiance, 'were still here despire everything' and demonstration of otherness, then why is that a bad thing?

If one group hates another for existing, it is not the fault of that group if their symbols, songs or very existence winds them up.

It is the group dping the hating that has the problem.

[NAE NOOKIE]

I take it that you never bought the great 1875 style top with gold harp on it that Hibernian FC brought out in 2015 to commemorate the clubs 140th anniversary?
It was a great success and sold out.

BIG G

Well you take it wrong mate. I wore that top for the whole of the 15/16 season … including to the Scottish cup final … and played walking football in it last Thursday :na na:

[Hibrandenburg]

So, if i was a black man going about my business in southern US, and a group of KKK supporters went past singing some racist song, and i stood and made a black power salute, showing defiance and to 'wind them up', would i be part of the problem of racism?

What about a pakistani with a pakistani flag at a far right EDL rally? Part of the problem also?

Also i have a problem with your characterisation of winding up, or that winding up is part of the problem od sectarianism

All football fans wind each orher up. But a group of fans using part of their heritage as an up yours, act of defiance, 'were still here despire everything' and demonstration of otherness, then why is that a bad thing?

If one group hates another for existing, it is not the fault of that group if their symbols, songs or very existence winds them up.

It is the group dping the hating that has the problem.

I might be old fashioned but I thinks it's best to leave religion and politics out of football. National flags can be construed as being either political, religious or both. Sure, you can think of any number of reasons to bring a National flag of a country into a Scottish League game but let's not try and kid ourselves that it's anything other than political or religious ****aboutery.

[StevieC]

If someone starts foaming at the mouth due to an irish flag, then ir is they who have tye problem, regardless of the intentions behind it.
Likewise anyone foaming at the mouth over a UJ flag.

That is exactly what the the issue is with flags at football matches.

You get the situation where those that hate the UJ bring the tricolour to the game to wave it at the very people he hates (sectarian behaviour) and the act is reciprocated by the opposing fans (sectarian behaviour).

At the game last week I was standing chatting to my mate on the walkway close to the new stand .. Hibs fan walks up with a tricolour and starts waving it at Hearts idiots, blowing them kisses, blessing himself, shouting abuse, after a couple of minutes he heads over to the Wheatfield stand and repeats his actions.

This, IMO, is why the majority of these flags are brought to games. Nothing to do with anti-Irishness, or disrespecting our routes, to argue that there's no place for this at Easter Road.

[NAE NOOKIE]

I think he has a very valid point. No twisting at all. Purely pointing to the fact that some Irish catholic intolerance is in our own support. It’s very sad to hear. I love the Erin Go Bragh flag as its out first ever motto. If anyone doesn’t like that then THEY are anti Hibernian Foorball Club. Showing no respect for many of the supporters and our founders.

Is there 'some Irish Catholic intolerance' in the Hibs support? From my experience next to nobody ( if anybody ) in the Hibs support could give a rats arse what religion folk are, or what nationality they are either ….. and that 100% includes me.

I fail to see how some folk can read page after page in this thread and yet still fail to grasp what the crux of the matter is here. This is not about whether or not Hibs supporters are proud of the clubs history and heritage … I have yet to meet a Hibs supporter who has given the slightest hint that our founders or the country the came from is something they would rather not talk about, or that they were in the slightest bit embarrassed by it … not a single one.

The crux of this debate is the current apparent rise in sectarianism in Scottish football and what can be done to eradicate it. In that context, no matter how much right our supporters have to wave tricolours or flags with 'Ireland forever' on them, the question isn't 'do we have the right' …. the questions to consider are twofold:

1 …… Is the use of these flags by the Hibs support seen by the wider football community and folk in wider society as simply showing support or allegiance to one side of a sectarian divide? No matter how much we might protest about heritage and history the answer is yes.

2 ….. In the balance of things that might help to eradicate sectarianism from Scottish football, and hopefully society in general, could our insistence in flying the tricolour and Erin go bragh flags be seen as a positive or a negative? …. No matter how much we might protest about heritage and history the answer once again is a negative.

Would a move by the Hibs support to stop using the two flags in question make any difference when it comes to the behaviour of fans of The Rangers or the seemingly growing minority at Hearts who insist on waving union flags or King Billy banners and the like … the sad answer is 'probably not' But that isn't the whole picture … In my opinion if we were to make the first move we could at the very least say without fear of contradiction that we have fully eradicated any hint of sectarianism from our club and support, and just as importantly any false perception of it. It would also mean that nobody would have the slightest bit of ammunition to nay say that.

Where would that leave the sectarian idiots who still seem to be in charge at Ibrox or their disciples in Gorgie when they try to excuse their sectarian bigotry with their usual defence of whitabootery? ….. bloody well nowhere!!!

That's why I want to see Irish tricolours and Erin go bragh flags fall out of use amongst our support. I see it as part of a journey towards a greater good and it has nothing whatsoever to do with anti Irish or Catholic sentiment and absolutely nothing to do with any problems with the history and heritage of Hibernian football club or those who founded it …… A club I have actively supported for over 40 years as a walk up fan, season ticket holder, shareholder and now contributor to HSL.

I cant make my position any plainer than that ….. nor the fact that I ( and I'm sure the other folk on here and within the wider Hibs support who comments like yours are aimed at ) utterly resent any suggestion either directly or indirectly that we have a problem with the history of the club we CHOOSE to support, or ludicrous allegations of anti Irish Catholic bias.

[Blackfordhibby]

Is there 'some Irish Catholic intolerance' in the Hibs support? From my experience next to nobody ( if anybody ) in the Hibs support could give a rats arse what religion folk are, or what nationality they are either ….. and that 100% includes me.

I fail to see how some folk can read page after page in this thread and yet still fail to grasp what the crux of the matter is here. This is not about whether or not Hibs supporters are proud of the clubs history and heritage … I have yet to meet a Hibs supporter who has given the slightest hint that our founders or the country the came from is something they would rather not talk about, or that they were in the slightest bit embarrassed by it … not a single one.

The crux of this debate is the current apparent rise in sectarianism in Scottish football and what can be done to eradicate it. In that context, no matter how much right our supporters have to wave tricolours or flags with 'Ireland forever' on them, the question isn't 'do we have the right' …. the questions to consider are twofold:

1 …… Is the use of these flags by the Hibs support seen by the wider football community and folk in wider society as simply showing support or allegiance to one side of a sectarian divide? No matter how much we might protest about heritage and history the answer is yes.

2 ….. In the balance of things that might help to eradicate sectarianism from Scottish football, and hopefully society in general, could our insistence in flying the tricolour and Erin go bragh flags be seen as a positive or a negative? …. No matter how much we might protest about heritage and history the answer once again is a negative.

Would a move by the Hibs support to stop using the two flags in question make any difference when it comes to the behaviour of fans of The Rangers or the seemingly growing minority at Hearts who insist on waving union flags or King Billy banners and the like … the sad answer is 'probably not' But that isn't the whole picture … In my opinion if we were to make the first move we could at the very least say without fear of contradiction that we have fully eradicated any hint of sectarianism from our club and support, and just as importantly any false perception of it. It would also mean that nobody would have the slightest bit of ammunition to nay say that.

Where would that leave the sectarian idiots who still seem to be in charge at Ibrox or their disciples in Gorgie when they try to excuse their sectarian bigotry with their usual defence of whitabootery? ….. bloody well nowhere!!!

That's why I want to see Irish tricolours and Erin go bragh flags fall out of use amongst our support. I see it as part of a journey towards a greater good and it has nothing whatsoever to do with anti Irish or Catholic sentiment and absolutely nothing to do with any problems with the history and heritage of Hibernian football club or those who founded it …… A club I have actively supported for over 40 years as a walk up fan, season ticket holder, shareholder and now contributor to HSL.

I cant make my position any plainer than that ….. nor the fact that I ( and I'm sure the other folk on here and within the wider Hibs support who comments like yours are aimed at ) utterly resent any suggestion either directly or indirectly that we have a problem with the history of the club we CHOOSE to support, or ludicrous allegations of anti Irish Catholic bias.

Could not have put it any better. Has to be one of the best posts on the subject I have read for a long time.

I don't really care if Hibs came from Tipperary or Timbuktu I became a Hibs supporter because Easter Road is closer to Lochend Avenue, than any other ground. I am proud to support this club,and acknowledge it's beginnings. I'll leave tricolours to the inhabitants of Eire.

[The 90+2]

Is there 'some Irish Catholic intolerance' in the Hibs support? From my experience next to nobody ( if anybody ) in the Hibs support could give a rats arse what religion folk are, or what nationality they are either ….. and that 100% includes me.

I fail to see how some folk can read page after page in this thread and yet still fail to grasp what the crux of the matter is here. This is not about whether or not Hibs supporters are proud of the clubs history and heritage … I have yet to meet a Hibs supporter who has given the slightest hint that our founders or the country the came from is something they would rather not talk about, or that they were in the slightest bit embarrassed by it … not a single one.

The crux of this debate is the current apparent rise in sectarianism in Scottish football and what can be done to eradicate it. In that context, no matter how much right our supporters have to wave tricolours or flags with 'Ireland forever' on them, the question isn't 'do we have the right' …. the questions to consider are twofold:

1 …… Is the use of these flags by the Hibs support seen by the wider football community and folk in wider society as simply showing support or allegiance to one side of a sectarian divide? No matter how much we might protest about heritage and history the answer is yes.

2 ….. In the balance of things that might help to eradicate sectarianism from Scottish football, and hopefully society in general, could our insistence in flying the tricolour and Erin go bragh flags be seen as a positive or a negative? …. No matter how much we might protest about heritage and history the answer once again is a negative.

Would a move by the Hibs support to stop using the two flags in question make any difference when it comes to the behaviour of fans of The Rangers or the seemingly growing minority at Hearts who insist on waving union flags or King Billy banners and the like … the sad answer is 'probably not' But that isn't the whole picture … In my opinion if we were to make the first move we could at the very least say without fear of contradiction that we have fully eradicated any hint of sectarianism from our club and support, and just as importantly any false perception of it. It would also mean that nobody would have the slightest bit of ammunition to nay say that.

Where would that leave the sectarian idiots who still seem to be in charge at Ibrox or their disciples in Gorgie when they try to excuse their sectarian bigotry with their usual defence of whitabootery? ….. bloody well nowhere!!!

That's why I want to see Irish tricolours and Erin go bragh flags fall out of use amongst our support. I see it as part of a journey towards a greater good and it has nothing whatsoever to do with anti Irish or Catholic sentiment and absolutely nothing to do with any problems with the history and heritage of Hibernian football club or those who founded it …… A club I have actively supported for over 40 years as a walk up fan, season ticket holder, shareholder and now contributor to HSL.

I cant make my position any plainer than that ….. nor the fact that I ( and I'm sure the other folk on here and within the wider Hibs support who comments like yours are aimed at ) utterly resent any suggestion either directly or indirectly that we have a problem with the history of the club we CHOOSE to support, or ludicrous allegations of anti Irish Catholic bias.

Absolute perfect and you speak for me. Brining religion into football this day and age is tragic. Keep it away from our home.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Is there 'some Irish Catholic intolerance' in the Hibs support? From my experience next to nobody ( if anybody ) in the Hibs support could give a rats arse what religion folk are, or what nationality they are either ….. and that 100% includes me.

I fail to see how some folk can read page after page in this thread and yet still fail to grasp what the crux of the matter is here. This is not about whether or not Hibs supporters are proud of the clubs history and heritage … I have yet to meet a Hibs supporter who has given the slightest hint that our founders or the country the came from is something they would rather not talk about, or that they were in the slightest bit embarrassed by it … not a single one.

The crux of this debate is the current apparent rise in sectarianism in Scottish football and what can be done to eradicate it. In that context, no matter how much right our supporters have to wave tricolours or flags with 'Ireland forever' on them, the question isn't 'do we have the right' …. the questions to consider are twofold:

1 …… Is the use of these flags by the Hibs support seen by the wider football community and folk in wider society as simply showing support or allegiance to one side of a sectarian divide? No matter how much we might protest about heritage and history the answer is yes.

2 ….. In the balance of things that might help to eradicate sectarianism from Scottish football, and hopefully society in general, could our insistence in flying the tricolour and Erin go bragh flags be seen as a positive or a negative? …. No matter how much we might protest about heritage and history the answer once again is a negative.

Would a move by the Hibs support to stop using the two flags in question make any difference when it comes to the behaviour of fans of The Rangers or the seemingly growing minority at Hearts who insist on waving union flags or King Billy banners and the like … the sad answer is 'probably not' But that isn't the whole picture … In my opinion if we were to make the first move we could at the very least say without fear of contradiction that we have fully eradicated any hint of sectarianism from our club and support, and just as importantly any false perception of it. It would also mean that nobody would have the slightest bit of ammunition to nay say that.

Where would that leave the sectarian idiots who still seem to be in charge at Ibrox or their disciples in Gorgie when they try to excuse their sectarian bigotry with their usual defence of whitabootery? ….. bloody well nowhere!!!

That's why I want to see Irish tricolours and Erin go bragh flags fall out of use amongst our support. I see it as part of a journey towards a greater good and it has nothing whatsoever to do with anti Irish or Catholic sentiment and absolutely nothing to do with any problems with the history and heritage of Hibernian football club or those who founded it …… A club I have actively supported for over 40 years as a walk up fan, season ticket holder, shareholder and now contributor to HSL.

I cant make my position any plainer than that ….. nor the fact that I ( and I'm sure the other folk on here and within the wider Hibs support who comments like yours are aimed at ) utterly resent any suggestion either directly or indirectly that we have a problem with the history of the club we CHOOSE to support, or ludicrous allegations of anti Irish Catholic bias.
Perfect post :aok:

[Hibrandenburg]

Is there 'some Irish Catholic intolerance' in the Hibs support? From my experience next to nobody ( if anybody ) in the Hibs support could give a rats arse what religion folk are, or what nationality they are either ….. and that 100% includes me.

I fail to see how some folk can read page after page in this thread and yet still fail to grasp what the crux of the matter is here. This is not about whether or not Hibs supporters are proud of the clubs history and heritage … I have yet to meet a Hibs supporter who has given the slightest hint that our founders or the country the came from is something they would rather not talk about, or that they were in the slightest bit embarrassed by it … not a single one.

The crux of this debate is the current apparent rise in sectarianism in Scottish football and what can be done to eradicate it. In that context, no matter how much right our supporters have to wave tricolours or flags with 'Ireland forever' on them, the question isn't 'do we have the right' …. the questions to consider are twofold:

1 …… Is the use of these flags by the Hibs support seen by the wider football community and folk in wider society as simply showing support or allegiance to one side of a sectarian divide? No matter how much we might protest about heritage and history the answer is yes.

2 ….. In the balance of things that might help to eradicate sectarianism from Scottish football, and hopefully society in general, could our insistence in flying the tricolour and Erin go bragh flags be seen as a positive or a negative? …. No matter how much we might protest about heritage and history the answer once again is a negative.

Would a move by the Hibs support to stop using the two flags in question make any difference when it comes to the behaviour of fans of The Rangers or the seemingly growing minority at Hearts who insist on waving union flags or King Billy banners and the like … the sad answer is 'probably not' But that isn't the whole picture … In my opinion if we were to make the first move we could at the very least say without fear of contradiction that we have fully eradicated any hint of sectarianism from our club and support, and just as importantly any false perception of it. It would also mean that nobody would have the slightest bit of ammunition to nay say that.

Where would that leave the sectarian idiots who still seem to be in charge at Ibrox or their disciples in Gorgie when they try to excuse their sectarian bigotry with their usual defence of whitabootery? ….. bloody well nowhere!!!

That's why I want to see Irish tricolours and Erin go bragh flags fall out of use amongst our support. I see it as part of a journey towards a greater good and it has nothing whatsoever to do with anti Irish or Catholic sentiment and absolutely nothing to do with any problems with the history and heritage of Hibernian football club or those who founded it …… A club I have actively supported for over 40 years as a walk up fan, season ticket holder, shareholder and now contributor to HSL.

I cant make my position any plainer than that ….. nor the fact that I ( and I'm sure the other folk on here and within the wider Hibs support who comments like yours are aimed at ) utterly resent any suggestion either directly or indirectly that we have a problem with the history of the club we CHOOSE to support, or ludicrous allegations of anti Irish Catholic bias.

Great post. I originally just wanted to answer "pish" to his/her post but your's is a little more eloquent.

[Brizo]

well this will teach me to be honest about the limits of my knowledge in a debate. the fact is, no one has answered the points i have raised without changing my argument to something that it isn't (it's called the straw-man fallacy :aok: ).

i don't support a team called hibernian to wind anyone up. flags and names don't have intentionality, people do.

again, for the billionth time, i'm not saying we should ban bringing flags to games. i think that would achieve nothing.

i am saying that the majority of people who bring flags to games do so to wind up the opposition, and that we need to acknowledge this before we can point the finger at other teams. that doesn't mean we need to stop bringing flags to games.

as i have said over and over again, it isn't about the reaction of the other supporters that matters, it's the intention of those waving the flags at them. if that intention is to wind them up, 'enhance' the oppositional atmosphere, then they are part of the problem of sectarianism.

Fair comments.

And I do agree that the primary purpose is for winding up the opposition fans. I actually think that's far preferable to them being waved in support of some Republican agenda.

FWIW my view on flags the more green flavoured flags in the stands the better - official Hibs flags, green and white saltires, EGB flags, Tricolours, GWB Union flags.

My line in the sand is songs like "Stokesys Da" and a tune that seems to have been changed from "bullet from the YLT" to "bullet from the IRA". Stuff like that shouldn't be allowed to take hold.

All I would say before I bow out (maybe :greengrin) is to reiterate a point which you seem to choose to ignore ? Hibs have taken the lead in the past, both at Board level and through supporter self policing, to eradicate "rebel" songs and sectarian chants ; and in certain periods our Board have dissuaded fans from bringing Tricolours to games. Those steps made absolutely no difference to how we are perceived by certain opposition fans and by a lazy and ignorant weedgie centric media, all of whom have a stereotyped view of us because of our name, colours and origins.

Because of where my line in the sand is i'm quite relaxed about EGB flags and Tricolours in our stands. I don't see any conflict of interest in my acceptance of them and me calling out our fans or the huns / diets for sectarian songs and chants. I totally get it that a lot of people wont get that but there you go.:aok:

[AgentDaleCooper]

Fair comments.

And I do agree that the primary purpose is for winding up the opposition fans. I actually think that's far preferable to them being waved in support of some Republican agenda.

FWIW my view on flags the more green flavoured flags in the stands the better - official Hibs flags, green and white saltires, EGB flags, Tricolours, GWB Union flags.

My line in the sand is songs like "Stokesys Da" and a tune that seems to have been changed from "bullet from the YLT" to "bullet from the IRA". Stuff like that shouldn't be allowed to take hold.

All I would say before I bow out (maybe :greengrin) is to reiterate a point which you seem to choose to ignore ? Hibs have taken the lead in the past, both at Board level and through supporter self policing, to eradicate "rebel" songs and sectarian chants ; and in certain periods our Board have dissuaded fans from bringing Tricolours to games. Those steps made absolutely no difference to how we are perceived by certain opposition fans and by a lazy and ignorant weedgie centric media, all of whom have a stereotyped view of us because of our name, colours and origins.

Because of where my line in the sand is i'm quite relaxed about EGB flags and Tricolours in our stands. I don't see any conflict of interest in my acceptance of them and me calling out our fans or the huns / diets for sectarian songs and chants. I totally get it that a lot of people wont get that but there you go.:aok:

I'll reply properly later, but just wanted to say - isn't it great that some actual, thought out, healthy debate is emerging here?!

You make good points :aok:

[OxoHibby]

do you bring flags to games?

the reason i ask is because i'm not talking about whether we have a history to be proud of, i'm talking about the motivation behind those who bring flags to games. i'm positing that those that do know less than nothing about history or anything like that, other than CATHOLIC Vs PROTESTANT, and they bring flags to wind up the opposition.

obviously not in all cases, but the majority.

you are correct that i don't know a great deal about our club's history, and there's been many posts on this and other threads that have educated me, and that i've found to be fascinating and enlightening - but none of them have addressed the above point, which i've been repeating over and over again. pretty much everyone who disagrees does so without addressing this point.

ultimately, my point is that we can't complain about sectarianism in other clubs unless we acknowledge its existence within our own, which it does when people fly flags to wind up other teams.

Bringing a flag to wind others up isn't necessarily sectarian. It's doing something to wind others up. There are quite a few people particularly in the west assume I'm a "Fenian" cos I support Hibs. I'm not I'm a hibby so if I brought say a tricolour to wind neanderthal s up neanderthals it would be to wind them up, not make a sectarian statement

[CMurdoch]

Bringing a flag to wind others up isn't necessarily sectarian. It's doing something to wind others up. There are quite a few people particularly in the west assume I'm a "Fenian" cos I support Hibs. I'm not I'm a hibby so if I brought say a tricolour to wind neanderthal s up neanderthals it would be to wind them up, not make a sectarian statement

I think the point that most folk have made is that the people who bring a tricolour to a game to wind up neanderthals are dicks because all they are doing is the same as the dicks of the other side (Hearts/Rangers) who bring union jacks to games for the same purpose. Dick on dick action if you like.

ALL nuances of every possible point are contained in the nine pages of this thread if you would like further clarity.
There are some very good posts from the likes of Nae Nookie.

[StevieC]

Bringing a flag to wind others up isn't necessarily sectarian.

Of course it's sectarian, especially in the context of Scottish football. The flag winds them up based on their (misguided?) religious beliefs. So if you wave a tricolour at Rangers fans they get wound up because of their Protestant beliefs and dislike of Catholics, and vice versa with Celtic supporters. The handful of idiots that do it at Hibs/Hearts might not be viewed by many as "a problem" but it is still sectarian behaviour and has no place at Easter Road.

The guy that stood beside me at Tynecastle waving his flag and blessing himself was doing so with the sole intention of "winding up" a particular section of the Hearts support .. a very clear "I'm a catholic so get it up you proddies" action, and most certainly sectarian.

For that reason I don't like to see the tricolour at Easter Road, and it's ridiculous for anyone to try and claim that I am in some way disrespecting my clubs history for thinking that way!

[CMurdoch]

Of course it's sectarian, especially in the context of Scottish football. The flag winds them up based on their (misguided?) religious beliefs. So if you wave a tricolour at Rangers fans they get wound up because of their Protestant beliefs and dislike of Catholics, and vice versa with Celtic supporters. The handful of idiots that do it at Hibs/Hearts might not be viewed by many as "a problem" but it is still sectarian behaviour and has no place at Easter Road.

The guy that stood beside me at Tynecastle waving his flag and blessing himself was doing so with the sole intention of "winding up" a particular section of the Hearts support .. a very clear "I'm a catholic so get it up you proddies" action, and most certainly sectarian.

For that reason I don't like to see the tricolour at Easter Road, and it's ridiculous for anyone to try and claim that I am in some way disrespecting my clubs history for thinking that way!

Stevie, given he was basically drawing a target on himself and those around him did you or anyone else (especially those with kids) tell him to stop it or move somewhere else?

[Keith_M]

Stevie, given he was basically drawing a target on himself and those around him did you or anyone else (especially those with kids) tell him to stop it or move somewhere else?


This is a difficult one.

I can totally understand if Stevie didn't want to get involved with an idiot like this, as it might have led to bother, possibly with him getting into trouble in front of his own kids.

It makes me wonder what the point is of the Stewards and Police at these games, as surely it's their job to deal with these idiots.

[CMurdoch]

This is a difficult one.

I can totally understand if Stevie didn't want to get involved with an idiot like this, as it might have led to bother, possibly with him getting into trouble in front of his own kids.

It makes me wonder what the point is of the Stewards and Police at these games, as surely it's their job to deal with these idiots.

You would probably have to make a complaint to the stewards or the Police and would have to frame it properly.
But dafties in the corners next to the opposing fans do put their fellow supporters in danger by being a focal point/magnet for the opposition object throwers. In the old terracing days you could simply move away from the baw bags but with all seater stadiums this isn't possible anymore.

[superfurryhibby]

Of course it's sectarian, especially in the context of Scottish football. The flag winds them up based on their (misguided?) religious beliefs. So if you wave a tricolour at Rangers fans they get wound up because of their Protestant beliefs and dislike of Catholics, and vice versa with Celtic supporters. The handful of idiots that do it at Hibs/Hearts might not be viewed by many as "a problem" but it is still sectarian behaviour and has no place at Easter Road.

The guy that stood beside me at Tynecastle waving his flag and blessing himself was doing so with the sole intention of "winding up" a particular section of the Hearts support .. a very clear "I'm a catholic so get it up you proddies" action, and most certainly sectarian.

For that reason I don't like to see the tricolour at Easter Road, and it's ridiculous for anyone to try and claim that I am in some way disrespecting my clubs history for thinking that way!

As previously stated, our very name, history and colours is an affront to the bigots.

Should we change our name and strip because it offends the Hun ( which it clearly does)?

I take your point about the guy you mention, clearly he was an idiot and at the wind-up, but the flag in itself isn’t the problem.

[WhileTheChief..]

Rangers or Hearts fans with flags are Neanderthals.

Hibs fans with flags are supporting their history and origins.

:confused:

I wonder why fans of Dundee, Aberdeen, St Mirren or practically every other club in the land, don’t feel the need to wave Saltire’s in support of their history. Why’s it only the Edinburgh and Glasgow clubs?

[Keith_M]

Rangers or Hearts fans with flags are Neanderthals.

Hibs fans with flags are supporting their history and origins.

:confused:

I wonder why fans of Dundee, Aberdeen, St Mirren or practically every other club in the land, don’t feel the need to wave Saltire’s in support of their history. Why’s it only the Edinburgh and Glasgow clubs?



Time for the rest of us to start taking Saltires to the games.



:saltireflag

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Rangers or Hearts fans with flags are Neanderthals.

Hibs fans with flags are supporting their history and origins.

:confused:

I wonder why fans of Dundee, Aberdeen, St Mirren or practically every other club in the land, don’t feel the need to wave Saltire’s in support of their history. Why’s it only the Edinburgh and Glasgow clubs?

Good shout! 👍