Decline of Scottish National Football Team

[theonlywayisup]

What an abysmal performance last night against Belgium. Yes, I know they're one of the best teams in the world at the moment. Yes, I know we competed okay until the Gordon/McGinn moment of madness.

For those who grew up watching the teams of the 70s and early 80s, it's very difficult watching such displays. Back then we at least competed against the world's best. We always get the story about the next batch of u18s or u21s that will turn our fortunes around for us only to get worse.

When will our leaders start to resolve years on wrong decisions?

I've always thought the decline of Scottish football in the 80s coincided with two actions that changed how football was managed in this country.

The first being our teacher's decision to cut back on extra curricular activities. Up until then we had school teachers who took time to train and manage football teams. There was no option but to work with the age group you had. In my day, we had training once a week, a match during the week and one at the weekend. The teacher's rarely had their own child in the team, so every one got a fair chance. For the boys, you played as a team and the bond was strong. There was none of this joining another team of things didn't go well for you.

The second being the Ranger's revolution that allegedly saved Scottish football when Souness started to splash the cash. Up until then you had great sides such as Aberdeen and Dundee United competing in Europe with home grown talent. After that date, teams were more likely to be filled with overseas players many of whom were not that much better than the Scottish players.

I've got no idea how to correct all that is wrong with Scottish football. We've had initiatives since the early 90s, but it's not working. How are we going to correct this?

Thoughts?

[Diclonius]

The "Old Firm first" policy.

[Ozyhibby]

The SFA are failing in just about every area they operate from football governance to youth development.
There is no evidence to suggest it’s going to change anytime soon.


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[theonlywayisup]

The SFA are failing in just about every area they operate from football governance to youth development.
There is no evidence to suggest it’s going to change anytime soon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's what worries me! No quick fixes.

[Brightside]

The more young kids that go down south to academy’s the better. SFA coaching is brutal.

[Pretty Boy]

I don't think kids play enough football. It's been a policy for 15-20 years now. The old 'S' form system saw guys sign with a pro club but they stayed with their boys club until they were 16. Under the current system, or an early variation of it, I know guys who signed with pro teams at 12 or 13 who were stopped from playing school football and onlt seemed to play a glorified bounce game once every couple of weeks. Obviously developmemt was key but there was almost no preparataion for competitive football at all. Too a man they all now hate playing football. At between 28 and 33 all of them have dropped out the game whilst the guys who hung around in the juveniles are all having a ball playing EOS, Lowland and Juniors.

I understand that clubs can't risk missing out especially the potential cash from unearthing a superstar but we seem great at producing guys who are good athletes, they just don't seem to be great footballers.

As an aside I think there is a weird bi polar thing going on in Scottish football at the moment. Fans are reclaiming the club game in many ways. The jibes about 'pub leagues' and so on from England seem to be increasingly fallimg on deaf ears and guys I know who 'wouldn't pay to watch that *****' are increasingly going back to watch their respective clubs. On the flip side the national team seems to invoke a sort of antipathy. All the guys in my work are big football fans and we are all regulars at ER, Tynecastle and Celtic Park respectively; not one is interested in the national team and the only discussion about last nights game this week was moaning that it was happening. Part of that is obviously the performance over the last 2 decades but it seems to run deeper than that.

[BILLYHIBS]

Everyone laughed at Strachan but looking at both teams lining up before kick off our team looked like midgets in comparison?? :greengrin

[Keith_M]

Did anybody seriously think anything other than a total humping was on the cards for yesterday's game?


Belgium were genuine contenders for winning the World Cup this year. Scotland haven't qualified for any final for 20 years.

[where'stheslope]

Nowadays there are more children in Scotland play football on games consols than on football pitches.
Until we get back to tanner baw fitbaw in back greens, I'm afraid we will continue on a downward trend!!!

[Diclonius]

Another example of how badly Scottish football is run:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/32052408

[Bostonhibby]

The SFA are failing in just about every area they operate from football governance to youth development.
There is no evidence to suggest it’s going to change anytime soon.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkTherein lies the problem and there's no way these well heeled and blazered turkeys will be voting for Xmas anytime soon.

Further decline is more likely, still at least there's less chance of the uglies latest starlets transfer value being inflated by their plethora of Scotland caps.



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[Greenbeard]

Did anybody seriously think anything other than a total humping was on the cards for yesterday's game?


Belgium were genuine contenders for winning the World Cup this year. Scotland haven't qualified for any final for 20 years.
Aye, totally daft fixture to arrange. The powers that be need to bite the bullet, accept that we are sh*te and have a long series of fixtures against opposition that is even more sh*te than us, get the team winning regularly, akin to our few years in the Championship. Pitch a lower level team that is on a winning streak, playing positively and high in confidence against a higher level team that is used to getting humped and low in confidence and I know who I would bet on.

[matty_f]

I think there is evidence of change and there are promising players coming through.

Robertson is a world class player, Tierney could reach that level too (unfortunately for Scotland, they play the same position - so you get a manager trying to shoe-horn them into the team, as they probably both lose a bit of their game as a result).

We have a few midfielders who are holding their own in England, and while many don't want to admit it, the quality of the players down there is excellent in the main, so we're obviously able to produce players that have the necessary tools for the job.

There are players like Gilmour as well, who has been picked up by Chelsea and looks like he has a real chance of making it.

There's still a way to go, but I don't think it's right to say that there's nothing to suggest that the SFA are making improvements. I'm no fan of their's, but I would say that there are grounds for optimism.

The concern is we don't seem to produce top class strikers/forwards, and I can't think of a really highly rated young keeper playing at a good level just now.

[BILLYHIBS]

We should beat Albania.........surely ???

[Purple & Green]

The clear things have happened since we last qualified for a major tournament.

1 The new redeveloped Hampden was completed in iirc 1999

&

2 We ditched Umbro for our kit supplier in 2000ish

Fix those two things - quite easy really - and all will be well

[SirDavidsNapper]

We should beat Albania.........surely ???

Albania will be saying the same about Scotland

[Sir David Gray]

I think the main problem was actually scheduling last night's match in the first place.

What possessed the SFA to arrange a friendly against one of the best teams in the world when the national team is already getting a bit of a kicking is anyone's guess.

Last night's match should have been played at Easter Road, Tynecastle or Pittodrie and our opponents should have been against a team like Austria or Sweden.

Both countries are in League B of the Nations League, so still better than us on paper but it would have been a better test going into the Albania game than the demoralising humping that we got last night and will have taught us absolutely nothing.

[BILLYHIBS]

Albania will be saying the same about Scotland


:faf:

[makaveli1875]

Nowadays there are more children in Scotland play football on games consols than on football pitches.
Until we get back to tanner baw fitbaw in back greens, I'm afraid we will continue on a downward trend!!!

Theres alot more kids play football than tennis yet Scotland has turned out 2 world class tennis players that made No1 in a golden era of the sport . Its all about the coaching , those 2 had to go abroad to spain to learn how to play at that level .

[Moulin Yarns]

:faf:

You laugh but they are 'only' 18 places behind us in the ranking.

[Ozyhibby]

Nowadays there are more children in Scotland play football on games consols than on football pitches.
Until we get back to tanner baw fitbaw in back greens, I'm afraid we will continue on a downward trend!!!

You think they don’t have games consoles in Belgium? [emoji23]


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[Pretty Boy]

You laugh but they are 'only' 18 places behind us in the ranking.

And qualified for the last Euros.

[SirDavidsNapper]

Bring back red ash pitches and footballs with leather patches hanging off. Had to be a real man to header them with a 50% chance of being blinded. None of these fancy balls nowadays. The fear of falling on those pitches and getting a piece of broken glass in your leg was fantastic for learning how to avoid tackles. Lets go back the way. Forward clearly isn't working.

[Ozyhibby]

Another example of how badly Scottish football is run:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/32052408

Harper currently playing in Spain’s 4th division so not exactly proving them wrong.


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[Keith_M]

I think the whole reason that the SFA arranged a game against Belgium was to highlight how bad we are and to totally drain any confidence from the Players, Manager and Fans.


I can't think of any other purpose it could have served.

[Billy Whizz]

Harper currently playing in Spain’s 4th division so not exactly proving them wrong.


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He’s playing for Malaga in the 2nd tier, although they are top, scored for them on Monday

[Keith_M]

He’s playing for Malaga in the 2nd tier, although they are top, scored for them on Monday


That put his gas at a peep!


:greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

He’s playing for Malaga in the 2nd tier, although they are top, scored for them on Monday

Ah, sorry I hadn’t realised he had been promoted to their A team.


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[CMurdoch]

He’s playing for Malaga in the 2nd tier, although they are top, scored for them on Monday

His first professional goal at almost 23 years of age and he is a striker.
This guy is well down the pecking order.

[BullsCloseHibs]

Sadly the reason I decided to watch Hibs ladies over Scotland last night. Just extremely difficult to raise any excitement when it comes to the national team as they are rank.

[IGRIGI]

Harper currently playing in Spain’s 4th division so not exactly proving them wrong.


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It's more to do with this reasoning that he's a "luxury player" and has went for a big physical side.

[Wee Effen Bee]

What an abysmal performance last night against Belgium. Yes, I know they're one of the best teams in the world at the moment. Yes, I know we competed okay until the Gordon/McGinn moment of madness.

For those who grew up watching the teams of the 70s and early 80s, it's very difficult watching such displays. Back then we at least competed against the world's best. We always get the story about the next batch of u18s or u21s that will turn our fortunes around for us only to get worse.

When will our leaders start to resolve years on wrong decisions?

I've always thought the decline of Scottish football in the 80s coincided with two actions that changed how football was managed in this country.

The first being our teacher's decision to cut back on extra curricular activities. Up until then we had school teachers who took time to train and manage football teams. There was no option but to work with the age group you had. In my day, we had training once a week, a match during the week and one at the weekend. The teacher's rarely had their own child in the team, so every one got a fair chance. For the boys, you played as a team and the bond was strong. There was none of this joining another team of things didn't go well for you.

The second being the Ranger's revolution that allegedly saved Scottish football when Souness started to splash the cash. Up until then you had great sides such as Aberdeen and Dundee United competing in Europe with home grown talent. After that date, teams were more likely to be filled with overseas players many of whom were not that much better than the Scottish players.

I've got no idea how to correct all that is wrong with Scottish football. We've had initiatives since the early 90s, but it's not working. How are we going to correct this?

Thoughts?
Yet another go teachers and schools. Thank God fir that, I was beginning to think we had forgotten that sector to blame. SOME Teachers, not all, stopped the after school clubs in the late 70s.Think about it: the decline also began at the end of the 70s. Even when we managed to qualify for finals, we drew or lost to countries who were not seen to be in our league. It would have taken a generation or two at the very least for the decline to kick in - it wouldn’t have happened at the same time. Also, many other sports which teachers took, continued to thrive - the working to rule didn’t affect them.
The main reasons of our decline and lose pace with other nations was the lack of investment in youth football and the facilities available. Increasing traffic meant the street playing ‘Tanner ba’ players, virtually disappeared - nowhere to play. Other entertainment options also kicked in late 70s and 80s - the advent of computer games and more TV football had a hand in the decline. Let’s not pick up something we heard or read and pin the blame there, it’s lazy philosophising and a lack of understanding of societal change.

[Tomsk]

Sadly the reason I decided to watch Hibs ladies over Scotland last night. Just extremely difficult to raise any excitement when it comes to the national team as they are rank.

It's healthy to have other interests outside football.

[Billy Whizz]

Ah, sorry I hadn’t realised he had been promoted to their A team.


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Don’t think he’s anywhere ready for National team level though

[CMurdoch]

It was foolish to play Belgium and trying to play out from the back instead of our usual game against such teams.
The result was 3 free goals for Belgium.
The players will be sharper on Monday as a result.

I think we have a good number of quality young players.
Sadly no world beaters but some good to very good players who are still developing.

Robertson, Tierney, McGinn, McGregor, Fraser, McKenna etc

We will qualify for the next Euro's.
However, we will never have a world beating national team.
Even the 70's and 80's teams that everyone harks back to never got out of a World Cup or Euro group.

[ancient hibee]

The big question for me-and has been for a number of years-is why can we compete successfully and not look out of place against the best European teams at various age grade levels with players who have mainly come through the SFA system and yet as these players move through pro football they do not develop or even disappear.Strikes me that youth coaching is one of the better parts of the SFA.

[Scorrie]

Poor facilities and poor coaching for youngsters in my view. Look at what Iceland have done and go down that route. Big investment in pitches and a huge supply of top class coaches.

[GreenCastle]

Deja vu once again...

Many areas that result in the national team failing...

Culture including many of our players aren't intelligent enough (many Scottish players can't speak decent English - compare to German players who can often speak 2 languages and from a young age will make better decisions).
SFA - lack of direction - plan - leadership / many fans have lost faith in those running the game
League structure based around the Old Firm
Old boys network still across all levels / Academies - bad advice given - players suffer - drop out game / don't reach potential.

We don't have any world class players and we won't have any soon. Robertson has improved but World Class - calm down.

I also don't think we will qualify for a tournament anytime soon.

Facilities doesn't come into it. It's what being done that does - we don't need to copy Iceland etc - we need our own identity and strategy to suit a revamped model including a better domestic game that the fans deserve.

I've been saying this since 1998 and still believe we have muppets running our game.

Compare to...

Andy Murray / Jamie Murray
Chris Hoy
Scottish Women's Football
Scottish Rugby

All are / or have performed better due to better structure and support plus athletes who have a brain.

[BILLYHIBS]

You laugh but they are 'only' 18 places behind us in the ranking.
I was not laughing at Sally I was laughing with her it is we who are the laughing stock and the Albanians have every right to think they have every chance on Monday! :wink:

[HIBERNIAN-0762]

It's been going on for years, no infrastructure or investment from a woeful SFA who are only intrested in the ugly sisters big bucks, it will never change in my opinion, not in my lifetime anyway.

[mjhibby]

Poor facilities and poor coaching for youngsters in my view. Look at what Iceland have done and go down that route. Big investment in pitches and a huge supply of top class coaches.

That would certainly be a help. You only have to go to Switzerland to see that virtually every town has a tennis area after Federers exploits. We need a massive investment in indoor pitches and coaches who coach the game properly. Look at the Croatia side. They have defenders who are brilliant readers of the game, they have midfielders who are very skilful and read the game superbly like modric and the two others who are strong, quick allied to great game awareness. And finally they all fit into the way the team plays. Same with Iceland. We have no set structure from kids to youth to professional. It's let's just hope for the best. Until we have all the coaches making sure kids can do the basics and working on ball skills and game awareness then will will always struggle. Bar Tierney and mcginn who is comfortable getting the ball in a tight space. The players are always changing and we have no set way of playing. Guys like Ryan fraser at Bournemouth looks a cracking player but gets lost in the Scotland team.
Unless we get rid of dinosaur coaches going for big physical types we will be years behind other teams. Saying a player is a luxury is the mantra of a very poor coach. Was Gascoigne a luxury, sauzee, Laudrup. No wonder we don't get anywhere. I'm sure we'll get another review, a new manager and it will go on and on. The answer is there but we don't want to seem to fix it.

[Ozyhibby]

That would certainly be a help. You only have to go to Switzerland to see that virtually every town has a tennis area after Federers exploits. We need a massive investment in indoor pitches and coaches who coach the game properly. Look at the Croatia side. They have defenders who are brilliant readers of the game, they have midfielders who are very skilful and read the game superbly like modric and the two others who are strong, quick allied to great game awareness. And finally they all fit into the way the team plays. Same with Iceland. We have no set structure from kids to youth to professional. It's let's just hope for the best. Until we have all the coaches making sure kids can do the basics and working on ball skills and game awareness then will will always struggle. Bar Tierney and mcginn who is comfortable getting the ball in a tight space. The players are always changing and we have no set way of playing. Guys like Ryan fraser at Bournemouth looks a cracking player but gets lost in the Scotland team.
Unless we get rid of dinosaur coaches going for big physical types we will be years behind other teams. Saying a player is a luxury is the mantra of a very poor coach. Was Gascoigne a luxury, sauzee, Laudrup. No wonder we don't get anywhere. I'm sure we'll get another review, a new manager and it will go on and on. The answer is there but we don't want to seem to fix it.

Good coaches paid properly is the key.
I coach youth football at u13’s level as a volunteer. We try as often as possible to hire in coaches to help because I know my limitations. Every time we get a good coach in it is obvious immediately the difference it makes. However, getting these guys in is difficult because there are not enough of them.


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[theonlywayisup]

Yet another go teachers and schools. Thank God fir that, I was beginning to think we had forgotten that sector to blame. SOME Teachers, not all, stopped the after school clubs in the late 70s.Think about it: the decline also began at the end of the 70s. Even when we managed to qualify for finals, we drew or lost to countries who were not seen to be in our league. It would have taken a generation or two at the very least for the decline to kick in - it wouldn’t have happened at the same time. Also, many other sports which teachers took, continued to thrive - the working to rule didn’t affect them.
The main reasons of our decline and lose pace with other nations was the lack of investment in youth football and the facilities available. Increasing traffic meant the street playing ‘Tanner ba’ players, virtually disappeared - nowhere to play. Other entertainment options also kicked in late 70s and 80s - the advent of computer games and more TV football had a hand in the decline. Let’s not pick up something we heard or read and pin the blame there, it’s lazy philosophising and a lack of understanding of societal change.

Chill man, I wasn't having a go at school teachers.

I feel passionately that kids should be playing with their schoolmates and not trying to go from one boys team to another.

As I said there's many causes.

[pollution]

Investing in sport facilities is essential in a country like Spain. Almost every new housing development has a new track, field or club house

built by the developer as a condition of the planning application approval. They have the weather too, of course.

I truly believe that many young people are not particularly interested in football here. They see it as sectarian and crusty. Why spend £25 sitting in the cold?

Education is the end game for those with any aspirations.

The strange thing is that there is a demand for good football for those that look for it eg look at the outstanding attendances at ER and Tynie. We have half a dozen multi

national cap holders - when have we ever had that?

Perhaps we just have to accept that Scottish football is no longer insular and go with the flow.

[Hibbyradge]

Archie MacPherson gave a talk at the Edinburgh book festival this year. He reckoned that Scotland would never be the "force" it used to be and may never qualify for a world cup again.

He gave 2 major reasons for this.

1. The break up of the Soviet Union and

2. The closure of the pits.

[theonlywayisup]

Archie MacPherson gave a talk at the Edinburgh book festival this year. He reckoned that Scotland would never be the "force" it used to be and may never qualify for a world cup again.

He gave 2 major reasons for this.

1. The break up of the Soviet Union and

2. The closure of the pits.

I'm having deja vu

[Hibbyradge]

I'm having deja vu

:greengrin

I hadn't seen this thread but it seemed appropriate to post it here too.

[Paisley Hibby]

Used to care about Scotland team but haven't for a while now. International breaks are just an annoying interruption of real football.

[Ronniekirk]

I went last night to watch Belgium as they are a joy to watch But at Thirty Quid for a friendly wasn't surprised at the Poor Crowd
Passed on Albania game as just can't get excited about the National Team
Thought McGinn did ok but he should never of got caught at first goal that was slack The Belgians move the Ball so quick and find players with ease with delicate flicks and first time passing that just cut us open with thier speed and skill
Both lone strikers struggled Griffiths started game well but seemed to get a knock that then nullified him If he isn't fit for Monday that's a blow Naismith was no great shakes

[greenpaper55]

The EPL has moved onto a different stratosphere compared to the SPL, in the past, top Scottish players could move to the English top league without noticing much difference in the standards but this has changed drastically in recent years. If players are left to stagnate in the SPL they will never match or get anywhere near the standard that is required at international level. Hardly any EPL club will take a chance on buying from up here and nurturing a talent , even Robertson had to prove himself with Hull first before Liverpool took a chance on him so it can be done but this is few and far between i'm afraid.

[mjhibby]

Good coaches paid properly is the key.
I coach youth football at u13’s level as a volunteer. We try as often as possible to hire in coaches to help because I know my limitations. Every time we get a good coach in it is obvious immediately the difference it makes. However, getting these guys in is difficult because there are not enough of them.


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Exactly but not the nonsense box soccer which is all about pace and strength. We need coaches for goalkeepers defenders and attackers. All players must be comfortable controlling, looking up and being able to hit correctly weighted passes and move to the correct position to receive a pass before pace and power come into. We skip pass the ball control and passing bit then we will get destroyed, like last night, by teams who have all the tools to be top footballers. I'm sure we have the talent. Robertson has shown its there it just needs properly coached. Remember he was rejected as a youngster. Says it all.

[superfurryhibby]

My pals laddie has just turned 12 and loves playing football. His team have just made the transition to playing 11 a side games. I went along a couple of weekends ago. They were humped 9-0 by a much better organised and coached Spartans team. The laddie had about half a dozen touches of the ball.

There should be different levels of youth football and the opportunity to carry on playing 7’s should remain an option. Half these boys will be lost to football through boredom and disenchantment by the time their season is over.

[Bangkok Hibby]

We should beat Albania.........surely ???

Really???

[Pretty Boy]

My pals laddie has just turned 12 and loves playing football. His team have just made the transition to playing 11 a side games. I went along a couple of weekends ago. They were humped 9-0 by a much better organised and coached Spartans team. The laddie had about half a dozen touches of the ball.

There should be different levels of youth football and the opportunity to carry on playing 7’s should remain an option. Half these boys will be lost to football through boredom and disenchantment by the time their season is over.

I said a while back ability should play a part in the organisation of youth football as much as age. Group the best 12-14 year olds, as an example, together and let them play each other, then the next tier and so on. If guys are struggling move them down a group, if they are standouts move them up. Having a whole range of abilities of 12 year olds playing against each other just because they are the same age leads to the kind of mismatches you describe and leads to young lads getting bored.

A structured approach that lead to games being as evenly matched as possible seems to make a lot more sense than 'you were all born in the same year so deal with it'.

[Stantons Angel]

I watched in dismay the Scotland game on tv last night and couldnt believe the difference in class between the teams.

As has been said previous generations can claim to have seen decent Scotland players in the teams.

The SFA has been blamed for everything wrong with our game these days, rightly or wrongly!

Scotland is a small nation of 5m people, when you look at it that London alone has 5m residents it shows just how small we are.

BUT we have always been able to pull the odd world class sportsman from the hat. I grew up watching Scotland teams with the likes of Denis Law, Joe Jordan, Gordon McQueen, Billy Bremner and the likes strut their stuff in that dark blue jersey i am so proud of.

To watch recent Scotland teams has been a big disappointment as now you dont have to be Scottish to play for your country. As long as your granny or great granny has a claim to Scottish blood you are in!

IMHO our demise started around the time an influx of foreign players arrived in our domestic teams and Hibs have had their share too. They have made the game better to watch i admit that but what happens to the young and talented player waiting in the wings?

The Scotland teams have been starved of young up and coming talent as they cant get a game in their first teams to show their skills.

The other day i watched an Arsenal team play on tv and they had only two English bred players in their team

You have only to look at our "big two" with the amount of foreign nationals playing in the Scottish league.

These players may be of a good standard but our young stars still havent a platform to play on.

rightly the subject of money and investment gets banded about but where does this come from and where does it go?

The big thing for me though is how do you get youngsters out of the house and off their ps4 and on to the streets or parks kicking a ball?

The Oriam in Edinburgh has been built and seems to be well used. The new cycling dome in Glasgow holds many international event. There are premises being build for grass root sport to grow from.

In my surrounding area a great initiative has blossomed as some dads and their sons meet for the traditional 30 a side game of football at a local park.

this has seen rising numbers come along and join in. This used to be an Edinburgh classic Sunday around here.

Life and the way we live our lives has changed but i think those in power in the SFA have to look further than Glasgow and nearer to players parentage than they do!

[vuefrom1875]

You laugh but they are 'only' 18 places behind us in the ranking.

You're correct....I'm having a bit on Albania @ 9/2....😉😉

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It will all be fine.

I'm sure that once Ernie Walkers Think Tank reports, it will have all the answers we need.

😂

[The Modfather]

I went to see Henry McLeish at the book festival talking about his review of Scottish football. Was quite good but felt he tiptoed round some of the real issues, although only so much you can cover in an hour.

John Collins was in the audience and made a point during the questions portion about the real issue being the coaching. That we simply throw bodies at coaching and pat ourselves on the back at the increase in the number of coaches we have. With no real thought or monitoring of the quality of what is being taught. He believed that once coaches get their badges they should continue to be monitored and some sort of rolling 6 monthly validation that they are still teaching the correct things in the correct manner. He was a bit long winded but made a very good point IMO.

[Tomsk]

I'm having deja vu

I'm having what Archie's on.

[Ozyhibby]

I said a while back ability should play a part in the organisation of youth football as much as age. Group the best 12-14 year olds, as an example, together and let them play each other, then the next tier and so on. If guys are struggling move them down a group, if they are standouts move them up. Having a whole range of abilities of 12 year olds playing against each other just because they are the same age leads to the kind of mismatches you describe and leads to young lads getting bored.

A structured approach that lead to games being as evenly matched as possible seems to make a lot more sense than 'you were all born in the same year so deal with it'.

We have all that at u13 level. There are 4 divisions based on ability.


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[NAE NOOKIE]

During the summer Gala Fairydean Rovers pitch was packed quite a few times with kids playing in what were clearly well organised football events, with more than one of the coaches having Hibs gear on, so I presume we were involved. I think kids do want to play, but for some reason we just aren't turning that enthusiasm into talent.


What bugged me about last night ( and I only saw what was laughably billed as 'the highlights' ) wasn't the way Belgium kept the ball from us for embarrassingly long spells, they are a great team and that was to be expected. No, what boiled my wee wee was our utter inability to construct a move or retain possession on the few occasions we did manage to get the ball off them, apart from in the last 10 minutes or so by which time it didn't really matter. McGinn is taking some flak for losing the ball for their first goal and it has to be said that his touch ( on that occasion ) was a poor one. But even in my walking football team our keeper gets stick if he plays the ball up the middle to a player being pressed by opposition forwards, Craig Gordon should have known better and IMO he dropped SJM right in it.


All but one of their goals was caused by extremely poor passing and decision making by Scotland players … these guys are supposed to be professional players and IMO there's no excuse for such poor play under little pressure, by the time a player gets to the level these guys are at there is absolutely no defence for an inability to play a bread and butter 30 yard pass, to realise you cant play the ball to a guy under pressure right in front of your box and that when you are effectively last man its not a good idea to try and beat one of the worlds best midfielders one on one.

[G B Young]

There should be a 'B' Euros and World Cup for the smaller nations/those not good enough to play in the main event. It would be a competitive way for Scotland to develop and gain some confidence against sides more on our level. Not much to be gained by mis-matches like last night.

[Billy Whizz]

The main downside to not qualifying for 20 years is the of finance received.
N.Ireland got around £7m for the 2016 Euros. Imagine what Scotland could do with with that sort of money, even if we’d qualified for a few in the last 20 years or so
How many indoor football pitches could we have built/employed more coaches

[cleanyman]

The Scottish national team has always been mince.

Easier to qualify for tournaments back in the day and even then they would get punted out with ease

[where'stheslope]

We've just had one of the best summers in years, and yet every time I went round the park with my dogs, I never once seen a game of football, crossy or attack and defence?
The biggest problem today is parents who allow there kids to sit at video consols as it makes it easier to know where they are and safe!
In my day I was out playing football from morning till night at the Meadows, and when it was dark, I would play crossy at the Usher Hall under the street lights.

[johnbc70]

The main downside to not qualifying for 20 years is the of finance received.
N.Ireland got around £7m for the 2016 Euros. Imagine what Scotland could do with with that sort of money, even if we’d qualified for a few in the last 20 years or so
How many indoor football pitches could we have built/employed more coaches

They have had plenty of money over the years and continually show they cannot spend it wisley. If the SFA was a private company it would have been bust years ago due to complete incompetence. If they were a public body the government would have sent in a task force to take over the running of such a clearly failing organisation.

They seem to be accountable to nobody? Actually who are they accountable to?

[Billy Whizz]

They have had plenty of money over the years and continually show they cannot spend it wisley. If the SFA was a private company it would have been bust years ago due to complete incompetence. If they were a public body the government would have sent in a task force to take over the running of such a clearly failing organisation.

They seem to be accountable to nobody? Actually who are they accountable to?

Accountable to the member clubs. Any monies made go back to football clubs.
Probably one of the things that holds them back, too many committees. Hope the new CEO shakes it up

[Ozyhibby]

Accountable to the member clubs. Any monies made go back to football clubs.
Probably one of the things that holds them back, too many committees. Hope the new CEO shakes it up

He’s been in post for over 4 months now and we haven’t heard a peep from him. I’m not holding out much hope that he is going to shake anything up.


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[Golden Bear]

It's not just football, as a sporting nation, Scotland are very much in the doldrums. Both the numbers participating and the general standards of play have declined alarmingly in the last 15 or so years.

[where'stheslope]

Just heard on TV how far were behind, tomorrow night has highlights of woman's Club football in England on the BBC and it may be on longer than Sportscene?????

[Billy Whizz]

I still think we’ll come good in this campaign. Lots of good young players around just now. Up to McLeish to mould them into a team
Will take a 1-0 on Monday

[Ozyhibby]

I still think we’ll come good in this campaign. Lots of good young players around just now. Up to McLeish to mould them into a team
Will take a 1-0 on Monday

There are some good young players coming through but they are a long way from being able to play international football. We can sometime be guilty of over hyping our players. Last night on Sportsound I was listening to the panel before the game talking about how lucky Scotland were that we had two world class goalkeepers. Now I think that both Gordon and McGregor are fine keepers but in nobody outside of Scotland considers either of them to be world class. Pretty sure both were free transfers or close to it. There was no dissenting voice on the whole panel.


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[Scorrie]

They have had plenty of money over the years and continually show they cannot spend it wisley. If the SFA was a private company it would have been bust years ago due to complete incompetence. If they were a public body the government would have sent in a task force to take over the running of such a clearly failing organisation.

They seem to be accountable to nobody? Actually who are they accountable to?

They spent a fortune revamping Hampden when that money should have been invest d in facilities and coaches across the country. There’s plenty of stadia of differing sizes to host Scotland matches. Hampden was a total waste of money in my opinion

[delbert]

I still think we’ll come good in this campaign. Lots of good young players around just now. Up to McLeish to mould them into a team
Will take a 1-0 on Monday

Jesus, what on Earth makes you think we will come good ? We have just been utterly pumped by an under strength side who didn’t even get out of third gear, we are managed by a dinosaur who whored himself around for every job going for a year and got his current job by default because he was the cheap option and wasn’t even quoted until O’Neill told the SFA to take their pennies offer elsewhere and who managed to excite the fans so much that the national stadium was half full with one of the best teams in the world on show!

[Ozyhibby]

They spent a fortune revamping Hampden when that money should have been invest d in facilities and coaches across the country. There’s plenty of stadia of differing sizes to host Scotland matches. Hampden was a total waste of money in my opinion

Amazingly they are thinking of doing all again. 20 years away from major tournaments and the SFA are thinking of spending what little money we do have in property development rather than investing in grassroots coaches and facilities.
Well seen Petrie is so high up in the SFA. Infrastructure first, team a very distant 2nd.


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[matty_f]

Investing in sport facilities is essential in a country like Spain. Almost every new housing development has a new track, field or club house

built by the developer as a condition of the planning application approval. They have the weather too, of course.

I truly believe that many young people are not particularly interested in football here. They see it as sectarian and crusty. Why spend £25 sitting in the cold?

Education is the end game for those with any aspirations.

The strange thing is that there is a demand for good football for those that look for it eg look at the outstanding attendances at ER and Tynie. We have half a dozen multi

national cap holders - when have we ever had that?

Perhaps we just have to accept that Scottish football is no longer insular and go with the flow.
It would be brilliant if councils started making developers build a football pitch when they put up new housing estates.

Easiest way to get kids playing football is to give them somewhere to play.

[Tarrahib]

[QUOTE=BILLYHIBS;5545247]Everyone laughed at Strachan but looking at both teams lining up before kick off our team looked like midgets in comparison?? :greengrinAye take a look at hibs midfield and there current forward one.

[Ozyhibby]

[QUOTE=BILLYHIBS;5545247]Everyone laughed at Strachan but looking at both teams lining up before kick off our team looked like midgets in comparison?? :greengrinAye take a look at hibs midfield and there current forward one.

It’s not the heightthat is the problem, it’s the technical deficiency.


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[CorrieHibs]

We've just had one of the best summers in years, and yet every time I went round the park with my dogs, I never once seen a game of football, crossy or attack and defence?
The biggest problem today is parents who allow there kids to sit at video consols as it makes it easier to know where they are and safe!
In my day I was out playing football from morning till night at the Meadows, and when it was dark, I would play crossy at the Usher Hall under the street lights.

They might not be playing football, but our kids are excelling at other sports. The commonwealth games were proof of that.

So, I don’t believe that kids are just sitting playing games consoles.

They’re now just keen on other sports and not just football.

[hibsbollah]

I'm just listening to Andy Roxburgh talking about this subject, on a twenty minute monologue on radio Scotland. It's all repeating the same tired clichés and stating the bleeding obvious; we need to invest in the youth systems, coaching excellence, Mourinho said Scottish coaching is great once so it must be fine, blah blah blah.

The problem is these erses like Roxburgh PRESIDED over the failure over decades. It's like asking Stalin why people got sent to the salt mines. He was blethering on about how hewatched Iniesta at Spain as a 9 year old and knew he was going to be special, fine, well done. The trick is to bother yourself to find out why and how these players developed like that and spend the money to do it in Scotland. The useless blazers at Troon just didn't bother themselves to do it. If we want real change we need to start by getting rid of the people at the top.

[ancient hibee]

They spent a fortune revamping Hampden when that money should have been invest d in facilities and coaches across the country. There’s plenty of stadia of differing sizes to host Scotland matches. Hampden was a total waste of money in my opinion
Did the SFA spend a fortune on Hampden?Don’t think so.It was Queens Park.

[Pretty Boy]

It would be brilliant if councils started making developers build a football pitch when they put up new housing estates.

Easiest way to get kids playing football is to give them somewhere to play.

In Edinburgh it tends to be the other way round. The Council give the developers a few football pitches to build on.

[Ozyhibby]

Did the SFA spend a fortune on Hampden?Don’t think so.It was Queens Park.

On the understanding that the SFA would pay them enough rent over 25 years to cover it and also that maintenance would be the responsibility of the SFA.
It was a terrible deal for the SFA.


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[Chorley Hibee]

The big question for me-and has been for a number of years-is why can we compete successfully and not look out of place against the best European teams at various age grade levels with players who have mainly come through the SFA system and yet as these players move through pro football they do not develop or even disappear.Strikes me that youth coaching is one of the better parts of the SFA.

I've always felt that success has been because of our preference for the physical aspect of the game (even at youth level) whilst other nations use that level as the perfect opportunity for youngsters to hone their technical skills; in preparation for their career to come.

[Ozyhibby]

In Edinburgh it tends to be the other way round. The Council give the developers a few football pitches to build on.

It’s not so much pitches we are short of, it’s coaches and people willing to set up clubs that we are short of. There are pitches available for anyone that does that.
It can be quite hard to get a young 8-10 year old into a club. Most of them are over subscribed and have a waiting list.


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[judas]

Did anybody seriously think anything other than a total humping was on the cards for yesterday's game?


Belgium were genuine contenders for winning the World Cup this year. Scotland haven't qualified for any final for 20 years.

I think you’re missing the point the OP is making.

[crash]

It would be brilliant if councils started making developers build a football pitch when they put up new housing estates.

Easiest way to get kids playing football is to give them somewhere to play.
Fed up hearing this BS that there is nowhere to play. Tell you what, its a decent night, take a trip to your local park, Leith links, Lochend park, Meadows whatever. Tell me how many kids are out playing football. They are all deserted, **** all to do with lack of facilities.

[GreenCastle]

Makes me laugh when people blame computers.

Do other counties not had the internet / mobiles / computer games ?

Fifa is actually a quite good learning tool for players.

The men’s game is run by dinosaurs and too many dinosaurs still involved.

I’ve been on various coaching courses and some of the stuff being taught is rubbish and they will give anyone a Coaching badge to say we qualified C amount of coaches this year.

You don’t want to put up barriers but there should be more help after these coaches have taken these qualifications - not just CPD.

The whole game in Scotland needs a fresh start and that includes the clowns on the radio and several ex pros who get jobs at academies coaching the next generation of talent.

We produce some good players at youth level but between about 14 onwards they are given bad advice / Coaching / realesed from clubs with no support.

The golden ages to Coach are really young but I’ve seen enough good players at 14 but many don’t progress like they should.

[GreenCastle]

Fed up hearing this BS that there is nowhere to play. Tell you what, its a decent night, take a trip to your local park, Leith links, Lochend park, Meadows whatever. Tell me how many kids are out playing football. They are all deserted, **** all to do with lack of facilities.

So true / plenty of parks.

You don’t need a 3G pitch to be good..

Though Winter you would probably need indoor.

[CentreLine]

Not read all of the thread so apologies if this has been said already but my twopence worth

Scottish football declined when we lost confidence in ourselves. We went in to a state of national mourning of Diana Spencer proportions after the World Cup of 1978 and never recovered our pride or belief. Until we get those back we will never get back amongst the big boys. I genuinely believe we need another Ally MacLeod. Need to get the swagger back

[Ozyhibby]

Fed up hearing this BS that there is nowhere to play. Tell you what, its a decent night, take a trip to your local park, Leith links, Lochend park, Meadows whatever. Tell me how many kids are out playing football. They are all deserted, **** all to do with lack of facilities.

Yip, plenty pitches available. It’s good people that’s needed and better coaches. There are way less clubs now than when I was a kid. There are loads of reasons for that concerning bureaucracy and child protection and that is where the money needs spent to help people who want to run clubs.
I coach at Spartans and it’s the easiest place in Scotland to coach. Everything is done for us and we have amazing facilities. CPD courses are booked for us and our PVG paperwork is all handled by the office staff. We just show up and coach. That is nothing like the experience of most youth coaches out there. They mostly have to do all that themselves, build goals and get nets up, bring all their cones, footballs in their cars etc. And on top of all that they are filling in paperwork themselves when they get home.
What needs to happen though is for that kind of support made available to every club. And that costs money.
Every team playing in the top division in each region should have a coach with his UEFA B license provided to them. But again, that costs money.
I’m just a volunteer coach who has a kid in the team. Already every kid in the team is a better player than I was at that age and I don’t have the time to study for the coaching badges that would really make a difference. They need high quality coaches if they are to continue improving. And I’m certain that is the same for most clubs.
Wasting money doing up Hampden when we have so much else we could spend money on is madness. I’m certain that is the way the SFA will go though.

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[JimBHibees]

I still think we’ll come good in this campaign. Lots of good young players around just now. Up to McLeish to mould them into a team
Will take a 1-0 on Monday

Totally agree we have a better squad now than we have for years. Time to back them rather than constantly slag them off. 4 0 hugely flattered Belgium we will be bettter with a better keeper in.

[JimBHibees]

Yip, plenty pitches available. It’s good people that’s needed and better coaches. There are way less clubs now than when I was a kid. There are loads of reasons for that concerning bureaucracy and child protection and that is where the money needs spent to help people who want to run clubs.
I coach at Spartans and it’s the easiest place in Scotland to coach. Everything is done for us and we have amazing facilities. CPD courses are booked for us and our PVG paperwork is all handled by the office staff. We just show up and coach. That is nothing like the experience of most youth coaches out there. They mostly have to do all that themselves, build goals and get nets up, bring all their cones, footballs in their cars etc. And on top of all that they are filling in paperwork themselves when they get home.
What needs to happen though is for that kind of support made available to every club. And that costs money.
Every team playing in the top division in each region should have a coach with his UEFA B license provided to them. But again, that costs money.
I’m just a volunteer coach who has a kid in the team. Already every kid in the team is a better player than I was at that age and I don’t have the time to study for the coaching badges that would really make a difference. They need high quality coaches if they are to continue improving. And I’m certain that is the same for most clubs.
Wasting money doing up Hampden when we have so much else we could spend money on is madness. I’m certain that is the way the SFA will go though.

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Totally agree cost of coaching courses is too high. There should be a bank of higher level coaches who go round the country at grass roots.

[Pretty Boy]

Fed up hearing this BS that there is nowhere to play. Tell you what, its a decent night, take a trip to your local park, Leith links, Lochend park, Meadows whatever. Tell me how many kids are out playing football. They are all deserted, **** all to do with lack of facilities.

What about in the winter? How many affordable, floodlit facilities are there? Try getting booked onto Saughton 3G on a Tuesday Wednesday, Thursday or Friday night for training.

[crash]

What about in the winter? How many affordable, floodlit facilities are there? Try getting booked onto Saughton 3G on a Tuesday Wednesday, Thursday or Friday night for training.

Its actually quite sad that you think you need to book a 3G in order to play football in the winter, or indeed that a weekly session on that would make any difference at all. However I think thats where we are nowadays, if an adult doesn't arrange a football session then forget it.
Previous generations were more resourceful, we used to produce world class players, any patch of grass/concrete no matter how dimly lit would suffice, play 7 days a week, thats what gets you to world class.

[weecounty hibby]

It was a terrible decision to get rid of Strachan and bring McLiesh back. We should have kept going with Strachan if the best we could come up with as a replacement was McLiesh. So backwards a step that it would never happen with any other country except Scotland. Jobs for the boys or the cheap option or whatever just a stunningly bad appointment.
There are so many things that we need to sort but it will never happen until the SFA/SPFL stop pandering to two clubs, the blazers and the clubs stop being selfish and looking after themselves and look at football in Scotland as a whole.

[cabbageandribs1875]

It was a terrible decision to get rid of Strachan and bring McLiesh back. We should have kept going with Strachan if the best we could come up with as a replacement was McLiesh. So backwards a step that it would never happen with any other country except Scotland. Jobs for the boys or the cheap option or whatever just a stunningly bad appointment.
There are so many things that we need to sort but it will never happen until the SFA/SPFL stop pandering to two clubs, the blazers and the clubs stop being selfish and looking after themselves and look at football in Scotland as a whole.



:agree: we should have begged the wee man to stay on






with one condition he stopped picking the big girly craig gordon

[CentreLine]

Its actually quite sad that you think you need to book a 3G in order to play football in the winter, or indeed that a weekly session on that would make any difference at all. However I think thats where we are nowadays, if an adult doesn't arrange a football session then forget it.
Previous generations were more resourceful, we used to produce world class players, any patch of grass/concrete no matter how dimly lit would suffice, play 7 days a week, thats what gets you to world class.

I am a friend of a former Brazilian footballer. He was striker with Sao Paulo in the 60s. I got to talking about the falling standard of our game and harked back to the days of the tanner ball players here. “Ball?” He says. And then went on to describe how the great players of his generation in Brazildidnt even start with a ball, tennis or otherwise, rolled up paper and tape was the best they could do and never anything near the size of a full size ball. Street lights were a luxury but they played everywhere they cloud, day and night.
Even as a pro at São Paulo, when they did have balls, he would practice for hours with a ball barely bigger than a tennis ball. Says the real thing was a sinche after that.
Didn’t produce a bad bunch of players.

If we had more confidence in our abilities and stopped making excuses maybe we’d get back to the top of the game. Belief breeds winners IMHO

[Pretty Boy]

Its actually quite sad that you think you need to book a 3G in order to play football in the winter, or indeed that a weekly session on that would make any difference at all. However I think thats where we are nowadays, if an adult doesn't arrange a football session then forget it.
Previous generations were more resourceful, we used to produce world class players, any patch of grass/concrete no matter how dimly lit would suffice, play 7 days a week, thats what gets you to world class.

That's a nonsense argument. We produced good players in the past in spite of the lack of facilities, much the same as other coubtries. Now other nations are racing ahead of us because of their facilities and coaching infastructure.

I'd love to see more lads playing football in the streets but that's not going to get us to the level of Belgium, Croatia or even Iceland. I'm all for playing football for fun but to produce serious players you need the right coaches and the right equipment. A boys club can't train in a dimly lit car park on a winters night.

[crash]

That's a nonsense argument. We produced good players in the past in spite of the lack of facilities, much the same as other coubtries. Now other nations are racing ahead of us because of their facilities and coaching infastructure.

I'd love to see more lads playing football in the streets but that's not going to get us to the level of Belgium, Croatia or even Iceland. I'm all for playing football for fun but to produce serious players you need the right coaches and the right equipment. A boys club can't train in a dimly lit car park on a winters night.

Boys clubs dont train in dimly lit car parks, they all have better training facilities nowadays than any previously, but the standard is decreasing year on year and I speak with 40 years experience in the game, playing and coaching.

[Pretty Boy]

Boys clubs dont train in dimly lit car parks, they all have better training facilities nowadays than any previously, but the standard is decreasing year on year and I speak with 40 years experience in the game, playing and coaching.

Maybe the issue is how the facilities are used. And I'd still challenge that we have facilities comparable to other nations of similar stature. Certainly not ones that are affordable to all.

On another level since failing to qualify for the 1994 World Cup France have been in 3 WC finals, winning 2 and 2 Euro finals, winning 1. Read about the top to bottom overhaul of the game after the 94 embarrassment and tell me that's a coincidence. They invested hugely in facilities and coaches, made it compulsory for teams to play young home grown players and developed a system in which it was almost impossible for a talented player to slip through the net. I was in Montpellier a couple of years ago and the facility that backed on to my mates house was 2nd to none and streets ahead of even what the likes of Spartans have here; that's replicated 3 or 4 times across that one, relatively speaking, small city.

We aren't getting to that level but qualifying for a major tournament is our WC final. Whilst other nations seem to have embraced change we still seem to be blaming Playstations and busy roads.

[BSEJVT]

Imo it boils down to lack of participation.

When I was a boy every boy played, yes to varying degrees of ability but everyone played.

Half the time in places that they shouldn't, I lost count of the times we were chased by the parkie or the polis, but folk were so keen to play they played wherever they could

Huge games with later arrivals decided by a cock and a hen were commonplace

Everyone wanted to get in their school team / play for their boys club / play for their street / scheme.

As soon as you were big enough you played against folk many years older than you and it toughened you up.

In some ways it was a rite of passage getting picked to play by bigger boys

It was absolutely unthinkable that most of the boys that stuck with it to secondary school wouldn't then go on and play as adults

I couldn't tell you the last time I saw a bunch of kids walking down a street with a ball, in my youth a ball was your most prized possession.

Nowadays it seems that mum or dad need to take them to a boys club to encourage kids to play.

Many lack the basic ability to cross or trap a ball as the only time they see it is at training.

Coaches do a great job but they cant make silk purses out of sows ears and far too often that is what they are tasked with doing through lack of numbers to thin down into good players capable of developing to a good standard

The transition from what was in my day A forms to the first team has always been fraught but one thing that really surprises me in Scotland is that very few teams sign players from lower leagues

Is it the case that the top teams pick up all the top talent and then put it through the meat grinder so that these boys either make it or quit and the lower teams only get to sign players who will very seldom be capable of playing at a higher level.

If that is the case that layer of discarded talent that might come good elsewhere is lost to the game.

Having said that I can think of very few players discarded as youths by Hibs who have made us regret doing so over the last 30 years, so maybe clubs know what they are doing?

[timebomb]

There's plenty of problems, the Soviet union splitting up, Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia all splitting up and forming more countries with bigger playing pools hasn't helped.

But last night, we played 3 at the back for no reason other than to shoe horn Tierney into the team.

souter, Robertson, Tierney and Mullgree all play a back 4 every week yet we use them in a back 3 then put Fraser as a right wing back when he plays left midfield if I'm not mistaken for Bournemouth

Total farce

[The_Horde]

Has the team actually gotten worse though? We've always been utterly dreadful.

The real problem is why do we continue to be pish whilst nations like Belgium have kicked on and become a world force?

It's shocking from a nation of football supporters.

[Michael]

Has the team actually gotten worse though? We've always been utterly dreadful.

The real problem is why do we continue to be pish whilst nations like Belgium have kicked on and become a world force?

It's shocking from a nation of football supporters.

Scotland used to have world class players.

[mjhibby]

Boys clubs dont train in dimly lit car parks, they all have better training facilities nowadays than any previously, but the standard is decreasing year on year and I speak with 40 years experience in the game, playing and coaching.

The standard is decreasing but I think it is more to do with the lack of willingness to learn and to constantly practise. Kids are not interested in long talks about passing and game awareness unlike the rest of Europe. Possession play is alien to our nature and there is still the urge to launch it forward as quick as possible. Too many social payers in teams as opposed to those where the kids have a huge drive, will to win and want to listen and improve. Improving the standard of Scottish youth football has to come with good, knowledgeable, forward thinking coaches but also has to come from within the kids themselves. When I see the commitment at my laddies basketball team it really shows up how poor most kids are at applying themselves at football. Maybe talented kids think they don't have to put in the miles but guys like Cantona, Ronaldo, Beckham etc endlessly practised long passes, free kicks etc. I don't see kids desperate to stay late after training. They just want a kickabout. IMHO.

[mjhibby]

There's plenty of problems, the Soviet union splitting up, Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia all splitting up and forming more countries with bigger playing pools hasn't helped.

But last night, we played 3 at the back for no reason other than to shoe horn Tierney into the team.

souter, Robertson, Tierney and Mullgree all play a back 4 every week yet we use them in a back 3 then put Fraser as a right wing back when he plays left midfield if I'm not mistaken for Bournemouth

Total farce

McGinn seemed to be on the right of midfield a lot too. Baffles me how mulgrew and souttar are playing when hanlon is every bit as good. Surely this wasn't the game to play souttar. The whole set up was a nonsense. If I was fraser I wouldn't want to any part of it. He is doing superbly for Bournemouth and I don't see playing for Scotland developing his game. Just depressing to watch but the sad thing is we are all now immuned to failure and concentrate on our clubs.

[bubblesmorrison]

There is no where for kids to go and play. Goals get locked up parents think its unsafe for the kids to play on the street and kids don't get that street football experience anymore. Mix that with the fact that youth coaches in Scotland are treated like crap and most of the good ones end up abroad you are left with parents who yes may try in their eyes to do the best running sessions at boys clubs ending up stunting the development of the players and a governing body who is just filled with dinosaurs all adds up to the first team being crap.

[DetroitHibs]

Anyone that listens to the Si Ferry, will notice the same statement from ex players. Everyone to a man says that dressing rooms back then as a young lad were much better. Yes they caught **** from the older heads, but they grew up fast and were better players for it. Get back to these young lads cleaning boots and earning there place.

No surprise that some of the best talent came from the streets playing fitbaw with jumpers for goal posts. This cookie cutter training from the academy's is guff. You listen to the ex players talking and it's all pass, pass, pass. Very little on letting the players express themselves.

[Brizo]

Imo it boils down to lack of participation.

When I was a boy every boy played, yes to varying degrees of ability but everyone played.

Half the time in places that they shouldn't, I lost count of the times we were chased by the parkie or the polis, but folk were so keen to play they played wherever they could

Huge games with later arrivals decided by a cock and a hen were commonplace

Everyone wanted to get in their school team / play for their boys club / play for their street / scheme.

It was absolutely unthinkable that most of the boys that stuck with it to secondary school wouldn't then go on and play as adults

I couldn't tell you the last time I saw a bunch of kids walking down a street with a ball, in my youth a ball was your most prized possession.

Nowadays it seems that mum or dad need to take them to a boys club to encourage kids to play.

That's much the way I grew up but looking back how much of it was down to the fact there was really little else to do. The options available for kids to entertain themselves now are huge compared to the 70s and that combined with parents safety concerns has put an end to street and park football. Id suggest the only places you find kids playing football all day every day are the less affluent countries of the world where those options don't exist. They are also the kids with the lack of opportunities and who see football as a way out of their environment.

Youth football is great and there are loads of dedicated coaches but for lots of kids going to football is just one activity out of a whole list of activities that they do every week. Its not the be all and end all it was for our generations.

I think Scotland will continue to produce good players and maybe even some great players but our relative affluence means that we no longer have the environment that used to mass produce them.

[grunt]

I coach at Spartans and it’s the easiest place in Scotland to coach. Everything is done for us and we have amazing facilities. CPD courses are booked for us and our PVG paperwork is all handled by the office staff. We just show up and coach.Well done for coaching at Spartans! That seems to be a really well run operation.

[Diclonius]

Do kids in Croatia, Uruguay, Denmark, Wales, Slovakia, Northern Ireland, Ireland, Costa Rica, Iceland and Bosnia (countries with similar or smaller populations above us in the ranking) never ever stay home all day and never ever play on game consoles as opposed to playing real football? Are Scotland somehow the only country in the world where kids stay at home all day, that somehow the shift to home entertainment has in fact eluded every country in the world except Scotland? All the kids in Croatia, Uruguay, Denmark, Wales, Slovakia, Northern Ireland, Ireland, Costa Rica, Iceland and Bosnia are out there every evening and every weekend always playing football?

That excuse is bull**** IMO. It's the administration and the unwillingness to invest and progress in coaching that's at fault.

[Pretty Boy]

Do kids in Croatia, Uruguay, Denmark, Wales, Slovakia, Northern Ireland, Ireland, Costa Rica, Iceland and Bosnia (countries with similar or smaller populations above us in the ranking) never ever stay home all day and never ever play on game consoles as opposed to playing real football? Are Scotland somehow the only country in the world where kids stay at home all day, that somehow the shift to home entertainment has in fact eluded every country in the world except Scotland? All the kids in Croatia, Uruguay, Denmark, Wales, Slovakia, Northern Ireland, Ireland, Costa Rica, Iceland and Bosnia are out there every evening and every weekend always playing football?

That excuse is bull**** IMO. It's the administration and the unwillingness to invest and progress in coaching that's at fault.

In a nutshell.

The bleating about 'playing Xboxes' and 'tanner ba' players' is part of the problem rather than the solution. It's excuses and doesn't explain why other countries have dealt with it and we haven't. Harking back to some golden age is letting the SFA with their negligence.

I'm wary of mentioning them because I'm not on some of their Christmas card lists but look at what Helping Hands acheived in Edinburgh. Hundreds of kids enjoying structured and well organised coachung sessions with a bunch of enthusiastic volunteers. Just imagine there was the will at the SFA and SYFA to roll out a similar national programme at an 'elite' level. Instead we'll get more soul searching, reports and end up in the same position in 2022, 2026 and so on.

[Is It On....]

It will all be fine.

I'm sure that once Ernie Walkers Think Tank reports, it will have all the answers we need.

😂

I remember that..was in the late 80s? A big start to show that things are changing is to ditch Hampden and move to Murrayfield. The people in charge of our game aren't even brave enough to do that!! The next step would be to get a director of football and professional chief exec appointed. They would, amongst other things, be responsible for hiring and firing of managers at all age groups. We have to do things differently if we want a different outcome.

[blackpoolhibs]

Football has moved on since the days when we qualified for tournaments, and the world has also moved on too.

Parents want to know where their kids are 24/7, kids do stay indoor much more these days, entertainment in the home is a huge part of their lives now, but this is also the same the whole world over bar some of the 3rd world.

We need lots more proper organised coaching, with proper coaches who can teach kids how to play and learn the skills needed to reach elite levels.

As is the norm, not many will make it and most will fall by the wayside, but we are still producing some decent players, but give them the right facilities and give them proper coaching from people who know what they are doing and surely we'd produce more.

Its no secret that others countries are doing this and seeing the results, but of course its all down to money and how well its used.

One question we cant answer though, is have we the right people at the top who know how to do this and do they actually have the capabilities to take football forward the way it needs to go?

[Halmyre Hibee]

Don’t have all the answers but something wrong when so called inferior football nations consistently outrank us. Need real football people in at the SFA not blazers. I used to get a buzz and butterflies in my stomach when Scotland played and felt so proud of them. Don’t get this anymore. Thought it was an age thing as 60 next year but I still get the buzz before a Hibs game. Need a total overhaul of the SFA just like Hibs done post relegation and try to engage the fans more.

[Ryan69]

The main downside to not qualifying for 20 years is the of finance received.
N.Ireland got around £7m for the 2016 Euros. Imagine what Scotland could do with with that sort of money, even if we’d qualified for a few in the last 20 years or so
How many indoor football pitches could we have built/employed more coaches

I thinks the blazers would probably just see it as a good enough excuse for a payrise and lump-sum bonus for themselves.

[Onion]

Without question, the social shift in kids pursuits is at the heart of the National tram’s decline. You could easily argue that Scotland was punching well above its weight in the 50-80s due the sheer volume of young lads playing football day and night. However, the football authorities have failed to recognise and replace that, so we are where we are - finding our own level among the worst footballing nations in Europe.

[G B Young]

:agree: we should have begged the wee man to stay on


with one condition he stopped picking the big girly craig gordon

I don't imagine many international bosses get begged to stay on after two failed qualification campaigns. Strachan was given two full campaigns plus half of Levein's final disastrous campaign yet at the end of the day we were no nearer qualifying than before. We didn't even make the play-offs and beat nobody of note when it mattered. Granted, we had a tough group for Euro 2016 but there was no 'bad luck' about that. It was solely down to the fact we'd slipped into the fourth tier of seeds due to our continued failure at international level. We actually got quite lucky with the World Cup 2018 qualifying group yet still came up short. I've no doubt Strachan did his best but there's only so much you can do with a squad that, when all's said and done, just isn't good enough.

Friday's result against Belgium can't really have come as much of surprise. In a match between the world's third best team and a nation which hasn't qualified for a major tournament in over 20 years I'd have thought the scoreline was pretty much to be expected.

[lord bunberry]

Nowadays there are more children in Scotland play football on games consols than on football pitches.
Until we get back to tanner baw fitbaw in back greens, I'm afraid we will continue on a downward trend!!!
There’s still plenty football being played by kids in this country. I was at pitreavie playing fields on Saturday morning and there was hundreds of kids playing in the weekly U9s festival. It’s far more organised than it used to be all through the age groups. Something is going wrong with turning talented youngsters into professional footballers. Personally I think it’s down to the professional clubs. I refuse to believe that with all these kids playing every week that there isn’t talented players out there. Our current captain was released by Celtic and ended up at Queens Park ffs.

[superfurryhibby]

Without question, the social shift in kids pursuits is at the heart of the National tram’s decline. You could easily argue that Scotland was punching well above its weight in the 50-80s due the sheer volume of young lads playing football day and night. However, the football authorities have failed to recognise and replace that, so we are where we are - finding our own level among the worst footballing nations in Europe.

I agree with the latter part about the football authorities. The SFA and the clubs are all culpable in their own ways. Our professional game still places an over reilance on physicality at the expense of skill and creativity and this is part of a wider culture that permeates all the way down the chain. The pro youth system has failed too. Has the standard changed or have produced any more high quality players because of it? The social changes you refer to are no different though in any other European nation, it is a culture and facilities issue that stops progress.



There’s still plenty football being played by kids in this country. I was at pitreavie playing fields on Saturday morning and there was hundreds of kids playing in the weekly U9s festival. It’s far more organised than it used to be all through the agegroups. Something is going wrong with turning talented youngsters into professional footballers. Personally I think it’s down to the professional clubs. I refuse to believe that with all these kids playing every week that there isn’t talented players out there. Our current captain was released by Celtic and ended up at Queens Park ffs.

I agree Bunberry, I was down at the Jack Kane watching my pals laddie. The place was busy loads of kids and lots of games. Sadly the12’s were playing a side at a much better standard and there were a lot of boys who barely had a kick of a ball- that makes it seems like a miracle they carry on.

When you mention the failure to convert talent into professionalism, I wonder what can be done differently? I,’m not sure how it gets resolved. I watched some equivalent of juvenile football in Spain, all played on astro. It was competative and robust, but there was very little lumping the ball away. The emphasis was on passing, always.

Scotland is still one of the most passionate football nations on this earth. We love the game, watch and play it in huge numbers ( relative to our population). I feel sorry for younger guys who haven’t had the chance to appreciate how much passion the national side created in past decades.

[Diclonius]

Albania
Bosnia
Croatia
Denmark
Iceland
Ireland
Latvia
Northern Ireland
Norway
Slovakia
Slovenia
Wales

European countries with an equivalent or lower population that have qualified for a major tournament since we last did. I take it the majority of kids in these countries aren't always "playing the Xboxes" and "never going outside" like we apparently do? That the rapid technological boom has only affected Scotland and kids in Albania, Bosnia, Croatia, Denmark, Iceland, Ireland, Latvia, Northern Ireland, Norway, Slovakia, Slovenia and Wales live in some sort of time-unaffected utopia where video games and the internet don't exist and everyone plays outside from the minute school finishes until tea time?

What a lazy, ridiculous smokescreen of an argument.

[Greenbeard]

Imo it boils down to lack of participation.

When I was a boy every boy played, yes to varying degrees of ability but everyone played.

Half the time in places that they shouldn't, I lost count of the times we were chased by the parkie or the polis, but folk were so keen to play they played wherever they could

Huge games with later arrivals decided by a cock and a hen were commonplace

Everyone wanted to get in their school team / play for their boys club / play for their street / scheme.

As soon as you were big enough you played against folk many years older than you and it toughened you up.

In some ways it was a rite of passage getting picked to play by bigger boys

It was absolutely unthinkable that most of the boys that stuck with it to secondary school wouldn't then go on and play as adults

I couldn't tell you the last time I saw a bunch of kids walking down a street with a ball, in my youth a ball was your most prized possession.

Nowadays it seems that mum or dad need to take them to a boys club to encourage kids to play.

Many lack the basic ability to cross or trap a ball as the only time they see it is at training.

Coaches do a great job but they cant make silk purses out of sows ears and far too often that is what they are tasked with doing through lack of numbers to thin down into good players capable of developing to a good standard

The transition from what was in my day A forms to the first team has always been fraught but one thing that really surprises me in Scotland is that very few teams sign players from lower leagues

Is it the case that the top teams pick up all the top talent and then put it through the meat grinder so that these boys either make it or quit and the lower teams only get to sign players who will very seldom be capable of playing at a higher level.

If that is the case that layer of discarded talent that might come good elsewhere is lost to the game.

Having said that I can think of very few players discarded as youths by Hibs who have made us regret doing so over the last 30 years, so maybe clubs know what they are doing?
Aye but in those days at school everyone prob just had three winter sports to choose from - football or rugby (depending on your school) or cross-country running - and you did it right through August to March - a massive pool of potential players. These days at school you get a 4 week block in all sorts of different sports which, on top of wider media coverage of minority sports, widens kids' interest. Allied with sometimes massive public funding for minority sports at which we have a chance of getting a medal at Olympics or Commonwealths, why would the sporty kid stick with football when he/she now has far greater opportunity to more easily excel and get national recognition in a lesser sport, like judo, mountain biking, snowboarding, or speed climbing? FFS there is even talk of e-sports getting into the Olympics.

Mind you, whilst this might reduce the overall number playing the game at school or club level through the age-groups, you'd think the really top talent would still come through. Or does the wee skillful lad a la Jimmy Johnstone who is maybe young in his year group get lost 'cos coaches just pick the more physical lads to try and win the game?

Sadly, I don't think we will ever see Scotland on the football stage at the same sort of level, nor respected as opponents, the way we were in the 70s.

[where'stheslope]

When we talk about improved facilities the Orium jumps immediately to mind, but how many others do we have?
Full size pitch playable in all weathers it has to be the way forward!
Just look at all the teams that use its facilities both football and rugby, and the amount of games played on it from under 11's upwards male and female.
To my way of thinking there should be at least 1 of this type of facility in every big town or city, where the young can train and play throughout the winter months in a local area without having to travel miles, as this means the parents are tasked with bringing and taking their kids back and forwards miles just to train.

[heretoday]

I don't know why we bother with a full-time manager - certainly not an unremarkable type like McLeish.

[theonlywayisup]

I think we're all agreed that there are many reasons for the decline in the Scottish National Football Team. Lots of arguments and counter-arguments discussed on this thread. The reality is that it's not one reason alone that is the cause. Also, that it's not one person or organisation alone that's to blame, if we are in the game of pinning blame.

However, surely it's now time for our 'leaders' to do something about it. As I said in the original post..............




I've got no idea how to correct all that is wrong with Scottish football. We've had initiatives since the early 90s, but it's not working. How are we going to correct this?

Thoughts?

How do we put pressure on our 'leaders' to do something about it? At club level, pressure can be applied to club owners to do something about poor performance. There's been many instances of this in the past. Any club owner would be foolish not to listen to the views of their fan base. However, with the Scotland National Team there just seems to be an acceptance that we're rubbish. For the avoidance of doubt, by 'leaders' I don't just mean the SFA. I'd also include government, schools, boys football organisations etc even the media.

How are we going to correct this? Because, whatever we're doing it's not working.

[cleanyman]

The women are doing no bad

[lord bunberry]

I agree with the latter part about the football authorities. The SFA and the clubs are all culpable in their own ways. Our professional game still places an over reilance on physicality at the expense of skill and creativity and this is part of a wider culture that permeates all the way down the chain. The pro youth system has failed too. Has the standard changed or have produced any more high quality players because of it? The social changes you refer to are no different though in any other European nation, it is a culture and facilities issue that stops progress.




I agree Bunberry, I was down at the Jack Kane watching my pals laddie. The place was busy loads of kids and lots of games. Sadly the12’s were playing a side at a much better standard and there were a lot of boys who barely had a kick of a ball- that makes it seems like a miracle they carry on.

When you mention the failure to convert talent into professionalism, I wonder what can be done differently? I,’m not sure how it gets resolved. I watched some equivalent of juvenile football in Spain, all played on astro. It was competative and robust, but there was very little lumping the ball away. The emphasis was on passing, always.

Scotland is still one of the most passionate football nations on this earth. We love the game, watch and play it in huge numbers ( relative to our population). I feel sorry for younger guys who haven’t had the chance to appreciate how much passion the national side created in past decades.
I think coaching has a lot to do with it. What I would say is that we need a coaching technique that suits the Scottish kids. There’s been many successful sides in world football over the years and not all of them have been built on the same total football that the Spanish have adopted. While the French are undoubtedly a team with excellent technique, they move the ball forward much quicker, they’re the ultimate counter attacking team. We need to look to other countries but try and adapt it to our game. There’s certain qualities we have and we need to build our game around them.

[where'stheslope]

I think coaching has a lot to do with it. What I would say is that we need a coaching technique that suits the Scottish kids. There’s been many successful sides in world football over the years and not all of them have been built on the same total football that the Spanish have adopted. While the French are undoubtedly a team with excellent technique, they move the ball forward much quicker, they’re the ultimate counter attacking team. We need to look to other countries but try and adapt it to our game. There’s certain qualities we have and we need to build our game around them.
Back in 1978 I was on holiday in Gothenberg, and was lucky enough to watch a game on a shale pitch with nets in each goal and corner flags, that were not removed after the game.
I would say the teams were around 12/13 age group, and one boy playing at the back stood out from the rest, his control of the ball and passing was amazing, he would bring the ball down with his thigh and push the ball wide with the other leg, and he could do it with both feet.
The others in the teams were also of a great standard, but no one was jumping into challenges, it was all about 1/2 ball movement, and it was a joy to watch.
Since then I have watched quite a few young teams here and have never yet seen anyone with that young players skill!
If it was coached, we should be trying to bring these coaches over here to show us how to do it!!!

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I remember that..was in the late 80s? A big start to show that things are changing is to ditch Hampden and move to Murrayfield. The people in charge of our game aren't even brave enough to do that!! The next step would be to get a director of football and professional chief exec appointed. They would, amongst other things, be responsible for hiring and firing of managers at all age groups. We have to do things differently if we want a different outcome.

Early 90s maybe? It's something I vaguely remember from my childhood.

Maybe around the same time we got wallpaper away to Portugal (5-0?) which seems to have been a surprise result at the time, but actually seemed to be a VERY accurate sign of things to come.

I find this thread interesting though, because it seems everybody is very sure of what needs to be done, but almost every post has a different solution to a different problem!

[Keith_M]

Early 90s maybe? It's something I vaguely remember from my childhood.

Maybe around the same time we got wallpaper away to Portugal (5-0?) which seems to have been a surprise result at the time, but actually seemed to be a VERY accurate sign of things to come.

I find this thread interesting though, because it seems everybody is very sure of what needs to be done, but almost every post has a different solution to a different problem!


As far as I know, we've never been wallpapered by Portugal.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

As far as I know, we've never been wallpapered by Portugal.

We certainly took a right pasting though.

[WoreTheGreen]

We certainly took a right pasting though.

Both fullbacks overlapped well

[crash]

Albania
Bosnia
Croatia
Denmark
Iceland
Ireland
Latvia
Northern Ireland
Norway
Slovakia
Slovenia
Wales

European countries with an equivalent or lower population that have qualified for a major tournament since we last did. I take it the majority of kids in these countries aren't always "playing the Xboxes" and "never going outside" like we apparently do? That the rapid technological boom has only affected Scotland and kids in Albania, Bosnia, Croatia, Denmark, Iceland, Ireland, Latvia, Northern Ireland, Norway, Slovakia, Slovenia and Wales live in some sort of time-unaffected utopia where video games and the internet don't exist and everyone plays outside from the minute school finishes until tea time?

What a lazy, ridiculous smokescreen of an argument.

Not really, croatia currently have a golden generation, the rest of these countries players are on a level similar to Scotland.

[Smartie]

As far as I know, we've never been wallpapered by Portugal.

I woodchip in with a pun of my own if I could think of one.

[EH54]

Albania
Bosnia
Croatia
Denmark
Iceland
Ireland
Latvia
Northern Ireland
Norway
Slovakia
Slovenia
Wales

European countries with an equivalent or lower population that have qualified for a major tournament since we last did. I take it the majority of kids in these countries aren't always "playing the Xboxes" and "never going outside" like we apparently do? That the rapid technological boom has only affected Scotland and kids in Albania, Bosnia, Croatia, Denmark, Iceland, Ireland, Latvia, Northern Ireland, Norway, Slovakia, Slovenia and Wales live in some sort of time-unaffected utopia where video games and the internet don't exist and everyone plays outside from the minute school finishes until tea time?

What a lazy, ridiculous smokescreen of an argument.

The thing for me that stands out is they countries mentioned seem to have more organisation, and are more settled. We've chopped and changed managers and players. We need to work out a strong starting x11 and formation, one that is solid first so we are staying in games then build from there. The defence we have needs as much protection as possible. Doesn't matter who's playing every week and on form etc..we need to get a group of players used to playing and performing at international level and fimiliar with our setup, instead of throwing a random 11 on the park.

[Colr]

What an abysmal performance last night against Belgium. Yes, I know they're one of the best teams in the world at the moment. Yes, I know we competed okay until the Gordon/McGinn moment of madness.

For those who grew up watching the teams of the 70s and early 80s, it's very difficult watching such displays. Back then we at least competed against the world's best. We always get the story about the next batch of u18s or u21s that will turn our fortunes around for us only to get worse.

When will our leaders start to resolve years on wrong decisions?

I've always thought the decline of Scottish football in the 80s coincided with two actions that changed how football was managed in this country.

The first being our teacher's decision to cut back on extra curricular activities. Up until then we had school teachers who took time to train and manage football teams. There was no option but to work with the age group you had. In my day, we had training once a week, a match during the week and one at the weekend. The teacher's rarely had their own child in the team, so every one got a fair chance. For the boys, you played as a team and the bond was strong. There was none of this joining another team of things didn't go well for you.

The second being the Ranger's revolution that allegedly saved Scottish football when Souness started to splash the cash. Up until then you had great sides such as Aberdeen and Dundee United competing in Europe with home grown talent. After that date, teams were more likely to be filled with overseas players many of whom were not that much better than the Scottish players.

I've got no idea how to correct all that is wrong with Scottish football. We've had initiatives since the early 90s, but it's not working. How are we going to correct this?

Thoughts?

Good point on the schools but also youth clubs/BB/scouts and others who provide football.

Contrast Iceland which has more qualified coaches per head of population than any other country. If kids are playing their they are being trained properly and they manage to identify and develop enough players from their small population to compete at a good level.

The SFA’s main task should be funding and providing for the development of loads of coaches.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

As far as I know, we've never been wallpapered by Portugal.

😂 bloody predictive!

[ancient hibee]

Why not ban 11 a side teams for kids.Only 5 a sides and all about playing passes.At 14 move them on to team functions.Doing nothing but 5 a sides at training was good enough for the best Liverpool team and other than running round the pitch was all the great Hibs team of the 50s did.

[The Green Goblin]

I think the biggest problem is the fact that this exact same “what’s wrong and how do we fix it” discussion over the Scottish national team has been happening for over twenty years. From the looks of the state of the SFA, it will be running for the next twenty as well.

[majorhibs]

Scotland- horrible disgusting weather- charge anybody & anything to play football when the weathers crap, bairns cannae go oot in that- why nae players? Go Europe facilities everywhere! Go figure!

[mjhibby]

Why not ban 11 a side teams for kids.Only 5 a sides and all about playing passes.At 14 move them on to team functions.Doing nothing but 5 a sides at training was good enough for the best Liverpool team and other than running round the pitch was all the great Hibs team of the 50s did.

I've been saying this for years. Forget about medals and trophies. Work on the ball skills and game awareness then at 14 have friendlies then at 15/16 make it leagues. Everbody wants a medal though. All about ego. You can equate it to the old development league. It doesn't matter who wins it but who develops into a first team player. We have porteous and Shaw which is good and possibly Allan though I think Ben Stirling looks a prospect.

[Diclonius]

I think the biggest problem is the fact that this exact same “what’s wrong and how do we fix it” discussion over the Scottish national team has been happening for over twenty years. From the looks of the state of the SFA, it will be running for the next twenty as well.

If there was a league table of European football administrations the SFA would be East Stirlingshire - bottom of the pile and content with it as they're not the ones suffering.

[J-C]

Can't be bothered reading all 5 pages as I'll more than likely agree with the majority, here's my take on things.

When the OF started bringing in decent English and Foreigners in the rest of the clubs in the Scottish league started to do the same but with a lesser quality, some worked out and others didn't but it was the amount that came in that stifled the prospects of our younger players due to lack of game time.

The psyche of the youngster has changed, there used to be thousands of kid all over Scotland kicking a ball around whether it was in the street or in the park, every day you'd see kids playing football. Not now though, kids are barred from kicking balls around, it all has to be organised and it all costs money, strips, pitches and licensed coaching badges. Add into the fact that technology has boomed in the past 35 years and we have many many kids playing computers etc and have little interest in playing football.

If you have a look back just 25-35 years ago we used to have Scottish teams playing and doing well in European football, all with a team of 11 Scots, Turnbull's Tornadoes is a great example, regular top 3 in the league and dozens of famous wins against top European teams. Also during this time we had many regular players plying their trade in England and across Europe, just look at now when we have less than a handful playing in the top league in England, jeez we had 3-4 in every top English team at one point.

Finally the greed of the OF and the ease at which lesser teams sell their top players to them all the time, this weakens these teams and allows the OF to carry on winning everything that comes along. They screwed up the TV deal due to the greed when Setanta folded, this took out millions from our game and forced teams to sell their better players and also not able to hold onto these players due to lack of resources.

There's not one thing you can put your finger on but a culmination of many things that have chipped away at the game here in Scotland, we'll probably never get back to regular qualifications or top European cup games and it's a shame for all the younger fans of the game here.

[calumhibee1]

Just saw the highlights this morning. While McGinn may have lost the ball for the first goal, what on Earth was Gordon doing giving it to him in that position? Throwing it to a guy in the middle of the pitch 30 yards from goal with an opponent about 10 yards away is mental. McGinn maybe could have got rid of it but that would have been about the only option available to him because of the ridiculous throw to him.

[JimBHibees]

Just saw the highlights this morning. While McGinn may have lost the ball for the first goal, what on Earth was Gordon doing giving it to him in that position? Throwing it to a guy in the middle of the pitch 30 yards from goal with an opponent about 10 yards away is mental. McGinn maybe could have got rid of it but that would have been about the only option available to him because of the ridiculous throw to him.

Agree think the bigger mistake was the throw out to him rather than his poor touch.

[Steven79]

Just saw the highlights this morning. While McGinn may have lost the ball for the first goal, what on Earth was Gordon doing giving it to him in that position? Throwing it to a guy in the middle of the pitch 30 yards from goal with an opponent about 10 yards away is mental. McGinn maybe could have got rid of it but that would have been about the only option available to him because of the ridiculous throw to him.


Why the hell would you even risk such a pass as it's asking for trouble....

It's the kind of of mistake I would be giving my 7 year old a look for never mind an experienced international like Gordon who should really know better, McGregor is the far better keeper and should be first choice as Gordon isn't the same player he was before his injury.

[Steven79]

Agree think the bigger mistake was the throw out to him rather than his poor touch.

Yeah he could have done better but he should have never been put in that position in the first place.

Gordon needs dropped as he makes far too many mistakes now and he's a liability.

[Spike Mandela]

Remember when we used to have International matches midweek with the league football continuing every weekend and our international team invariably qualified for World Cups.

Now we have boring international breaks and qualify for **** all.:cb

[Diclonius]

The psyche of the youngster has changed, there used to be thousands of kid all over Scotland kicking a ball around whether it was in the street or in the park, every day you'd see kids playing football. Not now though, kids are barred from kicking balls around, it all has to be organised and it all costs money, strips, pitches and licensed coaching badges. Add into the fact that technology has boomed in the past 35 years and we have many many kids playing computers etc and have little interest in playing football.

This will have happened in every country in Europe. Why has it only affected us?

[JimBHibees]

Just saw the highlights this morning. While McGinn may have lost the ball for the first goal, what on Earth was Gordon doing giving it to him in that position? Throwing it to a guy in the middle of the pitch 30 yards from goal with an opponent about 10 yards away is mental. McGinn maybe could have got rid of it but that would have been about the only option available to him because of the ridiculous throw to him.

What was even more annoying was that muppet Provan on sky sports only highlighted the McGinn mistake nothing about Gordon, though Strachan and Fletcher highlighted the folly of the throw out.

He needs dropping big time.

[Kato]

Just saw the highlights this morning. While McGinn may have lost the ball for the first goal, what on Earth was Gordon doing giving it to him in that position? Throwing it to a guy in the middle of the pitch 30 yards from goal with an opponent about 10 yards away is mental. McGinn maybe could have got rid of it but that would have been about the only option available to him because of the ridiculous throw to him.

Hearts supporting pal said this morning- If McGinn had signed for Celtic and Gordon was still at Hearts Gordon would have been immediately blamed for the throw out, with a small amount of criticism for McGinn later on.

[JimBHibees]

Hearts supporting pal said this morning- If McGinn had signed for Celtic and Gordon was still at Hearts Gordon would have been immediately blamed for the throw out, with a small amount of criticism for McGinn later on.

Your mate is spot on.

[J-C]

This will have happened in every country in Europe. Why has it only affected us?


That my friend is the million dollar answer, hence why this thread is going, I think it's down to grassroots football and the availability of pitches to play on.

[RoslinInstHibby]

What was even more annoying was that muppet Provan on sky sports only highlighted the McGinn mistake nothing about Gordon, though Strachan and Fletcher highlighted the folly of the throw out.

He needs dropping big time.

Provan must have brought it up at least 5 times during the match "he won't need to be reminded about his error" aye, no with you bringing it up constantly ya welt!

[Not In The Know]

I think the main problem was actually scheduling last night's match in the first place.

What possessed the SFA to arrange a friendly against one of the best teams in the world when the national team is already getting a bit of a kicking is anyone's guess.

Last night's match should have been played at Easter Road, Tynecastle or Pittodrie and our opponents should have been against a team like Austria or Sweden.

Both countries are in League B of the Nations League, so still better than us on paper but it would have been a better test going into the Albania game than the demoralising humping that we got last night and will have taught us absolutely nothing.


Tiny castle does not meet the requirements to host a full international. Pitch is to small.

[Ryan69]

Not really, croatia currently have a golden generation, the rest of these countries players are on a level similar to Scotland.

Theyve had a golden generation since their first ever match in 1994.
Always have some fantastic players.

[WeeRussell]

I'm all for defending McGinn over the Celtic goalkepper, and also all for going against Provan... but I thought McGinn was 100% to blame for the first. He took a poor first touch and (with time to recover) tried to do his trademark use of the body to get out of the situation. It didn't work and we conceded. Apart from that he didn't have a bad game.

[WeeRussell]

There should be a 'B' Euros and World Cup for the smaller nations/those not good enough to play in the main event. It would be a competitive way for Scotland to develop and gain some confidence against sides more on our level. Not much to be gained by mis-matches like last night.

haha - not even one of your better efforts!

[Gordy M]

Im going to go against the grain here a wee bit and say that we are not nearly as bad as some make out. In the last few qualifications we have been a bit unlucky and this coupled with the odd poor performance has led to the non-qualification. I saw someone mention Croatia, wasnt that long ago we beat them home and away. It just seems we are always constantly at a level where we have some good results and some bad and this leads to us being close but not getting there. It wasnt too long ago that Iceland were being hailed as system to copy......they got hammered 6-0 from the swiss the other day....imagine the reaction on here if we had a result like that?? Could it be that they had a 'golden generation'and no one now to replace them?

[Kato]

Could it be that they had a 'golden generation'and no one now to replace them?

Iceland's Golden Generation are a product of investment in infrastructure (football barns) and in coaching. It's no accident that they have qualified for recent tournaments, it's planning, forethought and a programme of development designed to give kids something to do. It's also no accident we have none of that forethought or facilities and have seen development decline in the last 40 years.

[WeeRussell]

Im going to go against the grain here a wee bit and say that we are not nearly as bad as some make out. In the last few qualifications we have been a bit unlucky and this coupled with the odd poor performance has led to the non-qualification. I saw someone mention Croatia, wasnt that long ago we beat them home and away. It just seems we are always constantly at a level where we have some good results and some bad and this leads to us being close but not getting there. It wasnt too long ago that Iceland were being hailed as system to copy......they got hammered 6-0 from the swiss the other day....imagine the reaction on here if we had a result like that?? Could it be that they had a 'golden generation'and no one now to replace them?

Definitely. If we fail to beat Albania tonight then I'll be very annoyed and asking serious questions. Getting a caning off one of the best sides in the world while trying out relatively new players in different positions.. I'll get over that.

[JimBHibees]

Definitely. If we fail to beat Albania tonight then I'll be very annoyed and asking serious questions. Getting a caning off one of the best sides in the world while trying out relatively new players in different positions.. I'll get over that.

Well one positive is that McGregor is likely to be in goal.

[Gordy M]

Iceland's Golden Generation are a product of investment in infrastructure (football barns) and in coaching. It's no accident that they have qualified for recent tournaments, it's planning, forethought and a programme of development designed to give kids something to do. It's also no accident we have none of that forethought or facilities and have seen development decline in the last 40 years.

Iceland qualified for the Euros from a group where im sure the top seeds finished bottom of the group, possibly greece? But not 100% sure. We had three teams who made it to the last 8 of the whole tournament? To me....thats a bit unlucky.

Il ask you this....if we played Iceland home and away would you be dissapointed if we didnt beat them?

[WhileTheChief..]

This will have happened in every country in Europe. Why has it only affected us?

It’s not just us though, ask the Dutch or the Italians how they feel about their national sides right now.

Countries have good and bad times. Take Bale out of the Welsh team and they’d never have qualified. It’s certainly not down to Welsh coaching or their FA!!!

The problem is our players, not the SFA or coaches or anything else.

Until we have players with the desire to be the very best they can be we will continue to muddle on.

[Kato]

Iceland qualified for the Euros from a group where im sure the top seeds finished bottom of the group, possibly greece? But not 100% sure. We had three teams who made it to the last 8 of the whole tournament? To me....thats a bit unlucky.

Il ask you this....if we played Iceland home and away would you be dissapointed if we didnt beat them?

Nothing disappoints me any more about the Scotland team.

You can believe what you like, "luck or no luck". The facts are there - a country with a population less than Edinburgh's is now qualifying for major tournaments 15 years or so after investing heavily in infrastructure and coaching. Scotland invests in nothing and pays lip service to development and never qualifies. luck or the luck of the draw has nothing to do with it. If Iceland beat us it would be a bit "meh" for me.

[Kato]

The problem is our players, not the SFA or coaches or anything else.

Until we have players with the desire to be the very best they can be we will continue to muddle on.

Upside down garbage. The players who do make the grade for Scotland are not to blame. It's the lack of quality players and the lack of any plan to produce them in numbers.

Have to say when it comes to any argument about the SFA you never fail to take their side, even when it's as plain as the nose on your face that as guardians of the sport in this country they are an abject failure at almost everything they take on.

[Gordy M]

Nothing disappoints me any more about the Scotland team.

You can believe what you like, "luck or no luck". The facts are there - a country with a population less than Edinburgh's is now qualifying for major tournaments 15 years or so after investing heavily in infrastructure and coaching. Scotland invests in nothing and pays lip service to development and never qualifies. luck or the luck of the draw has nothing to do with it. If Iceland beat us it would be a bit "meh" for me.

Of course luck of the draw has something to do with it?? So if hibs get celtic away in the Scottish Cup in the 3rd round and Arbroath get to the 4th round then Arbroath are better than us?? Im not saying thats the whole reason, im sure there are other things we could be doing; but my whole point is that we are nowhere near as bad as some on here are making out.

Il just add that Iceland have played 6 games in 2018, lost 4 and drawn 2.......NO WINS. And that includes a 6-0 humping from the swiss(not exactly a top team?)

[WhileTheChief..]

^^Read the Cummings thread on here.

No amount of coaching can help that.

[Andy.1875]

I'm all for defending McGinn over the Celtic goalkepper, and also all for going against Provan... but I thought McGinn was 100% to blame for the first. He took a poor first touch and (with time to recover) tried to do his trademark use of the body to get out of the situation. It didn't work and we conceded. Apart from that he didn't have a bad game.

Didn't have a bad game! They conceded 4 goals. Where is the positive in that?

[Kato]

Of course luck of the draw has something to do with it?? So if hibs get celtic away in the Scottish Cup in the 3rd round and Arbroath get to the 4th round then Arbroath are better than us?? Im not saying thats the whole reason, im sure there are other things we could be doing; but my whole point is that we are nowhere near as bad as some on here are making out.

Il just add that Iceland have played 6 games in 2018, lost 4 and drawn 2.......NO WINS. And that includes a 6-0 humping from the swiss(not exactly a top team?)

Yet they qualify, to a degree where they are qualifying regularly and Scotland .... well you know the rest.

[Gordy M]

Yet they qualify, to a degree where they are qualifying regularly and Scotland .... well you know the rest.

Well not really, they have qualified for 2 tournaments in a row.....im assuming with the same set of players.....not sure 2 tournaments in their history can count as regularly? It happens to a few teams. They get a really good set of players, get up the seedings which makes it easier, then players get older etc and they drop back down the rankings. Same has happened with a few teams. We just have to find that set of players and push on.

[Kato]

Well not really, they have qualified for 2 tournaments in a row.....im assuming with the same set of players.....not sure 2 tournaments in their history can count as regularly? It happens to a few teams. They get a really good set of players, get up the seedings which makes it easier, then players get older etc and they drop back down the rankings. Same has happened with a few teams. We just have to find that set of players and push on.

Do you know the circumstances surrounding the fact they have a "good set of players", when they have never had such a set of players before?

[Gordy M]

Do you know the circumstances surrounding the fact they have a "good set of players", when they have never had such a set of players before?

Nope....im not saying what Iceland are doing is wrong, but what im saying is that its not necessarily the sole reason, beacuse if it is, then that means that Northern Ireland, Wales and the ROI must be investing heavily in coaching and facilities etc? Im not sure they are. Maybe they just get a decent set of players, decent manager and a bit of luck in qualifying?

[Ozyhibby]

Upside down garbage. The players who do make the grade for Scotland are not to blame. It's the lack of quality players and the lack of any plan to produce them in numbers.

Have to say when it comes to any argument about the SFA you never fail to take their side, even when it's as plain as the nose on your face that as guardians of the sport in this country they are an abject failure at almost everything they take on.

100% correct


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kato]

Nope....im not saying what Iceland are doing is wrong, but what im saying is that its not necessarily the sole reason, beacuse if it is, then that means that Northern Ireland, Wales and the ROI must be investing heavily in coaching and facilities etc? Im not sure they are. Maybe they just get a decent set of players, decent manager and a bit of luck in qualifying?

So is it just "bad luck" that Scotland have failed to qualify the last 10 tournaments? We wouldn't know of course as they haev zero investment in infrastructure and the quality of coaching has stayed at the same level for years.

Whatever Northern Ireland, Wales and the ROI do, it's better than our national organisation.

[JimBHibees]

Nope....im not saying what Iceland are doing is wrong, but what im saying is that its not necessarily the sole reason, beacuse if it is, then that means that Northern Ireland, Wales and the ROI must be investing heavily in coaching and facilities etc? Im not sure they are. Maybe they just get a decent set of players, decent manager and a bit of luck in qualifying?

Maybe better trying to take as much luck out of the equation by investing appropriately in higher quality coaching and facilities such as Iceland have done. They have very few players and a tiny population lets study and copy what they have done. Just happened to be at Oriam at the weekend that is an amazing facility and Hearts have landed very well to have that on their doorstep.

[WeeRussell]

Didn't have a bad game! They conceded 4 goals. Where is the positive in that?

I said other than that extremely bad error, MCGINN didn't have a bad game. Nothing else.

[Gordy M]

So is it just "bad luck" that Scotland have failed to qualify the last 10 tournaments? We wouldn't know of course as they haev zero investment in infrastructure and the quality of coaching has stayed at the same level for years.

Whatever Northern Ireland, Wales and the ROI do, it's better than our national organisation.

Where did i say it was just down to bad luck??? I said it has been a contributing factor along with a lot of other things including good players and management.

So you dont know what ROI, Northern Ireland and Wales do but its better than us? Ok then.

[Gordy M]

Maybe better trying to take as much luck out of the equation by investing appropriately in higher quality coaching and facilities such as Iceland have done. They have very few players and a tiny population lets study and copy what they have done. Just happened to be at Oriam at the weekend that is an amazing facility and Hearts have landed very well to have that on their doorstep.

Im not saying what Iceland are doing is wrong. What im saying is that sometimes teams land on a good team and managememt and have just as much success. I dont think Scotland are a bad team and not nearly as poor as folk are making out. If Scotland qualify for this tournament, then is everything ok, is the SFA great now?

[JimBHibees]

Im not saying what Iceland are doing is wrong. What im saying is that sometimes teams land on a good team and managememt and have just as much success. I dont think Scotland are a bad team and not nearly as poor as folk are making out. If Scotland qualify for this tournament, then is everything ok, is the SFA great now?

Reasonable point you did seem to be putting luck as a key factor while it may be a factor surely a proper plan is more important and then fine margins may kick in as in who we draw or who the manager is.

[Gordy M]

Reasonable point you did seem to be putting luck as a key factor while it may be a factor surely a proper plan is more important and then fine margins may kick in as in who we draw or who the manager is.

No it is mate.....my example of luck was to do with a tournament that Iceland qualified for and we didnt....Euro 2016. Would Iceland have qualified from a group Including ROI Poland and Germany?? Im not sure.

Thing is our squad is full of guys playing in the premiership/championship and top of the SPL. That would suggest that we are producing some good players at least. We dont have that Star player a lot of other countries have but that apart our squad looks as good as a lot of other countries mentioned in this thread.

[JimBHibees]

No it is mate.....my example of luck was to do with a tournament that Iceland qualified for and we didnt....Euro 2016. Would Iceland have qualified from a group Including ROI Poland and Germany?? Im not sure.

Thing is our squad is full of guys playing in the premiership/championship and top of the SPL. That would suggest that we are producing some good players at least. We dont have that Star player a lot of other countries have but that apart our squad looks as good as a lot of other countries mentioned in this thread.

Tend to agree about the squad being better just a shame we do seem very short in key areas such as centre back and striker.

[Gordy M]

Tend to agree about the squad being better just a shame we do seem very short in key areas such as centre back and striker.

Yep i agree, hopefully we can put a few results together. I would say i cant understand playing Belgium and Portugal as friendlies. We need to put a run of results together so i wouldve been tempted to play against 2 of the 'lesser' teams and try and get wins to get the confidence up.

[CorrieHibs]

No it is mate.....my example of luck was to do with a tournament that Iceland qualified for and we didnt....Euro 2016. Would Iceland have qualified from a group Including ROI Poland and Germany?? Im not sure.

Thing is our squad is full of guys playing in the premiership/championship and top of the SPL. That would suggest that we are producing some good players at least. We dont have that Star player a lot of other countries have but that apart our squad looks as good as a lot of other countries mentioned in this thread.

Tbf, we should have got a play off in that group.

The game in Georgia again let us down. Ireland taking 4 points off of Germany didn’t help though.

Iceland would have got a play off place at least.

Sometimes in international football you have a golden generation. Iceland have had success in the last 5/6 years. They’ve been struggling this year. Humped by the Swiss. Maybe now their team is aging and they might drift away. Not sure who they have coming in.

For what it’s worth, I think we have a decent side. Centre backs aren’t great. Although, Soutar and McKenna have promise, so fingers crossed. Midfield looks good, Griffith’s will score goals against the lesser nations and that’s sometimes what we have lacked. Dropping points in those fixtures.

McBrunie will add to that and he’s only 21/22, so will improve.

McLeish wasn’t my choice like most folk, but he’s in the job and we have to support it.

He needs to figure out how we play Tierney and Robbo in the same team. Personally i’d go with Robbo at Left mid/wing and Tierney left back. I don’t think we’re good enough to play at back 3 that’s plays from back. Certainly against the top nations like Belgium.

[Smartie]

Tend to agree about the squad being better just a shame we do seem very short in key areas such as centre back and striker.

Yes it is a shame, mainly because if you flip it around and have a couple of excellent centre-halves and a striker who can score then you can probably put out a team that is hard to beat and can pick goals off on the break, a fairly effective playing style.

Our weaknesses are in absolutely critical positions sadly.

[Speedy]

This will have happened in every country in Europe. Why has it only affected us?

I don't think it has only affected us.

Various other things are interlinked with that though. Rising affluence of the population relative to other countries/facilities for football/take up of other activities/weather

[Onion]

If we had just one or two decent players to build the team around, would at least be a start and maybe help drag others up a level or two. Wales is a bang average team excelling because of couple of great players. But in the last 20 years, cannot think of one Scottish player who would come close to an Arron Ramsay let alone Bale. Not one of the current squad would get into the England team.

[Juniper Greens]

Is Robertson knocking on the door of being "World Class"?

[CMurdoch]

Gylfi Sigurdsson is now 29.
I predict Iceland have one 4 year cycle left in their team before falling back into the also ran pack.

[500miles]

If we had just one or two decent players to build the team around, would at least be a start and maybe help drag others up a level or two. Wales is a bang average team excelling because of couple of great players. But in the last 20 years, cannot think of one Scottish player who would come close to an Arron Ramsay let alone Bale. Not one of the current squad would get into the England team. Darren Fletcher was a very different kind of player to Ramsey, but certainly on the same level up until his illness. In fact, in terms of silverware, Ramsey isn't even close.

As an aside, if you look at pictures of Fletcher before and after the ulcerative colitis, it's testimony to how good he is that he contained to play top level football afterwards.

[Lancs Harp]

Gylfi Sigurdsson is now 29.
I predict Iceland have one 4 year cycle left in their team before falling back into the also ran pack.

I think Icelands decline is already in evidence. True they got a very creditable draw against Argentina in the world cup but the only match they have won in 2018 was against Indonesia. A 2-2 draw with Ghana and lost six. They have a had a great little run though.

[The Green Goblin]

Gylfi Sigurdsson is now 29.
I predict Iceland have one 4 year cycle left in their team before falling back into the also ran pack.

...where they will rejoin us!

[Hibrandenburg]

Over here the youth system is excellent. Kids normally start in teams between the ages of 4 and 6 but there's nothing stopping them joining later. All players need to have a player pass and their development is registered from the very start.

Each age group covers a period of 2 years so that the younger kids get to mix it with the older kids and vice versa. The rules of the game are kept very basic at the start and are increased every time the kids reach the next level. The pitches also grow in size every level until the kids are eventually playing 11 v 11 on full size pitches.

Another difference is that the football clubs themselves have a strong social aspect to them. Near enough every village has a football team and every football team has it's own bar/restaurant on site. This means that most of the kids parents get involved on a social level and identify themselves with the club their kids play for. My boy's team are playing Saturdays this year and most of the kids and parents hang around after the game to watch the first or second team play when we have home games. There's also the chance to sit outside the clubhouse with a pint and socialize with other parents whilst your kids are being put through their paces at training twice a week.

I used to play for a city team in Berlin before moving outside the city, my boy now playing for his local team has not only been fantastic for him in his development but has also played a huge role in the whole family integrating quickly into the local community. Any country would do well to look at the German way.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Decline? What decline? We’re flying high now.

[JimBHibees]

Darren Fletcher was a very different kind of player to Ramsey, but certainly on the same level up until his illness. In fact, in terms of silverware, Ramsey isn't even close.

As an aside, if you look at pictures of Fletcher before and after the ulcerative colitis, it's testimony to how good he is that he contained to play top level football afterwards.

I think arguably Fletcher could be seen as being a better player than Ramsey especially in terms of trophies and playing regularly in a better team.

[CMurdoch]

Over here the youth system is excellent. Kids normally start in teams between the ages of 4 and 6 but there's nothing stopping them joining later. All players need to have a player pass and their development is registered from the very start.

Each age group covers a period of 2 years so that the younger kids get to mix it with the older kids and vice versa. The rules of the game are kept very basic at the start and are increased every time the kids reach the next level. The pitches also grow in size every level until the kids are eventually playing 11 v 11 on full size pitches.

Another difference is that the football clubs themselves have a strong social aspect to them. Near enough every village has a football team and every football team has it's own bar/restaurant on site. This means that most of the kids parents get involved on a social level and identify themselves with the club their kids play for. My boy's team are playing Saturdays this year and most of the kids and parents hang around after the game to watch the first or second team play when we have home games. There's also the chance to sit outside the clubhouse with a pint and socialize with other parents whilst your kids are being put through their paces at training twice a week.

I used to play for a city team in Berlin before moving outside the city, my boy now playing for his local team has not only been fantastic for him in his development but has also played a huge role in the whole family integrating quickly into the local community. Any country would do well to look at the German way.

That sounds great on so many levels, especially the social aspects.

[CMurdoch]

I think Icelands decline is already in evidence. True they got a very creditable draw against Argentina in the world cup but the only match they have won in 2018 was against Indonesia. A 2-2 draw with Ghana and lost six. They have a had a great little run though.

They have had an outragous run based on their population

[Smartie]

I think arguably Fletcher could be seen as being a better player than Ramsey especially in terms of trophies and playing regularly in a better team.

Fletcher and Man Utd benefitted massively from Bertie Vogts chucking him into the national team early.

Craig Brown and the like were used to waiting until 27 or 28 before giving good players their first cap.

Bertie was much maligned but he got some stuff bang on.

[theonlywayisup]

Decline? What decline? We’re flying high now.

:doh:

Based on last nights display, it's going to take a long long time before fortunes improve.

Over the last few years, we've had the odd decent display or even decent spell. But that only attempts to cover up the serious decline in the quality of the football played by the national team.

We've found our level in the 3rd tier of European Football and were comfortably beaten by team that looked to be heading the 4th tier. A defeat in Albania and a draw or loss at home to Israel might mean relegation to the 4th tier, where we'll compete against the minnows of European football.

[Lago]

Good piece from Tom English on bbc sport web site.

[theonlywayisup]

Vote for your worst 90 minutes as a Scotland fan?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45832167

Some horrific results in there, but I'm sure they missed a few. For example, Costa Rica and Iran - they'll be in the 'other'.

[G B Young]

It bemuses me why anyone claims to be shocked by Scotland's ineptitude any more.

The 'decline' is not some recent phenomenon. It goes back decades, hence why we find ourselves in such a tinpot group in a tinpot tournament - and why we struggle even in such lowly company. Blaming McLeish is nonsense. We've been through about half a dozen managers since we last qualified for something and all have failed to get us to a major tournament. Even the dumbed-down Nations League, which is the equivalent of reducing the pass mark in an exam from 50% to 15% to try and give some of the serial non-qualifiers a much easier qualification route (quite how that's supposed to improve the quality of the football is questionable to say the least) seems too challenging for us.

I'm not sure what folk actually expect of Scotland any more. Whatever we once brought to the international stage is long gone. I gave up watching them more than a decade ago as it struck me there were better things to do with my time, which looks to have been a wiser decision with each passing year!

[ancient hibee]

s
Vote for your worst 90 minutes as a Scotland fan?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45832167

Some horrific results in there, but I'm sure they missed a few. For example, Costa Rica and Iran - they'll be in the 'other'.

They were outwith the period BBC was discussing.

[Eyrie]

Vote for your worst 90 minutes as a Scotland fan?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45832167

Some horrific results in there, but I'm sure they missed a few. For example, Costa Rica and Iran - they'll be in the 'other'.
I've voted three times for Levein, becaue he deserves to win something in his career.

[theonlywayisup]

It bemuses me why anyone claims to be shocked by Scotland's ineptitude any more.

The 'decline' is not some recent phenomenon. It goes back decades, hence why we find ourselves in such a tinpot group in a tinpot tournament - and why we struggle even in such lowly company. Blaming McLeish is nonsense. We've been through about half a dozen managers since we last qualified for something and all have failed to get us to a major tournament. Even the dumbed-down Nations League, which is the equivalent of reducing the pass mark in an exam from 50% to 15% to try and give some of the serial non-qualifiers a much easier qualification route (quite how that's supposed to improve the quality of the football is questionable to say the least) seems too challenging for us.

I'm not sure what folk actually expect of Scotland any more. Whatever we once brought to the international stage is long gone. I gave up watching them more than a decade ago as it struck me there were better things to do with my time, which looks to have been a wiser decision with each passing year!

Maybe you should read the original post; no-one has said it's a recent phenomenon. Quite the opposite.

[poolman]

I agree with the latter part about the football authorities. The SFA and the clubs are all culpable in their own ways. Our professional game still places an over reilance on physicality at the expense of skill and creativity and this is part of a wider culture that permeates all the way down the chain. The pro youth system has failed too. Has the standard changed or have produced any more high quality players because of it? The social changes you refer to are no different though in any other European nation, it is a culture and facilities issue that stops progress.




I agree Bunberry, I was down at the Jack Kane watching my pals laddie. The place was busy loads of kids and lots of games. Sadly the12’s were playing a side at a much better standard and there were a lot of boys who barely had a kick of a ball- that makes it seems like a miracle they carry on.

When you mention the failure to convert talent into professionalism, I wonder what can be done differently? I,’m not sure how it gets resolved. I watched some equivalent of juvenile football in Spain, all played on astro. It was competative and robust, but there was very little lumping the ball away. The emphasis was on passing, always.

Scotland is still one of the most passionate football nations on this earth. We love the game, watch and play it in huge numbers ( relative to our population). I feel sorry for younger guys who haven’t had the chance to appreciate how much passion the national side created in past decades.


That's good to know

I go back to when I was growing up and living in Bruntsfield, on school hols we played on the links seven days a week, morning, afternoon then at night till dark, your parents always knew where you were and didn't worry

Until I retired recently I worked in Bruntsfield school and I never saw any kids playing football in the links in the holidays or any other time


Also, there is no primary school football league on a Saturday morning any more 🙄

[mjhibby]

No it is mate.....my example of luck was to do with a tournament that Iceland qualified for and we didnt....Euro 2016. Would Iceland have qualified from a group Including ROI Poland and Germany?? Im not sure.

Thing is our squad is full of guys playing in the premiership/championship and top of the SPL. That would suggest that we are producing some good players at least. We dont have that Star player a lot of other countries have but that apart our squad looks as good as a lot of other countries mentioned in this thread.

In other words other countries are doing better with what they have at their disposal. Leaving out Croatia as they always seem to produce top players and team countries like Switzerland regularly qualify. They are blessed with a great team but make the best of what they have. We can list Ireland, Northern Ireland, Iceland etc who have smaller populations and qualify or go close to. We are not getting the best out of our players. The answer is to put a sructured plan in place but there is too much self interest and a lot of players are more interested in their clubs plus the coaches bar Strachan have been woeful.

[Phil MaGlass]

Over here the youth system is excellent. Kids normally start in teams between the ages of 4 and 6 but there's nothing stopping them joining later. All players need to have a player pass and their development is registered from the very start.

Each age group covers a period of 2 years so that the younger kids get to mix it with the older kids and vice versa. The rules of the game are kept very basic at the start and are increased every time the kids reach the next level. The pitches also grow in size every level until the kids are eventually playing 11 v 11 on full size pitches.

Another difference is that the football clubs themselves have a strong social aspect to them. Near enough every village has a football team and every football team has it's own bar/restaurant on site. This means that most of the kids parents get involved on a social level and identify themselves with the club their kids play for. My boy's team are playing Saturdays this year and most of the kids and parents hang around after the game to watch the first or second team play when we have home games. There's also the chance to sit outside the clubhouse with a pint and socialize with other parents whilst your kids are being put through their paces at training twice a week.

I used to play for a city team in Berlin before moving outside the city, my boy now playing for his local team has not only been fantastic for him in his development but has also played a huge role in the whole family integrating quickly into the local community. Any country would do well to look at the German way.

Its the same in Holland to an extent, facilities are great and all fenced off or moated so the neds cant run amok. Great training facilities, all weather and grass pitches, bars/restaurants, even in the small villages they have decent facilities. In the centre of cities there are 5 a side cages for kids to play in, all in all well organised and funded.

[theonlywayisup]

Another embarrassing defeat. We can blame the manager. We can blame the players. But this has been going on for years.

When will those that administer Scottish football start doing something about it.

[Ozyhibby]

Another embarrassing defeat. We can blame the manager. We can blame the players. But this has been going on for years.

When will those that administer Scottish football start doing something about it.

They won’t because fans in Scotland will keep letting them get away with it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[green day]

Its the same in Holland to an extent, facilities are great and all fenced off or moated so the neds cant run amok. Great training facilities, all weather and grass pitches, bars/restaurants, even in the small villages they have decent facilities. In the centre of cities there are 5 a side cages for kids to play in, all in all well organised and funded.

Its interesting, in this country we have huge lottery funding at our disposal for sports - however we seem to aim it more at the elite level (certainly other countries have complained about this advantage when it comes to olympic medals etc).

Whereas in other countries they do concentrate a lot more on the grass roots - its the same in France, even wee diddy villages apply for and get money for decent pitches / changing facilities etc.

I was out last night and two of my mates are youth coaches, both thinking of jacking it in as its just getting too much hassle to be worth it.

[jakedance]

Are at a new low? We had some pretty brutal teams in recent years, seemed to improve a bit under Strachan but look awful just now. I don’t share the view held by some that we’ve got some good players. They’re pretty mediocre all over the park by international standards.

It seems every country produces a great world class player every now and again but it’s literally been decades for us. I watch and support Scotland and go to the odd game but I can see why people don’t care about them.

[SirDavidsNapper]

Are we obliged to have a national team? Just seems a waste of time and money

[Leith Green]

Are at a new low? We had some pretty brutal teams in recent years, seemed to improve a bit under Strachan but look awful just now. I don’t share the view held by some that we’ve got some good players. They’re pretty mediocre all over the park by international standards.

It seems every country produces a great world class player every now and again but it’s literally been decades for us. I watch and support Scotland and go to the odd game but I can see why people don’t care about them.

Going from strachan to mcleish was never going to improve us short or long term

[OsloHibs]

Gylfi Sigurdsson is now 29.
I predict Iceland have one 4 year cycle left in their team before falling back into the also ran pack.

Nonsense. What has happened in Iceland national team the last few years is just the beginning. I'm very jealous!

[hibbydog]

Shouldn’t even bother having a national team any more.

It’s been a whole generation now since we made a tournament and for me the enthusiasm is just not there.

There were players there tonight were so bad it was embarrassing.

International breaks are awful

[Smartie]

Are at a new low? We had some pretty brutal teams in recent years, seemed to improve a bit under Strachan but look awful just now. I don’t share the view held by some that we’ve got some good players. They’re pretty mediocre all over the park by international standards.

It seems every country produces a great world class player every now and again but it’s literally been decades for us. I watch and support Scotland and go to the odd game but I can see why people don’t care about them.

You can take a bunch of fairly mediocre players and turn them into a stuffy unit that is hard to beat, only we can't even do that right now.

I'd back Hibs to beat that Scotland team. You could make a better back 3/ back 5 with Scottish Hibs players than you could with that rabble.

I think the main problem we have is that players would rather play for their club than play for Scotland - see the call-offs. Players will use Scotland as a necessary stepping stone to get a big bucks move and when they're earning big they don't give a hoot, leaving us with raw, eager but poorer players and disinterested primadonnas.

And I don't think changing manager can change that.

[SquashedFrogg]

Gylfi Sigurdsson is now 29.
I predict Iceland have one 4 year cycle left in their team before falling back into the also ran pack.

Head in the sand stuff I'm afraid. I would also love to know where Scotland are in relation to the 'also ran' pack?

[CMurdoch]

Head in the sand stuff I'm afraid. I would also love to know where Scotland are in relation to the 'also ran' pack?

We are in the also ran pack where we have been stuck since the beginning of time

[hibsbollah]

Nonsense. What has happened in Iceland national team the last few years is just the beginning. I'm very jealous!

:agree: They produce UEFA B qualified coaches at the same speed as Edinburgh council churns out traffic wardens. Andthefacilities they've built will inspire and produce players for generations. I'm in rural France at the moment. Every small town round here ten miles apart has a proper stadium with fenced off training pitches for the local schools/clubs. Every morning you drive past you see young players practicing in small groups, shooting on a proper surface. They want to improve and they have the opportunity to do so.

It's not complicated. Scotland needs to spend some proper money on infrastructure.

[murray26]

:agree: They produce UEFA B qualified coaches at the same speed as Edinburgh council churns out traffic wardens. Andthefacilities they've built will inspire and produce players for generations. I'm in rural France at the moment. Every small town round here ten miles apart has a proper stadium with fenced off training pitches for the local schools/clubs. Every morning you drive past you see young players practicing in small groups, shooting on a proper surface. They want to improve and they have the opportunity to do so.

It's not complicated. Scotland needs to spend some proper money on infrastructure.

👍

[G B Young]

Perceptions of Scotland's supposed potential are distorted by the fact we qualified for five World Cups in a row from the mid-70s to 1990. Looking at the wider picture we have actually played at well under half the World Cups which have been staged and qualified for only TWO European Championships. The reality is we are, for the most part, a minnow on the international stage.

A large percentage of fans now watching football at club and international level (as well as a very large number of players) will not have been born the last time Scotland played at a major tournament and, for them, being also-rans is the norm. The pressure comes from a large section of media/pundits who are old enough to remember when we did used to qualify and are therefore measuring today's teams against a long-gone golden era. They need to ditch this perception of Scotland as under-achievers and accept that we're down among the also-rans because we're simply not a significant football power. By doing so they might relieve the pressure on the team and give them some breathing space to improve over time rather than seeing the pressure ramped up to unrealistic levels every two years.

[Kato]

It's not complicated. Scotland needs to spend some proper money on infrastructure.


Been promised by the SFA since the Argentina debacle, never going to happen.

[tamig]

We are in the also ran pack where we have been stuck since the beginning of time

It hasn’t always been thus.

[silverhibee]

Should head hunt Shaun Maloney for the job.

[ancient hibee]

:agree: They produce UEFA B qualified coaches at the same speed as Edinburgh council churns out traffic wardens. Andthefacilities they've built will inspire and produce players for generations. I'm in rural France at the moment. Every small town round here ten miles apart has a proper stadium with fenced off training pitches for the local schools/clubs. Every morning you drive past you see young players practicing in small groups, shooting on a proper surface. They want to improve and they have the opportunity to do so.

It's not complicated. Scotland needs to spend some proper money on infrastructure.
Why do that when you can throw money away on a national stadium instead?

[Smartie]

Ole Gunnar Solsjkaer?

I was very impressed with the way he conducted himself when his team played us, and Molde looked a pretty well-drilled unit. Surely a national team job would be a step up from Molde? Michael O'Neill has raised his profile and got some decent offers as a result of doing well with Northern Ireland, who arguably don't have the players we have.

[G B Young]

Ole Gunnar Solsjkaer?

I was very impressed with the way he conducted himself when his team played us, and Molde looked a pretty well-drilled unit. Surely a national team job would be a step up from Molde? Michael O'Neill has raised his profile and got some decent offers as a result of doing well with Northern Ireland, who arguably don't have the players we have.

As has surely been proven now after 20 years of appointing a new manager every couple of years, it doesn't matter who you appoint if the players at your disposal are simply not good enough. They could probably go back to the days prior to the mid-1950s when the team was picked by an SFA selection committee and we'd fare little better or worse. Solskjaer wouldn't see the Scotland job as a good career move. As has been shown, our status is such that the Northern Ireland job now carries more appeal.

[Sir David Gray]

We are now at the point where we are seriously struggling to qualify from the 3rd division of European nations in a group involving Albania and Israel.

The only level below where we are right now is groups involving nations like Gibraltar, San Marino and Kosovo.

We are light years away from qualifying for a major tournament, never mind actually being competitive in one.

Changing the manager will achieve absolutely nothing. We need major changes to the entire structure of the way that football is run in this country. Until that happens, the national team would be as well being disbanded.

[Smartie]

As has surely been proven now after 20 years of appointing a new manager every couple of years, it doesn't matter who you appoint if the players at your disposal are simply not good enough. They could probably go back to the days prior to the mid-1950s when the team was picked by an SFA selection committee and we'd fare little better or worse. Solskjaer wouldn't see the Scotland job as a good career move. As has been shown, our status is such that the Northern Ireland job now carries more appeal.

To one Northern Irishman.

I don't think Scotland's problems are restricted to the manager's position, but I refuse to accept that the drivel served up over the past week is the best we can accept from the group of players eligible to play for Scotland.

The players either need to buck their ideas up and play for McLeish or he should be replaced.

Both performances over the past week were abject, with players looking lost, not knowing what their role was and not looking like they really want to be there.

Would that be the case with the same group of players under Solsjkaer? The Northern Ireland job has offered O'Neill a decent step up from Brechin via the Irish league to surely a good job next? Is it fantasy to consider that a manager being a relative success with Scotland could expect a similar career boost?

[blackpoolhibs]

We are now at the point where we are seriously struggling to qualify from the 3rd division of European nations in a group involving Albania and Israel.

The only level below where we are right now is groups involving nations like Gibraltar, San Marino and Kosovo.

We are light years away from qualifying for a major tournament, never mind actually being competitive in one.

Changing the manager will achieve absolutely nothing. We need major changes to the entire structure of the way that football is run in this country. Until that happens, the national team would be as well being disbanded.

I disagree, it appears McLeish has upset more than enough players already since coming in, and a physio if the rumours are correct.

Add in the way he's set the team up to accommodate one player, and with some of his team selections being very strange, i'd say a different manager would sort that out right away.

I agree we are poor, but to deliberately make us poorer is a sackable offence in my book, and he should go now.

[hibsbollah]

I disagree, it appears McLeish has upset more than enough players already since coming in, and a physio if the rumours are correct.

Add in the way he's set the team up to accommodate one player, and with some of his team selections being very strange, i'd say a different manager would sort that out right away.

I agree we are poor, but to deliberately make us poorer is a sackable offence in my book, and he should go now.

I agree with this. The ginger mess needs to go. Losing to a team like Israel is occasionally acceptable, poor teams sometime beat you on the counter, get lucky with a long range strike, defend like heroes, stuff like that. But, that didn't happen to us. We were systematically torn apart by Israel, where we couldn't have complained if we'd have lost 6-0. That's not acceptable.

Although it's also true as SDG says that our long term structural problems will continue to hold us back unless they're dealt with. At governmental level, probably.

[timewilltell]

Perceptions of Scotland's supposed potential are distorted by the fact we qualified for five World Cups in a row from the mid-70s to 1990. Looking at the wider picture we have actually played at well under half the World Cups which have been staged and qualified for only TWO European Championships. The reality is we are, for the most part, a minnow on the international stage.

A large percentage of fans now watching football at club and international level (as well as a very large number of players) will not have been born the last time Scotland played at a major tournament and, for them, being also-rans is the norm. The pressure comes from a large section of media/pundits who are old enough to remember when we did used to qualify and are therefore measuring today's teams against a long-gone golden era. They need to ditch this perception of Scotland as under-achievers and accept that we're down among the also-rans because we're simply not a significant football power. By doing so they might relieve the pressure on the team and give them some breathing space to improve over time rather than seeing the pressure ramped up to unrealistic levels every two years.

Very good accurate and realistic post. Well said.

[theonlywayisup]

We are now at the point where we are seriously struggling to qualify from the 3rd division of European nations in a group involving Albania and Israel.

The only level below where we are right now is groups involving nations like Gibraltar, San Marino and Kosovo.

We are light years away from qualifying for a major tournament, never mind actually being competitive in one.

Changing the manager will achieve absolutely nothing. We need major changes to the entire structure of the way that football is run in this country. Until that happens, the national team would be as well being disbanded.

Which is all the reason why I posted the original post? We're getting progressively worse and it's been like that for years. We've had more missions and initiatives than I've had hot dinners and yet nothing improves.

When is the time that we say enough is enough? A radical change to how football in the this country is run. I'm not talking about tinkering around the edges, but radical changes.

[Smartie]

Perceptions of Scotland's supposed potential are distorted by the fact we qualified for five World Cups in a row from the mid-70s to 1990. Looking at the wider picture we have actually played at well under half the World Cups which have been staged and qualified for only TWO European Championships. The reality is we are, for the most part, a minnow on the international stage.

A large percentage of fans now watching football at club and international level (as well as a very large number of players) will not have been born the last time Scotland played at a major tournament and, for them, being also-rans is the norm. The pressure comes from a large section of media/pundits who are old enough to remember when we did used to qualify and are therefore measuring today's teams against a long-gone golden era. They need to ditch this perception of Scotland as under-achievers and accept that we're down among the also-rans because we're simply not a significant football power. By doing so they might relieve the pressure on the team and give them some breathing space to improve over time rather than seeing the pressure ramped up to unrealistic levels every two years.

I don't think anyone expects Scotland to qualify for 5 finals in a row, or to reach the latter stages of a World Cup.

But if Croatia can reach a World Cup final, Wales can produce a player like Gareth Bale, Iceland can qualify for major finals with a small population and unkind climate for football, Greece, Denmark and Portugal all win the Euros - is it unreasonable to expect a football mad nation to do a wee bit better than it currently does?

Qualify for the finals 2-3 times every twenty years and once in a lifetime progress beyond the group stages?

[weecounty hibby]

Check out the 74 to 90 squads and then to todays squad and you will see the issue. Gone are the days of us having a squad full of players playing at top English clubs and even European clubs, European cup winners as well. Our players, generally, now would prefer an easy 10/15 k a week in Glasgow rather than working hard to get to the top clubs and really improving their game. We also have a totally **** manager who was past his sell by date 10 years ago

[jakedance]

I don't think anyone expects Scotland to qualify for 5 finals in a row, or to reach the latter stages of a World Cup.

But if Croatia can reach a World Cup final, Wales can produce a player like Gareth Bale, Iceland can qualify for major finals with a small population and unkind climate for football, Greece, Denmark and Portugal all win the Euros - is it unreasonable to expect a football mad nation to do a wee bit better than it currently does?

Qualify for the finals 2-3 times every twenty years and once in a lifetime progress beyond the group stages?

Spot on. Our small(ish) population is a tired old excuse. We’ve underperformed as a footballing nation for decades.

[Kato]

Check out the 74 to 90 squads and then to todays squad and you will see the issue. Gone are the days of us having a squad full of players playing at top English clubs and even European clubs, European cup winners as well. Our players, generally, now would prefer an easy 10/15 k a week in Glasgow rather than working hard to get to the top clubs and really improving their game. We also have a totally **** manager who was past his sell by date 10 years ago

Players don't go to top English clubs because not many of them are good enough. Updating the manager is like tinkering with the car horn when the vehicle is a right off.

[heretoday]

It's ridiculous that Britain punches so much above its weight in the Olympics but performs so poorly at football which we're all daft about.

[ancient hibee]

It's ridiculous that Britain punches so much above its weight in the Olympics but performs so poorly at football which we're all daft about.
Not really"It’s easier to develop brilliant individuals than develop a team of them.I wonder why top athletes,golfers etc can talk fluently about their sports and their place in it while so many footballers can scarcely string a couple of words together.

[Smartie]

Players don't go to top English clubs because not many of them are good enough. Updating the manager is like tinkering with the car horn when the vehicle is a right off.

Andy Robertson and Scott McTominay.

One played in a Champions League final last season, the other is jostling for a starting place at Man Utd with some of the most expensive players in the world.

For a small country there's a couple of players at top English clubs.

It's the failure to cobble together a solid defensive unit that really bugs me. Craig Brown used to take players every bit as average as we have now and put them together in a unit that gave very little away and gave us a chance at qualifying for stuff. We haven't done that for years, whereas teams like Wales and Northern Ireland have.

[Bishop Hibee]

It's ridiculous that Britain punches so much above its weight in the Olympics but performs so poorly at football which we're all daft about.

Most countries don’t give two hoots about rowing and velodrome cycling but most countries are mad about football.

I’m a paid up member of the Scotland Supporters Club and the performances under McLeish barring the game at home to Albania haven’t been good enough. McLeish will go if we don’t get 4 points from the next two fixtures.

Beyond that, the poor showing of the national team since qualifying for WC ‘98 has a myriad of reasons well covered in previous threads. As when Hibs went down recently, I cling onto the hope better days are somewhere down the line.

[tamig]

Andy Robertson and Scott McTominay.

One played in a Champions League final last season, the other is jostling for a starting place at Man Utd with some of the most expensive players in the world.

For a small country there's a couple of players at top English clubs.

It's the failure to cobble together a solid defensive unit that really bugs me. Craig Brown used to take players every bit as average as we have now and put them together in a unit that gave very little away and gave us a chance at qualifying for stuff. We haven't done that for years, whereas teams like Wales and Northern Ireland have.
Thats only two players. It doesn’t seem that long ago that sll of the major English sides had at least two or three Scots as key men. We don’t produce players of that calibre in sufficient numbers any more. McTominay like quite a few of the other recent English top flight players involved with Scotland isn’t even Scottish by birth.

[G B Young]

To one Northern Irishman.

I don't think Scotland's problems are restricted to the manager's position, but I refuse to accept that the drivel served up over the past week is the best we can accept from the group of players eligible to play for Scotland.

The players either need to buck their ideas up and play for McLeish or he should be replaced.

Both performances over the past week were abject, with players looking lost, not knowing what their role was and not looking like they really want to be there.

Would that be the case with the same group of players under Solsjkaer? The Northern Ireland job has offered O'Neill a decent step up from Brechin via the Irish league to surely a good job next? Is it fantasy to consider that a manager being a relative success with Scotland could expect a similar career boost?

O'Neill was seemingly the highest calibre manager we felt we could attract. Of those who actually applied, were there better candidates and if there were how come we ended up re-appointing McLeish? If he really was the next best choice then it surely indicates that the Scotland job has long lost any appeal it had to genuinely promising managers hoping to further their careers.

Again with regard to Solskjaer, has he not already managed in the English Premiership? IIRC he was in charge when Cardiff got relegated. Given how successful (and therefore secure) he is at Molde I find it hard to imagine he'd gamble on such a thankless job as the Scotland one were he looking for a route back to bigger things.

[G B Young]

I don't think anyone expects Scotland to qualify for 5 finals in a row, or to reach the latter stages of a World Cup.

But if Croatia can reach a World Cup final, Wales can produce a player like Gareth Bale, Iceland can qualify for major finals with a small population and unkind climate for football, Greece, Denmark and Portugal all win the Euros - is it unreasonable to expect a football mad nation to do a wee bit better than it currently does?

Qualify for the finals 2-3 times every twenty years and once in a lifetime progress beyond the group stages?

If that was the genuine expectation (and I agree it shouldn't be unrealistic) maybe we'd have a better chance of achieving it. As I said earlier, there are still plenty who seem to think we should be good enough to qualify every time which is part of the reason we fail every time.

[Smartie]

Thats only two players. It doesn’t seem that long ago that sll of the major English sides had at least two or three Scots as key men. We don’t produce players of that calibre in sufficient numbers any more. McTominay like quite a few of the other recent English top flight players involved with Scotland isn’t even Scottish by birth.

In those days we used to laugh at the African nations for having the temerity to turn up at a World Cup - now they're turning out world class players.

Comparing the Scotland of now to the Scotland of the past isn't something that is constructive.

Asking why we can't produce better players in greater numbers, or asking why we can't do more with the players we have at our disposal are the questions we should legitimately be asking of ourselves.

[offshorehibby]

O'Neill was seemingly the highest calibre manager we felt we could attract. Of those who actually applied, were there better candidates and if there were how come we ended up re-appointing McLeish? If he really was the next best choice then it surely indicates that the Scotland job has long lost any appeal it had to genuinely promising managers hoping to further their careers.

Again with regard to Solskjaer, has he not already managed in the English Premiership? IIRC he was in charge when Cardiff got relegated. Given how successful (and therefore secure) he is at Molde I find it hard to imagine he'd gamble on such a thankless job as the Scotland one were he looking for a route back to bigger things.

Shh, keep quite about Solskjaer, i've got him down as a possible Lennon replacement when he eventually leaves. :greengrin

[Unseen work]

Think we do have good players and should be performing a lot better. It’s just the manager knowing his squad/players performing well at their clubs and getting a system that suits.

.................McGregor...........

.........Devlin...McKenna....Tierney.....

Forrest.....McGinn...Cairney.......Robertson

.......................Armstrong............

.......................Griffiths.........?????

Reluctant to put Naismith in because I dislike him but he has scored 3 goals in last 2 games.

Imo that squad is very strong and that’s not including numerous very good players.

Think Devlin is a very good centre half and formed a good partnership with McKenna at Aberdeen.

Struggling for a right back.

John Fleck
Ryan Fraser
McTominay
Callum McGregor
Graeme Shinnie
Matt Phillips
Barry Douglas
Kenny McLean
Ryan Jack
Callum Paterson
Barrie McKay
Stuart Findlay
John Soutar
Ryan Porteous
David Bates
Jason Cummings
Liam Cooper
Oli Burke
Oli McBurnie
Stephen O’Donnell
Jack Hendry

That squad and list of players, some young with potential that are all talented and capable of producing much better performances/results than we should be getting.

No one is telling me we can’t do or don’t have the players to achieve what Northern Ireland have recently.

[Smartie]

If that was the genuine expectation (and I agree it shouldn't be unrealistic) maybe we'd have a better chance of achieving it. As I said earlier, there are still plenty who seem to think we should be good enough to qualify every time which is part of the reason we fail every time.

You do make a fair point then.

Do we need to lower our expectations in order to actually achieve more?

Do we need to go easier on the managers and players?

It often bugs me that players don't always appear to want to play for Scotland, but maybe we shouldn't blame them? Earning big bucks and being a relative success at your club vs taking grief playing for your country?

The England players finally look like they are enjoying playing for England, and to be fair most of ours had started to do so under Strachan.

We need to get back there asap though.