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happiehibbie
29-10-2018, 04:01 PM
I notice that they are up to contributions of 8 million. Is that Actual or Jambos counting 1 2 miss a few a 100.

I am currently donating ATM and currently happy with my contributions.

With so many players now joining up how do we get the fans to follow suit ?

Is it a trust thing with us ?

Should HSL have a walk up stall at the next few games so people can donate or sign up ?

Should we get the opportunity to sign up / donate when we buy ST or walk up tickets ?

With our fan base we should be able to inject monies into the club if every ST holder gave a fiver this week £67500 in the coffers for january

Tinribs
29-10-2018, 04:29 PM
I don't think it's a trust issue, I suspect our pink chums had reasons to cough up that we just don't have thankfully. If our backs had been against the wall, I'm sure the response would be the same as theirs.

green day
29-10-2018, 04:38 PM
I notice that they are up to contributions of 8 million. Is that Actual or Jambos counting 1 2 miss a few a 100.

I am currently donating ATM and currently happy with my contributions.

With so many players now joining up how do we get the fans to follow suit ?

Is it a trust thing with us ?

Should HSL have a walk up stall at the next few games so people can donate or sign up ?

Should we get the opportunity to sign up / donate when we buy ST or walk up tickets ?

With our fan base we should be able to inject monies into the club if every ST holder gave a fiver this week £67500 in the coffers for january

See this thread

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?334877-Hsl

Alan62
29-10-2018, 04:49 PM
Rightly, much has been made of the FoH donations to Hearts. They've chipped in massively and it's become a way of life for them.

For me, it's just plain weird. Nobody in their right mind would pledge to carry on giving a substantial amount of money every month indefinitely to what is, after all, a business. Fair enough, our football clubs are businesses that we're very fond of and have an unusually close relationship with BUT the cash for no return nature of the donations gets odder and odder the longer it goes on.

I genuinely respect folks who give money to HSL. At least there's a plan there to create a kind of democratically run collective that buys a statistically significant share in the club's ownership structure. Am I right in saying that FoH is still just ponying up working capital and not yet converting that into a shareholding?

What FoH does is it massively distorts the club's finances. I'm sure they base their business plan on assumptions that include it continuing indefinitely whereas in reality, it could dry up really quick if the fans fell out with the leadership/started hating the manager or whatever.

HSL is a different kettle of fish. A welcome addition to the mix but not an essential part of our club's finances. I think I prefer it that way.

hibeerealist
29-10-2018, 05:01 PM
Rightly, much has been made of the FoH donations to Hearts. They've chipped in massively and it's become a way of life for them.

For me, it's just plain weird. Nobody in their right mind would pledge to carry on giving a substantial amount of money every month indefinitely to what is, after all, a business. Fair enough, our football clubs are businesses that we're very fond of and have an unusually close relationship with BUT the cash for no return nature of the donations gets odder and odder the longer it goes on.

I genuinely respect folks who give money to HSL. At least there's a plan there to create a kind of democratically run collective that buys a statistically significant share in the club's ownership structure. Am I right in saying that FoH is still just ponying up working capital and not yet converting that into a shareholding?

What FoH does is it massively distorts the club's finances. I'm sure they base their business plan on assumptions that include it continuing indefinitely whereas in reality, it could dry up really quick if the fans fell out with the leadership/started hating the manager or whatever.

HSL is a different kettle of fish. A welcome addition to the mix but not an essential part of our club's finances. I think I prefer it that way.

Regular defeats dished out by Hibs would see the FOH contributions slashed, of that I am convinced.

Yes, it is monu(mental) what they have contributed thus far but it will diminish should these donations not see them above us or dishing out beatings to us (yam expectations of natural order).

BSEJVT
29-10-2018, 05:11 PM
Lets assume that 2 football teams have roughly the same size of support and roughly the same level of engagement with that support viz a viz season /walk up tickets holders and merchandising spending,

They also have commercial teams bringing in roughly the same commercial income and enjoy roughly the same prize money from their football teams on pitch success.

Team A bring in over £1m per annum more in other income than Team B

All other things being equal which team do you think will win more often?

If you are happy to support Team B and watch them lose to Team A more often than they win, dont contribute to HSL

If you are not ………………….

bigwheel
29-10-2018, 05:16 PM
Lets assume that 2 football teams have roughly the same size of support and roughly the same level of engagement with that support viz a viz season /walk up tickets holders and merchandising spending,

They also have commercial teams bringing in roughly the same commercial income and enjoy roughly the same prize money from their football teams on pitch success.

Team A bring in over £1m per annum more in other income than Team B

All other things being equal which team do you think will win more often?

If you are happy to support Team B and watch them lose to Team A more often than they win, dont contribute to HSL

If you are not ………………….

it's a fair point this...for all the reasons that have been stated Hearts seem to now have a sustainable income stream that sets them apart from us...they will have circa £1.5M- £2M+ more to spend every year if they maintain it...a massive differentiator. `To compete, we will need to find a way to narrow that gap..

Lendo
29-10-2018, 05:23 PM
How many threads do we now have on the go about Hearts?

Viva_Palmeiras
29-10-2018, 05:26 PM
Iirc That’ll be £1.6m that would have otherwise gone to VAT man?

Geo_1875
29-10-2018, 05:30 PM
it's a fair point this...for all the reasons that have been stated Hearts seem to now have a sustainable income stream that sets them apart from us...they will have circa £1.5M- £2M+ more to spend every year if they maintain it...a massive differentiator. `To compete, we will need to find a way to narrow that gap..

It might be a "sustainable" income stream but it is being chucked at the team with the intention of finishing above Hibs. They will not win the league. They've about the same chance as us of winning one of the cups. In the long run they are not building anything that will last and a stronger Sevco will see them battling with us and Aberdeen for 3rd place. If they finish 4th and we finish 5th they will be happy. And if they ever get their hands on Dr Budge's shares I expect a lot of infighting and backstabbing will be the outcome.

BSEJVT
29-10-2018, 05:34 PM
How many threads do we now have on the go about Hearts?

I would argue this thread has nothing to do with them and more about Hibs and our supporters desire to meet the challenge

I often read that folk wont contribute because they don't believe in fan ownership.

Here's another scenario then.

Scotland gets invaded by Aliens with a stated purpose of exterminating mankind

Folk are requested to enlist to fight them.

Do you:

a) stand up and say yes that's for me, the future of our society rests upon it.

b) stand up and say no because if I do we might end up with a leader I wouldn't like.

c) think up about it and say we might end up with a leader I don't like but the alternative is oblivion so yes I will go for it.

Not quite that graphic, but unless we stand up and do so now oblivion (or at least living in their shadow on the pitch) would be a greater evil than limited fan ownership IMO

The time for action is now before its too late

Tug Wilson
29-10-2018, 05:35 PM
Thankfully it is not all about money otherwise the club chairmen could get together at the start of every season, whip out their balance sheets and the one with the biggest gets the league trophy.

It is how you spend that extra income that matters. How you structure your business. How you recruit players and coaches. How you maximise players ability. Organise the team on and off the pitch. So many factors make a difference.

BSEJVT
29-10-2018, 05:40 PM
Thankfully it is not all about money otherwise the club chairmen could get together at the start of every season, whip out their balance sheets and the one with the biggest gets the league trophy.

It is how you spend that extra income that matters. How you structure your business. How you recruit players and coaches. How you maximise players ability. Organise the team on and off the pitch. So many factors make a difference.

Absolutely correct

But most of these factors even themselves out over time

For most of the last 40 years until their Admin event their greater financial backing had them ahead of us 8 maybe 9 times out of 10

I am in no rush to go back to those days and we don't have to unless we let it happen.

If it does we will have no-one to look to but ourselves

bigwheel
29-10-2018, 05:41 PM
It might be a "sustainable" income stream but it is being chucked at the team with the intention of finishing above Hibs. They will not win the league. They've about the same chance as us of winning one of the cups. In the long run they are not building anything that will last and a stronger Sevco will see them battling with us and Aberdeen for 3rd place. If they finish 4th and we finish 5th they will be happy. And if they ever get their hands on Dr Budge's shares I expect a lot of infighting and backstabbing will be the outcome.


Some hopeful thinking there

They have certainly wasted a whole lot of it on expensive flops I will grant you that..and they will have a wage bill that is hard to handle - and need to exit a number of players - true...yet, somehow they have managed to go from a pretty poor side to a decent side in the last transfer window. They are a much better side this season. They also have a good and performing academy (like us)..My main point is their regular HoF income is sustainable. Certainly seems to be sticking so far.

It's hard to conclude anything other than they will have a material amount of more money to spend on footballing stuff than we will.

Alan62
29-10-2018, 06:06 PM
FoH will also evolve. The 'saving the club' phase is over. It will now move into the 'buying the club' phase. That will bring new dynamics to the mix and it doesn't look likely that Mrs Budge will let go easily. That could bring new tensions.

In the meantime, I'd much rather our club continued to develop commercially in order to strengthen its position in the various competitions. I'm happy with the way things are shaping up at Easter Road and, while I think HSL has a role, I don't think we have to match FoH in order to achieve our goals.

RoYO!
29-10-2018, 06:19 PM
I actually find all the HSL ultimatums quite tiresome.

Just my opinion of course. But I’m happy with my level of contribution currently.

BSEJVT
29-10-2018, 06:27 PM
I actually find all the HSL ultimatums quite tiresome.

Just my opinion of course. But I’m happy with my level of contribution currently.

As is your entitlement

Personally I will find Hearts dominating us a lot more than tiresome

Ozyhibby
29-10-2018, 06:35 PM
Thankfully it is not all about money otherwise the club chairmen could get together at the start of every season, whip out their balance sheets and the one with the biggest gets the league trophy.

It is how you spend that extra income that matters. How you structure your business. How you recruit players and coaches. How you maximise players ability. Organise the team on and off the pitch. So many factors make a difference.

Actually league performance usually correlates pretty well with the size of a clubs turnover. The more money a club makes, the more successful they are. Works in most leagues in Europe.



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green day
29-10-2018, 06:43 PM
Actually league performance usually correlates pretty well with the size of a clubs turnover. The more money a club makes, the more successful they are. Works in most leagues in Europe.

That people don't see this after so many threads on HSL v FoH astonishes me.

I think (given the players they have signed) that the football budget at hearts is already benefitting from FoH - to an extent.

Rather unfortunately, when they pay off Budge and take ownership in a year or two, their financial advantage will kick in fully.

At that point they will glide past us easily and some people will still be scratching their heads and asking "how did that happen?"

Brooster
29-10-2018, 06:48 PM
How many threads do we now have on the go about Hearts?

Some folk on here talk about them constantly. It does my head in. Focus on Hibs ffs.

SRHibs
29-10-2018, 06:58 PM
I actually find all the HSL ultimatums quite tiresome.

Just my opinion of course. But I’m happy with my level of contribution currently.

Yeah, should advertise through positive means, not “because Hearts will be better than us if you don’t contribute, and it’ll be your own fault.”.

7heaven
29-10-2018, 06:59 PM
I bought shares and contribute monthly to HSL
I think that HSL needs some sort of re-branding to attract more contributors.
Leanne mentioned at the AGM something called the Famous Fiver.
Could we not rename HSL to something similar and ask for say £5 a week.(not a lot of money).
Would this not attract more contributions.

superfurryhibby
29-10-2018, 07:00 PM
That people don't see this after so many threads on HSL v FoH astonishes me.

I think (given the players they have signed) that the football budget at hearts is already benefitting from FoH - to an extent.

Rather unfortunately, when they pay off Budge and take ownership in a year or two, their financial advantage will kick in fully.

At that point they will glide past us easily and some people will still be scratching their heads and asking "how did that happen?"

As you probably know from the other thread, that isn’t really accurate. CWG has said to wait until their accounts are published and I’ve added a few notes of caution before swallowing this hook, line and sinker. FOH contributed 3 million to a stand that cost 15 million, the pitch cost 850.000k and they owe Budge 2.5 million ( plus interest). I wouldn’t hold my breath about FOH owning them anytime soon.

They have signed plenty of players in the past few seasons, but the main difference this time is that they have signed some decent ones. I suppose they can’t get it wrong all the time. They’ve had mixed fortunes since they were promoted and that is with all the benefits of FOH. This can’t be a sustainable model for success, whereas we seem to be building a more planned future.

In saying that, it would be nice if we could attract some mystery benefactors. People like Scotty Leither who post on here imply there is potential for this to happen. Given the obvious point that investment isn’t going to offer a financial return to anyone putting money into the club and no one can apparently buy out our major shareholder,, it does seem like their altruistic rich folk do a better job than ours.

So rich Hibees, wallets out and get supporting HSL.

green day
29-10-2018, 07:09 PM
As you probably know from the other thread, that isn’t really accurate.

Fine, let's wait to see Hearts accounts - Cannae wait.

However, it's a fact that hearts spending - on players or infrastructure - have benefited (in one way or another) by £8m from FoH.

You do realise that they don't care if they don't buy the club for another few years, if it means their cash goes toward improving them in one way or another?

superfurryhibby
29-10-2018, 07:22 PM
Fine, let's wait to see Hearts accounts - Cannae wait.

However, it's a fact that hearts spending - on players or infrastructure - have benefited (in one way or another) by £8m from FoH.

You do realise that they don't care if they don't buy the club for another few years, if it means their cash goes toward improving them in one way or another?

Well we could just hold back on bold statements about them buying the club in a year or two and just wait and see. Accounts are not really my cup of tea, but they are rather fundamental to the piont you’re making, I can’t wait either:wink:

Cannae disagree that it would have been useful for Hibs to have matched the monies raised by FOH, that’s why I ended my comment by saying that the rich Hibees out there should be getting their hands in there pockets. Wouldn’t it be nice if we could have someone donate a few million here and there?

Stuart93
29-10-2018, 10:07 PM
Like someone’s said I genuinly believe hearts fans would chuck however much amount a month at their club to see them beating us and finishing above us in the table even if it meant winning nothing or achieving nothing apart from bragging rights. Everything revolves around us for them, it’s weird.

cocteautwin
30-10-2018, 12:14 AM
It's not just the FOH contributions that puts them miles ahead of us when it comes to cash available. They've also taken many millions in owners contributions, anonymous donations, a Hearts minded sponsor and bank loans. Approximately an extra £10m on top of the £8m since Admin. Anyone know what the FFP rules are?

Austinho
30-10-2018, 01:32 AM
I saw FOH had adverts going all the way around on the electronic billboards during the Celtic semi final thanking the fans for the £8 million. The difference in exposure between that and HSL is pretty monumental. Who paid for it, and whether there are actually any more donors willing to donate who aren’t already aware of FOH is another question, but it clearly working for them.

Viva_Palmeiras
30-10-2018, 04:14 AM
Vlad: Gimme your cash or your club will go to the wall. Share issue (you’ll get certificates and everything)
Ordinary Yam: Hmmm, he’s got us over a barrel can’t call his bluff but we’ll get certificate! where do we sign ?
Financial aware Yam: No - [keeps money in pocket.]

Vlad: Mwah ha ha one last £1.5m [iirc]

Administrations: Give us your money or it goes to the wall
Ordinary yam: here we go again...
Financial yam: brinkmanship games facilitated by Admins to knock down the creditors p in £. Still it getting a significant wedge of our dosh - Queenie up you step...
Queenie: I’ll mibbie offer some prize trips on my yaught... more brinkmanship.
Administrators: we’ve saved club and shafted tax payers and Lithuanian pensioner, charities, local businesses. Queenie engages and prepares for a Christ the Redeemer photo opp. Our work is done. Out of admin you go.
Yam rabble: bickering factions, Save Hearts In Trouble emerges. And VAT exempt donations flow into the club.
Queenie talks fannies / biddies and gets buy in.
Financial yams come out in from the cold. Mysterious benefactors come to life.

Or somthing like that :)

JimboHibs
30-10-2018, 06:22 AM
Rightly, much has been made of the FoH donations to Hearts. They've chipped in massively and it's become a way of life for them.

For me, it's just plain weird. Nobody in their right mind would pledge to carry on giving a substantial amount of money every month indefinitely to what is, after all, a business. Fair enough, our football clubs are businesses that we're very fond of and have an unusually close relationship with BUT the cash for no return nature of the donations gets odder and odder the longer it goes on.

I genuinely respect folks who give money to HSL. At least there's a plan there to create a kind of democratically run collective that buys a statistically significant share in the club's ownership structure. Am I right in saying that FoH is still just ponying up working capital and not yet converting that into a shareholding?

What FoH does is it massively distorts the club's finances. I'm sure they base their business plan on assumptions that include it continuing indefinitely whereas in reality, it could dry up really quick if the fans fell out with the leadership/started hating the manager or whatever.

HSL is a different kettle of fish. A welcome addition to the mix but not an essential part of our club's finances. I think I prefer it that way.

You have effectively just said if it went tits up at us you would find it weird that supporters would pledge their money to save our club.

You need to take your Green tinted glasses off !!

Alan62
30-10-2018, 08:17 AM
You have effectively just said if it went tits up at us you would find it weird that supporters would pledge their money to save our club.

You need to take your Green tinted glasses off !!

No, I said it’s weird that the commitment appears to be indefinite. The main milestone for FoH donations has been reached. The second target (stand redevelopment) has been almost achieved. The next level is indefinite free (and VAT free) cash until the end of time to pay for players.

That’s a very different thing than a normal relationship with your supporters. I happily pay for my season ticket. I’m delighted to pay for as many European and cup games as possible. I am willing to buy merchandise from the shop. Am I giving up the family holiday/new washing machine/pension contributions/nights out etc to falsely inflate the club’s budget every year until the end of time? Eh, naw.


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Just Alf
30-10-2018, 08:25 AM
No, I said it’s weird that the commitment appears to be indefinite. The main milestone for FoH donations has been reached. The second target (stand redevelopment) has been almost achieved. The next level is indefinite free (and VAT free) cash until the end of time to pay for players.

That’s a very different thing than a normal relationship with your supporters. I happily pay for my season ticket. I’m delighted to pay for as many European and cup games as possible. I am willing to buy merchandise from the shop. Am I giving up the family holiday/new washing machine/pension contributions/nights out etc to falsely inflate the club’s budget every year until the end of time? Eh, naw.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI, sort of, agree with that... If was giving up something like that then I wouldn't subscribe either, in fact at one point I had to take a break. But at the moment I've got everything covered so can afford to pay a wee bit towards Neil's pot.



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CropleyWasGod
30-10-2018, 08:44 AM
It's not just the FOH contributions that puts them miles ahead of us when it comes to cash available. They've also taken many millions in owners contributions, anonymous donations, a Hearts minded sponsor and bank loans. Approximately an extra £10m on top of the £8m since Admin. Anyone know what the FFP rules are?We don't have FFP rules in Scotland.

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CapitalGreen
30-10-2018, 08:52 AM
We don't have FFP rules in Scotland.

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Presumably Hearts are interested in qualifying for UEFA competitions though.

CropleyWasGod
30-10-2018, 08:58 AM
Presumably Hearts are interested in qualifying for UEFA competitions though.Yep, but I'm not sure that there would be a problem with the UEFA FFP rules.

In the last accounts, they only had 1 loan of 2.4m, and they took out additional "facilities" of 1.75m in October. Even if they took full advantage of those facilities, the total borrowings wouldn't be enough to bother UEFA IMO.

The fans' contributions, whether FOH or private, shouldn't be an issue either.

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greenginger
30-10-2018, 09:03 AM
While I would be the first to say the £8 million or so raised by FoH has been a great effort by the fans , its what been done with the money that I find less than wholly beneficial to the Club.

First £ 4 million or so went towards HOMFC working capital. ( kept the lights on and financed the Cathro revolution )

Next £ 2.5 million went to the new stand budget ( really paying for the cac handed shambles of a construction project )

Money now being accumulated to pay Mrs Budge her £2.5 million plus 6% interest.

MB62
30-10-2018, 09:12 AM
I don't think it's a trust issue, I suspect our pink chums had reasons to cough up that we just don't have thankfully. If our backs had been against the wall, I'm sure the response would be the same as theirs.

It certainly was, and possibly still is, for me. I joined at the weekend, possibly against my better judgement, but signed up anyway. I didn't know who was involved in HSL so have just done a search and discovered the names and faces behind it. I am now a wee bit more comfortable with the people who are on committee as I personally know 2 or 3 of them and feel a certain amount of trust (which I didn't have previously).

I signed up, NOT because I am concerned about what that lot over the road are doing, I personally couldn't care less if they contribute 3p or £3billion a week, I support Hibernian and what any other club does is irrelevant, I signed up because I feel it is important that we the fans reach a stage where we have 25.1% MINIMUM of the share issue of the club, which keeps us safe for our and future generations, without fear of a Mad Vlad, Wallet Mercenary, type headcase taking over and destroying our club.

STF will not be around forever, he will eventually join the rest of the Hibees visiting the Angels High Above, as we all will, and I have no idea what will happen to the control of Hibernian in this event. I keep hearing everything will be fine and there are plans in place, but nobody seems to either know or are willing to say, what these plans are.

Alan62
30-10-2018, 09:15 AM
Does anyone really think that auld Budgie will just roll over and leave when FoH rustle up the cash? Isn't the constant moving of the goalposts just delaying tactics on her part?

Ozyhibby
30-10-2018, 09:16 AM
It's not just the FOH contributions that puts them miles ahead of us when it comes to cash available. They've also taken many millions in owners contributions, anonymous donations, a Hearts minded sponsor and bank loans. Approximately an extra £10m on top of the £8m since Admin. Anyone know what the FFP rules are?

There are no FFP rules.


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Spike Mandela
30-10-2018, 09:18 AM
While I would be the first to say the £8 million or so raised by FoH has been a great effort by the fans , its what been done with the money that I find less than wholly beneficial to the Club.

First £ 4 million or so went towards HOMFC working capital. ( kept the lights on and financed the Cathro revolution )

Next £ 2.5 million went to the new stand budget ( really paying for the cac handed shambles of a construction project )

Money now being accumulated to pay Mrs Budge her £2.5 million plus 6% interest.

In Feb 2014 Budge said she wouldn’t be here more than 5 years and the club would be in complete fan ownership by no later than Feb 2019. Hearts are no nearer that now than then.

Currently Hearts season ticket holders pay £320, £340, £395 and £495. If they are each adding £20 a month To FoH they are paying between, £560 to £735 to watch what up till now has been pretty drab stuff.

I prefer the Hibs model and I’m comfortable what I pay for it, the value for money I get and the professional way in which the club is run.

Ozyhibby
30-10-2018, 09:20 AM
Does anyone really think that auld Budgie will just roll over and leave when FoH rustle up the cash? Isn't the constant moving of the goalposts just delaying tactics on her part?

There is no evidence she is clinging onto power. The delay in paying her back is because the fans wanted the new stand built. FoH could pay her back and still ask her to stay on anyway.


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Alan62
30-10-2018, 09:30 AM
There is no evidence she is clinging onto power. The delay in paying her back is because the fans wanted the new stand built. FoH could pay her back and still ask her to stay on anyway.


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I hear the odd whisper from close to the club. Those whispers suggest otherwise.

Of course, they could ask her to stay. But, presuming you've met jambos before, you'll know that there will be many amongst the FoH elite who feel that in the interests of natural order they should be provided with an XXL maroon blazer and a seat at the table.

greenginger
30-10-2018, 09:36 AM
There is no evidence she is clinging onto power. The delay in paying her back is because the fans wanted the new stand built. FoH could pay her back and still ask her to stay on anyway.


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One problem with the original Budge/FoH deal was the Club was meant to be passed on debt free .

As Crops points out they took a £ 1.75 million facility from the bank a year ago and there's still a stand to finish.

Anyone think FoH might propose to repay Budge her £ 2.4 million less the Club debts ? :greengrin

Peevemor
30-10-2018, 09:40 AM
It has to be said that, even though their new stand wouldn't have been built without her being there, the current result (with all the design faults) compared to the money spent would see anyone that isn't the owner lose their job.

The Potter DOF model that she put in place wasn't really a success either.

Bostonhibby
30-10-2018, 10:07 AM
It has to be said that, even though their new stand wouldn't have been built without her being there, the current result (with all the design faults) compared to the money spent would see anyone that isn't the owner lose their job.

The Potter DOF model that she put in place wasn't really a success either.

There's a lot of sense in this, and it relates to a view I've often shared, if you take the years since they put themselves into administration and the cash sums the fans have credibly raised, the stewardship of that money is abysmal.

We frequently hear about the superiority they are creating / are about to create yet in real terms over that period they've blown all that cash on the now legendary one tier stand, laid a smaller than regulation pitch and signed a couple of giant squads of players.

We've got all of those facilities done and more, so lets look at the footballing success they've funded over the same post admin period - anyone think they've had more success than us? More return for all that they've put in in comparison. I don't. What they MAY achieve is speculation but the direction it will take is firmly in the hands of the good doctor and what she wants to do with the FOH money and when - it's not a great business model.

I have no problem separating HSL from FOH, for all the reasons others have expressed in the past, they are fundamentally different schemes - one will give the fans as many shares and as much ownership as they want as soon as they want it(HSL) and the money only goes to one place, the other, of necessity in the early days was the only show in town if they wanted the one realistic bidder to actually save their club.

Fair play to the fans for stepping up but they are now hostage to fortune again - they can't really step away easily - what will the good doctor want or need to do next to defer the transfer again? The single stand they had to build has overrun on all fronts, still isn't finished and still has to be fully paid for, there's the newly created expectation on the pitch to fund as well.

As far as HSL goes I have been in from day one as has my family but it's got nothing to do with what the rather uncertain Hearts model is and whilst the look at how big FOH is approach doesn't worry me at all, if the cash was demonstrably locked in and properly managed over say the next 5 years it could become interesting but I'm more concerned about what we do to continue on the upward spiral we are on just now.

WhileTheChief..
30-10-2018, 10:27 AM
An awful lot of straw clutching re FOH.

Their fans don’t give a stuff what the cash donations are spent on. They don’t care when Budge hands over control and they love the fact that they’ve paid for their new stand themselves.

They also love the new stand and don’t consider any of it a waste of money.

If we were donating that amount of cash we’d all be slapping each other on the back about how wonderful we are as fans. No point in trying to rubbish what FOH has achieved, it’s been pretty remarkable.

As for the donations dropping off after a few a few bad results, that’s not exactly happened. I keep reading on here that donations will stop when x,y or z happens but they carry on regardless.

Fair play to them but it’s not a model that every other club should try and follow.

BSEJVT
30-10-2018, 12:10 PM
An awful lot of straw clutching re FOH.

Their fans don’t give a stuff what the cash donations are spent on. They don’t care when Budge hands over control and they love the fact that they’ve paid for their new stand themselves.

They also love the new stand and don’t consider any of it a waste of money.

If we were donating that amount of cash we’d all be slapping each other on the back about how wonderful we are as fans. No point in trying to rubbish what FOH has achieved, it’s been pretty remarkable.

As for the donations dropping off after a few a few bad results, that’s not exactly happened. I keep reading on here that donations will stop when x,y or z happens but they carry on regardless.

Fair play to them but it’s not a model that every other club should try and follow.

If you mean what led them to the requirement Agreed

If not why not?

Surely supporters prepared to raise more money to put a better team on the park, has absolutely no downside??

NAE NOOKIE
30-10-2018, 01:09 PM
No, I said it’s weird that the commitment appears to be indefinite. The main milestone for FoH donations has been reached. The second target (stand redevelopment) has been almost achieved. The next level is indefinite free (and VAT free) cash until the end of time to pay for players.

That’s a very different thing than a normal relationship with your supporters. I happily pay for my season ticket. I’m delighted to pay for as many European and cup games as possible. I am willing to buy merchandise from the shop. Am I giving up the family holiday/new washing machine/pension contributions/nights out etc to falsely inflate the club’s budget every year until the end of time? Eh, naw.


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I don't know how many Jambos gave up new washing machines and the like to contribute to FOH …. I'm pretty sure some did when faced with the possibility that something they loved and they felt was an important part of their lives was about to disappear forever. I'm sure that in similar circumstances a lot of Hibs fans would do the same, in fact fans of any club.

But that is not what HSL is suggesting folk should do, in fact they have been fastidious in ensuring that it is made clear at every turn that folk should only be contributing if they can comfortably afford to …. it should be no more to your average fan than buying a couple of pints or a fish supper, not a sacrifice which impacts on your day to day life, including making a dent in your leisure spending.

Like you I spend money on a season ticket every season, I make purchases from the club shop from time to time, I buy food inside the stadium every time I visit … if you chuck in travelling to games and other sundries I probably spend at least £1000 a year on the club. Like you I have no reason whatsoever to reproach myself when it comes to my contribution to Hibs being a viable professional football club.

But, as things stand at the moment I find myself in a position where I can contribute £10 a month to HSL without it having any impact whatsoever on my ability to pay my way vis a vis household bills, day to day living, or it having an impact on my other leisure activities outside of football. In view of that I can think of no better way to spend less than £2.50 a week than on the football club I love …. if along with the other 2000 or so folk contributing that means Hibs are better able to compete with our rivals and it pushes the fans of the club closer towards being able to protect it from any future asset strippers I just cant see a down side …. money well spent in my opinion.

In all honesty I don't give a monkeys if my contribution means that in the fullness of time I will be a fully paid up member of HSL .. when that day comes I probably wont even notice unless HSL send me a certificate or something … so far as I'm concerned what I have made is an open ended commitment to Hibs which will continue until such time as either my finances take a downturn or I'm hit by the proverbial bus :greengrin

I have nothing but respect for people like yourself, how can anybody question your commitment as a Hibs fan. But the other side of that coin is that some folk are happy to go a wee bit further and I reckon that like me they see it as something they are happy to do if there is the possibility that it will make the experience of supporting the club that wee bit better :aok:

At the end of the day I am a firm believer in the assertion that football clubs aren't just comprised of the owners, management and players … there is one vital component without which a professional football club is nothing and that is the folk who support it …. If you are a person who truly believes that then like buying a season ticket and cheering on the team from the stands or making purchases from the club shop joining a scheme like HSL is just one more way of proving that time honoured phrase and making it a reality …. when fans are prepared to help finance their club just for the sake of it then we truly can say 'we are the club' without it being a hollow phrase.

That for me makes every penny spent worth it.

Tom Hart RIP
30-10-2018, 02:18 PM
I’ve been donating for a couple of years and was persuaded by Amit in Behind the Goals one Saturday. As we were speaking I noticed Ally McLeod and Amit introduced us. Signed up that day and haven’t regretted it.

JimboHibs
30-10-2018, 03:16 PM
No, I said it’s weird that the commitment appears to be indefinite. The main milestone for FoH donations has been reached. The second target (stand redevelopment) has been almost achieved. The next level is indefinite free (and VAT free) cash until the end of time to pay for players.

That’s a very different thing than a normal relationship with your supporters. I happily pay for my season ticket. I’m delighted to pay for as many European and cup games as possible. I am willing to buy merchandise from the shop. Am I giving up the family holiday/new washing machine/pension contributions/nights out etc to falsely inflate the club’s budget every year until the end of time? Eh, naw.


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Im still bemused why you think it's weird the donations are indefinite.

You do realise HSL is indefinite,HSL wont refuse donations once the perceived target of shares is reached & equally supporters will continue to want to donate to HSL,nothing weird about it.

lucky
30-10-2018, 03:34 PM
FoH have been magnificent for Hearts without them they’d still be on their knees. HSL as many have said are a different model. We can achieve a fairly sizeable chunk of club shares to safeguard it for future generations but at the same time we are giving the manager more money to spend on players. I still think HSL has to be more open and democratic but I’m a member who stopped my monthly contributions but after reading some of the posts on here I’ve decided to contribute again.

Alan62
30-10-2018, 03:50 PM
Im still bemused why you think it's weird the donations are indefinite.

You do realise HSL is indefinite,HSL wont refuse donations once the perceived target of shares is reached & equally supporters will continue to want to donate to HSL,nothing weird about it.

OK, what I find weird about FoH donations is that there's a level of acceptance that, no matter what, the donations continue. So, at the beginning, it was 'save the club'. Everyone rushes to save the club. Then it's 'build the stand', they keep paying to build the stand. Next up it's fund the team, aye, OK we'll keep paying. What are they, something like £8m in and still haven't started paying back the cash Queen Anne's debt.

HSL feels a lot more sensible to me. There's a share ownership target, there's an agreement on how the money is spent (ring-fenced for the playing squad). Of course, once the shares are purchased, it may continue to gather funds to invest in the squad and, frankly, I think that's fair enough. Back in the olden days there were small scale initiatives like Club 86 which took an interest in youth development and so on. That's all good.

What isn't good is having a sketchy big chunk of your annual budget which is attributed to 'annual charitable donation which may or may not continue'.

So, to sum up, yes, I still find it weird. Remember, some folks are contributing the value of their season ticket again and definitely don't come into the category of wealthy fans with lots of money to spare.

Iggy Pope
30-10-2018, 04:12 PM
An awful lot of straw clutching re FOH.

Their fans don’t give a stuff what the cash donations are spent on. They don’t care when Budge hands over control and they love the fact that they’ve paid for their new stand themselves.

They also love the new stand and don’t consider any of it a waste of money.

If we were donating that amount of cash we’d all be slapping each other on the back about how wonderful we are as fans. No point in trying to rubbish what FOH has achieved, it’s been pretty remarkable.

As for the donations dropping off after a few a few bad results, that’s not exactly happened. I keep reading on here that donations will stop when x,y or z happens but they carry on regardless.

Fair play to them but it’s not a model that every other club should try and follow.

Not the case that bit.
Cancellers occur every bad defeat or cup knock out and the FOH Admins get dogs abuse every time.

Tug Wilson
30-10-2018, 05:36 PM
FoH was created through extreme necessity. That is save the club. Since then there always seems to be another necessity to spend money on like the pitch or the stand. I am not sure how much has gone into the playing squad.

Certainly, in the future there may be a time when they have paid for the new infrastructure, paid off their debt, repaid Budge (plus interest) and started to move towards fan ownership. However, that time seems a while away. Until then a large amount of FoH contributions will still go to shoring up their club and not on better players.

Yes they have gone from abject rubbish to reasonable in one window but I think too many on here are seeing their short term form as some sort of sign of long term success. They still have a lot of bang average players. We still have a solid club that is run well and progressing nicely.

JimboHibs
30-10-2018, 06:11 PM
OK, what I find weird about FoH donations is that there's a level of acceptance that, no matter what, the donations continue. So, at the beginning, it was 'save the club'. Everyone rushes to save the club. Then it's 'build the stand', they keep paying to build the stand. Next up it's fund the team, aye, OK we'll keep paying. What are they, something like £8m in and still haven't started paying back the cash Queen Anne's debt.

HSL feels a lot more sensible to me. There's a share ownership target, there's an agreement on how the money is spent (ring-fenced for the playing squad). Of course, once the shares are purchased, it may continue to gather funds to invest in the squad and, frankly, I think that's fair enough. Back in the olden days there were small scale initiatives like Club 86 which took an interest in youth development and so on. That's all good.

What isn't good is having a sketchy big chunk of your annual budget which is attributed to 'annual charitable donation which may or may not continue'.

So, to sum up, yes, I still find it weird. Remember, some folks are contributing the value of their season ticket again and definitely don't come into the category of wealthy fans with lots of money to spare.

It done matter if folks dont come or are into the category of wealthy fans,or that you think HSL is more sensible. Hearts fans are contributing because they want to and again I don't hear Hearts supporters concerned at a budget attributed to an 'annual charitable donation' ... there's nothing weird about supporters regardless of who they support making donations to the club they support.