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Barney McGrew
08-10-2018, 06:25 AM
£200k pre tax profit for last year.

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hibs/hibs-accounts-easter-road-club-back-in-the-black-1-4811243

Wembley67
08-10-2018, 06:38 AM
Now that is good reading...to infinity and beyond hibees 😀😀😀

SChibs
08-10-2018, 06:38 AM
Don't believe it. They yams have been telling me hibs are spending out with their means for a few seasons now. Why should we believe Hibs over those enlightened beings?

SirDavidsNapper
08-10-2018, 06:45 AM
Tick tock

neil7908
08-10-2018, 06:51 AM
What happens to the profit? Does it go into our reserves?

The Spaceman
08-10-2018, 06:57 AM
Brilliant reading - figures don't reflect the £3,000,000 we got for John McGinn or the purchases of Kamberi, Horgan and Mallan...assume there is therefore still a healthy slice to come next year :top marksonwards and upwards Hibs! Great time to be a Hibs fan, enjoy it.

Ozyhibby
08-10-2018, 07:00 AM
Brilliant reading - figures don't reflect the £3,000,000 we got for John McGinn or the purchases of Kamberi, Horgan and Mallan...assume there is therefore still a healthy slice to come next year :top marksonwards and upwards Hibs! Great time to be a Hibs fan, enjoy it.

Next years turnover will be bigger due to european participation. Hopefully our profit will be about the same though.


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heid the baw
08-10-2018, 07:18 AM
What happens to the profit? Does it go into our reserves?

As long as we break even, that is all the club should aim for. Profit should be spent to enhance the infrastructure. The wage bill %age is the most important stat and that is where clubs can run into bother. It needs to adjust in line with income. Gambling by overspending on wages to enhance income rarely comes off.
Hibs board seem to be all about future generations. That is how it should be.

RobR27
08-10-2018, 07:21 AM
The difference in length - and ease of comprehension - between our reports and the caveat-laden ones that come from the pink side are quite striking.

CropleyWasGod
08-10-2018, 07:34 AM
What happens to the profit? Does it go into our reserves?It pays whatever tax is due, and our loan from STF

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Dancehibs
08-10-2018, 07:38 AM
It pays whatever tax is due, and our loan from STF

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How do we pay £500k to farmer out of £200k profits? According to a board director we pay farmer monthly.

offshorehibby
08-10-2018, 07:38 AM
Any word on the AGM

Juniper Greens
08-10-2018, 07:39 AM
How do we pay £500k to farmer out of £200k profits? According to a board director we pay farmer monthly.

Can’t be much left to pay now? Does anyone know when these payments cease?

CropleyWasGod
08-10-2018, 07:44 AM
How do we pay £500k to farmer out of £200k profits? According to a board director we pay farmer monthly.We do pay him monthly.

The profit quoted is struck before tax, loan repayments and HSL income. Without any HSL money, we need to make a profit of 500k in order to pay STF

The poster asked what happens to the profit. I'm trying to be as simple as I can with the answer. [emoji3]

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Chic Murray
08-10-2018, 07:46 AM
We do pay him monthly.

The profit quoted is struck before tax, loan repayments and HSL income. Without any HSL money, we need to make a profit of 500k in order to pay STF

The poster asked what happens to the profit. I'm trying to be as simple as I can with the answer. [emoji3]

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Thanks, I was starting to despair at some of the bar room accountants on here.

BSEJVT
08-10-2018, 07:50 AM
We do pay him monthly.

The profit quoted is struck before tax, loan repayments and HSL income. Without any HSL money, we need to make a profit of 500k in order to pay STF

The poster asked what happens to the profit. I'm trying to be as simple as I can with the answer. [emoji3]

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Made me think for a minute too though :-)

It might be easier for some to understand that the profit is based solely on Income - Costs incurred in delivering that income

Such things as STF repayment, HSL income and Tax on profits don't have any effect on profitability but are reflected in cash position of business

TrinityHibs
08-10-2018, 08:09 AM
We do pay him monthly.

The profit quoted is struck before tax, loan repayments and HSL income. Without any HSL money, we need to make a profit of 500k in order to pay STF

The poster asked what happens to the profit. I'm trying to be as simple as I can with the answer. [emoji3]

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Does that mean that even with the HSL money we are actually £300K+ worse off than last year?

cocteautwin
08-10-2018, 08:17 AM
How do we pay £500k to farmer out of £200k profits? According to a board director we pay farmer monthly.

Cash flow and Profits are 2 different things. Farmer's payments are repayments of a loan, not an accounting expense. As long as our cash inflows are higher than our outflows by £500k the loan repayments are covered. We don't actually have to make an accounting profit to be able to repay the loan.

BSEJVT
08-10-2018, 08:22 AM
Does that mean that even with the HSL money we are actually £300K+ worse off than last year?

Not at all

You need to divorce the HSL / STF money from our trading performance

We have made a profit of £200k

If we were a cash business that hadn't traded before and didn't trade again we would have £200k in our hand

The HSL monies and loan repayments don't impact profitability they do change the balance sheet

The HSL monies will increase the share capital and will add to that £200k cash as folk are handing the club money in exchange for a share of the ownership not anything else that costs the club to deliver

Lets suppose the HSL monies were £300k we would then have £500k cash

We then pay that £500k cash to STF towards repaying the loan

If nothing else changed the value of the business would increase by £500k

Not In The Know
08-10-2018, 08:34 AM
And don't forget the money that we are paying STF is a significant saving on what we would be giving the bank if we hadn't restructured.

GreenArmyyy!
08-10-2018, 08:44 AM
£200,000 spare for a famous five statue anyone.... 👀

Caversham Green
08-10-2018, 10:18 AM
It's also worth bearing in mind that there are certain non-cash 'expenses' such as depreciation and amortisation. Probably the best rule of thumb approach is to look at the cash balance and net asset value to assess which direction the club is headed - both are up by a decent amount according to the article.

In anticipation of comments about the cash balance, it's high because most of the season ticket money was already in, but it needs to be used for wages throughout the season. Add in the McGinn and Murray cash (assuming we got it all paid straight away) and we must have been sitting on a fair whack when the transfer window slammed shut, even allowing for transfers in. Maybe we'll see some of that being spent when the January window is flung open.

CropleyWasGod
08-10-2018, 10:34 AM
Brilliant reading - figures don't reflect the £3,000,000 we got for John McGinn or the purchases of Kamberi, Horgan and Mallan...assume there is therefore still a healthy slice to come next year :top marksonwards and upwards Hibs! Great time to be a Hibs fan, enjoy it.

That's the EEN's figure, not a direct quote.

neil7908
08-10-2018, 10:36 AM
It pays whatever tax is due, and our loan from STF

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Cheers

CropleyWasGod
08-10-2018, 10:39 AM
Can’t be much left to pay now? Does anyone know when these payments cease?

The original agreement was until 2025.

SirDavidsNapper
08-10-2018, 10:47 AM
That's the EEN's figure, not a direct quote.

Said the same in club statement

CropleyWasGod
08-10-2018, 10:50 AM
Said the same in club statement

Pretty sure it doesn't. It talks about "appropriate value".

http://www.hibernianfc.co.uk/news/9287

Although the Financial Statements reflect transactions up to 30 June 2018 he went on to mention Hibernian’s summer 2018 transfer activity – players in and players out.

“Everyone who has played for the Club and has since left for pastures new deserves the gratitude of supporters. No one more so than John McGinn who left to join Aston Villa FC on the English transfer deadline day. John has made an impressive start at his new club. The transaction happened after the financial year end and benefits the 2018-19 accounts so there is no impact in the Financial Statements for the year ended 30 June 2018.

“The departure of the player was not unexpected and the executive team is to be congratulated - not only for securing appropriate value for the player but also for the work done to achieve the summer signings which have seen a number of full international players join the Club.

Itsnoteasy
08-10-2018, 11:00 AM
Brilliant reading - figures don't reflect the £3,000,000 we got for John McGinn or the purchases of Kamberi, Horgan and Mallan...assume there is therefore still a healthy slice to come next year :top marksonwards and upwards Hibs! Great time to be a Hibs fan, enjoy it.

Where did you hear that we got 3M for Mcginn?

CropleyWasGod
08-10-2018, 11:02 AM
Where did you hear that we got 3M for Mcginn?

It's in the EEN report. It's their figure.

SChibs
08-10-2018, 11:02 AM
£200,000 spare for a famous five statue anyone.... 👀

Nope it's in the 'fill in the corners' piggy bank.

WhileTheChief..
08-10-2018, 11:19 AM
I wouldn’t expect next years accounts to show much more profit, if any.

Turnover will hopefully be up again but the wages we’re paying for this squad will also be much higher.

CMurdoch
08-10-2018, 11:24 AM
The original agreement was until 2025.

So in effect we owe STF a little over £3 million (6 years of £500k)

CropleyWasGod
08-10-2018, 11:26 AM
So in effect we owe STF a little over £3 million (6 years of £500k)

I will wait until I see the accounts before I say. :greengrin

(but, it's 7 years......)

Ged
08-10-2018, 11:38 AM
So in effect we owe STF a little over £3 million (6 years of £500k)

We should have just given him John McGinn to clear it off.

Hibernian32
08-10-2018, 11:57 AM
The original agreement was until 2025.
Let's be honest STF will be up in the heavens with our other angels in 2025 couldn't see it being that long a loan

CropleyWasGod
08-10-2018, 11:58 AM
Let's be honest STF will be up in the heavens with our other angels in 2025 couldn't see it being that long a loan

That was the original deal. Let's not forget that the loan is from a company, not STF personally. The debt will remain with that company.

One Day Soon
08-10-2018, 12:05 PM
I will wait until I see the accounts before I say. :greengrin

(but, it's 7 years......)

Or to put it another way, in 7 years time everything will be bought and paid for - and we will be £500,000 a year better off.

That's another three good first team player salaries covered should we want to add them to the squad...

I would think that with a horizon of just 7 years left on that loan the Club will already be thinking about what new commitments it may wish to plan for - possibly even commence - before the ending of the 7 year term.

CropleyWasGod
08-10-2018, 12:07 PM
Or to put it another way, in 7 years time everything will be bought and paid for - and we will be £500,000 a year better off.

That's another three good first team player salaries covered should we want to add them to the squad...

I would think that with a horizon of just 7 years left on that loan the Club will already be thinking about what new commitments it may wish to plan for - possibly even commence - before the ending of the 7 year term.

We could do all that now if he'd just do the right thing and write it off.






:cb

One Day Soon
08-10-2018, 12:11 PM
We could do all that now if he'd just do the right thing and write it off.






:cb


Oi! :grr:

CropleyWasGod
08-10-2018, 12:42 PM
I've had a quick look at the accounts.

There has been an additional £60k paid on the loan, over and above the usual. The remainder is still repayable at 41,667 per month, " plus any accelerated annual payments which are triggered by the results of the company".

That, to me, suggests that the additional payment is contractual, and not an arbitrary decision made by the Board.

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danhibees1875
08-10-2018, 12:48 PM
I've had a quick look at the accounts.

There has been an additional £60k paid on the loan, over and above the usual. The remainder is still repayable at 41,667 per month, " plus any accelerated annual payments which are triggered by the results of the company".

That, to me, suggests that the additional payment is contractual, and not an arbitrary decision made by the Board.

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That makes sense. :aok:

Is there an accompanying letter that says what date the AGM is on?

CropleyWasGod
08-10-2018, 01:01 PM
That makes sense. :aok:

Is there an accompanying letter that says what date the AGM is on?24th October

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Hibernian32
08-10-2018, 01:07 PM
That was the original deal. Let's not forget that the loan is from a company, not STF personally. The debt will remain with that company.
I was sort of thinking that, but it's got me thinking who is STF leaving his assets too? Who will be inheriting us? Could we get the dick head grandson who wants the cash pronto? Could the circumstances change say he did pass away and the new owner doesn't want to play ball

Ozyhibby
08-10-2018, 01:10 PM
I was sort of thinking that, but it's got me thinking who is STF leaving his assets too? Who will be inheriting us? Could we get the dick head grandson who wants the cash pronto? Could the circumstances change say he did pass away and the new owner doesn't want to play ball

As good a reason as any to get HSL to 26% shareholding. Who knows what the future holds but we can protect the club if want to.


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Sergio sledge
08-10-2018, 01:17 PM
I've had a quick look at the accounts.

There has been an additional £60k paid on the loan, over and above the usual. The remainder is still repayable at 41,667 per month, " plus any accelerated annual payments which are triggered by the results of the company".

That, to me, suggests that the additional payment is contractual, and not an arbitrary decision made by the Board.

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So the jambos were right all along and STF does trouser a percentage of our profits?! :grr:

:devil:

In all seriousness it makes absolute sense, even though it is an interest free loan, to pay it off quicker if we are making a profit as we'll be able to start spending the annual £500k payments on the playing squad sooner.

danhibees1875
08-10-2018, 01:24 PM
24th October

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Thanks. :aok:

Speedway
08-10-2018, 02:06 PM
We could do all that now if he'd just do the right thing and write it off.






:cb

Cash reserves of £4.2m...

Did there end up being any truth in the rumour years ago (around the time of the collapse of the TV deals) that if the board was to establish cash reserves of £5m, STF would match it as his final gift to the club?

If true, forgiveness of debt could be factored into that.

SirDavidsNapper
08-10-2018, 02:09 PM
Once the STF loan (fantastic deal for the club) is paid off we will be in a very, very good place. Exciting times.

Peevemor
08-10-2018, 02:11 PM
So the jambos were right all along and STF does trouser a percentage of our profits?! :grr:

:devil:

In all seriousness it makes absolute sense, even though it is an interest free loan, to pay it off quicker if we are making a profit as we'll be able to start spending the annual £500k payments on the playing squad sooner.

But if we don't use any surplus dosh on early debt repayment, we can spend it on the squad now. That's even sooner.

Sergio sledge
08-10-2018, 02:18 PM
But if we don't use any surplus dosh on early debt repayment, we can spend it on the squad now. That's even sooner.

Maybe they tried and a signing that they had anticipated completing in the last accounting year wasn't able to get over the line in time? Mallan possibly, or Horgan as both were on the radar for a while. I would guess that as Hibs' aim is to break even every year these over payments would be pretty minimal, but it does make sense to use a surplus at the year end to reduce debt. You can only make hay while the sun shines.

danhibees1875
08-10-2018, 02:58 PM
Maybe they tried and a signing that they had anticipated completing in the last accounting year wasn't able to get over the line in time? Mallan possibly, or Horgan as both were on the radar for a while. I would guess that as Hibs' aim is to break even every year these over payments would be pretty minimal, but it does make sense to use a surplus at the year end to reduce debt. You can only make hay while the sun shines.

I don't agree that it does.

It makes sense to tuck away any excess into a savings account or investment fund and continue paying the minimum towards debt repayment (in this instance when there is no interest).

However, it sounds like we've revised the wording in our creditors note to highlight the fact that excess payments were a contractual obligation - so I'd be inclined to assume that's the reason we've paid more than £500K.

CropleyWasGod
08-10-2018, 03:03 PM
I've had a look at the accounts now. Other than the edited highlights provided by Rod, I'd mention the following:-

1. HSL contributed £164k during that year. At the end of June, they had 15% of the shares; a further 22% was owned by fans.

2. LD was paid £157k. (for those conspiracy theorists looking in, see Note 1 :cb)

3. on the question of the STF loan, as previously mentioned, we paid £60k over the norm in that year. However, we also seem to be committed to paying an additional £155k in the current year (for those conspiracy theorists looking in..... etc etc.). Presumably, that is a clause in the loan agreement that hasn't been mentioned in the past, as it wasn't relevant.

4. we spent £534k in transfer fees, signing-on fees and agents' fees. There is no breakdown of that.

5. I can't get my head around the income from player sales etc. (Cav - help?) AFAIK, the only income we might have had was add-ons for Cummings.

lucky
08-10-2018, 03:07 PM
I noticed that pension contributions are up £58k but only 4 additional employees. That being said Hibs have 100 employees but only spend £100k a year on pensions. That seems a ridiculously low amount. I thought every employer had to provide a pension now? Could it be all the players have opted out and Hibs only offer the rest of the staff the bare minimum? Or I’ve totally misread it.

0762
08-10-2018, 03:09 PM
I noticed that pension contributions are up £58k but only 4 additional employees. That being said Hibs have 100 employees but only spend £100k a year on pensions. That seems a ridiculously low amount. I thought every employer had to provide a pension now? Could it be all the players have opted out and Hibs only offer the rest of the staff the bare minimum? Or I’ve totally misread it.

£45.1k of pension seems to have gone to one person!

lucky
08-10-2018, 03:11 PM
£45.1k of pension seems to have gone to one person!

How do you know that?

Also I was not **** stirring or wanted a witch-hunt!

0762
08-10-2018, 03:15 PM
How do you know that?

Also I was not **** stirring or wanted a witch-hunt!


Didn't say you were! It's in the Accounts - page 16.

lucky
08-10-2018, 03:18 PM
Didn't say you were! It's in the Accounts - page 16.

I know you didn’t but this is .net where even the simplest of questions gets turnaround by some.

So if an individual got £42.1k in their pension pot, why are the other 99 employees only getting £58k between them?

CropleyWasGod
08-10-2018, 03:18 PM
£45.1k of pension seems to have gone to one person!

That will be for LD, the highest-paid director. She has had in increase in her salary, possibly on the basis of a performance-related bonus. The additional pension contributions will be as a result of that.

CropleyWasGod
08-10-2018, 03:21 PM
I know you didn’t but this is .net where even the simplest of questions gets turnaround by some.

So if an individual got £42.1k in their pension pot, why are the other 99 employees only getting £58k between them?

Last year, non-LD pension contributions were £28k.

This year, they are £55k.

lucky
08-10-2018, 03:22 PM
That will be for LD, the highest-paid director. She has had in increase in her salary, possibly on the basis of a performance-related bonus. The additional pension contributions will be as a result of that.

I assumed it was her but can’t help think that Hibs are screwing over every other employee by offering the minimum in pension contributions whilst gold plating LDs.

CropleyWasGod
08-10-2018, 03:24 PM
I assumed it was her but can’t help think that Hibs are screwing over every other employee by offering the minimum in pension contributions whilst gold plating LDs.

Doubling them, you mean? :greengrin

wallpaperman
08-10-2018, 03:28 PM
Last year, non-LD pension contributions were £28k.

This year, they are £55k.

Auto enrolment rates increased from 6 April 2018, that may have something to do with it, and they increase again from 6 April 2019.

Assuming from those very low contribution figures that the players must make their own pension arrangements (if they wish, which is doubtful) and may 'opt out' of Hibs own pension scheme.

0762
08-10-2018, 03:30 PM
I know you didn’t but this is .net where even the simplest of questions gets turnaround by some.

So if an individual got £42.1k in their pension pot, why are the other 99 employees only getting £58k between them?


Agree. Sometimes the most innocent of questions some people just take offence at.

danhibees1875
08-10-2018, 03:33 PM
Auto enrolment rates increased from 6 April 2018, that may have something to do with it, and they increase again from 6 April 2019.

Assuming from those very low contribution figures that the players must make their own pension arrangements (if they wish, which is doubtful) and may 'opt out' of Hibs own pension scheme.

I think they must do, I guess in an environment when you can move around so frequently it's maybe easier, and that's just an industry standard.

Even allowing for that, the amount sounds low though.

Dancehibs
08-10-2018, 03:39 PM
As good a reason as any to get HSL to 26% shareholding. Who knows what the future holds but we can protect the club if want to.


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Individual shareholders have 22%. HSL 15%. So well past that safety net of 26%. When will HSL reach target of 20%?

Juniper Greens
08-10-2018, 03:43 PM
I think they must do, I guess in an environment when you can move around so frequently it's maybe easier, and that's just an industry standard.

Even allowing for that, the amount sounds low though.

I believe footballers have an industry wide Pension Scheme, so suspect that their pension contributions are elsewhere in the accounts. The hubs one will be for non playing staff

danhibees1875
08-10-2018, 03:53 PM
I believe footballers have an industry wide Pension Scheme, so suspect that their pension contributions are elsewhere in the accounts. The hubs one will be for non playing staff

That would make sense. :agree: (not sure about being elsewhere in the accounts though - it sounds like they'd just make their own arrangements separately with opt-out being industry standard and their pay reflecting a need to sort their own pension arrangement).

I still think that sounds low for non-playing staff though.

Dancehibs
08-10-2018, 04:16 PM
I've had a quick look at the accounts.

There has been an additional £60k paid on the loan, over and above the usual. The remainder is still repayable at 41,667 per month, " plus any accelerated annual payments which are triggered by the results of the company".

That, to me, suggests that the additional payment is contractual, and not an arbitrary decision made by the Board.

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Question. Looking at the accounts on page 20 . There is an amount of £655, 100. Is that the amount paid to holding company?

CropleyWasGod
08-10-2018, 04:18 PM
Question. Looking at the accounts on page 20 . There is an amount of £655, 100. Is that the amount paid to holding company?

See post #52.

It's the amount expected to be paid in the current season.

Dancehibs
08-10-2018, 04:19 PM
See post #52.

It's the amount expected to be paid in the current season.

Cheers

Juniper Greens
08-10-2018, 04:31 PM
That would make sense. :agree: (not sure about being elsewhere in the accounts though - it sounds like they'd just make their own arrangements separately with opt-out being industry standard and their pay reflecting a need to sort their own pension arrangement).

I still think that sounds low for non-playing staff though.

It’s the players union that runs the pension scheme. Don’t mean to hark on, but I don’t want people thinking Hibs are being tight in any way. It’s all quite complex, but it all works out and all the professional players and clubs are involved

Zondervan
08-10-2018, 04:38 PM
The minimum Hibs have to pay to a pension by way of employer contributions is 2% of salary.

So for every £100k of employee salary they need to pay £2k.

They could choose to pay above 2% buy without knowing what arrangement they have in place it is hard to work out or correlate with the figures posted.


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BSEJVT
08-10-2018, 04:50 PM
Individual shareholders have 22%. HSL 15%. So well past that safety net of 26%. When will HSL reach target of 20%?

HSL's target is 26%

They will reach it when enough people donate enough money to enable them to acquire the requisite shareholding.

There are some very significant nominee holdings in amongst that 22%

I don't think its any coincidence that there hasn't been an offer for sale to the general public for a considerable period.

The last thing we need is someone building up substantial holdings through various nominee companies as a trojan horse way of making a bid for control.

Whilst I am not particularly big on complete fan ownership, this particular Hibs supporter will rest a lot more content when HSL hold that 26%

Hibs has been my family's team for as long as I can trace back, I would like it to remain my family's team long after I am gone.

Mercer's attempt to take us over and shut us down will never leave me and for as long as I am on this earth I will do everything in my power to prevent my successors ever facing a similar circumstance.

As far as I am concerned the best way of achieving that is to have enough shares under the control of HSL

I would again encourage every Hibs supporter who can afford to do so to contribute whatever they can to make this happen.

GGTTH

Bostonhibby
08-10-2018, 04:56 PM
HSL's target is 26%

They will reach it when enough people donate enough money to enable them to acquire the requisite shareholding.

There are some very significant nominee holdings in amongst that 22%

I don't think its any coincidence that there hasn't been an offer for sale to the general public for a considerable period.

The last thing we need is someone building up substantial holdings through various nominee companies as a trojan horse way of making a bid for control.

Whilst I am not particularly big on complete fan ownership, this particular Hibs supporter will rest a lot more content when HSL hold that 26%

Hibs has been my family's team for as long as I can trace back, I would like it to remain my family's team long after I am gone.

Mercer's attempt to take us over and shut us down will never leave me and for as long as I am on this earth I will do everything in my power to prevent my successors ever facing a similar circumstance.

As far as I am concerned the best way of achieving that is to have enough shares under the control of HSL

I would again encourage every Hibs supporter who can afford to do so to contribute whatever they can to make this happen.

GGTTH

:top marks

This is where I am on the subject, have been from the beginning.

Pagan Hibernia
08-10-2018, 05:08 PM
HSL's target is 26%

They will reach it when enough people donate enough money to enable them to acquire the requisite shareholding.

There are some very significant nominee holdings in amongst that 22%

I don't think its any coincidence that there hasn't been an offer for sale to the general public for a considerable period.

The last thing we need is someone building up substantial holdings through various nominee companies as a trojan horse way of making a bid for control.

Whilst I am not particularly big on complete fan ownership, this particular Hibs supporter will rest a lot more content when HSL hold that 26%

Hibs has been my family's team for as long as I can trace back, I would like it to remain my family's team long after I am gone.

Mercer's attempt to take us over and shut us down will never leave me and for as long as I am on this earth I will do everything in my power to prevent my successors ever facing a similar circumstance.

As far as I am concerned the best way of achieving that is to have enough shares under the control of HSL

I would again encourage every Hibs supporter who can afford to do so to contribute whatever they can to make this happen.

GGTTH

superb post.

Caversham Green
08-10-2018, 05:17 PM
I've had a look at the accounts now. Other than the edited highlights provided by Rod, I'd mention the following:-

1. HSL contributed £164k during that year. At the end of June, they had 15% of the shares; a further 22% was owned by fans.

2. LD was paid £157k. (for those conspiracy theorists looking in, see Note 1 :cb)

3. on the question of the STF loan, as previously mentioned, we paid £60k over the norm in that year. However, we also seem to be committed to paying an additional £155k in the current year (for those conspiracy theorists looking in..... etc etc.). Presumably, that is a clause in the loan agreement that hasn't been mentioned in the past, as it wasn't relevant.

4. we spent £534k in transfer fees, signing-on fees and agents' fees. There is no breakdown of that.

5. I can't get my head around the income from player sales etc. (Cav - help?) AFAIK, the only income we might have had was add-ons for Cummings.

Nope. I dunno either, other than Cummings. Unless there was some development fees or add-ons for former youth players. Reading reportedly paid £1.5m for Marc McNulty but I don't know if that would be relevant.

GreenOnions
08-10-2018, 05:18 PM
That will be for LD, the highest-paid director. She has had in increase in her salary, possibly on the basis of a performance-related bonus. The additional pension contributions will be as a result of that.

Salary/Bonus sacrifice for employer pension contribution instead I'd guess

CropleyWasGod
08-10-2018, 05:22 PM
Nope. I dunno either, other than Cummings. Unless there was some development fees or add-ons for former youth players. Reading reportedly paid £1.5m for Marc McNulty but I don't know if that would be relevant.It was more the calculation of the loss i was scoobied on. It appears that we disposed of Intangible assets (ie players) with a NBV of £190k. Yet we made a loss of £230k on those assets. [emoji849]

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CropleyWasGod
08-10-2018, 05:25 PM
Salary/Bonus sacrifice for employer pension contribution instead I'd guessShe definitely had more salary than the previous year, by about 40k. And more pension contributions by about 30k, if that helps.

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Caversham Green
08-10-2018, 05:26 PM
It was more the calculation of the gain i was scoobied on. It appears that we disposed of Intangible assets (ie players) with a NBV of £190k. Yet we made a loss of £230k on those assets. [emoji849]

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Ah - I haven't actually seen the accounts yet. I'll see if I can work out what's happened once I've seen them.

jacomo
08-10-2018, 05:37 PM
HSL's target is 26%

They will reach it when enough people donate enough money to enable them to acquire the requisite shareholding.

There are some very significant nominee holdings in amongst that 22%

I don't think its any coincidence that there hasn't been an offer for sale to the general public for a considerable period.

The last thing we need is someone building up substantial holdings through various nominee companies as a trojan horse way of making a bid for control.

Whilst I am not particularly big on complete fan ownership, this particular Hibs supporter will rest a lot more content when HSL hold that 26%

Hibs has been my family's team for as long as I can trace back, I would like it to remain my family's team long after I am gone.

Mercer's attempt to take us over and shut us down will never leave me and for as long as I am on this earth I will do everything in my power to prevent my successors ever facing a similar circumstance.

As far as I am concerned the best way of achieving that is to have enough shares under the control of HSL

I would again encourage every Hibs supporter who can afford to do so to contribute whatever they can to make this happen.

GGTTH


Who are these minority shareholders? Anyone know or make an informed guess?

Hibs have stopped the public share sale so I guess they are, collectively, capped at 22%. A lot will be small individual holdings from fans.

Is it something to worry about? Do we have a potential vulture waiting in the wings? It would seem that if someone bought shares hoping to make a quick profit, they would need to be very patient.

Dancehibs
08-10-2018, 05:47 PM
HSL's target is 26%

They will reach it when enough people donate enough money to enable them to acquire the requisite shareholding.

There are some very significant nominee holdings in amongst that 22%

I don't think its any coincidence that there hasn't been an offer for sale to the general public for a considerable period.

The last thing we need is someone building up substantial holdings through various nominee companies as a trojan horse way of making a bid for control.

Whilst I am not particularly big on complete fan ownership, this particular Hibs supporter will rest a lot more content when HSL hold that 26%

Hibs has been my family's team for as long as I can trace back, I would like it to remain my family's team long after I am gone.

Mercer's attempt to take us over and shut us down will never leave me and for as long as I am on this earth I will do everything in my power to prevent my successors ever facing a similar circumstance.

As far as I am concerned the best way of achieving that is to have enough shares under the control of HSL

I would again encourage every Hibs supporter who can afford to do so to contribute whatever they can to make this happen.

GGTTH

Hibs careful vet who is behind the nominee names. They know the names.

I agree would be good for HSL to get to 26%. Looking at accounts holding company shareholding has dropped 2.8%. At current rate be a few years until HSL gets to 26%.

Amount of shares in hibs fans hands is excellent.

Bostonhibby
08-10-2018, 05:49 PM
Who are these minority shareholders? Anyone know or make an informed guess?

Hibs have stopped the public share sale so I guess they are, collectively, capped at 22%. A lot will be small individual holdings from fans.

Is it something to worry about? Do we have a potential vulture waiting in the wings? It would seem that if someone bought shares hoping to make a quick profit, they would need to be very patient.I know one nominee who bought that way just to keep the acquisition away from prying eyes who think he already spends too much on Hibs!

Nae chance he'd be launching a takeover or doing anything other than what keeps the club safe from the mercers of this world.

I do generally agree about huge nominee purchases potentially giving cause for concern but suspect that even now there's a far higher percentage in that 22% who aren't in the single takeover camp and many will be long standing small shareholders.

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BSEJVT
08-10-2018, 05:56 PM
Who are these minority shareholders? Anyone know or make an informed guess?

Hibs have stopped the public share sale so I guess they are, collectively, capped at 22%. A lot will be small individual holdings from fans.

Is it something to worry about? Do we have a potential vulture waiting in the wings? It would seem that if someone bought shares hoping to make a quick profit, they would need to be very patient.

Someone a lot brighter than me posted a list of Hibs shareholders a while back.

I was really quite shocked at the large number of significant nominee holdings

Cant find my shares certificates at the moment as we moved in the summer and there are still boxes unopened all over the place.

But iirc I owned under 2 separate purchases 50 and 100 shares

I would guess many others like me just want to hold some as a gesture and / or to be able to attend the AGM if we choose.

Again IIRC ( and I am less sure of this) some of these nominees owned 000's of shares or more

I am personally not convinced that the average supporter owns that significant a percentage of the shares.

Its entirely possible some or all of these nominee holdings are held by real Hibs supporters with the clubs best interests at heart looking to maintain their privacy but:

1) Folk die and pass on shares to folk without that interest / commitment (See Steven Thomson @ DUFC as an example)

2) I am frankly not prepared to sit back idly and hope in case they are not

As an added benefit of securing the clubs future, the cash goes straight into the football budget

The last 3 or 4 years have been amongst the best Hibs supporting days of my life both in respect of the football played and the connection between the club, players and fans.

The only other period to come close would be the Tornadoes era.

Long may it continue, contributing to HSL will help ensure it does.

At long last we have a manager or maybe more accurately a manager and structure in place to support him in identifying and recruiting players to improve us.

I want them to have as much money as possible to continue that work.

jacomo
08-10-2018, 05:58 PM
I know one nominee who bought that way just to keep the acquisition away from prying eyes who think he already spends too much on Hibs!

Nae chance he'd be launching a takeover or doing anything other than what keeps the club safe from the mercers of this world.

I do generally agree about huge nominee purchases potentially giving cause for concern but suspect that even now there's a far higher percentage in that 22% who aren't in the single takeover camp and many will be long standing small shareholders.

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This is good to know.

ancient hibee
08-10-2018, 05:59 PM
We do pay him monthly.

The profit quoted is struck before tax, loan repayments and HSL income. Without any HSL money, we need to make a profit of 500k in order to pay STF

The poster asked what happens to the profit. I'm trying to be as simple as I can with the answer. [emoji3]

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I'm confused-a common fault-we don't need any profit to repay STF-it comes from revenue as it did in previous years when we made a loss.

CropleyWasGod
08-10-2018, 06:11 PM
I'm confused-a common fault-we don't need any profit to repay STF-it comes from revenue as it did in previous years when we made a loss.We don't need to, but it helps.

If we were consistently making big losses, and our cash flow was therefore restricted, we'd struggle to make the payments.



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ancient hibee
08-10-2018, 06:13 PM
Cash is king.

Sammy7nil
08-10-2018, 06:25 PM
HSL's target is 26%

They will reach it when enough people donate enough money to enable them to acquire the requisite shareholding.

There are some very significant nominee holdings in amongst that 22%

I don't think its any coincidence that there hasn't been an offer for sale to the general public for a considerable period.

The last thing we need is someone building up substantial holdings through various nominee companies as a trojan horse way of making a bid for control.

Whilst I am not particularly big on complete fan ownership, this particular Hibs supporter will rest a lot more content when HSL hold that 26%

Hibs has been my family's team for as long as I can trace back, I would like it to remain my family's team long after I am gone.

Mercer's attempt to take us over and shut us down will never leave me and for as long as I am on this earth I will do everything in my power to prevent my successors ever facing a similar circumstance.

As far as I am concerned the best way of achieving that is to have enough shares under the control of HSL

I would again encourage every Hibs supporter who can afford to do so to contribute whatever they can to make this happen.

GGTTH

Rubbish post :wink::wink::wink:

crash
08-10-2018, 07:00 PM
Where in the Accounts is the income from the Hibernian Lotto. This is a dedicated ring-fenced cash reserve donated to the Managers Player Fund, surely this should be mentioned.

CropleyWasGod
08-10-2018, 07:07 PM
Where in the Accounts is the income from the Hibernian Lotto. This is a dedicated ring-fenced cash reserve donated to the Managers Player Fund, surely this should be mentioned.

It will be included in Turnover.

The fact that it's ring-fenced doesn't mean that it has to be disclosed separately.

KWJ
08-10-2018, 07:11 PM
On the Cummings from were we not rather hoping to see a decent chunk in here on sales as it wasnt much last year or it was all going to be in this one? Does it appear we sold him way under the £1M then and perhaps with a hefty sell on fee which may now come to fruition with his goals at the posh (not checked lately mind).

Edit - 6 goals in 10 but he's not scored since August. Head maybe not in game after all the gf and flat tearing

brianmc
08-10-2018, 07:15 PM
Who are these minority shareholders? Anyone know or make an informed guess?

Hibs have stopped the public share sale so I guess they are, collectively, capped at 22%. A lot will be small individual holdings from fans.

Is it something to worry about? Do we have a potential vulture waiting in the wings? It would seem that if someone bought shares hoping to make a quick profit, they would need to be very patient.

Me, to the tune of £250.... Nothing to worry about (unless the wife finds out!).

crash
08-10-2018, 07:32 PM
It will be included in Turnover.

The fact that it's ring-fenced doesn't mean that it has to be disclosed separately.

Thanks CWG, it would be a more interesting read if we could get a breakdown of Turnover to give us an idea of financial performance in particular areas.

CropleyWasGod
08-10-2018, 07:34 PM
Thanks CWG, it would be a more interesting read if we could get a breakdown of Turnover to give us an idea of financial performance in particular areas.

I agree. Whilst there is no requirement to do so, that kind of analysis would, at the very least, cut down on some of the arguments on here. :greengrin

hibby6270
08-10-2018, 07:50 PM
Who are these minority shareholders? Anyone know or make an informed guess?

Hibs have stopped the public share sale so I guess they are, collectively, capped at 22%. A lot will be small individual holdings from fans.

Is it something to worry about? Do we have a potential vulture waiting in the wings? It would seem that if someone bought shares hoping to make a quick profit, they would need to be very patient.

The list of shareholders is publicly available. Vast majority are individuals but yeah, it does show the nominee holdings as well as HSL total figure.

Hope this link works!! Just click on it and go down to the Confirmation Statement entry dated 22/01/2018 and open the PDF. Full list of shareholders? - et voila!!

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/SC005323/filing-history

MurrayfieldHibs
08-10-2018, 08:22 PM
I agree. Whilst there is no requirement to do so, that kind of analysis would, at the very least, cut down on some of the arguments on here. :greengrin

Are you trying to spoil the fun :greengrin

Leith Green
08-10-2018, 08:50 PM
So does the 500k we pay farmer back get included in the figures? Wouldnt it mean we are 300k down if its not??

CropleyWasGod
08-10-2018, 09:05 PM
So does the 500k we pay farmer back get included in the figures? Wouldnt it mean we are 300k down if its not??It isn't included.

Neither, though, is the HSL income.

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Leith Green
08-10-2018, 09:11 PM
It isn't included.

Neither, though, is the HSL income.

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Im probably being thick here but doesnt that mean we are paying back 500k to farmer and losing another 300k in doing so?

4 Front Teeth
08-10-2018, 09:54 PM
What happens to the profit? Does it go into our reserves?

LoL..... as an accountant... i appreciate that one! 🤣

banchoryhibs
08-10-2018, 11:01 PM
Im probably being thick here but doesnt that mean we are paying back 500k to farmer and losing another 300k in doing so?

Not really. Before the net profit figure in the accounts is arrived at there are lots of accounting adjustments for things like amortisation, this is not a "cash" loss.
So to see how we are managing you can check the cash flow statement. That is healthy so nothing to worry about.
We do have to repay the loan but this is covered by money received.
Accounts are complex so CWG and Caversham Green can live in luxury :-)