Tourist Tax

[danhibees1875]

It's been discussed as parts of other threads before, but there is to be a vote next week to decide if it should be introduced in Edinburgh at a rate of £2 a night.

What are peoples thoughts?

I'm all for it - a lot of (most?) other cities have it, so I don't see why not. Would put a reasonable amount of money into making the city a better place for visitors, and locals.
I also don't think it would effect demand. I think we'd still see the same number of tourists visiting regardless.

[Pretty Boy]

I've visited dozens of cities that have a tourist tax and it's never once been a consideration for me when deciding where I'm going.

£11M a year is not to be sniffed at. The only problem is it would be Edinburgh Council spending the money.....

[Saturday Boy]

I've visited dozens of cities that have a tourist tax and it's never once been a consideration for me when deciding where I'm going.

£11M a year is not to be sniffed at. The only problem is it would be Edinburgh Council spending the money.....

Fortunately they have no legal powers to levy tax. They’d probably spend the money turning the bypass into a cycle lane 😄

[beensaidbefore]

Think it's a great idea. Don't think it would put tourists off at all.

[Haymaker]

Excuse my ignorance but how does/would it work?

[stoneyburn hibs]

It's a no brainer for Edinburgh. I can't understand why businesses are against it as it's not going to deter tourists at all imo.

[danhibees1875]

Excuse my ignorance but how does/would it work?

In other countries, hotels just add £2 a night onto your stay.

This is then passed on to the council to spend on street cleaning,bin collections, etc.

I would assume it's the same here.

[GlesgaeHibby]

No brainer IMO.

[Onceinawhile]

In other countries, hotels just add £2 a night onto your stay.

This is then passed on to the council to spend on street cleaning,bin collections, etc.

I would assume it's the same here.

So £14 a night for a fortnight away? That's almost certain to be inconsequential to most people. I assume when there's a booking made, if the person booking has a scottish postcode or an EH postcode, they won't be charged?

[Pretty Boy]

So £14 a night for a fortnight away? That's almost certain to be inconsequential to most people. I assume when there's a booking made, if the person booking has a scottish postcode or an EH postcode, they won't be charged?

In a few places I've stayed there is an exemption for locals and those travelling on business.

[danhibees1875]

So £14 a night for a fortnight away? That's almost certain to be inconsequential to most people. I assume when there's a booking made, if the person booking has a scottish postcode or an EH postcode, they won't be charged?

Not per night. £28 total for a fortnight.

That's a good question... I believe other Scottish postcodes certainly would as it's an Edinburgh council initiative, I'm not sure about EH postcodes though.

[lapsedhibee]

Fortunately they have no legal powers to levy tax. They’d probably spend the money turning the bypass into a cycle lane 😄
Only if there's anything left over from paying for the Eighth Wonder to be completed.

[Hibbyradge]

I'm just back from Lisbon. I paid my hotel up front, but I was told that there were local taxes payable at the hotel.

It was €1 per night. Absolutely no problem at all. I'd support an Edinburgh tourist tax, even though I'd have to pay it.

[Billy Whizz]

I'm just back from Lisbon. I paid my hotel up front, but I was told that there were local taxes payable at the hotel.

It was €1 per night. Absolutely no problem at all. I'd support an Edinburgh tourist tax, even though I'd have to pay it.

In Italy it’s only paid in 5 Star Hotels. Are Edinburgh planning for it to be in every Hotel?

[CropleyWasGod]

Not per night. £28 total for a fortnight.

That's a good question... I believe other Scottish postcodes certainly would as it's an Edinburgh council initiative, I'm not sure about EH postcodes though.

That might be open to abuse.

Personally, as an EH resident, I'd have no problems paying such a small amount.

[danhibees1875]

That might be open to abuse.

Personally, as an EH resident, I'd have no problems paying such a small amount.

I'd agree it wouldn't be worth the hassle and may as well charge everyone. :agree:


Does anyone know who is actually voting? Councillors? I'm assuming it's not MSPs in hollyrood?

[Gatecrasher]

The Tax would be capped at 7 nights so the most you would pay is £14. Hardly a game changer if your going on holiday in Edinburgh. I think its a great idea, Edinburgh needs a nice tidy up and an extra £11 million per year would go a long way to making the city a nicer place to be.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It's a no brainer for Edinburgh. I can't understand why businesses are against it as it's not going to deter tourists at all imo.

Totally agree with this

[CropleyWasGod]

I'd agree it wouldn't be worth the hassle and may as well charge everyone. :agree:


Does anyone know who is actually voting? Councillors? I'm assuming it's not MSPs in hollyrood?

It's a council decision, but we're nowhere near that stage yet.

The proposals have only just been published, as a consultation. Views will be taken from all interested parties (including the hotel industry, who seem to be against it) before there is a vote.

[Curried]

I’ve always resented the fact that in many countries, as a “foreigner”, I’ve often had to cough-up much higher rates than a “local” to use public transport, stay in a hotel, or enter a public site.

I fully appreciate the widely-held belief that in some countries (particularly the very poor ones), that this revenue is used to support a wider economic dividend for the population. However, in my experience, such monies invariably end up in the hands of crooked government officials or businesses.

Scotland has experienced a massive tourism boom over recent years and hotels and tourist-based businesses are increasing their revenues year on year (see FMQ’s today). Maybe these businesses should be forking-out the tax.

[CropleyWasGod]

I’ve always resented the fact that in many countries, as a “foreigner”, I’ve often had to cough-up much higher rates than a “local” to use public transport, stay in a hotel, or enter a public site.

I fully appreciate the widely-held belief that in some countries (particularly the very poor ones), that this revenue is used to support a wider economic dividend for the population. However, in my experience, such monies invariably end up in the hands of crooked government officials or businesses.

Scotland has experienced a massive tourism boom over recent years and hotels and tourist-based businesses are increasing their revenues year on year (see FMQ’s today). Maybe these businesses should be forking-out the tax.

They already are paying increased direct and indirect taxes. I'm not sure why you would want them to pay even more.

This is about recognising the increased pressure on public services that the rise in tourist numbers bring. That's down to the individuals, most of whom will be unconcerned at the charge.

[danhibees1875]

It's a council decision, but we're nowhere near that stage yet.

The proposals have only just been published, as a consultation. Views will be taken from all interested parties (including the hotel industry, who seem to be against it) before there is a vote.

Thanks - not sure where I got it in my head that there was a vote next week. :confused:

[Curried]

They already are paying increased direct and indirect taxes. I'm not sure why you would want them to pay even more.

This is about recognising the increased pressure on public services that the rise in tourist numbers bring. That's down to the individuals, most of whom will be unconcerned at the charge.

Because, paradoxically, the hotels and AirB&B’s, are the businesses facilitating the increased strain on public services. No wonder they’re the ones opposed to the tax!

[CropleyWasGod]

Because, paradoxically, the hotels and AirB&B’s, are the businesses facilitating the increased strain on public services. No wonder they’re the ones opposed to the tax!

I'm unsure why those businesses are opposed to it. The consultation has only just begun, so perhaps that will come out in due course.

As an aside, would you extend the tax-paying to other businesses who profit from increased visitor-business? Restaurants, pubs, taxi drivers, theatres, buses, shops, half-and half scarf sellers :greengrin,.......and on and on.

[danhibees1875]

I’ve always resented the fact that in many countries, as a “foreigner”, I’ve often had to cough-up much higher rates than a “local” to use public transport, stay in a hotel, or enter a public site.

I fully appreciate the widely-held belief that in some countries (particularly the very poor ones), that this revenue is used to support a wider economic dividend for the population. However, in my experience, such monies invariably end up in the hands of crooked government officials or businesses.

Scotland has experienced a massive tourism boom over recent years and hotels and tourist-based businesses are increasing their revenues year on year (see FMQ’s today). Maybe these businesses should be forking-out the tax.

I can't think of many examples where locals get things cheaper than tourists where I've been, maybe I've just never realised others are getting a discount... Edinburgh offer local discounts to some of the things at the Christmas market (and possibly the fringe too) so it would work both ways.

[Curried]

I'm unsure why those businesses are opposed to it. The consultation has only just begun, so perhaps that will come out in due course.

As an aside, would you extend the tax-paying to other businesses who profit from increased visitor-business? Restaurants, pubs, taxi drivers, theatres, buses, shops, half-and half scarf sellers :greengrin,.......and on and on.


I don’t think there’s any real mystery to it. If you try to book a room in a hotel in Edinburgh over the festival, you’ll find it on average higher than anywhere else in Europe. These businesses are making a killing, and don’t want to kill the Golden Goose.


RE: the aside, its a good question, but not one I can answer with any conviction as I'm not in favour of any tourist tax.

[CropleyWasGod]

I don’t think there’s any real mystery to it. If you try to book a room in a hotel in Edinburgh over the festival, you’ll find it on average higher than anywhere else in Europe. These businesses are making a killing, and don’t want to kill the Golden Goose.


RE: the aside, its a good question, but not one I can't answer with any conviction as I'm not in favour of any tourist tax.

Will they kill the goose, though?

A room which might cost 100 quid would cost the visitor 102. The hotel still get their 100.

[danhibees1875]

I don’t think there’s any real mystery to it. If you try to book a room in a hotel in Edinburgh over the festival, you’ll find it on average higher than anywhere else in Europe. These businesses are making a killing, and don’t want to kill the Golden Goose.


RE: the aside, its a good question, but not one I can't answer with any conviction as I'm not in favour of any tourist tax.

Do you think it would have any impact on hotels though? If a couple come over to Edinburgh for a week during August they're going to be paying quite a bit for that all together; will the additional £14 put them off?

All of those £14's added together make for an estimated £11m apparently - which can be put to providing a cleaner city more capable of handling a large number of tourists in theory. This would then be good for the tourists and the locals - win/win. Do you think that money should be found elsewhere, or that it's just not needed as an extra source of money to help run the city?

(sorry, that's a lot of questions and I don't mean for this to seem like everyone is having a go at you - you're just the first person I've seen offer that opinion and I'm curious for your thoughts/alternatives!)

[Curried]

Do you think it would have any impact on hotels though? If a couple come over to Edinburgh for a week during August they're going to be paying quite a bit for that all together; will the additional £14 put them off?

All of those £14's added together make for an estimated £11m apparently - which can be put to providing a cleaner city more capable of handling a large number of tourists in theory. This would then be good for the tourists and the locals - win/win. Do you think that money should be found elsewhere, or that it's just not needed as an extra source of money to help run the city?

(sorry, that's a lot of questions and I don't mean for this to seem like everyone is having a go at you - you're just the first person I've seen offer that opinion and I'm curious for your thoughts/alternatives!)


To be honest, I can't answer for what most people would do. I certainly know that in my touristic experience, I've voted with my feet if I through I was being taken advantage of, and have gone elsewhere. As I intimated to CWG, I'm not in favour of any tourist tax, but I'm sure when the issue is debated by the Government over the next few days that some alternative initiatives will be proposed.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I don’t think there’s any real mystery to it. If you try to book a room in a hotel in Edinburgh over the festival, you’ll find it on average higher than anywhere else in Europe. These businesses are making a killing, and don’t want to kill the Golden Goose.


RE: the aside, its a good question, but not one I can answer with any conviction as I'm not in favour of any tourist tax.

I suspect it's more to do with them not wanting the hassle of administering this tax, changing all of their materials , it systems etc

[beensaidbefore]

We had to pay $50 US to get out of Mexico in July. That's quite a bit more than 2 quid a night. Bit of a pain but wouldn't stop me going back.

I have had to pay similar in the mallorca/ibiza so not sure why it wouldn't work here too.

[Mr Grieves]

In Italy it’s only paid in 5 Star Hotels. Are Edinburgh planning for it to be in every Hotel?

I had to pay a tax in a 3 star hotel in Italy last year

[Speedy]

I’ve always resented the fact that in many countries, as a “foreigner”, I’ve often had to cough-up much higher rates than a “local” to use public transport, stay in a hotel, or enter a public site.

I fully appreciate the widely-held belief that in some countries (particularly the very poor ones), that this revenue is used to support a wider economic dividend for the population. However, in my experience, such monies invariably end up in the hands of crooked government officials or businesses.

Scotland has experienced a massive tourism boom over recent years and hotels and tourist-based businesses are increasing their revenues year on year (see FMQ’s today). Maybe these businesses should be forking-out the tax.

Locals pay various other taxis already that'll contribute towards infrastructure etc.

[stoneyburn hibs]

My hotel stay in Crete on Saturday week has a €4 government tax per night and a 0.5% city tax. I wouldn't have checked if it wasn't for this thread.

Tourists won't bat an eyelid.

[eastterrace]

My hotel stay in Crete on Saturday week has a €4 government tax per night and a 0.5% city tax. I wouldn't have checked if it wasn't for this thread.

Tourists won't bat an eyelid.

But will the council spend it wisely or just blow it on 20 mile zones being repainted.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[IGRIGI]

Plenty of cities have it and I never bat an eye lid at it, would be a very good move for Edinburgh.

[Colr]

It would have to apply to Air BnB so presummably, they will have to register. They can then put them ina seperate planning category and control their impact on neighbours.

[Scouse Hibee]

Paid it in Vegas, currently in San Francisco and not been mentioned, New York still to come and it’s $21 per night there.

[makaveli1875]

Paid it in Vegas, currently in San Francisco and not been mentioned, New York still to come and it’s $21 per night there.

I did the exact same trip last year , pretty sure San Francisco never had 1

[Bangkok Hibby]

In other countries, hotels just add £2 a night onto your stay.

This is then passed on to the council to spend on street cleaning,bin collections, etc.

I would assume it's the same here.

You mean jobs the council tax should be paying for?

[Hibbyradge]

You mean jobs the council tax should be paying for?

Why do cities around the world have a tourist tax?

[Chic Murray]

You mean jobs the council tax should be paying for?

Visitors put extra strain on the jobs that the council tax should pay for, but do not contribute. Edinburgh council tax payers subsidise the profits of hoteliers and student accommodation providers.

We are told that tourism benefits the local economy. If that's the case, how come we are cutting back on services?

I think that it's because we are spending our money supporting the tourism sector, and the tourism sector is not contributing much to the economy. I think the profits end up leaving the city.

Tourism makes it harder for the real wealth generators like financial services to do their job, by things like road closures, and inflating property prices.

[Bangkok Hibby]

Visitors put extra strain on the jobs that the council tax should pay for, but do not contribute. Edinburgh council tax payers subsidise the profits of hoteliers and student accommodation providers.

We are told that tourism benefits the local economy. If that's the case, how come we are cutting back on services?

I think that it's because we are spending our money supporting the tourism sector, and the tourism sector is not contributing much to the economy. I think the profits end up leaving the city.

Tourism makes it harder for the real wealth generators like financial services to do their job, by things like road closures, and inflating property prices.

If a city can show where tourist tax money is spent AND ring fence it then maybe it's an idea. Too many taxes just disappear into a black hole for me.

[Sylar]

Paid it in Vegas, currently in San Francisco and not been mentioned, New York still to come and it’s $21 per night there.


I did the exact same trip last year , pretty sure San Francisco never had 1

San Fran definitely does have one. It's around 15% from memory.

There's a Transient Occupancy Tax all across California.

[RyeSloan]

If a city can show where tourist tax money is spent AND ring fence it then maybe it's an idea. Too many taxes just disappear into a black hole for me.

Ring fenced / hypothecated taxes are rarely a good idea.

As for the ‘that’s what council tax is for’...you are missing the point completely.

Tourism, while supporting local jobs and businesses, puts additional strain on the city in terms of infrastructure and management of events etc. The additional costs of which are not directly reflected in the income to the council (council tax for example is paid by residents not tourists or businesses).

Further more the SG takes a large chunk of the business rates and reallocates the money out of the city.

So a tourist tax is simply an additional revenue stream for the council to partly mitigate the costs associated with having a city that has such large tourist numbers.

That said I think this is just a symptom of the broken method of funding councils and the services hey are expected to provide.

I would be advocating a complete change of approach where the provision of housing, education and social care is overseen by a completely different body compared to the city services provided. When you look at the money spent by the council you soon see that the vast majority of its expenditure has nothing to do with street maintenance, cleaning, infrastructure etc yet most residents seem to think this is its primary function.

I find it rather odd that we expect Councils to be able to deliver such disparate and diverse services effectively (and therefore no surprise when they struggle to do so) and think its high time a wholesale review of provision, responsibly and funding was undertaken for local government.

[Chic Murray]

Ring fenced / hypothecated taxes are rarely a good idea.

As for the ‘that’s what council tax is for’...you are missing the point completely.

Tourism, while supporting local jobs and businesses, puts additional strain on the city in terms of infrastructure and management of events etc. The additional costs of which are not directly reflected in the income to the council (council tax for example is paid by residents not tourists or businesses).

Further more the SG takes a large chunk of the business rates and reallocates the money out of the city.

So a tourist tax is simply an additional revenue stream for the council to partly mitigate the costs associated with having a city that has such large tourist numbers.

That said I think this is just a symptom of the broken method of funding councils and the services hey are expected to provide.

I would be advocating a complete change of approach where the provision of housing, education and social care is overseen by a completely different body compared to the city services provided. When you look at the money spent by the council you soon see that the vast majority of its expenditure has nothing to do with street maintenance, cleaning, infrastructure etc yet most residents seem to think this is its primary function.

I find it rather odd that we expect Councils to be able to deliver such disparate and diverse services effectively (and therefore no surprise when they struggle to do so) and think its high time a wholesale review of provision, responsibly and funding was undertaken for local government.

Alternatively, they could move their business plan away from tourism, and manage a city that supports itself through traditional industries, such as brewing, printing, and electronics. Oh, wait...

At least we've still got financial services. Or, they've got us, I'm never sure. :greengrin

[RyeSloan]

Alternatively, they could move their business plan away from tourism, and manage a city that supports itself through traditional industries, such as brewing, printing, and electronics. Oh, wait...

At least we've still got financial services. Or, they've got us, I'm never sure. :greengrin

Does the city council have a business plan?

Seems to me tourism is being driven by the huge increase in the middle class from Asia not by a cunning plan dreamt up by the council.

Anyway there is nothing wrong with Edinburgh’s economy and it is in fact one of the strongest in the UK across numerous metrics. On GVA per head it is second only to London.

The financing of its council and what its council is tasked to do is where the problem lies.

[Chic Murray]

Does the city council have a business plan?

Seems to me tourism is being driven by the huge increase in the middle class from Asia not by a cunning plan dreamt up by the council.

Anyway there is nothing wrong with Edinburgh’s economy and it is in fact one of the strongest in the UK across numerous metrics. On GVA per head it is second only to London.

The financing of its council and what its council is tasked to do is where the problem lies.

Those bozos never had an original idea in their lives. Whatever is driving it, it's not them.

I can't help feeling we are paying enough council tax to maintain the town as a middle sized city. I was interested in what you said about the government skinning off cash, and investing it outside the city.

At the end of the day I would probably prefer the city was run by SPFL level politicians, than the pub league players we have on the council.

[JeMeSouviens]

Does the city council have a business plan?

Seems to me tourism is being driven by the huge increase in the middle class from Asia not by a cunning plan dreamt up by the council.

Anyway there is nothing wrong with Edinburgh’s economy and it is in fact one of the strongest in the UK across numerous metrics. On GVA per head it is second only to London.

The financing of its council and what its council is tasked to do is where the problem lies.

Short term, it's currently getting a big boost from currency devaluation.

[lucky]

A tourist tax is great idea and it gives councils extra revenue to run their authority. Our councils badly need more revenue and ways to raise it as Holyrood has been power grabbing for at least 10 years

[Hibbyradge]

Does the city council have a business plan?

Seems to me tourism is being driven by the huge increase in the middle class from Asia not by a cunning plan dreamt up by the council.

Anyway there is nothing wrong with Edinburgh’s economy and it is in fact one of the strongest in the UK across numerous metrics. On GVA per head it is second only to London.

The financing of its council and what its council is tasked to do is where the problem lies.

The council is an easy target, but on this occasion that's not true and it's not fair.

The council have been working at increasing tourism in the city for decades.

[RyeSloan]

Those bozos never had an original idea in their lives. Whatever is driving it, it's not them.

I can't help feeling we are paying enough council tax to maintain the town as a middle sized city. I was interested in what you said about the government skinning off cash, and investing it outside the city.

At the end of the day I would probably prefer the city was run by SPFL level politicians, than the pub league players we have on the council.

Yeah I think our view on the quality of local administration leadership is aligned.

I can’t remember the exact numbers re local authority financing and think the methodologies have changed over the years, what I am certain of is that Edinburgh gets a bum deal and is bottom of the list on £ spent per head of population.

[Chic Murray]

If a city can show where tourist tax money is spent AND ring fence it then maybe it's an idea. Too many taxes just disappear into a black hole for me.

I have to agree, and the biggest argument against the tax, for me, is that Edinburgh Council will just see it as more money to pass on to their pals.


The council is an easy target, but on this occasion that's not true and it's not fair.

The council have been working at increasing tourism in the city for decades.

Plot on a graph though, and you will probably see a massive upsurge in the last 10 years, mostly from China and the Sub Continent.

Tourism hasn't always been unpopular in Edinburgh. Who wants to live a place that people don't want to visit.

The council's "strategy" has been to pack in as many visitors as it possibly can. In the process they have ignored the needs of residents, eg getting around town, getting to work etc; they have also sold an increasingly tatty and overpriced product.

Last year there were rats in the bins on the Royal Mile. That's how inept they actually are, they can't even maintain the product.

[CropleyWasGod]

I have to agree, and the biggest argument against the tax, for me, is that Edinburgh Council will just see it as more money to pass on to their pals.



.

Who are their pals?

[Chic Murray]

Who are their pals?

Management consultants, departmental managers, providers of mass transit systems, events promoters, artisan coffee sellers, pop up publicans. I'm stretching the meaning of pals, I admit, as psychopaths are incapable of genuine friendships.

[CropleyWasGod]

Management consultants, departmental managers, providers of mass transit systems, events promoters, artisan coffee sellers, pop up publicans. I'm stretching the meaning of pals, I admit, as psychopaths are incapable of genuine friendships.

You mean they won't spend it on what it's meant for?

And, "psychopaths"?

[Chic Murray]

You mean they won't spend it on what it's meant for?

And, "psychopaths"?

Yes, and not really, but you know? I don't really like them.

[CropleyWasGod]

Yes, and not really, but you know? I don't really like them.

Really? I hadn't noticed :greengrin

I'd rather give them the chance myself, and, if they **** it up.... bin them. And don't collect the bin. :cb

[One Day Soon]

Management consultants, departmental managers, providers of mass transit systems, events promoters, artisan coffee sellers, pop up publicans. I'm stretching the meaning of pals, I admit, as psychopaths are incapable of genuine friendships.


Which 'they' are you referring to here - elected Councillors or the permanent officials?

Implementing a Tourist Tax is a complete no-brainer. The vast number of visitors generated by a mixture of the dumb luck of our history and location, the hard work that goes into maintaining profile through the festivals and Hogmanay and the city's attractiveness as a work and academic location means that a huge amount of demand is placed on public services without a direct means of recouping the costs.

All that visitor traffic is good for business and jobs - and incidentally has a significant trickle-down effect elsewhere in Scotland geographically - but the Council itself sees little benefit in revenue terms to assist in the provision of all the services a city needs to support these visitor activities.

There's a mechanism for regulating how the Council spends its money - local elections. So if you don't like how the SNP-led coalition currently in charge of Edinburgh is performing, whether on counting demonstration sizes or providing decent roads or bin collections, you can vote for someone else next time.

[Chic Murray]

Really? I hadn't noticed :greengrin

I'd rather give them the chance myself, and, if they **** it up.... bin them. And don't collect the bin. :cb

You can't bin them, due to the electoral system, and the fact that all parties have the same policies.

[Chic Murray]

Which 'they' are you referring to here - elected Councillors or the permanent officials?

Implementing a Tourist Tax is a complete no-brainer. The vast number of visitors generated by a mixture of the dumb luck of our history and location, the hard work that goes into maintaining profile through the festivals and Hogmanay and the city's attractiveness as a work and academic location means that a huge amount of demand is placed on public services without a direct means of recouping the costs.

All that visitor traffic is good for business and jobs - and incidentally has a significant trickle-down effect elsewhere in Scotland geographically - but the Council itself sees little benefit in revenue terms to assist in the provision of all the services a city needs to support these visitor activities.

There's a mechanism for regulating how the Council spends its money - local elections. So if you don't like how the SNP-led coalition currently in charge of Edinburgh is performing, whether on counting demonstration sizes or providing decent roads or bin collections, you can vote for someone else next time.

Local elections have been a source of much frustration for many residents. Hence the grass roots resistance growing in Leith and other places.

We also have joke consultations over issues like public parks, cycleways and other things that effect residents at the expense of transients and multi national businesses.

In the spirit of transparency, I cite recent consultations on West Princes Street Gardens, and Meadowbank. Open to non residents, and it is very easy to vote twice.

I don't get how the council can run the city if they can't control their staff.

[One Day Soon]

Local elections have been a source of much frustration for many residents. Hence the grass roots resistance growing in Leith and other places.

We also have joke consultations over issues like public parks, cycleways and other things that effect residents at the expense of transients and multi national businesses.

In the spirit of transparency, I cite recent consultations on West Princes Street Gardens, and Meadowbank. Open to job residents, and it is very easy to vote twice.

I don't get how the council can run the city if they can't control their staff.


Elections may be a source of frustration but they are the only mechanism open to you when push literally comes to shove. People like Trump, May, Corbyn and Sturgeon don't elect themselves, we put them there. So we as electorates have a responsibility to get engaged. For example, without the votes for Leave in Scotland and Wales the UK wouldn't currently be negotiating Brexit, so every election does matter.

Who are the 'they' that you don't like in the Council, is it elected members or officers or both?

[Chic Murray]

Elections may be a source of frustration but they are the only mechanism open to you when push literally comes to shove. People like Trump, May, Corbyn and Sturgeon don't elect themselves, we put them there. So we as electorates have a responsibility to get engaged. For example, without the votes for Leave in Scotland and Wales the UK wouldn't currently be negotiating Brexit, so every election does matter.

Who are the 'they' that you don't like in the Council, is it elected members or officers or both?

Engage with what though? Take the trams, not one party stood on a ticket that said there would be no extension.

My ward (Forth) has four councillors. It's practically impossible not to get elected.

I'm afraid more direct action is what it's going to take. Because at the moment, "lessons will be learned", and "we look forward to hearing the suggestions" is not cutting it in terms of what people want, or don't want.

[Curried]

Which 'they' are you referring to here - elected Councillors or the permanent officials?

Implementing a Tourist Tax is a complete no-brainer. The vast number of visitors generated by a mixture of the dumb luck of our history and location, the hard work that goes into maintaining profile through the festivals and Hogmanay and the city's attractiveness as a work and academic location means that a huge amount of demand is placed on public services without a direct means of recouping the costs.

All that visitor traffic is good for business and jobs - and incidentally has a significant trickle-down effect elsewhere in Scotland geographically - but the Council itself sees little benefit in revenue terms to assist in the provision of all the services a city needs to support these visitor activities.

There's a mechanism for regulating how the Council spends its money - local elections. So if you don't like how the SNP-led coalition currently in charge of Edinburgh is performing, whether on counting demonstration sizes or providing decent roads or bin collections, you can vote for someone else next time.



If “All that visitor traffic is good for business and jobs” then why not get those businesses put their hands in their distended pockets and pay for it……As a tourist, I don’t want to pay any more for my outrageous hotel/AirB&B price.

The EC council will more than likely waste the extra revenue garnered from any tourist tax on polishing their *****.

[Bangkok Hibby]

Why not implement a "windfall tax" on Edinburgh hotels who greatly increase their prices (sometimes quadrupled) during the festival, rugby internationals etc.

[Jack]

If “All that visitor traffic is good for business and jobs” then why not get those businesses put their hands in their distended pockets and pay for it……As a tourist, I don’t want to pay any more for my outrageous hotel/AirB&B price.

The EC council will more than likely waste the extra revenue garnered from any tourist tax on polishing their *****.

If you're a tourist unwilling to pay the tax in Edinburgh and presumably elsewhere you'll not be a tourist anywhere before long!

[Curried]

UOTE=Bangkok Hibby;5573906]Why not implement a "windfall tax" on Edinburgh hotels who greatly increase their prices (sometimes quadrupled) during the festival, rugby internationals etc.[/QUOTE]

Good idea....why not :agree:

[Curried]

If you're a tourist unwilling to pay the tax in Edinburgh and presumably elsewhere you'll not be a tourist anywhere before long!


I think you’re on the money, as there are very few places on the planet where the coke bottle has not landed:-)

[Hibbyradge]

Why not implement a "windfall tax" on Edinburgh hotels who greatly increase their prices (sometimes quadrupled) during the festival, rugby internationals etc.

Would you suggest subsidising them during the quiet times?

[RyeSloan]

Would you suggest subsidising them during the quiet times?

Or indeed take into consideration their business rates, employee costs, use of local food producers and trades etc etc before assuming just because a business charges something they are making vast profits.

And where do you stop with such a concept?

Windfall tax on any business that directly or indirectly benefits from tourists just because they happen to make a few quid from them?

The tourist tax works as it’s a specific charge on a visitor to the city that is a direct contribution to the main authority that is responsible for the many amenities a tourist utilized on their visit.

Random ‘windfall’ taxes on local businesses is hardly the same.

[CropleyWasGod]

If “All that visitor traffic is good for business and jobs” then why not get those businesses put their hands in their distended pockets and pay for it……As a tourist, I don’t want to pay any more for my outrageous hotel/AirB&B price.

The EC council will more than likely waste the extra revenue garnered from any tourist tax on polishing their *****.Who would pay it? Just hotels, or taxi-drivers, shops, restaurants, theatres, public transport and every other business that makes money from tourists?

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[Bangkok Hibby]

Would you suggest subsidising them during the quiet times?

I assume any business will work to margins which keep them competitive and provide a nice dividend for shareholders, or a wee holiday for the owners. So bearing that in mind, I don't feel sorry or feel any sense of responsibility to put my hand in my pocket to further their profits in any way.

These same businesses (hotels) then proceed to rip the pish out of tourists during busy times. My question is simple...why should tourists be expected to pay extra, on top of the already inflated costs these hotels impose.
If the answer is because "Edinburgh council need it" then I'll go back to my point about businesses contributing something from their profits.

[Bangkok Hibby]

Who would pay it? Just hotels, or taxi-drivers, shops, restaurants, theatres, public transport and every other business that makes money from tourists?

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For me it would be hotels who raise prices during busy times. Taxis, public transport, theatre tickets etc are the same price all year as far as I'm aware

[NAE NOOKIE]

I'm pretty certain I've read of north American cities levying a tourist tax to pay for stadiums they are helping the local baseball or American football franchise to build …. especially cities hoping to attract a new American football franchise or to get one to relocate there.

If this works in Edinburgh perhaps Glasgow could levy a Hampden renovations tourist tax :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

For me it would be hotels who raise prices during busy times. Taxis, public transport, theatre tickets etc are the same price all year as far as I'm aware

Theatre tickets are different prices during busy periods.

Train fares, flights, holidays generally, and Uber all raise prices when they get busy.

[Speedy]

I assume any business will work to margins which keep them competitive and provide a nice dividend for shareholders, or a wee holiday for the owners. So bearing that in mind, I don't feel sorry or feel any sense of responsibility to put my hand in my pocket to further their profits in any way.

These same businesses (hotels) then proceed to rip the pish out of tourists during busy times. My question is simple...why should tourists be expected to pay extra, on top of the already inflated costs these hotels impose.
If the answer is because "Edinburgh council need it" then I'll go back to my point about businesses contributing something from their profits.

Dividends/profits etc. will be assessed over a year.

While a business may make a lot in August, they make a loss in January.

[CropleyWasGod]

For me it would be hotels who raise prices during busy times. Taxis, public transport, theatre tickets etc are the same price all year as far as I'm awareWhat about the months when they reduce prices, but still have to pay their staff and overheads? Or the months when they close because there's not enough business?

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[Saturday Boy]

I’ve never really understood why we didn’t have a tourist tax of some form.

Going back to the early 1980s, I can remember paying a “Bad” tax while touring West Germany (as was) on my bike. Even one night in a wet campsite attracted the tax, if it was a spa town. Wish I’d never gone to Baden Wurttemberg 😄

I’m sure some of our German residents can confirm my memories.

[Bangkok Hibby]

What about the months when they reduce prices, but still have to pay their staff and overheads? Or the months when they close because there's not enough business?

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No hotel will reduce prices to the point they can't pay enough staff to keep open. I'd suggest they shouldn't be in business if that's the case. Do you know for a fact that some hotels close when it's quiet?
Whilst quiet times are a trial for businesses (I know this through trying to keep a golf club bar profitable) The whole point of my argument is the outrageous increases (Edinburgh) hotels impose during busy times. If there must be a levy paid to the council I propose it's shared between the tourist tax and something from the profits of the hotels who benefit the most.

[Bangkok Hibby]

Dividends/profits etc. will be assessed over a year.

While a business may make a lot in August, they make a loss in January.

A loss? How do you know? Quieter times yes, less profits yes, but I'm sure they make enough to tick over, then BOOM, hammer the tourist time!

If the local Tesco or Sainsbury's did the same during the festival people would be up in arms.

[CropleyWasGod]

No hotel will reduce prices to the point they can't pay enough staff to keep open. I'd suggest they shouldn't be in business if that's the case. Do you know for a fact that some hotels close when it's quiet?
Whilst quiet times are a trial for businesses (I know this through trying to keep a golf club bar profitable) The whole point of my argument is the outrageous increases (Edinburgh) hotels impose during busy times. If there must be a levy paid to the council I propose it's shared between the tourist tax and something from the profits of the hotels who benefit the most.

In answer to your question, many smaller hotels and guest houses do close during the winter months. That's sometimes to keep themselves below the VAT threshold, but more often because there's not enough business to justify being open.

On your wider point, every hotel industry in every tourist destination raises their prices at peak times. That's just basic capitalism. I'm not sure why Edinburgh should be any different.

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[Bangkok Hibby]

In answer to your question, many smaller hotels and guest houses do close during the winter months. That's sometimes to keep themselves below the VAT threshold, but more often because there's not enough business to justify being open.

On your wider point, every hotel industry in every tourist destination raises their prices at peak times. That's just basic capitalism. I'm not sure why Edinburgh should be any different.

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OK no problem, I haven't lived in Edinburgh for a very long time so I accept what you say about Hotels closing.

The original question was about an "Edinburgh tourist tax" so that's why I've focussed my comments on Edinburgh. I also know how capitalism works but I also firmly believe Edinburgh hotels "rip the pish" :agree::aok:

Nice group this.....measured responses in the main and very little aggro. It's a pleasure to be a member :flag:

[CropleyWasGod]

OK no problem, I haven't lived in Edinburgh for a very long time so I accept what you say about Hotels closing.

The original question was about an "Edinburgh tourist tax" so that's why I've focussed my comments on Edinburgh. I also know how capitalism works but I also firmly believe Edinburgh hotels "rip the pish" :agree::aok:

Nice group this.....measured responses in the main and very little aggro. It's a pleasure to be a member :flag:

:greengrin

It's an interesting debate, and one which might fall at the first hurdle if the SG decide not to grant the power to CEC.

If it goes ahead, simplicity is the key for me. Otherwise, it just gets bogged down in administration and the consequent costs. Although I can see the argument for a profits-based levy, the enforcement of that is fraught with potential complications. That, for me, is why a simple "£x per night" is the best solution.

[Hibbyradge]

OK no problem, I haven't lived in Edinburgh for a very long time so I accept what you say about Hotels closing.

The original question was about an "Edinburgh tourist tax" so that's why I've focussed my comments on Edinburgh. I also know how capitalism works but I also firmly believe Edinburgh hotels "rip the pish" :agree::aok:

Nice group this.....measured responses in the main and very little aggro. It's a pleasure to be a member :flag:

I've just booked a room in Las Vegas for 6 nights over Hogmanay. It's costing nearly £1600. Literally.

6 nights in November cost half that.

Try booking a flight or a holiday during the school term and compare that to the peak summer period.

It's supply and demand. Prices will be as low as required to fill rooms, sell flights. When people are willing to pay more, prices will rise

If there's a scarce toy or electronic gadget this Christmas, pop over to eBay to see the principal in operation too. 😉

[PeeJay]

I’ve never really understood why we didn’t have a tourist tax of some form.

Going back to the early 1980s, I can remember paying a “Bad” tax while touring West Germany (as was) on my bike. Even one night in a wet campsite attracted the tax, if it was a spa town. Wish I’d never gone to Baden Wurttemberg 😄

I’m sure some of our German residents can confirm my memories.

Yeah - Kurtax is still required here - and if you get caught by an inspector on, e.g. a beach without the card/receipt proving you have paid your tax, you will have to pay an on-the-spot fine - if you refuse to pay, you get taken to a quite spot where you will be shot ... having said that, I've lived most of my life here and no inspector has ever asked me on a beach to produce confirmation that I have actually paid my Kurtax - I haven't seen anyone being shot either come to think of it - not yet anyway ...

The tax is levied on everybody who visits the tourist resort/town - you don't have to stay overnight, just being there is enough ...


NB - A part of this post is not actually true ...

[Bangkok Hibby]

I've just booked a room in Las Vegas for 6 nights over Hogmanay. It's costing nearly £1600. Literally.

6 nights in November cost half that.

Try booking a flight or a holiday during the school term and compare that to the peak summer period.

It's supply and demand. Prices will be as low as required to fill rooms, sell flights. When people are willing to pay more, prices will rise

If there's a scarce toy or electronic gadget this Christmas, pop over to eBay to see the principal in operation too. 😉

Yea thanks for the lesson on supply and demand. For the final time I'll say my point is about "Edinburgh hotels" Many raising their prices up to four times during "any busy period" Festival, Rugby match, Rod Stewart concert etc.

Have a nice day

[Hibbyradge]

Yea thanks for the lesson on supply and demand. For the final time I'll say my point is about "Edinburgh hotels" Many raising their prices up to four times during "any busy period" Festival, Rugby match, Rod Stewart concert etc.

Have a nice day

I thought that this was a friendly, civilised forum with measured responses. Obviously, I seem to have hit inadvertently a nerve.

My point is that you want Edinburgh hoteyliers to behave differently from every other hotel on the planet. I think those expectations are unreasonable.

[RyeSloan]

Yea thanks for the lesson on supply and demand. For the final time I'll say my point is about "Edinburgh hotels" Many raising their prices up to four times during "any busy period" Festival, Rugby match, Rod Stewart concert etc.

Have a nice day

The point is pretty clear. Raising prices is common practice across many industries so the challenge to you is why you have singled out ‘Edinburgh hotels’ for doing just that and why that demands a specific tax on just hotels. You have singularly failed to justify that position as to why just hotels.

You are also basing the whole premise of your windfall tax on the fact that a certain business type raises prices according to the time of year. A metric that does zero to evidence the ability to pay said tax or the level of profitability of the business. So you have also failed to justify the suitability of your chosen metric in how it would be used to determine the suitable level of tax to be levied.

To be fair though it is a nice day [emoji1303][emoji38]

[Bangkok Hibby]

The point is pretty clear. Raising prices is common practice across many industries so the challenge to you is why you have singled out ‘Edinburgh hotels’ for doing just that and why that demands a specific tax on just hotels. You have singularly failed to justify that position as to why just hotels.

You are also basing the whole premise of your windfall tax on the fact that a certain business type raises prices according to the time of year. A metric that does zero to evidence the ability to pay said tax or the level of profitability of the business. So you have also failed to justify the suitability of your chosen metric in how it would be used to determine the suitable level of tax to be levied.

To be fair though it is a nice day [emoji1303][emoji38]

This thread is about an Edinburgh tourist tax. I travel extensively and have to visit Edinburgh on many occasions throughout the year. The major expense I face is grossly inflated hotel prices at certain times of the year. We all understand supply and demand, increased cost of flights during school holidays, increased hotel costs at Xmas/New Year etc. Hence my perhaps curt answer above.

Whilst I am in Edinburgh during these times (let's call me a tourist) taxi fares, bus fares, meals, a few pints, newspapers, cigarettes, a ticket for a Hibs game, cinema tickets, in fact just about anything you can think of a tourist does, are generally the same from one month to the next. You say raising prices is common across many industries. I say the major beneficiary of this practice are hotels. I find that Edinburgh hotels (as this is an Edinburgh tourist tax thread) jump on any anticipated busy spell, for example a rugby match or a concert, to raise prices, sometimes quadrupling the cost of a stay. To answer your question above, this is why I single out hotels.

As the overwhelming major beneficiary of the bonus of the tourist Dollar, Yen, Euro, etc I don't think it would be unreasonable (if extra money is needed for the city) to get some sort of contribution from the hotels. Remember tourists don't come to Edinburgh to see hotels but hotels get the cash windfall. But let's not call it a windfall tax, call it anything you want. And as for how it would work....I haven't a clue. I'd be a politician and join the rest who haven't a clue.

My main point is whilst many different businesses enjoy increased profits during busy times in Edinburgh, this is achieved through volume of trade. Hotels however hugely increase prices and may even put people off visiting the city during these periods. I wonder if there is data anywhere on how Scottish hotel prices affect peoples decisions to visit (or at least stay) in certain cities.

[CropleyWasGod]

This thread is about an Edinburgh tourist tax. I travel extensively and have to visit Edinburgh on many occasions throughout the year. The major expense I face is grossly inflated hotel prices at certain times of the year. We all understand supply and demand, increased cost of flights during school holidays, increased hotel costs at Xmas/New Year etc. Hence my perhaps curt answer above.

Whilst I am in Edinburgh during these times (let's call me a tourist) taxi fares, bus fares, meals, a few pints, newspapers, cigarettes, a ticket for a Hibs game, cinema tickets, in fact just about anything you can think of a tourist does, are generally the same from one month to the next. You say raising prices is common across many industries. I say the major beneficiary of this practice are hotels. I find that Edinburgh hotels (as this is an Edinburgh tourist tax thread) jump on any anticipated busy spell, for example a rugby match or a concert, to raise prices, sometimes quadrupling the cost of a stay. To answer your question above, this is why I single out hotels.

As the overwhelming major beneficiary of the bonus of the tourist Dollar, Yen, Euro, etc I don't think it would be unreasonable (if extra money is needed for the city) to get some sort of contribution from the hotels. Remember tourists don't come to Edinburgh to see hotels but hotels get the cash windfall. But let's not call it a windfall tax, call it anything you want. And as for how it would work....I haven't a clue. I'd be a politician and join the rest who haven't a clue.

My main point is whilst many different businesses enjoy increased profits during busy times in Edinburgh, this is achieved through volume of trade. Hotels however hugely increase prices and may even put people off visiting the city during these periods. I wonder if there is data anywhere on how Scottish hotel prices affect peoples decisions to visit (or at least stay) in certain cities.

Hotels already have to pay 1/6 of their top line in VAT, as well as 19% Corporation Tax on the remainder of any price increase. If they were subject to a further levy, their simple response would be to put their prices up. In other words, the consumer would still be the ultimate payer.

A flat rate of £2, as has been suggested, would be insignificant in the overall price, particularly to those who are paying high-season prices.

[Scouse Hibee]

This thread is about an Edinburgh tourist tax. I travel extensively and have to visit Edinburgh on many occasions throughout the year. The major expense I face is grossly inflated hotel prices at certain times of the year. We all understand supply and demand, increased cost of flights during school holidays, increased hotel costs at Xmas/New Year etc. Hence my perhaps curt answer above.

Whilst I am in Edinburgh during these times (let's call me a tourist) taxi fares, bus fares, meals, a few pints, newspapers, cigarettes, a ticket for a Hibs game, cinema tickets, in fact just about anything you can think of a tourist does, are generally the same from one month to the next. You say raising prices is common across many industries. I say the major beneficiary of this practice are hotels. I find that Edinburgh hotels (as this is an Edinburgh tourist tax thread) jump on any anticipated busy spell, for example a rugby match or a concert, to raise prices, sometimes quadrupling the cost of a stay. To answer your question above, this is why I single out hotels.

As the overwhelming major beneficiary of the bonus of the tourist Dollar, Yen, Euro, etc I don't think it would be unreasonable (if extra money is needed for the city) to get some sort of contribution from the hotels. Remember tourists don't come to Edinburgh to see hotels but hotels get the cash windfall. But let's not call it a windfall tax, call it anything you want. And as for how it would work....I haven't a clue. I'd be a politician and join the rest who haven't a clue.

My main point is whilst many different businesses enjoy increased profits during busy times in Edinburgh, this is achieved through volume of trade. Hotels however hugely increase prices and may even put people off visiting the city during these periods. I wonder if there is data anywhere on how Scottish hotel prices affect peoples decisions to visit (or at least stay) in certain cities.

I get your gripe about hotels as a paying guest/tourist however the demand on staff and facilities on hotels at the busy times you mention is horrendous. Running at 100% occupancy for a month at a time with many demanding guests increases running costs massively. Also believe it or not there aren’t that many hotels that can run at those occupancy levels and provide an experience that everyone is happy to pay full price for at the end of their stay. Discounting and comping is massive during busy periods to appease guests, and yes I speak from first hand experience. All is not what it seems in regards to revenue at these peak times.

[CropleyWasGod]

I get your gripe about hotels as a paying guest/tourist however the demand on staff and facilities on hotels at the busy times you mention is horrendous. Running at 100% occupancy for a month at a time with many demanding guests increases running costs massively. Also believe it or not there aren’t that many hotels that can run at those occupancy levels and provide an experience that everyone is happy to pay full price for at the end of their stay. Discounting and comping is massive during busy periods to appease guests, and yes I speak from first hand experience. All is not what it seems in regards to revenue at these peak times.

I've just seen a survey that claims Edinburgh was at 86% occupancy over 2017.

Taking into account the smaller places that close in quiet times, and the quiet times themselves (admittedly, these are rare in Edinburgh nowadays), that suggests to me that for a large part of the year, 100% is more or less the norm.

[RyeSloan]

This thread is about an Edinburgh tourist tax. I travel extensively and have to visit Edinburgh on many occasions throughout the year. The major expense I face is grossly inflated hotel prices at certain times of the year. We all understand supply and demand, increased cost of flights during school holidays, increased hotel costs at Xmas/New Year etc. Hence my perhaps curt answer above.

Whilst I am in Edinburgh during these times (let's call me a tourist) taxi fares, bus fares, meals, a few pints, newspapers, cigarettes, a ticket for a Hibs game, cinema tickets, in fact just about anything you can think of a tourist does, are generally the same from one month to the next. You say raising prices is common across many industries. I say the major beneficiary of this practice are hotels. I find that Edinburgh hotels (as this is an Edinburgh tourist tax thread) jump on any anticipated busy spell, for example a rugby match or a concert, to raise prices, sometimes quadrupling the cost of a stay. To answer your question above, this is why I single out hotels.

As the overwhelming major beneficiary of the bonus of the tourist Dollar, Yen, Euro, etc I don't think it would be unreasonable (if extra money is needed for the city) to get some sort of contribution from the hotels. Remember tourists don't come to Edinburgh to see hotels but hotels get the cash windfall. But let's not call it a windfall tax, call it anything you want. And as for how it would work....I haven't a clue. I'd be a politician and join the rest who haven't a clue.

My main point is whilst many different businesses enjoy increased profits during busy times in Edinburgh, this is achieved through volume of trade. Hotels however hugely increase prices and may even put people off visiting the city during these periods. I wonder if there is data anywhere on how Scottish hotel prices affect peoples decisions to visit (or at least stay) in certain cities.

Cinema tickets are differently priced for different times

Rugby matches are differently priced according to the opposition and level of match

Taxis are different prices at different times

Restaurants offer cheaper meals at lunchtime compared to dinner time

The list goes on and on and some of them are clear beneficiaries of tourism.

So while I get your beef about hotels and their variable pricing it’s simply not the case that they are the only business that do that or benefit from tourists when doing so.

And as for proposing a tax on a metric that does nothing to reflect the ability to pay then just shrugging when asked how it would work....well that doesn’t exactly add much weight to your argument I would suggest.

The tourist tax works as it’s a direct tax on the person, is a set amount that is easily collectible while going directly to the recipient city.

A random tax based on nothing but a dislike of variable pricing by one particular industry in none of those things.

[Bangkok Hibby]

Cinema tickets are differently priced for different times----What times? Time of day or busy tourist periods? Examples?

Rugby matches are differently priced according to the opposition and level of match ---Yes but we're talking about tourism and the tourist tax. Should rugby fans who may only be in the city for 1 day pay the tax?

Taxis are different prices at different times ---The council sets the taxi rates, a little more expensive after midnight or Xmas etc maybe but not raised because the town is busy.

Restaurants offer cheaper meals at lunchtime compared to dinner time---But their main menu prices are not raised during busy tourist times..is so examples please?

The list goes on and on and some of them are clear beneficiaries of tourism. On and on? How many businesses clearly raise their prices to hit tourists?

So while I get your beef about hotels and their variable pricing it’s simply not the case that they are the only business that do that or benefit from tourists when doing so.

And as for proposing a tax on a metric that does nothing to reflect the ability to pay then just shrugging when asked how it would work....well that doesn’t exactly add much weight to your argument I would suggest.

The tourist tax works as it’s a direct tax on the person, is a set amount that is easily collectible while going directly to the recipient city.

A random tax based on nothing but a dislike of variable pricing by one particular industry in none of those things.

I'll hold my hands up to the accusation that I can't back up the logistics of a windfall tax. However I submit your argument that other businesses do the same as hotels re pricing during busy periods doesn't hold water. Evidence for the outrageous pricing structure can clearly be seen on sites like booking.com. Where is the evidence for other businesses clearly and deliberately raising prices hugely during busy times?

[CropleyWasGod]

I'll hold my hands up to the accusation that I can't back up the logistics of a windfall tax. However I submit your argument that other businesses do the same as hotels re pricing during busy periods doesn't hold water. Evidence for the outrageous pricing structure can clearly be seen on sites like booking.com. Where is the evidence for other businesses clearly and deliberately raising prices hugely during busy times?

Dynamic pricing is the basis for that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_pricing

Hibs do it as well. We raise our prices for big games, because we know we can.

[Bangkok Hibby]

Dynamic pricing is the basis for that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_pricing

Hibs do it as well. We raise our prices for big games, because we know we can.

Yes of course. Everyone who comes on here is of course right. I completely understand dynamic pricing/supply and demand but I feel this topic has moved on a little. I'm being told other Edinburgh businesses do as hotels do. Whilst I can prove hotels do it, where is the evidence that others do it to the same extent or at all? Just saying it happens doesn't mean it is.

[CropleyWasGod]

Yes of course. Everyone who comes on here is of course right. I completely understand dynamic pricing/supply and demand but I feel this topic has moved on a little. I'm being told other Edinburgh businesses do as hotels do. Whilst I can prove hotels do it, where is the evidence that others do it to the same extent or at all? Just saying it happens doesn't mean it is.

Hibs.

[Bangkok Hibby]

Hibs.

Stick to topic please. Hibs don't do it because the city is busy or Rod Stewart is playing. Like Rugby fans, should away fans pay tourist tax?

[CropleyWasGod]

Stick to topic please. Hibs don't do it because the city is busy or Rod Stewart is playing. Like Rugby fans, should away fans pay tourist tax?You asked for examples of businesses raising their prices at busier times. Hibs do exactly that.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[RyeSloan]

Yes of course. Everyone who comes on here is of course right. I completely understand dynamic pricing/supply and demand but I feel this topic has moved on a little. I'm being told other Edinburgh businesses do as hotels do. Whilst I can prove hotels do it, where is the evidence that others do it to the same extent or at all? Just saying it happens doesn't mean it is.

Perfect example here of dynamic charging for taxis

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181015/1b6e9d03c8610d5774a66efe066350a3.png

[Bangkok Hibby]

You asked for examples of businesses raising their prices at busier times. Hibs do exactly that.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

Nothing to do with tourists or the tourist tax this thread is about. I suggest it's nothing like what we're talking about here but we obviously have different takes on fleecing tourists.

[Bangkok Hibby]

Perfect example here of dynamic charging for taxis

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181015/1b6e9d03c8610d5774a66efe066350a3.png


What does that prove? I've already said we all know taxi prices vary at times of day and Xmas/New Year. That hits everybody. I'm asking for evidence businesses vastly increase prices during the city's busiest times. Hotels do it, who else?

[CropleyWasGod]

Nothing to do with tourists or the tourist tax this thread is about. I suggest it's nothing like what we're talking about here but we obviously have different takes on fleecing tourists.The justification is exactly the same. Rightly or wrongly, businesses charge what the market will bear.

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[Hibrandenburg]

Stick to topic please. Hibs don't do it because the city is busy or Rod Stewart is playing. Like Rugby fans, should away fans pay tourist tax?

PSG do a weird variation of dynamic ticketing. They sell all their tickets to season ticket holders who then re-sell them via various internet platforms. I'm trying to get tickets for the upcoming game against Napoli and the cheapest tickets for me and the wee man would set me back €566.40 and that's category 17 tickets. Utter madness when you consider that the UK is trying to curb ticket touts it looks like the French are encouraging it.

BTW I'll also have to cough up €0.20 Paris tourist tax per day for the duration of my stay.

[Bangkok Hibby]

The justification is exactly the same. Rightly or wrongly, businesses charge what the market will bear.

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Are you just being deliberately evasive? I've been taken to task quite rightly about my suggestion a windfall levy could be applied to hotels. It's bollocks and unworkable I accept that.
Now give me evidence to back up the further charge that other businesses do the same during busy periods in Edinburgh city to milk as much as they possibly can from tourists. More than one person has told me it happens....show me.

[CropleyWasGod]

Are you just being deliberately evasive? I've been taken to task quite rightly about my suggestion a windfall levy could be applied to hotels. It's bollocks and unworkable I accept that.
Now give me evidence to back up the further charge that other businesses do the same during busy periods in Edinburgh city to milk as much as they possibly can from tourists. More than one person has told me it happens....show me.

Not being evasive in the slightest. You asked for examples of businesses who change their prices at busy times. I gave you one immediately.

Now you're asking for specific examples of businesses who are affected by the tourist industry. That's a different question, but I'll try and answer it.

I have worked with and behalf of such businesses for over 30 years. I can assure you that it happens. As for proof, I'd be betraying confidentiality if I gave you that, so you'll just have to trust my experience. [emoji16]

Like you, I'm a seasoned traveller. The notion of hiking prices at busy times is global. I can't see why Edinburgh should be any different. I also have no problem in paying higher admittance prices to sites than the locals; I understand that I am contributing to the provision of local services. Again, why would a rational visitor think differently?

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[Bangkok Hibby]

Not being evasive in the slightest. You asked for examples of businesses who change their prices at busy times. I gave you one immediately. Hibs raising prices for big games is an example of dynamic pricing as you rightly say. Not an example of milking visitors to the city like hotels do. Again I say this is about tourist tax, should away fans pay tourist tax

Now you're asking for specific examples of businesses who are affected by the tourist industry. That's a different question, but I'll try and answer it...I'm not asking a different question I'm asking my ONLY question

I have worked with and behalf of such businesses for over 30 years. I can assure you that it happens. As for proof, I'd be betraying confidentiality if I gave you that, so you'll just have to trust my experience. [emoji16] So no evidence then

Like you, I'm a seasoned traveller. The notion of hiking prices at busy times is global. I can't see why Edinburgh should be any different. I also have no problem in paying higher admittance prices to sites than the locals; I understand that I am contributing to the provision of local services. Again, why would a rational visitor think differently? Which sites charge extra admittance when the city is busy with tourists. Apart from hotels?

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Still waiting for evidence that businesses act like hotels and fleece tourists like hotels do.

[Bangkok Hibby]

Teatime, thanks for the chat. Hope our Aussie boys come back uninjured :flag::flag:

[RyeSloan]

Still waiting for evidence that businesses act like hotels and fleece tourists like hotels do.

How is it ‘fleecing’? That signifies the tourist has no option nor was aware of the cost...neither of which will generally be true. They will have made a conscious decision to visit Edinburgh and understood the cost of accommodation during the time they choose to visit.

You’ve been given multiple examples of dynamic pricing across many industries (including airlines who will carry lots of tourists!) that effect the people that use that service.

Are you saying that only hotels are ‘fleecing’ people if those people are classed as tourists and the multiple other businesses who have dynamic pricing are not ‘fleecing’ their patrons simply because they might not immediately be classified as a tourist?

[Jack]

Still waiting for evidence that businesses act like hotels and fleece tourists like hotels do.

Not evidence as such but all the tartan tatt shops have sales when there's fewer tourists about.

[Hibrandenburg]

How is it ‘fleecing’? That signifies the tourist has no option nor was aware of the cost...neither of which will generally be true. They will have made a conscious decision to visit Edinburgh and understood the cost of accommodation during the time they choose to visit.

You’ve been given multiple examples of dynamic pricing across many industries (including airlines who will carry lots of tourists!) that effect the people that use that service.

Are you saying that only hotels are ‘fleecing’ people if those people are classed as tourists and the multiple other businesses who have dynamic pricing are not ‘fleecing’ their patrons simply because they might not immediately be classified as a tourist?

I argued earlier in the thread that this is not the right time for a tourist tax,over half our tourism comes from the EU and if the ever increasingly likely hard Brexit happens then visiting the UK will not only become more expensive but also more cumbersome.

I can see the attraction of what the benefits might bring the city but I'd be concerned about the message it sends out to those you mention who make a conscious decision to visit the toun, they'll way up the pro and cons of visiting Edinburgh as opposed to say Salzburg, Salzburg, Vienna and other EU cities might also have tourist taxes but are generally less expensive and easier to get to, Brexit will also sway the conscious decisions of many and a tourist tax will only make a bad situation worse.

[CropleyWasGod]

I argued earlier in the thread that this is not the right time for a tourist tax,over half our tourism comes from the EU and if the ever increasingly likely hard Brexit happens then visiting the UK will not only become more expensive but also more cumbersome.

I can see the attraction of what the benefits might bring the city but I'd be concerned about the message it sends out to those you mention who make a conscious decision to visit the toun, they'll way up the pro and cons of visiting Edinburgh as opposed to say Salzburg, Salzburg, Vienna and other EU cities might also have tourist taxes but are generally less expensive and easier to get to, Brexit will also sway the conscious decisions of many and a tourist tax will only make a bad situation worse.Bear in mind that the £ will likely tumble again, making the UK cheaper than other European countries

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[RyeSloan]

I argued earlier in the thread that this is not the right time for a tourist tax,over half our tourism comes from the EU and if the ever increasingly likely hard Brexit happens then visiting the UK will not only become more expensive but also more cumbersome.

I can see the attraction of what the benefits might bring the city but I'd be concerned about the message it sends out to those you mention who make a conscious decision to visit the toun, they'll way up the pro and cons of visiting Edinburgh as opposed to say Salzburg, Salzburg, Vienna and other EU cities might also have tourist taxes but are generally less expensive and easier to get to, Brexit will also sway the conscious decisions of many and a tourist tax will only make a bad situation worse.

I don’t think the value is anywhere near enough to change any decision.

And honestly even if it does then it will hardly make a dent as the visitor numbers to Edinburgh are clearly growing massively over the medium term and must be substantially up in the last few years.

[RyeSloan]

Bear in mind that the £ will likely tumble again, making the UK cheaper than other European countries

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Naw they will all be off to Turkey...now there’s a currency devaluation for you!

[Scouse Hibee]

I've just seen a survey that claims Edinburgh was at 86% occupancy over 2017.

Taking into account the smaller places that close in quiet times, and the quiet times themselves (admittedly, these are rare in Edinburgh nowadays), that suggests to me that for a large part of the year, 100% is more or less the norm.

Which just proves that such surveys really really are fictional bollox with very little fact attached.

[CropleyWasGod]

Which just proves that such surveys really really are fictional bollox with very little fact attached.

In what way?

https://www.insider.co.uk/news/scottish-hotels-edinburgh-figures-bdo-12399441

[Scouse Hibee]

In what way?

https://www.insider.co.uk/news/scottish-hotels-edinburgh-figures-bdo-12399441

Another good news story, to suggest near100% occupancy is laughable. In my experience one of the major city hotels occupancy is indicative of the others. It hasn’t so they haven’t is the real story. Numbers are up but not to the scale that story suggests. Like every other media report, a pinch of salt is required. Just as speculative as players salaries.

[CropleyWasGod]

Another good news story, to suggest near100% occupancy is laughable. In my experience one of the major city hotels occupancy is indicative of the others. It hasn’t so they haven’t is the real story. Numbers are up but not to the scale that story suggests. Like every other media report, a pinch of salt is required. Just as speculative as players salaries.

It's not as speculative as the salaries one, which was taken from unreliable sources. This one has been complied by BDO, so there is at least some credence to it. (no s******ing at the back there).

AFAIK, hotels are required to make a return of statistics on an annual basis. How many actually do, and whether that skews these statistics, we can't know.

[Scouse Hibee]

It's not as speculative as the salaries one, which was taken from unreliable sources. This one has been complied by BDO, so there is at least some credence to it. (no s******ing at the back there).

AFAIK, hotels are required to make a return of statistics on an annual basis. How many actually do, and whether that skews these statistics, we can't know.

I base my remarks on 10 years spent at the Caley, we used to laugh at management meetings at some of the stats supposedly representing occupancy across the city.

[CropleyWasGod]

I base my remarks on 10 years spent at the Caley, we used to laugh at management meetings at some of the stats supposedly representing occupancy across the city.Cool.

Any thoughts on what you think is the actual average nowadays?

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[Scouse Hibee]

Cool.

Any thoughts on what you think is the actual average nowadays?

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Left four years ago so well out of the loop regarding occupancy. I do hear from old colleagues though that money has never been tighter since the new owners. Trying to get a P.O. authorised for anything other than the norm is damn near impossible. Hardly surprising though as the whole operation is it mutton dressed as lamb. 95/100% occupancy and the infrastructure for heating/air con/ hot water can’t cope and never has done.

[Hibrandenburg]

Bear in mind that the £ will likely tumble again, making the UK cheaper than other European countries

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I'm not sure it's quite as simple as that CWG, any extra savings made on a fall in the pound's value would be quickly eaten into by things like higher travel costs, food expenses and mobile phone and data charges. I seem to recall a survey done just after the referendum by travelzoo that said 1/3 of EU tourists would be less inclined to visit the UK after Brexit. Subjectively my best mate's Mrs is the uber anglophile and visits the UK at least twice a year, she insists that there has been a marked change in attitude towards tourists from the average Joe. Now imaginary or not it's an attitude that I'm hearing more and more and one that will be hard to change.

[Speedy]

A loss? How do you know? Quieter times yes, less profits yes, but I'm sure they make enough to tick over, then BOOM, hammer the tourist time!

If the local Tesco or Sainsbury's did the same during the festival people would be up in arms.

What do you mean how do I know? :greengrin How do you know?

This place is a funny place at times.

[Speedy]

I'll hold my hands up to the accusation that I can't back up the logistics of a windfall tax. However I submit your argument that other businesses do the same as hotels re pricing during busy periods doesn't hold water. Evidence for the outrageous pricing structure can clearly be seen on sites like booking.com. Where is the evidence for other businesses clearly and deliberately raising prices hugely during busy times?

Lots of restaurants run standing offers 10 months of the year (excluding August & December).

Uber is also significantly more expensive during the Fringe.