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Sylar
01-11-2018, 09:40 AM
I've alluded to this in a few posts lately, but I'm really tired of how badly football fans appear to be conducting themselves in Scotland right now.

Hearts fans and Celtc fans disgraced themselves at the weekend. Hearts fans and our fans disgraced themselves last night. There's been numerous other instances this year (Rangers fans in Glasgow before their European game against that Croatian side, trouble in Dundee earlier this season (can't remember who they were playing at that time), a constant upsurge in flares, missiles (Livingston vs Rangers).

There's been an upsurge in some of the downright nastiness I've heard when I've been at the odd game this season too, and I've sadly heard sectarian, political, racial and sexuality slurs being hurled at opposition players, coaches and fans, and even directed at some of their own players, with much more vitriol than I've experienced in the past (for clarity, the games I've been to are all pretty random and this isn't just the Hibs support).

I'm too young to remember the 70s and 80s, which I'm assured were far worse with running battles between casual groups, but the past few years I can't help but feel there's been a significant deterioration in the attitudes and behaviours of football fans in this country. And I genuinely had been starting to believe things were improving in our game a few years back too.

So what's the solution? I've said in other threads, this is the ONLY sport where this type of behaviour seems to be widely accepted and routinely happens (I'm aware there's evidence of mass rioting in the NHL for example after teams have lost a major final - that's not the type of thing I'm referring to here). What is it about football that attracts, retains and almost accepts this type of behaviour, and what the **** do we need to do before we change our ways? I've just read the thread from Wookie about his daughter getting hit by a flare at the derby last night, and read a few accounts of Hearts fans also being walloped with coins, lighters etc last night - I love that a few posters responded wishing the girl well and hoping it wouldn't put her off the football, but this type of thing isn't exactly rare anymore - it's predictable, and I wouldn't blame the wee lass one bit if she thought "**** this" and found other ways to spend her Saturdays (Sundays/Tuesdays/Wednesdays/Fridays...).

The authorities treat fans like **** because there's a pattern of fans acting like ****. And it's getting worse rather than better. Does someone literally have to die before we change the way we behave at football?

Alcohol?! **** off.

Sylar
01-11-2018, 09:44 AM
I didn't add to the existing thread on "Fans Behaviour" as I felt this was a more general look at the game, not JUST the behaviour from last night.

If admins feel it deserves to be included there, I've no problem if you chose to merge it. :aok:

Jones28
01-11-2018, 09:45 AM
Good post. Think I must be around the same age as you, and I too feel that there has ban a real uspsurge in incidents around the game.

My_Wife_Camille
01-11-2018, 09:51 AM
Off to the rugby with you. You can hold hands with the opposition fans and applaud when they score all you want there.

Oh, an don’t forget your half and half scarf!

flash
01-11-2018, 09:56 AM
Off to the rugby with you. You can hold hands with the opposition fans and applaud when they score all you want there.

Oh, an don’t forget your half and half scarf!

Relentless.

Sylar
01-11-2018, 09:56 AM
Off to the rugby with you. You can hold hands with the opposition fans and applaud when they score all you want there.

Oh, an don’t forget your half and half scarf!

Gladly. A sport when I can passionately support my team, have a beer and enjoy the game without fear of folk like you who seem to think that violence, abusive behaviour and downright neanderthal attitudes add anything to our game.

If you seriously think I'm out of line in pointing out just how socially unacceptable these behaviours are, you're absolutely part of the problem and don't belong anywhere near a football stadium.

H113EE5
01-11-2018, 10:00 AM
Gladly. A sport when I can passionately support my team, have a beer and enjoy the game without fear of folk like you who seem to think that violence, abusive behaviour and downright neanderthal attitudes add anything to our game.

If you seriously think I'm out of line in pointing out just how socially unacceptable these behaviours are, you're absolutely part of the problem and don't belong anywhere near a football stadium.


Totally agree. God knows what it'll be like if there reintroduce alcohol to football stadia. Wait till the next derby played after an afternoon on the drink for these crazies.

The Green Goblin
01-11-2018, 10:02 AM
Off to the rugby with you. You can hold hands with the opposition fans and applaud when they score all you want there.

Oh, an don’t forget your half and half scarf!

You just can’t help yourself, can you? So predictable. So dull.

bingo70
01-11-2018, 10:05 AM
Gladly. A sport when I can passionately support my team, have a beer and enjoy the game without fear of folk like you who seem to think that violence, abusive behaviour and downright neanderthal attitudes add anything to our game.

If you seriously think I'm out of line in pointing out just how socially unacceptable these behaviours are, you're absolutely part of the problem and don't belong anywhere near a football stadium.

But this type of behaviour has been the case at football for a long time before you came along, why does it need to change now to suit you?

With football comes tribalism and it's part of the game i enjoy. Obviously there's lines that get crossed sometimes and it's not good when it does but the fact that the behaviour is normally right on the brink of being acceptable or not is part of the appeal.

I don't always mean some of the stuff that gets shouted, Hearts fans aren't all *******s and i don't actually hate them all. There's an element of escapism in there too, you have to behave in a professional way all week at work so the football can be the time for a bit of a release from real life.

I can see why Rugby is more appealing to some for the reasons you have stated, it's not for me though and i certainly wouldn't want a rugby club atmosphere at a football match.

patlowe
01-11-2018, 10:09 AM
Agree with the OP. I've found the last few days pretty deflating TBH in terms of the behaviour seen at the games/outside and that's not to have a go at any particular group of fans. I just can't get my head around the mindset of the person that can't resist the temptation to throw glass bottles, strike out at keepers, throw coins, fight in front of children etc etc. This goes way beyond football though in terms of why people act this way and we are miles away from solving it.

BullsCloseHibs
01-11-2018, 10:15 AM
Should be easy enough to grass the xxxx up. He'll get caught.

Sylar
01-11-2018, 10:21 AM
But this type of behaviour has been the case at football for a long time before you came along, why does it need to change now to suit you?

It's not just me it needs to change to suit - it needs to change to suit every single innocent person that's been caught up in some of the increasingly toxic behaviours recently - the woman pelted with a beer bottle on Saturday, the linesman getting coined at the Livingston vs Rangers game earlier in the season, the wee lass getting hit by a flare last night, the Croatian guys that were stabbed before watching their team play a European game in Glasgow. None of this has ever been acceptable (in fact, most of it strikes me as the definition of "illegal"), but it's becoming increasingly present all over our game.


With football comes tribalism and it's part of the game i enjoy. Obviously there's lines that get crossed sometimes and it's not good when it does but the fact that the behaviour is normally right on the brink of being acceptable or not is part of the appeal.

It's no secret (I've said it in other threads), but I view the extreme aspect of that tribalism as being a major driver for some of this behaviour. You're right, there is something enjoyable about that tribalism at therapeutic levels, but the lines are getting crossed far too often, and with much more vigour than I can recall in recent times. That knife-edge is definitely not why I go to football.


I don't always mean some of the stuff that gets shouted, Hearts fans aren't all *******s and i don't actually hate them all. There's an element of escapism in there too, you have to behave in a professional way all week at work so the football can be the time for a bit of a release from real life.

I don't think that washes, and I don't buy into the 90 minute bigot concept either (not suggesting for a second you're a bigot, but I hear a lot of OF fans use the same line of argument when they're called out - "I don't really hate kaffliks, I just hate those ****** *******s over there and it annoys them".). There's a difference between escapism and outlet of energies/frustrations and having to resort to throwing punches, missiles, homophobic/racist/sectarian slurs. And too often fans in this country are resorting to the latter. Football games are part of "real life", and you should be expected to behave accordingly. That doesn't mean you can't shout and get riled up about the game while shouting profanities at players, coaches, officials and opposition fans - but the nature of some of these shouts have become utterly unacceptable in the eyes of the law, yet still seem to exist widely in a football crowd.

Pretty Boy
01-11-2018, 10:24 AM
I love the tribalism of football. I love that crackling atmosphere built on years of tradition, antipathy and, for lack of a better word, hatred. The idea of sitting among opposing fans and applauding an opposition goal is totally alien to me and if football goes down that route I'd be out. I like the tension of a derby or a game against Rangers and I love the highs of a win or the total despair after a defeat. I love that blurred line of what's acceptable or not. Things you would never think or say in everyday life come to the fore at a football game, often aimed at people you work and socialise with every other day of the year.

In saying all that there is a line and attacking opposing players and coaches is just wrong. I wonder if it's a coincidence that 'bad behaviour' has rose to prominence again in recent years and that the casual scene took off in a big way in the 80s and early 90s. Neither was or is a pleasant time to be a young, working class guy and there's a lot of frustration; maybe football is just an outlet? That's maybe overthinking it but it's too easy just to say 'football fans are bad' or whatever.

YanYansen
01-11-2018, 10:33 AM
I wonder if it's a coincidence that 'bad behaviour' has rose to prominence again in recent years and that the casual scene took off in a big way in the 80s and early 90s. Neither was or is a pleasant time to be a young, working class guy and there's a lot of frustration; maybe football is just an outlet? That's maybe overthinking it but it's too easy just to say 'football fans are bad' or whatever.

I think that's a very good point, like.

It's definitely an outlet for me, and I'm in my 40s. Probably the major difference there is that I had like 4 pints pre-match and then was absolutely drained and tired directly after it. 20 years ago, I'd have been seriously on it, before and after.

Phil MaGlass
01-11-2018, 10:34 AM
I have noticed it myself, the upsurge in trouble, seems to be acceptable or less is being done to eradicate it. In the eyes of the law you can attack football managers and bacically get away with it.
In my younger years I never shied away from bother at the fitba, and when caught I expected a swift kicking or charged from the polis.
Nowadays I believe theres alot of internet influence, people are being regularly wound up through forums and social media. It also does not help that clubs like hertz turn a blind eye to their growing bigot band, which also ignites other fans.Were by no means angels BUT, why is it that these things are always happening in and around tynie, it cannot be coincidence.
Their terracing is too close to the pitch, maybe they should be told to leave 1 row of front seats vacant for games, because they cant seem to control their own or visiting fans.
The fact Lennon was hit by a coin is only going to make matters worse, but yes football bother, imo, it is on the rise.

Liam6270
01-11-2018, 10:36 AM
Off to the rugby with you. You can hold hands with the opposition fans and applaud when they score all you want there.

Oh, an don’t forget your half and half scarf!

Haha brilliant

Sylar
01-11-2018, 10:40 AM
I love the tribalism of football. I love that crackling atmosphere built on years of tradition, antipathy and, for lack of a better word, hatred. The idea of sitting among opposing fans and applauding an opposition goal is totally alien to me and if football goes down that route I'd be out. I like the tension of a derby or a game against Rangers and I love the highs of a win or the total despair after a defeat. I love that blurred line of what's acceptable or not. Things you would never think or say in everyday life come to the fore at a football game, often aimed at people you work and socialise with every other day of the year.

In saying all that there is a line and attacking opposing players and coaches is just wrong. I wonder if it's a coincidence that 'bad behaviour' has rose to prominence again in recent years and that the casual scene took off in a big way in the 80s and early 90s. Neither was or is a pleasant time to be a young, working class guy and there's a lot of frustration; maybe football is just an outlet? That's maybe overthinking it but it's too easy just to say 'football fans are bad' or whatever.

I think most would, and that's 100% not what I'm advocating. I'm also not advocating the prawn sandwich approach where everyone sits on their arse at the games, quietly applauds good things on the pitch. The anxiety of a matchday, the atmosphere and the highs and lows of the outcomes/events on the park are integral to the game. But some of the stuff we've seen increasingly recently is well beyond the pale. I'm not sure if it's still a class thing now, but I definitely don't encounter this type of nonsense in my everyday life or any of the other sporting events I'm fortunate enough to attend.

And I'm absolutely not suggesting that ALL football fans are horrible - but there definitely has been a significant rise in the amount of horrible fans in the past few seasons.

Northernhibee
01-11-2018, 10:47 AM
I also love to some extent the tribalism of football and winding up the opposition. It’s what we seen Lennon do last night when the goal was disallowed. Gloating, bragging rights, all that stuff.

When there’s a good chance of being hit by a coin or glass bottle or bunch of pubeless casuals after a game desperate to make a name for themselves then that’s an entirely different story. Last night was a ***** game of football that reflected badly on both clubs as we all know what the talking points are and they’re not about the football.

I don’t want a second old firm derby. I want the best Edinburgh derby.

Diclonius
01-11-2018, 10:49 AM
I love the tribalism of football. I love that crackling atmosphere built on years of tradition, antipathy and, for lack of a better word, hatred. The idea of sitting among opposing fans and applauding an opposition goal is totally alien to me and if football goes down that route I'd be out. I like the tension of a derby or a game against Rangers and I love the highs of a win or the total despair after a defeat. I love that blurred line of what's acceptable or not. Things you would never think or say in everyday life come to the fore at a football game, often aimed at people you work and socialise with every other day of the year.

In saying all that there is a line and attacking opposing players and coaches is just wrong. I wonder if it's a coincidence that 'bad behaviour' has rose to prominence again in recent years and that the casual scene took off in a big way in the 80s and early 90s. Neither was or is a pleasant time to be a young, working class guy and there's a lot of frustration; maybe football is just an outlet? That's maybe overthinking it but it's too easy just to say 'football fans are bad' or whatever.

Exactly.

The tribalism of football is what brought me to it in the first place, but there is a line and that line was crossed last night.

Lendo
01-11-2018, 11:00 AM
But this type of behaviour has been the case at football for a long time before you came along, why does it need to change now to suit you?

With football comes tribalism and it's part of the game i enjoy. Obviously there's lines that get crossed sometimes and it's not good when it does but the fact that the behaviour is normally right on the brink of being acceptable or not is part of the appeal.

I don't always mean some of the stuff that gets shouted, Hearts fans aren't all *******s and i don't actually hate them all. There's an element of escapism in there too, you have to behave in a professional way all week at work so the football can be the time for a bit of a release from real life.

I can see why Rugby is more appealing to some for the reasons you have stated, it's not for me though and i certainly wouldn't want a rugby club atmosphere at a football match.

I know exactly what you mean. I sit at my desk all week bored and behaving. When the weekend finally comes I just can't wait to get drunk and chuck a glass bottle at a child. :rolleyes:

Jamesie
01-11-2018, 11:03 AM
Off to the rugby with you. You can hold hands with the opposition fans and applaud when they score all you want there.

Oh, an don’t forget your half and half scarf!

Thanks for your approval: can't wait for the Autumn Internationals!

My_Wife_Camille
01-11-2018, 11:08 AM
Is it really getting worse? I’m not sure it is.

Imo the only difference is that it’s becoming more visible because of social media, at least when it comes to the off field stuff.

On the pitch we’ve had this sort of thing forever. A Hibs fan entering the pitch to confront the ref in ‘03, Hearts fan coming on the pitch to go for Riordan in ‘09, Hearts fan attacking Neil Lennon in the dug out around 2011 all spring to mind. You also have Dallas being hit by a coin in the late 90’s.

In all my years of going I’ve never been to a derby where there hasn’t been a shower of coins/juice/lighters raining down on a goalie or a player taking a corner. Actually hitting a moving object with a coin isn’t exactly the easiest thing to do (no I’m not talking from experience) so I think it’s less to do with the behaviour getting worse and more to do with someone getting ‘lucky’ and actually managing to hit their target for a change.

I remember a game at Tynie in 2005 (Shiels winner). Shortly after we scored an empty quarter bottle of vodka smashed in my row having been thrown from the home end. With it being pre-social media, the only people that ever knew where the individuals that me and the people around me told. Last season the same thing happened and there were pages and pages about it on here and on kickback and the picture of the bottle was shared 1000’s times on twitter. That’s the difference imo.

MartinfaePorty
01-11-2018, 11:09 AM
I used to go to nearly every game from the late-80 to early 2000s and, with a couple of exceptions, any trouble happened outside the stadium. I thought all seater stadia had killed this sort of thing, given it made it easier for culprits to be identified. Also, when Niemi had a half eaten pie chucked at him, Hibs fans were appalled and quickly pointed out the thrower to stewards and police. No idea why this sort of behaviour had become par for the course.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

Killiehibbie
01-11-2018, 11:18 AM
These incidents have been happening since before any of us were even born. Young guys go to football, get drunk and behave badly. Maybe it's just a form of release for angry young men.

Jamesie
01-11-2018, 11:29 AM
These incidents have been happening since before any of us were even born. Young guys go to football, get drunk and behave badly. Maybe it's just a form of release for angry young men.

It's not just getting drunk now though and that's half the problem. The fact that there were literally queues for the toilet cubicles when I was having a pee at a urinal, with no one seeming to spend more than a few seconds in said cubicles, doesn't help either. Worrying the way in which cocaine is seen as a normal part of a night out for many young men these days and just adds to the toxicity of a game like last night.

Northernhibee
01-11-2018, 11:32 AM
It's not just getting drunk now though and that's half the problem. The fact that there were literally queues for the toilet cubicles when I was having a pee at a urinal, with no one seeming to spend more than a few seconds in said cubicles, doesn't help either. Worrying the way in which cocaine is seen as a normal part of a night out for many young men these days and just adds to the toxicity of a game like last night.

I won’t say the company but within the last eighteen months I’ve had a manager recommended cocaine to help boost my sales figures. Out of sales now but it’s endemic and a scourge on our society.

Jamesie
01-11-2018, 11:32 AM
I wonder if it's a coincidence that 'bad behaviour' has rose to prominence again in recent years and that the casual scene took off in a big way in the 80s and early 90s. Neither was or is a pleasant time to be a young, working class guy and there's a lot of frustration; maybe football is just an outlet? That's maybe overthinking it but it's too easy just to say 'football fans are bad' or whatever.

I have been wondering for a while how long until we see a Guardian feature along these lines!

ED Hibee
01-11-2018, 11:35 AM
These incidents have been happening since before any of us were even born. Young guys go to football, get drunk and behave badly. Maybe it's just a form of release for angry young men.

I totally agree. I started going as a kid in 80s and there was way more bother at games then, also the games where there was bother were often the most memorable games in terms of atmosphere (derbies around takeover/Hibs celtic tear gas match etc).

The difference now is that everything is filmed and sensationalised now. Also with all seater stadiums and allocated seats there are more innocent folk caught up in it. Back in the 80s if you didn’t want bother you positioned yourself right in the middle of terracing furthest from the home support. Now fans don’t have that option and you do have incidents where kids/families can be positioned closest to the idiots that go to a game just to antagonise the opposing fans.

Not sure what the answer is but am sure the authorities will use this as an opportunity to try and enforce the prawn sandwich half and half scarf ideal upon us.

ED Hibee
01-11-2018, 11:48 AM
I used to go to nearly every game from the late-80 to early 2000s and, with a couple of exceptions, any trouble happened outside the stadium. I thought all seater stadia had killed this sort of thing, given it made it easier for culprits to be identified. Also, when Niemi had a half eaten pie chucked at him, Hibs fans were appalled and quickly pointed out the thrower to stewards and police. No idea why this sort of behaviour had become par for the course.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

My abiding memory of sitting in the Cowshed as a kid in 80s and early 90s was seeing streams of folk being carted out the ground by the police during matches with Hearts/Celtic/Rangers and Aberdeen to a lesser extent, don't think trouble was confined to outside the stadium in those days and is certainly not worse today than it was. Difference then was that everything was not filmed and it was a lot easier to avoid if you weren't interested

JeMeSouviens
01-11-2018, 11:49 AM
I'm not old enough to remember unsegregated crowds but I can tell you the days of standing terracing and the big fence were far worse. The good thing about then was you only had to endure it if you actively went to that part of the terrace. I think the fact that innocent bystanders have the bad luck of getting seats in among the numpties is causing issues.

AgentDaleCooper
01-11-2018, 11:51 AM
But this type of behaviour has been the case at football for a long time before you came along, why does it need to change now to suit you?

With football comes tribalism and it's part of the game i enjoy. Obviously there's lines that get crossed sometimes and it's not good when it does but the fact that the behaviour is normally right on the brink of being acceptable or not is part of the appeal.

I don't always mean some of the stuff that gets shouted, Hearts fans aren't all *******s and i don't actually hate them all. There's an element of escapism in there too, you have to behave in a professional way all week at work so the football can be the time for a bit of a release from real life.

I can see why Rugby is more appealing to some for the reasons you have stated, it's not for me though and i certainly wouldn't want a rugby club atmosphere at a football match.

it is getting noticeably worse at present. do you suggest nothing should be done about that? one of my best mates, a jambo, got jumped - completely unprovoked - by celtic fans after the game and was left unconscious in a pool of blood. makes me utterly sick. it feels like it could easily happen to any fan right now though, in a big enough game. i don't see that as an acceptable bi-product of an edgy atmosphere.

Northernhibee
01-11-2018, 11:53 AM
it is getting noticeably worse at present. do you suggest nothing should be done about that? one of my best mates, a jambo, got jumped - completely unprovoked - by celtic fans after the game and was left unconscious in a pool of blood. makes me utterly sick. it feels like it could easily happen to any fan right now though, in a big enough game. i don't see that as an acceptable bi-product of an edgy atmosphere.

I don’t wear football colours to games anymore because of the amount of wannabe hard men twats. Some wee **** spat at me waking back from Pittodrie and that was on Union St, not even down a side street or that.

Cameron1875
01-11-2018, 11:54 AM
It's not drink which is increasing the trouble seen at football games. But yeah the police can focus on banning drink from buses etc and stopping alcohol at games all they want.

The real problem is right under their nose...

Killiehibbie
01-11-2018, 11:55 AM
It's not just getting drunk now though and that's half the problem. The fact that there were literally queues for the toilet cubicles when I was having a pee at a urinal, with no one seeming to spend more than a few seconds in said cubicles, doesn't help either. Worrying the way in which cocaine is seen as a normal part of a night out for many young men these days and just adds to the toxicity of a game like last night.I don't know what the figures are but I read that we have some ridiculous amount of cocaine users per head of population. I lost count of the number of lines I was offered the last time we won the cup

Northernhibee
01-11-2018, 11:58 AM
It's not drink which is increasing the trouble seen at football games. But yeah the police can focus on banning drink from buses etc and stopping alcohol at games all they want.

The real problem is right under their nose...

In a world where young men should be hitting the gym, looking good, wearing designer labels, work hard and play hard and to man up when it gets too much for them rather than talk about it, it’s no wonder cocaine use is rocketing.

The era of extreme masculinity is so responsible for a huge deal of issues.

Jumbo
01-11-2018, 11:59 AM
I was at Stockholm derby last weekend and what i noticed was there wasn’t the hatred between rival fans, though still cracking atmosphere created by both sets of ultras, and no segregation after game outside stadium. Might’ve been fact game was a pretty dull uneventful 0-0 so nobody wound up ?

NAE NOOKIE
01-11-2018, 12:50 PM
Some really good points being made on this thread.

IMO there's a bit of cause and effect here that has lead to the current apparent upsurge in the sort of stuff we saw last night at Tynecastle. For a good few years now football generally has been ( for want of a better expression ) under attack from politicians and certain elements of the media who would love nothing better than to see it become what Rugby is, with the tribalism and passion purged from it ….. A process which has been ongoing since the Hillsborough disaster.

More than ever before corporate is king, especially in the English top flight, where money is the be all and end all and football has become practically a tourist industry, with the regular traditional supporters beginning to feel like they are an afterthought …. nothing encapsulates this more IMO than seeing half and half scarves at a Manchester derby a few seasons ago …. the very thought of that 20 years ago would have brought a fan out in a cold sweat. If anybody remembers Old Trafford and its Stretford end from the 70s the suggestion that 40 odd years later that clubs manager would more than once feel compelled to bemoan the lack of atmosphere inside the stadium would have got you sectioned.

In Scotland we don't have that corporate culture, at least not yet, but IMO for different reasons the fans in this country have over the last 5 or so years seen what our game was becoming and decided to react to it. The young kids coming up going to the games with their mum and dad or whoever were seeing what I was seeing … half empty stadiums with the fans sitting on their hands and anybody who tried to start a song being made to feel like somebody raising their voice in a library or that they had sworn in church.

That reaction has manifested itself in groups like 'Since 1875' and similar 'ultras' groups at Motherwell and now more recently Hearts. The inherent danger in this was always going to be that the laudable efforts of these groups to inject a bit of life and colour back into our game would spawn a resurgence of the uglier side of football 'culture' and that is what we are now seeing, from younger folk who themselves probably aren't part of the 'ultras' groups themselves.

What we have to be careful of here is that we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. It would be nothing short of tragic if any sort of clampdown on the sort of thing we saw last night lead to clubs making like difficult for the likes of Since 1875 or even the Hearts group. Scottish football was absolutely in desperate need of having noise and colour brought back to its stadiums and for me that input by these groups is making Scottish football a far better experience and they should be encouraged …. but what needs nipped in the bud straight away is any sign that sectarianism is getting a foothold in the ultras groups, which unfortunately seems to be in evidence with the Hearts one …. leave the Union Jacks at home lads, and in all honesty for the good of everybody I would like to see tricolours left out of any Since 1875 stuff as well, I don't care if it is a reflection of our clubs roots either.

That's my take on it ….. No sport in the world exists on tribalism like football does and in the balance it has made the game what it is and why its so exciting, to sanitise it out of the game would be nothing short of cultural vandalism and the day I have to sit at a derby and applaud 'that wonderful goal by the Hearts striker' while waving my half and half Edinburgh derby scarf will be the day I stop going.

patlowe
01-11-2018, 01:06 PM
That tension between enjoying the more heated and tribal side of football in this country and the potential negative outcomes is worth debating. If we are saying it is a necessary and enjoyable part of the game (and the latter I would have to admit is often true) then we all really need to ask ourselves what behaviour inevitably resulting from this we are willing to accept or excuse as a by-product. It's a tension that sometimes comes up in the media (eg pundits saying 'well the atmosphere is what makes the old firm game what it is') but we never really interrogate it too far as the moral dilemma seems just that bit too challenging for us as a sport and society.

Jones28
01-11-2018, 04:16 PM
Off to the rugby with you. You can hold hands with the opposition fans and applaud when they score all you want there.

Oh, an don’t forget your half and half scarf!

Man you are ****ing boring.

basehibby
01-11-2018, 04:37 PM
Off to the rugby with you. You can hold hands with the opposition fans and applaud when they score all you want there.

Oh, an don’t forget your half and half scarf!

What an idiotic excuse for a post.

Chucking coins, lighters, flares etc at opposition fans or players is in no way acceptable - it's what stupid ignorant ****bags do. There is plenty room for atmosphere and rivalry without this sort of act which should by rights see the perpetrators banned from football altogether.

basehibby
01-11-2018, 04:43 PM
But this type of behaviour has been the case at football for a long time before you came along, why does it need to change now to suit you?

With football comes tribalism and it's part of the game i enjoy. Obviously there's lines that get crossed sometimes and it's not good when it does but the fact that the behaviour is normally right on the brink of being acceptable or not is part of the appeal.

I don't always mean some of the stuff that gets shouted, Hearts fans aren't all *******s and i don't actually hate them all. There's an element of escapism in there too, you have to behave in a professional way all week at work so the football can be the time for a bit of a release from real life.

I can see why Rugby is more appealing to some for the reasons you have stated, it's not for me though and i certainly wouldn't want a rugby club atmosphere at a football match.

Yes - we all remember the 80s and early 90s when attendances plumetted in inverse proportion to the rise in violence at football. People have started coming back in numbers now and part of the reason is because all seater stadia make watching football safer (yes I know the terraces were fun but that is a fact). The kind of braindead ****ers that chuck coins, lighters, whatever and want to bring sectarianism and pish like that back need banning not apologising for. End of.

Brizo
01-11-2018, 04:50 PM
Policing of stadiums has more or less been devolved to minimum wage stewards and judging from what ive seen at various games and from what ive read on here about last night , Police Scotland seem unwilling / unable to intervene to maintain order in the stands.

There appears to be a policy of retrospective policing where the troubles allowed to run its course and CCTV is then used to track down the culprits days / weeks later. That doesn't help decent fans at the time who find themselves beside our pished and coked neds or in the firing line of the Hertz pished and coked up neds.

It means that with no tangible police presence in the stands and no apparent inclination on their part to wade in a la 70s and huckle troublemakers, the neds will play up to the max gambling that they wont be caught on the telly.

As to why its resurfacing I happen to think trouble at the football comes in cycles and after a post casual period of relative quiet, a new generation of teenagers are possibly finding trouble at football something they want to get involved in.

Like others I don't think you can underestimate the effect of coke when combined with drink and teenage stupidity.

I think policing strategies need to be amended to combat this trend and that stewards cant and shouldn't be expected to "police" games like last nights. Whether Police Scotland have the resources to properly police stadiums and safeguard the decent fans in attendance is a different matter

Killiehibbie
01-11-2018, 06:51 PM
Yes - we all remember the 80s and early 90s when attendances plumetted in inverse proportion to the rise in violence at football. People have started coming back in numbers now and part of the reason is because all seater stadia make watching football safer (yes I know the terraces were fun but that is a fact). The kind of braindead ****ers that chuck coins, lighters, whatever and want to bring sectarianism and pish like that back need banning not apologising for. End of.
I would say there was more trouble on the terraces in the 70's than the 80's or 90's.

brog
01-11-2018, 07:07 PM
Exactly.

The tribalism of football is what brought me to it in the first place, but there is a line and that line was crossed last night.


That line is crossed in every single game involving the uglies from Glasgow but no one is ever going to call them on it. 2 Croatian fans were stabbed outside Ibrox 3 months ago. That far more serious incident attracted far less attention from the mainstream media than last night's nonsense. Last night was inexcusable but while we stand by & allow 40,000 plus people to bellow out songs of hate every weekend in Glasgow, then all authority is eroded. Football is only the outlet for a society problem in Scotland.

brog
01-11-2018, 07:14 PM
It's not drink which is increasing the trouble seen at football games. But yeah the police can focus on banning drink from buses etc and stopping alcohol at games all they want.

The real problem is right under their nose...

I said the same in Jonnyboys match review thread. This is a huge social problem. I was at Sandown races in April & it was almost impossible to access the toilets because of the large number of young men blocking the entrance while queuing for a cubicle, & certainly not for a Tom Kite!

heid the baw
01-11-2018, 07:38 PM
One of the issues is around people's expectations of today's football. Edinburgh clubs massively underperform compared to the 40's 50's but there is still a big team mentality. What is left are a few high stakes games which get hyped out of all proportion. Edinburgh derbies make hee haw of a difference to who wins the league. The football is desperate because neither team wants to lose. Some fans can't handle this and act like idiots. It's all a bit sad when you step back and see it for what it is. Certainly not worth a criminal record or hurting a fellow citizen

Skol
01-11-2018, 08:03 PM
It's not just getting drunk now though and that's half the problem. The fact that there were literally queues for the toilet cubicles when I was having a pee at a urinal, with no one seeming to spend more than a few seconds in said cubicles, doesn't help either. Worrying the way in which cocaine is seen as a normal part of a night out for many young men these days and just adds to the toxicity of a game like last night.

I saw one guy that couldnt even be bothered waiting for the cubicle to get his fix

Killiehibbie
01-11-2018, 10:24 PM
I said the same in Jonnyboys match review thread. This is a huge social problem. I was at Sandown races in April & it was almost impossible to access the toilets because of the large number of young men blocking the entrance while queuing for a cubicle, & certainly not for a Tom Kite!
Aintree had the biggest bags i've ever seen getting passed round in the toilets.

The Modfather
01-11-2018, 10:34 PM
Is it really getting worse? I’m not sure it is.

Imo the only difference is that it’s becoming more visible because of social media, at least when it comes to the off field stuff.

On the pitch we’ve had this sort of thing forever. A Hibs fan entering the pitch to confront the ref in ‘03, Hearts fan coming on the pitch to go for Riordan in ‘09, Hearts fan attacking Neil Lennon in the dug out around 2011 all spring to mind. You also have Dallas being hit by a coin in the late 90’s.

In all my years of going I’ve never been to a derby where there hasn’t been a shower of coins/juice/lighters raining down on a goalie or a player taking a corner. Actually hitting a moving object with a coin isn’t exactly the easiest thing to do (no I’m not talking from experience) so I think it’s less to do with the behaviour getting worse and more to do with someone getting ‘lucky’ and actually managing to hit their target for a change.

I remember a game at Tynie in 2005 (Shiels winner). Shortly after we scored an empty quarter bottle of vodka smashed in my row having been thrown from the home end. With it being pre-social media, the only people that ever knew where the individuals that me and the people around me told. Last season the same thing happened and there were pages and pages about it on here and on kickback and the picture of the bottle was shared 1000’s times on twitter. That’s the difference imo.

Is the point not that it was unacceptable behaviour then, but less publicised without social media etc. It’s still unacceptable behaviour now, but with the advent of social media it’s harder for clubs/authorities/fans to just shrug their shoulders to and accept it’s always gone on. That it’s now easier to highlight the behaviour in order to help change what goes on.

Sir David Gray
01-11-2018, 10:42 PM
I enjoy the rivalry that football brings, I enjoy the tense atmospheres and some of the songs which sail close to the wind of what is acceptable. Personally rugby isn't my cup of tea, I was at an Edinburgh match the other week at Murrayfield and the actual match itself was ok, I could appreciate the skill involved in being able to compete at that level.

However the mixing of the fans and the clapping that happened every time the other team got a try or scored a penalty just wasn't for me. It was far too sanitised for me. Maybe that's because I have been brought up in a football environment where fans are segregated and you don't dare cheer any goals scored by the opposition.

I do think that things boiled over last night and certain incidents were unacceptable, even for football. I wouldn't want the football rivalry to disappear.

Bishop Hibee
01-11-2018, 10:48 PM
The rise of extremism in politics and the intemperate rhetoric that’s come with it hasn’t helped. Every dingbat and their dog feels entitled to spout whatever bile they want online. This fuels mental behaviour. Add in misguided nostalgia for “the good old days” of going to the football when in reality the grounds were dumps, fighting outside was commonplace and you were thought of as a bit odd if you went home and away.

Interesting point made regarding cocaine being an issue.

So much going for Scottish football but it’s a thin line between passion and poison from fans.