Ian Durrant - Neanderthal Bigot

[Carheenlea]

As long as we have bigots within our game continuing to peddle sectarian obscenities then we are still some way off yet from eradicating this blight from our country. It will be laughed off and we continue on as normal.

[Diclonius]

It's just a minority though.

[wpj]

As long as we have bigots within our game continuing to peddle sectarian obscenities then we are still some way off yet from eradicating this blight from our country. It will be laughed off and we continue on as normal.

Sorry pal at work, any chance of a link or context? Ta

[IGRIGI]

Sorry pal at work, any chance of a link or context? Ta

He was caught on film shouting "**** the Pope" at a Rangers Legends event.

[Carheenlea]

Sorry pal at work, any chance of a link or context? Ta

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/metro.co.uk/2018/10/22/fk-the-pope-rangers-legend-slammed-for-sectarian-slur-at-football-dinner-8062840/amp/

[Pretty Boy]

Sorry pal at work, any chance of a link or context? Ta

Durrant was at a club dinner, said/shouted '**** the Pope' and the other tables cheered.

I can't imagibe this is the 1st time this has happened at a Rangers event. Sweep sweep.

[Treadstone]

Do they ever grow out of this nonsense?

[Seveno]

I can’t understand why this was news. It is what we expect from these people and will always be so as long as that vile club exists.

[Carheenlea]

Durrant has received some criticism I see on Twitter from fellow Rangers fans. Not for the sectarian shouts, but for doing so without asking that everyone had their phones off as Bomber Brown did at a bash in The Louden before commencing with his speech.

[The Harp Awakes]

Durrant was at a club dinner, said/shouted '**** the Pope' and the other tables cheered.

I can't imagibe this is the 1st time this has happened at a Rangers event. Sweep sweep.

He was at the top 'legends' table with Barry Ferguson and Lee McCulluch and blurted it out when passed the microphone.

Never mind, just another ~1m of theses orcs to be outed in Scotland. The sad thing is that new bigots are being born every day and as long as this kind of stuff is tolerated at football and elsewhere the problem will never go away.

[BILLYHIBS]

Oh dear oh dear!

The Rangers the gift that keeps on giving! 😁

[WhileTheChief..]

It’s hardly news. Could’ve said this 30 years ago.

[JeMeSouviens]

Why do the Sun and the Record go in for these pretendy outraged "vile sectarian slur" articles? They know fine this is run of the mill Hun behaviour as 5 minutes near the Rangers support or a trip to SevcoMedia or FF will make abundantly clear.

Both Rangers have been a cancer on Scottish society.

[Bostonhibby]

I'm amazed he knows a three word sentence

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[makaveli1875]

**** the pope and **** the queen but for god sake leave the neanderthals out of this

[One Day]

I can’t understand why this was news. It is what we expect from these people and will always be so as long as that vile club exists.

Exactly, they never change and never miss a chance to play to the gallery

[SirDavidsNapper]

Unfortunately, as we all know, this is deep rooted with Rangers. It'll take generations to eradicate if at all. Passed an orange walk in Glenrothes the other week and the ammount of kids following it with Rangers tops on with their proud dads watching on was scary.

[Peevemor]

I was told by someone who knew him in his playing days that he's exceptionally thick.

[Frazerbob]

I bet his PIN number is 1690

[Bob1875]

Has anyone on here ever been to a football speakers night? If any of them were filmed and put on social media, the guys would all lose their jobs. Stop being offended by stuff 👍🏼

[basehibby]

Sorry pal at work, any chance of a link or context? Ta

Yeah - what has Durrant said or done? - difficult to discuss if you don't know what the topic is.

Edit - what an absolute ********. Not just that - what a bitter twisted anti-social moron. He deserves to be pilloried in the press over this and never given any kind of radio/tv gig ever in his puff.

More than that - the police should feel his collar over this - hate speech was outlawed in this country last time I looked.

[Bangkok Hibby]

I bet his PIN number is 1690

The thickos don't even realise everyone knows that's their pin number. Loads of them have this as their pin

[CropleyWasGod]

Has anyone on here ever been to a football speakers night? If any of them were filmed and put on social media, the guys would all lose their jobs. Stop being offended by stuff [emoji1360]That's offensive.

[emoji849]

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[Mick O'Rourke]

Yes i am offended ,not so much at his (unsurprising) probably drunken outburst of bigotry , but the thought that it appears in Scotland to be acceptable in many quarters to attack Catholicism.
Had he made a hateful comment about most religious/ethnic groups in public, i suspect it would have been reported differently and may well have been a police matter.

Only in Scotland,eh?

[Inconsequential]

I bet his PIN number is 1690 Is this a scene from a film? What was it now? Something about locomotives. :wink:

[Scotty Leither]

Has anyone on here ever been to a football speakers night? If any of them were filmed and put on social media, the guys would all lose their jobs. Stop being offended by stuff 👍🏼

It depends on your own personal filter, Bob. I'm by no means what you would call a "sensitive" type, but I stopped going to Sportsmans' dinners and bowling club smoker nights a good few years ago now precisely because of this type of "humour".

I'm led to believe it's still the norm at these nights from people that still go to them, and it's misogynist, hackneyed, and tiresome... and indicative of an intolerant culture that still thrives in Scotland, and shames us as a nation, sadly.

[DaveF]

It depends on your own personal filter, Bob. I'm by no means what you would call a "sensitive" type, but I stopped going to Sportsmans' dinners and bowling club smoker nights a good few years ago now precisely because of this type of "humour".

I'm led to believe it's still the norm at these nights from people that still go to them, and it's misogynist, hackneyed, and tiresome... and indicative of an intolerant culture that still thrives in Scotland, and shames us as a nation, sadly.

Couldn't agree more.

I had the misfortune to be at dinner in Whitburn many years back when John Brown was 'speaking'. Never, ever again for me.

[Carheenlea]

Couldn't agree more.

I had the misfortune to be at dinner in Whitburn many years back when John Brown was 'speaking'. Never, ever again for me.

Last one I was at was with Craig Brown as one of the guest speakers, and it was a bit unsettling listening to him f’ing and c’ing throughout. Not what I was expecting from him really. No controversial material, but swearing for laughs wasn’t for me.

[Bob1875]

Last one I was at was with Craig Brown as one of the guest speakers, and it was a bit unsettling listening to him f’ing and c’ing throughout. Not what I was expecting from him really. No controversial material, but swearing for laughs wasn’t for me.

If that unsettles you, then god knows how you survive 90 minutes at Easter Road.

[BILLYHIBS]

I bet his PIN number is 1690
Bet you cannot guess my pin and the code to our safe every holiday? 😎

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Hopefully it is something soothe him as he nurses his arthritic knee.

[Since90+2]

How seriously sad is it that such a saying can receive a loud set of applause in this day and age?

I'm assuming Police Scotland are investigating? If he has been caught on camera saying that he could be in bother.

[BILLYHIBS]

How seriously sad is it that such a saying can receive a loud set of applause in this day and age?

I'm assuming Police Scotland are investigating? If he has been caught on camera saying that he could be in bother.
See post No5

[Pretty Boy]

I think people sometimes need to take a step back and accept that criticising someones behaviour isn't necessarily the same as being 'offended' or being part of the 'PC brigade'.

I'm not offended by Durrant's words, it says far more about him than anything else, but I also realise that they fall into the category of 'that's not on'. We are supposed to believe we live in a wonderfully liberal, progressive and forward looking country and you get a guy shouting '**** the Pope' to loud cheers for the sake of cheap laughs. It just shouldn't be acceptable and accepting it is as just one of these things is why it will continue. I wonder how many people who see it as not that big a deal also criticise the 'majority' of Rangers fans who don't tackle this behaviour from the 'minority'.

I don't believe in the 90 minute bigot nonsense. If you indulge in behaviour like this, on either side of the divide, then you are helping to normalise it and keep it in the realms of acceptability, Durrant has spent much of his life in the OF goldfish bowl so really should know better.

[Jim44]

If that unsettles you, then god knows how you survive 90 minutes at Easter Road.

There’s a huge difference between sporadic swearing and cursing in a football crowd and a person formally addressing a captive audience.

[Chic Murray]

People need to get over it. I'm sure the Pope will.

He gets much more abuse from his own.

Got some big news about the KKK guys. Privately, I'm told they don't like "coloured people". (Stevie Wonder fans ken whits gaun pan.)

All this, the day after Derek Riordan admitted he hated Skacel. Imagine if other people took offence at that, how would you feel?

[SirDavidsNapper]

What saddens me is when Rangers were liquidated that should have been it. A golden chance to rid Scottish society of this kind of thing. It was an open goal. For me it's the biggest mistake this county has made socially. We/They had the chance and didn't take it. Gutwrenching.

[Scotty Leither]

Good thread this...

I've often said to my partner that once upon a time there's not one solitary subject that I wouldn't have laughed at - every joke has a victim and all that...as you get older though, hopefully your critical faculties develop and you realise that somebody, somewhere, would be hurt at some of the stuff that once passed as "all lads together" humour can actually be beyond the pale.

It would take a brave person to stand up at a "do" like the one Durrant was at and call him out for saying what he did. I shudder to think what the reaction would be and personally, i'd value my own personal safety beyond my moral indignation, I think.

I like to think though I would have challenged that racist old bigot on the Ryanair flight, but perhaps i'm not comparing like with like.

As I said in my previous post, I simply don't bother with these speakers nights any more, they're not for me, and the last one I attended was two years ago; where a guy called Clark Stuart (sp?) whose dress sense and humour was stuck in the 70s, shared a platform with Chic Young.

The only thing that offended me that night was how easy Young got his money; his fee was in excess of £500 for 35 minutes work, and I was incredulous at how utterly dire both him and his support act were.

Oh and the night ended with me having a drink-fuelled argument with an old guy who was extolling the virtues of Nigel Farage and UKIP.

As someone once said, "Go figure".

[Since90+2]

I think people sometimes need to take a step back and accept that criticising someones behaviour isn't necessarily the same as being 'offended' or being part of the 'PC brigade'.

I'm not offended by Durrant's words, it says far more about him than anything else, but I also realise that they fall into the category of 'that's not on'. We are supposed to believe we live in a wonderfully liberal, progressive and forward looking country and you get a guy shouting '**** the Pope' to loud cheers for the sake of cheap laughs. It just shouldn't be acceptable and accepting it is as just one of these things is why it will continue. I wonder how many people who see it as not that big a deal also criticise the 'majority' of Rangers fans who don't tackle this behaviour from the 'minority'.

I don't believe in the 90 minute bigot nonsense. If you indulge in behaviour like this, on either side of the divide, then you are helping to normalise it and keep it in the realms of acceptability, Durrant has spent much of his life in the OF goldfish bowl so really should know better.

Completely agree especially in regards to people just accepting it as has been shown on this thread.

[Bostonhibby]

It depends on your own personal filter, Bob. I'm by no means what you would call a "sensitive" type, but I stopped going to Sportsmans' dinners and bowling club smoker nights a good few years ago now precisely because of this type of "humour".

I'm led to believe it's still the norm at these nights from people that still go to them, and it's misogynist, hackneyed, and tiresome... and indicative of an intolerant culture that still thrives in Scotland, and shames us as a nation, sadly.And there we have it. Couldn't agree more. Have had the privilege of attending events where the main speaker is a sportsman first and second.

You might not always agree with their views about their choice of sport or even their team but because they are not defined by their lack of education or sheer prejudice they are above what sadly seems commonplace in certain parts of Scotland.

It's Scotland's shame and we will sadly always struggle whilst parts of society celebrate sub species behaviour like readily occurs at this type of event.

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[Chic Murray]

What saddens me is when Rangers were liquidated that should have been it. A golden chance to rid Scottish society of this kind of thing. It was an open goal. For me it's the biggest mistake this county has made socially. We/They had the chance and didn't take it. Gutwrenching.

I tend to disagree. As horrible as they are, at least we know where they are. It's a sad situation, but these people would not understand or accept that they are unacceptable.

I think about Mandela when it was suggested that the Springboks be scrapped. He said, dont take it away from them, it's all they've got left.

I don't think he was sympathetic to the Afrikaaners, just empathetic in that he knew that backed into a corner, they may come out fighting.

[Sylar]

"Nice one Simmy, nice one son..." :rolleyes:

BBC News interviewed the director of Nil by Mouth last night and he made a great point - it's not that the words themselves carry much clout in isolation, or have scope to properly offend people: it's that seeing people who played for/coached/were involved in some capacity with the club saying this crap so openly that it just results in legitimising this type of behaviour in wider society. If people look up to these idiots on the pitch, and hear them coming out with this type of crap, they think nothing of chanting it with 49k of their fellow pals every other weekend.

It's not that these footballers are responsible for the continued presence of sectarianism in our game - it remains a much bigger blight on the Scottish landscape than being a 90 minute weekend issue - but they have a platform to try and dismantle these prejudices and ideals. Yet Durrant and his ilk would far rather appeal to the lowest common denominator and continue to champion "The Rainjurs way".

It's utterly nauseating.

[WhileTheChief..]

All this Scotland’s shame stuff is ridiculous.

Nobody outside of Scotland gives a damn. Pretty much no one in Scotland gives a damn either other than rival football fans.

It doesn’t shame Scotland at all. At most Durrant should maybe be ashamed but I doubt he will be.

Saying F the Pope, is that really a hate crime?

How’s that different to saying F Jim Traynor for example?!!

Soon we’ll be wanting folk prosecuted for what they think.

[Bostonhibby]

I tend to disagree. As horrible as they are, at least we know where they are. It's a sad situation, but these people would not understand or accept that they are unacceptable.

I think about Mandela when it was suggested that the Springboks be scrapped. He said, dont take it away from them, it's all they've got left.

I don't think he was sympathetic to the Afrikaaners, just empathetic in that he knew that backed into a corner, they may come out fighting.

There's more than one vowel in Afrikaaners so it can't be linked to anything involving an analysis of what might make a jobby like durrant think, if indeed he is capable of independent thought.

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[ballengeich]

I once spent an evening in the company of one of Durrant's former school teachers. His summing up of the youngster's academic career was "Wee Durrant was always fighting".

Interestingly the pronunciation of the name has changed since his school days. His teacher emphasised the first syllable so that it, appropriately, rhymed with currant.

[Since90+2]

All this Scotland’s shame stuff is ridiculous.

Nobody outside of Scotland gives a damn. Pretty much no one in Scotland gives a damn either other than rival football fans.

It doesn’t shame Scotland at all. At most Durrant should maybe be ashamed but I doubt he will be.

Saying F the Pope, is that really a hate crime?

How’s that different to saying F Jim Traynor for example?!!

Soon we’ll be wanting folk prosecuted for what they think.

It's surely pretty obvious how saying F the Pope is different to saying F Jim Traynor. I'd have thought it wouldn't need explaining.

[Bostonhibby]

All this Scotland’s shame stuff is ridiculous.

Nobody outside of Scotland gives a damn. Pretty much no one in Scotland gives a damn either other than rival football fans.

It doesn’t shame Scotland at all. At most Durrant should maybe be ashamed but I doubt he will be.

Saying F the Pope, is that really a hate crime?

How’s that different to saying F Jim Traynor for example?!!

Soon we’ll be wanting folk prosecuted for what they think.I often share your views on posts here, but living down here you'd be surprised how often I get sucked into having to explain the religious hatred/west of Scotland divide away just because I happen to be Scottish. Usually arises when you are just out for a night out and they assume you follow one of the uglies.

It's unusual to see events like the one we're talking about here being so popular and in this case dealing with it, or not, is all within the brief of the Scottish parliament.

Doing nothing if the power exists seems shameful.



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[sadtom]

Durrant wants to make luurve to the Pope!?
Surely this is a dramatic change of heart and a development to be welcomed. 😉

[basehibby]

People need to get over it. I'm sure the Pope will.

He gets much more abuse from his own.

Got some big news about the KKK guys. Privately, I'm told they don't like "coloured people". (Stevie Wonder fans ken whits gaun pan.)

All this, the day after Derek Riordan admitted he hated Skacel. Imagine if other people took offence at that, how would you feel?

I am totally over it - my sleep will not be troubled - but that does not change the fact Durrant has been caught acting like a stupid ignorant ****er and that he deserves absolutely all the pelters he gets.

[Scotty Leither]

All this Scotland’s shame stuff is ridiculous.

Nobody outside of Scotland gives a damn. Pretty much no one in Scotland gives a damn either other than rival football fans.

It doesn’t shame Scotland at all. At most Durrant should maybe be ashamed but I doubt he will be.

Saying F the Pope, is that really a hate crime?

How’s that different to saying F Jim Traynor for example?!!

Soon we’ll be wanting folk prosecuted for what they think.

People are scared to speak out about it, that what shames us - institutionalised cronyism on both "sides" has also blighted Scottish society where nepotism (particularly in West of Scotland politics) flourished in the post-war years. Durrant's behaviour normalises bigotry - that's what's newsworthy about it, despite some on here thinking it's "ridiculous".

...and i dont think even the most gifted prosecution lawyer could make a case for jailing people for thought crime.

[Smartie]

All this Scotland’s shame stuff is ridiculous.

Nobody outside of Scotland gives a damn. Pretty much no one in Scotland gives a damn either other than rival football fans.

It doesn’t shame Scotland at all. At most Durrant should maybe be ashamed but I doubt he will be.

Saying F the Pope, is that really a hate crime?

How’s that different to saying F Jim Traynor for example?!!

Soon we’ll be wanting folk prosecuted for what they think.

There is a line though, and I think any of this FTP stuff crosses it.

If he shouted F Celtic, that's a football rivalry thing and that's fine. I don't have an issue with Barry Ferguson shouting F the SFA - he had his run-ins with them.

There is a certain amount of bad behaviour that should be tolerated behind closed doors at Sportsmen's dinners, hen nights etc.

But I do think someone who is still likely to be looking to be employed in Scottish football should be above that behaviour, and we should be aspiring towards seeing the older bigot generations die off.

[basehibby]

All this Scotland’s shame stuff is ridiculous.

Nobody outside of Scotland gives a damn. Pretty much no one in Scotland gives a damn either other than rival football fans.

It doesn’t shame Scotland at all. At most Durrant should maybe be ashamed but I doubt he will be.

Saying F the Pope, is that really a hate crime?

How’s that different to saying F Jim Traynor for example?!!

Soon we’ll be wanting folk prosecuted for what they think.


You are so wrong on so many levels.

Rangers and Celtic are two of the most visible "ambassadors" for Scottish culture in existence and they rarely fail to drag our country's name through the mud. They make us all look like a bunch of backwards knuckledragging ignoramuses. Your complacency may mean that you are happy to be identified with backwards sectarian bigotry - I am not at all happy about that and neither are many other Scots.

"Saying F the Pope, is that really a hate crime?" - now you are taking the pish shirley.

[Smartie]

Speaking as a non-bigoted Scottish Protestant, I hate having to acknowledge this stuff to Irish folk, people from elsewhere in the world of Irish origin and Catholics from overseas.

At least Scottish Catholics will have grown up with this crap so whilst they won't like it or approve of it at least they'll be aware enough not to be surprised by it.

I hate the fact that I have to answer for misbehaving huns. I object to the fact that I need to say stuff like "we're not all like that. They're erseholes that I wish didn't exist and suggest you do likewise".

It shouldn't be necessary in this day and age.

[Famous Fiver]

Apparently apologised.

'Didn't want to offend anybody'.

Must be thicker than his original remarks suggest.

Sectarianism, plain and simple.

[WhileTheChief..]

You are so wrong on so many levels.

Rangers and Celtic are two of the most visible "ambassadors" for Scottish culture in existence and they rarely fail to drag our country's name through the mud. They make us all look like a bunch of backwards knuckledragging ignoramuses. Your complacency may mean that you are happy to be identified with backwards sectarian bigotry - I am not at all happy about that and neither are many other Scots.

"Saying F the Pope, is that really a hate crime?" - now you are taking the pish shirley.

Nope, genuine question.

I take the sticks and stones line with this kinda stuff but genuinely don’t know if that is illegal or not.

[oldbutdim]

Apparently apologised.

'Didn't want to offend anybody'.

Must be thicker than his original remarks suggest.

Sectarianism, plain and simple.


Not really.

I'm pretty sure he DIDN'T think he'd offend anybody. Certainly nobody in attendance. And going by the reaction, the mood of the audience was right with him.
I'm not sure the polis would be that bothered either, not at the price they would have paid for the tickets and why ruin the night?


I agree he's thick though - just about as thick as the halfwit who filed it and aired it. Bit of an own goal there eh?

Sectarianism, and Durrant - both plain and simple.

[WhileTheChief..]

I often share your views on posts here, but living down here you'd be surprised how often I get sucked into having to explain the religious hatred/west of Scotland divide away just because I happen to be Scottish. Usually arises when you are just out for a night out and they assume you follow one of the uglies.

It's unusual to see events like the one we're talking about here being so popular and in this case dealing with it, or not, is all within the brief of the Scottish parliament.

Doing nothing if the power exists seems shameful.



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I’ll take your word on it.

I live in Glasgow now so can’t really comment on how others see us.

When it comes to the singing of songs at Ibrox or Celtic Park do you really think anyone outside of Scotland can understand what’s being sung?

Next time you watch a live English game see if you can work out the words to the songs they’re singing. Unless it’s obvious like “United, United” id bet you wouldn’t be able to make out the words!

Look, I’m not saying this kinda language is acceptable but I do object to the often trotted our line that Scotland should be embarrassed or ashamed.

I’m not at all. I won’t take responsibility for what Rangers or Celtic fans sing and I don’t agree that they tarnish Scotland’s reputation in the world.

Do we think all Italians are racist cause of a few Lazio fans for example?!

[hibbydog]

I’ll take your word on it.

I live in Glasgow now so can’t really comment on how others see us.

When it comes to the singing of songs at Ibrox or Celtic Park do you really think anyone outside of Scotland can understand what’s being sung?

Next time you watch a live English game see if you can work out the words to the songs they’re singing. Unless it’s obvious like “United, United” id bet you wouldn’t be able to make out the words!

Look, I’m not saying this kinda language is acceptable but I do object to the often trotted our line that Scotland should be embarrassed or ashamed.

I’m not at all. I won’t take responsibility for what Rangers or Celtic fans sing and I don’t agree that they tarnish Scotland’s reputation in the world.

Do we think all Italians are racist cause of a few Lazio fans for example?!

You make a gold point about stereotyping. I’d hope that nobody thinks us all as bigots just because we’re scottish.

But.....The sad fact amongst the ignorant and lazy minded is that it’s easier to pigeon hole people. And it happens all the time sadly.

So as long as this type of stuff comes up, I am indeed ashamed that it’s part of the culture of the lesser educated knuckle draggers in Scotland.

No they don’t represent me, but I’ve been asked about it several times when down south or abroad. And it’s depressing.

[Bostonhibby]

I’ll take your word on it.

I live in Glasgow now so can’t really comment on how others see us.

When it comes to the singing of songs at Ibrox or Celtic Park do you really think anyone outside of Scotland can understand what’s being sung?

Next time you watch a live English game see if you can work out the words to the songs they’re singing. Unless it’s obvious like “United, United” id bet you wouldn’t be able to make out the words!

Look, I’m not saying this kinda language is acceptable but I do object to the often trotted our line that Scotland should be embarrassed or ashamed.

I’m not at all. I won’t take responsibility for what Rangers or Celtic fans sing and I don’t agree that they tarnish Scotland’s reputation in the world.

Do we think all Italians are racist cause of a few Lazio fans for example?!

[emoji106]

All good points. I speak as I find. God knows there's plenty A holes down here but the religious bile really doesn't feature in the same way.

Italian, or any other countries hatreds are on their own doorsteps and for their own government to crack or ignore. A bit like Scotland.

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[ancient hibee]

I went to a rugby club dinner a few years ago.The main speaker was Tom Farmer.Needless to say there was no effing and blinding from him but what surprised me was how funny he was and he went down a storm.I stopped going to football dinners when it seemed to me that the speakers took the view that this lot are thick as mince I better throw in plenty swearing .It appeared pretty condescending in fact so I hope they weren't right.

[WhileTheChief..]

On the legality of it, are we saying that phrase is illegal specifically because it’s directed towards the Pope?

I’m assuming it’s still fine to say F Donald Trump. Or Nigel Farage. Or Ann Budge for example?

But Holy Cow you can’t dare say it about The Pope??

That just can’t be right? Can it?

[Hibbyradge]

Depressing.

[makaveli1875]

On the legality of it, are we saying that phrase is illegal specifically because it’s directed towards the Pope?

I’m assuming it’s still fine to say F Donald Trump. Or Nigel Farage. Or Ann Budge for example?

But Holy Cow you can’t dare say it about The Pope??

That just can’t be right? Can it?

It cant be right but the same folk that are greeting about Durrant were jacking off among themselves when Robert De Niro did his **** Trump rant .

[Bostonhibby]

On the legality of it, are we saying that phrase is illegal specifically because it’s directed towards the Pope?

I’m assuming it’s still fine to say F Donald Trump. Or Nigel Farage. Or Ann Budge for example?

But Holy Cow you can’t dare say it about The Pope??

That just can’t be right? Can it?Born and brought up a protestant. Now a proud atheist because of what religion has taught me.

It's fine to have a position on Trump and wee Nigel because of what they stand for if you happen to agree or disagree with them. Huns (a convenient collective name) like durrant hate millions of people they've never spoken to and the same could be said of the other ugly sisters.They probably haven't analysed it beyond FTP other FTQ as it fits in the society they live in and circles they move in?

It doesn't reflect well on the country they're in that over the decades not much has changed.

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[JeMeSouviens]

On the legality of it, are we saying that phrase is illegal specifically because it’s directed towards the Pope?

I’m assuming it’s still fine to say F Donald Trump. Or Nigel Farage. Or Ann Budge for example?

But Holy Cow you can’t dare say it about The Pope??

That just can’t be right? Can it?

Most of the people who shout it probably couldn't name the Pope. They're not shouting at him as an individual but as the figurehead of his religion. It's simple bigotry.

[Smartie]

It cant be right but the same folk that are greeting about Durrant were jacking off among themselves when Robert De Niro did his **** Trump rant .

F Trump is fine, as with F Theresa May, Maggie Thatcher, Nicola Sturgeon or Jeremy Corbyn. I have to say I didn't like the graphically violent language used about Theresa May by the Tory backbencher recently.

F Scott Brown is fine.

F Peter Lawwell is fine.

Football rivalry, a bit of bad language behind closed doors at a private event is fine.

F the pope isn't really ok in my book, or to say something like F all Roman Catholics.

Just my opinion and my moral code.

[Jim44]

All this Scotland’s shame stuff is ridiculous.

Nobody outside of Scotland gives a damn. Pretty much no one in Scotland gives a damn either other than rival football fans.

It doesn’t shame Scotland at all. At most Durrant should maybe be ashamed but I doubt he will be.

Saying F the Pope, is that really a hate crime?

How’s that different to saying F Jim Traynor for example?!!

Soon we’ll be wanting folk prosecuted for what they think.

Saying FTP is much more significant than saying F Jim Traynor.

Cursing that ignoramus means very little to virtually anyone and is insignificant in the bigger scheme of things. On the other hand, publicly uttering, singing and chanting FTP is an intentional act designed to anger and provoke thousands of Celtic fans. The same can also be said for the bigoted actions of Celtic fans with similar motives.

[WhileTheChief..]

^Yeah, I was really just wondering if it’s ilegal to say it as another posted thought I was on the wind up when I asked if it was a hate crime. I honestly don’t know if it is or not!

Are people not allowed to hold views that others may find reprehensible though? That’s a slippery slope to go down I think.

So as far as I can figure out it’s ok if I hate the Pope, or Protestants , or Jews or any religious group so long as I don’t say it.

It’s fine however to say I hate the English, or Rangers fans?

[Hibbyradge]

Most of the people who shout it probably couldn't name the Pope. They're not shouting at him as an individual but as the figurehead of his religion. It's simple bigotry.

Exactly right.

FTP actually means F all Catholics.

F Trump means F Trump.

[Hibbyradge]

^Yeah, I was really just wondering if it’s ilegal to say it as another posted thought I was on the wind up when I asked if it was a hate crime. I honestly don’t know if it is or not!

Are people not allowed to hold views that others may find reprehensible though? That’s a slippery slope to go down I think.

So as far as I can figure out it’s ok if I hate the Pope, or Protestants , or Jews or any religious group so long as I don’t say it.

It’s fine however to say I hate the English, or Rangers fans?

You can hold any views you like. Acting upon them may not be acceptable or even legal.

[Lancs Harp]

^Yeah, I was really just wondering if it’s ilegal to say it as another posted thought I was on the wind up when I asked if it was a hate crime. I honestly don’t know if it is or not!

Are people not allowed to hold views that others may find reprehensible though? That’s a slippery slope to go down I think.

So as far as I can figure out it’s ok if I hate the Pope, or Protestants , or Jews or any religious group so long as I don’t say it.

It’s fine however to say I hate the English, or Rangers fans?


Im deeply offended :greengrin

[makaveli1875]

Exactly right.

FTP actually means F all Catholics.

F Trump means F Trump.

F Trump actually means F Trump and the tens of millions of Americans who voted for him , and fine well you know it

[Smartie]

Im deeply offended :greengrin

We shouldn't really be airing generalisations about hating millions of people of a particular nationality or followers of a religion.

I don't really get offended when folk say stuff about hating Scots but I get that some folk do get bothered about it.

We shouldn't be talking of hating the English, hating the French, hating Americans or the like.

If someone wants to hold a private generalised opinion based on what their life experiences might be then that's up to them, I have no problem with that.

I don't think English Hibs fans should have to come onto a site for Hibs fans and read about folk hating the English.

I think they should expect some mirth and merriment when their national team loses however.

[Hibbyradge]

F Trump actually means F Trump and the tens of millions of Americans who voted for him , and fine well you know it

No it doesn't.

Those same Americans voted for Bush, but F Bush wasn't a thing.

The woman who had the Trump is a C*** banner was referring to the man, not nearly half the US electorate.

[WhileTheChief..]

Some interesting points and a far better discussion than everyone just shouting ‘vile Rangers’ etc.

Take away football rivalries for a moment and we barely have a sectarian problem in this country.

Education, housing, policing, employment - these are in no way blighted by it like they were decades ago. You simply do not get refused a job based on your religion nowadays.

It’s not not a problem in wider society. It’s not discussed around the dinner table or in the office like say Trump or Brexit might be.

It’s only ever mentioned in the context of the old firm. Some people might actually call that progress, and to a lesser degree a result.

For real religious bigotry take a look at the Middle East. We’re hundreds of years ahead and positively enlightened in comparison!!

[proud_and_green]

Couldn't agree more.

I had the misfortune to be at dinner in Whitburn many years back when John Brown was 'speaking'. Never, ever again for me.Yep me too. Was at one in Glasgow, Souness, Ref Rowbotham as main speakers. Shocking stuff, it wasn't even funny, just a long series of expletives and bad attempts as jokes as vehicles for more swearing. Gangrene would be funnier.

Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk

[WoreTheGreen]

Yep me too. Was at one in Glasgow, Souness, Ref Rowbotham as main speakers. Shocking stuff, it wasn't even funny, just a long series of expletives and bad attempts as jokes as vehicles for more swearing. Gangrene would be funnier.

Sent from my G8441 using Tapatalk

Gangrene was terrible full of poisonous venom

[Kato]

It’s only ever mentioned in the context of the old firm. Some people might actually call that progress, and to a lesser degree a result.




The Labour delegate at the recent LP Conference who singled out a woman for crossing herself? How was that in the context of the Old Firm?

[ian cruise]

Some interesting points and a far better discussion than everyone just shouting ‘vile Rangers’ etc.

Take away football rivalries for a moment and we barely have a sectarian problem in this country.

Education, housing, policing, employment - these are in no way blighted by it like they were decades ago. You simply do not get refused a job based on your religion nowadays.

It’s not not a problem in wider society. It’s not discussed around the dinner table or in the office like say Trump or Brexit might be.

It’s only ever mentioned in the context of the old firm. Some people might actually call that progress, and to a lesser degree a result.

For real religious bigotry take a look at the Middle East. We’re hundreds of years ahead and positively enlightened in comparison!!

I think you may have a slightly different point of view on this from others due to the fact you live in Glasgow, and much nearer the epicentre of the issue. I say this as someone from the area myself.

I think folk from outside of Glasgow see the antics of the old firm as an embarrassing thing, thinking it reflects on the country as a whole.

In Glasgow it's very much an us (the archetypal old form fans with their "traditions" and behaviours) and us attitude. People who aren't part of that don't identify with it and are embarrassed both by and for the people acting that way, but don't see them as a reflection of themselves of the city as a whole, and many old for fans fall in to that category.

I can understand both sides of the arguments being made, however you're definitely right when you say sectarianism is not the huge issue outside of football that it used to be. The bampots who still practice it and act upon it are just using it as a mask to justify their behaviour, if it wasn't religion it would be something else. They don't hate Catholics, they hate Celtic fans and things they associate with Celtic and removing the anti Catholic sentiments won't improve society, they won't change their behaviour, they just find a new reason to act that way. You just need to look at their new found hatred of Hibs, they find any excuse they can because we're not necessarily a Catholic club (I know that historically that was the case but it's not a thing that defines us the way it does with Celtic) so they use the Scottish Cup final, the Scott Allan transfer, the fact we've had Celtic loan players and this imaginary "affinity" we have. Really it's just because they needed a team to hate when they were a figure of fun for Celtic fans and we were a target as we were competition in the league and seem to have their number more often than not.

[Sir David Gray]

As a non-Roman Catholic, that particular phrase isn't offensive to me however it is something which should be deeply embarrassing to Ian Durrant, a man in his 50s, who is engaging in this language just to get a few cheap laughs and a round of applause.

Perhaps the most depressing aspect to all this is that Durrant's unlikely to face any action over this and there doesn't seem to be any kind of surprise that this has happened.

[BegbieHSC]

On the legality of it, are we saying that phrase is illegal specifically because it’s directed towards the Pope?

I’m assuming it’s still fine to say F Donald Trump. Or Nigel Farage. Or Ann Budge for example?

But Holy Cow you can’t dare say it about The Pope??

That just can’t be right? Can it?

It’s complete different in this context. I’m a catholic, and I moved from Edinburgh aged 6 to the West Coast (happily returned now.) I was in primary school late 80s/early 90s, and showing up to PE in Hibs shorts was enough to be berated as a ‘Fenian’ in a predominantly hun non-dom school. Primary school!

In the hun context, he’s not attacking Pope Francis as a person, but as the leader of the Catholic Church. I’m not looking to be offended, but it’s all about context. People don’t say **** Donald Trump because he’s the leader of the states - they say **** Donald Trump because he’s an arse hole!

Scotland has a serious, deep rooted problem with sectarianism, and with the huns, it’s all about living in the past, harking back to the days where razor gangs prowled the streets of Glasgow attacking Irish Catholics (as they sing about.)

if someone outside of Scotland said ‘**** the pope’ the chances are, it wouldn’t be considered as offensive - here however, it sadly has a different meaning.

Durrant is a complete knuckle dragger in my view, and it shows he’s really bought in to the Rangers bigoted psyche.

[Chic Murray]

There's more than one vowel in Afrikaaners so it can't be linked to anything involving an analysis of what might make a jobby like durrant think, if indeed he is capable of independent thought.

Sent from my SM-J320FN using Tapatalk

There's more than one in Kafir too, but I'm sure there must be some relevance to those who think they are God's chosen people, and Ibrox.

[Smartie]

I think you may have a slightly different point of view on this from others due to the fact you live in Glasgow, and much nearer the epicentre of the issue. I say this as someone from the area myself.

I think folk from outside of Glasgow see the antics of the old firm as an embarrassing thing, thinking it reflects on the country as a whole.

In Glasgow it's very much an us (the archetypal old form fans with their "traditions" and behaviours) and us attitude. People who aren't part of that don't identify with it and are embarrassed both by and for the people acting that way, but don't see them as a reflection of themselves of the city as a whole, and many old for fans fall in to that category.

I can understand both sides of the arguments being made, however you're definitely right when you say sectarianism is not the huge issue outside of football that it used to be. The bampots who still practice it and act upon it are just using it as a mask to justify their behaviour, if it wasn't religion it would be something else. They don't hate Catholics, they hate Celtic fans and things they associate with Celtic and removing the anti Catholic sentiments won't improve society, they won't change their behaviour, they just find a new reason to act that way. You just need to look at their new found hatred of Hibs, they find any excuse they can because we're not necessarily a Catholic club (I know that historically that was the case but it's not a thing that defines us the way it does with Celtic) so they use the Scottish Cup final, the Scott Allan transfer, the fact we've had Celtic loan players and this imaginary "affinity" we have. Really it's just because they needed a team to hate when they were a figure of fun for Celtic fans and we were a target as we were competition in the league and seem to have their number more often than not.

I think the sectarianism issue in every day life is improving - but it's not yet ideal.

I don't think younger folk buy into the nonsense as much as the old did, and I think places like the West of Scotland and Northern Ireland - where problems used to be rife - are reducing over time.

We shouldn't get complacent though, and it is wrong to suggest that this is acceptable behaviour. Whenever it is exposed it should be condemned, and it is fairly reassuring that this has been considered to be newsworthy and that most folk seem to accept that this wasn't a good thing for him to do.

[Since90+2]

It’s complete different in this context. I’m a catholic, and I moved from Edinburgh aged 6 to the West Coast (happily returned now.) I was in primary school late 80s/early 90s, and showing up to PE in Hibs shorts was enough to be berated as a ‘Fenian’ in a predominantly hun non-dom school. Primary school!

In the hun context, he’s not attacking Pope Francis as a person, but as the leader of the Catholic Church. I’m not looking to be offended, but it’s all about context. People don’t say **** Donald Trump because he’s the leader of the states - they say **** Donald Trump because he’s an arse hole!

Scotland has a serious, deep rooted problem with sectarianism, and with the huns, it’s all about living in the past, harking back to the days where razor gangs prowled the streets of Glasgow attacking Irish Catholics (as they sing about.)

if someone outside of Scotland said ‘**** the pope’ the chances are, it wouldn’t be considered as offensive - here however, it sadly has a different meaning.

Durrant is a complete knuckle dragger in my view, and it shows he’s really bought in to the Rangers bigoted psyche.

Good post.

[Chic Murray]

Durrant wants to make luurve to the Pope!?
Surely this is a dramatic change of heart and a development to be welcomed. ��

It's certainly a move forward on the issue of celibacy amongst the clergy.


I am totally over it - my sleep will not be troubled - but that does not change the fact Durrant has been caught acting like a stupid ignorant ****er and that he deserves absolutely all the pelters he gets.

Now, that's logic I can relate to, "as long as they ***** in our shoes, we'll piss in their Bovril".

What I can't take is all the righteous indignation on the subject. I happen to know of one ex Celtic player who has been barred from several pubs in Airdrie for stupid sectarian remarks.

I also happen to know of a Scottish actor who has international status, who will openly come out with anti Orange statements when watching the Old Firm game with pals.

We've tried to legislate against this, and we got nowhere. At the end of the day, people should be free to say whatever they want, and the only court that would matter is the opinion of decent people.

[jgl07]

You don't understand.

He is just signing a folk song.

[Famous Fiver]

Signing a folk song?

Lost me there.

[cleanyman]

More imporant things to be worrying about

Shouting FTP at a Rangers dinner was it?

Who cares

[The 90+2]

On the legality of it, are we saying that phrase is illegal specifically because it’s directed towards the Pope?

I’m assuming it’s still fine to say F Donald Trump. Or Nigel Farage. Or Ann Budge for example?

But Holy Cow you can’t dare say it about The Pope??

That just can’t be right? Can it?

It’s not though. It won’t be personally at the guy who the pope is just now it’s aimed at the head of the Catholic Church.

[The 90+2]

More imporant things to be worrying about

Shouting FTP at a Rangers dinner was it?

Who cares

You’re right. It’s to be laughed at how pathetic they actually are.

[Chic Murray]

It’s complete different in this context. I’m a catholic, and I moved from Edinburgh aged 6 to the West Coast (happily returned now.) I was in primary school late 80s/early 90s, and showing up to PE in Hibs shorts was enough to be berated as a ‘Fenian’ in a predominantly hun non-dom school. Primary school!

In the hun context, he’s not attacking Pope Francis as a person, but as the leader of the Catholic Church. I’m not looking to be offended, but it’s all about context. People don’t say **** Donald Trump because he’s the leader of the states - they say **** Donald Trump because he’s an arse hole!

Scotland has a serious, deep rooted problem with sectarianism, and with the huns, it’s all about living in the past, harking back to the days where razor gangs prowled the streets of Glasgow attacking Irish Catholics (as they sing about.)

if someone outside of Scotland said ‘**** the pope’ the chances are, it wouldn’t be considered as offensive - here however, it sadly has a different meaning.

Durrant is a complete knuckle dragger in my view, and it shows he’s really bought in to the Rangers bigoted psyche.

How does it have a different meaning?

I detect an element of one sidedness on your part. Are you seriously suggesting the only victims of sectarianism are Catholics?

I used to know a lady, who would accompany her friend on Tom Farmer's annual pilgrimage to Lourdes. Her friend was Catholic, she was Protestant. She was there as her friend's carer, and had a good relationship with most of the pilgrims.

She made the mistake of wearing Orange jeans on the 12th of July. She had no idea what the significance of that date was. Others in the party were quick to make sarcastic remarks about what she was wearing, sarcastic as in warnings that is.

There will be many more examples that would support the argument that neither side has much to crow about on this subject.

[Chic Murray]

It’s not though. It won’t be personally at the guy who the pope is just now it’s aimed at the head of the Catholic Church.

And many may say that he is fair game in a free society.

[Pretty Boy]

I think this is another example of people misunderstanding freedom of speech and expression. Neither of those things mean you can just say what you like without consequence or challenge.

Had Durrant said something along the lines of:

'I reject the idea of Papal infallibility. I find the position of Primate of Rome to suggest a conduit between man and God and I reject that. I also find the Catholic theological belief in the consecration and transubstantiation of the Eucharist to be flawed.'

Then his position would have been a reasoned argument that could have been debated. Instead he said:

'**** the Pope'

I can't help feel that's just an expressiom of his own ignorance and if there are repercussions it's him to blame and no one else.

[Greenfly]

What's the surprise? It was Ian Durrant - simply confirming his unreconstructed knuckle dragging views. The sadder thing is that he had a full audience who loved it because he's one of their own - a blue nosed, orange tinted bigot like the rest of them.

By the way, why do people say "****** the Pope?" Because it's easier to say than "****** the Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland" ... and as a Communicant member of that august body I think I can get away with saying that.

[Jack Hackett]

More imporant things to be worrying about

Shouting FTP at a Rangers dinner was it?

Who cares

A 4 page thread... so far... would suggest a few do. How does the saying go? 'If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem'

Too many people look the other way in Scotland

[Smartie]

I think this is another example of people misunderstanding freedom of speech and expression. Neither of those things mean you can just say what you like without consequence or challenge.

Had Durrant said something along the lines of:

'I reject the idea of Papal infallibility. I find the position of Primate of Rome to suggest a conduit between man and God and I reject that. I also find the Catholic theological belief in the consecration and transubstantiation of the Eucharist to be flawed.'

Then his position would have been a reasoned argument that could have been debated. Instead he said:

'**** the Pope'

I can't help feel that's just an expressiom of his own ignorance and if there are repercussions it's him to blame and no one else.

I would have loved it if his apology had included that passage by way of a justification though.

Shame he isn't even just a wee bit smarter.

[Greenfly]

I think this is another example of people misunderstanding freedom of speech and expression. Neither of those things mean you can just say what you like without consequence or challenge.

Had Durrant said something along the lines of:

'I reject the idea of Papal infallibility. I find the position of Primate of Rome to suggest a conduit between man and God and I reject that. I also find the Catholic theological belief in the consecration and transubstantiation of the Eucharist to be flawed.'

Then his position would have been a reasoned argument that could have been debated. Instead he said:

'**** the Pope'

I can't help feel that's just an expressiom of his own ignorance and if there are repercussions it's him to blame and no one else.


Exactly right. He's not a theologian - he's a d**k-head.

[malcolm]

I think this is another example of people misunderstanding freedom of speech and expression. Neither of those things mean you can just say what you like without consequence or challenge.

Had Durrant said something along the lines of:

'I reject the idea of Papal infallibility. I find the position of Primate of Rome to suggest a conduit between man and God and I reject that. I also find the Catholic theological belief in the consecration and transubstantiation of the Eucharist to be flawed.'

Then his position would have been a reasoned argument that could have been debated. Instead he said:

'**** the Pope'

I can't help feel that's just an expressiom of his own ignorance and if there are repercussions it's him to blame and no one else.

I am happy to say ’**** all religion’ without need to worry that it is not holding out any points for debate, I’ve done all my intelligent internal debating a long time ago. I guess you could say my derision is about the structures, beliefs, organisation and effects of religion whilst the likes of the durrant’s of the world are aiming at the people rather more than their faith. I also know that that such as he (and the discrimination it represents) are not just on the side of the line that most umbrage here is directed.

[Pretty Boy]

I am happy to say ’**** all religion’ without need to worry that it is not holding out any points for debate, I’ve done all my intelligent internal debating a long time ago. I guess you could say my derision is about the structures, beliefs, organisation and effects of religion whilst the likes of the durrant’s of the world are aiming at the people rather more than their faith. I also know that that such as he (and the discrimination it represents) are not just on the side of the line that most umbrage here is directed.

But you still gave an explanation for your feelings which is more than Durrant managed. It also seems evident your opinion on religion is shaped by a coherent thought process rather than an 'I hate feenyuns' mentality.

And I'd feel the same if Durrants comments had been aimed at Anglicans, Lutherans, Muslims, Scientologists or whoever else. I just don't like bigots.

[WhileTheChief..]

'I reject the idea of Papal infallibility. I find the position of Primate of Rome to suggest a conduit between man and God and I reject that. I also find the Catholic theological belief in the consecration and transubstantiation of the Eucharist to be flawed.'

Takes way too long to shout as an insult. I preferred Durrant’s version :duck:

[Tornadoes70]

How does it have a different meaning?

I detect an element of one sidedness on your part. Are you seriously suggesting the only victims of sectarianism are Catholics?

I used to know a lady, who would accompany her friend on Tom Farmer's annual pilgrimage to Lourdes. Her friend was Catholic, she was Protestant. She was there as her friend's carer, and had a good relationship with most of the pilgrims.

She made the mistake of wearing Orange jeans on the 12th of July. She had no idea what the significance of that date was. Others in the party were quick to make sarcastic remarks about what she was wearing, sarcastic as in warnings that is.

There will be many more examples that would support the argument that neither side has much to crow about on this subject.

Never seen many wearers of them going about very thankfully. Should be arrested for a crime against fashion. Orange jeans :rolleyes:.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

:flag:

[Sir David Gray]

I think this is another example of people misunderstanding freedom of speech and expression. Neither of those things mean you can just say what you like without consequence or challenge.

Had Durrant said something along the lines of:

'I reject the idea of Papal infallibility. I find the position of Primate of Rome to suggest a conduit between man and God and I reject that. I also find the Catholic theological belief in the consecration and transubstantiation of the Eucharist to be flawed.'

Then his position would have been a reasoned argument that could have been debated. Instead he said:

'**** the Pope'

I can't help feel that's just an expressiom of his own ignorance and if there are repercussions it's him to blame and no one else.

Durrant would struggle with how to pronounce transubstantiation, never mind fitting it into a sentence.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

And many may say that he is fair game in a free society.

And so is signing about Neil Simpson's tackle... i wonder if Durrant thinks thats ok?

[barcahibs]

I think this is another example of people misunderstanding freedom of speech and expression. Neither of those things mean you can just say what you like without consequence or challenge.

Had Durrant said something along the lines of:

'I reject the idea of Papal infallibility. I find the position of Primate of Rome to suggest a conduit between man and God and I reject that. I also find the Catholic theological belief in the consecration and transubstantiation of the Eucharist to be flawed.'

Then his position would have been a reasoned argument that could have been debated. Instead he said:

'**** the Pope'

I can't help feel that's just an expressiom of his own ignorance and if there are repercussions it's him to blame and no one else.

I agree and disagree.

100% agree that with freedoms and rights come responsibilities which too many dismiss.

But criticism of religion - and any power structure - should always be valid and protected. I don't need to leave room for debate in my opinions on religion - they're settled, valid (to my mind) and not going to change. Others can challenge my view if they wish, but I'm under no obligation to listen.

I also should be able to say f@*# the Pope in the same way I can say f@*# the head of any power structure/organisation that I feel is damaging to the society/world I live in.

A religious figure shouldnt have any special protections, if someone wants to say anything about them they absolutely must have the right to do so.
If they dont have that right then that's how we end up in the position where the church (of many flavours of course, not just Catholic) is allowed to abuse its privileged position - and much of that abuse is well within living memory.

But at the same time, while I've got the right to stand in a crowded room and shout f@*# the Pope without repercussion, I've got the responsibility to know that that action will affect others - even hurt others - and that I should carefully choose when and if to exercise my right.

This goes double for those whose actions and statements will be widely circulated and used by others.

Tldr

He's got a right to do it but it was a bloody stupid thing to do.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

No it doesn't.

Those same Americans voted for Bush, but F Bush wasn't a thing.

The woman who had the Trump is a C*** banner was referring to the man, not nearly half the US electorate.

Lilly Allan may have disagreed...😁

[Sir David Gray]

I agree and disagree.

100% agree that with freedoms and rights come responsibilities which too many dismiss.

But criticism of religion - and any power structure - should always be valid and protected. I don't need to leave room for debate in my opinions on religion - they're settled, valid (to my mind) and not going to change. Others can challenge my view if they wish, but I'm under no obligation to listen.

I also should be able to say f@*# the Pope in the same way I can say f@*# the head of any power structure/organisation that I feel is damaging to the society/world I live in.

A religious figure shouldnt have any special protections, if someone wants to say anything about them they absolutely must have the right to do so.
If they dont have that right then that's how we end up in the position where the church (of many flavours of course, not just Catholic) is allowed to abuse its privileged position - and much of that abuse is well within living memory.

But at the same time, while I've got the right to stand in a crowded room and shout f@*# the Pope without repercussion, I've got the responsibility to know that that action will affect others - even hurt others - and that I should carefully choose when and if to exercise my right.

This goes double for those whose actions and statements will be widely circulated and used by others.

Tldr

He's got a right to do it but it was a bloody stupid thing to do.

I honestly doubt Ian Durrant has the mental capacity to have thought that deeply about why he would shout such a thing.

I would doubt if he could expand on why he dislikes the Pope beyond saying "fenian *******".

[WhileTheChief..]

He did it to feel popular and to be one of the people.

Typical herd / mob mentality really.

Someone touched on Traimspotting earlier, that scene in the club with them singing about no more Catholic’s probably sums them up.

[PatHead]

I can’t believe anyone on this thread seems to think it is okay to say things about anyone for their sex, race,colour or religion.

In 21st century Scotland that is totally unacceptable.

[Brizo]

I think this is another example of people misunderstanding freedom of speech and expression. Neither of those things mean you can just say what you like without consequence or challenge.

Had Durrant said something along the lines of:

'I reject the idea of Papal infallibility. I find the position of Primate of Rome to suggest a conduit between man and God and I reject that. I also find the Catholic theological belief in the consecration and transubstantiation of the Eucharist to be flawed.'

Then his position would have been a reasoned argument that could have been debated. Instead he said:

'**** the Pope'

I can't help feel that's just an expressiom of his own ignorance and if there are repercussions it's him to blame and no one else.

:agree:

This isn't someone delivering a cogent or considered critical assessment of Catholicism. Its Ian Durrant indulging in lowest common denominator behaviour to appeal to a The Rangers support at a The Rangers do where some form of FTP flavoured content is expected. As others have said its Trainspotting 2 "No more Catholics" , but in real life.

For anyone to suggest that Durrantys motivation for his FTP might be based on anything deeper than that would undoubtedly be giving him to much credit.

[judas]

Far worse things happen.

I also think the Popes a twat.

[The 90+2]

Far worse things happen.

I also think the Popes a twat.

What’s he personally done?

[angus hibby]

I can’t believe anyone on this thread seems to think it is okay to say things about anyone for their sex, race,colour or religion.

In 21st century Scotland that is totally unacceptable.

Spot on. And shameful that all of the authorities in the country do absolutely nothing about the sectarian singing that goes on every week.

[cabbageandribs1875]

**** Durrant
**** all the bigoted sectarian filthbags that laughed and clapped at the goats ignorance
**** all the bigoted sectarian filth that follow follow that vile institution




and **** barry ******* ferguson as well

[BILLYHIBS]

Far worse things happen.

I also think the Popes a twat.

You would though Judas! 😂

[CMurdoch]

:agree:

This isn't someone delivering a cogent or considered critical assessment of Catholicism. Its Ian Durrant indulging in lowest common denominator behaviour to appeal to a The Rangers support at a The Rangers do where some form of FTP flavoured content is expected. As others have said its Trainspotting 2 "No more Catholics" , but in real life.

For anyone to suggest that Durrantys motivation for his FTP might be based on anything deeper than that would undoubtedly be giving him to much credit.

That's it in a nutshell.
Durrant is an uneducated hard of thinking fool. Riordan was the same singing his refugee song. Donald Findlay .....oh wait he is an educated bigot.

Footballers can have rocks in their heads as long as they have cultured feet.
The agents of many should probably prevent them speaking in public.

[Smartie]

You would though Judas! 😂

You should hear what he's got to say about Jesus.

[Dashing Bob S]

I honestly doubt Ian Durrant has the mental capacity to have thought that deeply about why he would shout such a thing.

I would doubt if he could expand on why he dislikes the Pope beyond saying "fenian *******".

He’s so slow it took him five seasons to realize Neil Simpson had ended his career.

[Lancs Harp]

Whats a fenian Ian?...... er a celtic fan innit.

[neil7908]

It's certainly a move forward on the issue of celibacy amongst the clergy.



Now, that's logic I can relate to, "as long as they ***** in our shoes, we'll piss in their Bovril".

What I can't take is all the righteous indignation on the subject. I happen to know of one ex Celtic player who has been barred from several pubs in Airdrie for stupid sectarian remarks.

I also happen to know of a Scottish actor who has international status, who will openly come out with anti Orange statements when watching the Old Firm game with pals.

We've tried to legislate against this, and we got nowhere. At the end of the day, people should be free to say whatever they want, and the only court that would matter is the opinion of decent people.

On your last paragraph, what does this actually mean? What do you think should happen if I say something horrendously sexist or racist at a football game? Or at work? What if I threaten someone?

I honestly don't understand what you mean by "the opinion of decent people" and how this will stop racist abuse.

[Hibbyradge]

On your last paragraph, what does this actually mean? What do you think should happen if I say something horrendously sexist or racist at a football game? Or at work? What if I threaten someone?

I honestly don't understand what you mean by "the opinion of decent people" and how this will stop racist abuse.

And "decent people" is hugely subjective.

Everyone thinks that people with similar views to themselves are decent.

[barcahibs]

I can’t believe anyone on this thread seems to think it is okay to say things about anyone for their sex, race,colour or religion.

In 21st century Scotland that is totally unacceptable.

Some characteristics are rightly protected - gender, sexual orientation, race, colour to name a few. These are things which are innate to us, over which we have no control, which we're born with and which don't have any intrinsic effect on the person we're capable of being. No one should be abused or discriminated against for any of these.

Religion is different though. A person chooses to believe in one god/religion over the thousands of others which have (and do) exist - and they can change their choice of religion at any time. What someone chooses to believe is up to them as an individual, but no one else should be required to respect it - beyond the decencies which we should all extend to each other in a tolerant society.

There are all sorts things out there, religious and non-religious, which people choose to believe, why should any of them have special status? I'm allowed to agree and disagree with someone's politics, and lifestyle choices, why not their religion?

I believe that there are no gods. I believe that the majority of established religions do more harm than good. I believe the Pope (or anyone who thinks they can talk to gods) should command no more respect than Derek Acorah. But that doesn't give me the right to close down all the churches or make anyone else agree with me. Provided it does no harm to others, then my right to believe that should be respected, but not the belief itself.

I do agree with those saying none of this is likely to have crossed anyone at that dinner's mind right enough though, but then the whole rangers/celtc thing stopped being genuinely about religion a long time ago, its much more akin to tribalism - or even racism. I suspect that to the vast majority of the folk we're talking about "fenian", "papist", "hun" and "prod" are just shorthand for "those folk over there who are different and that I've been taught to hate" and the Pope (and the Queen) are just people in funny hats.

But just because they're idiots doesn't mean everyone else's rights should be eroded.

[CMurdoch]

Some characteristics are rightly protected - gender, sexual orientation, race, colour to name a few. These are things which are innate to us, over which we have no control, which we're born with and which don't have any intrinsic effect on the person we're capable of being. No one should be abused or discriminated against for any of these.

Religion is different though. A person chooses to believe in one god/religion over the thousands of others which have (and do) exist - and they can change their choice of religion at any time. What someone chooses to believe is up to them as an individual, but no one else should be required to respect it - beyond the decencies which we should all extend to each other in a tolerant society.

There are all sorts things out there, religious and non-religious, which people choose to believe, why should any of them have special status? I'm allowed to agree and disagree with someone's politics, and lifestyle choices, why not their religion?

I believe that there are no gods. I believe that the majority of established religions do more harm than good. I believe the Pope (or anyone who thinks they can talk to gods) should command no more respect than Derek Acorah. But that doesn't give me the right to close down all the churches or make anyone else agree with me. Provided it does no harm to others, then my right to believe that should be respected, but not the belief itself.

I do agree with those saying none of this is likely to have crossed anyone at that dinner's mind right enough though, but then the whole rangers/celtc thing stopped being genuinely about religion a long time ago, its much more akin to tribalism - or even racism. I suspect that to the vast majority of the folk we're talking about "fenian", "papist", "hun" and "prod" are just shorthand for "those folk over there who are different and that I've been taught to hate" and the Pope (and the Queen) are just people in funny hats.

But just because they're idiots doesn't mean everyone else's rights should be eroded.

Don't think Simon Ferry will want to interview you.
Far to switched on and missed the c word.

[basehibby]

On the legality of it, are we saying that phrase is illegal specifically because it’s directed towards the Pope?

I’m assuming it’s still fine to say F Donald Trump. Or Nigel Farage. Or Ann Budge for example?

But Holy Cow you can’t dare say it about The Pope??

That just can’t be right? Can it?

Linked below is Police Scotland's take on it. As would seem obvious to most people, Durrant's behaviour does indeed constitute hate speech as it is clearly motivated by malice towards a social group (catholics). Whether it's actually a crime as opposed to an incident probably depends on the circumstances. Since his bigotry was expressed behind closed doors it would not have been intended to target specific individuals but rather to curry favour among fellow bigots.

So probably worthy of a warning rather than criminal charges.

http://www.scotland.police.uk/keep-safe/advice-for-victims-of-crime/hate-crime/what-is-hate-crime/

[basehibby]

It's certainly a move forward on the issue of celibacy amongst the clergy.



Now, that's logic I can relate to, "as long as they ***** in our shoes, we'll piss in their Bovril".

What I can't take is all the righteous indignation on the subject. I happen to know of one ex Celtic player who has been barred from several pubs in Airdrie for stupid sectarian remarks.

I also happen to know of a Scottish actor who has international status, who will openly come out with anti Orange statements when watching the Old Firm game with pals.

We've tried to legislate against this, and we got nowhere. At the end of the day, people should be free to say whatever they want, and the only court that would matter is the opinion of decent people.

I've experienced sectarian bigotry in my life time - not talking about at the football here but from a school teacher - and believe that **** like Durrant should be exposed and shamed for the ignorant ****ers they are. If you think sectarianism is going away and is only a problem in the west have a look at some of the pathetic wee toss bags at Tynie. They seemed to have stamped out that rubbish years ago at the PBS but it's made a come back - because of the attitude that it's OK he's just having a wee joke - rather than coming down on the heads of such idiots like a ton of bricks.

[Scotty Leither]

The offending video has now been removed, you can't view it from the link provided in the newspaper's online version so maybe someone from the authorities are investigating, who knows?

[hibbymark]

:top marks
Some characteristics are rightly protected - gender, sexual orientation, race, colour to name a few. These are things which are innate to us, over which we have no control, which we're born with and which don't have any intrinsic effect on the person we're capable of being. No one should be abused or discriminated against for any of these.

Religion is different though. A person chooses to believe in one god/religion over the thousands of others which have (and do) exist - and they can change their choice of religion at any time. What someone chooses to believe is up to them as an individual, but no one else should be required to respect it - beyond the decencies which we should all extend to each other in a tolerant society.

There are all sorts things out there, religious and non-religious, which people choose to believe, why should any of them have special status? I'm allowed to agree and disagree with someone's politics, and lifestyle choices, why not their religion?

I believe that there are no gods. I believe that the majority of established religions do more harm than good. I believe the Pope (or anyone who thinks they can talk to gods) should command no more respect than Derek Acorah. But that doesn't give me the right to close down all the churches or make anyone else agree with me. Provided it does no harm to others, then my right to believe that should be respected, but not the belief itself.

I do agree with those saying none of this is likely to have crossed anyone at that dinner's mind right enough though, but then the whole rangers/celtc thing stopped being genuinely about religion a long time ago, its much more akin to tribalism - or even racism. I suspect that to the vast majority of the folk we're talking about "fenian", "papist", "hun" and "prod" are just shorthand for "those folk over there who are different and that I've been taught to hate" and the Pope (and the Queen) are just people in funny hats.

But just because they're idiots doesn't mean everyone else's rights should be eroded.

[malcolm]

But you still gave an explanation for your feelings which is more than Durrant managed. It also seems evident your opinion on religion is shaped by a coherent thought process rather than an 'I hate feenyuns' mentality.

And I'd feel the same if Durrants comments had been aimed at Anglicans, Lutherans, Muslims, Scientologists or whoever else. I just don't like bigots.

Who could should argue with that!

[matty_f]

It depends on your own personal filter, Bob. I'm by no means what you would call a "sensitive" type, but I stopped going to Sportsmans' dinners and bowling club smoker nights a good few years ago now precisely because of this type of "humour".

I'm led to believe it's still the norm at these nights from people that still go to them, and it's misogynist, hackneyed, and tiresome... and indicative of an intolerant culture that still thrives in Scotland, and shames us as a nation, sadly.
Well said. :agree:

[The Harp Awakes]

The offending video has now been removed, you can't view it from the link provided in the newspaper's online version so maybe someone from the authorities are investigating, who knows?

Yup, it will be swept under the carpet and forgotten about until the next time it happens. When Hibs go to Ibrox in December, 50,000 of the orcs will be singing 'Sad fen*** bas**** at Neil Lennon. And again everyone will ignore it. And you'll get the same folk posting on here about the right to free speech, blah blah.

Very depressing.

[BILLYHIBS]

I am a well balanced Roman Catholic. I have a chip on both shoulders :greengrin

[surreyhibbie]

Some characteristics are rightly protected - gender, sexual orientation, race, colour to name a few. These are things which are innate to us, over which we have no control, which we're born with and which don't have any intrinsic effect on the person we're capable of being. No one should be abused or discriminated against for any of these.

Religion is different though. A person chooses to believe in one god/religion over the thousands of others which have (and do) exist - and they can change their choice of religion at any time. What someone chooses to believe is up to them as an individual, but no one else should be required to respect it - beyond the decencies which we should all extend to each other in a tolerant society.

There are all sorts things out there, religious and non-religious, which people choose to believe, why should any of them have special status? I'm allowed to agree and disagree with someone's politics, and lifestyle choices, why not their religion?

I believe that there are no gods. I believe that the majority of established religions do more harm than good. I believe the Pope (or anyone who thinks they can talk to gods) should command no more respect than Derek Acorah. But that doesn't give me the right to close down all the churches or make anyone else agree with me. Provided it does no harm to others, then my right to believe that should be respected, but not the belief itself.

I do agree with those saying none of this is likely to have crossed anyone at that dinner's mind right enough though, but then the whole rangers/celtc thing stopped being genuinely about religion a long time ago, its much more akin to tribalism - or even racism. I suspect that to the vast majority of the folk we're talking about "fenian", "papist", "hun" and "prod" are just shorthand for "those folk over there who are different and that I've been taught to hate" and the Pope (and the Queen) are just people in funny hats.

But just because they're idiots doesn't mean everyone else's rights should be eroded.

i cant argue with any of that!

:top marks

[lapsedhibee]

Some characteristics are rightly protected - gender, sexual orientation, race, colour to name a few. These are things which are innate to us, over which we have no control, which we're born with and which don't have any intrinsic effect on the person we're capable of being. No one should be abused or discriminated against for any of these.

Religion is different though. A person chooses to believe in one god/religion over the thousands of others which have (and do) exist - and they can change their choice of religion at any time. What someone chooses to believe is up to them as an individual, but no one else should be required to respect it - beyond the decencies which we should all extend to each other in a tolerant society.

There are all sorts things out there, religious and non-religious, which people choose to believe, why should any of them have special status? I'm allowed to agree and disagree with someone's politics, and lifestyle choices, why not their religion?

I believe that there are no gods. I believe that the majority of established religions do more harm than good. I believe the Pope (or anyone who thinks they can talk to gods) should command no more respect than Derek Acorah. But that doesn't give me the right to close down all the churches or make anyone else agree with me. Provided it does no harm to others, then my right to believe that should be respected, but not the belief itself.

I do agree with those saying none of this is likely to have crossed anyone at that dinner's mind right enough though, but then the whole rangers/celtc thing stopped being genuinely about religion a long time ago, its much more akin to tribalism - or even racism. I suspect that to the vast majority of the folk we're talking about "fenian", "papist", "hun" and "prod" are just shorthand for "those folk over there who are different and that I've been taught to hate" and the Pope (and the Queen) are just people in funny hats.

But just because they're idiots doesn't mean everyone else's rights should be eroded.

Good points. Though I'm worried about drawing a hard line between innate and chosen things. People (unless they are rich) have no control over whether they are bald. Might it become wrong at some point in the future to call a ref a baldy heided ******* ? Or only wrong if he's not rich enough to afford a transplant? :hmmm:

[barcahibs]

I'm not sure if we're allowed youtube links on here but head on over there and check out Tim Minchin's song 'prejudice' - only a Ginger can call another Ginger Ginger :)

[WeeRussell]

A 4 page thread... so far... would suggest a few do. How does the saying go? 'If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem'

Too many people look the other way in Scotland

More simple in the case of your quoted post, JH. If you're not part of the thread... just post on it saying you don't care and hope to get some attention. Either that or post a totally outlandish opinion and hope people on the internet care enough to respond.

Totally weird, sad and tiring behaviour.

[Chic Murray]

I've experienced sectarian bigotry in my life time - not talking about at the football here but from a school teacher - and believe that **** like Durrant should be exposed and shamed for the ignorant ****ers they are. If you think sectarianism is going away and is only a problem in the west have a look at some of the pathetic wee toss bags at Tynie. They seemed to have stamped out that rubbish years ago at the PBS but it's made a come back - because of the attitude that it's OK he's just having a wee joke - rather than coming down on the heads of such idiots like a ton of bricks.

And be prepared for somebody to come down on you like a ton of bricks when you say something that offends someone else? Yeah that's a great road to go down.

What a mess.

[cabbageandribs1875]

the bigot said "i didn't mean to offend anyone" :rolleyes: he certainly didn't offend anyone at the meeting of the orcs, unfortunately for him someone recorded it and now the whole world knows that he's a bigoted sectarian piece of s***e :agree:

[Kojock]

Wonder what would have happened if he shouted f*** Allah or f*** Mohammed.

[basehibby]

And be prepared for somebody to come down on you like a ton of bricks when you say something that offends someone else? Yeah that's a great road to go down.

What a mess.

Nothing will ever change if everyone has your attitude CM - for my money they need to change so being all lacadaisical about Scottish sectarian bigotry will just ensure it never goes away - or worse still makes a come back.

[Since90+2]

Wonder what would have happened if he shouted f*** Allah or f*** Mohammed.

Would certainly have been a very different reaction.

[Chic Murray]

Nothing will ever change if everyone has your attitude CM - for my money they need to change so being all lacadaisical about Scottish sectarian bigotry will just ensure it never goes away - or worse still makes a come back.

How do we change them? I can't see any way, and there are implications for free speech.

At the end of the day, the Protestant faith is a rejection of Catholicism after all.

[nonshinyfinish]

How do we change them? I can't see any way, and there are implications for free speech.

At the end of the day, the Protestant faith is a rejection of Catholicism after all.

Don't you think there's a difference between a rejection of Catholicism – that is, a theological argument against it – and an inherent hatred of anyone who is or who is perceived to be Catholic?

(For me, the theological argument amounts to what kind of interior decor the pretend sky fairy likes, but here we are.)

[Waxy]

All this Scotland’s shame stuff is ridiculous.

Nobody outside of Scotland gives a damn. Pretty much no one in Scotland gives a damn either other than rival football fans.

It doesn’t shame Scotland at all. At most Durrant should maybe be ashamed but I doubt he will be.

Saying F the Pope, is that really a hate crime?

How’s that different to saying F Jim Traynor for example?!!

Soon we’ll be wanting folk prosecuted for what they think.
Can we change it to Glasgows shame?

[murray26]

Wonder what would have happened if he shouted f*** Allah or f*** Mohammed.

It’s ok to offend some religions but not others.. strange but true.. vile club with vile fans surely no debate about that.

[judas]

You would though Judas! 😂

😀

[The Harp Awakes]

How do we change them? I can't see any way, and there are implications for free speech.

At the end of the day, the Protestant faith is a rejection of Catholicism after all.

An interpretation of what you have just said is, as in Nazi Germany, we can't change the way anyone feels about Jews, so we just let it go? Free speech after all?

As a human being do you not see the danger in that argument?

Forget about which race of people this is about; atheists, agnostics, Protestants or Catholics.

Live and let live whoever you are.

Durrant is a ****bag and has previous. Don't defend him as if he is Matin Luther King.

[Chic Murray]

An interpretation of what you have just said is, as in Nazi Germany, we can't change the way anyone feels about Jews, so we just let it go? Free speech after all?

As a human being do you not see the danger in that argument?

Forget about which race of people this is about; atheists, agnostics, Protestants or Catholics.

Live and let live whoever you are.

Durrant is a ****bag and has previous. Don't defend him as if he is Matin Luther King.

I am genuinely asking how we change it.

This thread is big on indignation and low on practical solutions.

[Chic Murray]

Don't you think there's a difference between a rejection of Catholicism – that is, a theological argument against it – and an inherent hatred of anyone who is or who is perceived to be Catholic?

(For me, the theological argument amounts to what kind of interior decor the pretend sky fairy likes, but here we are.)

I do, but how how do you define hatred? Because that's what a lawyer would play on.

Do you think we should have control over what people believe, just because it hurts someone else?

[PatHead]

I am genuinely asking how we change it.

This thread is big on indignation and low on practical solutions.

Start with the authorities taking it seriously.

[overdrive]

the bigot said "i didn't mean to offend anyone" :rolleyes: he certainly didn't offend anyone at the meeting of the orcs, unfortunately for him someone recorded it and now the whole world knows that he's a bigoted sectarian piece of s***e :agree:

I think I read he was at the same table at Barry Ferguson. I wonder what Ferguson thought of it all? AFAIK he is married to a Celtic supporting Roman Catholic.

Amazingly, the Sevconians on social media are raging about this. “This” being fellow Sevconians having the stupidity to film it.

[Bishop Hibee]

I am genuinely asking how we change it.

This thread is big on indignation and low on practical solutions.

It was less acceptable when Rangers had David Murray as owner and sectarian singing was pretty much eradicated from Ibrox. The current regime cultivate a 'no-one likes us, we don't care' mentality. I don't think Trump and the rise and normalisation of the likes of Farage, Yaxley-Lennon and Steve Bannon has helped. When what would have been outrageous passes as normal discourse then the bigots will feel empowered to spout their bile.

It isn't going to go away anytime soon sadly but within stadiums the SFA and SPFL should do more to punish clubs whose fans cant racist. homophobic or sectarian abuse. Strict liability should be brought in in my opinion.

[neil7908]

I am genuinely asking how we change it.

This thread is big on indignation and low on practical solutions.

I don't really understand what you mean. We have practical solutions - they are called laws.

They set out certain types of crime, based on hate speech, discrimination etc. Outwith this, its our job to challenge people who say racist, homophobic or misogynistic things rather than let them slide.

Question for you - what would you have done if you were on the Ryanair flight with that guy racially abusing the elderly woman? Should he be left to crack on as we shouldn't impinge on his free speech?

[Chic Murray]

I don't really understand what you mean. We have practical solutions - they are called laws.

They set out certain types of crime, based on hate speech, discrimination etc. Outwith this, its our job to challenge people who say racist, homophobic or misogynistic things rather than let them slide.

Question for you - what would you have done if you were on the Ryanair flight with that guy racially abusing the elderly woman? Should he be left to crack on as we shouldn't impinge on his free speech?

If laws are the solution, then why is there still problem.

I would have punched his snout.

Maybe if the Pope was sitting next to Durrant on a Ryanair flight, you might have a point. Otherwise we aren't comparing apple with apple.

People should be free to express opinions about concepts like religion, but not to make someone feel uncomfortable or frightened.

[weecounty hibby]

If laws are the solution, then why is there still problem.

I would have punched his snout.

Maybe if the Pope was sitting next to Durrant on a Ryanair flight, you might have a point. Otherwise we aren't comparing apple with apple.

People should be free to express opinions about concepts like religion, but not to make someone feel uncomfortable or frightened.
He wasn't expressing an opinion though. I know you like to have a good argument on here but I'm sorry with this one there is no argument. What he said and in the manner it was said was hate speech, religious bigotry call it whatever. He knew and we all do what he meant by it and he also knew his audience.

[blackpoolhibs]

If laws are the solution, then why is there still problem.

I would have punched his snout.

Maybe if the Pope was sitting next to Durrant on a Ryanair flight, you might have a point. Otherwise we aren't comparing apple with apple.

People should be free to express opinions about concepts like religion, but not to make someone feel uncomfortable or frightened.

By shouting out **** the pope?

Its ignorant bigotry whichever way you try and paint it Chic, and is only done to play into the hands of their bigoted support.

If things are ever to change, it has to be outlawed and shouted down at every junction. Stop games when they are up to their knees, dock points if it continues, and then any more of it and they are kicked out the league.

If they know the authorities will do sod all, nothing will ever change.

[oldbutdim]

It was less acceptable when Rangers had David Murray as owner and sectarian singing was pretty much eradicated from Ibrox.


:confused:

I'm totally bemused by that.
Certainly not my experience.

[The 90+2]

:confused:

I'm totally bemused by that.
Certainly not my experience.

Martin Bain tried and failed to get rid of some of the songs that extra lyrics got added in to.

[SirDavidsNapper]

Without even looking at Rangers Media i know the vast majority of comments about Durrants outburst will be along the lines of "staunch", "loyal bear", "one of our own" etc. Most of it is sheer ignorance and people like Durrant who aren't very bright only help to encourage it. So glad we crushed them on 21/05/16. So, so happy it was against that lot.


I've just looked on there to see if i was right and most are just slating the guy that filmed it. Says it all really. Sad.

[The 90+2]

Without even looking at Rangers Media i know the vast majority of comments about Durrants outburst will be along the lines of "staunch", "loyal bear", "one of our own" etc. Most of it is sheer ignorance and people like Durrant who aren't very bright only help to encourage it. So glad we crushed them on 21/05/16. So, so happy it was against that lot.

I've just looked on there to see if i was right and most are just slating the guy that filmed it. Says it all really. Sad.

There’s two I play football with. They don’t even think it’s sectarian and blame the media.

[Carheenlea]

:confused:

I'm totally bemused by that.
Certainly not my experience.

There was definitely a big difference over time under Murray with sectarian chanting at Ibrox. Away from home would see more sectarian songs than at Ibrox, probably down to a more hard core element following the team on the road, but for a while it looked like the message was slowly starting to get across. As has been pointed out, the new regime is one that’s more entrenched and the songs have returned to Ibrox in louder volume than ever before.

[BILLYHIBS]

It was less acceptable when Rangers had David Murray as owner and sectarian singing was pretty much eradicated from Ibrox. The current regime cultivate a 'no-one likes us, we don't care' mentality. I don't think Trump and the rise and normalisation of the likes of Farage, Yaxley-Lennon and Steve Bannon has helped. When what would have been outrageous passes as normal discourse then the bigots will feel empowered to spout their bile.

It isn't going to go away anytime soon sadly but within stadiums the SFA and SPFL should do more to punish clubs whose fans cant racist. homophobic or sectarian abuse. Strict liability should be brought in in my opinion.

:faf:

Eradicated by David Murray?

:faf:

Oh! ma aching sides!

[Bostonhibby]

:faf:

Eradicated by David Murray?

:faf:

Oh! ma aching sides!TBF Murray did manage to eradicate the entire institution that was the now defunct Glasgow rangers.

Sent from my SM-J320FN using Tapatalk

[BILLYHIBS]

TBF Murray did manage to eradicate the entire institution that was the now defunct Glasgow rangers.

Sent from my SM-J320FN using Tapatalk

:thumbsup:

[hhibs]

I bet his PIN number is 1690

Reference Trainspotting 2

[nonshinyfinish]

There was definitely a big difference over time under Murray with sectarian chanting at Ibrox. Away from home would see more sectarian songs than at Ibrox, probably down to a more hard core element following the team on the road, but for a while it looked like the message was slowly starting to get across. As has been pointed out, the new regime is one that’s more entrenched and the songs have returned to Ibrox in louder volume than ever before.

I may be mixing things up here, but I thought the decline in 'fenian blood' etc followed them getting a couple of fines from UEFA? It makes sense that the club hierarchy saying "please don't sing this this, it's costing us money/potentially points" is more effective than just "please don't sing this".

And if my memory is accurate, then it points to the obvious course of action that the Scottish football authorities will never take…

[ardecos]

As long as we have bigots within our game continuing to peddle sectarian obscenities then we are still some way off yet from eradicating this blight from our country. It will be laughed off and we continue on as normal.

Were the Neanderthals bigots? After all, there's a bit of Neanderthal in all of us.

[JeMeSouviens]

I may be mixing things up here, but I thought the decline in 'fenian blood' etc followed them getting a couple of fines from UEFA? It makes sense that the club hierarchy saying "please don't sing this this, it's costing us money/potentially points" is more effective than just "please don't sing this".

And if my memory is accurate, then it points to the obvious course of action that the Scottish football authorities will never take…

:agree:

Spot on. UEFA's strict liability laws kept the Billy Boys and FTP at bay for a few years. As the Huns have realised, the SPFL/SFA will do SFA about it, so it's back with renewed vigour and endorsed by Sevco with orange strips and so on.

[Carheenlea]

I may be mixing things up here, but I thought the decline in 'fenian blood' etc followed them getting a couple of fines from UEFA? It makes sense that the club hierarchy saying "please don't sing this this, it's costing us money/potentially points" is more effective than just "please don't sing this".

And if my memory is accurate, then it points to the obvious course of action that the Scottish football authorities will never take…

Aye, a lot in truth in that too be fair.

[CropleyWasGod]

Were the Neanderthals bigots? After all, there's a bit of Neanderthal in all of us.

Yup... they were. You should have heard them on a Saturday afternoon singing about us "human-****ging *******s"

[Chic Murray]

He wasn't expressing an opinion though. I know you like to have a good argument on here but I'm sorry with this one there is no argument. What he said and in the manner it was said was hate speech, religious bigotry call it whatever. He knew and we all do what he meant by it and he also knew his audience.

The problem with laws is that you have to be very specific on how you define hate, and religious bigotry. You are drifting into the realms of thought crime.


By shouting out **** the pope?

Its ignorant bigotry whichever way you try and paint it Chic, and is only done to play into the hands of their bigoted support.

If things are ever to change, it has to be outlawed and shouted down at every junction. Stop games when they are up to their knees, dock points if it continues, and then any more of it and they are kicked out the league.

If they know the authorities will do sod all, nothing will ever change.

Should we also shut down the Orange Halls? Should we have spies in every pub to check that people aren't breaking any laws? Should we be scared to express a religious opinion, on say contraception, or gay marriage? Will we spend our lives looking over our shoulders?

You go down a dangerous road when you start locking up people for being idiots.

But, as football fans, we have a much stronger, more visible and reportable tool. Don't go to games when the opposition will be singing sectarian songs. Five hundred huns in Easter Road, by themselves, will make a much stronger point than putting a guy, of low intelligence, in the dock because he wanted to get a laugh out of his mates, as he can't impress them on the pitch anymore.

It's horrible stuff, a Peurto Rican barman here in Florida, said to me that Scottish football is all about Catholics and Protestants. Almost certainly fed to him by an OF fan.

I wish both would just leave our league.

[CropleyWasGod]

The problem with laws is that you have to be very specific on how you define hate, and religious bigotry. You are drifting into the realms of thought crime.



.

That's where case law comes into its own. Any laws, whether poorly-defined or (as you are suggesting, I think) open to different interpretation, will be clarified as cases come to Court. The justice system is then given its opportunity to establish precedents for future cases and, hence, police action.

[JimBHibees]

By shouting out **** the pope?

Its ignorant bigotry whichever way you try and paint it Chic, and is only done to play into the hands of their bigoted support.

If things are ever to change, it has to be outlawed and shouted down at every junction. Stop games when they are up to their knees, dock points if it continues, and then any more of it and they are kicked out the league.

If they know the authorities will do sod all, nothing will ever change.

Nail on head.

[JimBHibees]

I may be mixing things up here, but I thought the decline in 'fenian blood' etc followed them getting a couple of fines from UEFA? It makes sense that the club hierarchy saying "please don't sing this this, it's costing us money/potentially points" is more effective than just "please don't sing this".

And if my memory is accurate, then it points to the obvious course of action that the Scottish football authorities will never take…

Thats exactly why the club started doing something about it unfortunately UEFA leave it to local football authorities to deal with hence why we are back to where we are now.

[Chic Murray]

That's where case law comes into its own. Any laws, whether poorly-defined or (as you are suggesting, I think) open to different interpretation, will be clarified as cases come to Court. The justice system is then given its opportunity to establish precedents for future cases and, hence, police action.

Is Scots law not a codified system though, and relies on precedent less than other legal systems?

It might suggest why there have been so few prosecutions, and why one sherriff described the law as "mince".

The first defence any lawyer would use, IMO, is that the things legislated against are subjective, and there is gross inconsistency in society, whereby one group is free to make attacks on another (say in politics, or religion) but others are not, say football fans.

We have a law, it has not worked. Is it because the law is bad, or too many people don't care, and see tribalism for what it is. Inadequates searching for a purpose in life.

[Chic Murray]

Nail on head.

Thanks for reading my reply. :greengrin

[JimBHibees]

Thanks for reading my reply. :greengrin

:greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

Is Scots law not a codified system though, and relies on precedent less than other legal systems?

It might suggest why there have been so few prosecutions, and why one sherriff described the law as "mince".

The first defence any lawyer would use, IMO, is that the things legislated against are subjective, and there is gross inconsistency in society, whereby one group is free to make attacks on another (say in politics, or religion) but others are not, say football fans.

We have a law, it has not worked. Is it because the law is bad, or too many people don't care, and see tribalism for what it is. Inadequates searching for a purpose in life.

The law we have is, indeed, mince.... it's being repealed, is it not? That's a challenge to our legal brains to have it replaced with something better.

However, as a potentially better measure, there is an MSP (name has gone) who is attempting to have a law to force football clubs to adopt strict liability. Properly managed, and perhaps that means by an external body, that has the potential to attack at least one of the more obvious examples of the nonsense.

[Chic Murray]

Nail on head.


The law we have is, indeed, mince.... it's being repealed, is it not? That's a challenge to our legal brains to have it replaced with something better.

However, as a potentially better measure, there is an MSP (name has gone) who is attempting to have a law to force football clubs to adopt strict liability. Properly managed, and perhaps that means by an external body, that has the potential to attack at least one of the more obvious examples of the nonsense.

I like the sound of that.

How would it apply to Durrantgate though?

[CropleyWasGod]

I like the sound of that.

How would it apply to Durrantgate though?

Stick him in a room with Neil Simpson? :wink:

Seriously, I am sure we already have laws (other than the mince one) that cover it. The Scottish equivalent of twitter-abuse, or something akin to breach of the peace? As I understand it, breach of the peace is broadly where someone's actions cause someone else fear or alarm. All it would need in this situation would be for one (Catholic?) waiter to feel threatened, and there's a potential case right there.

That probably won't happen, but I often feel that designing laws to apply to specific situations is not the best way to go; particularly when we already have laws that can cover those situations (eg using phones in cars).

[Chic Murray]

Stick him in a room with Neil Simpson? :wink:

Seriously, I am sure we already have laws (other than the mince one) that cover it. The Scottish equivalent of twitter-abuse, or something akin to breach of the peace? As I understand it, breach of the peace is broadly where someone's actions cause someone else fear or alarm. All it would need in this situation would be for one (Catholic?) waiter to feel threatened, and there's a potential case right there.

That probably won't happen, but I often feel that designing laws to apply to specific situations is not the best way to go; particularly when we already have laws that can cover those situations (eg using phones in cars).

I think this is starting to get like the gay cake in Belfast, when all it takes is one person to object.

"M'lud, I was working at a Rangers function, and much as I know they have old fashioned views on religion, I didn't know they thought that way about the Pope."

[Famous Fiver]

Are Strathclyde's finest involved yet?

Not seen any mention of it anywhere.

[Chic Murray]

Are Strathclyde's finest involved yet?

Not seen any mention of it anywhere.

Probably snowed under sifting through the avalanche of similar footage of non famous bigots doing the same thing. We are going to need a bigger jail.

[Bostonhibby]

Are Strathclyde's finest involved yet?

Not seen any mention of it anywhere.The ones that weren't at the function are still tied up full time looking at pictures of exuberant hibbies on the pitch when plod Glasgow had to abort their invite to some party or other at ibrox.

Sent from my SM-J320FN using Tapatalk

[CropleyWasGod]

I think this is starting to get like the gay cake in Belfast, when all it takes is one person to object.

"M'lud, I was working at a Rangers function, and much as I know they have old fashioned views on religion, I didn't know they thought that way about the Pope."

If, like the gay cake, it helps to clarify the law, I'd say it's a good thing.

[The 90+2]

Are Strathclyde's finest involved yet?

Not seen any mention of it anywhere.

Half of them where probably at the gig.

[Keith_M]

How do we change them? I can't see any way, and there are implications for free speech.
...


This is the UK, not the USA. There is no such thing as Free Speech. Being deliberately offensive to someone just because of their religion is a hate crime.

If that bothers you, feel free to protest against it and get the law changed.



...
At the end of the day, the Protestant faith is a rejection of Catholicism after all.


Yes it is, but does it automatically mean you have to be deliberately offensive just to be considered a Protestant? I suppose if you're still living in the Middle Ages, but maybe it's about time people like that could move into the 21st Century.

[PatHead]

Probably snowed under sifting through the avalanche of similar footage of non famous bigots doing the same thing. We are going to need a bigger jail.

I can’t believe you are defending him. To me that makes you as much a bigot as he is.

[Chic Murray]

I can’t believe you are defending him. To me that makes you as much a bigot as he is.

Then I'd be immoral not to defend him.

[PatHead]

Then I'd be immoral not to defend him.

Eh! Anyone who says that doesn’t have morals.

Can I just be clear, do you find nothing wrong or offensive in what he says?

[Chic Murray]

If, like the gay cake, it helps to clarify the law, I'd say it's a good thing.

I'd lay money that we don't want a law that is a clipe's charter.

[Chic Murray]

Eh! Anyone who says that doesn’t have morals.

We won't get anywhere on this. Let's stop before the insults get out of hand, eh?

[PatHead]

We won't get anywhere on this. Let's stop before the insults get out of hand, eh?

Can you answer the second point before you leave it?

[PatHead]

Can you answer the second point before you leave it?

I would also add I haven’t insulted you at any stage.

[Chic Murray]

This is the UK, not the USA. There is no such thing as Free Speech. Being deliberately offensive to someone just because of their religion is a hate crime.

If that bothers you, feel free to protest against it and get the law changed.





Yes it is, but does it automatically mean you have to be deliberately offensive just to be considered a Protestant? I suppose if you're still living in the Middle Ages, but maybe it's about time people like that could move into the 21st Century.

Nothing like open minded respectful discussion without resorting to personal attack.

Who are you anyway?

[PatHead]

Can you answer the second point before you leave it?

Chic. Take it you have settled down to watch the The Rangers game rather than responding?

[CropleyWasGod]

I'd lay money that we don't want a law that is a clipe's charter.Many laws work on the basis of people making complaints.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[jabis]

Nothing like open minded respectful discussion without resorting to personal attack.

Who are you anyway?

Wasn't pathead that said that :confused:

[Chic Murray]

Can you answer the second point before you leave it?

I find it totally offensive.


Chic. Take it you have settled down to watch the The Rangers game rather than responding?

I didn't know they were playing. Cut the nonsense that I'm a hun, or a bigot, because I am questioning the implications of Durrant being prodecuted.

[Chic Murray]

Many laws work on the basis of people making complaints.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

They do indeed. Although it appears many don't work at all.


Wasn't pathead that said that :confused:

No, it was the other guy.

[jabis]

I find it totally offensive.

So you're a bigot..........had to go back a bit on the thread to see what you meant.

[Chic Murray]

So you're a bigot..........had to go back a bit on the thread to see what you meant.

Interesting, if totally lacking in logic.

Who are you anyway?

[barcahibs]

I find it totally offensive.

As do I ... But (like chic I think) I don't think anyone should have a right not to be offended.

If we're going to imprison everyone who offends someone then we're going to need much bigger jails and we're going to live in a very dangerous society

[CropleyWasGod]

As do I ... But (like chic I think) I don't think anyone should have a right not to be offended.

If we're going to imprison everyone who offends someone then we're going to need much bigger jails and we're going to live in a very dangerous societyI don't think anyone has suggested that we lock Durrant up. There are plenty of other ways of dealing with offensive behaviour.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[Chic Murray]

I would also add I haven’t insulted you at any stage.

Oh, right. Sorry, my bad. Saying I'm as bad as Durrant isn't high on my list of personal compliments.

Never heard of disagreeing with what someone says, whilst defending their right to say it?

[Chic Murray]

As do I ... But (like chic I think) I don't think anyone should have a right not to be offended.

If we're going to imprison everyone who offends someone then we're going to need much bigger jails and we're going to live in a very dangerous society

We are into Salem country now. We can only discuss punishment, and cannot even question whether any wrong has been done

Personally, I'm surprised the Pope, or even one of his employees in Scotland hasn't been onto the polis yet.

Good job footbalk supporters are so appalled that they will wring their hands in anguish, whilst paying good money to go and listen to the offensive sectarian bile.

If we cared, step one would be putting pressure on Hibs.

[Juniper Greens]

We are into Salem country now. We can only discuss punishment, and cannot even question whether any wrong has been done

Personally, I'm surprised the Pope, or even one of his employees in Scotland hasn't been onto the polis yet.

Good job footbalk supporters are so appalled that they will wring their hands in anguish, whilst paying good money to go and listen to the offensive sectarian bile.

If we cared, step one would be putting pressure on Hibs.

I care. I think it’s a bigger issue than football though. Just catching up on this thread...some really daft statements

[barcahibs]

I don't think anyone has suggested that we lock Durrant up. There are plenty of other ways of dealing with offensive behaviour.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

The punishment is irrelevant, the fact that we're ultimately here talking about making spoken dissent against (or even just disrespect to) authority a punishable offence is scary.

Lots of things offend me. Some things people say and believe hurt me to my core. It doesn't mean I get to ban them. Until my inevitable bloody ascent to power of course.

Offending someone is unpleasant - we should all try not to offend each other. But it has to be legal.

Also be aware that if we're banning being offensive - then everyone gets to decide what they're offended by. Sevco fans will finally succeed in getting me prosecuted for consistently calling them huns for a start.

No one should have the right not to be offended.

[GreenOnions]

Context always needs to be taken into account with these things does it not?

Do we not have to consider differently say, Durrant standing on a street corner with a megaphone shouting FTP when compared with him saying it in (what he thought was) private at a function of invited-only and probably like-minded guests?

How many times "removed" do we have to be from an incident before being offended by someone's behaviour is no longer legitimate?

Durrant's behaviour is infantile and pathetic but there's no evidence I can see that he knew his words would be broadcast to anyone who might be offended.

If we're not careful we may soon get into a discussion about whether or not having particular opinions is a crime.

[Juniper Greens]

The punishment is irrelevant, the fact that we're ultimately here talking about making spoken dissent against (or even just disrespect to) authority a punishable offence is scary.

Lots of things offend me. Some things people say and believe hurt me to my core. It doesn't mean I get to ban them. Until my inevitable bloody ascent to power of course.

Offending someone is unpleasant - we should all try not to offend each other. But it has to be legal.

Also be aware that if we're banning being offensive - then everyone gets to decide what they're offended by. Sevco fans will finally succeed in getting me prosecuted for consistently calling them huns for a start.

No one should have the right not to be offended.

Sorry, but it’s not that simple. In the not too distant past Durrant’s behaviour has led to murders and other crimes only 100 miles from here. I’m not saying someone should be jailed for that. But brought in front of a court, fined, community service and rehab seem about right to me.
This tolerance of intolerance needs to stop

[Scotty Leither]

There was definitely a big difference over time under Murray with sectarian chanting at Ibrox. Away from home would see more sectarian songs than at Ibrox, probably down to a more hard core element following the team on the road, but for a while it looked like the message was slowly starting to get across. As has been pointed out, the new regime is one that’s more entrenched and the songs have returned to Ibrox in louder volume than ever before.

Not my recollection, Carheenlea...Murray was only ever taken to task on this once in earnest by a brave female reporter (her name escapes me) who refused to accept his deflection stchick and pressed him on sectarianism in a manner that the succulent lamb brigade would never have even countenanced.

For as long as sectarianism is a USP for both arse cheeks of the OF, and a weak governing body wrings its hands over the issue, this poison which blights Scotland will never subside.

Durrant and his gallery of cheerleaders are simply a depressing symptom.

[PatHead]

Oh, right. Sorry, my bad. Saying I'm as bad as Durrant isn't high on my list of personal compliments.

Never heard of disagreeing with what someone says, whilst defending their right to say it?
Would doubt that is the case, if someone said your wife/daughter went like a bunny would you not be offended? I agree people have the right to express their opinion within reason. Durrant overstepped the lines of decency though.

Equally, if I was a racists or anti Zionist I don't think you would find calling someone a ****** or Yid is acceptable. Though it is only free speech in your eyes?

If I said Fuch the Head Rabbi, leader of the Church of Scotland, or local Imman, would that be acceptable? I think not.

I was brought up a catholic and while I do not attend church every week, I respect the views of those who do. You state that it is the choice of people to follow a religion. That is not always the case, many people who were brought up in a faith and choose to leave it. I would suspect that most of them do not choose to insult those that remain and respect their beliefs.

I will ask the same question again, do you find what he said acceptable, and if not why continue to defend it? You are just digging a hole for yourself.

[Scotty Leither]

Context always needs to be taken into account with these things does it not?

Do we not have to consider differently say, Durrant standing on a street corner with a megaphone shouting FTP when compared with him saying it in (what he thought was) private at a function of invited-only and probably like-minded guests?

How many times "removed" do we have to be from an incident before being offended by someone's behaviour is no longer legitimate?

Durrant's behaviour is infantile and pathetic but there's no evidence I can see that he knew his words would be broadcast to anyone who might be offended.

If we're not careful we may soon get into a discussion about whether or not having particular opinions is a crime.

He's a public figure though Green Onions...and whether he likes it or not his "opinion" is subject to greater scrutiny than others.

That allied to the notion (not knowing the guy personally) that he wasn't first in the queue when the brains were getting handed out, doesn't excuse a 50+ grown man making such an ill-advised comment.

[CropleyWasGod]

He's a public figure though Green Onions...and whether he likes it or not his "opinion" is subject to greater scrutiny than others.

That allied to the notion (not knowing the guy personally) that he wasn't first in the queue when the brains were getting handed out, doesn't excuse a 50+ grown man making such an ill-advised comment.And being a public figure endows him with a responsibility, whether he likes it or not. He is a role model, and as such any controversial behaviour will be validated in the eyes of those who look up to him.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[weecounty hibby]

The punishment is irrelevant, the fact that we're ultimately here talking about making spoken dissent against (or even just disrespect to) authority a punishable offence is scary.
FTP has absolutely nothing to do with dissent against authority. It is an anti catholic diatribe. You cannot compare it to someone saying **** Theresa May, or **** the police or **** the system. Calling a hun a hun is also not comparable. How many hearts/aberdeen/Dundee fans etc use that term for rangers? It has nothing like the same connotations as the words that rangers fans use as derogatory terms for catholics. I am from a CoS family who have all called them huns as long as i can remember, nothing at all to do with religion at all

[jabis]

Interesting, if totally lacking in logic.

Who are you anyway?

Not interesting and lacking in intelligence(if we're playing your game)

As for the second part,I'm Jabis,my friends call me Jabis,I've had wage packets with Jabis,I've been taxed under the name Jabis,my avatars a picture of ME.........

What are you anyway ?

[Aim Here]

FTP has absolutely nothing to do with dissent against authority. It is an anti catholic diatribe. You cannot compare it to someone saying **** Theresa May, or **** the police or **** the system. Calling a hun a hun is also not comparable. How many hearts/aberdeen/Dundee fans etc use that term for rangers? It has nothing like the same connotations as the words that rangers fans use as derogatory terms for catholics. I am from a CoS family who have all called them huns as long as i can remember, nothing at all to do with religion at all

To be fair, '**** the Pope' CAN be some form of dissent, in the right context. If Sinead o' Connor was talking about child abuse or women's rights, or if Richard Dawkins was talking about the existence of God, or if some Cardinal took objection to some particular piece of internal Vatican policy, then '**** the Pope' would take on a meaning closer to '**** the Queen' or '**** Theresa May' or whatever.

That's not the case with Ian Durrant's usage of course - which was riling up a bunch of anticatholic bigots because he felt it was the easiest way to get a bunch of knuckledraggers on his side. If there's any ambiguity here it's whether he genuinely hates catholics himself, or just says that stuff to fit in, and he doesn't come out of this well either way.

It's all about context.

[Sir David Gray]

To be fair, '**** the Pope' CAN be some form of dissent, in the right context. If Sinead o' Connor was talking about child abuse or women's rights, or if Richard Dawkins was talking about the existence of God, or if some Cardinal took objection to some particular piece of internal Vatican policy, then '**** the Pope' would take on a meaning closer to '**** the Queen' or '**** Theresa May' or whatever.

That's not the case with Ian Durrant's usage of course - which was riling up a bunch of anticatholic bigots because he felt it was the easiest way to get a bunch of knuckledraggers on his side. If there's any ambiguity here it's whether he genuinely hates catholics himself, or just says that stuff to fit in, and he doesn't come out of this well either way.

It's all about context.

I agree with you but that would never stand up in court.

[barcahibs]

FTP has absolutely nothing to do with dissent against authority. It is an anti catholic diatribe. You cannot compare it to someone saying **** Theresa May, or **** the police or **** the system. Calling a hun a hun is also not comparable. How many hearts/aberdeen/Dundee fans etc use that term for rangers? It has nothing like the same connotations as the words that rangers fans use as derogatory terms for catholics. I am from a CoS family who have all called them huns as long as i can remember, nothing at all to do with religion at all

Why can't you compare it? What's the difference between the head of a religion and the head of a country/political party?

I agree with you that the term hun shouldn't be regarded as offensive. But then the main reason I call huns huns is because it appears to offend them. Same reason I refer to sevco around my hun sympathizing friends whenever possible.

But under this wonderful new system you or I dont get to decide whats offensive - everyone else does.

[Skol]

The irony is that Durrant (and most Rangers fans) are probably not actually religious bigots. It is just ingrained in the west of scotland culture and upbringing to hate the other side and it comes out as religious bigotry. I would wager that less than 5% of your regular Ibrox(and Parkhead) attenders have also attended church on any occasion other than a wedding, funeral or when taken along by school.

[Chic Murray]

Not interesting and lacking in intelligence(if we're playing your game)

As for the second part,I'm Jabis,my friends call me Jabis,I've had wage packets with Jabis,I've been taxed under the name Jabis,my avatars a picture of ME.........

What are you anyway ?

Immune to egotists like you Jim.

[jabis]

Immune to egotists like you Jim.

Oooooo,no answer,apart from using my work name........bullet in the post next ?

[Chic Murray]

Would doubt that is the case, if someone said your wife/daughter went like a bunny would you not be offended? I agree people have the right to express their opinion within reason. Durrant overstepped the lines of decency though.

Equally, if I was a racists or anti Zionist I don't think you would find calling someone a ****** or Yid is acceptable. Though it is only free speech in your eyes?

If I said Fuch the Head Rabbi, leader of the Church of Scotland, or local Imman, would that be acceptable? I think not.

I was brought up a catholic and while I do not attend church every week, I respect the views of those who do. You state that it is the choice of people to follow a religion. That is not always the case, many people who were brought up in a faith and choose to leave it. I would suspect that most of them do not choose to insult those that remain and respect their beliefs.

I will ask the same question again, do you find what he said acceptable, and if not why continue to defend it? You are just digging a hole for yourself.

You are missing my point. I don't know why you are so fixated, I wouldn't say it, if that's any help. Get a grip.

[Scotty Leither]

The irony is that Durrant (and most Rangers fans) are probably not actually religious bigots. It is just ingrained in the west of scotland culture and upbringing to hate the other side and it comes out as religious bigotry. I would wager that less than 5% of your regular Ibrox(and Parkhead) attenders have also attended church on any occasion other than a wedding, funeral or when taken along by school.

It's ingrained though, isn't it? I used to mix with our enlightened friends in the West through work once upon a time. A senior (female) manager who was an ardent Rangers fan was baffled that I had a real "Proddy -sounding name" (her words) yet I was a Hibs supporter.

I informed her that my ancestry was Scots/Irish, I was indeed a (lapsed) Protestant, and that I supported Hibs for family reasons, but mainly because they were my local team and I identified with the massive sense of community following the Hibs.

I also advised her that one thing I did have in common with her was a mutual loathing of Celtic, along with a deep-seated distaste for her own mob of course.

...and if i really wanted to confuse her, I'd always correct her if she referred to me as coming from Edinburgh,, by advising her that I actually was and am a proud Leither.

We never really established a healthy working relationship, her and I, as I recall...

[Eyrie]

It's ingrained though, isn't it? I used to mix with our enlightened friends in the West through work once upon a time. A senior (female) manager who was an ardent Rangers fan was baffled that I had a real "Proddy -sounding name" (her words) yet I was a Hibs supporter.

I informed her that my ancestry was Scots/Irish, I was indeed a (lapsed) Protestant, and that I supported Hibs for family reasons, but mainly because they were my local team and I identified with the massive sense of community following the Hibs.

I also advised her that one thing I did have in common with her was a mutual loathing of Celtic, along with a deep-seated distaste for her own mob of course.

...and if i really wanted to confuse her, I'd always correct her if she referred to me as coming from Edinburgh,, by advising her that I actually was and am a proud Leither.

We never really established a healthy working relationship, her and I, as I recall...

It's definitely ingrained.

My sister married a guy from Airdrie and the immediate reaction of his family to hearing I'm a Hibs fan was to ask her if I'm Catholic. In fact I was raised Church of Scotland and have been a devout atheist for as long as I can remember.

[basehibby]

It’s ok to offend some religions but not others.. strange but true.. vile club with vile fans surely no debate about that.

That's nonsense - sectarianism in Scotland usually centers around Catholicism/Church of Scotland but the law applies to all forms of sectarian bigotry. The example quoted which you replied to "Wonder what would have happened if he shouted f*** Allah or f*** Mohammed." is a particular load of gibberish considering a load of (admittedly gash) cartoonists were shot to death in their offices in Paris for expressing exactly that sentiment a few years back.

[Famous Fiver]

When I was five and went to school, I went home one lunchtime and asked my mother what a Catholic was. When she asked why I told her that we had been told by the older kids at the school to throw stones at Catholics. Result - she took me to and from school from then on to make sure I didn't get involved.

Durrant's outburst is just another example of a deeply ingrained attitude going back decades, if not centuries.

Will it ever be eradicated?

[GreenOnions]

He's a public figure though Green Onions...and whether he likes it or not his "opinion" is subject to greater scrutiny than others.

That allied to the notion (not knowing the guy personally) that he wasn't first in the queue when the brains were getting handed out, doesn't excuse a 50+ grown man making such an ill-advised comment.

I completely agree with you SL. Like everyone else on this thread I despair at this kind of stuff.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that what Durrant did was not pathetic and wrong. The question is what should be done about it and how do we deal with this kind of thing in general.

I'm just far from convinced that we should be considering words, actions or thoughts as a criminal act when the individual in question has reasonable grounds to believe that offence is unlikely to be felt by anyone. In this context - I think Durrant could be justified in believing exactly that as I explained in my earlier post.

I think he's naive if he has failed to consider the potential of technology and social media being used to broadcast his words to a wider audience but should he be prosecuted for it?

I don't think that not intending offence is necessarily a reasonable defence - and just because one person doesn't think what they say is offensive doesn't make it inoffensive. However - in a context where your audience is private and consists entirely of like-minded people - we have to consider that it may be reasonable/justifiable for Durrant to believe he would not cause offence IMHO.

[monarch]

Durrant was recently sacked from his position as coach at Dumbarton along with manager Steve Aitken. It will be interesting to see if he manages to get another job in football.

If he does then what would that say about the club that employs him. Would they be labelled as bigoted or could they say that everyone makes a mistake and deserves another chance.

One certainty is that he never gave his future employment situation a thought during his attempt to curry favour with his fellow like minded dinner companions.

[Caversham Green]

I think the chat about offence is missing the point somewhat. The real issue is the mindset that sees Protestants hating Catholics simply because they're Catholics and vice versa. That mindset has been an element in the killing of thousands of UK citizens in my lifetime and probably hundreds of thousands throughout history. That's why laws have been developed to counter it and why they need to be enforced - nothing to do with people being offended.

While he's a complete nonentity outside the Rangers/Sevco bubble Ian Durrant has still done his little bit to perpetuate that mindset.

[lapsedhibee]

Lots of good points on this thread, including some by Chic Murray - why is he binned? :confused:

[Iain G]

Lots of good points on this thread, including some by Chic Murray - why is he binned? :confused:

Something about having his gay cake and eating it I think? 😁