is it time for a flag debate?

[BullsCloseHibs]

Can't believe people think that waving a tricolour is sectarian....

Our club is intrinsically tied together with Ireland. It's in our name our colours and our history and it's wrong imo to try and ditch all of that just because some nuckledragger thinks it's sectarian

Nailed it there 👍

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I'll reply properly later, but just wanted to say - isn't it great that some actual, thought out, healthy debate is emerging here?!

You make good points :aok:

I find it amazing that people can't comprehend the reasonably straight forward point you made in the OP. Just in the final sentence though.

[StevieC]

Stevie, given he was basically drawing a target on himself and those around him did you or anyone else (especially those with kids) tell him to stop it or move somewhere else?

I said "what's that all about?" He gave me a confused look. I shook my head at his behaviour. He toddled off in the direction of the Wheatfield stand/

[StevieC]

As previously stated, our very name, history and colours is an affront to the bigots.

Should we change our name and strip because it offends the Hun ( which it clearly does)?

I take your point about the guy you mention, clearly he was an idiot and at the wind-up, but the flag in itself isn’t the problem.

Yeah, usual argument that gets trotted out. Our name, founders and early history are Irish so what's wrong with bringing a tricolour to the games?

As long as people make excuses, the problem isn't going to go away.

[maguire1875]

Yeah, usual argument that gets trotted out. Our name, founders and early history are Irish so what's wrong with bringing a tricolour to the games?

As long as people make excuses, the problem isn't going to go away.
A lot of Hibs supporters don’t see a problem that you’re seeing? Tri-colour and Erin go Bragh no problem for me.

[Hibees1973]

Why bring any national flag to a club game...surely any person showing a national flag at a club game is being provocative and it’s aim is to get a reaction from opposition fans and sometimes even their own team fans.

When I see any national flag at a Hibs game it makes me cringe. I don’t like someone bringing their own personal national flag and showing it in the Hibs end as it gives the impression it represents all Hibs fans.

You can easily design/make a flag or banner that does not encompass a nation.

If you want to show a national flag go to a Scotland game or any other nation of your choice and show the appropriate flag there.

[StevieC]

A lot of Hibs supporters don’t see a problem that you’re seeing? Tri-colour and Erin go Bragh no problem for me.

A lot of Hearts supporters don't see a problem with Union Flags, a lot of Rangers supporters don't see a problem with Ulster flags ...

.. and yet we somehow have a sectarian problem in Scottish football??

Who'd have thought it eh.

[Smartie]

A lot of Hearts supporters don't see a problem with Union Flags, a lot of Rangers supporters don't see a problem with Ulster flags ...

.. and yet we somehow have a sectarian problem in Scottish football??

Who'd have thought it eh.

As long as a flag induces vein-popping rage in people then Scotland will have a sectarian problem.

[superfurryhibby]

Yeah, usual argument that gets trotted out. Our name, founders and early history are Irish so what's wrong with bringing a tricolour to the games?

As long as people make excuses, the problem isn't going to go away.

Can you not see the irony in your reply?

You ignored the point I made about the root of the problem and then mention people making excuses.

The problem is that to many of the offended, our name, colours and history is reason enough. The odd bam crossing themselves and carrying a tricolour is an irrelevance when considered against the actual heart of the matter.

As you say though, as long as people make excuses, the problem won’t go away. But let’s not kid ourseleves what the actual problem is.

[StevieC]

Can you not see the irony in your reply?

You ignored the point I made about the root of the problem and then mention people making excuses.

The problem is that to many of the offended, our name, colours and history is reason enough. The odd bam crossing themselves and carrying a tricolour is an irrelevance when considered against the actual heart of the matter.

As you say though, as long as people make excuses, the problem won’t go away. But let’s not kid ourseleves what the actual problem is.

I didn't ignore the point, just didn't see it relevant to the post.
The flag, in this instance, is exactly the problem. It's a tool to fuel the problem. Idiots in the Hearts/Rangers support use Union flags, idiots in the Hibs support use tricolours.
Those that feel there is an anti-Irish agenda (even amongst their own supporters!) will defend the waving of tricolours as it's a "proud part of our clubs history" and anyone with views against their appearance in the Hibs end is disrespectful of the clubs roots with an anti-Irish agenda.

Probably the similar sort of argument that those waving Union flags in the Hearts end use ..

.. and so the problem in Scottish football continues ..

[HibeeHibernian4]

I didn't ignore the point, just didn't see it relevant to the post.
The flag, in this instance, is exactly the problem. It's a tool to fuel the problem. Idiots in the Hearts/Rangers support use Union flags, idiots in the Hibs support use tricolours.
Those that feel there is an anti-Irish agenda (even amongst their own supporters!) will defend the waving of tricolours as it's a "proud part of our clubs history" and anyone with views against their appearance in the Hibs end is disrespectful of the clubs roots with an anti-Irish agenda.

Probably the similar sort of argument that those waving Union flags in the Hearts end use ..

.. and so the problem in Scottish football continues ..

Am I an idiot for waving a tricolour, then? I haven't taken one for a good few years to Ibrox or Tynecastle, but I do take it one (in alteration with an Erin Go Bragh flag) on the odd European away day and some longer away trips. Good to know I'm an idiot.

[The Harp Awakes]

I didn't ignore the point, just didn't see it relevant to the post.
The flag, in this instance, is exactly the problem. It's a tool to fuel the problem. Idiots in the Hearts/Rangers support use Union flags, idiots in the Hibs support use tricolours.
Those that feel there is an anti-Irish agenda (even amongst their own supporters!) will defend the waving of tricolours as it's a "proud part of our clubs history" and anyone with views against their appearance in the Hibs end is disrespectful of the clubs roots with an anti-Irish agenda.

Probably the similar sort of argument that those waving Union flags in the Hearts end use ..

.. and so the problem in Scottish football continues ..

:yawn:

I hope you get as excited over the 50000 bigots spouting their sectarian hatred against Hibs, our fans and our Manager for 90 minutes at Ibrox in December.

Then again, we probably deserve it - our name, our badge and our colours and the few guys in our support flying a tricolour will have provoked the 'people' eh? In fact why don't we just do away with Hibs and Celtic for good and the problem will have gone and Scotland can live happily ever after?

And of course blessing yourself should be made a crime. Simples.

Sad that we've got the odd few like you in our support.

[superfurryhibby]

I didn't ignore the point, just didn't see it relevant to the post.
The flag, in this instance, is exactly the problem. It's a tool to fuel the problem. Idiots in the Hearts/Rangers support use Union flags, idiots in the Hibs support use tricolours.
Those that feel there is an anti-Irish agenda (even amongst their own supporters!) will defend the waving of tricolours as it's a "proud part of our clubs history" and anyone with views against their appearance in the Hibs end is disrespectful of the clubs roots with an anti-Irish agenda.

Probably the similar sort of argument that those waving Union flags in the Hearts end use ..

.. and so the problem in Scottish football continues ..

You can’t acknowledge that to those of a Hunnish persuasion our name, colours and history are provocation enough.

It’s undeniable Stevie. In terms of proportionality, the handful of fans you refer to are irrelevant.

For the record I have never taken a tricolour or any other flag to the football, but I have been called a fenian bassa and worse quite a few times just for wearing a green and white scarf.

[Hibrandenburg]

:yawn:

I hope you get as excited over the 50000 bigots spouting their sectarian hatred against Hibs, our fans and our Manager for 90 minutes at Ibrox in December.

Then again, we probably deserve it - our name, our badge and our colours and the few guys in our support flying a tricolour will have provoked the 'people' eh? In fact why don't we just do away with Hibs and Celtic for good and the problem will have gone and Scotland can live happily ever after?

And of course blessing yourself should be made a crime. Simples.

Sad that we've got the odd few like you in our support.

If you recognise your right to fly an Irish flag at Hibs games because it symbolises our Irish heritage then you have to recognise the hun's right to fly the British flag to symbolises their British heritage.

[StevieC]

:yawn:

I hope you get as excited over the 50000 bigots spouting their sectarian hatred against Hibs, our fans and our Manager for 90 minutes at Ibrox in December.

Then again, we probably deserve it - our name, our badge and our colours and the few guys in our support flying a tricolour will have provoked the 'people' eh? In fact why don't we just do away with Hibs and Celtic for good and the problem will have gone and Scotland can live happily ever after?

And of course blessing yourself should be made a crime. Simples.

Sad that we've got the odd few like you in our support.

Hmmmm, round on your own support and make them feel unwelcome, that's a novel approach.

Of course I hate the Huns as much as the next person .. it's crazy to suggest otherwise for the vast majority of supporters (I've been spat at and called a Fenian often enough at Ibrox that this isn't going to change any time soon).

By bundling in the clubs name, badge and history with the tricolour waving idiots you are pretty much proving the point I made in the post. Try separating them out and dissect each on their own merits/faults. If you can manage to do that then it's a step towards eradicating the problem that irks you.

And at what point did I say that blessing yourself was a crime, but don't you think that only doing it at a football match with the sole intention of getting a reaction from another supporter is not really the time or the place?

[StevieC]

You can’t acknowledge that to those of a Hunnish persuasion our name, colours and history are provocation enough.

It’s undeniable Stevie. In terms of proportionality, the handful of fans you refer to are irrelevant.

For the record I have never taken a tricolour or any other flag to the football, but I have been called a fenian bassa and worse quite a few times just for wearing a green and white scarf.

Of course I can acknowledge that. The Huns are an absolute embarrassment to the game, and the vile, bigotry and hatred that spews forth from that collection of knuckle draggers makes my blood boil. Does that mean that using behaviour that might be sectarian and directing it towards them is okay? Not in my book.

And yes, I agree that proportionally it almost pales into insignificance, but I can't agree it's irrelevant. It's a very small part of the problem, and none of us can even kid ourselves that we could even make a dent in the problem that exists.. but if you ignore it you condone it.

And for the record .. I used to take a tricolour to matches. It was late 70's and I was barely a teenager though, with irrational thinking that I was in some way showing a greater support of my team by waving it at away games.
Thankfullly there is always room for us to learn and improve our behaviours as we become older and wiser.

[CMurdoch]

Am I an idiot for waving a tricolour, then? I haven't taken one for a good few years to Ibrox or Tynecastle, but I do take it one (in alteration with an Erin Go Bragh flag) on the odd European away day and some longer away trips. Good to know I'm an idiot.

Are you Irish or a teenager?
If not you may well be.
I'm Scottish, it makes no sense for me to wave an Irish flag at a football match in Scotland involving two Scottish teams.
Do you ever meet guys you know whilst at the game when you are waving a tricolour. If your not Irish or a teenager do they not give you strange looks and think you have lost the plot?

Some Jambos showed me a photograph of 3 flags in the Hibs end at Tynecastle last week.
Two of the wavers were so up on their history of Hibernian FC that they were waving Ivory Coast flags. This made the Jambo supporters laugh loudly to my embarrassment. I am sure that you and the other proud upholders of the clubs history and roots will be disciplining these supporters for bringing our club and it's heritage into disrepute and ridicule by our sworn enemies.

[HibeeHibernian4]

Are you Irish or a teenager?

No to both.


If not you may well be.

This doesn't make any sense.


I'm Scottish, it makes no sense for me to wave an Irish flag at a football match in Scotland involving two Scottish teams.

Hibernian are a Scottish club with Irish roots. Ever wondered what Hibernia translates as?


Do you ever meet guys you know whilst at the game when you are waving a tricolour. If your not Irish or a teenager do they not give you strange looks and think you have lost the plot?

No, I don't funnily enough. Most Hibs fans are comfortable in their own skin about our club's heritage, and don't piss themselves in fright at the sight of a national flag.


Some Jambos showed me a photograph of 3 flags in the Hibs end at Tynecastle last week. Two of the wavers were so up on their history of Hibernian FC that they were waving Ivory Coast flags.

Yeah, some people hold them round the wrong way, because when you're looking at it from behind, it looks like you've got it the wrong way around. I'm sure that's a comment on their knowledge of Hibs' history rather than an innocuous mistake.


This made the Jambo supporters laugh loudly to my embarrassment.

Oh no, the Jambos are laughing at us, how ever will we recover? Get a grip.


I am sure that you and the other proud upholders of the clubs history and roots will be disciplining these supporters for bringing our club and it's heritage into disrepute and ridicule by our sworn enemies.

Newsflash, mate. Our 'sworn enemies' (I presume you mean Rangers and the sectarian minority of Hearts' support) hate and ridicule us for everything we stand for, irrespective of how a few people in the stand hold a tricolour.

[The Harp Awakes]

If you recognise your right to fly an Irish flag at Hibs games because it symbolises our Irish heritage then you have to recognise the hun's right to fly the British flag to symbolises their British heritage.

100% correct and I do. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I don't have a problem with any country's flag. In my view anyone who gets wound up by a British or Irish flag at a football match probably does so as a result of their own prejudices.

Verbal sectarian, or racist abuse as Neil Lennon would refer to, en masse, as we have seen at Tynecastle, and particularly Ibrox over the years is not on. To blame that on the odd Hibs fan displaying an Irish flag and blessing themselves is a very poor excuse and only let's the bigots deflect attention away from their own hatred which is causing the problem.

[The Harp Awakes]

Hmmmm, round on your own support and make them feel unwelcome, that's a novel approach.

Of course I hate the Huns as much as the next person .. it's crazy to suggest otherwise for the vast majority of supporters (I've been spat at and called a Fenian often enough at Ibrox that this isn't going to change any time soon).

By bundling in the clubs name, badge and history with the tricolour waving idiots you are pretty much proving the point I made in the post. Try separating them out and dissect each on their own merits/faults. If you can manage to do that then it's a step towards eradicating the problem that irks you.

And at what point did I say that blessing yourself was a crime, but don't you think that only doing it at a football match with the sole intention of getting a reaction from another supporter is not really the time or the place?

Your posts suggest that you're the one having a go at your own support!

My point is that your attention and angst is aimed in the wrong direction. Hibs may have a few idiots in our support but we don't have a sectarian problem which exists in the Hearts and Rangers support. 1 or 2 guys waving a tri colour in the Hibs end is no excuse for that. All you are doing is deflecting the attention away from the bigots and they will get away with it again, as they have been doing for as long as I can remember.

[StevieC]

Your posts suggest that you're the one having a go at your own support!

I am having a go at those that I view as aiding the sectarian problem we have in Scottish football. If you don't stand up and say something then the problem continues. I'm not sure, in your eyes, what problem I am causing in Scottish football that you would feel the need to round on me?
I'm certainly not anti-Irish, bigoted, or sectarian (unless being an atheist is sectarian??).



My point is that your attention and angst is aimed in the wrong direction.

I don't think it is aimed in the wrong direction. If you see a sectarian problem then stand up against it. What better place to start than your own support? Do you think Hearts fans are going to pay any attention to a lecture from a Hibs fan?


Hibs may have a few idiots in our support but we don't have a sectarian problem which exists in the Hearts and Rangers support. 1 or 2 guys waving a tri colour in the Hibs end is no excuse for that. All you are doing is deflecting the attention away from the bigots and they will get away with it again, as they have been doing for as long as I can remember.

I agree, the problem is worse elsewhere. But that is down to them to get their house in order. And as long as we have the idiots in our support that fuel the problem then it's going to be harder to pressure others to sort their support out. How can you shame Hearts into sorting out their Union flags and "up to our knees" lot whilst we have the tricolour waving idiots that seem content with the status quo?

[linlithgowhibbie]

:yawn:

I hope you get as excited over the 50000 bigots spouting their sectarian hatred against Hibs, our fans and our Manager for 90 minutes at Ibrox in December.

Then again, we probably deserve it - our name, our badge and our colours and the few guys in our support flying a tricolour will have provoked the 'people' eh? In fact why don't we just do away with Hibs and Celtic for good and the problem will have gone and Scotland can live happily ever after?

And of course blessing yourself should be made a crime. Simples.

Sad that we've got the odd few like you in our support.

I don't see Stevie getting excited in his responses, neither do I see him insulting people personally, perhaps you should re-read his and your posts. For what its worth I think we should have more fans as keen on the Hibs as Steve. Sorry for you that you think its sad having fans who can reason their beliefs in a considered and polite manner.

[harpo]

At a Hibs v Celtic game when Lennon played for Celtic a Hibs fan next to me with his daughter shouted out calling Lennon a Fenian b******! after he fouled one of our players.
I had to remind him of our clubs origins and he should be ashamed of himself and he duly shut up. I was absolutely fuming at him and his ignorance.
I know someone like him are a small minority but I know they exist in the Hibs support.

[CMurdoch]

At a Hibs v Celtic game when Lennon played for Celtic a Hibs fan next to me with his daughter shouted out calling Lennon a Fenian b******! after he fouled one of our players.
I had to remind him of our clubs origins and he should be ashamed of himself and he duly shut up. I was absolutely fuming at him and his ignorance.
I know someone like him are a small minority but I know they exist in the Hibs support.

That is exactly what Hibs supporters need to do.
You challenged the guy for being a moron and he wound his neck in.
After that i suspect he probably stopped shouting hateful sectarian stuff at the football.

[Keith_M]

:yawn:

I hope you get as excited over the 50000 bigots spouting their sectarian hatred against Hibs, our fans and our Manager for 90 minutes at Ibrox in December.

Then again, we probably deserve it - our name, our badge and our colours and the few guys in our support flying a tricolour will have provoked the 'people' eh? In fact why don't we just do away with Hibs and Celtic for good and the problem will have gone and Scotland can live happily ever after?

And of course blessing yourself should be made a crime. Simples.

Sad that we've got the odd few like you in our support.


That's among the biggest load of nonsense I've seen on here recently, and that's saying something.

How in earth is he rounding on his own support? The guy he mentioned is quite clearly trying to inject sectarianism into the game, which is totally ridiculous.

At no point did he say any of things you're trying to make out (e.g. blessing himself being a crime).

I'd rather have people like Stevie in our support than any sectarian A-holes like the one he mentioned.

[Hibrandenburg]

That's among the biggest load of nonsense I've seen on here recently, and that's saying something.

How in earth is he rounding on his own support? The guy he mentioned is quite clearly trying to inject sectarianism into the game, which is totally ridiculous.

At no point did he say any of things you're trying to make out (e.g. blessing himself being a crime).

I'd rather have people like Stevie in our support than any sectarian A-holes like the one he mentioned.

Radicals hate those who take the centre ground more than their perceived enemy.

[The Harp Awakes]

Radicals hate those who take the centre ground more than their perceived enemy.

Hibernian (aka Irishman) takes an Ireland flag to a game. Doesn't sound very radical to me:rolleyes:

Everybody to their own though.

[WhileTheChief..]

I watched Man Utd v Juve last night.

I didn’t notice any English or Italian flags being waved in support of their history, origins or country.

Why is it only Irish people that feel the need to do this?

And who are you showing that support to? Who is it that you want to see the flag?

[Hibrandenburg]

Hibernian (aka Irishman) takes an Ireland flag to a game in Scotland contested by 2 Scottish teams in the Scottish League where the vast majority of the fans are Scottish but feel no need to fly a Scottish flag. Does sound very radical to me:rolleyes:

Everybody to their own though.

Fixed that for you.

[AgentDaleCooper]

just a thought - there's clearly plenty of interesting and informed opinions on this thread, but it tends to descend into pettiness as soon as people start putting words in other peoples' mouths, saying 'if you think X then this means you think Y' or whatever, because that is all rubbish based on defensiveness and neuroticism.

we're better than that, folks :aok:

[Hibrandenburg]

just a thought - there's clearly plenty of interesting and informed opinions on this thread, but it tends to descend into pettiness as soon as people start putting words in other peoples' mouths, saying 'if you think X then this means you think Y' or whatever, because that is all rubbish based on defensiveness and neuroticism.

we're better than that, folks :aok:

Sorry but that's simply not true. It's completely fair to say that if you insist upon your right to do something then you have to accept that others have the same right.

Rangers give me the boak when they turn up at Easter Road flying their union jacks and spouting their "No Surrender" pish based on the belief that it's just them celebrating their unionist heritage. It's just too hypocritical to think I'd then accept it's ok for our fans to do the same.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Sorry but that's simply not true. It's completely fair to say that if you insist upon your right to do something then you have to accept that others have the same right.

Rangers give me the boak when they turn up at Easter Road flying their union jacks and spouting their "No Surrender" pish based on the belief that it's just them celebrating their unionist heritage. It's just too hypocritical to think I'd then accept it's ok for our fans to do the same.

I completely agree with you on both counts, i worded my post badly - i think i'm just meaning that a lot of people on here are telling each other what they think, but this is because they are fundamentally misunderstanding the basic premise of what the other is saying (e.g. questioning whether flags bring something negative to games = you are ashamed of our history, you think it's the flags' fault blahblahblahblah)

[HibeeHibernian4]

I watched Man Utd v Juve last night.

I didn’t notice any English or Italian flags being waved in support of their history, origins or country.

Why is it only Irish people that feel the need to do this?

And who are you showing that support to? Who is it that you want to see the flag?

21391

Genuine question - are you given commission every time you're wrong on this forum? You'd have made a fortune by now.

[HibeeHibernian4]

Sorry but that's simply not true. It's completely fair to say that if you insist upon your right to do something then you have to accept that others have the same right.

Rangers give me the boak when they turn up at Easter Road flying their union jacks and spouting their "No Surrender" pish based on the belief that it's just them celebrating their unionist heritage. It's just too hypocritical to think I'd then accept it's ok for our fans to do the same.

Elements of British nationalism (especially shouts like 'no surrender') have gone hand in hand with the far right since the seventies, and this is especially the case with Rangers' support, who have their name alongside neo-Nazi groups such as Combat 18. There's your difference.

[The Harp Awakes]

Fixed that for you.

:blah::yawn:

[HibeeHibernian4]

Fixed that for you.

You mean "airbrushed Hibs' history for you".

If somebody wants to support an apolitical club with no Irish heritage, then they're going to have to change their team, because Hibs are not that.

[Stokesy's on fire]

I watched Man Utd v Juve last night.

I didn’t notice any English or Italian flags being waved in support of their history, origins or country.

Why is it only Irish people that feel the need to do this?

And who are you showing that support to? Who is it that you want to see the flag?


The English fans are too busy taking pictures with their phones and asking for the autographs of opposition players and so on.

[Stokesy's on fire]

At a Hibs v Celtic game when Lennon played for Celtic a Hibs fan next to me with his daughter shouted out calling Lennon a Fenian b******! after he fouled one of our players.
I had to remind him of our clubs origins and he should be ashamed of himself and he duly shut up. I was absolutely fuming at him and his ignorance.
I know someone like him are a small minority but I know they exist in the Hibs support.


Any Hibs fan shouting crap like that really needs to wonder why they chose to support Hibs what a weird way to behave considering the origins of Hibernian.

[WhileTheChief..]

21391

Genuine question - are you given commission every time you're wrong on this forum? You'd have made a fortune by now.

Genuine question aye?

Trying to have a grown up discussion here.

[Hibrandenburg]

Elements of British nationalism (especially shouts like 'no surrender') have gone hand in hand with the far right since the seventies, and this is especially the case with Rangers' support, who have their name alongside neo-Nazi groups such as Combat 18. There's your difference.

And cries of "Erin Go Bragh" have been heard since the 19th century in support of Irish Nationalism. The Wolftones even had a song with the title on their album "Rifles of the IRA".

Neither cheeks of this arse is something the majority of fans at ER want to see at the fitba. Leave politics outside, it's fitba not a political rally.

[Elephant Stone]

I watched Man Utd v Juve last night.

I didn’t notice any English or Italian flags being waved in support of their history, origins or country.

Why is it only Irish people that feel the need to do this?

And who are you showing that support to? Who is it that you want to see the flag?

Saltires in club colours are probably the most common flag in Scottish football, barring Celtic and Rangers. What on earth are you on about?

https://cdn1.lockerdome.com/uploads/a1dfcdef3e0eac0da10449b64e28c7d820f1766c00882e1c50 13da327ca1268c_facebook

[Stokesy's on fire]

And cries of "Erin Go Bragh" have been heard since the 19th century in support of Irish Nationalism. The Wolftones even had a song with the title on their album "Rifles of the IRA".

Neither cheeks of this arse is something the majority of fans at ER want to see at the fitba. Leave politics outside, it's fitba not a political rally.


cracking band live them!

[blackpoolhibs]

It seems to me that the only reason folk take a tri colour to a game against herts and the huns is to wind them up.

For that reason alone i'd ban them or stop them being shown. I have no problem with any flags at football, but if the only reason they are at the games is to cause bother, then i personally can do without them, it wont make the slightest difference to the game.

For games against the rest, fly the flags as much as you like.

[harpo]

I watched Man Utd v Juve last night.

I didn’t notice any English or Italian flags being waved in support of their history, origins or country.

Why is it only Irish people that feel the need to do this?

And who are you showing that support to? Who is it that you want to see the flag?

Yes damn that Michael Whelehan for having the nerve to show his Irish heritage. For naming his club Hibernian with it's Irish colours and emblem.
Your comment comes across as anti Irish.

[Hibrandenburg]

You mean "airbrushed Hibs' history for you".

If somebody wants to support an apolitical club with no Irish heritage, then they're going to have to change their team, because Hibs are not that.


:faf:

Aye right, because that's why we all support Hibs right enough.


I think our board, the team and most of the fans will disagree with you. If you want to get involved in the Irish political debate then organise a rally and leave the rest of us in peace to enjoy our fitba.

[The Harp]

just a thought - there's clearly plenty of interesting and informed opinions on this thread, but it tends to descend into pettiness as soon as people start putting words in other peoples' mouths, saying 'if you think X then this means you think Y' or whatever, because that is all rubbish based on defensiveness and neuroticism.

we're better than that, folks :aok:

I thought you may have had a feeling that starting another flag debate was likely to'descend into pettiness' as you put it.
The previous debates have achieved nothing imho, other than create division among fans on here. By and large I'd say the various elements of the support get along pretty well.

I've no desire to tell people what I think is acceptable for them to take to a game, and I expect the same courtesy in return. As long as it's not done to solely to antagonise opposing fans, it's fine by me.

[bigwheel]

It seems to me that the only reason folk take a tri colour to a game against herts and the huns is to wind them up.

For that reason alone i'd ban them or stop them being shown. I have no problem with any flags at football, but if the only reason they are at the games is to cause bother, then i personally can do without them, it wont make the slightest difference to the game.

For games against the rest, fly the flags as much as you like.

Cmon BH - What’s wrong with winding up Hearts and Rangers fans?

Ps. I still say any adult who gets wound up by a flag needs to chill a bit ...it’s a flag! [emoji1132][emoji1184][emoji2528][emoji469][emoji636][emoji2][emoji102]

[harpo]

cracking band live them!

Hahaha You're right Wolfetones are brilliant live, also have a cracking song called Hibernia ☘

[HibeeHibernian4]

:faf:

Aye right, because that's why we all support Hibs right enough.

I think our board, the team and most of the fans will disagree with you. If you want to get involved in the Irish political debate then organise a rally and leave the rest of us in peace to enjoy our fitba.

That wasn't remotely my point. I support Hibs because my Dad does, and his Dad did, and I'm pretty sure his Dad did too.

I am not for a second suggesting that our history is what lures modern day fans to us, I am simply saying that if a Hibs fan (not you specifically, just a Hibs fan) is so uncomfortable with our Irish history, perhaps it's not the club for them. Because our history is unchangeable and it will not be written out. Luckily, the vast majority of Hibs fans are very much okay with our status as a Scottish club with Irish roots.

This is not about getting involved in the Irish political debate, which is why Hibs fans (wisely) abandoned the old songbook of the 80s. While I have a lot of sympathy with the Irish Republicanism movement, I do not see a need for me or any other Hibs fan to bring it into stadiums, especially if they're singing the praises of the latter incarnation of the IRA.

There's not really a debate to be had here. I take people's points about a handful of youngsters trying to be provocative with the tricolour at Ibrox and Tynecastle, but hardly to a point where we need to think about 'banning' it. Hibernian are a Scottish club with a deep and proud Irish history, and are inherently political in how they were founded.

A Hibs fan in the 21st century is more than welcome to have zero interest in Irish nationalism or our club's roots, but to deny them or try to curb others from celebrating them is completely out of order.

[bigwheel]

That wasn't remotely my point. I support Hibs because my Dad does, and his Dad did, and I'm pretty sure his Dad did too.

I am not for a second suggesting that our history is what lures modern day fans to us, I am simply saying that if a Hibs fan (not you specifically, just a Hibs fan) is so uncomfortable with our Irish history, perhaps it's not the club for them. Because our history is unchangeable and it will not be written out. Luckily, the vast majority of Hibs fans are very much okay with our status as a Scottish club with Irish roots.

This is not about getting involved in the Irish political debate, which is why Hibs fans (wisely) abandoned the old songbook of the 80s. While I have a lot of sympathy with the Irish Republicanism movement, I do not see a need for me or any other Hibs fan to bring it into stadiums, especially if they're singing the praises of the latter incarnation of the IRA.

There's not really a debate to be had here. I take people's points about a handful of youngsters trying to be provocative with the tricolour at Ibrox and Tynecastle, but hardly to a point where we need to think about 'banning' it. Hibernian are a Scottish club with a deep and proud Irish history, and are inherently political in how they were founded.

A Hibs fan in the 21st century is more than welcome to have zero interest in Irish nationalism or our club's roots, but to deny them or try to curb others from celebrating them is completely out of order.

I like this response ..nothing wrong with having some passion about the clubs heritage...[emoji108][emoji106]

[SideBurns]

And cries of "Erin Go Bragh" have been heard since the 19th century in support of Irish Nationalism. The Wolftones even had a song with the title on their album "Rifles of the IRA".

Neither cheeks of this arse is something the majority of fans at ER want to see at the fitba. Leave politics outside, it's fitba not a political rally.

The Wolfe Tones, of course, are named after a protestant United Irishman. It would be difficult to use them as an example of sectarianism.

Not that I'm advocating Hibs fans should start singing their songs at the games, and I've already stated about 100 pages back that if we did indulge in rebel stuff then this would be a legitimate debate, but it does help to illustrate how ridiculous the idea of the tricolour as a 'sectarian' symbol really is. We are getting big crowds these days, and there are a few Irish flags - it should only be a big deal to those who hate Ireland for their own, peculiar reasons and who gives a Fiddler's fart about them??

[The Harp Awakes]

That wasn't remotely my point. I support Hibs because my Dad does, and his Dad did, and I'm pretty sure his Dad did too.

I am not for a second suggesting that our history is what lures modern day fans to us, I am simply saying that if a Hibs fan (not you specifically, just a Hibs fan) is so uncomfortable with our Irish history, perhaps it's not the club for them. Because our history is unchangeable and it will not be written out. Luckily, the vast majority of Hibs fans are very much okay with our status as a Scottish club with Irish roots.

This is not about getting involved in the Irish political debate, which is why Hibs fans (wisely) abandoned the old songbook of the 80s. While I have a lot of sympathy with the Irish Republicanism movement, I do not see a need for me or any other Hibs fan to bring it into stadiums, especially if they're singing the praises of the latter incarnation of the IRA.

There's not really a debate to be had here. I take people's points about a handful of youngsters trying to be provocative with the tricolour at Ibrox and Tynecastle, but hardly to a point where we need to think about 'banning' it. Hibernian are a Scottish club with a deep and proud Irish history, and are inherently political in how they were founded.

A Hibs fan in the 21st century is more than welcome to have zero interest in Irish nationalism or our club's roots, but to deny them or try to curb others from celebrating them is completely out of order.

Well said. Sums things up perfectly. No more to say.

[harpo]

That wasn't remotely my point. I support Hibs because my Dad does, and his Dad did, and I'm pretty sure his Dad did too.

I am not for a second suggesting that our history is what lures modern day fans to us, I am simply saying that if a Hibs fan (not you specifically, just a Hibs fan) is so uncomfortable with our Irish history, perhaps it's not the club for them. Because our history is unchangeable and it will not be written out. Luckily, the vast majority of Hibs fans are very much okay with our status as a Scottish club with Irish roots.

This is not about getting involved in the Irish political debate, which is why Hibs fans (wisely) abandoned the old songbook of the 80s. While I have a lot of sympathy with the Irish Republicanism movement, I do not see a need for me or any other Hibs fan to bring it into stadiums, especially if they're singing the praises of the latter incarnation of the IRA.

There's not really a debate to be had here. I take people's points about a handful of youngsters trying to be provocative with the tricolour at Ibrox and Tynecastle, but hardly to a point where we need to think about 'banning' it. Hibernian are a Scottish club with a deep and proud Irish history, and are inherently political in how they were founded.

A Hibs fan in the 21st century is more than welcome to have zero interest in Irish nationalism or our club's roots, but to deny them or try to curb others from celebrating them is completely out of order.

Brilliant stuff, this echoes my thoughts.

[Hibrandenburg]

That wasn't remotely my point. I support Hibs because my Dad does, and his Dad did, and I'm pretty sure his Dad did too.

I am not for a second suggesting that our history is what lures modern day fans to us, I am simply saying that if a Hibs fan (not you specifically, just a Hibs fan) is so uncomfortable with our Irish history, perhaps it's not the club for them. Because our history is unchangeable and it will not be written out. Luckily, the vast majority of Hibs fans are very much okay with our status as a Scottish club with Irish roots.

This is not about getting involved in the Irish political debate, which is why Hibs fans (wisely) abandoned the old songbook of the 80s. While I have a lot of sympathy with the Irish Republicanism movement, I do not see a need for me or any other Hibs fan to bring it into stadiums, especially if they're singing the praises of the latter incarnation of the IRA.

There's not really a debate to be had here. I take people's points about a handful of youngsters trying to be provocative with the tricolour at Ibrox and Tynecastle, but hardly to a point where we need to think about 'banning' it. Hibernian are a Scottish club with a deep and proud Irish history, and are inherently political in how they were founded.

A Hibs fan in the 21st century is more than welcome to have zero interest in Irish nationalism or our club's roots, but to deny them or try to curb others from celebrating them is completely out of order.

Then we share a lot in common. I too am sympathetic to the idea of a united Ireland, I just don't think that a football ground is the place for political activism. Like I posted at the beginning of this thread, with very few exceptions I have no problems with flags, it's the twats waving them that are the problem.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Then we share a lot in common. I too am sympathetic to the idea of a united Ireland, I just don't think that a football ground is the place for political activism. Like I posted at the beginning of this thread, with very few exceptions I have no problems with flags, it's the twats waving them that are the problem.
Exactly - and i don't think people are saying flags should be banned either. People like myself are simply looking to get people to acknowledge thathe way in which they are used the majority of the time is not appropriate, and has a negative impact on us, football and society. though the extent kf this is negligable compared to other teams, we need to acknowledge the problem at the very least, otherwise we look like hypocrites.

[Hibrandenburg]

The Wolfe Tones, of course, are named after a protestant United Irishman. It would be difficult to use them as an example of sectarianism.

Not that I'm advocating Hibs fans should start singing their songs at the games, and I've already stated about 100 pages back that if we did indulge in rebel stuff then this would be a legitimate debate, but it does help to illustrate how ridiculous the idea of the tricolour as a 'sectarian' symbol really is. We are getting big crowds these days, and there are a few Irish flags - it should only be a big deal to those who hate Ireland for their own, peculiar reasons and who gives a Fiddler's fart about them??

The flag itself like the union flag isn't sectarian. It's The twats waving them to provoke that are the problem.

[WhileTheChief..]

Saltires in club colours are probably the most common flag in Scottish football, barring Celtic and Rangers. What on earth are you on about?

https://cdn1.lockerdome.com/uploads/a1dfcdef3e0eac0da10449b64e28c7d820f1766c00882e1c50 13da327ca1268c_facebook

That’s clearly a European game. Taking a national flag abroad is obviously different to a league game.

[WhileTheChief..]

I watched Man Utd v Juve last night.

I didn’t notice any English or Italian flags being waved in support of their history, origins or country.

Why is it only Irish people that feel the need to do this?

And who are you showing that support to? Who is it that you want to see the flag?


Yes damn that Michael Whelehan for having the nerve to show his Irish heritage. For naming his club Hibernian with it's Irish colours and emblem.
Your comment comes across as anti Irish.

Which part are you seeing that is anti Irish?

You’re looking for something that isn’t there and trying to pick an argument.

[Elephant Stone]

That’s clearly a European game. Taking a national flag abroad is obviously different to a league game.

How? And there are plenty of saltires at domestic games anyway.

[StevieC]

A Hibs fan in the 21st century is more than welcome to have zero interest in Irish nationalism or our club's roots, but to deny them or try to curb others from celebrating them is completely out of order.

Are you able to explain to me why these "roots" are only celebrated at Ibrox and Tynecastle?

[Elephant Stone]

Are you able to explain to me why these "roots" are only celebrated at Ibrox and Tynecastle?

That's not true though is it?

[Elephant Stone]

Are you able to explain to me why these "roots" are only celebrated at Ibrox and Tynecastle?

http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000SkjPpKwm9ww/s/650/WV30-Celtic-v-Hibs.jpg

Erin Go Bragh at Parkhead, the home of Unionism.

[StevieC]

That's not true though is it?

You get my point though?

[HibeeHibernian4]

Are you able to explain to me why these "roots" are only celebrated at Ibrox and Tynecastle?

Short answer: they're not.

Long answer: we have one of our most prominent supporter's clubs named after the St Patrick's Church in the Cowgate, there's a Dublin James Connolly HSC (who have an amazing flag that I can't find a photo of for the life of me), we recently brought out a commemorative 140th anniversary top with a harp crest, we have a harp on our modern day badge in honour of our roots, we still have our club name of Hibernian, we play in the colours of Ireland, we've had a display at Hampden celebrating our founder Canon Edward Joseph Hannan, we have multiple tricolours and Erin go Bragh flags at every European trip and Hampden outing.

[StevieC]

Erin Go Bragh at Parkhead, the home of Unionism.

Couldn't you find a photo with a tricolour there?
I suspect you could if you could be bothered looking hard enough, but the point being you wouldn't have any problem finding photos with tricolours at Ibrox and Parkhead. It's the reason why they appear at these games that is the crux of the matter. Work that out and you are some way to understanding why Scotland will never be rid of its sectarian problems.

[Elephant Stone]

Couldn't you find a photo with a tricolour there?
I suspect you could if you could be bothered looking hard enough, but the point being you wouldn't have any problem finding photos with tricolours at Ibrox and Parkhead. It's the reason why they appear at these games that is the crux of the matter. Work that out and you are some way to understanding why Scotland will never be rid of its sectarian problems.

Mate you are categorically wrong. People take tricolours/Erin Go Bragh flags to matches no matter who we are playing. There are thousands of Hibs fans whose ancestors will have come from Ireland at the same time as those Irish immigrants who founded our club, it's part of the history of many of our families. If we had been created by Italian immigrants, played in blue, were called Edinburgh Roma then you would be seeing the occasional Italian flag in our crowds as well. Deliberately waving it at opposition supporters is cringeworthy as hell, but it's no reason to ban a flag which is intrinsically linked to the history of our football club and many of our supporters.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

That wasn't remotely my point. I support Hibs because my Dad does, and his Dad did, and I'm pretty sure his Dad did too.

I am not for a second suggesting that our history is what lures modern day fans to us, I am simply saying that if a Hibs fan (not you specifically, just a Hibs fan) is so uncomfortable with our Irish history, perhaps it's not the club for them. Because our history is unchangeable and it will not be written out. Luckily, the vast majority of Hibs fans are very much okay with our status as a Scottish club with Irish roots.

This is not about getting involved in the Irish political debate, which is why Hibs fans (wisely) abandoned the old songbook of the 80s. While I have a lot of sympathy with the Irish Republicanism movement, I do not see a need for me or any other Hibs fan to bring it into stadiums, especially if they're singing the praises of the latter incarnation of the IRA.

There's not really a debate to be had here. I take people's points about a handful of youngsters trying to be provocative with the tricolour at Ibrox and Tynecastle, but hardly to a point where we need to think about 'banning' it. Hibernian are a Scottish club with a deep and proud Irish history, and are inherently political in how they were founded.

A Hibs fan in the 21st century is more than welcome to have zero interest in Irish nationalism or our club's roots, but to deny them or try to curb others from celebrating them is completely out of order.

Good post!

[WhileTheChief..]

Ach well, I guess when some of our fans star flying Union Jacks in support of our “Britishness” we can really have a good debate about it all!

[Elephant Stone]

Ach well, I guess when some of our fans star flying Union Jacks in support of our “Britishness” we can really have a good debate about it all!

They already do, and I don't see how anyone could object to that.

[WhileTheChief..]

Only one I can think of is the green and black one.

There was a pretty long thread about it recently. From memory quite a few folk did object to it?

[Hibrandenburg]

They already do, and I don't see how anyone could object to that.

I've never seen a red, white and blue union flag flying in the Hibs end.

[Hibrandenburg]

Only one I can think of is the green and black one.

There was a pretty long thread about it recently. From memory quite a few folk did object to it?

Why would anyone object to anyone flying a flag that celebrates our heritage? :duck:

[StevieC]

Mate you are categorically wrong. People take tricolours/Erin Go Bragh flags to matches no matter who we are playing. There are thousands of Hibs fans whose ancestors will have come from Ireland at the same time as those Irish immigrants who founded our club, it's part of the history of many of our families. If we had been created by Italian immigrants, played in blue, were called Edinburgh Roma then you would be seeing the occasional Italian flag in our crowds as well. Deliberately waving it at opposition supporters is cringeworthy as hell, but it's no reason to ban a flag which is intrinsically linked to the history of our football club and many of our supporters.

And therein lies the problem.

For as long as Hibs, Hearts, Celtic and Rangers supporters use history as a reason for publicly exhibiting paraphernalia that creates division (and let's not try to pretend it's not religiously motivated), then Scotland will never be able to rid itself of its sectarian shame.

I am comfortable (and in some cases, quite proud) of the Irish beginnings, the name, the badge, the work of the St Patrick's branch, and whatever beliefs supporters have away from the stadium (I even enrolled my stepson into a Catholic school for goodness sake) ..

.. but I would rather our national game was free of sectarianism, and I am comfortable with getting the flack for being vocal about it.
People have to understand that this isn't an attack on their beliefs, religion or heritage .. it's about collectively admitting there is a problem and collectively trying to resolve that problem.

[WhileTheChief..]

Why would anyone object to anyone flying a flag that celebrates our heritage? :duck:

I might borrow an Ulster flag from a Hearts fan and use it to show support for our manager.

I’m sure it will be fine :cb

[AgentDaleCooper]

I might borrow an Ulster flag from a Hearts fan and use it to show support for our manager.

I’m sure it will be fine :cb

I genuinely think that on one level that would be a great idea. So would folk coming in NI tops with Lennon on the back. I lack the dedication to do so, but would say fair play to anyone that did :aok:

[Keith_M]

Only one I can think of is the green and black one.

There was a pretty long thread about it recently. From memory quite a few folk did object to it?


That celebrates our hooligan heritage, so surely nobody could possibly object


:wink:

[Elephant Stone]

And therein lies the problem.

For as long as Hibs, Hearts, Celtic and Rangers supporters use history as a reason for publicly exhibiting paraphernalia that creates division (and let's not try to pretend it's not religiously motivated), then Scotland will never be able to rid itself of its sectarian shame.

I am comfortable (and in some cases, quite proud) of the Irish beginnings, the name, the badge, the work of the St Patrick's branch, and whatever beliefs supporters have away from the stadium (I even enrolled my stepson into a Catholic school for goodness sake) ..

.. but I would rather our national game was free of sectarianism, and I am comfortable with getting the flack for being vocal about it.
People have to understand that this isn't an attack on their beliefs, religion or heritage .. it's about collectively admitting there is a problem and collectively trying to resolve that problem.

When did this become a problem for Hibs exactly? There have been Irish flags in our support for my entire lifetime, I have never once heard someone say that they're upset or offended by this. Why should someone be legitimately offended or upset by this? Or are we doing this so that people with illegitimate reasons for offence are less bigoted? That seems to be the fundamental part of this argument.

[Keith_M]

And therein lies the problem.

For as long as Hibs, Hearts, Celtic and Rangers supporters use history as a reason for publicly exhibiting paraphernalia that creates division (and let's not try to pretend it's not religiously motivated), then Scotland will never be able to rid itself of its sectarian shame.

I am comfortable (and in some cases, quite proud) of the Irish beginnings, the name, the badge, the work of the St Patrick's branch, and whatever beliefs supporters have away from the stadium (I even enrolled my stepson into a Catholic school for goodness sake) ..

.. but I would rather our national game was free of sectarianism, and I am comfortable with getting the flack for being vocal about it.
People have to understand that this isn't an attack on their beliefs, religion or heritage .. it's about collectively admitting there is a problem and collectively trying to resolve that problem.



Nobody in their right mind could possibly object to that.


Sadly we have some in that category that post on here, so they will.

[NAE NOOKIE]

100% correct and I do. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I don't have a problem with any country's flag. In my view anyone who gets wound up by a British or Irish flag at a football match probably does so as a result of their own prejudices.

Verbal sectarian, or racist abuse as Neil Lennon would refer to, en masse, as we have seen at Tynecastle, and particularly Ibrox over the years is not on. To blame that on the odd Hibs fan displaying an Irish flag and blessing themselves is a very poor excuse and only let's the bigots deflect attention away from their own hatred which is causing the problem.

How very simplistic of you mate.

The waving of Irish and British flags in Scottish football has been symbolic of the sectarian problem in our game practically all the way back to when it became a problem in our game and society in general, how can anybody deny that?. As for taking offence at such flags being a reflection of a persons own prejudices, it may well be, but how is pointing that out helping to eradicate sectarianism within our game?

No, we are not to blame for the displays of bigotry both verbal and visual which occur at Ibrox and to a lesser extent Tynecastle …. but are you seriously saying that the waving of Irish tricolours and Erin go bragh flags by the Hibs support isn't adding fuel to the fire, and as I've repeated ad nauseum in my posts ….. it doesn't matter a flying **** how much right we have to wave either flag, that assertation is an utter side issue to the fact that they are contributing to the problem, and to deny that is just burying your head in the sand and ignoring the reality of the situation.

No, the waving of flags by our support does not excuse the behaviour of fans of The Rangers or Hearts …. But it does provide them with the opportunity to point the finger at us and turn what should be a straight case of them perpetuation bigotry and being rightly condemned for it into an argument about who is the most sectarian ….. and in that argument it doesn't MATTER how much right we have to wave tricolours or flags with our original badge and motto on them.

If we want to ignore that fact then that's fine ….. but in doing so we are also saying that we are not prepared to make what would be a noble sacrifice for the greater good. It would not be denying our roots or an insult to the clubs founders, it would be showing that we are the one club out of the 4 main players in this car crash of a situation who are prepared to take a significant step towards solving it. And I don't want any nonsense about why don't we bin the clubs colours, name and badge as well then? …. We all know that is not what is being suggested and never will be by me or anybody else.

The best analogy I can think of is the stance that Nelson Mandela took when he came to power in South Africa. He was also a man who had every 'right' to take certain actions. He had every right to take revenge on the racists who had imprisoned him for decades, he had every right to arrest and jail thousands of white South Africans who had committed every crime imaginable against the human rights of the black population … he even had every right to dispossess thousands of whites who had stolen the land from its rightful owners ( as Mugabe did in Zimbabwe ) and last but not least he probably had the right to see executed a good few thousand white government, police and army officials who had committed murder as a tool to control the black population.

But Mandela saw that the best way was to do none of those things … and in doing so avoided what could have been a bloodbath with the whites perhaps turning to violence to protect themselves and the black population seeking vigilante style revenge in retaliation. Sometimes the hard way is the right way, no matter how much it might go against what you have a 'right to do'

I'll finish with a couple of points inspired by other posters:

1) …. I love those green and white Saltire flags a lot of fans bring to games … they are perfect to reflect our heritage and modern day support.

2) …. Millwall FC was founded by Scotsmen who had economically migrated to London to find work in jam factories … the clubs colours and Lion badge reflect that Scottish heritage. I defy anybody to post a picture on here from this century of any game involving Millwall where a Scottish saltire flag is in evidence amongst their support.

[bigwheel]

How very simplistic of you mate.

The waving of Irish and British flags in Scottish football has been symbolic of the sectarian problem in our game practically all the way back to when it became a problem in our game and society in general, how can anybody deny that?. As for taking offence at such flags being a reflection of a persons own prejudices, it may well be, but how is pointing that out helping to eradicate sectarianism within our game?

No, we are not to blame for the displays of bigotry both verbal and visual which occur at Ibrox and to a lesser extent Tynecastle …. but are you seriously saying that the waving of Irish tricolours and Erin go bragh flags by the Hibs support isn't adding fuel to the fire, and as I've repeated ad nauseum in my posts ….. it doesn't matter a flying **** how much right we have to wave either flag, that assertation is an utter side issue to the fact that they are contributing to the problem, and to deny that is just burying your head in the sand and ignoring the reality of the situation.

No, the waving of flags by our support does not excuse the behaviour of fans of The Rangers or Hearts …. But it does provide them with the opportunity to point the finger at us and turn what should be a straight case of them perpetuation bigotry and being rightly condemned for it into an argument about who is the most sectarian ….. and in that argument it doesn't MATTER how much right we have to wave tricolours or flags with our original badge and motto on them.

If we want to ignore that fact then that's fine ….. but in doing so we are also saying that we are not prepared to make what would be a noble sacrifice for the greater good. It would not be denying our roots or an insult to the clubs founders, it would be showing that we are the one club out of the 4 main players in this car crash of a situation who are prepared to take a significant step towards solving it. And I don't want any nonsense about why don't we bin the clubs colours, name and badge as well then? …. We all know that is not what is being suggested and never will be by me or anybody else.

The best analogy I can think of is the stance that Nelson Mandela took when he came to power in South Africa. He was also a man who had every 'right' to take certain actions. He had every right to take revenge on the racists who had imprisoned him for decades, he had every right to arrest and jail thousands of white South Africans who had committed every crime imaginable against the human rights of the black population … he even had every right to dispossess thousands of whites who had stolen the land from its rightful owners ( as Mugabe did in Zimbabwe ) and last but not least he probably had the right to see executed a good few thousand white government, police and army officials who had committed murder as a tool to control the black population.

But Mandela saw that the best way was to do none of those things … and in doing so avoided what could have been a bloodbath with the whites perhaps turning to violence to protect themselves and the black population seeking vigilante style revenge in retaliation. Sometimes the hard way is the right way, no matter how much it might go against what you have a 'right to do'

I'll finish with a couple of points inspired by other posters:

1) …. I love those green and white Saltire flags a lot of fans bring to games … they are perfect to reflect our heritage and modern day support.

2) …. Millwall FC was founded by Scotsmen who had economically migrated to London to find work in jam factories … the clubs colours and Lion badge reflect that Scottish heritage. I defy anybody to post a picture on here from this century of any game involving Millwall where a Scottish saltire flag is in evidence amongst their support.

You’ve had an interesting post there mate and then a horror attempt at a point at the end .. the dot net equivalent of a brilliant mazy run followed by a shank....

[CMurdoch]

I might borrow an Ulster flag from a Hearts fan and use it to show support for our manager.

I’m sure it will be fine :cb

On JKB there was a similar discussion and I laughed when one guy said he would bring a tricolour to Tynecastle in support of Jimmy Dunne

[Brizo]

And therein lies the problem.

For as long as Hibs, Hearts, Celtic and Rangers supporters use history as a reason for publicly exhibiting paraphernalia that creates division (and let's not try to pretend it's not religiously motivated), then Scotland will never be able to rid itself of its sectarian shame.

I am comfortable (and in some cases, quite proud) of the Irish beginnings, the name, the badge, the work of the St Patrick's branch, and whatever beliefs supporters have away from the stadium (I even enrolled my stepson into a Catholic school for goodness sake) ..

.. but I would rather our national game was free of sectarianism, and I am comfortable with getting the flack for being vocal about it.
People have to understand that this isn't an attack on their beliefs, religion or heritage .. it's about collectively admitting there is a problem and collectively trying to resolve that problem.


Good points but in my view it depends what people mean by religion.

I doubt if any of our wee handful of juvenile (in more ways than one) Tricolour wavers have the slightest participation in religion. They wont be waving their flags as some form of protest against the Reformation while their Tynie or Ibrox counterparts aren't making a statement against papal infallibility or transubstantiation when they wave their flags. Any religious element is just a label. I used to go games in the 80s with a guy whose dad was either a COS Minister or Elder and he turned up one day with a Tricolour purely for the wind up.

Having thought about this a wee bit more, I think you have two different types who bring Tricolours to games. Those who (whatever others think) view it as a legitimate commemoration of their clubs origins, who maybe incorporate it with other flags, tie it to the fencing and leave it there. Then you have the young dafties getting as close to the huns or diets as they can and waving them in a provocative manner.

You yourself have alluded, I think , to taking a Tricolour to games in your youth. And that's what I think the extent of our "problem" is , a right of passage for a wee few dafties who will have probably grown out of it in a couple of seasons. Compared to the behaviour of the OF and a section of Hertz, its a miniscule issue. I think we as a support are in danger of over emphasising the extent of this as a problem. I don't see any political Republican agenda behind the flags, which I accept would then be a legitimate concern.

Which I suppose brings us to perception and a point that seems to have been ignored / avoided by many. You appear to be roughly same vintage as me and will maybe recall when chairmen like Hart and Waugh actively discouraged Tricolours at ER. That had absolutely no impact on the huns and diets away end songbook , their aggression or on the ignorant perception the weedgie centric media have of us , a perception based purely on our name and colours.

If Hibs operated a turnstile flag exchange scheme, confiscated our wee handful of dafties Tricolours and issued them with green and white saltires it would have no effect on how we are viewed by the huns, a section of Hertz or the bulk of the Scottish media.

If our miniscule number of daftie Tricolour wavers stopped bringing them to games it might please some folk on here but in terms of it contributing towards an end to sectarianism in Scottish football, history shows that it would have no impact whatsoever.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

How very simplistic of you mate.

The waving of Irish and British flags in Scottish football has been symbolic of the sectarian problem in our game practically all the way back to when it became a problem in our game and society in general, how can anybody deny that?. As for taking offence at such flags being a reflection of a persons own prejudices, it may well be, but how is pointing that out helping to eradicate sectarianism within our game?

No, we are not to blame for the displays of bigotry both verbal and visual which occur at Ibrox and to a lesser extent Tynecastle …. but are you seriously saying that the waving of Irish tricolours and Erin go bragh flags by the Hibs support isn't adding fuel to the fire, and as I've repeated ad nauseum in my posts ….. it doesn't matter a flying **** how much right we have to wave either flag, that assertation is an utter side issue to the fact that they are contributing to the problem, and to deny that is just burying your head in the sand and ignoring the reality of the situation.

No, the waving of flags by our support does not excuse the behaviour of fans of The Rangers or Hearts …. But it does provide them with the opportunity to point the finger at us and turn what should be a straight case of them perpetuation bigotry and being rightly condemned for it into an argument about who is the most sectarian ….. and in that argument it doesn't MATTER how much right we have to wave tricolours or flags with our original badge and motto on them.

If we want to ignore that fact then that's fine ….. but in doing so we are also saying that we are not prepared to make what would be a noble sacrifice for the greater good. It would not be denying our roots or an insult to the clubs founders, it would be showing that we are the one club out of the 4 main players in this car crash of a situation who are prepared to take a significant step towards solving it. And I don't want any nonsense about why don't we bin the clubs colours, name and badge as well then? …. We all know that is not what is being suggested and never will be by me or anybody else.

The best analogy I can think of is the stance that Nelson Mandela took when he came to power in South Africa. He was also a man who had every 'right' to take certain actions. He had every right to take revenge on the racists who had imprisoned him for decades, he had every right to arrest and jail thousands of white South Africans who had committed every crime imaginable against the human rights of the black population … he even had every right to dispossess thousands of whites who had stolen the land from its rightful owners ( as Mugabe did in Zimbabwe ) and last but not least he probably had the right to see executed a good few thousand white government, police and army officials who had committed murder as a tool to control the black population.

But Mandela saw that the best way was to do none of those things … and in doing so avoided what could have been a bloodbath with the whites perhaps turning to violence to protect themselves and the black population seeking vigilante style revenge in retaliation. Sometimes the hard way is the right way, no matter how much it might go against what you have a 'right to do'

I'll finish with a couple of points inspired by other posters:

1) …. I love those green and white Saltire flags a lot of fans bring to games … they are perfect to reflect our heritage and modern day support.

2) …. Millwall FC was founded by Scotsmen who had economically migrated to London to find work in jam factories … the clubs colours and Lion badge reflect that Scottish heritage. I defy anybody to post a picture on here from this century of any game involving Millwall where a Scottish saltire flag is in evidence amongst their support.

So Millwall fans are our role models now...😀

This is a pointless debate. You and others dislike certain things, nobody forces you to do them.

Others like to bring certain flags, they are as entitled to do that as you are entitled not to.

Live and let live.

[blackpoolhibs]

Mate you are categorically wrong. People take tricolours/Erin Go Bragh flags to matches no matter who we are playing. There are thousands of Hibs fans whose ancestors will have come from Ireland at the same time as those Irish immigrants who founded our club, it's part of the history of many of our families. If we had been created by Italian immigrants, played in blue, were called Edinburgh Roma then you would be seeing the occasional Italian flag in our crowds as well. Deliberately waving it at opposition supporters is cringeworthy as hell, but it's no reason to ban a flag which is intrinsically linked to the history of our football club and many of our supporters.

The thing is, the only time we see tri colours waved at other fans, is to goad them, and its only done at games against two clubs.

Why do these same people not celebrate our irishness and history against Kilmarnock or Hamilton, i will tell you why, because they are not celebrating anything, they are doing it to goad herts and sevco fans.

As Stevie says, like him i have no problem with our history, but games against those 2 clubs have the dafty's out in force, who have no interest in our history, only winding up their fans, yet are probably up in arms here moaning about sectarianism and bigotry from both clubs.

[CMurdoch]

http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000SkjPpKwm9ww/s/650/WV30-Celtic-v-Hibs.jpg

Erin Go Bragh at Parkhead, the home of Unionism.

No tricolour

[Elephant Stone]

The thing is, the only time we see tri colours waved at other fans, is to goad them, and its only done at games against two clubs.

Why do these same people not celebrate our irishness and history against Kilmarnock or Hamilton, i will tell you why, because they are not celebrating anything, they are doing it to goad herts and sevco fans.

As Stevie says, like him i have no problem with our history, but games against those 2 clubs have the dafty's out in force, who have no interest in our history, only winding up their fans, yet are probably up in arms here moaning about sectarianism and bigotry from both clubs.

I would rather not see people goading opposition fans with tricolours, it's pretty cringeworthy, but I have no problem with seeing tricolour/erin go bragh flags in amongst our support generally, next to union flags, saltires and whatever else is in there. It is not a problem. There is no legitimate reason why someone would be upset or offended by this.

[Elephant Stone]

No tricolour

And?

[Weegreenman]

The only flag that’s ever bothered me are the ones that are being waved right in front of me, restricting my view. Other than that I couldn’t give a toss if Hearts want to wave Red hand of Ulster/ Union Jacks or whatever. Same goes for our supporters waving the Tricolour.

What about the Cork/Dublin supporters clubs, are they not to bring their tricolour which says Cork Hibernian Supporters club on it? Load of old nonsense if you ask me. If people want to react to a flag then it’s them that are the problem, not the flags. Dickheads will always find an excuse to be dickheads.

[StevieC]

Which I suppose brings us to perception and a point that seems to have been ignored / avoided by many. You appear to be roughly same vintage as me and will maybe recall when chairmen like Hart and Waugh actively discouraged Tricolours at ER. That had absolutely no impact on the huns and diets away end songbook , their aggression or on the ignorant perception the weedgie centric media have of us , a perception based purely on our name and colours.

If Hibs operated a turnstile flag exchange scheme, confiscated our wee handful of dafties Tricolours and issued them with green and white saltires it would have no effect on how we are viewed by the huns, a section of Hertz or the bulk of the Scottish media.

If our miniscule number of daftie Tricolour wavers stopped bringing them to games it might please some folk on here but in terms of it contributing towards an end to sectarianism in Scottish football, history shows that it would have no impact whatsoever.

You may well be right, but surely the only way to find out would be to try?

Imagine if there could be a derby game without even the hint of any sort of sectarianism or religious divide? Wouldn't that be an amazing thing?
I know lots of decent minded jambos that are embarrassed by the sectarian element in their own support. Admittedly I fear it would be a much bigger task for them to overcome the problem within their support, than it would for us to educate the handful of tricolour waving dafties in ours, but just imagine if it was achieved.

[WhileTheChief..]

The Edinburgh Roma example is a good one, as is the point about fans coming over from Cork or wherever.

It seems that the issue is all about intent. These examples are clearly fine.

But if it’s agame against Rangers how does anyone distinguish between that and noising up their fans?

As Nookie stated, if gives them “legitimate” (in their minds) reason to retaliate.

Why not just avoid the hassle and leave the flag at home that day, no one will mind.

[blackpoolhibs]

I would rather not see people goading opposition fans with tricolours, it's pretty cringeworthy, but I have no problem with seeing tricolour/erin go bragh flags in amongst our support generally, next to union flags, saltires and whatever else is in there. It is not a problem. There is no legitimate reason why someone would be upset or offended by this.

I have no problem either, but we hardly see any, other than when we play those two clubs, and we only ever see them waved right down the front as near as possible to their lot, why is this if its not to goad them?

Why dont they wave them from the back of the FF or the old North Enclosure?

If we are so into our history as much as some on here think we are, why are our stands not covered in these flags?

[KDY Hibs]

No, this is not the time for a flag debate.

[Brizo]

You may well be right, but surely the only way to find out would be to try?

Imagine if there could be a derby game without even the hint of any sort of sectarianism or religious divide? Wouldn't that be an amazing thing?
I know lots of decent minded jambos that are embarrassed by the sectarian element in their own support. Admittedly I fear it would be a much bigger task for them to overcome the problem within their support, than it would for us to educate the handful of tricolour waving dafties in ours, but just imagine if it was achieved.

As I mentioned in my full post I don't think it is a "religious divide" in the true sense. Any religious labels are purely that, labels of convenience with no substance or genuine religious conviction behind them.

At the risk of going us round in circles and me repeating my previous posts, we as a club have repeatedly taken the lead against sectarianism and it hasn't been reciprocated in any meaningful way by the OF and I don't think Hertz have ever done nearly enough to address their problem.

If I thought our handful of dafties ditching their Tricolours would have any tangible impact on eradicating sectarianism in Scottish football Id be good with that, but (and here im going round in my own circles) history shows that just wouldn't happen.

I'm definitely out now but ill be looking at the next 20 pages :greengrin with interest. What is good about this years flag debate is that its all been relatively civilised with no banning orders (yet).

[SideBurns]

It's difficult to attempt to summarise such a lengthy debate, but the main complaint seems to be that it's the idiots who fly the tricolour who are the problem, rather than the flag itself.

Ok. So there are idiots in the Hibs support (same as every other support). Some are idiots who scream abuse at our own players, others get blootered before the game and annoy the 'normal' fans unfortunate enough to be seated near them, others still might shout occasional racist or sectarian abuse at the opposition. Some idiots will be guilty of a combination of the above, and others will be idiotic in other ways. Some idiots (very few) will carry a tricolour, others will not (and may well be vehemently opposed to the idea of the tricolour).

The truth is that if there is a problem attached to the national flag of Ireland being flown by a tiny minority of Hibs fans (some of whom might well be idiots, but flying the flag is no proof of that), it lies in the reaction of those who seem to hate it. Why any of our own supporters regard it as an issue for us remains beyond me.

[Lancs Harp]

Inclusive and Bohemian. Thats Hibs for me politically. A place where a CCS green black and white Union flag can fly next to an Irish tricolour or a polish flag or whatever. We should be proud of that.

We are Hibs.

[StevieC]

The truth is that if there is a problem attached to the national flag of Ireland being flown by a tiny minority of Hibs fans (some of whom might well be idiots, but flying the flag is no proof of that), it lies in the reaction of those who seem to hate it. Why any of our own supporters regard it as an issue for us remains beyond me.

I think that you are right in so much as the problem lies with reactions. The reaction of the Protestant bigots that hate Ireland/Catholicism and the reaction of the Catholic bigots that hate Orange/Protestant/Loyalists. These reactions are indeed what fuels the sectarian divide and the problems within Scottish football. The reactions (dismay, rather than hatred) of those that cannot see any logical benefits to watching a game of football with people around them spending as much time concentrating on the reactions of opposing supporters (and making efforts to extrapolate reactions), I don't think are the reactions that need to be analysed.

Excuses as to why unacceptable behaviour can be acceptable simply allow the problem to continue. I'm somewhat frustrated that I don't have a simple solution to the tricolour waving idiots in our support, I wish I had, but I do think it's a problem (however insignificant that problem might be) that needs to be addressed .. not ignored.

As a separate entity, I find it unlikely that any Hibs supporter has a problem with tricolours, with Ireland, with our badge, colour of strip or our history .. I would hope that every supporter has a problem with sectarianism though.

[HibeeHibernian4]

Good points but in my view it depends what people mean by religion.

I doubt if any of our wee handful of juvenile (in more ways than one) Tricolour wavers have the slightest participation in religion. They wont be waving their flags as some form of protest against the Reformation while their Tynie or Ibrox counterparts aren't making a statement against papal infallibility or transubstantiation when they wave their flags. Any religious element is just a label. I used to go games in the 80s with a guy whose dad was either a COS Minister or Elder and he turned up one day with a Tricolour purely for the wind up.

Having thought about this a wee bit more, I think you have two different types who bring Tricolours to games. Those who (whatever others think) view it as a legitimate commemoration of their clubs origins, who maybe incorporate it with other flags, tie it to the fencing and leave it there. Then you have the young dafties getting as close to the huns or diets as they can and waving them in a provocative manner.

You yourself have alluded, I think , to taking a Tricolour to games in your youth. And that's what I think the extent of our "problem" is , a right of passage for a wee few dafties who will have probably grown out of it in a couple of seasons. Compared to the behaviour of the OF and a section of Hertz, its a miniscule issue. I think we as a support are in danger of over emphasising the extent of this as a problem. I don't see any political Republican agenda behind the flags, which I accept would then be a legitimate concern.

Which I suppose brings us to perception and a point that seems to have been ignored / avoided by many. You appear to be roughly same vintage as me and will maybe recall when chairmen like Hart and Waugh actively discouraged Tricolours at ER. That had absolutely no impact on the huns and diets away end songbook , their aggression or on the ignorant perception the weedgie centric media have of us , a perception based purely on our name and colours.

If Hibs operated a turnstile flag exchange scheme, confiscated our wee handful of dafties Tricolours and issued them with green and white saltires it would have no effect on how we are viewed by the huns, a section of Hertz or the bulk of the Scottish media.

If our miniscule number of daftie Tricolour wavers stopped bringing them to games it might please some folk on here but in terms of it contributing towards an end to sectarianism in Scottish football, history shows that it would have no impact whatsoever.

All of this is bang on the money.

Not only are we in the right, but to try and appease Rangers and a minority of Hearts’ support by not flying certain flags wouldn’t change a thing.

[HibeeHibernian4]

Inclusive and Bohemian. Thats Hibs for me politically. A place where a CCS green black and white Union flag can fly next to an Irish tricolour or a polish flag or whatever. We should be proud of that.

We are Hibs.

Also bang on the money.

We are a broad church. I personally don’t love the sight of a green and black Union Jack, but they have just as much right to fly one as I do to fly my Erin go Bragh flag. As a point of order, it’ll be in the away end at Pittodrie tomorrow, if anyone wants to get a photo with it.

[HibeeHibernian4]

I think that you are right in so much as the problem lies with reactions. The reaction of the Protestant bigots that hate Ireland/Catholicism and the reaction of the Catholic bigots that hate Orange/Protestant/Loyalists.

I’m going to help you out here, one side (the bigots on the Orange/Protestant/Loyalist side) would be quite happy to see the Catholic population of their country subjugated and treated as second class citizens. The Catholic side fight for equal treatment.

I am an atheist, I personally find the divide stupid and can’t see sense in either religion, but that is objectively true. The ‘staunchest’ in society are genuinely offended by the existence of Catholics, and the inverse is simply not true.

[StevieC]

I’m going to help you out here, one side (the bigots on the Orange/Protestant/Loyalist side) would be quite happy to see the Catholic population of their country subjugated and treated as second class citizens. The Catholic side fight for equal treatment.

I am an atheist, I personally find the divide stupid and can’t see sense in either religion, but that is objectively true. The ‘staunchest’ in society are genuinely offended by the existence of Catholics, and the inverse is simply not true.

I'm going to help you out here, it's **** all to do with watching a game of football.

[HibeeHibernian4]

I'm going to help you out here, it's **** all to do with watching a game of football.

Exactly my point, and I have no interest in bringing it into a football ground. Conversely, flying a tricolour is **** all to do with sectarianism/religion.

[StevieC]

Conversely, flying a tricolour is **** all to do with sectarianism/religion.

.. unless it's inside a football stadium in Scotland.

[HibeeHibernian4]

.. unless it's inside a football stadium in Scotland.

I’m all ears, please, explain to me how it’s sectarian. Genuinely, the floor is yours, I’d love to know what specifically is sectarian about a Hibs fan waving a tricolour. Please let me know.

[AgentDaleCooper]

I’m all ears, please, explain to me how it’s sectarian. Genuinely, the floor is yours, I’d love to know what specifically is sectarian about a Hibs fan waving a tricolour. Please let me know.

It is not necessarily sectarian, that depends on intent.

Intent isn't visible, though.

What is visible, and memorable, is fannies waving the tricolour at other fans, clearly wanting to wind them up.

This makes us look like we have a sectarianism problem, and weakens our hand when we call other clubs out on it. It also strengthens the association that exists with thd tricolour and sectarian issues. Not acknowledging that this happens is also part of the problem.

[HibeeHibernian4]

What is visible, and memorable, is fannies waving the tricolour at other fans, clearly wanting to wind them up.

This makes us look like we have a sectarianism problem, and weakens our hand when we call other clubs out on it. It also strengthens the association that exists with thd tricolour and sectarian issues. Not acknowledging that this happens is also part of the problem.

I genuinely respect your point of view, but I would just like this leap explained to me. They might be wanting to wind them up, I can’t personally judge that but let’s assume they are.

Why is the wind up sectarian?

[AgentDaleCooper]

I genuinely respect your point of view, but I would just like this leap explained to me. They might be wanting to wind them up, I can’t personally judge that but let’s assume they are.

Why is the wind up sectarian?

well the reason that it is a wind up is, to me at least, clearly due to sectarian issues in scotland. the knobs that have been referenced earlier in this thread that were at tynie were crossing themselves as well. these things aren't in and of themselves sectarian, it's just that they all fall under the scope of association to the issue in scottish culture. if you said to me 'to which side of the sectarian issue is each of these objects associated with', then presented me with a tricolor, a UJ and a car battery, the first two would be quite straight forward, and the latter would make no sense. this doesn't mean that i am a bigot, it just means that i know what cultural associations exist in scotland (and ireland). this also doesn't mean that the flags themselves are inherently tied to these issues. it's just a fact that in football culture, they have been used by those that promote sectarianism, and for many people, those connotations have not left them.

[StevieC]

I’m all ears, please, explain to me how it’s sectarian. Genuinely, the floor is yours, I’d love to know what specifically is sectarian about a Hibs fan waving a tricolour. Please let me know.

See my previous post regarding the game at Tynecastle.
Or alternatively get yourself along to any OF game to see sectarian behaviour in full flow with flags, chanting, gestures, abuse and anything else that can be used to wind up the opposition.

Are you suggesting there isn't a problem within our game?

Would you say that Hearts have a sectarian element within their support?

Seriously, the "prove its sectarian" argument is tiresome. There's a problem, arguing over the semantics of it is missing the point. And to deny there's an issue is pretty blinkered. It's amplified when it's Celtic and Rangers. It's on a much lower level when it's Hibs and Hearts (but still there).

[AgentDaleCooper]

See my previous post regarding the game at Tynecastle.
Or alternatively get yourself along to any OF game to see sectarian behaviour in full flow with flags, chanting, gestures, abuse and anything else that can be used to wind up the opposition.

Are you suggesting there isn't a problem within our game?

Would you say that Hearts have a sectarian element within their support?

Seriously, the "prove its sectarian" argument is tiresome. There's a problem, arguing over the semantics of it is missing the point. And to deny there's an issue is pretty blinkered. It's amplified when it's Celtic and Rangers. It's on a much lower level when it's Hibs and Hearts (but still there).
I think ths aspect of it that's tricky is that the hibs flavour of sectarianism isn't actually anti-protestant, it's more just 'this is a flag that you hate that is connected to us...oh and the phrase 'orange b******' pisses you off too...cool...i'll wave this, shout that, chuck some coins and maybe jump one of you later'.

It's not hate for the sake of history or oppression, it's hate for the sake of hate, exploiting whatever context happens to be lying around.

[monktonharp]

well the reason that it is a wind up is, to me at least, clearly due to sectarian issues in scotland. the knobs that have been referenced earlier in this thread that were at tynie were crossing themselves as well. these things aren't in and of themselves sectarian, it's just that they all fall under the scope of association to the issue in scottish culture. if you said to me 'to which side of the sectarian issue is each of these objects associated with', then presented me with a tricolor, a UJ and a car battery, the first two would be quite straight forward, and the latter would make no sense. this doesn't mean that i am a bigot, it just means that i know what cultural associations exist in scotland (and ireland). this also doesn't mean that the flags themselves are inherently tied to these issues. it's just a fact that in football culture, they have been used by those that promote sectarianism, and for many people, those connotations have not left them.I would never ever consider buying a car battery with a UJ displayed prominently on it. Unless of course it could easily be removed. I tend to shop at Farmer.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I think we get far too lost in the weeds with this debate in Scotland, perhaps understandably. In England you see Union flags Irish tricolours and all manner of other flags amongst supporters of the same team. Nobody should be getting 'offended' by either, nor by the Scottish saltire at matches in Scotland. Given our history, it seems perfectly natural to me that tricolours might be spotted at games; personally I wouldn't be bothered by the sight of a Union flag in our support, as it seems reasonable, given our location. On other hand, if someone brings a flag which is clearly designed to provoke and which has no relation to Hibs/Scotland/Britain or a Hibs player e.g. a Nazi swastika flag or an ISIS flag, to pick extreme examples, that's where we should be drawing the line, IMO.

I think we all need to be more relaxed about it. They're just national flags, pieces of coloured cloth, important to some but not to others. It isn't worth all the arguing, when all is said and done.

[Antifa Hibs]

No problem with either the EGB or Irish flag. Its been part of our history and identity for decades and decades and should be part of it for the next ones too. A football club formed by immigrants, a Scottish club open to all with a hint of Irishness - I love our history, even more so in this era of Brexit, right-wing rise and xenophobia. On top of that the erin go bragh flag is a belter and both flags are pretty much our colours. If we started associating ourselves with any old struggle and cause (Palestine, Ulster, Basque, Catalan, Communism etc etc) and started belting out the rebs on the terraces flying Starry Ploughs about then aye, its cringey and we become mini Celtic (and that's coming from someone with a keen interest in Irish Republicanism and love a bit of the Wolfe Tones and Christy Moore), that's Celtic identity, they can keep that. BTW i've also no problem with the huns and their identity, I don't agree with their flags, songs and politics but it is there's and if they're happy being a "proud Scottish and British club" they have every right to express that (so long as the line isn't crossed with anti-catholic chanting and flags).

The biggest redneck out the lot is Hertz. A club and fanbase with absolutely no identity of their own they need to blatantly steal it from one of their biggest rivals. Flying a UJ which is the huns colours, flying red hands of ulster with no links at all to N.I, the Lee Rigby flag, Gorgie "Loyal", the billy boys, the Tommy Robinson stickers etc etc, the list goes on. A section of their fanbase is trying so hard to be like Rangers it's cringeworthy. They are mini wannabe huns and that's a fact, and its nothing like us flying a tri-colour. Never let anyone give you the "mini celtic" pish, a 30 second history lesson puts that to bed.

PS we all know why the majority of tri-colours are at Ibrox and Tynie and i've no problem with it. Football rivalries all over the world are built more on football and have history, politics, geography etc involved.

[NAE NOOKIE]

No problem with either the EGB or Irish flag. Its been part of our history and identity for decades and decades and should be part of it for the next ones too. A football club formed by immigrants, a Scottish club open to all with a hint of Irishness - I love our history, even more so in this era of Brexit, right-wing rise and xenophobia. On top of that the erin go bragh flag is a belter and both flags are pretty much our colours. If we started associating ourselves with any old struggle and cause (Palestine, Ulster, Basque, Catalan, Communism etc etc) and started belting out the rebs on the terraces flying Starry Ploughs about then aye, its cringey and we become mini Celtic (and that's coming from someone with a keen interest in Irish Republicanism and love a bit of the Wolfe Tones and Christy Moore), that's Celtic identity, they can keep that. BTW i've also no problem with the huns and their identity, I don't agree with their flags, songs and politics but it is there's and if they're happy being a "proud Scottish and British club" they have every right to express that (so long as the line isn't crossed with anti-catholic chanting and flags).

The biggest redneck out the lot is Hertz. A club and fanbase with absolutely no identity of their own they need to blatantly steal it from one of their biggest rivals. Flying a UJ which is the huns colours, flying red hands of ulster with no links at all to N.I, the Lee Rigby flag, Gorgie "Loyal", the billy boys, the Tommy Robinson stickers etc etc, the list goes on. A section of their fanbase is trying so hard to be like Rangers it's cringeworthy. They are mini wannabe huns and that's a fact, and its nothing like us flying a tri-colour. Never let anyone give you the "mini celtic" pish, a 30 second history lesson puts that to bed.

PS we all know why the majority of tri-colours are at Ibrox and Tynie and i've no problem with it. Football rivalries all over the world are built more on football and have history, politics, geography etc involved.

Though it doesn't change my personal opinion on what we as a support should be doing, this absolutely forensically picks to pieces the growing problem at Tynecastle. I wouldn't agree that Hearts don't have an identity, of course they do, but its the same identity as Partick Thistle or Dundee or Aberdeen and a host of other Scottish clubs, an identity to be proud of, just as we are proud of ours. Why then a depressingly sizeable minority of their support should choose to mimic the identity of another Scottish club ( the worst of Scottish clubs ) is something that should be of concern to every Hearts fan.

[Stokesy's on fire]

Hahaha You're right Wolfetones are brilliant live, also have a cracking song called Hibernia ☘


aye it's a brilliant song.

[NAE NOOKIE]

You’ve had an interesting post there mate and then a horror attempt at a point at the end .. the dot net equivalent of a brilliant mazy run followed by a shank....

I presume you are referring to my Nelson Mandela analogy. I agree it is a bit ( lets face it, way ) over the top, and I would agree even a wee bit crass to compare an incredible event in 20th century history to what is in comparison something of little significance in the grand scheme of things.

But I couldn't really think of any better way to try to explain how I view the discussion at hand. What I was trying to illustrate is that I am not arguing against the right of Hibs fans to wave Irish tricolours or Erin go bragh flags … in an ideal world where Scottish football didn't have a sectarian issue nobody would or should care if we fly them or not, including me. The Mandela analogy was simply used as an example of a clear case of having a right to take a particular course of action where nobody could complain if you exercised that right, but refusing to do so in order to at least try to achieve a greater goal.

But the sad fact is that there is a sectarian problem and like it or not our club is seen as being on one side of that issue. As a result whether we like it or not the use of these flags by our support is and will continue to be cited as an example of just another club perpetuating it … the point I am making ( or at least trying to make ) is that far from being an act of appeasement to the west coast and Gorgie bigots as some folk have suggested, a decision by the Hibs support to unilaterally put these flags aside will at least partially go some way towards leaving The Rangers and the minority at Hearts holding the sectarian baby and we can honestly say we are not part of that problem and more to the point be seen to be taking steps to prove that we aren't.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

No problem with either the EGB or Irish flag. Its been part of our history and identity for decades and decades and should be part of it for the next ones too. A football club formed by immigrants, a Scottish club open to all with a hint of Irishness - I love our history, even more so in this era of Brexit, right-wing rise and xenophobia. On top of that the erin go bragh flag is a belter and both flags are pretty much our colours. If we started associating ourselves with any old struggle and cause (Palestine, Ulster, Basque, Catalan, Communism etc etc) and started belting out the rebs on the terraces flying Starry Ploughs about then aye, its cringey and we become mini Celtic (and that's coming from someone with a keen interest in Irish Republicanism and love a bit of the Wolfe Tones and Christy Moore), that's Celtic identity, they can keep that. BTW i've also no problem with the huns and their identity, I don't agree with their flags, songs and politics but it is there's and if they're happy being a "proud Scottish and British club" they have every right to express that (so long as the line isn't crossed with anti-catholic chanting and flags).

The biggest redneck out the lot is Hertz. A club and fanbase with absolutely no identity of their own they need to blatantly steal it from one of their biggest rivals. Flying a UJ which is the huns colours, flying red hands of ulster with no links at all to N.I, the Lee Rigby flag, Gorgie "Loyal", the billy boys, the Tommy Robinson stickers etc etc, the list goes on. A section of their fanbase is trying so hard to be like Rangers it's cringeworthy. They are mini wannabe huns and that's a fact, and its nothing like us flying a tri-colour. Never let anyone give you the "mini celtic" pish, a 30 second history lesson puts that to bed.

PS we all know why the majority of tri-colours are at Ibrox and Tynie and i've no problem with it. Football rivalries all over the world are built more on football and have history, politics, geography etc involved.

Another fine post.

[HibeeHibernian4]

But the sad fact is that there is a sectarian problem and like it or not our club is seen as being on one side of that issue. As a result whether we like it or not the use of these flags by our support is and will continue to be cited as an example of just another club perpetuating it … the point I am making ( or at least trying to make ) is that far from being an act of appeasement to the west coast and Gorgie bigots as some folk have suggested, a decision by the Hibs support to unilaterally put these flags aside will at least partially go some way towards leaving The Rangers and the minority at Hearts holding the sectarian baby and we can honestly say we are not part of that problem and more to the point be seen to be taking steps to prove that we aren't.

I completely get your point, but the reality is that we are not holding the sectarian baby at the moment and we can honestly say that we are not part of that problem right now, and that’s with us flying the occasional EGB or tricolour.

Some Rangers fans believe that this country is being overrun by a Papal conspiracy and refer to the SNP as the SNPira. There is zero point in trying to appease these people or their deluded perceptions, especially by ceasing to do something that isn’t remotely sectarian in the first place.

[Keith_M]

No tricolour


Actually, there were a few, with people that arrived a bit later.


None with the Pope on them, though. They were only in the home end.

[superfurryhibby]

I completely get your point, but the reality is that we are not holding the sectarian baby at the moment and we can honestly say that we are not part of that problem right now, and that’s with us flying the occasional EGB or tricolour.

Some Rangers fans believe that this country is being overrun by a Papal conspiracy and refer to the SNP as the SNPira. There is zero point in trying to appease these people or their deluded perceptions, especially by ceasing to do something that isn’t remotely sectarian in the first place.

I said about 250 comments ago that we have a bigger problem with random racism amongst Hibs fans than sectarianism.

I also fully accept your point about the bigots.

No one has really answered my point that our name, colours and history are an affront to the haters and that the odd imbecile waving a tricolour etc is a mere drop of pesh in the ocean of filth that taints our game. I’m much more concerned about the massed chants from the stands at Ibrox and Tynie, the Orange Walks that are carried out across many of our towns and villages over the summer.

Proportionality.

[CMurdoch]

The sad fact is that there is a sectarian problem in Scottish Football and like it or not our club is perceived by the general public as being on one side of that issue. As a result whether we like it or not the use of these flags by our support, is and will continue to be cited as an example of just another club perpetuating it.

This is pragmatism.
If you can't work with this you will keep our club a part of the public narrative on this issue.

(Boiled down from Nae Nookie post above)

[HibeeHibernian4]

I said about 250 comments ago that we have a bigger problem with random racism amongst Hibs fans than sectarianism.

100% this.

That’s the debate we should be having, because I have been left less than comfortable by a few things I’ve heard in my time of following Hibs, and they’ve all been racist or homophobic, not sectarian.

[CMurdoch]

100% this.

That’s the debate we should be having, because I have been left less than comfortable by a few things I’ve heard in my time of following Hibs, and they’ve all been racist or homophobic, not sectarian.

Is the racist the Skacel and Kingston songs and the homophobic 7 Nation Army song adaption?

[Malthibby]

The sad fact is that there is a sectarian problem in Scottish Football and like it or not our club is perceived by the general public as being on one side of that issue. As a result whether we like it or not the use of these flags by our support, is and will continue to be cited as an example of just another club perpetuating it.

This is pragmatism.
If you can't work with this you will keep our club a part of the public narrative on this issue.

(Boiled down from Nae Nookie post above)

What they both said.
From a Scottish footie perspective, the Irish flag is seen as part of a sectarian problem. We wave it about, we are seen as part of that problem.
It reinforces that irritating notion that we are Celtic's wee brother/cousin; we're a bit like them & there's the proof.
I don't see the big deal in asking the very few Hibs folk who bring them not to bother. The fact that there are so few of them suggests most
Hibbys aren't interested (which I'm personally pleased about because I don't like them. The flags I mean, no idea whether I'd dislike the folk who wave them)
& I think that's because the Irish thing is not relevant to the majority of us.
Our history is important, but it's not represented by the Irish flag, which as someone else has already said wasn't even around when Hibernian started.
It's an easy win, & would make it easier to work on the Bigot Brothers & their sad maroon offspring.

[NAE NOOKIE]

I completely get your point, but the reality is that we are not holding the sectarian baby at the moment and we can honestly say that we are not part of that problem right now, and that’s with us flying the occasional EGB or tricolour.

Some Rangers fans believe that this country is being overrun by a Papal conspiracy and refer to the SNP as the SNPira. There is zero point in trying to appease these people or their deluded perceptions, especially by ceasing to do something that isn’t remotely sectarian in the first place.

Sorry … How can you say you get my point and then post something which makes it look like you are utterly missing it :dunno:

I am not saying that we are part of the sectarian problem, I am saying that we are perceived as being part of it and the flying of the flags in question will only perpetuate that point of view.

As many other posters have pointed out, the FTP / Loyalist elements in Govan and Gorgie will use exactly the same arguments to justify their behaviour, arguments about heritage and culture, and they will call us hypocrites for using exactly the same arguments as they point to the flags we fly to show our heritage and culture while criticising them for their union jacks and red hand of Ulster flags.

The trouble with this argument is that it isn't Hibs supporters who need to be persuaded that we are not a club with a sectarian problem. Folk who follow the club can justifiably say that we do not sing sectarian songs ( the odd isolated idiots aside ) and that we happily accept anybody within our support no matter what religion they are and have done for years.

But time after time in the media we are constantly lumped in with The Rangers, Celtic and Hearts as being the main players in Scotland's sectarian problem …. The media blindly accept the statements of 'whitabootery' from the ultra loyalists and that's how it is reported to the general public … The Rangers, Celtic, Hibs and Hearts .. the 4 clubs at the heart of football's sectarian problem. To anybody in Scottish football or the wider community there are certain symbols they are all aware of which are widely seen as related to sectarianism on the terraces and the Irish tricolour and to a lesser extent Erin go bragh flags are amongst them.

I realise I am not going to persuade you or some other folk on here of the validity of my argument, which can be boiled down to this …. I don't care if we have a right to fly certain flags. I don't care if us stopping doing so will have zero impact on the continuing use of certain flags or symbols or sectarianism by The Rangers or Hearts ….. I simply believe that if we take a step back from Irish tricolours and 'Ireland forever' flags we can rightly say that of the 4 clubs concerned we are the ones prepared to make a sacrifice, which in a right thinking world we shouldn't have to make, in order to prove beyond any doubt whatsoever that we are not sectarian and are prepared to be at the forefront of stamping sectarianism out.

What you refer to as 'appeasement' I see as showing the buggers the way, and if they refuse to follow or deride us for it hell mend them … at least we can say with a clear conscience that we tried and without fear of contradiction that we are on the side of sanity.

Go my way and yes there's a very good chance it wont make a difference. Go your way and its an utter certainty that nothing will change.

[Mick O'Rourke]

What they both said.
From a Scottish footie perspective, the Irish flag is seen as part of a sectarian problem. We wave it about, we are seen as part of that problem.
It reinforces that irritating notion that we are Celtic's wee brother/cousin; we're a bit like them & there's the proof.
I don't see the big deal in asking the very few Hibs folk who bring them not to bother. The fact that there are so few of them suggests most
Hibbys aren't interested (which I'm personally pleased about because I don't like them. The flags I mean, no idea whether I'd dislike the folk who wave them)
& I think that's because the Irish thing is not relevant to the majority of us.
Our history is important, but it's not represented by the Irish flag, which as someone else has already said wasn't even around when Hibernian started.
It's an easy win, & would make it easier to work on the Bigot Brothers & their sad maroon offspring.

If internet/social media was around in the 1950s.this debate could well be about the Harp

The removal of The Harp on the main stand entrance led to some fans not returning to Easter Road.

Many of those fans would have been descendants of Cowgate/Southside families who were around at the Clubs beginnings.

The points indicated in bold above

If others see us a some kind of "wee brother" to Glasgow Celtic.

They do not know our history.

"Irish thing" not relevant?

Our name, history, colours, and badge would suggest otherwise.

The current badge is the finest badge since The Harp badge/emblem of our beginnings.

And i would suggest the majority of fans welcomed that.

The Irish Tricolour predates the founding of our club by around 30 years.

I agree it is a bit daft to deliberately get as close to rAngers/Hertz fans at games to "flaunt" the Irish Flag.

I don t see that as a reason to ban it (the flag)




I remember during my daft teenage years having a tricolour in The Cave.

It was a"home made" flag with a Harp in the centre.

PC Plod entered the Cave on one night game and were removing flags.

Mine was attached to two broom handles
They didn't get the flag that night.

But fair play to him,he put up a good fight !

And i was halfway along Albion Road before he found his hat !!

Flag intact,but for a wee chip on one pole !

[HibeeHibernian4]

Sorry … How can you say you get my point and then post something which makes it look like you are utterly missing it :dunno:

Because we both recognise the problem but we have very different ideas of how to fix it, and that’s okay. I genuinely respect your point of view and you’ve put it forward eloquently, but I just simply disagree.

[oldbutdim]

Sorry … How can you say you get my point and then post something which makes it look like you are utterly missing it :dunno:

I am not saying that we are part of the sectarian problem, I am saying that we are perceived as being part of it and the flying of the flags in question will only perpetuate that point of view.

As many other posters have pointed out, the FTP / Loyalist elements in Govan and Gorgie will use exactly the same arguments to justify their behaviour, arguments about heritage and culture, and they will call us hypocrites for using exactly the same arguments as they point to the flags we fly to show our heritage and culture while criticising them for their union jacks and red hand of Ulster flags.

The trouble with this argument is that it isn't Hibs supporters who need to be persuaded that we are not a club with a sectarian problem. Folk who follow the club can justifiably say that we do not sing sectarian songs ( the odd isolated idiots aside ) and that we happily accept anybody within our support no matter what religion they are and have done for years.

But time after time in the media we are constantly lumped in with The Rangers, Celtic and Hearts as being the main players in Scotland's sectarian problem …. The media blindly accept the statements of 'whitabootery' from the ultra loyalists and that's how it is reported to the general public … The Rangers, Celtic, Hibs and Hearts .. the 4 clubs at the heart of football's sectarian problem. To anybody in Scottish football or the wider community there are certain symbols they are all aware of which are widely seen as related to sectarianism on the terraces and the Irish tricolour and to a lesser extent Erin go bragh flags are amongst them.

I realise I am not going to persuade you or some other folk on here of the validity of my argument, which can be boiled down to this …. I don't care if we have a right to fly certain flags. I don't care if us stopping doing so will have zero impact on the continuing use of certain flags or symbols or sectarianism by The Rangers or Hearts ….. I simply believe that if we take a step back from Irish tricolours and 'Ireland forever' flags we can rightly say that of the 4 clubs concerned we are the ones prepared to make a sacrifice, which in a right thinking world we shouldn't have to make, in order to prove beyond any doubt whatsoever that we are not sectarian and are prepared to be at the forefront of stamping sectarianism out.

What you refer to as 'appeasement' I see as showing the buggers the way, and if they refuse to follow or deride us for it hell mend them … at least we can say with a clear conscience that we tried and without fear of contradiction that we are on the side of sanity.

Go my way and yes there's a very good chance it wont make a difference. Go your way and its an utter certainty that nothing will change.

Persuaded.
:aok:

[AgentDaleCooper]

100% this.

That’s the debate we should be having, because I have been left less than comfortable by a few things I’ve heard in my time of following Hibs, and they’ve all been racist or homophobic, not sectarian.

i can honestly say that i've heard 'dirty orange b******' shouted at rangers fans more than i have heard anything racist in the last ten years. I've not heard any racist chanting since the rudi skacel one tbh. i can't remember the last time i heard something homophobic, which is pretty fantastic now that i think about it.

[CropleyWasGod]

i can honestly say that i've heard 'dirty orange b******' shouted at rangers fans more than i have heard anything racist in the last ten years. I've not heard any racist chanting since the rudi skacel one tbh. i can't remember the last time i heard something homophobic, which is pretty fantastic now that i think about it.Paul Hartley?

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[AgentDaleCooper]

Paul Hartley?

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ah yeah, right you are :aok: still, been a good ten years since we've heard that i think

[Golden Bear]

Its a pity this thread can not sink to the bottom of the friggin ocean. 😡

[NAE NOOKIE]

i can honestly say that i've heard 'dirty orange b******' shouted at rangers fans more than i have heard anything racist in the last ten years. I've not heard any racist chanting since the rudi skacel one tbh. i can't remember the last time i heard something homophobic, which is pretty fantastic now that i think about it.

I honestly cant say I've heard any homophobic chants or the like at ER, though of course you always get isolated incidents as you will at every ground.

Its the same with the hateful 'Edinburgh is wonderful' song …… the last time I heard that sung was outside Hampden before the SC semi final against Hearts, never in my time as a Hibs fan with all of the different issues that has thrown up have I had to look at a group of so called fans ( there was about 20 of them ) and cringe with such extreme embarrassment that they were wearing my clubs colours.

Never heard the song sung since and hopefully I never will again … I regret to this day that I didn't have the guts to confront the *******s, but the Buckfast bottles being passed around and the fact that they didn't look like they could muster an O Level between the lot of them made me think discretion would be the better part of valour

[BarneyHibby]

I watched Man Utd v Juve last night.

I didn’t notice any English or Italian flags being waved in support of their history, origins or country.

Why is it only Irish people that feel the need to do this?Juventus fans are very far-right politics (Like Lazio, Inter Milan, Hellas Verona & many more italian teams). They fly national flags on every game.

[HibeeHibernian4]

Is the racist the Skacel and Kingston songs and the homophobic 7 Nation Army song adaption?

I don’t know if I made it clear or not, but I wasn’t referring to just songs, but shouts made by people standing near me at games or whatever. To quite honest, some of the stuff targeted at Logan last night (while not outright racist) was on dodgy territory, he seemed to be getting it a lot more tight than any other Aberdeen player from a couple of folk near me.

[HibeeHibernian4]

I honestly cant say I've heard any homophobic chants or the like at ER, though of course you always get isolated incidents as you will at every ground.

Its the same with the hateful 'Edinburgh is wonderful' song …… the last time I heard that sung was outside Hampden before the SC semi final against Hearts, never in my time as a Hibs fan with all of the different issues that has thrown up have I had to look at a group of so called fans ( there was about 20 of them ) and cringe with such extreme embarrassment that they were wearing my clubs colours.

Never heard the song sung since and hopefully I never will again … I regret to this day that I didn't have the guts to confront the *******s, but the Buckfast bottles being passed around and the fact that they didn't look like they could muster an O Level between the lot of them made me think discretion would be the better part of valour

Sadly it made a brief appearance among a few idiots sitting and drinking in Athens the night before the Tripoli game this summer. I’m perfectly accepting of the fact that I’m a coward who won’t confront them about it, they didn’t look like the type who’d be very open to debate.

[nic81]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181110/74bafd4c338c8671eee623083c26d1e2.jpg my flag and will be getting this made soon

IMHO this should be the club crest, a thing of beauty if ever I saw one https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181110/0094347b379a2391c71c4d95be007ebe.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[The Harp Awakes]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181110/74bafd4c338c8671eee623083c26d1e2.jpg my flag and will be getting this made soon

IMHO this should be the club crest, a thing of beauty if ever I saw one https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181110/0094347b379a2391c71c4d95be007ebe.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Brilliant flag and badge mate.

Glory Glory to the Hibees.

[BarneyHibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181110/74bafd4c338c8671eee623083c26d1e2.jpg my flag and will be getting this made soon

IMHO this should be the club crest, a thing of beauty if ever I saw one https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181110/0094347b379a2391c71c4d95be007ebe.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkGreat flag & badge :thumbsup:Erin Go Bragh https://vk.com/images/emoji/2618.png GGTTH

[NAE NOOKIE]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181110/74bafd4c338c8671eee623083c26d1e2.jpg my flag and will be getting this made soon

IMHO this should be the club crest, a thing of beauty if ever I saw one https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181110/0094347b379a2391c71c4d95be007ebe.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Seen the bottom one somewhere else and nae offence mate but at first glance it looks like an erect cock cutting a dug in half with a slice of lemon attached to the bottom .. In all honesty I think I prefer our current effort :greengrin

[Smartie]

Seen the bottom one somewhere else and nae offence mate but at first glance it looks like an erect cock cutting a dug in half with a slice of lemon attached to the bottom .. In all honesty I think I prefer our current effort :greengrin

:agree:

If our current effort represents Edinburgh, Leith and our Irish past, I wonder which bizarre incident in our past this one refers to?

[NAE NOOKIE]

:agree:

If our current effort represents Edinburgh, Leith and our Irish past, I wonder which bizarre incident in our past this one refers to?

No idea mate. I presume the dug is an Irish Red Setter, but I have no idea what the tower represents and the last time I looked Celtic had cornered the market in shamrocks :greengrin

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Seen the bottom one somewhere else and nae offence mate but at first glance it looks like an erect cock cutting a dug in half with a slice of lemon attached to the bottom

Terrible film! 😱

[CMurdoch]

No idea mate. I presume the dug is an Irish Red Setter, but I have no idea what the tower represents and the last time I looked Celtic had cornered the market in shamrocks :greengrin

Okay a tower :aok:.
I was thinking it was a road which seemed to be going into heaven which was next to the sun

[AgentDaleCooper]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181110/74bafd4c338c8671eee623083c26d1e2.jpg my flag and will be getting this made soon

IMHO this should be the club crest, a thing of beauty if ever I saw one https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181110/0094347b379a2391c71c4d95be007ebe.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

that badge is both utterly rank and stupid looking, but also overtly religious, with its reference to the road to heaven. not saying it's sectarian, just that it's explicitly religious and can GTF :aok:

it also only has references to our irish history, and not to anything else...are you trolling/joking with this post? genuine question. seems to omit any reference to leith, edinburgh etc, which to many are as big/a bigger factor in their supporting hibs.

p.s. i do actually like the flag - whether i think it's helpful in the current context we've covered in this thread is another issue, but if sectarianism wasn't a problem in our country i would say it was great :aok:

[BullsCloseHibs]

It's difficult to attempt to summarise such a lengthy debate, but the main complaint seems to be that it's the idiots who fly the tricolour who are the problem, rather than the flag itself.

Ok. So there are idiots in the Hibs support (same as every other support). Some are idiots who scream abuse at our own players, others get blootered before the game and annoy the 'normal' fans unfortunate enough to be seated near them, others still might shout occasional racist or sectarian abuse at the opposition. Some idiots will be guilty of a combination of the above, and others will be idiotic in other ways. Some idiots (very few) will carry a tricolour, others will not (and may well be vehemently opposed to the idea of the tricolour).

The truth is that if there is a problem attached to the national flag of Ireland being flown by a tiny minority of Hibs fans (some of whom might well be idiots, but flying the flag is no proof of that), it lies in the reaction of those who seem to hate it. Why any of our own supporters regard it as an issue for us remains beyond me.

A fine post!

[BullsCloseHibs]

See my previous post regarding the game at Tynecastle.
Or alternatively get yourself along to any OF game to see sectarian behaviour in full flow with flags, chanting, gestures, abuse and anything else that can be used to wind up the opposition.

Are you suggesting there isn't a problem within our game?

Would you say that Hearts have a sectarian element within their support?

Seriously, the "prove its sectarian" argument is tiresome. There's a problem, arguing over the semantics of it is missing the point. And to deny there's an issue is pretty blinkered. It's amplified when it's Celtic and Rangers. It's on a much lower level when it's Hibs and Hearts (but still there).

I think what angers a lot of people, Hibs fans and Irish Hibs fans/Irish people, is the Tri colours association with the word sectarianism. The mere words Tri colour in this country of ours always conjures up the word sectarianism. It's not right.

[oldbutdim]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181110/74bafd4c338c8671eee623083c26d1e2.jpg my flag and will be getting this made soon

IMHO this should be the club crest, a thing of beauty if ever I saw one https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181110/0094347b379a2391c71c4d95be007ebe.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The flag is quite imaginative and I quite like it.
The 'crest' is far from a 'thing of beauty' it looks like a primary school kid has drawn it. It's awful.

[nic81]

The flag is quite imaginative and I quite like it.
The 'crest' is far from a 'thing of beauty' it looks like a primary school kid has drawn it. It's awful.


Be a boring world if we all agreed[emoji106][emoji2532]


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[Scotty Leither]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181110/74bafd4c338c8671eee623083c26d1e2.jpg my flag and will be getting this made soon

IMHO this should be the club crest, a thing of beauty if ever I saw one https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181110/0094347b379a2391c71c4d95be007ebe.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As someone with Scots/Irish roots going back to the Cowgate and beyond, I think your flag's no' bad.

As for the badge, what connections have Hibs ever had to the Girl Guides? 😁

[oldbutdim]

Be a boring world if we all agreed[emoji106][emoji2532]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Certainly would.

I'm guessing you are a fan of dachshunds although I don't get the Hibs reference there.


I love the current badge to be honest, and hope it never changes.

[nic81]

Certainly would.

I'm guessing you are a fan of dachshunds although I don't get the Hibs reference there.


I love the current badge to be honest, and hope it never changes.

Pretty sure it’s meant to be an Irish wolfhound[emoji102] plain harp would be good for the badge, never gonna please all of the masses all of the time


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[Brizo]

Pretty sure it’s meant to be an Irish wolfhound[emoji102] plain harp would be good for the badge, never gonna please all of the masses all of the time


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Although I said I was out just popping back on with some historical clarification.

It is indeed an Irish wolfhound and not a dachshund :greengrin

The obelisk is in County Armagh and is to commemorate St Patrick.

The badge appeared on a plate commemorating an early Hibs success. It was also a seal that was used on letters and such like in the clubs very earliest years when the football team was just one of many social activities run by St Patricks' Catholic Young Mens Society for its congregation. Given that context its no surprise it features the obelisk etc

Its a very obscure emblem which surprisingly found its way onto a number of Toffs tops. The photo looks like its taken from one of them ?

[NAE NOOKIE]

I think what angers a lot of people, Hibs fans and Irish Hibs fans/Irish people, is the Tri colours association with the word sectarianism. The mere words Tri colour in this country of ours always conjures up the word sectarianism. It's not right.

You are correct mate …. it isn't right.

But as things stand the flag is associated with Scottish football's sectarian problem and in that context to set it aside, perhaps not forever, would be one step in a long road to hopefully putting a stop to it. As I have said, even if it doesn't it would go a long way towards showing that our assertion that we are not part of the sectarian problem is being backed up not just by noble words, but in my opinion even nobler actions.

We can already challenge people to provide proof of sectarian songs being sung at Easter Road ( by Hibs fans at least ) in the sure and certain knowledge that they wont be able to, the odd isolated incident by a few hard of thinking folk aside …. throw in the same certainty with symbols that are perceived to be part of the problem and we can justifiably say we are not part of sectarianism. That would open the door for outside observers to point the finger in other directions and say 'they can do it, why cant you?'

The only exception I would make is for folk like the Dublin Hibbies ….. I can see absolutely no problem if they were to bring a tricolour to ER with Dublin Hibs written on it .. there is no way that could be seen as sectarian, at least not in the opinion of anybody with a modicum of common sense.

[Just Alf]

You are correct mate …. it isn't right.

But as things stand the flag is associated with Scottish football's sectarian problem and in that context to set it aside, perhaps not forever, would be one step in a long road to hopefully putting a stop to it. As I have said, even if it doesn't it would go a long way towards showing that our assertion that we are not part of the sectarian problem is being backed up not just by noble words, but in my opinion even nobler actions.

We can already challenge people to provide proof of sectarian songs being sung at Easter Road ( by Hibs fans at least ) in the sure and certain knowledge that they wont be able to, the odd isolated incident by a few hard of thinking folk aside …. throw in the same certainty with symbols that are perceived to be part of the problem and we can justifiably say we are not part of sectarianism. That would open the door for outside observers to point the finger in other directions and say 'they can do it, why cant you?'

The only exception I would make is for folk like the Dublin Hibbies ….. I can see absolutely no problem if they were to bring a tricolour to ER with Dublin Hibs written on it .. there is no way that could be seen as sectarian, at least not in the opinion of anybody with a modicum of common sense.Really good post and sums it up perfectly for me.

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