Last Night of the Proms

[Colr]

More EU flags than Union Jacks in the audience at the Albert Hall tonight!!

Bloody metropolitan elite!!

[Frazerbob]

Saltires confiscated at the Glasgow Green event

[Colr]

Saltires confiscated at the Glasgow Green event

Bizarre thing to do!

[ronaldo7]

Bizarre thing to do!

Orders from above.

[The Green Goblin]

Saltires confiscated at the Glasgow Green event

Just saltires though: ujs were allowed in.

[Tornadoes70]

Post the Belgium humiliation would anyone wish to currently fly the saltire? The snp have hijacked the saltire just like the bnp hijacked the St George one. The saltire has become similar to the St George one an utter embarrassment.

Nationalism is one and the same a total despot tyranny one to be defeated.

Mon Scottish Labour

[IGRIGI]

Post the Belgium humiliation would anyone wish to currently fly the saltire? The snp have hijacked the saltire just like the bnp hijacked the St George one. The saltire has become similar to the St George one an utter embarrassment.

Nationalism is one and the same a total despot tyranny one to be defeated.

Mon Scottish Labour

But Union Flag waving Rule Britannia nationalism is fine?

This is my main problem with Scottish Labour's supposed dislike of nationalism, It's horrid if it stops at Gretna but the best thing since sliced bread if it stops at Dover instead.

[Frazerbob]

Post the Belgium humiliation would anyone wish to currently fly the saltire? The snp have hijacked the saltire just like the bnp hijacked the St George one. The saltire has become similar to the St George one an utter embarrassment.

Nationalism is one and the same a total despot tyranny one to be defeated.

Mon Scottish Labour

Good grief

[weecounty hibby]

But Union Flag waving Rule Britannia nationalism is fine?

This is my main problem with Scottish Labour's supposed dislike of nationalism, It's horrid if it stops at Gretna but the best thing since sliced bread if it stops at Dover instead.

The thing is, last night of the proms isn't just celebrating British/English nationalism but imperialism. A time where Britain/England persecuted indigenous peoples and pillaged natural resources of half the world. But the Joker you quoted is ok with that it appears as long as no one waves a saltire.

[heretoday]

Yawn.......

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Post the Belgium humiliation would anyone wish to currently fly the saltire? The snp have hijacked the saltire just like the bnp hijacked the St George one. The saltire has become similar to the St George one an utter embarrassment.

Nationalism is one and the same a total despot tyranny one to be defeated.

Mon Scottish Labour

What the hell are you talking about man?

[Peevemor]

What the hell are you talking about man?Haha.

The proms were started to bring music to the masses, with cheap tickets and even free outdoor concerts on offer.

OK there's an element of Rule Brittania twatiness to it, but the basic premise is very good.

[Colr]

Orders from above.

Looking at some of the footage on twitter there were far more EU flags than the Brexit Broadcasting Company footage was showing as well.

[Colr]

The thing is, last night of the proms isn't just celebrating British/English nationalism but imperialism. A time where Britain/England persecuted indigenous peoples and pillaged natural resources of half the world. But the Joker you quoted is ok with that it appears as long as no one waves a saltire.

What tosh.

[Colr]

Haha.

The proms were started to bring music to the masses, with cheap tickets and even free outdoor concerts on offer.

OK there's an element of Rule Brittania twatiness to it, but the basic premise is very good.

Yup

[weecounty hibby]

What tosh.

Good come back. Master debater or something like that! I know what the proms are all about, the event is a long one and is a good one but the last night is pure imperialist triumphalism

[Mibbes Aye]

Good come back. Master debater or something like that! I know what the proms are all about, the event is a long one and is a good one but the last night is pure imperialist triumphalism

It really isn’t and the Empire ceased to exist decades ago.

I think some folk see predominantly English folk waving a Union flag and their resentment can’t help but burst out.

[weecounty hibby]

No resentment on my part at all. I don't now and never have resented England or the English. This came about as apparently saltires were being confiscated in Glasgow and one poster started talking about how bad nationalism was. But it appears only Scottish nationalism. British or English seems to be ok but not Scottish, from him at least
And your right the empire did dear to exist decades ago, but try telling that to the Boris Johnsons of this world!!

[RyeSloan]

Saltires confiscated at the Glasgow Green event

On what grounds were they being confiscated and who by?

[Bristolhibby]

Post the Belgium humiliation would anyone wish to currently fly the saltire? The snp have hijacked the saltire just like the bnp hijacked the St George one. The saltire has become similar to the St George one an utter embarrassment.

Nationalism is one and the same a total despot tyranny one to be defeated.

Mon Scottish Labour

Hahahaha. What pish

[Frazerbob]

Looking at some of the footage on twitter there were far more EU flags than the Brexit Broadcasting Company footage was showing as well.

EU flags were distributed by the members of the orchestra to highlight the problems orchestras and musicians will face post Brexit.

[Frazerbob]

On what grounds were they being confiscated and who by?

No idea and the stewards.

[Smartie]

EU flags were distributed by the members of the orchestra to highlight the problems orchestras and musicians will face post Brexit.

Hee hee.

I love that.

[RyeSloan]

No idea and the stewards.

Hmm how strange. Would love to know what their reasoning was and just what entry criteria they were using to justify said actions.

[ronaldo7]

It really isn’t and the Empire ceased to exist decades ago.

I think some folk see predominantly English folk waving a Union flag and their resentment can’t help but burst out.

We're on Empire 2 now. Do try and keep up, and do you know how that new Royal yacht is coming along. 😂

[Mibbes Aye]

We're on Empire 2 now. Do try and keep up, and do you know how that new Royal yacht is coming along. 😂

Good post. Can you post in your own words what your comment about Empire 2 means. Your own words, mind.

[ronaldo7]

Good post. Can you post in your own words what your comment about Empire 2 means. Your own words, mind.

Your getting a bit crotchety mate. Jeremy has got to you.

It was a ***** joke. Not a very good one though.

Take a chill, and wrap yourself in the jack to take your mind off it.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Your getting a bit crotchety mate. Jeremy has got to you.

It was a ***** joke. Not a very good one though.

Take a chill, and wrap yourself in the jack to take your mind off it.

That would be a no then?! 🤣

[johnbc70]

https://twitter.com/BBCScotComms/status/1038712724459540481?s=19

No saltires were banned, any flag on a pole was banned. But let's not let the facts get in the way again.

[Bristolhibby]

https://twitter.com/BBCScotComms/status/1038712724459540481?s=19

No saltires were banned, any flag on a pole was banned. But let's not let the facts get in the way again.

Thought that sounded jot right.

BTW, flag on a pole, Health and Safety, purleese.

J

[CropleyWasGod]

So Poles were banned?

Freedom of movement my arse.

[JimBHibees]

Saltires confiscated at the Glasgow Green event

Really?

[JimBHibees]

Post the Belgium humiliation would anyone wish to currently fly the saltire? The snp have hijacked the saltire just like the bnp hijacked the St George one. The saltire has become similar to the St George one an utter embarrassment.

Nationalism is one and the same a total despot tyranny one to be defeated.

Mon Scottish Labour

That really is such a crock on so many levels. Shocking comparison.

[ronaldo7]

That would be a no then?! 🤣

Sharp as a tack as usual. That'll be the Uni paying off eh.:faf:

[ronaldo7]

https://twitter.com/BBCScotComms/status/1038712724459540481?s=19

No saltires were banned, any flag on a pole was banned. But let's not let the facts get in the way again.

21220

:rolleyes:

[Sergio sledge]

21220

:rolleyes:

I was at a concert a couple of weeks ago where you weren't allowed to take your own food or drinks in and you were meant to only have an A4 size bag. I managed to get in with a large backpack, some bottles of water and sandwiches.

[Smartie]

I was at a concert a couple of weeks ago where you weren't allowed to take your own food or drinks in and you were meant to only have an A4 size bag. I managed to get in with a large backpack, some bottles of water and sandwiches.

I don't suppose you attached a muckle great flag to your contraband items though?

[johnbc70]

21220

:rolleyes:

Clearly they sneaked in the night before and buried them in the ground to then dig them up as the music started.

[Sergio sledge]

I don't suppose you attached a muckle great flag to your contraband items though?

All the security guards cared about was whether I had a saltire stuffed in my bag or not.... And that was at Runrig! :greengrin

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Sharp as a tack as usual. That'll be the Uni paying off eh.:faf:

Which one? 😉

[ronaldo7]

Which one? 😉

How many did you have to go to before you found one that would accept you? 😧

[ronaldo7]

Clearly they sneaked in the night before and buried them in the ground to then dig them up as the music started.

Aye, let's not let the facts get in the way again. 😲

[Curried]

There seem to be a rather large number of poles in this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GnC6jW4va0

[Mibbes Aye]

Aye, let's not let the facts get in the way again. 😲

I’m out the country just now so haven’t read or heard much coverage, but from what I have gathered, this is made-up pish isn’t it?

It’s a sad reflection on the state we are in when Sandra White (and no, I’d never heard of her either) can grab a fake headline by being appalled by made-up news.

Still, fictional resentment is better than no resentment at all. Otherwise what do the Nats do to keep the membership up?

[johnbc70]

Aye, let's not let the facts get in the way again. 😲

There was also pictures of saltires on poles as well.

Indy2 debate is going to be such high quality when so many people get their knickers in a twist about things like this, forget about important things like the economy or what currency we use, let's focus on flags at the proms.

[ronaldo7]

There was also pictures of saltires on poles as well.

Indy2 debate is going to be such high quality when so many people get their knickers in a twist about things like this, forget about important things like the economy or what currency we use, let's focus on flags at the proms.

You told us earlier, "any flag on a pole was banned", and yet, video evidence clearly shows, the hibee piro team were hard at work. 💪

[RyeSloan]

You told us earlier, "any flag on a pole was banned", and yet, video evidence clearly shows, the hibee piro team were hard at work. [emoji123]

I’m unclear as to your point. Are you saying that there was indeed a focussed effort to ban / confiscate saltires at the Glasgow proms?

Or are you merely pointing out that some flags on poles may have made it past the stewards?

[Curried]

I’m unclear as to your point. Are you saying that there was indeed a focussed effort to ban / confiscate saltires at the Glasgow proms?

Or are you merely pointing out that some flags on poles may have made it past the stewards?

This bloke thinks your first primise is correct:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbuprs067NM

[johnbc70]

You told us earlier, "any flag on a pole was banned", and yet, video evidence clearly shows, the hibee piro team were hard at work. 💪

I blame the stewards who missed them, clearly in on the plot from the BBC. Do we know what firm was employed as stewards, obviously some kind of Tory connection there as well. Its outrageous.

[Bristolhibby]

I’m out the country just now so haven’t read or heard much coverage, but from what I have gathered, this is made-up pish isn’t it?

It’s a sad reflection on the state we are in when Sandra White (and no, I’d never heard of her either) can grab a fake headline by being appalled by made-up news.

Still, fictional resentment is better than no resentment at all. Otherwise what do the Nats do to keep the membership up?

Offer hope

[ronaldo7]

I’m out the country just now so haven’t read or heard much coverage, but from what I have gathered, this is made-up pish isn’t it?

It’s a sad reflection on the state we are in when Sandra White (and no, I’d never heard of her either) can grab a fake headline by being appalled by made-up news.

Still, fictional resentment is better than no resentment at all. Otherwise what do the Nats do to keep the membership up?

You're out the country,(I thought you didn't do countries) don't have a clue what's going on, but reference Sandra white.

Brit nats hate a flag debate. 😂

[weecounty hibby]

Offer hope
👍👍👍

[Mibbes Aye]

This bloke thinks your first primise is correct:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbuprs067NM


You're out the country,(I thought you didn't do countries) don't have a clue what's going on, but reference Sandra white.

Brit nats hate a flag debate. 😂

I’ve got a clue, don’t you worry. I’ll keep asking the questions you’re incapable of answering :wink:

[Mibbes Aye]

Offer hope

Offer resentment and a made-up sense of grievance?

[Mibbes Aye]

You're out the country,(I thought you didn't do countries) don't have a clue what's going on, but reference Sandra white.

Brit nats hate a flag debate. 😂

Good post. You make threads like this worthwhile.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Post the Belgium humiliation would anyone wish to currently fly the saltire? The snp have hijacked the saltire just like the bnp hijacked the St George one. The saltire has become similar to the St George one an utter embarrassment.

Nationalism is one and the same a total despot tyranny one to be defeated.

Mon Scottish Labour

Jeezo. I don't have any problem with folk who are anti independence, that's their choice though obviously I would like and try to encourage them to think differently. But attempts like this to paint the Scottish independence movement as something it isn't .. IE a fascist National socialist type movement, is a bloody insult to me and the overwhelming majority of Scottish nationalists or independence supporters who are as far removed from that way of thinking as its possible to be.

I invite you now to trawl through my posts on this forum or the Holy ground and highlight any of my comments or opinions which would give you cause to think I would support any political party or movement which stands for tyranny or despotism. If you can come up with a single one, quote it on this thread and get more than two people to agree with you I will donate £100 to the charity of your choice.

People like you who see or hear the words Scottish 'nationalism' or Scottish 'nationalist' and lazily and with a deliberate blind eye to the mountain of evidence to the contrary lump us all in with fascist or tyrannical nationalist movements are a blight on proper and reasoned debate on this issue and I would like to think that reasoned and intelligent folk on both sides of the debate would agree with me.

I presume the correlation you have so inaccurately drawn between what happened to the St George's flag and the independence movements use of the Saltire is based on the same banal thinking. The Scottish independence movement exists to promote and bring about a situation where Scotland becomes an independent sovereign state in its own right under the rule of law and with all the rights, responsibilities and privileges of a fully fledged independent democratic state. What symbol would you suggest we use other than the flag of our own country to promote these values?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Jeezo. I don't have any problem with folk who are anti independence, that's their choice though obviously I would like and try to encourage them to think differently. But attempts like this to paint the Scottish independence movement as something it isn't .. IE a fascist National socialist type movement, is a bloody insult to me and the overwhelming majority of Scottish nationalists or independence supporters who are as far removed from that way of thinking as its possible to be.

I invite you now to trawl through my posts on this forum or the Holy ground and highlight any of my comments or opinions which would give you cause to think I would support any political party or movement which stands for tyranny or despotism. If you can come up with a single one, quote it on this thread and get more than two people to agree with you I will donate £100 to the charity of your choice.

People like you who see or hear the words Scottish 'nationalism' or Scottish 'nationalist' and lazily and with a deliberate blind eye to the mountain of evidence to the contrary lump us all in with fascist or tyrannical nationalist movements are a blight on proper and reasoned debate on this issue and I would like to think that reasoned and intelligent folk on both sides of the debate would agree with me.

I presume the correlation you have so inaccurately drawn between what happened to the St George's flag and the independence movements use of the Saltire is based on the same banal thinking. The Scottish independence movement exists to promote and bring about a situation where Scotland becomes an independent sovereign state in its own right under the rule of law and with all the rights, responsibilities and privileges of a fully fledged independent democratic state. What symbol would you suggest we use other than the flag of our own country to promote these values?

Why even bother - nobody genuinely thinks that Scottish nationalism is like that, or that it is illegitimate or malign.

Of course there are a few Robbie the pict types, but they are hardly goose-stepping fascists. There is nothing wrong with nationalism imo if it means pride in your country etc? It only becomes malign when it becomes chauvinistic.

Some posters are trolls imo.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Why even bother - nobody genuinely thinks that Scottish nationalism is like that, or that it is illegitimate or malign.

Of course there are a few Robbie the pict types, but they are hardly goose-stepping fascists. There is nothing wrong with nationalism imo if it means pride in your country etc? It only becomes malign when it becomes chauvinistic.

Some posters are trolls imo.

As no doubt the guy I replied to is mate. Usually I would ignore folk like him, but I have seen the opinion he espouses repeated by folk who actually do want to be taken seriously as politicians or social commentators.

As you allude to, there's no doubt that there is a minority in the independence movement who are driven by anti English sentiment or because they have watched Braveheart …. I have about as much time for them as I do for folk like him. For me and I would say 90% of folk in the independence movement its about restoring Scotland to its place as a country in its own right … something that IMO was utterly betrayed in the act of union.

I don't care if someone knows all the words to flower of Scotland and can point to their family tartan in a book …. If they think those things mean they belong to a proper country they are deluding themselves, they may well be 'proud Scots' but for me I fail to see any 'pride' in leaving your country in a situation where it is little better than the biggest region of another country with no seat at the table of the family of 'proper' nations. A situation which means the ideals, hopes, wishes and social outlook of its 5 million people will always be subservient to the ideals, hopes, wishes and social outlook of a far bigger 'partner'

That's why Scotland isn't a proper country … its about as authentic as a state as those castles in Disney theme parks are authentic castles and that will always be the case until we finally take responsibility for all the functions and responsibilities of a proper nation state.

As for his comments about the Saltire. In a way I sort of agree with him, but not for the reasons he and the unionist camp give. Perhaps it is time the independence movement came up with a new flag to rally to, one that they want to see as the flag of a future independent Scotland, which has no religious background and has never been part of another country's flag.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

As no doubt the guy I replied to is mate. Usually I would ignore folk like him, but I have seen the opinion he espouses repeated by folk who actually do want to be taken seriously as politicians or social commentators.

As you allude to, there's no doubt that there is a minority in the independence movement who are driven by anti English sentiment or because they have watched Braveheart …. I have about as much time for them as I do for folk like him. For me and I would say 90% of folk in the independence movement its about restoring Scotland to its place as a country in its own right … something that IMO was utterly betrayed in the act of union.

I don't care if someone knows all the words to flower of Scotland and can point to their family tartan in a book …. If they think those things mean they belong to a proper country they are deluding themselves, they may well be 'proud Scots' but for me I fail to see any 'pride' in leaving your country in a situation where it is little better than the biggest region of another country with no seat at the table of the family of 'proper' nations. A situation which means the ideals, hopes, wishes and social outlook of its 5 million people will always be subservient to the ideals, hopes, wishes and social outlook of a far bigger 'partner'

That's why Scotland isn't a proper country … its about as authentic as a state as those castles in Disney theme parks are authentic castles and that will always be the case until we finally take responsibility for all the functions and responsibilities of a proper nation state.

As for his comments about the Saltire. In a way I sort of agree with him, but not for the reasons he and the unionist camp give. Perhaps it is time the independence movement came up with a new flag to rally to, one that they want to see as the flag of a future independent Scotland, which has no religious background and has never been part of another country's flag.

A new flag... CONTROVERSIAL!

I'm actually not a big fan of the st Andrews cross, but that's more to do with my petty aversion to anything remotely huns blue.

Always preferred the lion rampant, but realise that is not to everyone's taste.

Your points about taking responsibility are well made, and I kind of agree with you about the 'not a real country' thing - it used to make me furious, but I gradually stopped caring, which probably explains my ambivalence to independence now!

[ronaldo7]

I’ve got a clue, don’t you worry. I’ll keep asking the questions you’re incapable of answering :wink:

You've got nothing left but Tory tropes. Grievance politics, you scream, whilst all around us, Scotland suffers. When we're independent, you'll be able to transfer to your real church, the church of Maggie Thatcher.

Enjoy. 😊

#ermineandrobes

[1875godsgift]

Post the Belgium humiliation would anyone wish to currently fly the saltire? The snp have hijacked the saltire just like the bnp hijacked the St George one. The saltire has become similar to the St George one an utter embarrassment.

Nationalism is one and the same a total despot tyranny one to be defeated.

Mon Scottish Labour


So because we were beaten by a better football team we should be embarrassed to fly our national flag?!

And if Nationalism is one and the same a total despot tyranny one to be defeated then surely your Alan Partridge-esque sign off should read:

Mon Universal Labour?

[Mibbes Aye]

You've got nothing left but Tory tropes. Grievance politics, you scream, whilst all around us, Scotland suffers. When we're independent, you'll be able to transfer to your real church, the church of Maggie Thatcher.

Enjoy. 😊

#ermineandrobes

Tory tropes, really?

Whenever have I posted anything vaguely Thatcherite?

You cant reallly answer any serious question put to you can you?

Still, a hyperlink or a hashtag suffices in Natland.

[Mibbes Aye]

Your getting a bit crotchety mate. Jeremy has got to you.

It was a ***** joke. Not a very good one though.

Take a chill, and wrap yourself in the jack to take your mind off it.

What was the joke btw? Never even got the Empire 2 comment. Take your point it wasn’t a good joke but would appreciate you explaining it. Thanks in advance :aok:

[pollution]

You've got nothing left but Tory tropes. Grievance politics, you scream, whilst all around us, Scotland suffers. When we're independent, you'll be able to transfer to your real church, the church of Maggie Thatcher.

Enjoy. 😊

#ermineandrobes


God bless Margaret Thatcher

[lord bunberry]

As no doubt the guy I replied to is mate. Usually I would ignore folk like him, but I have seen the opinion he espouses repeated by folk who actually do want to be taken seriously as politicians or social commentators.

As you allude to, there's no doubt that there is a minority in the independence movement who are driven by anti English sentiment or because they have watched Braveheart …. I have about as much time for them as I do for folk like him. For me and I would say 90% of folk in the independence movement its about restoring Scotland to its place as a country in its own right … something that IMO was utterly betrayed in the act of union.

I don't care if someone knows all the words to flower of Scotland and can point to their family tartan in a book …. If they think those things mean they belong to a proper country they are deluding themselves, they may well be 'proud Scots' but for me I fail to see any 'pride' in leaving your country in a situation where it is little better than the biggest region of another country with no seat at the table of the family of 'proper' nations. A situation which means the ideals, hopes, wishes and social outlook of its 5 million people will always be subservient to the ideals, hopes, wishes and social outlook of a far bigger 'partner'

That's why Scotland isn't a proper country … its about as authentic as a state as those castles in Disney theme parks are authentic castles and that will always be the case until we finally take responsibility for all the functions and responsibilities of a proper nation state.

As for his comments about the Saltire. In a way I sort of agree with him, but not for the reasons he and the unionist camp give. Perhaps it is time the independence movement came up with a new flag to rally to, one that they want to see as the flag of a future independent Scotland, which has no religious background and has never been part of another country's flag.
Put him on ignore mate. Eventually he’ll just be talking to himself.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Put him on ignore mate. Eventually he’ll just be talking to himself.

Why deprive yourself of the entertainment? :-)

[ronaldo7]

Tory tropes, really?

Whenever have I posted anything vaguely Thatcherite?

You cant reallly answer any serious question put to you can you?

Still, a hyperlink or a hashtag suffices in Natland.

Aye, the Thatcher link was rather harsh on you, so I'll swap her for Blair and brown. Not much difference really. 😊

[Mibbes Aye]

Aye, the Thatcher link was rather harsh on you, so I'll swap her for Blair and brown. Not much difference really. ��

Thatcher, loathesome as her policies were, changed the narrative in the UK along with Keith Joseph et al.

Blair and Brown worked within that changed narrative but to suggest there wasn’t much difference is idiotic.

Brown especially, the deal to let Blair replace Smith, was basically his ploy to have essentially unfettered control over domestic policy.

That started with a tactical move to stick to Tory spending plans to prevent accusations that Labour was untrustworthy on public finances. After those first few years the spending taps turned on and by gosh, the money was flowing. If you worked in the public sector around 2000 onwards, there was funding to support all manners of progressive social policy.

Not strictly all down to Brown, others were involved too, but there was a massive amount of what was essentially social engineering. Child tax credits, pension credits, SureStart, the minimum wage etc etc. All stuff to try and reconfigure the economy and workforce by putting more money into the pockets of the poorer, vulnerable and marginalised. The trick was to make it happen without it seeming a threat to the markets.

Making out that wasn’t different from Thatcherism is laughable but betrays that you don’t really have any grasp of social policy. Sorry, it’s harsh but it’s true.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I'm confused... were saltires banned or not?

[Mibbes Aye]

I'm confused... were saltires banned or not?

My money is no, it’s a load of pish.

i get that flagpoles might be banned and I get that some flagpoles attached to Union flags may have got in, but that’s different from saltires being banned and I think the BBC said so.

Still, the flames of grievance will die out if not continually stoked........

[johnbc70]

I'm confused... were saltires banned or not?

Fake news!

[ronaldo7]

I'm confused... were saltires banned or not?

People I've spoken with were told they were not allowed in, they then spoke with the supervisor who confirmed it.

Unionists all over this thread trying to say it was grievance stoking, is rather sad.

Some salatires made it in though. 🎶➰

[ronaldo7]

Thatcher, loathesome as her policies were, changed the narrative in the UK along with Keith Joseph et al.

Blair and Brown worked within that changed narrative but to suggest there wasn’t much difference is idiotic.

Brown especially, the deal to let Blair replace Smith, was basically his ploy to have essentially unfettered control over domestic policy.

That started with a tactical move to stick to Tory spending plans to prevent accusations that Labour was untrustworthy on public finances. After those first few years the spending taps turned on and by gosh, the money was flowing. If you worked in the public sector around 2000 onwards, there was funding to support all manners of progressive social policy.

Not strictly all down to Brown, others were involved too, but there was a massive amount of what was essentially social engineering. Child tax credits, pension credits, SureStart, the minimum wage etc etc. All stuff to try and reconfigure the economy and workforce by putting more money into the pockets of the poorer, vulnerable and marginalised. The trick was to make it happen without it seeming a threat to the markets.

Making out that wasn’t different from Thatcherism is laughable but betrays that you don’t really have any grasp of social policy. Sorry, it’s harsh but it’s true.

And when introducing some laudable policies, they also introduced Atos.

Living wage, peanuts, which should have been a real living wage.

Sold the gold at its lowest ebb.

Soft touch regulation on the banking authorities which allowed them to ride roughshod over people, and businesses.

Then of course, Gordon got caught slagging off a member of the public, all of course after both he and Blair, sexed up a dossier to take us into an illegal war.

If that's your socialism, (champagne style) you can ram it.

[Pretty Boy]

Grown up politics in a progressive, forward thinking and modern Scotland eh?

[johnbc70]

People I've spoken with were told they were not allowed in, they then spoke with the supervisor who confirmed it.

Unionists all over this thread trying to say it was grievance stoking, is rather sad.

Some salatires made it in though. 🎶➰

So you really do believe that the BBC and the security guards all came together and agreed to ban the saltire, while at the same time agreeing Union Jack's are fine? You believe someone at the BBC agreed on this course of action, briefed the security team who then carried out these specific instructions where possible?

[johnbc70]

Grown up politics in a progrrssive, forward thinking and modern Scotland eh?

Indeed, I know I have been guilty of stoking the flames, but only to show how ridiculous this is.

Forget about Growth Commissions (how is that going by the way) and things like what currency we will have and who will be our central bank, no let's focus on fake news that saltires were banned from a BBC event.

[ronaldo7]

Grown up politics in a progressive, forward thinking and modern Scotland eh?

People should be able to carry/ wave their national flag in their own country shouldn't they?

[ronaldo7]

So you really do believe that the BBC and the security guards all came together and agreed to ban the saltire, while at the same time agreeing Union Jack's are fine? You believe someone at the BBC agreed on this course of action, briefed the security team who then carried out these specific instructions where possible?

I wasn't there, but I believe the information given to me by someone who was. You on the other hand believe the bbc. Your choice.

[Pretty Boy]

People should be able to carry/ wave their national flag in their own country shouldn't they?

Yes.

That point was somewhat lost in all the 'red Tory' and 'SNPbaaad' jibes that are an inevitable part of any discussion that has even the flimsiest link to political content in Scotland now.

It's pitiful and painful stuff and trivialises a hugely important topic. The worst part is that it's obvious some people, on here and elsewhere, are intelligent enough to have an adult conversation about things but get dragged down to the point scoring gutter.

[ronaldo7]

Yes.

That point was somewhat lost in all the 'red Tory' and 'SNPbaaad' jibes that are an inevitable part of any discussion that has even the flimsiest link to political content in Scotland now.

It's pitiful and painful stuff and trivialises a hugely important topic. The worst part is that it's obvious some people, on here and elsewhere, are intelligent enough to have an adult conversation about things but get dragged down to the point scoring gutter.

Nice to hear it's ok to fly our flag in public. 👍 some on here hate the thought of it, and mock others who do.

Theirs even some asking how people are spending their own money, as if it's any of their business.

Sometimes when you're dragged to the gutter, it's better to kick out and fight for what you believe in, rather than sit silent and be cowed.

[johnbc70]

I wasn't there, but I believe the information given to me by someone who was. You on the other hand believe the bbc. Your choice.

I believe there is an extremely high probability that there was never any instructions to ban saltires while at the same time allowing Union Jacks into the event. I also believe that for this to be done in a deliberate manner in some kind of covert way by the BBC and all the stewards and security guards without anyone reporting this is also highly unlikely.

But yes there is a small chance they were all in on it and all the BBC staff, Stewards and Security staff were all in on it and happy to comply.

They are all against you. Wonder if MI5 were involved?

[ronaldo7]

I believe there is an extremely high probability that there was never any instructions to ban saltires while at the same time allowing Union Jacks into the event. I also believe that for this to be done in a deliberate manner in some kind of covert way by the BBC and all the stewards and security guards without anyone reporting this is also highly unlikely.

But yes there is a small chance they were all in on it and all the BBC staff, Stewards and Security staff were all in on it and happy to comply.

They are all against you. Wonder if MI5 were involved?

Partronising much.

You continue to believe all you read in the papers, and I'll believe the evidence given to me by someone who was actually there.

Have a nice day, I'm off to see the Hibs.

[RyeSloan]

I wasn't there, but I believe the information given to me by someone who was. You on the other hand believe the bbc. Your choice.

Or indeed you could just judge for yourself if saltires were banned or not:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180915/35e17a076f5720609e7a7cabace2f8e4.jpg

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Or indeed you could just judge for yourself if saltires were banned or not:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180915/35e17a076f5720609e7a7cabace2f8e4.jpg

Ok, so that photo would suggest not.

[Curried]

Ok, so that photo would suggest not.

The photo presented doesn’t confirm that certain flags were banned per se, it only shows that certain flags were present.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The photo presented doesn’t confirm that certain flags were banned per se, it only shows that certain flags were present.

True. But those confirmed as present were those supposedly banned!

[Curried]

True. But those confirmed as present were those supposedly banned!

Yes. You’re banned from taking alcohol into Easter Road, but lots of people manage to do it.

[marinello59]

Yes. You’re banned from taking alcohol into Easter Road, but lots of people manage to do it.

They don’t sell alcohol inside Easter Road. They were selling the ‘banned’ Saltires inside the venue as confirmed by Sandra White herself in response to a tweet. It’s all been a rather odd affair. A mountain out of a molehill perhaps?

[Curried]

They don’t sell alcohol inside Easter Road. They were selling the ‘banned’ Saltires inside the venue as confirmed by Sandra White herself in response to a tweet. It’s all been a rather odd affair. A mountain out of a molehill perhaps?

You might want to check that with hospitality!

[marinello59]

You might want to check that with hospitality!

Lowlifes like me never get near hospitality. :greengrin
I’m not so sure they get to drink inside the actual stadium now unless they are serving them booze in the posh seats now .

[Curried]

Lowlifes like me never get near hospitality. :greengrin
I’m not so sure they get to drink inside the actual stadium now unless they are serving them booze in the posh seats now .

Pretty much the same for me.......Enjoy the game :-)

[Mibbes Aye]

And when introducing some laudable policies, they also introduced Atos.

Living wage, peanuts, which should have been a real living wage.

Sold the gold at its lowest ebb.

Soft touch regulation on the banking authorities which allowed them to ride roughshod over people, and businesses.

Then of course, Gordon got caught slagging off a member of the public, all of course after both he and Blair, sexed up a dossier to take us into an illegal war.

If that's your socialism, (champagne style) you can ram it.

But the point is, they didn’t practice Thatcherism, they practiced market-friendly centrism, while jacking up public spending massively.

All of Blair’s most senior ministers in the early days had all had key positions around the leadership in the eighties. They hadn’t stopped being ‘tax and spend’, they just learned how to blanket it (and also benefitted from timing - a Tory government that had run its course just as the economic cycle was uplifting).

[ronaldo7]

But the point is, they didn’t practice Thatcherism, they practiced market-friendly centrism, while jacking up public spending massively.

All of Blair’s most senior ministers in the early days had all had key positions around the leadership in the eighties. They hadn’t stopped being ‘tax and spend’, they just learned how to blanket it (and also benefitted from timing - a Tory government that had run it’s course just as the economic cycle was uplifting).

Thatcher lite, or hidden Thatcher, call it what you like, but it certainly wasn't socialism.

Anyway, did you manage to get your jack into the proms?

🇬🇧

[Mibbes Aye]

Thatcher lite, or hidden Thatcher, call it what you like, but it certainly wasn't socialism.

Anyway, did you manage to get your jack into the proms?

🇬🇧

EU flag for me :wink:

[ronaldo7]

EU flag for me :wink:

That would be the one with the 28 independent countries on it represented by stars.

Dirty nats. ⭐

[ronaldo7]

But the point is, they didn’t practice Thatcherism, they practiced market-friendly centrism, while jacking up public spending massively.

All of Blair’s most senior ministers in the early days had all had key positions around the leadership in the eighties. They hadn’t stopped being ‘tax and spend’, they just learned how to blanket it (and also benefitted from timing - a Tory government that had run its course just as the economic cycle was uplifting).

Hoi, labour, what this red flag stuff?

Well, old chap, it's actually market friendly centrism.

😂😂

[Mibbes Aye]

Thatcher lite, or hidden Thatcher, call it what you like, but it certainly wasn't socialism.

Anyway, did you manage to get your jack into the proms?

🇬🇧

Re your first sentence, I think you are right, it wasn’t socialism in the old sense but I also would argue that it was impossible to stand and impossible to win on a prospectus of traditional socialism at that time.

The Party’s reputation for fiscal competence had been hammered but more importantly the world had moved on and the entire narrative had changed. Labour would have stayed out of power in 1997 had it not done the dirty work of reinventing itself, but more importantly being perceived as reinventing itself.

That got them electoral trust which then allowed them to win and introduce policies that the Tories would have demolished them for, earlier. Remember the penny on National Insurance to increase NHS funding? If Labour had pushed that as a policy in the mid-Nineties it would have been perceived as ‘same old Labour’. When they did introduce it, there was barely a murmur, possibly the most positive tax rise in history in fact.

[Mibbes Aye]

That would be the one with the 28 independent countries on it represented by stars.

Dirty nats. ⭐

Thats one way of looking at it.

The EEC essentially came about to bind Germany and France together though. There had been several centuries of devastating war in western and central Europe. There have been several decades of peace since.

I’m pragmatic about it but at the core of the EU project is a belief that we can break down artificial barriers, some of them based on the silliest reasons. That’s worth believing in and maybe even twirling a flag for :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

Re your first sentence, I think you are right, it wasn’t socialism in the old sense but I also would argue that it was impossible to stand and impossible to win on a prospectus of traditional socialism at that time.

The Party’s reputation for fiscal competence had been hammered but more importantly the world had moved on and the entire narrative had changed. Labour would have stayed out of power in 1997 had it not done the dirty work of reinventing itself, but more importantly being perceived as reinventing itself.

That got them electoral trust which then allowed them to win and introduce policies that the Tories would have demolished them for, earlier. Remember the penny on National Insurance to increase NHS funding? If Labour had pushed that as a policy in the mid-Nineties it would have been perceived as ‘same old Labour’. When they did introduce it, there was barely a murmur, possibly the most positive tax rise in history in fact.

Have labour ever had a reputation for fiscal competence?

Seems to me, the Tory press always have them as the tax and spend party.

Take a look at the actual spending of the Tories v labour in the last 30 years, and you'll find a different story to what the media would have you think.

Enjoy your evening.

[Mibbes Aye]

Have labour ever had a reputation for fiscal competence?

Seems to me, the Tory press always have them as the tax and spend party.

Take a look at the actual spending of the Tories v labour in the last 30 years, and you'll find a different story to what the media would have you think.

Enjoy your evening.

Brown and Blair wooed the markets in the mid-nineties, the announcement to stick to Tory spending plans in the run-up to 1997 was a master stroke. It essentially took away the Tories’ biggest weapon.

I think you’re right, there’s no denying that Tory governments haven’t been shy of spending and the whole pattern is one of increase. There was however a big rise after 2001, a lot of it ‘off the books’ and of course a massive jump when the banks got bailed out.

[Mr Grieves]

I'm thinking there wasn't a ban of saltires and maybe an over enthusiastic steward has said naw, like they sometimes do with any other major event. Unfortunately, you've got bawbags from all sides trying to reaffirm their political positions on this thread from something that is fairly minor.

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm thinking there wasn't a ban of saltires and maybe an over enthusiastic steward has said naw, like they sometimes do with any other major event. Unfortunately, you've got bawbags from all sides trying to reaffirm their political positions on this thread from something that is fairly minor.

I don't know what exactly went on but I would think that the debate about people not being allowed to fly their national flag in their own country couldn't be described as "fairly minor".

[Mr Grieves]

I don't know what exactly went on but I would think that the debate about people not being allowed to fly their national flag in their own country couldn't be described as "fairly minor".

I don't think it comes down to anyone not being allowed to fly their national flag. It'll be a few jobsworth steward(s) overstepping the mark like they so often do. But that doesn't mean that some on the other side arent just as bad

[johnbc70]

I don't know what exactly went on but I would think that the debate about people not being allowed to fly their national flag in their own country couldn't be described as "fairly minor".

If it was true I agree, but it was not. Unless you have evidence to the contrary? We have already seen picture evidence of saltires and Union Jacks at the event.

[Tornadoes70]

The problem with the Saltire is that it's currently perceived as being associated with rabid nationalists in the form of the snp. The sooner the snp are put to bed the sooner Scotland can begin the healing process of creating harmony in place of the politics of very nasty divisive nationalism.

[weecounty hibby]

The problem with the Saltire is that it's currently perceived as being associated with rabid nationalists in the form of the snp. The sooner the snp are put to bed the sooner Scotland can begin the healing process of creating harmony in place of the politics of very nasty divisive nationalism.
It's only perceived that way by narrow minded folk with their own agenda. Most right minded people see it as their national flag. Waved at sporting events, music events, stuck on cars, used in company logos, used in sports clubs logos, tattooed on folk of all political persuasions, used by TV companies, even BBC Scotland use it. This debate was started by on of those narrow minded folk who actually said we should be embarrassed by it after losing a football game, if only I could remember who it was??!!

[Moulin Yarns]

The problem with the Saltire is that it's currently perceived as being associated with rabid nationalists in the form of the snp. The sooner the snp are put to bed the sooner Scotland can begin the healing process of creating harmony in place of the politics of very nasty divisive nationalism.

You've seen the the light and dumped Scottish Labour? 😉

[Hibrandenburg]

If it was true I agree, but it was not. Unless you have evidence to the contrary? We have already seen picture evidence of saltires and Union Jacks at the event.

I've no clue as to whether it's true or not, that's why I've not added to the debate. I was merely pointing out that the subject is not trivial.

[johnbc70]

I've no clue as to whether it's true or not, that's why I've not added to the debate. I was merely pointing out that the subject is not trivial.

It's not trivial and I think every one would condemn any event or gathering where Saltires were banned deliberately but Union Jacks allowed. But it never happened so the debate is pretty one sided, if true its a ridiculous thing to do and even on here you will not find many who would support something like that. Just as well it wasn't true and proved to be fake.

[Pretty Boy]

I've no clue as to whether it's true or not, that's why I've not added to the debate. I was merely pointing out that the subject is not trivial.

The irony of course being those who feel most strongly, on both sides, are the ones who have trivialised it and turned it into the usual predictable partisan point scoring.

[murray26]

The problem with the Saltire is that it's currently perceived as being associated with rabid nationalists in the form of the snp. The sooner the snp are put to bed the sooner Scotland can begin the healing process of creating harmony in place of the politics of very nasty divisive nationalism.

This from a rabid British nationalist.. do you see the irony..

[One Day Soon]

Grown up politics in a progressive, forward thinking and modern Scotland eh?

:tee hee: It's the civic and joyous nature of the debate that's so compelling.

[NAE NOOKIE]

The problem with the Saltire is that it's currently perceived as being associated with rabid nationalists in the form of the snp. The sooner the snp are put to bed the sooner Scotland can begin the healing process of creating harmony in place of the politics of very nasty divisive nationalism.

You read some ***** on here eh? :faf:

[murray26]

You read some ***** on here eh? :faf:

That’s the biggest load of crap I’ve read anywhere not just here..

[Just Alf]

Just catching up on this thread today and I'm speechless at the complete seperation from reality that some folks in this world exhibit :-/

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