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Stuart93
26-10-2018, 12:52 PM
See they’ve quoted a tweet from FoH regarding them having raised £8m and said “a phenomenal effort from our neighbours across the city 👏🏼 👏🏼 👏🏼👏🏼“

A strange way to try entice more people to donate. I’d rather they concentrate solely on hibs and not what other teams fans are doing especially them.

H18 SFR
26-10-2018, 01:02 PM
Are you not just highlighting more on another forum though?

BlackSheep
26-10-2018, 01:05 PM
See they’ve quoted a tweet from FoH regarding them having raised £8m and said “a phenomenal effort from our neighbours across the city ���� ���� ��������“

A strange way to try entice more people to donate. I’d rather they concentrate solely on hibs and not what other teams fans are doing especially them.

I don’t think it’s strange in the slightest.

HSL has tried many avenues to encourage uptake for HSL, if trying to play on some fans one-up-manship over the Jambos works then so be it... a lot of HSL sceptics are unaware of just how much other equivalent schemes are raising for our rivals... not just Hearts.

Dobosz83
26-10-2018, 01:13 PM
It doesn't matter how you slice it, FoH have done exceptionally well to raise that amount of money. They are entitled to pat themselves on the back for their efforts and that's with the green tinted specs removed. I suspect they will not be seeing any drop off in pledges/donations anytime soon as their team rides the crest of a positive wave.

What it does for me, personally, is act as inspiration to sign up to HSL this afternoon and restart my monthly contribution because I don't want to see a gulf develop which appears inevitable based on what is happening right in front of our eyes.

I appreciate people have their suspicions and frustrations about HSL and that the two are difficult to compare, but it's the equivalent vehicle we have at the moment so I am in while I can afford to be.

GGTTH.

Stuart93
26-10-2018, 01:26 PM
It doesn't matter how you slice it, FoH have done exceptionally well to raise that amount of money. They are entitled to pat themselves on the back for their efforts and that's with the green tinted specs removed. I suspect they will not be seeing any drop off in pledges/donations anytime soon as their team rides the crest of a positive wave.

What it does for me, personally, is act as inspiration to sign up to HSL this afternoon and restart my monthly contribution because I don't want to see a gulf develop which appears inevitable based on what is happening right in front of our eyes.

I appreciate people have their suspicions and frustrations about HSL and that the two are difficult to compare, but it's the equivalent vehicle we have at the moment so I am in while I can afford to be.

GGTTH.

I’ve nothing against HSL I donate monthly but both of them are non comparable imo as FoH started to save hearts. Totally different situations.

NAE NOOKIE
26-10-2018, 01:34 PM
It doesn't matter how you dress it up, it is an incredible effort by the Yams and it would be churlish to deny it.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter a toss that the circumstances leading to the inception of FOH and HSL were entirely different, all that will matter in the long run is a club we are in direct competition with will every season be taking in contributions from their supporters which far exceeds ours and that will end up giving them a distinct on field advantage over us if we don't step up.

As it stands the Aberdeen equivalent which is much younger than HSL is already outstripping our contributions and we cant point to their immanent destruction as motivation for that as we can with Hertz.

Its a given that not everybody will be able to contribute to HSL, but our fanbase is in reality not so far short of what Hertz and Aberdeen enjoy that we can point to that as a reason for the out of proportion disparity between our respective fan funding schemes, we should at least be aiming to get to a stage where what each club's fans contribute is a closer reflection of the respective supporter numbers.

MacGruber
26-10-2018, 01:38 PM
I’ve nothing against HSL I donate monthly but both of them are non comparable imo as FoH started to save hearts. Totally different situations.

This.

& the 2 schemes will never be at a similar level unless Hibs hit the skids and money is needed to stop the club dying altogether. 'Money or death' is more persuasive than 'money of you want'

Hats off to them for keeping it going - it's easier to keep it going though than it is to get it started.

On a side note though Hibs as a club have been running superbly for the last couple of years so makes me less bothered about other clubs successes

matty_f
26-10-2018, 01:43 PM
I’ve nothing against HSL I donate monthly but both of them are non comparable imo as FoH started to save hearts. Totally different situations.

Once upon a time they were different situations, less so these days.

I have no issue with their tweet - anything that they can do to highlight the need for donations is helpful.

tamig
26-10-2018, 01:47 PM
This.

& the 2 schemes will never be at a similar level unless Hibs hit the skids and money is needed to stop the club dying altogether. 'Money or death' is more persuasive than 'money of you want'

Hats off to them for keeping it going - it's easier to keep it going though than it is to get it started.

On a side note though Hibs as a club have been running superbly for the last couple of years so makes me less bothered about other clubs successes
We may be in pretty sound financial shape currently but our rivals will be stealing a march on us financially in future unless more contributors get on the HSL train.

Scotty Leither
26-10-2018, 01:57 PM
Some of you won't like me repeating this, but here goes anyway...

If the sale price of Hibernian FC is presently unaffordable for any one individual to purchase it outright, then our current Board of Directors have to be tasked with bringing investment in that either gives somebody leverage to increase their shareholding in future, with an element of control traded off for that investment.

It seems to me that right now it's either "invest in HSL" or errmmm , "invest in HSL" and that's about your lot.

Extra investment won't be coming from our current owner; that's not a dig at Tom Farmer, for whom I have the utmost respect for, but LD and the other directors need to address this and put some coherent strategy together to both attract outward investment and fire the imagination of the fans to get onside too, as HSL alone doesn't cut it for me, I'm afraid.

CropleyWasGod
26-10-2018, 02:06 PM
Some of you won't like me repeating this, but here goes anyway...

If the sale price of Hibernian FC is presently unaffordable for any one individual to purchase it outright, then our current Board of Directors have to be tasked with bringing investment in that either gives somebody leverage to increase their shareholding in future, with an element of control traded off for that investment.

It seems to me that right now it's either "invest in HSL" or errmmm , "invest in HSL" and that's about your lot.

Extra investment won't be coming from our current owner; that's not a dig at Tom Farmer, for whom I have the utmost respect for, but LD and the other directors need to address this and put some coherent strategy together to both attract outward investment and fire the imagination of the fans to get onside too, as HSL alone doesn't cut it for me, I'm afraid.

It's been said (many times) before. Nobody actually "invests" in Scottish football (outside of the OF), as that implies a return.

Other than the "community" investment of STF, I don't really see what's in it for anyone.

Stantons Angel
26-10-2018, 02:13 PM
See they’ve quoted a tweet from FoH regarding them having raised £8m and said “a phenomenal effort from our neighbours across the city 👏🏼 👏🏼 👏🏼👏🏼“

A strange way to try entice more people to donate. I’d rather they concentrate solely on hibs and not what other teams fans are doing especially them.


I personally dont find this strange at all.

They are just trying to point out that with a little dedication this is what can be achieved and to try to get the Hibs support engaged in their scheme.

its always the same with these sort of ideas plenty people think its a great idea but leave it up to others to do something about it.

I relalise the society we are living in as well as the restrictions placed upon our finances by it. If people could give a little every month it would soon mount up.

We have seen ourselves the difference this infusion of cash has made to the team in terms of the type of player our manager can go after.

In a time where every charity is desperate for our support its difficult to give to all. This scheme benefits Hibernian and also its supporters and if we can give a little to help

It would i know be appreciated.

The 90+2
26-10-2018, 02:15 PM
Probably to make non-donators jealous enough to actual sign up. Good work.

basehibby
26-10-2018, 02:21 PM
Magnificent effort by the Maroon Balloons in bailing out their bankrupted multiple world war winning institution.

Come on all you Hibees - stop making excuses and get the direct debits to HSL flowing - don't let these cardigan wearing fandangoes have the pleasure of stealing a march on us to add to all the poppy funds and Lithuanian pensioners' life savings.

soul_driver
26-10-2018, 02:22 PM
Has any of the FOH money actually been used to pay Budge back yet?

CropleyWasGod
26-10-2018, 02:23 PM
Has any of the FOH money actually been used to pay Budge back yet?

No.

CMurdoch
26-10-2018, 02:31 PM
It's been said (many times) before. Nobody actually "invests" in Scottish football (outside of the OF), as that implies a return.

Other than the "community" investment of STF, I don't really see what's in it for anyone.

Correcto.
Best keep running the club as we are at the moment.
Living within our means.
That way we keep control of our club.
Keep paying into HSL and buying season tickets in large numbers.
HSL is both money to the club and protection against takeover and over influence of an individual.

All these great clubs down south with their investors are now completely out of the control and influence of their fans who are now merely customers.
Rangers had investor Murray and Hearts had investor Romanov, how did they do?

CMurdoch
26-10-2018, 02:35 PM
No.

How much do they owe her?

CropleyWasGod
26-10-2018, 02:44 PM
How much do they owe her?

The last accounts showed £2.4m, which was a year or so ago. I wouldn't expect that anything has been repaid since then.

soul_driver
26-10-2018, 02:50 PM
The last accounts showed £2.4m, which was a year or so ago. I wouldn't expect that anything has been repaid since then.

So, they've raised £8m but not used any of it for the purpose it was intended? Doesn't sound wise to me.

CropleyWasGod
26-10-2018, 02:58 PM
So, they've raised £8m but not used any of it for the purpose it was intended? Doesn't sound wise to me.

Repaying AB was always going to be the last thing they did. They were funding the working capital for the first few years, and would have paid AB by now if it hadn't have been for that pesky stand; they agreed to divert some of their money to that.

Bostonhibby
26-10-2018, 03:10 PM
Has any of the FOH money actually been used to pay Budge back yet?No, and who knows what she'll decide to do next as a further diversion from what they thought they were saving for[emoji6]

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soul_driver
26-10-2018, 03:10 PM
Repaying AB was always going to be the last thing they did. They were funding the working capital for the first few years, and would have paid AB by now if it hadn't have been for that pesky stand; they agreed to divert some of their money to that.

It will be interesting to see how they cope once they do actually start paying her back.

CMurdoch
26-10-2018, 03:33 PM
The last accounts showed £2.4m, which was a year or so ago. I wouldn't expect that anything has been repaid since then.

Think they rolled up the price of the new stand, new pitch and improvements to the rest of the ground into 1 big bill.
Also heard they have made enquiries about 2 large screens.

Suspect it will be a little over 2 years before they pay AB off.
The annoying thing is they will be out of debt before us given how slowly we are paying STF back.
Get the feeling their progress behind the scenes has slowed down given their need to get the fans back on side with a decent team on the field this season after the mess of the last couple.

After getting out of debt they will always have a massive bill for training facilities so that will all but balance the STF payback.

CropleyWasGod
26-10-2018, 03:49 PM
Think they rolled up the price of the new stand, new pitch and improvements to the rest of the ground into 1 big bill.
Also heard they have made enquiries about 2 large screens.

Suspect it will be a little over 2 years before they pay AB off.
The annoying thing is they will be out of debt before us given how slowly we are paying STF back.
Get the feeling their progress behind the scenes has slowed down given their need to get the fans back on side with a decent team on the field this season after the mess of the last couple.

After getting out of debt they will always have a massive bill for training facilities so that will all but balance the STF payback.

I'm not so sure about that.

They took out further loan "facilities" of £1.75m a year ago.

Bostonhibby
26-10-2018, 04:07 PM
I'm not so sure about that.

They took out further loan "facilities" of £1.75m a year ago.They'll probably decide to just owe that one to themselves if they use it.

Worked brilliantly last time around.

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Scotty Leither
26-10-2018, 04:43 PM
This isn't going to be another "they're going bust soon" thread is it?

superfurryhibby
26-10-2018, 04:50 PM
Some of you won't like me repeating this, but here goes anyway...

If the sale price of Hibernian FC is presently unaffordable for any one individual to purchase it outright, then our current Board of Directors have to be tasked with bringing investment in that either gives somebody leverage to increase their shareholding in future, with an element of control traded off for that investment.

It seems to me that right now it's either "invest in HSL" or errmmm , "invest in HSL" and that's about your lot.

Extra investment won't be coming from our current owner; that's not a dig at Tom Farmer, for whom I have the utmost respect for, but LD and the other directors need to address this and put some coherent strategy together to both attract outward investment and fire the imagination of the fans to get onside too, as HSL alone doesn't cut it for me, I'm afraid.

You have said this before and I’m intrigued. So, given the circumstances highlighted below, how would the current board attract investment? What would you like to see happening?



It's been said (many times) before. Nobody actually "invests" in Scottish football (outside of the OF), as that implies a return.

Other than the "community" investment of STF, I don't really see what's in it for anyone.

Alex Trager
26-10-2018, 05:00 PM
This.

& the 2 schemes will never be at a similar level unless Hibs hit the skids and money is needed to stop the club dying altogether. 'Money or death' is more persuasive than 'money of you want'

Hats off to them for keeping it going - it's easier to keep it going though than it is to get it started.

On a side note though Hibs as a club have been running superbly for the last couple of years so makes me less bothered about other clubs successes

This is always something i point out to jambo folk i know. They seem to forget the reason they own so much of their club is because they were close to being flushed.

Alex Trager
26-10-2018, 05:03 PM
It's been said (many times) before. Nobody actually "invests" in Scottish football (outside of the OF), as that implies a return.

Other than the "community" investment of STF, I don't really see what's in it for anyone.

Is that because they two clubs are on the stock market or what?

CropleyWasGod
26-10-2018, 05:09 PM
Is that because they two clubs are on the stock market or what?It's because they are much bigger than us. They're big companies, with international "brands", and can therefore generate enough income to pay dividends or to grow the company enough so that the owner can make substantial gains when they sell.

All business doublespeak that has naff all to do with the average fitba fan.

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CapitalGreen
26-10-2018, 05:09 PM
I’ve nothing against HSL I donate monthly but both of them are non comparable imo as FoH started to save hearts. Totally different situations.

Their club was saved over 4 years ago and since then they have significantly increased the number of donators and the amount being donated.

kaimendhibs
26-10-2018, 05:09 PM
Anything that entices our fans to put more money into the club has to be a good thing surely

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Scotty Leither
26-10-2018, 05:09 PM
You have said this before and I’m intrigued. So, given the circumstances highlighted below, how would the current board attract investment? What would you like to see happening?

Some indication of where we're going post Tom Farmer, is what I'd like to see happening.

I think the value put on the club - £19.7m by the figure in the accounts? would put it beyond an individual outright purchase.

I think it's pertinent now we address that, and that's the rationale behind my constant trope about outside investment being sought by our Directors.

If they're hamstrung by the business model of the owners that precludes that, then we need some clarity on what that future business model is and the role of the Farmer family within that.If that future business model involves the fans, so much the better.

Which ultimately brings me back to my original point: Is it HSL and nowt else, or is there no alternative ownership model out there that'll bring serious money into the club?

Bostonhibby
26-10-2018, 05:12 PM
This isn't going to be another "they're going bust soon" thread is it?Nah, they've already done that.

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CropleyWasGod
26-10-2018, 05:13 PM
Some indication of where we're going post Tom Farmer, is what I'd like to see happening.

I think the value put on the club - £19.7m by the figure in the accounts? would put it beyond an individual outright purchase.

I think it's pertinent now we address that, and that's the rationale behind my constant trope about outside investment being sought by our Directors.

If they're hamstrung by the business model of the owners that precludes that, then we need some clarity on what that future business model is and the role of the Farmer family within that.If that future business model involves the fans, so much the better.

Which ultimately brings me back to my original point: Is it HSL and nowt else, or is there no alternative ownership model out there that'll bring serious money into the club?

By "investment" you mean "donation", yeah?

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OfficialHSL
26-10-2018, 05:14 PM
It doesn't matter how you slice it, FoH have done exceptionally well to raise that amount of money. They are entitled to pat themselves on the back for their efforts and that's with the green tinted specs removed. I suspect they will not be seeing any drop off in pledges/donations anytime soon as their team rides the crest of a positive wave.

What it does for me, personally, is act as inspiration to sign up to HSL this afternoon and restart my monthly contribution because I don't want to see a gulf develop which appears inevitable based on what is happening right in front of our eyes.

I appreciate people have their suspicions and frustrations about HSL and that the two are difficult to compare, but it's the equivalent vehicle we have at the moment so I am in while I can afford to be.

GGTTH.
Debosz

It will be great to have you back on board.

Can we please ask any fans who have any concerns or suspicions just to shout them out. We want to remove any barriers.

HSL

Brooster
26-10-2018, 05:14 PM
Their club was saved over 4 years ago and since then they have significantly increased the number of donators and the amount being donated.

Correct. The apathy and repeated trotting out of the same excuse will leave us miles behind financially. Contribute if you can before it's too late. It starts at £7 odds a month.....the price of 2 pints.

Blaster
26-10-2018, 05:17 PM
Some indication of where we're going post Tom Farmer, is what I'd like to see happening.

I think the value put on the club - £19.7m by the figure in the accounts? would put it beyond an individual outright purchase.

I think it's pertinent now we address that, and that's the rationale behind my constant trope about outside investment being sought by our Directors.

If they're hamstrung by the business model of the owners that precludes that, then we need some clarity on what that future business model is and the role of the Farmer family within that.If that future business model involves the fans, so much the better.

Which ultimately brings me back to my original point: Is it HSL and nowt else, or is there no alternative ownership model out there that'll bring serious money into the club?

Post Tom Farmer. Will it not be as we are going along now? A self sufficient club which spends all the income it makes on the club and to improve it??

HSL give another investment/funding opportunity on top on what the club manage to generate themselves. Now and in the future

danhibees1875
26-10-2018, 05:17 PM
Some indication of where we're going post Tom Farmer, is what I'd like to see happening.

I think the value put on the club - £19.7m by the figure in the accounts? would put it beyond an individual outright purchase.

I think it's pertinent now we address that, and that's the rationale behind my constant trope about outside investment being sought by our Directors.

If they're hamstrung by the business model of the owners that precludes that, then we need some clarity on what that future business model is and the role of the Farmer family within that.If that future business model involves the fans, so much the better.

Which ultimately brings me back to my original point: Is it HSL and nowt else, or is there no alternative ownership model out there that'll bring serious money into the club?

Post STF is what HSL is IMO... An ever changing large group of Hibs fans who hold enough interest in the club to protect it.

STF doesn't drip feed us money, we're a well organised business that generates it's own working capital - that's the model going forward so there is no need for an outside investor.

I'm not sure what the alternative is you seek - finding people with too much money and offering to illevaite the stress of their riches?

OfficialHSL
26-10-2018, 05:18 PM
It doesn't matter how you dress it up, it is an incredible effort by the Yams and it would be churlish to deny it.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter a toss that the circumstances leading to the inception of FOH and HSL were entirely different, all that will matter in the long run is a club we are in direct competition with will every season be taking in contributions from their supporters which far exceeds ours and that will end up giving them a distinct on field advantage over us if we don't step up.

As it stands the Aberdeen equivalent which is much younger than HSL is already outstripping our contributions and we cant point to their immanent destruction as motivation for that as we can with Hertz.

Its a given that not everybody will be able to contribute to HSL, but our fanbase is in reality not so far short of what Hertz and Aberdeen enjoy that we can point to that as a reason for the out of proportion disparity between our respective fan funding schemes, we should at least be aiming to get to a stage where what each club's fans contribute is a closer reflection of the respective supporter numbers.
Nae Nookie

We could not put it any better. As you say, it doesn't really matter anymore how things started across the city, all that matters is the here and now. They know their Club has been saved, they did that a few years ago. What matters is right now and the future. When their purchase transaction completes in 18 months time their Manager will have £1.4m pa available to spend on the team. We are trying our best to bring this to the attention of our fellow supporters so that no one can say " we didnt know"


HSL

Scotty Leither
26-10-2018, 05:46 PM
By "investment" you mean "donation", yeah?

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No, I didn't mean "donation", I said, and explicitly meant,"investment".

Whether that means fresh money coming to the club in the form of a direct dilution or block transference of shares from our present owner to a "new" part-owner once HSL have reached their 25% shareholding, or an outright sale which seems unlikely.

The first model is one which I've previously outlined a few times, and upon which you might want to comment on positively as opposed to simply paraphrasing what I've said in an attempt to nit-pick?

CropleyWasGod
26-10-2018, 05:50 PM
No, I didn't mean "donation", I said, and explicitly meant,"investment".

Whether that means fresh money coming to the club in the form of a direct dilution or block transference of shares from our present owner to a "new" part-owner once HSL have reached their 25% shareholding, or an outright sale which seems unlikely.

The first model is one which I've previously outlined a few times, and upon which you might want to comment on positively as opposed to simply paraphrasing what I've said in an attempt to nit-pick?

My point, which I made earlier and which is often made by others, is that investment implies return. I'm not clear what return any investor could expect from Hibs, other than an altruistic or ego-driven one.



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Scotty Leither
26-10-2018, 05:54 PM
My point, which I made earlier and which is often made by others, is that investment implies return. I'm not clear what return any investor could expect from Hibs, other than an altruistic or ego-driven one.



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So you concede i didn't say, nor mean, "donation" then?

CropleyWasGod
26-10-2018, 06:08 PM
So you concede i didn't say, nor mean, "donation" then?Yes, which leads me back to my question.

Put this another way. If I had 10m that I wanted to put Hibs way, what would I get for that?


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Since90+2
26-10-2018, 06:09 PM
Yes, which leads me back to my question.

Put this another way. If I had 10m that I wanted to put Hibs way, what would I get for that?


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Surely that's a question that can't be answered with any certainty?

superfurryhibby
26-10-2018, 06:09 PM
Some indication of where we're going post Tom Farmer, is what I'd like to see happening.

I think the value put on the club - £19.7m by the figure in the accounts? would put it beyond an individual outright purchase.

I think it's pertinent now we address that, and that's the rationale behind my constant trope about outside investment being sought by our Directors.

If they're hamstrung by the business model of the owners that precludes that, then we need some clarity on what that future business model is and the role of the Farmer family within that.If that future business model involves the fans, so much the better.

Which ultimately brings me back to my original point: Is it HSL and nowt else, or is there no alternative ownership model out there that'll bring serious money into the club?

I agree that it would be in the interests of openess and transparency to know what the major shareholding view is of the future of the club.

No one is going to pay near 20 million for any Scottish team ( outwith Glasgow?). So there is no obvious out for the current owners?

I’ve said before that we need a gesture, a legacy gesture. STF has owned Hibs longer than individual in our history. In my dreams he takes the hit. We could raise a statue to him and name a stand in his honour. Sigh.......

Dobosz83
26-10-2018, 06:21 PM
Debosz

It will be great to have you back on board.

Can we please ask any fans who have any concerns or suspicions just to shout them out. We want to remove any barriers.

HSL

Job done now on the website and that's me signed up indefinitely. Ill make one off contributions when I can as well, as the website is so easy to use.

For the record, Nae Nookie's posts have gone a long way to re-convincing me on this subject in recent weeks and his posts are genuinely posts I look out for on any thread. The media love in for the FoH over the past 48 hours really did seal it though. Let's make sure our club don't fall behind these cheats at the other end of the City.

GGTTH.

CropleyWasGod
26-10-2018, 06:21 PM
Surely that's a question that can't be answered with any certainty?If I was thinking of putting 10m into the Club, I'd want a fair amount of detail of what I'd be getting for it.

If I didn't, I'd be as well getting my financial advisers to make me a million a year on it. [emoji16]

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Since90+2
26-10-2018, 06:27 PM
If I was thinking of putting 10m into the Club, I'd want a fair amount of detail of what I'd be getting for it.

If I didn't, I'd be as well getting my financial advisers to make me a million a year on it. [emoji16]

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I thought your point was that nobody would make any roi if they invested that amount into Hibs rather than a question of what they get at time of purchase? That's how I picked up your exchange with the other poster.

My point is that nobody can say with certainty what the landscape of football will be and what the club could potentially be worth in 10-15 years time.

Scotty Leither
26-10-2018, 06:28 PM
Yes, which leads me back to my question.

Put this another way. If I had 10m that I wanted to put Hibs way, what would I get for that?


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Why don't you ask them what you would get for your £10m?

You might get a resounding "yes", or you might get a glib, buttoned-up, non-committal accountants' response, full of equivocation.

That's certainly been my experience when dealing with them, and I've never even offered them £10m.

CropleyWasGod
26-10-2018, 06:34 PM
I thought your point was that nobody would make any roi if they invested that amount into Hibs rather than a question of what they get at time of purchase? That's how I picked up your exchange with the other poster.

My point is that nobody can say with certainty what the landscape of football will be and what the club could potentially be worth in 10-15 years time.

...which is why people shy away from investing in football. There is no certainty, as you say, and certainly better and easier ways of making money.

FTR, my 10 million would come with no financial requirements. My ROI would be an occasional kick about with the "lads", a statue and the fans chanting my name now and again. Deal?

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CropleyWasGod
26-10-2018, 06:37 PM
Why don't you ask them what you would get for your £10m?

You might get a resounding "yes", or you might get a glib, buttoned-up, non-committal accountants' response, full of equivocation.

That's certainly been my experience when dealing with them, and I've never even offered them £10m.If they answer like that, it suggests that there is little on offer that would tempt anyone to give them 10m.

Like most clubs in Scotland, we are largely reliant on the notion of beneficient fans. I can't really see that changing, much as we would all like it to.

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BSEJVT
26-10-2018, 07:10 PM
Why don't you ask them what you would get for your £10m?

You might get a resounding "yes", or you might get a glib, buttoned-up, non-committal accountants' response, full of equivocation.

That's certainly been my experience when dealing with them, and I've never even offered them £10m.

Or maybe they just think you are a tyre kicker whom they should neither waste their time on or give away corporate information to?

Scottish Clubs have been down the route (SMG & Hearts as an example) of taking outside investment and after the initial cash is spent then what?

We either need someone with enough cash to buy out STF and then invest substantially in the club now and on an ongoing basis or someone to donate like some wealthy Aberdeen supporters have done.

If there isn't an individual or concert party of individuals able to do the former then there is absolutely no point in swapping an owner we know for an owner we don't.

The worries of what happens post STF are nothing compared to the uncertainty of what would happen to us if we sold to someone else with neither his contacts, influence or substantial cash and past business record opening doors for us.

Frankly I doubt whether such an individual or concert party exists and if I was their adviser I would be doing everything possible to dissuade them as its not only a poor investment but something that is going to give you so much personal grief that you would need to be nuts to consider it.

BTW threshold to buy out current owner is far less than £19m closer to £12 as IIRC around 30% of shareholding is owned by HSL and private investors?

CropleyWasGod
26-10-2018, 07:16 PM
Or maybe they just think you are a tyre kicker whom they should neither waste their time on or give away corporate information to?

Scottish Clubs have been down the route (SMG & Hearts as an example) of taking outside investment and after the initial cash is spent then what?

We either need someone with enough cash to buy out STF and then invest substantially in the club now and on an ongoing basis or someone to donate like some wealthy Aberdeen supporters have done.

If there isn't an individual or concert party of individuals able to do the former then there is absolutely no point in swapping an owner we know for an owner we don't.

The worries of what happens post STF are nothing compared to the uncertainty of what would happen to us if we sold to someone else with neither his contacts, influence or substantial cash and past business record opening doors for us.

Frankly I doubt whether such an individual or concert party exists and if I was their adviser I would be doing everything possible to dissuade them as its not only a poor investment but something that is going to give you so much personal grief that you would need to be nuts to consider it.

BTW threshold to buy out current owner is far less than £19m closer to £12 as IIRC around 30% of shareholding is owned by HSL and private investors?I'm not even sure that 12m is a realistic value.

Although the accounts show net assets of 19m, that's not really the club's worth. It's possibly what we could get by knocking down the ground for housing, and selling EM, but not as a business.



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Scotty Leither
26-10-2018, 08:42 PM
Or maybe they just think you are a tyre kicker whom they should neither waste their time on or give away corporate information to?

Scottish Clubs have been down the route (SMG & Hearts as an example) of taking outside investment and after the initial cash is spent then what?

We either need someone with enough cash to buy out STF and then invest substantially in the club now and on an ongoing basis or someone to donate like some wealthy Aberdeen supporters have done.

If there isn't an individual or concert party of individuals able to do the former then there is absolutely no point in swapping an owner we know for an owner we don't.

The worries of what happens post STF are nothing compared to the uncertainty of what would happen to us if we sold to someone else with neither his contacts, influence or substantial cash and past business record opening doors for us.

Frankly I doubt whether such an individual or concert party exists and if I was their adviser I would be doing everything possible to dissuade them as its not only a poor investment but something that is going to give you so much personal grief that you would need to be nuts to consider it.

BTW threshold to buy out current owner is far less than £19m closer to £12 as IIRC around 30% of shareholding is owned by HSL and private investors?

Nah, not a tyre kicker, just someone who's spoken with various Hibs directors on many issues (offering suggestions to improve various things such as the BTG matchday experience) and just been met with indifference and radio silence - I've always had the impression they're guarded in what they say to such a point they're scared to say anything. That's maybe a different thread for a different day, though.

As to your last point, i'll venture the buyout threshold is closer to the higher figure than the lower one.

Caversham Green
26-10-2018, 10:05 PM
It should be noted that the bottom line of the Balance Sheet is not intended to give any indication of the 'market value' of any shareholdings or of the club itself. The two major assets - the stadium and the training centre - are valued at what was originally replacement value (i.e what it would cost to build them from scratch) less depreciation and that doesn't in any way reflect what they could be sold for. The club is not realistically going to produce any income for an 'investor' as a going concern so £19.7m is not a realistic value, particularly with control diminishing every time new shares are issued.

The best indication of the value of the club should be to look at the price of the original share offer of a 49% holding which IIRC was £2.5m. That puts the MV of whole share capital at a tad over £5m. However, there's little doubt that those shares were offered at below value so that can't be depended on either.

The true value of STF's shareholding is what would be agreed between seller and buyer and we have no way of quantifying that without putting in a legitimate offer.

The Spaceman
26-10-2018, 10:19 PM
I mean fair ******s to them. Hard for us to replicate though as their fans aren't doing this out of the pure goodness of their hearts, they did this as a desperate and ultimately successful attempt to keep their club from closing its doors forever.

BSEJVT
27-10-2018, 04:47 AM
I'm not even sure that 12m is a realistic value.

Although the accounts show net assets of 19m, that's not really the club's worth. It's possibly what we could get by knocking down the ground for housing, and selling EM, but not as a business.



Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

Agree entirely

I was using posters figures to illustrate point

BSEJVT
27-10-2018, 05:05 AM
Nah, not a tyre kicker, just someone who's spoken with various Hibs directors on many issues (offering suggestions to improve various things such as the BTG matchday experience) and just been met with indifference and radio silence - I've always had the impression they're guarded in what they say to such a point they're scared to say anything. That's maybe a different thread for a different day, though.

As to your last point, i'll venture the buyout threshold is closer to the higher figure than the lower one.

Clearly I don't know who or what you are, but one mans helpful suggestor is another's tyre kicker :-)

Not a chance that anyone would pay £19m or anywhere close for Hibs unless they were going to asset strip us and shut us down.

I find the idea that folk think that there is some altruistic philanthropist out there just desperate to flush wedges of cash down the toilet for ever and a day by buying and investing continuously in Hibs laughable, there is not and never will be.

The richest person who has or ever will own Hibs is STF, and he quite rightly doesn't want to throw more cash at it.

The sooner folk get their heads round the idea that we can only spend what we bring in and not pin all their hopes on someone riding to the rescue and throwing buckets of cash at us to overcome FOH's contribution advantage to Hearts then the better we will be placed to meet that challenge.

I read often that we should obtain better commercial income / sponsorship / donations, maybe we should but whatever we are doing in that regard others are also and any advantage gained would be short term in nature.

FOH is (or more accurately will be) a separate income stream to Hearts provided for by the fans for the "football department", why folk cant see that the massive disparity between what they raise and we raise will one day bite us badly on the backside totally mystifies me.

All the other statements as to why they raise much much more, hour of need stuff, we can do the same from alternative sources etc etc is just folk holding on to whatever comfort blanket they can find.

They are utterly delusional if they think that if the status quo persists that it wont have a huge effect on what happens on the park in years to come. It did for the last 40 until their admin event.

I suppose the penny will ultimately drop for many, as it often does, when it is far too late.

Libby Hibby
27-10-2018, 05:40 AM
I mean fair ******s to them. Hard for us to replicate though as their fans aren't doing this out of the pure goodness of their hearts, they did this as a desperate and ultimately successful attempt to keep their club from closing its doors forever.

I agree, fair play to them but the history on how the 2 schemes started is in the past.

The motives for the fan ownership scheme are exactly the same now. To give both clubs investment from their own fans contributions.

Hopefully you do contribute but if you don’t it would be interesting to find out what it would take to convince you to do so.

Viva_Palmeiras
27-10-2018, 05:58 AM
M
Clearly I don't know who or what you are, but one mans helpful suggestor is another's tyre kicker :-)

Not a chance that anyone would pay £19m or anywhere close for Hibs unless they were going to asset strip us and shut us down.

I find the idea that folk think that there is some altruistic philanthropist out there just desperate to flush wedges of cash down the toilet for ever and a day by buying and investing continuously in Hibs laughable, there is not and never will be.

The richest person who has or ever will own Hibs is STF, and he quite rightly doesn't want to throw more cash at it.

The sooner folk get their heads round the idea that we can only spend what we bring in and not pin all their hopes on someone riding to the rescue and throwing buckets of cash at us to overcome FOH's contribution advantage to Hearts then the better we will be placed to meet that challenge.

I read often that we should obtain better commercial income / sponsorship / donations, maybe we should but whatever we are doing in that regard others are also and any advantage gained would be short term in nature.

FOH is (or more accurately will be) a separate income stream to Hearts provided for by the fans for the "football department", why folk cant see that the massive disparity between what they raise and we raise will one day bite us badly on the backside totally mystifies me.

All the other statements as to why they raise much much more, hour of need stuff, we can do the same from alternative sources etc etc is just folk holding on to whatever comfort blanket they can find.

They are utterly delusional if they think that if the status quo persists that it wont have a huge effect on what happens on the park in years to come. It did for the last 40 until their admin event.

I suppose the penny will ultimately drop for many, as it often does, when it is far too late.

Quite possibly victims of our own success as things look rosier than they have done in such a long time Building on the foundation laid the first wave (hopefully) culminating in the tangible hibstoric cup win.

Crowds up, most likely merchandising too. But pound for pound and giving the club a real shot in the arm to accelerate away nothing quite like tax efficient (free?!) supporter donations. So in as much as there is made play of our larger stadium capacity - FOH donations likely trumps that?

i asked the question around the time of Save Hearts In Trouble - with moves to new supporter based models does first mover give advantage for Heart and co. It would appear yes for Hearts. Borne out of necessity and a bumpy ride to begin with with factions vying for control it appeared to settle and the is a way forward. But they have moved along the curve learning as they go. Others have to do the same but from a later starting point. The trick would be learning from what works and doesn’t and whether they can be applied elsewhere.

green day
27-10-2018, 11:55 AM
FoH have raised £8m in 5 years from 8000 pledgers.

An average of £1000 per pledger over 5 years, so £200 a head per year - about £16 a month per person.

Ignore the "they were in the crap and had to do it" comfort blanket, that was years ago - there has been no real drop off (and why would there be?) and this is an excellent system that so many have bought into.

It is a lot of money on an annual basis into their player budget in a couple of years time.

I am a member with a monthly DD, but dont think HSL in current form will ever raise anything like that.

LD and RP need to get their thinking caps on, otherwise we have a huge financial gap to fill.

Since90+2
27-10-2018, 12:03 PM
The point has been made before that the branding of HSL is far too corporate.

Hibernian Supporters Limited is just too bland for some fans to buy into. Foundation of Hearts and AberDNA are far better IMO.

superfurryhibby
27-10-2018, 12:58 PM
FoH have raised £8m in 5 years from 8000 pledgers.

An average of £1000 per pledger over 5 years, so £200 a head per year - about £16 a month per person.

Ignore the "they were in the crap and had to do it" comfort blanket, that was years ago - there has been no real drop off (and why would there be?) and this is an excellent system that so many have bought into.

It is a lot of money on an annual basis into their player budget in a couple of years time.

I am a member with a monthly DD, but dont think HSL in current form will ever raise anything like that.

LD and RP need to get their thinking caps on, otherwise we have a huge financial gap to fill.

There are differences that can’t be ignored surely? Between small shareholdings like mine and HSL we are seeing ownership of the club and it’s future being safeguarded in a manner that doesn’t apply to Hearts.

As a club we are moving steadily towards no debt/mortgage, once that half million plus per year stops we will surely benefit from our financial security. How are Hearts paying for their new stand?

They are off to a flier this season, but they have been mismanaged since Neilson left and the cash differences never translated to success on the field last season, the same with Rangers and now Aberdeen thus far this season. I’ll hang fire with worrying too much until the season pans out and in the meantime content myself with the certainty that we are moving in the right direction, own our training complex and are progressing to self sufficiency, whilst maintaining football standards.

NAE NOOKIE
27-10-2018, 01:26 PM
The point has been made before that the branding of HSL is far too corporate.

Hibernian Supporters Limited is just too bland for some fans to buy into. Foundation of Hearts and AberDNA are far better IMO.

The name is without doubt a result of what HSL actually is … IE a limited company whose sole purpose is to accumulate shares in Hibernian FC. In all honesty I don't think the name is the problem. The problem is very much a seeming inability to raise the profile of HSL and make the vast majority of Hibs fans, who don't frequent Hibs.Net, the Bounce or Facebook, aware of HSL and it purpose.

As a match going fan I can honestly say I cant point to a single instance, with the exception of a pitch side advert lost amongst all the other pitch side adverts, where I have noticed HSL being promoted within the stadium … It may well have been, but all I'm saying is that if it has I haven't noticed it.

The biggest challenge for HSL isn't just making fans aware that by contributing to it they will become members of an organisation which will at the end of the day have a massive influence in the control and future direction of the club, that they will be 'owners' every bit as much as STF ... they must also strive to make fans aware that the end game is for HSL members to continue with their contributions long after the shares available to buy are exhausted.

The Hibs database must have about 20,000 or more people on it ( that's a total guess BTW but for arguments sake lets say that's the figure ) If we could find somebody willing to sit down with that database and weed out the folk who are already HSL members and kids under the age of 18 lets say that leaves 10,000 people.

It would cost £5000 to post a 2nd class letter to those 10,000 people containing details of what HSL is, how to contribute and what HSL's eventual end game is … IE to become a vehicle which enables Hibs fans to contribute indefinitely to a fund which will be exclusively used to put a team on the park … and yes, I see nothing wrong with that literature containing scare stories about the dangers of falling too far behind FOH.

If such a mail shot was to prompt 500 people to contribute £10 a month to HSL that would equate to contributions of £60,000 per annum …. well worth the cost of the stamps I would have thought.

HSL don't seem to have looked into this so far as I'm aware and I scratch my head as to why not. I also scratch my head as to why the forum of choice for over 2000 Hibs fans STILL doesn't have an HSL sticky on it, in spite of thread after thread appearing on said forum bemoaning the lack of HSL members :dunno:

where'stheslope
27-10-2018, 01:35 PM
The name is without doubt a result of what HSL actually is … IE a limited company whose sole purpose is to accumulate shares in Hibernian FC. In all honesty I don't think the name is the problem. The problem is very much a seeming inability to raise the profile of HSL and make the vast majority of Hibs fans, who don't frequent Hibs.Net, the Bounce or Facebook, aware of HSL and it purpose.

As a match going fan I can honestly say I cant point to a single instance, with the exception of a pitch side advert lost amongst all the other pitch side adverts, where I have noticed HSL being promoted within the stadium … It may well have been, but all I'm saying is that if it has I haven't noticed it.

The biggest challenge for HSL isn't just making fans aware that by contributing to it they will become members of an organisation which will at the end of the day have a massive influence in the control and future direction of the club, that they will be 'owners' every bit as much as STF ... they must also strive to make fans aware that the end game is for HSL members to continue with their contributions long after the shares available to buy are exhausted.

The Hibs database must have about 20,000 or more people on it ( that's a total guess BTW but for arguments sake lets say that's the figure ) If we could find somebody willing to sit down with that database and weed out the folk who are already HSL members and kids under the age of 18 lets say that leaves 10,000 people.

It would cost £5000 to post a 2nd class letter to those 10,000 people containing details of what HSL is, how to contribute and what HSL's eventual end game is … IE to become a vehicle which enables Hibs fans to contribute indefinitely to a fund which will be exclusively used to put a team on the park … and yes, I see nothing wrong with that literature containing scare stories about the dangers of falling too far behind FOH.

If such a mail shot was to prompt 500 people to contribute £10 a month to HSL that would equate to contributions of £60,000 per annum …. well worth the cost of the stamps I would have thought.

HSL don't seem to have looked into this so far as I'm aware and I scratch my head as to why not. I also scratch my head as to why the forum of choice for over 2000 Hibs fans STILL doesn't have an HSL sticky on it, in spite of thread after thread appearing on said forum bemoaning the lack of HSL members :dunno:
Taking all your post on board, I feel the data base of Hibs.net could be used to email everyone who is using this board and the cost is nothing!
Its the same for Hibs own data base, everyone on it will probably have given an email address so that could also be used at no cost.
Every day we all receive emails and by sending this way it could give a return at no cost to our already paying HSL members!!!

Just Alf
27-10-2018, 01:44 PM
HSL are a share holder of Hibs, it would probably be a breach of data protection for them to give out the info?

Maybe Hibs could agree to include info on HSL when sending out other info tho?

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Pagan Hibernia
27-10-2018, 02:40 PM
There are differences that can’t be ignored surely? Between small shareholdings like mine and HSL we are seeing ownership of the club and it’s future being safeguarded in a manner that doesn’t apply to Hearts.

As a club we are moving steadily towards no debt/mortgage, once that half million plus per year stops we will surely benefit from our financial security. How are Hearts paying for their new stand?

They are off to a flier this season, but they have been mismanaged since Neilson left and the cash differences never translated to success on the field last season, the same with Rangers and now Aberdeen thus far this season. I’ll hang fire with worrying too much until the season pans out and in the meantime content myself with the certainty that we are moving in the right direction, own our training complex and are progressing to self sufficiency, whilst maintaining football standards.


in the near future FOH will own 100% of HMFC and their future will also be safeguarded. Now obviously complete fan ownership is a step into the dark for most clubs, but with an additional £1.4 million or whatever it is pouring in every year they should be ok.

regarding the new stand, FOH are paying for that, which is why the date they take full ownership has been delayed.

And yes, having extra cash is no guarantee of success in the here and now but over time it usually is. Just look at the old form dominance over decades and decades

A Hi-Bee
27-10-2018, 02:56 PM
Some tend to forget that even Mega Rich Man City had to go out there and sell them self’s, with a well documented presentation and it took them a while, they were almost at the stage of closing the doors when they managed to convince the Qatar Fund to invest in them. Nothing comes to them that waits, now I have no idea if Hibs have any such plans to go out and try selling themselves to the money men and women around. But interestingly enough it was reckoned just a couple of years ago that if someone was to invest in a Scottish team (not just out great team but any of the top six) they could almost be guaranteed European Champions league football with an investment of around 50million pounds, which is chicken**** when you look at what some of the English clubs are spending to try and reach the same.
I thought it was interesting at the time. Until such time it is up to us supporters to dig as deep as we can to keep the unwashed in their place.

OfficialHSL
27-10-2018, 03:08 PM
The name is without doubt a result of what HSL actually is … IE a limited company whose sole purpose is to accumulate shares in Hibernian FC. In all honesty I don't think the name is the problem. The problem is very much a seeming inability to raise the profile of HSL and make the vast majority of Hibs fans, who don't frequent Hibs.Net, the Bounce or Facebook, aware of HSL and it purpose.

As a match going fan I can honestly say I cant point to a single instance, with the exception of a pitch side advert lost amongst all the other pitch side adverts, where I have noticed HSL being promoted within the stadium … It may well have been, but all I'm saying is that if it has I haven't noticed it.

The biggest challenge for HSL isn't just making fans aware that by contributing to it they will become members of an organisation which will at the end of the day have a massive influence in the control and future direction of the club, that they will be 'owners' every bit as much as STF ... they must also strive to make fans aware that the end game is for HSL members to continue with their contributions long after the shares available to buy are exhausted.

The Hibs database must have about 20,000 or more people on it ( that's a total guess BTW but for arguments sake lets say that's the figure ) If we could find somebody willing to sit down with that database and weed out the folk who are already HSL members and kids under the age of 18 lets say that leaves 10,000 people.

It would cost £5000 to post a 2nd class letter to those 10,000 people containing details of what HSL is, how to contribute and what HSL's eventual end game is … IE to become a vehicle which enables Hibs fans to contribute indefinitely to a fund which will be exclusively used to put a team on the park … and yes, I see nothing wrong with that literature containing scare stories about the dangers of falling too far behind FOH.

If such a mail shot was to prompt 500 people to contribute £10 a month to HSL that would equate to contributions of £60,000 per annum …. well worth the cost of the stamps I would have thought.

HSL don't seem to have looked into this so far as I'm aware and I scratch my head as to why not. I also scratch my head as to why the forum of choice for over 2000 Hibs fans STILL doesn't have an HSL sticky on it, in spite of thread after thread appearing on said forum bemoaning the lack of HSL members :dunno:

NaeNookie

Thank you for your suggestions. Please note we have tried this. The Club last year very kindly sent out an email to everyone on their database ( about 30,000 ) from HSL which explained what we are about and what we are trying to achieve. We will of course happily give this another try if the Club are willing to do this.


HSL

OfficialHSL
27-10-2018, 03:23 PM
No.

CWG

Not quite sure that is correct. They are in the final stage of the purchase transaction which requires them to repay Ann Budge the £2.5m that she originally paid for the Club. Our understanding is that they are well on the way having paid over £500,000 of this remaining amount. They also now own 35% of the Club.


HSL

MB62
27-10-2018, 03:24 PM
Anything that entices our fans to put more money into the club has to be a good thing surely

Sent from my VTR-L09 using Tapatalk

HSL replying to a PM on this board about how to subscribe might be a decent way to start :brickwall

MSK
27-10-2018, 03:28 PM
HSL replying to a PM on this board about how to subscribe might be a decent way to start :brickwallGo to the website, its a dawdle, my 7 yo Neice set mines up

green day
27-10-2018, 03:31 PM
HSL replying to a PM on this board about how to subscribe might be a decent way to start :brickwall

No being funny, but wouldnt going to the HSL website be the place to start rather than pm-ing someone on .net????

Leithenhibby
27-10-2018, 03:34 PM
HSL replying to a PM on this board about how to subscribe might be a decent way to start :brickwall

This is the way, will take a couple of minutes. :aok:

https://hiberniansupporters.co.uk/

OfficialHSL
27-10-2018, 03:50 PM
HSL replying to a PM on this board about how to subscribe might be a decent way to start :brickwall

Thank you for your kind offer to support the cause. We are sorry for the delay in responding to your PM but the reality is that we are not able to come on to Hibs.Net every day. We have flagged this up before as we also have capacity issues on the pm section. It is always best to email us at info@hiberniansupporters.co.uk.

Hope this hasn't put you off.

HSL

MB62
27-10-2018, 03:55 PM
This is the way, will take a couple of minutes. :aok:

https://hiberniansupporters.co.uk/


Now done :hibees :nlgwa

Leithenhibby
27-10-2018, 04:28 PM
Now done :hibees :nlgwa


Brilliant, not so difficult after all. :greengrin:greengrin:aok:

GGTTH

CropleyWasGod
27-10-2018, 04:32 PM
CWG

Not quite sure that is correct. They are in the final stage of the purchase transaction which requires them to repay Ann Budge the £2.5m that she originally paid for the Club. Our understanding is that they are well on the way having paid over £500,000 of this remaining amount. They also now own 35% of the Club.


HSL

Cheers.

I'm going on the last set of accounts. Their 2018 accounts should be out soon, which will give us an updated position.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

weecounty hibby
27-10-2018, 06:00 PM
Just signed up, only reason I havent before was due to apathy I suppose. Felt the club was going in the right direction on and off field, already have an ST for me and the laddie, Hibs kids for my daughter, spend a fortune in the shop, another small fortune travelling to games. But reading these HSL threads and seeing how much Save Hearts In Trouble have donated and will continue to donate I just cant see any reason that if you can afford to, and fortunately I probably can, then you should.
:nlgwa

Libby Hibby
27-10-2018, 06:32 PM
Just signed up, only reason I havent before was due to apathy I suppose. Felt the club was going in the right direction on and off field, already have an ST for me and the laddie, Hibs kids for my daughter, spend a fortune in the shop, another small fortune travelling to games. But reading these HSL threads and seeing how much Save Hearts In Trouble have donated and will continue to donate I just cant see any reason that if you can afford to, and fortunately I probably can, then you should.
:nlgwa

Welcome aboard... hopefully others will follow suit

superfurryhibby
27-10-2018, 06:33 PM
in the near future FOH will own 100% of HMFC and their future will also be safeguarded. Now obviously complete fan ownership is a step into the dark for most clubs, but with an additional £1.4 million or whatever it is pouring in every year they should be ok.

regarding the new stand, FOH are paying for that, which is why the date they take full ownership has been delayed.

And yes, having extra cash is no guarantee of success in the here and now but over time it usually is. Just look at the old form dominance over decades and decades

Mmmm, just been looking on here

https://www.foundationofhearts.org/news/redevelopment-contributions-statement/

There doesn’t appear to be any timetable for transfer of ownership of Heart to FOH, but it does say Budge agreed to defer repayment of Bidco loans if the FOH raised 3 million towards the cost of the new stand.

How much did the stand actually cost and how much does BIdco want paid back? Even at 1.4 million a year in pledges, surely they will also need to factor in other significant costs, like wages, rent for Oriam?

Seems almost miraculous that they can build a stand and pay back a minimum of 2.5 million to Bidco, plus pay big wages to a bloated squad.

As for extra cash and success, yes there usually is a correlation, but I gave examples of Hearts and Rangers last season and Aberdeen this season so far to highlight that it isn’t a given. Just to emphasise that point, look at our club. Pretty mediocre for a good few years prior to relegation, but no doubt paying way more in wages than many of the clubs outperforming us in that time.

Still another Hibs net myth about FOH paying in and getting nowt back does seem a pretty hollow claim.

roc1
27-10-2018, 06:44 PM
Now done :hibees :nlgwa

Welcome on board Mike. I only joined up recently and view it as a couple of beers worth to help something at the heart beat of my life. Bit like another club we know 😁 cheers

Skol
27-10-2018, 07:51 PM
I agree, fair play to them but the history on how the 2 schemes started is in the past.

The motives for the fan ownership scheme are exactly the same now. To give both clubs investment from their own fans contributions.

Hopefully you do contribute but if you don’t it would be interesting to find out what it would take to convince you to do so.

I know this wasnt directed at me ,but I will give my view. Again.

For all that I want to see a succesfull team, there is a limit to the amount I am willing to pay for my football and at this stage I feel I put as much in as I feel is appropriate.. Another £15 a month is a lot extra to pay.

If we found ourselves in the same situation as Hearts were I may change my view

Just Alf
27-10-2018, 08:56 PM
I know this wasnt directed at me ,but I will give my view. Again.

For all that I want to see a succesfull team, there is a limit to the amount I am willing to pay for my football and at this stage I feel I put as much in as I feel is appropriate.. Another £15 a month is a lot extra to pay.

If we found ourselves in the same situation as Hearts were I may change my viewAnd that's a perfectly appropriate and understandable view and not a single person will argue against that... In fact HSL are almost boring by adding the "affordability" strapline everytime they promote themselves.

I'm slightly different, a change in circumstances means a season ticket is no longer a viable option for me just now but instead of not supporting the club at all I pay what I can towards HSL.



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NAE NOOKIE
27-10-2018, 09:26 PM
I know this wasnt directed at me ,but I will give my view. Again.

For all that I want to see a succesfull team, there is a limit to the amount I am willing to pay for my football and at this stage I feel I put as much in as I feel is appropriate.. Another £15 a month is a lot extra to pay.

If we found ourselves in the same situation as Hearts were I may change my view

I doubt anyone could have a problem with this mate. At the end of the day football, no matter how much of an emotional attachment you have to it, is a pastime, a game, an add on to real life … It should never be the case that a persons financial commitment to it should be a 'sacrifice' or that day to day important finances have to be juggled in order to accommodate it.

For my part, though my love of Hibs could never be questioned there has been times in my life where family commitments meant my disposable income wasn't enough to cover anything but a few games a season. It has been the same with HSL … When I retired from work I used a small part of my 'lump sum' to purchase the minimum 5000 Hibs shares as a wee retirement present to myself and my monthly reduced income from my pension was barely enough to cover my ability to justify buying a season ticket.

I have since taken on a small part time job and I did that in order to cover the cost of attending the football every week, a bye product of that is that I have found myself in a position where I have been able to commit £10 a month to HSL.

The one thing I would say is that the phrase 'if you can afford it' is paramount here … I have never thought and will never agree, that a persons right to call themselves a true Hibs fan can be measured by how much money they spend on the club … If you can afford one game a season and you attend that one game how does that make you any less of a fan than one to whom the cost of a season ticket is affordable, and its the same with HSL … if you are having to find the money to contribute and you do so then fair play to you, but if you cant that doesn't make you less of a fan.

The message is simple … if you can afford it do it, if you cant, or if you feel commitments you have already made to following the club are the limit you are prepared to go to, then nobody has the right to think less of you as a result.

Pagan Hibernia
27-10-2018, 10:38 PM
I doubt anyone could have a problem with this mate. At the end of the day football, no matter how much of an emotional attachment you have to it, is a pastime, a game, an add on to real life … It should never be the case that a persons financial commitment to it should be a 'sacrifice' or that day to day important finances have to be juggled in order to accommodate it.

For my part, though my love of Hibs could never be questioned there has been times in my life where family commitments meant my disposable income wasn't enough to cover anything but a few games a season. It has been the same with HSL … When I retired from work I used a small part of my 'lump sum' to purchase the minimum 5000 Hibs shares as a wee retirement present to myself and my monthly reduced income from my pension was barely enough to cover my ability to justify buying a season ticket.

I have since taken on a small part time job and I did that in order to cover the cost of attending the football every week, a bye product of that is that I have found myself in a position where I have been able to commit £10 a month to HSL.

The one thing I would say is that the phrase 'if you can afford it' is paramount here … I have never thought and will never agree, that a persons right to call themselves a true Hibs fan can be measured by how much money they spend on the club … If you can afford one game a season and you attend that one game how does that make you any less of a fan than one to whom the cost of a season ticket is affordable, and its the same with HSL … if you are having to find the money to contribute and you do so then fair play to you, but if you cant that doesn't make you less of a fan.

The message is simple … if you can afford it do it, if you cant, or if you feel commitments you have already made to following the club are the limit you are prepared to go to, then nobody has the right to think less of you as a result.

spot on.

i contribute monthly to HSL. I’d like to up my direct debit but I can’t afford to, simple as that.

i will however make a special one off donation if we win at Tynecastle on Wednesday night. (Our record there makes me think I’m on safe enough ground with that one :greengrin)

Lancs Harp
27-10-2018, 11:20 PM
I doubt anyone could have a problem with this mate. At the end of the day football, no matter how much of an emotional attachment you have to it, is a pastime, a game, an add on to real life … It should never be the case that a persons financial commitment to it should be a 'sacrifice' or that day to day important finances have to be juggled in order to accommodate it.

For my part, though my love of Hibs could never be questioned there has been times in my life where family commitments meant my disposable income wasn't enough to cover anything but a few games a season. It has been the same with HSL … When I retired from work I used a small part of my 'lump sum' to purchase the minimum 5000 Hibs shares as a wee retirement present to myself and my monthly reduced income from my pension was barely enough to cover my ability to justify buying a season ticket.

I have since taken on a small part time job and I did that in order to cover the cost of attending the football every week, a bye product of that is that I have found myself in a position where I have been able to commit £10 a month to HSL.

The one thing I would say is that the phrase 'if you can afford it' is paramount here … I have never thought and will never agree, that a persons right to call themselves a true Hibs fan can be measured by how much money they spend on the club … If you can afford one game a season and you attend that one game how does that make you any less of a fan than one to whom the cost of a season ticket is affordable, and its the same with HSL … if you are having to find the money to contribute and you do so then fair play to you, but if you cant that doesn't make you less of a fan.

The message is simple … if you can afford it do it, if you cant, or if you feel commitments you have already made to following the club are the limit you are prepared to go to, then nobody has the right to think less of you as a result.

Top post mate.

superfurryhibby
28-10-2018, 12:01 PM
in the near future FOH will own 100% of HMFC and their future will also be safeguarded. Now obviously complete fan ownership is a step into the dark for most clubs, but with an additional £1.4 million or whatever it is pouring in every year they should be ok.

regarding the new stand, FOH are paying for that, which is why the date they take full ownership has been delayed.

And yes, having extra cash is no guarantee of success in the here and now but over time it usually is. Just look at the old form dominance over decades and decades

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/ann-budge-it-ll-take-another-year-to-complete-hearts-main-stand-1-4743304

Who is paying for the 15 million pound stand ( which remains unfinished) and the 850.000k new pitch? FOH donated 3 million to the stand, but that leaves a rather large mortgage and Budge still has 2.5 million ( plus interest) to recoup from her original investment.

I have never read their accounts, nor do I really know a great deal about their financial workings, bu5 when you add a 6 million wage bill I can’t help thinking their financial “advantages” more complex than you’ve suggested.

I’m intrigued to know more, will FOH own the mortgage for the stadium too? Who financed it, as surely no bank would lend them money?

CropleyWasGod
28-10-2018, 12:07 PM
https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hearts/ann-budge-it-ll-take-another-year-to-complete-hearts-main-stand-1-4743304

Who is paying for the 15 million pound stand ( which remains unfinished) and the 850.000k new pitch? FOH donated 3 million to the stand, but that leaves a rather large mortgage and Budge still has 2.5 million ( plus interest) to recoup from her original investment.

I have never read their accounts, nor do I really know a great deal about their financial workings, bu5 when you add a 6 million wage bill I can’t help thinking their financial “advantages” more complex than you’ve suggested.

I’m intrigued to know more, will FOH own the mortgage for the stadium too? Who financed it, as surely no bank would lend them money?There isn't a mortgage. They did take out loan facilities of £1.75m about a year ago.

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superfurryhibby
28-10-2018, 12:14 PM
There isn't a mortgage. They did take out loan facilities of £1.75m about a year ago.

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Is there no debt for the stand? I assume the loan was guaranteed by Budge?

It’s hard to grasp how they could have raised so much cash. FOH donated 3 million, that leaves a big shortfall.

tamig
28-10-2018, 12:15 PM
Is there no debt for the stand? I assume the loan was guaranteed by Budge?

It’s hard to grasp how they could have raised so much cash. FOH donated 3 million, that leaves a big shortfall.

I’m sure there was a sizeable personal contribution from Mrs B.

CropleyWasGod
28-10-2018, 12:20 PM
Is there no debt for the stand? I assume the loan was guaranteed by Budge?

It’s hard to grasp how they could have raised so much cash. FOH donated 3 million, that leaves a big shortfall.There definitely wasn't in the last accounts. The new ones are due soon and should give us more clarity.



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Baldy Foghorn
28-10-2018, 12:25 PM
I’m sure there was a sizeable personal contribution from Mrs B.

Sure their were a few big backers giving them sizeable sums

green day
28-10-2018, 12:26 PM
I’m sure there was a sizeable personal contribution from Mrs B.

And these unnamed donors

Austinho
28-10-2018, 12:35 PM
Must be a few rich Americans out there with plastic Irish/Scottish heritage who’d take some pride in chucking a few bob our way. Or some rich Aussie impressed by us having 3 Aussie Internationals. Would be good if the club thought outside the box a little :)

hibbydad
28-10-2018, 12:40 PM
You are right Baldy money pouring into them. Time some Hibs supporters smelt the coffee

Baldy Foghorn
28-10-2018, 12:44 PM
You are right Baldy money pouring into them. Time some Hibs supporters smelt the coffee

We have "millionaire" supporter's. I wonder if they are contributing?

hibbydad
28-10-2018, 03:32 PM
A good question Baldy

MrSmith
30-10-2018, 12:18 PM
Well done the Jambos!

So, this £8m equates to £1.6m per year since inception? And given the money was raised to buy the club, there has been no shareholdings/ers created and Budge has not been paid nor any ownership placed in the fan base?

JimboHibs
30-10-2018, 12:34 PM
Well done the Jambos!

So, this £8m equates to £1.6m per year since inception? And given the money was raised to buy the club, there has been no shareholdings/ers created and Budge has not been paid nor any ownership placed in the fan base?

Do you hear their supporters screaming about ownership or that Budge has or hasn't been paid ? You seem more concerned about it than any Hearts supporters I know off.
It's like its becoming our comfort blanket going on about what donations they've made are being spent on.

04Sauzee
30-10-2018, 12:49 PM
I know this wasnt directed at me ,but I will give my view. Again.

For all that I want to see a succesfull team, there is a limit to the amount I am willing to pay for my football and at this stage I feel I put as much in as I feel is appropriate.. Another £15 a month is a lot extra to pay.

If we found ourselves in the same situation as Hearts were I may change my view

What is the minimum amount?

Could you get together with a few mates who may be unwilling to put in a big wad of cash and put in a couple of quid each?

MB62
30-10-2018, 01:38 PM
What is the minimum amount?

Could you get together with a few mates who may be unwilling to put in a big wad of cash and put in a couple of quid each?

Don't see why not. I believe the minimum amount is whatever you can afford, although it might be £7pm (not sure)

superfurryhibby
30-10-2018, 01:48 PM
Do you hear their supporters screaming about ownership or that Budge has or hasn't been paid ? You seem more concerned about it than any Hearts supporters I know off.
It's like its becoming our comfort blanket going on about what donations they've made are being spent on.

Judging by the comparisons being made between FOH and HSL on the many recent threads, I would say there is plenty of interest in the respective activities of the two bodies.

Most of us have no idea what their supporters think of Budge, FoH, but there are quite a lot of claims being made about how their fundraising is making a difference and a few folk highlighting that there are a lot of grey areas and gaps around the reality of things.

A strange comment from you tbf.

BSEJVT
30-10-2018, 02:07 PM
Judging by the comparisons being made between FOH and HSL on the many recent threads, I would say there is plenty of interest in the respective activities of the two bodies.

Most of us have no idea what their supporters think of Budge, FoH, but there are quite a lot of claims being made about how their fundraising is making a difference and a few folk highlighting that there are a lot of grey areas and gaps around the reality of things.

A strange comment from you tbf.

Seems to me there are loads of Hibs supporters in denial over the actual and potential impact of FOH.

If we have now come to the point of debating at which point their far greater donations have or will take effect then not only have we lost the battle we have lost the war.

FOH provided working capital of £4m to get them up and running post admin.

Working Capital isn't that sexy or descriptive a phrase as to what the cash was spent on but like oxygen it gave them the ability to breath whilst the doctors were trying to stabilise the patient.

Lets be absolutely clear, without that £4m injection they wouldn't have existed. there is the difference on day 1 for you. I get that they could have borrowed it but from whom and their doing so would probably have scuppered the project there and then.

Thankfully through poor management, both construction management and football management, they haven't yet rammed home the advantage it gives them, but be under no doubt that if they hadn't had the FOH money that went to the stand they would have had to cut back on their playing budget to fund it, so there is another difference,

Its allowed them to put a better, albeit crap, team on the park than traditional income sources would have.

Seems to me that some folk on here want to wait for the car crash that this advantage undoubtedly gives them to occur to concede that their might be an issue,

Here's the thing there is no empirical proof out there that it has or will be a game changer for them and wont be until it slaps you in the kipper.

Try playing FM or having your relatives play and ask them what happens over a period to a team that has substantially more revenue than its peers.

Either that or replay the last 40 years.

I have no problem with folk that cant afford to or don't want to contribute to HSL but to pretend that there is not a huge issue looming is both stupid and disingenuous.

What is a manageable issue now if we get out acts together becomes less manageable with every minute we delay

CMurdoch
30-10-2018, 03:26 PM
Seems to me there are loads of Hibs supporters in denial over the actual and potential impact of FOH.

If we have now come to the point of debating at which point their far greater donations have or will take effect then not only have we lost the battle we have lost the war.

FOH provided working capital of £4m to get them up and running post admin.

Working Capital isn't that sexy or descriptive a phrase as to what the cash was spent on but like oxygen it gave them the ability to breath whilst the doctors were trying to stabilise the patient.

Lets be absolutely clear, without that £4m injection they wouldn't have existed. there is the difference on day 1 for you. I get that they could have borrowed it but from whom and their doing so would probably have scuppered the project there and then.

Thankfully through poor management, both construction management and football management, they haven't yet rammed home the advantage it gives them, but be under no doubt that if they hadn't had the FOH money that went to the stand they would have had to cut back on their playing budget to fund it, so there is another difference,

Its allowed them to put a better, albeit crap, team on the park than traditional income sources would have.

Seems to me that some folk on here want to wait for the car crash that this advantage undoubtedly gives them to occur to concede that their might be an issue,

Here's the thing there is no empirical proof out there that it has or will be a game changer for them and wont be until it slaps you in the kipper.

Try playing FM or having your relatives play and ask them what happens over a period to a team that has substantially more revenue than its peers.

Either that or replay the last 40 years.

I have no problem with folk that cant afford to or don't want to contribute to HSL but to pretend that there is not a huge issue looming is both stupid and disingenuous.

What is a manageable issue now if we get out acts together becomes less manageable with every minute we delay

How much money would it take for Hearts to pay off the new stand, new pitch, AB and all other loans TODAY?

MrSmith
30-10-2018, 03:36 PM
Do you hear their supporters screaming about ownership or that Budge has or hasn't been paid ? You seem more concerned about it than any Hearts supporters I know off.
It's like its becoming our comfort blanket going on about what donations they've made are being spent on.

Hardly concerned at all. Just working out the arithmetic and facts of their claim.

green day
30-10-2018, 03:50 PM
How much money would it take for Hearts to pay off the new stand, new pitch, AB and all other loans TODAY?

He doesnt know the answer to that - but that isnt really the point he was making.

Its really quite simple - Hearts fans donate £1.6m a year to the club.

I know a fair few jambos, and they cont give a monkeys how its spent, as long as it gives them an advantage.

BSEJVT
30-10-2018, 04:47 PM
How much money would it take for Hearts to pay off the new stand, new pitch, AB and all other loans TODAY?

Haven't a clue

Don't see it as relevant to the point made.

At this minute in time AFAIK they will buy their club in around 14 months.

They would need to be absolute rockets to enter into a deal whereby they take on new debts entered into after they struck deal terms without the recourse to revisit the purchase price they were paying.

Maybe they will pony up for some or all of this too. I haven't a clue.

The unescapable fact is that they raise far far more than we do and one day they will put it to good use.

If we get our act together now we can negate that advantage.

Look on the bright side, if the day their additional monies impact their side is delayed longer than expected any monies we raise now can help us ram it right up them until it does.

Dobosz83
30-10-2018, 08:15 PM
Martin Boyle now signed up and has been quoted suggesting he wasn’t fully aware of the initiative.

Do the clubs ‘official’ media Platforms not promote the players signing up? That would reach a much larger audience than here. There’s been a fair few of them recently being pictured putting pen to paper under the HSL banner.

BOB MARLEYS DUG
31-10-2018, 08:50 AM
Flo, Boyle, Mallan and Hanlon all signed up.

Speedway
31-10-2018, 11:04 AM
It's simple:

1. Yams care more about their club than Hibbies do about theirs.

2. The Yams are hungrier for success than Hibs fans are because Hibs won a cup in 2016 and that'll do them for the next decade/life.

3. The Yams care more about out performing Hibs on the pitch than Hibs do about out performing Hearts.

4. Yams are better educated than Hibs fans and have better jobs and more money to spend than the jakey hobo peg sellers do*

Now, of all the above statements, nobody has a leg to stand on in debating 1-3. The yams are putting their money where their mouths are and we just have mouths.

4. Is of course, not evidenced and is there because we complain that 'I don't like the name of HSL' or 'I'm skint' or 'I don't want my shares to be held collectively'. All denial statements. Call the Waaaahbulance.

The Yams are putting money in and we're no (to anything like the same level).

If we wanted to be at their level of contributions, we would be. We apparently are princesses who need HSL to woo us before we'll get into bed with them. FoH have simply called upon their supporters desire to make the club the best it can be. The Yams forego the foreplay.

It's simple.

660
31-10-2018, 11:23 AM
It's simple:

1. Yams care more about their club than Hibbies do about theirs.

2. The Yams are hungrier for success than Hibs fans are because Hibs won a cup in 2016 and that'll do them for the next decade/life.

3. The Yams care more about out performing Hibs on the pitch than Hibs do about out performing Hearts.

4. Yams are better educated than Hibs fans and have better jobs and more money to spend than the jakey hobo peg sellers do*

Now, of all the above statements, nobody has a leg to stand on in debating 1-3. The yams are putting their money where their mouths are and we just have mouths.

4. Is of course, not evidenced and is there because we complain that 'I don't like the name of HSL' or 'I'm skint' or 'I don't want my shares to be held collectively'. All denial statements. Call the Waaaahbulance.

The Yams are putting money in and we're no (to anything like the same level).

If we wanted to be at their level of contributions, we would be. We apparently are princesses who need HSL to woo us before we'll get into bed with them. FoH have simply called upon their supporters desire to make the club the best it can be. The Yams forego the foreplay.

It's simple.

Nice troll.

MB62
31-10-2018, 02:24 PM
It's simple:

1. Yams care more about their club than Hibbies do about theirs.

2. The Yams are hungrier for success than Hibs fans are because Hibs won a cup in 2016 and that'll do them for the next decade/life.

3. The Yams care more about out performing Hibs on the pitch than Hibs do about out performing Hearts.

4. Yams are better educated than Hibs fans and have better jobs and more money to spend than the jakey hobo peg sellers do*

Now, of all the above statements, nobody has a leg to stand on in debating 1-3. The yams are putting their money where their mouths are and we just have mouths.

4. Is of course, not evidenced and is there because we complain that 'I don't like the name of HSL' or 'I'm skint' or 'I don't want my shares to be held collectively'. All denial statements. Call the Waaaahbulance.

The Yams are putting money in and we're no (to anything like the same level).

If we wanted to be at their level of contributions, we would be. We apparently are princesses who need HSL to woo us before we'll get into bed with them. FoH have simply called upon their supporters desire to make the club the best it can be. The Yams forego the foreplay.

It's simple.


3- That's all they have EVER cared about, and ever will care about, they care more about US than they do their own team. I would like to bet that, given the choice, they would much rather beat us tonight than have beaten Celtc on Sunday.

We are their reason for existing.