Decline of Scottish National Football Team

[tamig]

In those days we used to laugh at the African nations for having the temerity to turn up at a World Cup - now they're turning out world class players.

Comparing the Scotland of now to the Scotland of the past isn't something that is constructive.

Asking why we can't produce better players in greater numbers, or asking why we can't do more with the players we have at our disposal are the questions we should legitimately be asking of ourselves.

And is the answer not in the grass roots structure? Other countries have invested in it over many years and are now reaping the rewards. We don’t invest in grass roots at any significant levels from what I can see. It needs change driven from the top. The SFA need to drive it but I don’t think the current office bearers have shown anything to indicate they are up to the task. Major change required.

[Smartie]

And is the answer not in the grass roots structure? Other countries have invested in it over many years and are now reaping the rewards. We don’t invest in grass roots at any significant levels from what I can see. It needs change driven from the top. The SFA need to drive it but I don’t think the current office bearers have shown anything to indicate they are up to the task. Major change required.

I honestly don't know, as I know very little about grass roots football.

It gets criticised often enough, but most of the stuff I hear about clubs like Spartans, Hibs, Hearts, their coaching and facilities is overwhelmingly positive. I know there are lots of good, capable people knocking their pan in to help at grass roots level who are surely not deserving of criticism just because our senior team played the way it did over the past week.

[Mibbes Aye]

And is the answer not in the grass roots structure? Other countries have invested in it over many years and are now reaping the rewards. We don’t invest in grass roots at any significant levels from what I can see. It needs change driven from the top. The SFA need to drive it but I don’t think the current office bearers have shown anything to indicate they are up to the task. Major change required.

I think there are a whole combination of thing that have caused what we see as a decline. In no particular order:

Lack of investment in grassroots for a long period (though in fairness community clubs can and do access funding and slowly but surely we are seeing good training pitches being built)

A culture where young boys simply don't play with a football in the park or down the side of the flats or whatever (numerous reasons for that - more cars on the road, more options to watch something on your tablet or gaming on your console)

Still a culture shift required in child and youth coaching. While a lot of coaches follow the pathway and encourage playing for enjoyment not for winning in the early years, that dissipates and by the time they get to eleven-a-side coaches are far more likely to be results-focused. There's an argument that it's fair to encourage a winning mentality, which I get, but it also alienates a lot of boys who maybe were later developers and would have made a fist of it instead of becoming disillusioned because they weren't regularly getting being picked to play at the age of 12 or 13.

Allied to that, but also prevalent in the senior game, an impatience with just learning to be good at keeping the ball, moving it on and moving well when you don't have it. Too many people want and praise mazy dribblers to an extent that players feel under pressure to be too quick, to try too many tricks, or the whistles and shouts start when trying to keep the ball and work a space.

Playing in a less frenzied environment allows players just to get comfortable with the ball and off the ball and once they've accomplished that they can then work on upping the tempo. One of the worst football-related shouts I've heard at ER was last season. Barker was playing, the ball came to him and somebody behind me shouted "Now get your head down and run!!!". It was utterly dispiriting. There is a place for players who can beat a man to exploit space or create an overload but any decently-coached team will generally be able to lessen the impact of that.

In regard to the point about Scottish players in the EPL, Bosman opened up markets and made EPL teams far more likely to scout internationally and in greater quantities. What is disappointing though is that young Scottish players don't seem to go in any great numbers to the continent.

And while not making excuses for Scotland, there's got to be something about the increased level of competition from Eastern Europe. When Dalglish and Souness were in their pomp, we had Yugoslavia for example. Since the early 1990s we've had Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia and Bosnia all qualifying for World Cups and Euros and similarly with the former Soviet states, more countries. Czechoslavakia broke into two nations that have qualified for major tournaments also.

[MWHIBBIES]

As has surely been proven now after 20 years of appointing a new manager every couple of years, it doesn't matter who you appoint if the players at your disposal are simply not good enough. They could probably go back to the days prior to the mid-1950s when the team was picked by an SFA selection committee and we'd fare little better or worse. Solskjaer wouldn't see the Scotland job as a good career move. As has been shown, our status is such that the Northern Ireland job now carries more appeal. Scotland haven't appointed new managers for 20, they've appointed the same manager.

Burley, Levein, McLeish, Smith, Strachan. They're all the same person. Boring, boring boring.

The manager and coaching staff at the important thing. You actually think northern Ireland or Iceland have better players? I don't. I think they have proper managers and coaching staff and proper productive setups in place to produce a solid team where everyone is comfortable and plays the same way.

[CMurdoch]

Nonsense. What has happened in Iceland national team the last few years is just the beginning. I'm very jealous!

That will be the same Iceland team who are getting relegated for finishing bottom of their Nations League Group.
Slowly but surely back into the pack.

[Phil MaGlass]

Scotland haven't appointed new managers for 20, they've appointed the same manager.

Burley, Levein, McLeish, Smith, Strachan. They're all the same person. Boring, boring boring.

The manager and coaching staff at the important thing. You actually think northern Ireland or Iceland have better players? I don't. I think they have proper managers and coaching staff and proper productive setups in place to produce a solid team where everyone is comfortable and plays the same way.

This in spades, funny you pick up on it, as when I turned on the telly and saw these faces in the dugout I thought were screwed, same old, same old. Exact same.
I even heard someone say yes McLeish knows the Scottish game, thats the f,n problem, these guys only know the Scottish game, its just no good enough. God knows what they are churning oot in Largs, it certainly isnt properly qualified coaches thats for sure.
I do believe we have enough good players to pick a winning team, just our managers dont know how to do it.

[G B Young]

This in spades, funny you pick up on it, as when I turned on the telly and saw these faces in the dugout I thought were screwed, same old, same old. Exact same.
I even heard someone say yes McLeish knows the Scottish game, thats the f,n problem, these guys only know the Scottish game, its just no good enough. God knows what they are churning oot in Largs, it certainly isnt properly qualified coaches thats for sure.
I do believe we have enough good players to pick a winning team, just our managers dont know how to do it.

That's simply not true. McLeish won promotion with Birmingham, took them to a top 10 finish in the Premiership and won the League Cup (only the second major trophy in their history). Burley and Strachan enjoyed terrific playing careers in England, winning titles, cups and European trophies. IIRC Burley was manager of the year in England and Strachan took Southampton to the FA Cup final. Granted, Smith didn't manage in England but he had a great managerial grounding under Jim McLean and was obviously an outstanding Rangers boss. The only Scot on that list who looked short of experience for the Scotland job was Levein and he duly turned out to be the biggest dud of the lot.

Missing from that list is Berti, a World Cup winner as a player and a European Championship winner as a national manager. There's surely no question he know what constituted a successful football team, but like all the rest the Scotland job offered him so little in terms of playing talent that he also crashed and burned.

On paper, all bar Levein were sound enough appointments. That they all failed has to come down to a lack of good players.

[G B Young]

Scotland haven't appointed new managers for 20, they've appointed the same manager.

Burley, Levein, McLeish, Smith, Strachan. They're all the same person. Boring, boring boring.

The manager and coaching staff at the important thing. You actually think northern Ireland or Iceland have better players? I don't. I think they have proper managers and coaching staff and proper productive setups in place to produce a solid team where everyone is comfortable and plays the same way.

In what way is Michael O'Neill more of a 'proper' manager than any of those guys? They all had far more experience of club management than him before taking the Scotland job. I know nothing about the Iceland boss but a check on wiki reveals him to be a qualified dentist whose managerial career appears to have alternated between the men's and women's IBV teams.

As for the coaching set-ups I don't claim to know anything about the NI and Iceland structures, but do the Scotland age level teams not all try to play to a similar system? Seems to me the only one of our teams which has shown signs of improvement is the women's side.

[Bangkok Hibby]

That's simply not true. McLeish won promotion with Birmingham, took them to a top 10 finish in the Premiership and won the League Cup (only the second major trophy in their history). Burley and Strachan enjoyed terrific playing careers in England, winning titles, cups and European trophies. IIRC Burley was manager of the year in England and Strachan took Southampton to the FA Cup final. Granted, Smith didn't manage in England but he had a great managerial grounding under Jim McLean and was obviously an outstanding Rangers boss. The only Scot on that list who looked short of experience for the Scotland job was Levein and he duly turned out to be the biggest dud of the lot.

Missing from that list is Berti, a World Cup winner as a player and a European Championship winner as a national manager. There's surely no question he know what constituted a successful football team, but like all the rest the Scotland job offered him so little in terms of playing talent that he also crashed and burned.

On paper, all bar Levein were sound enough appointments. That they all failed has to come down to a lack of good players.

Manager of Everton. Assistant manager at Man Utd.

[theonlywayisup]

Think we do have good players and should be performing a lot better. It’s just the manager knowing his squad/players performing well at their clubs and getting a system that suits.

.................McGregor...........

.........Devlin...McKenna....Tierney.....

Forrest.....McGinn...Cairney.......Robertson

.......................Armstrong............

.......................Griffiths.........?????

Reluctant to put Naismith in because I dislike him but he has scored 3 goals in last 2 games.

Imo that squad is very strong and that’s not including numerous very good players.

Think Devlin is a very good centre half and formed a good partnership with McKenna at Aberdeen.

Struggling for a right back.

John Fleck
Ryan Fraser
McTominay
Callum McGregor
Graeme Shinnie
Matt Phillips
Barry Douglas
Kenny McLean
Ryan Jack
Callum Paterson
Barrie McKay
Stuart Findlay
John Soutar
Ryan Porteous
David Bates
Jason Cummings
Liam Cooper
Oli Burke
Oli McBurnie
Stephen O’Donnell
Jack Hendry

That squad and list of players, some young with potential that are all talented and capable of producing much better performances/results than we should be getting.

No one is telling me we can’t do or don’t have the players to achieve what Northern Ireland have recently.

What a depressing list of players. No wonder why Scotland are so poor if that's the best we've got.

Very few of those players would have made it in to the squads that were around in the 70s and 80s. The lack of quality centre backs, wingers and strikers is the main problem areas.

[Allant1981]

What a depressing list of players. No wonder why Scotland are so poor if that's the best we've got.

Very few of those players would have made it in to the squads that were around in the 70s and 80s. The lack of quality centre backs, wingers and strikers is the main problem areas.

the teams in the 70's and 80's werent that great either with all our "quality" players

[MWHIBBIES]

In what way is Michael O'Neill more of a 'proper' manager than any of those guys? They all had far more experience of club management than him before taking the Scotland job. I know nothing about the Iceland boss but a check on wiki reveals him to be a qualified dentist whose managerial career appears to have alternated between the men's and women's IBV teams.

As for the coaching set-ups I don't claim to know anything about the NI and Iceland structures, but do the Scotland age level teams not all try to play to a similar system? Seems to me the only one of our teams which has shown signs of improvement is the women's side.He's more of a proper manager in the way that he has ideas that the players have bought into and have worked. He's new and interesting and was given proper time to work, not washed up like McLeish and Strachan who are punted after one campaign when its clear there is no signs of progress.

Iceland had Lars Lagerback and Heimer Hallgrimsson (the dentist you're talking about) until recently. Lagerback an experienced manager who took Sweden to 4 major tournaments and Hallgrimsson a younger coach who learned from him and learned the set-up over many years before becoming joint manager and eventually sole manager for the world cup as Largerback stepped down after the Euros. He left after the world cup and they brought in Erik Harmen, another experienced manager who has taken Sweden to 2 major tournaments.

In what way are Scotland anywhere near as organised as Iceland? That's a country with a blueprint who have dragged themselves from laughing stock to Euro quarter finals and a world cup.

Doesn't matter if the bloke is a dentist, the players bought into his ideas because he learned and progressed along with them from a very good, experienced manager. Meanwhile Scotland were farting about trying to bring back has beens like Smith and McLeish. There is no plan with Scotland, no foresight, no leadership.

[G B Young]

Manager of Everton. Assistant manager at Man Utd.

Right enough! Forgot about that, cheers :-)

[G B Young]

He's more of a proper manager in the way that he has ideas that the players have bought into and have worked. He's new and interesting and was given proper time to work, not washed up like McLeish and Strachan who are punted after one campaign when its clear there is no signs of progress.

Iceland had Lars Lagerback and Heimer Hallgrimsson (the dentist you're talking about) until recently. Lagerback an experienced manager who took Sweden to 4 major tournaments and Hallgrimsson a younger coach who learned from him and learned the set-up over many years before becoming joint manager and eventually sole manager for the world cup as Largerback stepped down after the Euros. He left after the world cup and they brought in Erik Harmen, another experienced manager who has taken Sweden to 2 major tournaments.

In what way are Scotland anywhere near as organised as Iceland? That's a country with a blueprint who have dragged themselves from laughing stock to Euro quarter finals and a world cup.

Doesn't matter if the bloke is a dentist, the players bought into his ideas because he learned and progressed along with them from a very good, experienced manager. Meanwhile Scotland were farting about trying to bring back has beens like Smith and McLeish. There is no plan with Scotland, no foresight, no leadership.

Strachan was in charge of two-and-a-half campaigns. McLeish wasn't punted. Like Smith he was offered a club job and took it. I agree though that bringing him back, coupled with the clamour from some to bring Smith back, was a retrograde step.

Fair points regarding Iceland. I wasn't intending to demean Hallgrimsson by referring to him being a dentist, it was more to point out that his CV wouldn't strike most observers as that of a guy likely to make a successful international manager. But then, as you say, it just shows you what can be achieved if someone is given time to learn and develop ideas. Talking of which, O'Neill made an appalling start as NI boss, something like one win in 20 games, so again it seems that giving an inexperienced guy time to learn reaped its rewards. Incidentally, I think he's an accountancy graduate so perhaps, like Hallgrimsson, academic intelligence can play a part in successful international football management??

As I said in an earlier post, Scotland's problem is that there is a still a large body of pundits and fans who don't seem to accept that we're now a nation of lesser international standing than the likes of NI and Iceland. Iceland's expectations were, until fairly recently, extremely low, so if Scotland could perhaps adopt a less entitled mentality and see qualification for a major tournament as less of a 'right' and more a long-term goal the easing of pressure to deliver instant success would surely be a good thing.

[MWHIBBIES]

Strachan was in charge of two-and-a-half campaigns. McLeish wasn't punted. Like Smith he was offered a club job and took it. I agree though that bringing him back, coupled with the clamour from some to bring Smith back, was a retrograde step.

Fair points regarding Iceland. I wasn't intending to demean Hallgrimsson by referring to him being a dentist, it was more to point out that his CV wouldn't strike most observers as that of a guy likely to make a successful international manager. But then, as you say, it just shows you what can be achieved if someone is given time to learn and develop ideas. Talking of which, O'Neill made an appalling start as NI boss, something like one win in 20 games, so again it seems that giving an inexperienced guy time to learn reaped its rewards. Incidentally, I think he's an accountancy graduate so perhaps, like Hallgrimsson, academic intelligence can play a part in successful international football management??

As I said in an earlier post, Scotland's problem is that there is a still a large body of pundits and fans who don't seem to accept that we're now a nation of lesser international standing than the likes of NI and Iceland. Iceland's expectations were, until fairly recently, extremely low, so if Scotland could perhaps adopt a less entitled mentality and see qualification for a major tournament as less of a 'right' and more a long-term goal the easing of pressure to deliver instant success would surely be a good thing.I agree with what you're saying. Scotland are dreadful, that must be accepted to move forward. No more appointments to fill gaps and plug holes. Back to square one with a proper plan to move forward.

[Smartie]

Strachan was in charge of two-and-a-half campaigns. McLeish wasn't punted. Like Smith he was offered a club job and took it. I agree though that bringing him back, coupled with the clamour from some to bring Smith back, was a retrograde step.

Fair points regarding Iceland. I wasn't intending to demean Hallgrimsson by referring to him being a dentist, it was more to point out that his CV wouldn't strike most observers as that of a guy likely to make a successful international manager. But then, as you say, it just shows you what can be achieved if someone is given time to learn and develop ideas. Talking of which, O'Neill made an appalling start as NI boss, something like one win in 20 games, so again it seems that giving an inexperienced guy time to learn reaped its rewards. Incidentally, I think he's an accountancy graduate so perhaps, like Hallgrimsson, academic intelligence can play a part in successful international football management??

As I said in an earlier post, Scotland's problem is that there is a still a large body of pundits and fans who don't seem to accept that we're now a nation of lesser international standing than the likes of NI and Iceland. Iceland's expectations were, until fairly recently, extremely low, so if Scotland could perhaps adopt a less entitled mentality and see qualification for a major tournament as less of a 'right' and more a long-term goal the easing of pressure to deliver instant success would surely be a good thing.

I also don't think a dentist would last 5 minutes in football management in this country. Look at the problems Steven Kenny and Paul Le Guen encountered. There is no way a dentist (perfectly capable or otherwise) could command respect in a Scottish changing room due to the culture of our game - and that is the players' problem, not his.

"Whit dis he ken aboot fitba?"

More than you, and he's your boss. Get on with it you shower of entitled pricks.

[Peevemor]

I also don't think a dentist would last 5 minutes in football management in this country. Look at the problems Steven Kenny and Paul Le Guen encountered. There is no way a dentist (perfectly capable or otherwise) could command respect in a Scottish changing room due to the culture of our game - and that is the players' problem, not his.

"Whit dis he ken aboot fitba?"

More than you, and he's your boss. Get on with it you shower of entitled pricks.

Paul le Guen's brother is my pal's dentist (no joke).

[SChibs]

I think friendlies against teams lower in the rankings would benefit Scotland. Get the players used to attacking and scoring goals rather than being dominated by the likes of Portugal, Mexico, Belgium etc. We hardly get the ball against these teams so we don't practice getting forward much.

It's not going to completely turn us around but it would be a step in the right direction imo.

[Hibrandenburg]

That's simply not true. McLeish won promotion with Birmingham, took them to a top 10 finish in the Premiership and won the League Cup (only the second major trophy in their history). Burley and Strachan enjoyed terrific playing careers in England, winning titles, cups and European trophies. IIRC Burley was manager of the year in England and Strachan took Southampton to the FA Cup final. Granted, Smith didn't manage in England but he had a great managerial grounding under Jim McLean and was obviously an outstanding Rangers boss. The only Scot on that list who looked short of experience for the Scotland job was Levein and he duly turned out to be the biggest dud of the lot.

Missing from that list is Berti, a World Cup winner as a player and a European Championship winner as a national manager. There's surely no question he know what constituted a successful football team, but like all the rest the Scotland job offered him so little in terms of playing talent that he also crashed and burned.

On paper, all bar Levein were sound enough appointments. That they all failed has to come down to a lack of good players.

Berti got found out after the team he inherited from Beckenbauer past it's sell by date. The same can now be seen with Jogi Löwe, he inherited his world cup winning side from Klinsmann but it's falling apart because he just doesn't have the know how to replace his ageing team.

[bingo70]

I think friendlies against teams lower in the rankings would benefit Scotland. Get the players used to attacking and scoring goals rather than being dominated by the likes of Portugal, Mexico, Belgium etc. We hardly get the ball against these teams so we don't practice getting forward much.

It's not going to completely turn us around but it would be a step in the right direction imo.

Completely agree.

IMO these daft friendlies have gone a long way to destroying the confidence and momentum that had started to build under Strachan.

Who would it be that decides these friendlies? Would we have received a lot of money for playing them?

I'd like to think it wasn't the case but from the outside looking in it looks to me like the south america jaunt at the end of the season would only really benefit the blazers who would get a free holiday and the games against Belgium and Portugal would be so that they could meet some of the best players in the world.

I don't think there would have been one thing we could take from these games that we could use when playing teams of an equivalent standard to us in the European League.

[SChibs]

Completely agree.

IMO these daft friendlies have gone a long way to destroying the confidence and momentum that had started to build under Strachan.

Who would it be that decides these friendlies? Would we have received a lot of money for playing them?

I'd like to think it wasn't the case but from the outside looking in it looks to me like the south america jaunt at the end of the season would only really benefit the blazers who would get a free holiday and the games against Belgium and Portugal would be so that they could meet some of the best players in the world.

I don't think there would have been one thing we could take from these games that we could use when playing teams of an equivalent standard to us in the European League.

To flip it on its head we are the weaker team these other sides are using to build confidence. Fair enough play a better team every so often to test us against better players but yo play 4 of these games in a row is almost worthless

[Ozyhibby]

It’s not just facilities that are the problem. We need coaches. In Iceland you need a UEFA B license just to coach under 10’s. It’s not needed at all here unless you coach pro youth.
The SFA see providing coaching courses as a money spinner. They charge a fortune for them.
The Germans charge less than half what the SFA charge.
I coach in youth footy but class myself as just a parent helper. I have seen the difference bringing in a great coach can make for kids.
We will never improve until we start providing top quality coaches for kids.


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[bingo70]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45878767

These sort of articles really annoy me.

We're not *****, it's just our expectations are too high? I don't think our expectations could currently be any lower? Is he asking us just to accept being crap because, frankly, we are?

He's obviously sticking up for his mate as best he can but what really is the point in that story? He's not everyones cup of tea but i'm far more interested in what the likes of Chris Sutton has to say when it comes to matters like these, at least he'll give an honest opinion.

Other depressing thing from that article is that Lambert will probably be one of the leading candidates to get the job when Mcleish inevitably moves on shortly.

[MWHIBBIES]

Berti got found out after the team he inherited from Beckenbauer past it's sell by date. The same can now be seen with Jogi Löwe, he inherited his world cup winning side from Klinsmann but it's falling apart because he just doesn't have the know how to replace his ageing team.

Klinsmann left Germany in 2006, after only 2 years. Germany won the world cup in 2014. Only 5 players that won the world cup played under Klinsmann. Lowe build that team and he's the one failing to replace it now.

Guardiola had more impact on the 2014 Germany team than Klinsmann tbh.

[ian cruise]

Most countries don’t give two hoots about rowing and velodrome cycling but most countries are mad about football.

I’m a paid up member of the Scotland Supporters Club and the performances under McLeish barring the game at home to Albania haven’t been good enough. McLeish will go if we don’t get 4 points from the next two fixtures.

Beyond that, the poor showing of the national team since qualifying for WC ‘98 has a myriad of reasons well covered in previous threads. As when Hibs went down recently, I cling onto the hope better days are somewhere down the line.

Regarding the success GB has had with cycling, that's exactly the model Scottish Football needs to follow. They ripped apart the whole UK cycling model and started again.

Created an academy to make sure they could work with and monitor the best young cyclists, employ world class coaches to make sure they nurtured their potential, gave them top class facilities to train and learn, looked at other sports and industries to see what technology they could use that others were not to give them the upper hand. It was based on the moneyball approach, great book and film by the way, where you looked for marginal gains instead of immediate success.

The national coach get very little time with players so there no point getting in some e who's brilliant on the training ground or excellent at maintaining fitness within the group over season. You need someone who understands tactics and can motivate players. Look at the opposition and find their weaknesses, find a formation to take advantage of those and counteract their strengths and pick the layers who fit that position best. If that means you leave out a "better" player for someone who is more industrious and would fit the role better so be it. England failed over the last few decades because they kept trying to squeeze their big names in to one starting 11, even though it appeared they could perform as a unit.

[Onceinawhile]

It’s not just facilities that are the problem. We need coaches. In Iceland you need a UEFA B license just to coach under 10’s. It’s not needed at all here unless you coach pro youth.
The SFA see providing coaching courses as a money spinner. They charge a fortune for them.
The Germans charge less than half what the SFA charge.
I coach in youth footy but class myself as just a parent helper. I have seen the difference bringing in a great coach can make for kids.
We will never improve until we start providing top quality coaches for kids.


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It's only £45 for level 1.1 and £60 for level 1.2 and 1.3

So to get up to level 1.3 it's only £165 for 30 hours of courses - doesn't seem too expensive? Although level 2 and Advanced children's licence are a bit more expensive.

[hibsbollah]

It's only £45 for level 1.1 and £60 for level 1.2 and 1.3

So to get up to level 1.3 it's only £165 for 30 hours of courses - doesn't seem too expensive? Although level 2 and Advanced children's licence are a bit more expensive.

Thats only giving you the absolute basics. And for a decent sized boys club you're going to have multiple coaches for multiple age groups and abilities. So a thousand pounds for six coaches to get to level two. That's a lot when you have a lot of other financial demands. The SFA are absolutely raking it in from the boys clubs whilst providing duplicate, competent but essentially repetitive 'how to' coaching they call The Pathway that in most cases you can get as good off you tube.

[Ozyhibby]

It's only £45 for level 1.1 and £60 for level 1.2 and 1.3

So to get up to level 1.3 it's only £165 for 30 hours of courses - doesn't seem too expensive? Although level 2 and Advanced children's licence are a bit more expensive.

Those are ‘Dads’ courses though. They are very basic. The standard that other countries are educating their coaches to are much higher.
I was head coach of my sons team until about 2 months ago. We were struggling badly even though I felt we had a lot of decent wee players.
Every week I would try and work out where we are going wrong, moving kids around, changing formation etc. Nothing was working and I was beginning to think maybe some of the kids should be in a lower team.
We got very lucky when a new kid pitched up who’s dad was an ex pro and had his UEFA A license. We immediately started to ask if he could help out and eventually persuaded him to become head coach.
The difference he has made in two short months is massive. All the kids are playing with confidence again and results have followed. None of them now look out of place in that team and their improvement is massive, including my own lad.
That’s just one team though and it was just dumb luck that he chose our team for his kid but if we could do that with every kids team in the country I guarantee that the quality of player we produce would massively improve.


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[Smartie]

Those are ‘Dads’ courses though. They are very basic. The standard that other countries are educating their coaches to are much higher.
I was head coach of my sons team until about 2 months ago. We were struggling badly even though I felt we had a lot of decent wee players.
Every week I would try and work out where we are going wrong, moving kids around, changing formation etc. Nothing was working and I was beginning to think maybe some of the kids should be in a lower team.
We got very lucky when a new kid pitched up who’s dad was an ex pro and had his UEFA A license. We immediately started to ask if he could help out and eventually persuaded him to become head coach.
The difference he has made in two short months is massive. All the kids are playing with confidence again and results have followed. None of them now look out of place in that team and their improvement is massive, including my own lad.
That’s just one team though and it was just dumb luck that he chose our team for his kid but if we could do that with every kids team in the country I guarantee that the quality of player we produce would massively improve.


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This is quite an interesting story.

I don't know a great deal about kids coaching - what specifically does this guy do differently or better than you did?

[silverhibee]

This is quite an interesting story.

I don't know a great deal about kids coaching - what specifically does this guy do differently or better than you did?

I would guess being a ex pro would be the big factor, knowledge experience and he has been trained by coaches himself and will know how to treat different individuals at training and games, as Ozzy has said, he took over his sons team and had to learn it in a few months, ex pro walks in and he will be able to see where it is going wrong and work to make it better.

[Ozyhibby]

This is quite an interesting story.

I don't know a great deal about kids coaching - what specifically does this guy do differently or better than you did?

Very hard to say that it was any one thing as he changed loads. The way he built training sessions with very clear objectives aimed improving the way we play the game on a Sunday was probably the biggest factor but there were other things like the way he speaks to the boys like they are footballers and even the way they warm up before games. There were loads of changes.
I was not a novice coach either, I have coached these kids for 7 years since they were 5 and we have done well all through 4-a-side and 7-a-side. We also sent 5 kids to pro youth. There are few other great parent coaches involved as well and we done ok but every time we have managed to get in a proper coach you realise the difference it can make.


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[hibsbollah]

Those are ‘Dads’ courses though. They are very basic. The standard that other countries are educating their coaches to are much higher.
I was head coach of my sons team until about 2 months ago. We were struggling badly even though I felt we had a lot of decent wee players.
Every week I would try and work out where we are going wrong, moving kids around, changing formation etc. Nothing was working and I was beginning to think maybe some of the kids should be in a lower team.
We got very lucky when a new kid pitched up who’s dad was an ex pro and had his UEFA A license. We immediately started to ask if he could help out and eventually persuaded him to become head coach.
The difference he has made in two short months is massive. All the kids are playing with confidence again and results have followed. None of them now look out of place in that team and their improvement is massive, including my own lad.
That’s just one team though and it was just dumb luck that he chose our team for his kid but if we could do that with every kids team in the country I guarantee that the quality of player we produce would massively improve.


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I think the way you describe this situation reflects well on you to be honest. From my experience in kids football, dads that get sent on the SFA level one often come back thinking they're some sort of tactical genius and their egos start to visibly grow. Very few people in that world actually knows their limitations, it sounds like you are the exception.

An ex pro doesn't always translate into a good manager or coach, of course; an ex-semi pro dad of one of my players recently decided to put an upset kid in a headlock and rubbed his head in an attempt to give a bit of a 'banter' and the kid stormed off in tears because it hurt him! The dad was probably mortified, and he knows what he's doing in terms of technique etc, but I'm not sure he's very good at motivating or inspiring people. Lots of footballers don't understand what it was that made them good or how their skills worked in a team environment.

And of course, coaching U11s is very different from 14+.

[Smartie]

Very hard to say that it was any one thing as he changed loads. The way he built training sessions with very clear objectives aimed improving the way we play the game on a Sunday was probably the biggest factor but there were other things like the way he speaks to the boys like they are footballers and even the way they warm up before games. There were loads of changes.
I was not a novice coach either, I have coached these kids for 7 years since they were 5 and we have done well all through 4-a-side and 7-a-side. We also sent 5 kids to pro youth. There are few other great parent coaches involved as well and we done ok but every time we have managed to get in a proper coach you realise the difference it can make.


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Do you think that the stuff he has done is unique to him, or is it stuff you can pick up and take forward?

Rather than getting in better coaches, could we not just keep on developing the likes of yourself to add to what you already have?

Do the players respond a bit better to being coached by a glamorous ex-pro rather than Boab's Dad?

I maintain that what we lack most are people like yourself - volunteers who facilitate the playing of football, whether it is a Dad being prepared to kick a ball with his kid in the park/ garden or helping out at something more organised. We need to get as many people as possible playing the game and loving the game and I don't think we do it enough. The fancier coaching exists and is in place for those lucky/ good enough to make the grade.

[majorhibs]

Sorry no time for thread in depth, decline of Scotland was roxburgh followed by brown negative disasters exact same as disaster a miller for Hibs. Excuses for coaches with excuses & negativity before balls kicked! Sorry but that was them! Despise what they did to the teams I follow. If you paid attention then you’ll realise this. These jokers tried to excuse they’re failures before they’d even happened, & it ruined any chance of moving forward, with these useless apologists running the show.

[Tornadoes70]

Sorry no time for thread in depth, decline of Scotland was roxburgh followed by brown negative disasters exact same as disaster a miller for Hibs. Excuses for coaches with excuses & negativity before balls kicked! Sorry but that was them! Despise what they did to the teams I follow. If you paid attention then you’ll realise this. These jokers tried to excuse they’re failures before they’d even happened, & it ruined any chance of moving forward, with these useless apologists running the show.

Managed us to league cup glory very soon after our darkest moments. The Skol Cup win is still the most memorable achievement in our recent club history bar of course the holy grail. Say what you like about Alex Miller but he gave some of us one of our greatest memories after many years of drought.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

:flag:

[MWHIBBIES]

Sorry no time for thread in depth, decline of Scotland was roxburgh followed by brown negative disasters exact same as disaster a miller for Hibs. Excuses for coaches with excuses & negativity before balls kicked! Sorry but that was them! Despise what they did to the teams I follow. If you paid attention then you’ll realise this. These jokers tried to excuse they’re failures before they’d even happened, & it ruined any chance of moving forward, with these useless apologists running the show.

Yeah, 20 years of not qualifying is because of a few interviews you disagreed with in the 90s. Little more to it than that.

[Ozyhibby]

Do you think that the stuff he has done is unique to him, or is it stuff you can pick up and take forward?

Rather than getting in better coaches, could we not just keep on developing the likes of yourself to add to what you already have?

Do the players respond a bit better to being coached by a glamorous ex-pro rather than Boab's Dad?

I maintain that what we lack most are people like yourself - volunteers who facilitate the playing of football, whether it is a Dad being prepared to kick a ball with his kid in the park/ garden or helping out at something more organised. We need to get as many people as possible playing the game and loving the game and I don't think we do it enough. The fancier coaching exists and is in place for those lucky/ good enough to make the grade.

We need both. We need and always will need the parent volunteers. They are crucial and are needed at every club at every level and I agree there is not enough as most clubs in Edinburgh are regularly turning kids away as there are no spots left. But we also need people who have had the experience and education to coach these kids to a higher standard.
The next stage for me if I was to carry on would be a 5 day course which means time off work and it costs about £300 and odd pound. That is still not the level that other Euro nations are insisting every team has. There is a massive level of technical knowledge that I just don’t have and don’t have the time to get.
There are lots of young coaches out there but these coaching courses are expensive and there is no money to be made as a reward for a young guy wanting to do it.
The SFA need to look at making it easier for people to get as far as their B license at least but also find a way of funding them to go work at grassroots clubs. That is the hardest part obviously but other countries are managing to do it. Even if they only done it for the teams in the top division in each region it could make a massive difference.


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[Haymaker]

Football starts at home. Parents need to engage their kids with a ball as early as possible - not just kicking it but using both feet, all the surfaces, stop and change direction etc.

It makes a massive difference if a kid has the basic skills when they appear at organised football.

[hibsbollah]

We need both. We need and always will need the parent volunteers. They are crucial and are needed at every club at every level and I agree there is not enough as most clubs in Edinburgh are regularly turning kids away as there are no spots left. But we also need people who have had the experience and education to coach these kids to a higher standard.
The next stage for me if I was to carry on would be a 5 day course which means time off work and it costs about £300 and odd pound. That is still not the level that other Euro nations are insisting every team has. There is a massive level of technical knowledge that I just don’t have and don’t have the time to get.
There are lots of young coaches out there but these coaching courses are expensive and there is no money to be made as a reward for a young guy wanting to do it.
The SFA need to look at making it easier for people to get as far as their B license at least but also find a way of funding them to go work at grassroots clubs. That is the hardest part obviously but other countries are managing to do it. Even if they only done it for the teams in the top division in each region it could make a massive difference.


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Agree with every word of that.

[mjhibby]

Those are ‘Dads’ courses though. They are very basic. The standard that other countries are educating their coaches to are much higher.
I was head coach of my sons team until about 2 months ago. We were struggling badly even though I felt we had a lot of decent wee players.
Every week I would try and work out where we are going wrong, moving kids around, changing formation etc. Nothing was working and I was beginning to think maybe some of the kids should be in a lower team.
We got very lucky when a new kid pitched up who’s dad was an ex pro and had his UEFA A license. We immediately started to ask if he could help out and eventually persuaded him to become head coach.
The difference he has made in two short months is massive. All the kids are playing with confidence again and results have followed. None of them now look out of place in that team and their improvement is massive, including my own lad.
That’s just one team though and it was just dumb luck that he chose our team for his kid but if we could do that with every kids team in the country I guarantee that the quality of player we produce would massively improve.


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I think it a bit off calling them dad's courses especially the 1.3. I suspect your guys improved hearing a different voice and different methods. Plus winning of course helps confidence and guys then listen more. Get the spine of the team right and the rest follows. The cost of courses after 1.3 are ridiculous plus mean taking up half your hols at work. The issue is some poor coaches but this is coaches who are interested in winning. We've had it this season when teams at kids level are time wasting with twenty mins to go. My biggest hunch is too many kids think they are Messi and don't want to learn, simple as that. I see my lads basketball team and boy do they train at the max and put a huge effort in every game. Their coach is laid back, praises only when plans are fully completed and coaches when it's not done. They have improved exactly the as you've said but it's come from the kids willingness to listen and learn. It still comes down as far as I'm concerned to ball control. Get that right and the rest will follow.

[JimBHibees]

Berti got found out after the team he inherited from Beckenbauer past it's sell by date. The same can now be seen with Jogi Löwe, he inherited his world cup winning side from Klinsmann but it's falling apart because he just doesn't have the know how to replace his ageing team.

Bertie won Euro 96 as a coach did he not.

[JimBHibees]

Thats only giving you the absolute basics. And for a decent sized boys club you're going to have multiple coaches for multiple age groups and abilities. So a thousand pounds for six coaches to get to level two. That's a lot when you have a lot of other financial demands. The SFA are absolutely raking it in from the boys clubs whilst providing duplicate, competent but essentially repetitive 'how to' coaching they call The Pathway that in most cases you can get as good off you tube.

You also need to renew every 4 years I think to maintain your certificates.

[mjhibby]

I'd like to take all the badges but I doubt I'd get a chance as an over 50 with no connection to a club. The Largs influence is still prevelant I'm afraid.

[Smartie]

I'd like to take all the badges but I doubt I'd get a chance as an over 50 with no connection to a club. The Largs influence is still prevelant I'm afraid.

Is it not just a simple case of stumping up and going along?

Obviously you'd need to have somewhere sorted to use your qualifications afterwards but clubs are often crying out for qualified people to help, especially at lower age levels?

[Ozyhibby]

Is it not just a simple case of stumping up and going along?

Obviously you'd need to have somewhere sorted to use your qualifications afterwards but clubs are often crying out for qualified people to help, especially at lower age levels?

100% correct


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[Onceinawhile]

Those are ‘Dads’ courses though. They are very basic. The standard that other countries are educating their coaches to are much higher.
I was head coach of my sons team until about 2 months ago. We were struggling badly even though I felt we had a lot of decent wee players.
Every week I would try and work out where we are going wrong, moving kids around, changing formation etc. Nothing was working and I was beginning to think maybe some of the kids should be in a lower team.
We got very lucky when a new kid pitched up who’s dad was an ex pro and had his UEFA A license. We immediately started to ask if he could help out and eventually persuaded him to become head coach.
The difference he has made in two short months is massive. All the kids are playing with confidence again and results have followed. None of them now look out of place in that team and their improvement is massive, including my own lad.
That’s just one team though and it was just dumb luck that he chose our team for his kid but if we could do that with every kids team in the country I guarantee that the quality of player we produce would massively improve.


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That's an interesting post.

I'm just starting to help out my boy's team after they asked for extra coaches. All the current coaches are 1.2 and one is 1.3 and the difference in training since the boy with 1.3 came on board has been pretty obvious as well. A lot of it though is just natural development and them starting to understand the game though Imo.

I'm not sure someone else with much more experience / badges would be able to improve them further.

[Ozyhibby]

That's an interesting post.

I'm just starting to help out my boy's team after they asked for extra coaches. All the current coaches are 1.2 and one is 1.3 and the difference in training since the boy with 1.3 came on board has been pretty obvious as well. A lot of it though is just natural development and them starting to understand the game though Imo.

I'm not sure someone else with much more experience / badges would be able to improve them further.

You say yourself that a 1.3 level coach made improvements on what the 1.2 guys were doing. Who knows how much they could improve with someone else even more qualified? Maybe not at all, as it could be that your 1.3 coach is excellent.
I suppose it’s a case of ‘you don’t know what you don’t know’. If your club is able to raise funds, then why not try bringing in a more qualified coach for a session a week. They usually charge about £30 a session (finding the right guy is the hard part but they are out there). Even if it doesn’t work out, it can good for the boys to hear a different voice for a few weeks.


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[Smartie]

I must admit I've always fancied getting involved in coaching but never really got round to it. I've had a lot of at work for the past few years, and always thought that a single male with no kids wanting to coach kids football would seem a bit weird.

I have a wee girl now though, and my mate coaches girls "soccer" in the USA for a living and absolutely loves it. It's something that I might look seriously into over the next few years.

I've really enjoyed these threads about grassroots coaching and the specifics of it. It seems a world away from former Old Firm players sitting on panel shows bickering about how many teams we should have in our top league.

The fact that such discussions are happening somewhere strangely gives me a bit of hope that things might improve in future.

[JimBHibees]

We need both. We need and always will need the parent volunteers. They are crucial and are needed at every club at every level and I agree there is not enough as most clubs in Edinburgh are regularly turning kids away as there are no spots left. But we also need people who have had the experience and education to coach these kids to a higher standard.
The next stage for me if I was to carry on would be a 5 day course which means time off work and it costs about £300 and odd pound. That is still not the level that other Euro nations are insisting every team has. There is a massive level of technical knowledge that I just don’t have and don’t have the time to get.
There are lots of young coaches out there but these coaching courses are expensive and there is no money to be made as a reward for a young guy wanting to do it.
The SFA need to look at making it easier for people to get as far as their B license at least but also find a way of funding them to go work at grassroots clubs. That is the hardest part obviously but other countries are managing to do it. Even if they only done it for the teams in the top division in each region it could make a massive difference.


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Did the C licence course recently at Oriam and thought it was good. First day was a Saturday and then a Thursday and Friday practice day and then Thursday and Friday assessment both 2 weeks apart. The main difference was team shaping exercises which were interesting and challenging. Was enjoyable. If you are linked with a community rated club you get a 50 per cent discount so cost is about 150 or so.

[A Hi-Bee]

You say yourself that a 1.3 level coach made improvements on what the 1.2 guys were doing. Who knows how much they could improve with someone else even more qualified? Maybe not at all, as it could be that your 1.3 coach is excellent.
I suppose it’s a case of ‘you don’t know what you don’t know’. If your club is able to raise funds, then why not try bringing in a more qualified coach for a session a week. They usually charge about £30 a session (finding the right guy is the hard part but they are out there). Even if it doesn’t work out, it can good for the boys to hear a different voice for a few weeks.


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Don’t think there was many coaches around in the days when we could at least compete with the best, perhaps to much couching from the wrong coaches these days, and we could do with so many more continental type facilities. Every town in Germany has at least one swimming pool along with loads of full size football pitches and non of them vandalised either. At least not when I was running around there.

[Ozyhibby]

Did the C licence course recently at Oriam and thought it was good. First day was a Saturday and then a Thursday and Friday practice day and then Thursday and Friday assessment both 2 weeks apart. The main difference was team shaping exercises which were interesting and challenging. Was enjoyable. If you are linked with a community rated club you get a 50 per cent discount so cost is about 150 or so.

I do fancy that course if I can make time for it. Team shaping was one of the areas that our new coach has improved massively. Football isn’t just naming a team and telling them the formation. [emoji23]


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[Onceinawhile]

You say yourself that a 1.3 level coach made improvements on what the 1.2 guys were doing. Who knows how much they could improve with someone else even more qualified? Maybe not at all, as it could be that your 1.3 coach is excellent.
I suppose it’s a case of ‘you don’t know what you don’t know’. If your club is able to raise funds, then why not try bringing in a more qualified coach for a session a week. They usually charge about £30 a session (finding the right guy is the hard part but they are out there). Even if it doesn’t work out, it can good for the boys to hear a different voice for a few weeks.


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We're looking in to doing that already, but haven't been able to find the right time for it yet. :aok:

[Unseen work]

Also, we do have players that are physically impressive

Tierney
Oli Burke
John McGinn
Callum Paterson
Jack Hendry - once he bulks up a bit more
Porteous
Ryan Fraser
Scott McKenna
James Forrest

Are all absolute units.

[jacomo]

Regarding the success GB has had with cycling, that's exactly the model Scottish Football needs to follow. They ripped apart the whole UK cycling model and started again.

Created an academy to make sure they could work with and monitor the best young cyclists, employ world class coaches to make sure they nurtured their potential, gave them top class facilities to train and learn, looked at other sports and industries to see what technology they could use that others were not to give them the upper hand. It was based on the moneyball approach, great book and film by the way, where you looked for marginal gains instead of immediate success.

The national coach get very little time with players so there no point getting in some e who's brilliant on the training ground or excellent at maintaining fitness within the group over season. You need someone who understands tactics and can motivate players. Look at the opposition and find their weaknesses, find a formation to take advantage of those and counteract their strengths and pick the layers who fit that position best. If that means you leave out a "better" player for someone who is more industrious and would fit the role better so be it. England failed over the last few decades because they kept trying to squeeze their big names in to one starting 11, even though it appeared they could perform as a unit.


And drugs. Don’t forget the drugs.

[Ozyhibby]

https://athleticevolution.co.uk/2018/10/18/growth-and-maturation-in-youth-footballers-guest-blog-steve-curnyn-hibernian-fc-academy/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Article showing the work being done by Hibs on strength and conditioning. I know we are taking it far more seriously than most clubs in Scotland. All this never happened pre the arrival of Leeann and George Craig.


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[theonlywayisup]

Thought I would resurrect this thread. When are our footballing leaders going to sort out the fundamental problems that we've got in Scotland.

[Biggie]

Thought I would resurrect this thread. When are our footballing leaders going to sort out the fundamental problems that we've got in Scotland.

They are incapable of doing so....the higher eschilons of Scottish football appear to be corrupt to the core.
Let's face it, they seem to answer to no-one.
Possibly need UEFA to step in ?!

We need massive change across Scottish football. Our game and standard is as low as I can remember....all under their watch

[Hibby Bairn]

Maybe it’s now built into the Scottish psyche. Maybe we’re just a bunch of losers. Lacking grit, winning mentality and determination.

I genuinely don’t see us doing much different to other countries at grassroots level. Football 4s, 5s, 7s, 11s. Pathway etc.

[Brightside]

Those are ‘Dads’ courses though. They are very basic. The standard that other countries are educating their coaches to are much higher.
I was head coach of my sons team until about 2 months ago. We were struggling badly even though I felt we had a lot of decent wee players.
Every week I would try and work out where we are going wrong, moving kids around, changing formation etc. Nothing was working and I was beginning to think maybe some of the kids should be in a lower team.
We got very lucky when a new kid pitched up who’s dad was an ex pro and had his UEFA A license. We immediately started to ask if he could help out and eventually persuaded him to become head coach.
The difference he has made in two short months is massive. All the kids are playing with confidence again and results have followed. None of them now look out of place in that team and their improvement is massive, including my own lad.
That’s just one team though and it was just dumb luck that he chose our team for his kid but if we could do that with every kids team in the country I guarantee that the quality of player we produce would massively improve.


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Badges don’t make coaches. I’ve seen some awful B license coaches in youth football.

[GreenOnions]

My view on this runs contrary to what appears to be the majority view here. I honestly think it's ridiculous blaming "the blazers", the coaches, the politicians etc.

We are a small country with a small pool of people to choose from for elite sport. Other small countries do better than us and that is where there is understandable cause for concern.

It's far too easy and also plain wrong IMHO to blame the usual suspects mentioned above.

Surely someone on this forum has actually had kids playing for teams during their teenage years and observed what happens to the vast majority?

Far too many in this country do not want to commit to the sort of personal and physical discipline that is required nowadays to succeed at the top level in sport.

If you listen to current elite sportspeople (Andy Murray for example) you start to understand the extent of the sacrifices they make.

Does anyone have the balls to openly address the issue of to what extent our problems are caused by the fact that those sacrifices are being made by competitor nations but not by us?

Blaming the SFA etc is failing to take responsibility IMO.

We should take a look at ourselves and our culture before we start blaming those who have to organise and coach the small number of those remaining who have been prepared to make the necessary commitment.

[The Modfather]

Badges don’t make coaches. I’ve seen some awful B license coaches in youth football.

That was a point John Collins made at the Henry Mcleish talk at last years book festival. He said coaches should be reviewed every 6 months/12 months to make sure they are still coaching the correct things and in the correct way. At the moment it seems like once you’ve got your badges you’ve “made it” and will probably get a job through who you know as much as how good a coach you are.

[brianmc]

My view on this runs contrary to what appears to be the majority view here. I honestly think it's ridiculous blaming "the blazers", the coaches, the politicians etc.

We are a small country with a small pool of people to choose from for elite sport. Other small countries do better than us and that is where there is understandable cause for concern.

It's far too easy and also plain wrong IMHO to blame the usual suspects mentioned above.

Surely someone on this forum has actually had kids playing for teams during their teenage years and observed what happens to the vast majority?

Far too many in this country do not want to commit to the sort of personal and physical discipline that is required nowadays to succeed at the top level in sport.

If you listen to current elite sportspeople (Andy Murray for example) you start to understand the extent of the sacrifices they make.

Does anyone have the balls to openly address the issue of to what extent our problems are caused by the fact that those sacrifices are being made by competitor nations but not by us?

Blaming the SFA etc is failing to take responsibility IMO.

We should take a look at ourselves and our culture before we start blaming those who have to organise and coach the small number of those remaining who have been prepared to make the necessary commitment.

I agree with your take on things.

Too many people far too willing to blame anything and everything on everyone else except the obvious failings of individuals.

(To generalise)
We are a nation of idle, druggy, drunken negative thinkers who absolutely revel in pointing out the shortcomings or failings of anyone and everyone else - then demand the same people fix all those ills for us.

We've better facilities now than ever.
We've more Coaches, Academies etc etc etc
Great small sided kids teams.

But if boys get to 15 or 16 and either think they've already made it OR start chasing after girls and booze then I'm ****ed if I know why we blame that on the "Blazers"??

Don't these kids have family to point them in the right direction - it can't be all Ernie Walker,Jim Farry, Roger Mitchell, Rod Petrie's fault (delete as appropriate) FFS.

[Haymaker]

That was a point John Collins made at the Henry Mcleish talk at last years book festival. He said coaches should be reviewed every 6 months/12 months to make sure they are still coaching the correct things and in the correct way. At the moment it seems like once you’ve got your badges you’ve “made it” and will probably get a job through who you know as much as how good a coach you are.

Problem is once you've done your badges you can do whatever the **** you want at grass roots level. All the learning goes out the window and it's all about winning for a lot of "coaches".

[The Modfather]

I agree with your take on things.

Too many people far too willing to blame anything and everything on everyone else except the obvious failings of individuals.

(To generalise)
We are a nation of idle, druggy, drunken negative thinkers who absolutely revel in pointing out the shortcomings or failings of anyone and everyone else - then demand the same people fix all those ills for us.

We've better facilities now than ever.
We've more Coaches, Academies etc etc etc
Great small sided kids teams.

But if boys get to 15 or 16 and either think they've already made it OR start chasing after girls and booze then I'm ****ed if I know why we blame that on the "Blazers"??

Don't these kids have family to point them in the right direction - it can't be all Ernie Walker,Jim Farry, Roger Mitchell, Rod Petrie's fault (delete as appropriate) FFS.

I’m not so sure I agree with the bits in bold, they’re also not unique to Scotland. A count of the current squad and we have 10 players from the premiership, with 6 playing regularly. With another 5 who have played large spells in their careers there. The premiership might not be as good quality wise as it is marketed, outside the top 6 anyway. However I always remember Clarke Carlisle talking at the book festival years ago. He made the point that he considered himself fit and looked after himself, but when he got promoted he realised just how fit you have to be just to survive in that league. He used Nicky Butt as the example of the common perception that once he left Man U he was finished, but what people didn’t see was the commitment and dedication needed simply to remain playing in that league.

[we are hibs]

Thought I would resurrect this thread. When are our footballing leaders going to sort out the fundamental problems that we've got in Scotland.

Theyll do nothing until people starve them of money. Stop going to hampden. Stop giving these charlatans money until they get off their ***** and do something. Theyre quite happy to sit back and let this continious ****show continue as long as people keep buying tickets and people keep giving them money. Thats all they care about

[theonlywayisup]

Another embarrassing result tonight.

Until Friday, Scotland had only lost three competitive matches at Hampden in the previous 25 matches, all three against teams that were World Champions at the time. Now add another two defeats to that list.

Things are getting progressively worse with no sign of things getting better.

[theonlywayisup]

Well said Kris Boyd.

The template is not working.
Football has now a middle class sport.
Our football is so passive.
All our players are just robots.
No-one wants to defend now.

[hibbydog]

Well said Kris Boyd.

The template is not working.
Football has now a middle class sport.
Our football is so passive.

Coming from a fat hun who couldn’t even be bothered to play for his country ? Forgive me if I’m not hanging on his every word.

[theonlywayisup]

Coming from a fat hun who couldn’t even be bothered to play for his country ? Forgive me if I’m not hanging on his every word.

Each to their own, but he's talking a lot of sense.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Coming from a fat hun who couldn’t even be bothered to play for his country ? Forgive me if I’m not hanging on his every word.


we should maybe listen then

[GreenCastle]

Well said Kris Boyd.

The template is not working.
Football has now a middle class sport.
Our football is so passive.
All our players are just robots.
No-one wants to defend now.

Middle class sport ?

What does he mean by that?

I find it hilarious folk are surprised about what’s happening.

Scotland have been in decline for years and the SFA and how the game is run up here to suit the Old Firm is a major problem.

Add in useless coaches and the CULTURE we have and oh get constant failure.

It will continue to get worse - even if Scotland qualify through the playoffs they will get embarrassed at the Euros.

[green day]

What does he mean by "a middle class sport"?

Does he mean everyone in schemes is just sitting on their fat ***** and eating Dominoes pizzas?

[we are hibs]

Tbf i dont like the fat turd but he made a good point about players being robots. Too many mctominays playing square passes. Zero individuality about them. No moment of magic. Just another jersey being filled

[ancient hibee]

What does he mean by "a middle class sport"?

Does he mean everyone in schemes is just sitting on their fat ***** and eating Dominoes pizzas?

He means they don’t have the money to support their kids in sport.

[bingo70]

What does he mean by "a middle class sport"?

Does he mean everyone in schemes is just sitting on their fat ***** and eating Dominoes pizzas?

Football in this country is becoming unaffordable for many kids and it’s not right.

My boys football is £25 a month, kit cost about £50 and then there’s the cost of the boots, match plays, summer camps etc.

I’m lucky enough that I can afford it but there’s plenty that can’t spare that amount, especially if people have a couple of kids. The fact the facilities are better now means nothing to the parents that can’t afford to send their kids to these clubs.

I don’t think many primary schools have a team now either as it’s been replaced by these academies.

By comparison for a kid to join my local tennis club it costs £60 for the year and you get free coaching every Saturday morning.

Historically though tennis is the middle class game, it’s changed.

[green day]

He means they don’t have the money to support their kids in sport.

Ah, cool. He's probably right. It was something that Brad Welsh tried to champion, but is deffo something the SFA should be doing.

[green day]

Football in this country is becoming unaffordable for many kids and it’s not right.

My boys football is £25 a month, kit cost about £50 and then there’s the cost of the boots, match plays, summer camps etc.

I’m lucky enough that I can afford it but there’s plenty that can’t spare that amount, especially if people have a couple of kids. The fact the facilities are better now means nothing to the parents that can’t afford to send their kids to these clubs.

I don’t think many primary schools have a team now either as it’s been replaced by these academies.

By comparison for a kid to join my local tennis club it costs £60 for the year and you get free coaching every Saturday morning.

Historically though tennis is the middle class game, it’s changed.

N.b. which tennis club? My son plays at Meadows and it's about £20 a month for Saturday coaching.

[bingo70]

N.b. which tennis club? My son plays at Meadows and it's about £20 a month for Saturday coaching.

Abercorn tennis club just off Willowbrae road.

https://clubspark.lta.org.uk/AbercornSportsClub/Membership/Join

(£69 it is but good discount if you have a brother or sister already a member, the free lesson is what I’ve been told, probably can’t give you a link for that, I assume it is reliant on a volunteer)

[cabbageandribs1875]

They are incapable of doing so....the higher eschilons of Scottish football appear to be corrupt to the core.
Let's face it, they seem to answer to no-one.
Possibly need UEFA to step in ?!

We need massive change across Scottish football. Our game and standard is as low as I can remember....all under their watch


UEFA have a big enough job sorting out our countries sectarian bigots on behalf of our spineless SFA at the moment tbf

[HibeeBigFly]

I think Clarke’s team selection has been awful. I have no idea why we persist on picking players who are not even kicking a ball at club level (Armstrong/Snodgrass). Ultimately I blame the old firm for our decline. Rangers started from the bottom and managed to not bring a single youth player through the ranks in that time. Preferring over the hill journeyman (Daly) to negotiate the seaside leagues. Far too many promising young players bought with the intention of sitting on the bench. This phenomenon has been rife lately with average EPL sides and championship teams doing exactly the same thing.

[ancient hibee]

UEFA have a big enough job sorting out our countries sectarian bigots on behalf of our spineless SFA at the moment tbf

When you talk about the SFA you really mean the clubs.They are really the root cause of the current situation.If they wanted to change it they could easily.All it takes is a majority vote.

[bigwheel]

Horrible results..but I think Michael ONeill at NI didn’t win for his first 18 or so games...Clarke should be given time and support to rebuild the side .....

The SFA have failed to rebuild football dev...a clear out there -andnew capabilities would be a worthy move

[cabbageandribs1875]

When you talk about the SFA you really mean the clubs.They are really the root cause of the current situation.If they wanted to change it they could easily.All it takes is a majority vote.



so therefore it's never going to change, it hurts not having a national team to be proud of

[ancient hibee]

T
so therefore it's never going to change, it hurts not having a national team to be proud of

Afraid you’re spot on.

[The dalmeny]

Football in this country is becoming unaffordable for many kids and it’s not right.

My boys football is £25 a month, kit cost about £50 and then there’s the cost of the boots, match plays, summer camps etc.

I’m lucky enough that I can afford it but there’s plenty that can’t spare that amount, especially if people have a couple of kids. The fact the facilities are better now means nothing to the parents that can’t afford to send their kids to these clubs.

I don’t think many primary schools have a team now either as it’s been replaced by these academies.

By comparison for a kid to join my local tennis club it costs £60 for the year and you get free coaching every Saturday morning.

Historically though tennis is the middle class game, it’s changed.

I pay more than 25 a month for my lads football but, including matches, works out at about £1.50 an hour which I feel is pretty good on the basis he’s getting coached in the non match time. However the bottom line is if you can’t afford it you can afford it wether of not it’s a tenner or 50.

it would be nice if we were in a position to give a grant to teams to allow them minimise subs and get more kids playing.


The only other problem would then be where to find the extra pitches and refs you’d need

[bingo70]

I pay more than 25 a month for my lads football but, including matches, works out at about £1.50 an hour which I feel is pretty good on the basis he’s getting coached in the non match time. However the bottom line is if you can’t afford it you can afford it wether of not it’s a tenner or 50.

it would be nice if we were in a position to give a grant to teams to allow them minimise subs and get more kids playing.


The only other problem would then be where to find the extra pitches and refs you’d need

Exactly, the coaching and facilities are much better now than they used to be and that’s all great, if you can afford it.

I totally get that in the greater scheme of things to lost people £25 a month isn’t a huge amount of money, if you have two or three kids it is though and in a time where more and more families are using food banks surely the authorities have to recognise that sport, not just football should be accessible to all, one way or another.

[The Modfather]

We’re 3 months into a new presidency in the SFA, have we heard anything about what’s going to be different under this regime or what the plan is to turn round the national teams fortunes?

The SFA parallels Westminster IMO, self serving officials more interested in personal gains and their own egos. It’s all the same gravy train they’re on!

[Swedish hibee]

Don't the kids in Scotland get football at school? After school teams?

[The dalmeny]

Don't the kids in Scotland get football at school? After school teams?

My boy’s playing matches only, all the boys in his team play boys club football. But there no training(to be honest he has no time for it)

[hibbydog]

Each to their own, but he's talking a lot of sense.

He is. My point is that his opinion has no credibility given that he’s abandoned the national team himself.

[theonlywayisup]

I pay more than 25 a month for my lads football but, including matches, works out at about £1.50 an hour which I feel is pretty good on the basis he’s getting coached in the non match time. However the bottom line is if you can’t afford it you can afford it wether of not it’s a tenner or 50.

it would be nice if we were in a position to give a grant to teams to allow them minimise subs and get more kids playing.


The only other problem would then be where to find the extra pitches and refs you’d need

I think when Boyd was talking about the "middle class" sport, he wasn't just talking about the money.

I think he mentioned about kids being driven to football matches by their dads, who had to have the time and dedication to take their kids to training and matches. The dads then being their sons biggest critic/supporter, which ever way you want to describe them. He was pointing out that probably half the boys don't really want to play football any way, or at least put in the dedication that you need to be a good footballer.

Whereas the kids Boyd thinks we should be targeting are the kids from the housing schemes, most probably the kids that their fathers don't know / don't care what they get up to during the day. The "rough as ****" kids who would have a certain level of aggression that other kids wouldn't mess with. Now it's all to nice, all to passive - anyone with any aggression would probably be chucked out of the boys club. We've got 4G pitches that no-one can afford to play. We've got "no ball game" signs up preventing boys from playing football.

In my day, there was no organised boys clubs. The only organised football was via the school. We used to have 30 a side games at breaks that then continued after school. In my school team, we had a Scotland internationalist and around 3 or 4 kids who played Highland League to varying standards. I honestly don't recall one game that any dad would come and watch. Not once did I ever get a lift to a match or to football training.

I don't think Boyd is suggesting going back to those days, but the words he said was "the template isn't working guys". I think he's suggesting that we need to get the kids back out playing football with their mates everywhere and anywhere that they can. With the set up we've got now, everything is becoming a barrier to kids developing their raw skills. Kids should be playing with their pals down the street, not being driven miles to attend a boys club 20 miles away in the hope that they get noticed.

Well done Boyd for his rant. It's much needed and about time someone said it.

His ominous summation was that we've not bottomed out yet. I think he's correct.

[theonlywayisup]

Report of Boyd's rant from the Record, copied below:

Former Scotland and Rangers striker Kris Boyd has warned we have still to hit rock bottom.


The legendary goalscorer watched Steve Clarke's side suffer another hammering, this time to Belgium in the 4-0 Euro 2020 qualifying defeat.


But Boyd fears worse could yet come as he surveyed the wreckage of another Hampden loss.


He is worried there are still not enough players coming through and in a no-hold barred verdict the 36-year-old let rip on Sky Sports.

Boyd lashed out at how football has become a middle-class sport as he raged: "Yes we've got Billy Gilmour coming through but there is the same players making mistakes after mistakes.


"We've not hit rock bottom.

"But we're well out of it. The price of football boots, to attend camps - it's a middle class sport. It's worrying how much it costs to play football. Everywhere you see it's no ball game signs. Why? It costs an absolute fortune to play football.


"We're hurting our kids.


"Belgium had a plan. They came over when I did my pro licence. They evolved and got everyone buying into it what they were trying to do.

"Here we have everyone trying to get a bit of it. There are too many organisations. If we don't have everyone buying into it then it could get worse. We've not hit rock bottom."


Boyd blasted the robots coming though the Scottish system and added: "I keep hearing week on week we've got great players but the rest of the world think they're bang average.


"Dries Mertens was too small a guy and could have given up.

"Now he's starring in Serie A. They have fantastic players.


"They're all robots now. Nobody's learning the game now. We don't have any defenders or strikers. Would James McFadden achieve it now?


"I keep saying it but we've still to hit rock bottom."

[hibbydog]

Report of Boyd's rant from the Record, copied below:

Former Scotland and Rangers striker Kris Boyd has warned we have still to hit rock bottom.


The legendary goalscorer watched Steve Clarke's side suffer another hammering, this time to Belgium in the 4-0 Euro 2020 qualifying defeat.


But Boyd fears worse could yet come as he surveyed the wreckage of another Hampden loss.


He is worried there are still not enough players coming through and in a no-hold barred verdict the 36-year-old let rip on Sky Sports.

Boyd lashed out at how football has become a middle-class sport as he raged: "Yes we've got Billy Gilmour coming through but there is the same players making mistakes after mistakes.


"We've not hit rock bottom.

"But we're well out of it. The price of football boots, to attend camps - it's a middle class sport. It's worrying how much it costs to play football. Everywhere you see it's no ball game signs. Why? It costs an absolute fortune to play football.


"We're hurting our kids.


"Belgium had a plan. They came over when I did my pro licence. They evolved and got everyone buying into it what they were trying to do.

"Here we have everyone trying to get a bit of it. There are too many organisations. If we don't have everyone buying into it then it could get worse. We've not hit rock bottom."


Boyd blasted the robots coming though the Scottish system and added: "I keep hearing week on week we've got great players but the rest of the world think they're bang average.


"Dries Mertens was too small a guy and could have given up.

"Now he's starring in Serie A. They have fantastic players.


"They're all robots now. Nobody's learning the game now. We don't have any defenders or strikers. Would James McFadden achieve it now?


"I keep saying it but we've still to hit rock bottom."

Legendary goal scorer who turned his back on the national team then goes on telly bemoaning the state of our game?

Pass the sick bag

[The dalmeny]

I think when Boyd was talking about the "middle class" sport, he wasn't just talking about the money. I think he mentioned about kids being driven to football matches by their dads, who had to have the time and dedication to take their kids to training and matches. The dads then being their sons biggest critic/supporter, which ever way you want to describe them. He was pointing out that probably half the boys don't really want to play football any way, or at least put in the dedication that you need to be a good footballer. Whereas the kids Boyd thinks we should be targeting are the kids from the housing schemes, most probably the kids that their fathers don't know / don't care what they get up to during the day. The "rough as ****" kids who would have a certain level of aggression that other kids wouldn't mess with. Now it's all to nice, all to passive - anyone with any aggression would probably be chucked out of the boys club. We've got 4G pitches that no-one can afford to play. We've got "no ball game" signs up preventing boys from playing football. In my day, there was no organised boys clubs. The only organised football was via the school. We used to have 30 a side games at breaks that then continued after school. In my school team, we had a Scotland internationalist and around 3 or 4 kids who played Highland League to varying standards. I honestly don't recall one game that any dad would come and watch. Not once did I ever get a lift to a match or to football training. I don't think Boyd is suggesting going back to those days, but the words he said was "the template isn't working guys". I think he's suggesting that we need to get the kids back out playing football with their mates everywhere and anywhere that they can. With the set up we've got now, everything is becoming a barrier to kids developing their raw skills. Kids should be playing with their pals down the street, not being driven miles to attend a boys club 20 miles away in the hope that they get noticed. Well done Boyd for his rant. It's much needed and about time someone said it. His ominous summation was that we've not bottomed out yet. I think he's correct. I think that s fair point too though the extract record does give the feeling hes talking about financial rather the social one. d I'm fed up with games against 'rough as **** kids' who do nothing but hoof the ball up the pitch or as their parent sometimes encourage them to 'leave the foot in' It's about getting a happy medium you want an edge but not at the sake of decent football.

[bingo70]

Legendary goal scorer who turned his back on the national team then goes on telly bemoaning the state of our game?

Pass the sick bag

Doesn’t mean he’s wrong.

Just means he was an arse a few years ago, even then I don’t know the full story as to why he pulled out the Scotland squad, three sides to every story and all that.

[GreenCastle]

I think when Boyd was talking about the "middle class" sport, he wasn't just talking about the money.

I think he mentioned about kids being driven to football matches by their dads, who had to have the time and dedication to take their kids to training and matches. The dads then being their sons biggest critic/supporter, which ever way you want to describe them. He was pointing out that probably half the boys don't really want to play football any way, or at least put in the dedication that you need to be a good footballer.

Whereas the kids Boyd thinks we should be targeting are the kids from the housing schemes, most probably the kids that their fathers don't know / don't care what they get up to during the day. The "rough as ****" kids who would have a certain level of aggression that other kids wouldn't mess with. Now it's all to nice, all to passive - anyone with any aggression would probably be chucked out of the boys club. We've got 4G pitches that no-one can afford to play. We've got "no ball game" signs up preventing boys from playing football.

In my day, there was no organised boys clubs. The only organised football was via the school. We used to have 30 a side games at breaks that then continued after school. In my school team, we had a Scotland internationalist and around 3 or 4 kids who played Highland League to varying standards. I honestly don't recall one game that any dad would come and watch. Not once did I ever get a lift to a match or to football training.

I don't think Boyd is suggesting going back to those days, but the words he said was "the template isn't working guys". I think he's suggesting that we need to get the kids back out playing football with their mates everywhere and anywhere that they can. With the set up we've got now, everything is becoming a barrier to kids developing their raw skills. Kids should be playing with their pals down the street, not being driven miles to attend a boys club 20 miles away in the hope that they get noticed.

Well done Boyd for his rant. It's much needed and about time someone said it.

His ominous summation was that we've not bottomed out yet. I think he's correct.

Scotland would get more success if they went into the private schools and worked with kids from that set up.

The problem is who would coach them as many coaches in Scotland club and national set up are useless - basically jobs for the boys.

I wonder what rock bottom will be ? When Scotland don’t qualify in the playoffs ?

There is so much wrong with the game in Scotland - getting rid of staff who are employed in the mens game who are useless at their job isn’t one of the biggest challenges.

Also don’t forget Kris Boyd has his own coaching Academy and charges kids to play.

The pay to play model is used in America - seems to have worked well for the US women’s team with them all coming through college. Not saying it’s right but majority of rugby players come from private school backgrounds and they seem to do ok.

[neil7908]

Legendary goal scorer who turned his back on the national team then goes on telly bemoaning the state of our game?

Pass the sick bag

This. He's just as self serving as the SFA. Not interested in anything he has to say.

It's just like his new found anger at sectarianism - wonder where that was when he was hearing 50k Rangers fans sing their lovely songs when he played for them.

[neil7908]

Scotland would get more success if they went into the private schools and worked with kids from that set up.

The problem is who would coach them as many coaches in Scotland club and national set up are useless - basically jobs for the boys.

I wonder what rock bottom will be ? When Scotland don’t qualify in the playoffs ?

There is so much wrong with the game in Scotland - getting rid of staff who are employed in the mens game who are useless at their job isn’t one of the biggest challenges.

Also don’t forget Kris Boyd has his own coaching Academy and charges kids to play.

The pay to play model is used in America - seems to have worked well for the US women’s team with them all coming through college. Not saying it’s right but majority of rugby players come from private school backgrounds and they seem to do ok.

Rugby is no comparison to football on the international stage. It's played seriously by about 10 countries and unless your built like a tank you can forget it.

I'd be abandoning the national team entirely if it was full of Tarquins and Percivals who were only there as their parents had enough money to send them to private school.

[HIBERNIAN-0762]

We’re 3 months into a new presidency in the SFA, have we heard anything about what’s going to be different under this regime or what the plan is to turn round the national teams fortunes?

The SFA parallels Westminster IMO, self serving officials more interested in personal gains and their own egos. It’s all the same gravy train they’re on!

Spot on. The parallels are obvious.

[Since452]

Looking at that squad the lack of quality is frightening. McBurnie, MacGillvary, Phillips, Bates and Cooper? Really?

[Hibby Bairn]

I honestly don't recall one game that any dad would come and watch. Not once did I ever get a lift to a match or to football training.



Ha. So true.

I lived at Silverknowes and played for Hutchison Vale at the end of primary school in 1979 (when juvenile age groups started at age 12) and got the No. 1 bus to and from training and matches.

Imagine that now. Going ALL the way from Silverknowes to Stenhouse on your own in a bus in the dark winter months aged 12. And then walking down that dark and dangerous Fords Road. 😂

[The Spaceman]

We need to give Clarke a lot of time here. He has picked up a total mess and will take a long-term structural change to our system to fix the many, many issues.

[Scorrie]

We need to give Clarke a lot of time here. He has picked up a total mess and will take a long-term structural change to our system to fix the many, many issues.

I agree but he must be given the authority to make changes

[superfurryhibby]

Rugby is no comparison to football on the international stage. It's played seriously by about 10 countries and unless your built like a tank you can forget it.

I'd be abandoning the national team entirely if it was full of Tarquins and Percivals who were only there as their parents had enough money to send them to private school.

I hope you're never near a coaching role with kids with that ridiculous attitude.

Too many morons involved in coaching youth football. Lots of middle class kids have parents who are put off by the sheer stupidity of some of the people involved in the game. My eldest played right through boys club age groups and some of the men involved were a disgrace. My two younger boys have never been encouraged to play competitively, I just wouldn't want them exposed to it.

Just in case you want to call me a snowdrop (a term only used by fuds), I can reassure you of my working class credentials. I played for many years at a very good amateur standard. However, I am appalled at the moronic culture that surrounded football when I was a boy and was still prevalent when my eldest played ( my laddie was very talented, attracted pro interest and continues to play at a very decent level), it was fairly sickening at times. That puts people off the game, Tarquins or otherwise.

[Antifa Hibs]

We're a nation of absolute dinosaurs. Coaches at kids level, parents on the sidelines, fans at professional games, all generally utter ****ing clueless in this country who know nothing about the modern game.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190910/55b21687d87a7573c428e9807939a3cc.jpg
I agree with this. The middle class thing is simplistic nonsense from Boyd.
The SFA have no interest in change which is why Mark Wotte was forced out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Smartie]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190910/55b21687d87a7573c428e9807939a3cc.jpg
I agree with this. The middle class thing is simplistic nonsense from Boyd.
The SFA have no interest in change which is why Mark Wotte was forced out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

One of the biggest problems in Scottish football is that we repeatedly listen to slavering like this from Boyd and think he's right.

[1875-Hibernia]

I have first hand experience of the disasters as a footballing nation we face and while I agree with some of what Boys is saying. I think we hit rock bottom a long time ago.

I’ve watched other coaches screaming at 10 year old boys to punt the ball up the pitch to get rid of it - this was at a 5 a side game on Astro turf. I’ve watched other coaches have training sessions that involved very little football work. I’ve also watched young lads be dropped from what can be considered elite youth teams, because they’re not good enough or can’t afford fees. I’ve coached at a team that charged £30 a month but didn’t have to pay any rental fees. I’ve seen football camps cost up to £1000 pounds for two kids for a 5 week programme- in north Edinburgh.

There’s examples of pro youth teams still charging kids in excess of £35 a month + kit fees. Overall, It’s simply a cost factor with very little experience and football in return.

For me - we need to start again. Coaches need to be paid and given as much experience as they possibly can. Kids need to be given more football time and help with fees. School teams need to become a thing again. Free facilities need to happen now.

What doesn’t help is a local parent coaching without any experience. Also not helped is the amount of ex-pros having football academy’s and charging a fortune. It all needs stripped out and kids need to enjoy playing football again. Pro youth teams need looked at it. We need to stop sending kids down south at such an early age to waste away on a bench or be loaned to some lower league teams. We need to stop pandering to the professional clubs. Not just the Glasgow two but all of them.

I can’t watch Scotland games anymore without laughing through the game at how bad a nation we are.

[theonlywayisup]

For me - we need to start again. Coaches need to be paid and given as much experience as they possibly can. Kids need to be given more football time and help with fees. School teams need to become a thing again. Free facilities need to happen now.



That's been my view for a long time. We need to get boys (and girls) playing with their pals and stop them having to travel 20 miles to join the elite boys team to try and get noticed.

If we need to pay the sports teachers to do it out of normal school hours, then let's do it.

[1875-Hibernia]

That's been my view for a long time. We need to get boys (and girls) playing with their pals and stop them having to travel 20 miles to join the elite boys team to try and get noticed.

If we need to pay the sports teachers to do it out of normal school hours, then let's do it.

Agreed! I don’t think all the blame lies with the boards though. Imo all clubs and especially the government need to be doing more. Instead they will pay these elite youth clubs to go in to schools and do a training sessions. Which leads to cherry picking.

[worcesterhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190910/55b21687d87a7573c428e9807939a3cc.jpg
i agree with this. The middle class thing is simplistic nonsense from boyd.
The sfa have no interest in change which is why mark wotte was forced out.


Sent from my iphone using tapatalk


this !

[Onceinawhile]

Too many morons involved in coaching youth football. Lots of middle class kids have parents who are put off by the sheer stupidity of some of the people involved in the game. My eldest played right through boys club age groups and some of the men involved were a disgrace. My two younger boys have never been encouraged to play competitively, I just wouldn't want them exposed to it.



I have first hand experience of the disasters as a footballing nation we face and while I agree with some of what Boys is saying. I think we hit rock bottom a long time ago.

I’ve watched other coaches screaming at 10 year old boys to punt the ball up the pitch to get rid of it - this was at a 5 a side game on Astro turf. I’ve watched other coaches have training sessions that involved very little football work. I’ve also watched young lads be dropped from what can be considered elite youth teams, because they’re not good enough or can’t afford fees. I’ve coached at a team that charged £30 a month but didn’t have to pay any rental fees. I’ve seen football camps cost up to £1000 pounds for two kids for a 5 week programme- in north Edinburgh.


I'm not long into coaching at the moment, but our 7 a side team have come up against teams like this. We do our best to try and keep the ball (though sometimes you have to go long) but too many parents and coaches on opposite teams (and within our own club) are focused on winning the games at this level. The focus should really be on getting players comfortable on the ball, teaching them how and when to pass and how and when to shoot. But as noted above, it's get the ball up the pitch and try and score. It is really, really frustrating.

Another thing that causes the problem and it's been touched on above, is that almost all football has to be "organised" My eldest's (9) team got beat 4-1 on Saturday morning and I was expecting a reaction, a go out, call on your friends and play football for a few hours and try and improve type reaction. Instead, he wanted to play fortnite all day. I can guarantee, that when we get to training on Wednesday and I ask the boys who all has been out playing football since Saturday that 1 or maybe 2 out of 10 hands will go up.

If folk aren't out there playing with their pals, and learning through doing, what chance have any of them got? Part of the problem as well, is that half of their parents won't let them out of their eyesight. Ohhh i can't walk the 300m to that grass pitch, my mum/dad says it's too far. When the parent themselves would have been allowed a much freer reign!

So, so frustrating.

[Keith_M]

I'm not long into coaching at the moment, but our 7 a side team have come up against teams like this. We do our best to try and keep the ball (though sometimes you have to go long) but too many parents and coaches on opposite teams (and within our own club) are focused on winning the games at this level. The focus should really be on getting players comfortable on the ball, teaching them how and when to pass and how and when to shoot. But as noted above, it's get the ball up the pitch and try and score. It is really, really frustrating.

Another thing that causes the problem and it's been touched on above, is that almost all football has to be "organised" My eldest's (9) team got beat 4-1 on Saturday morning and I was expecting a reaction, a go out, call on your friends and play football for a few hours and try and improve type reaction. Instead, he wanted to play fortnite all day. I can guarantee, that when we get to training on Wednesday and I ask the boys who all has been out playing football since Saturday that 1 or maybe 2 out of 10 hands will go up.

If folk aren't out there playing with their pals, and learning through doing, what chance have any of them got? Part of the problem as well, is that half of their parents won't let them out of their eyesight. Ohhh i can't walk the 300m to that grass pitch, my mum/dad says it's too far. When the parent themselves would have been allowed a much freer reign!

So, so frustrating.


I was briefly involved in helping out with the local primary school teams twenty years ago and observed exactly the same. In actual fact, the mothers that attended some of the games were the worst. I even attempted to calm some of them down a couple of times but that was a very dangerous venture.


Sounds like nothing much has changed.

[WhileTheChief..]

That's been my view for a long time. We need to get boys (and girls) playing with their pals and stop them having to travel 20 miles to join the elite boys team to try and get noticed.

If we need to pay the sports teachers to do it out of normal school hours, then let's do it.

How do we do that?

When I was a kid we all finished school then immediately had a kick about. No teachers, parents or coaches involved.

Now they don't. It's phones, tablets and Nandos etc.

Kids generally don't play nearly as much sport as they did decades ago, it's nobody's fault, it's just the way it is.

[CentreLine]

Sort of late to the thread but my own twopence worth would be that Scottish International Football started a steep decline when the international v England was abandoned. That was our benchmark and if we could win that game we were satisfied. Equally, if we could win that game it put us right up there amongst the top teams in the world.

It was politics that stopped this oldest of all international matches but it led to a free fall in out standing in international circles.

Reintroduce the England match on an annual basis and our Raison d’etre is restored. May take a couple of seasons but we would soon catch up IMHO

[Peevemor]

How do we do that?

When I was a kid we all finished school then immediately had a kick about. No teachers, parents or coaches involved.

Now they don't. It's phones, tablets and Nandos etc.

Kids generally don't play nearly as much sport as they did decades ago, it's nobody's fault, it's just the way it is.

I agree. It's the same here - I live in a wee town with plenty places where kids can have a kick-about but I very rarely see it happen.

France still seem to be doing OK though.

[neil7908]

How do we do that?

When I was a kid we all finished school then immediately had a kick about. No teachers, parents or coaches involved.

Now they don't. It's phones, tablets and Nandos etc.

Kids generally don't play nearly as much sport as they did decades ago, it's nobody's fault, it's just the way it is.

But that's surely the case in England, Northern Ireland, France, Holland, Germany etc.

Not having a go at you as no doubt technology is changing things but that's not just in Scotland. The "things were different in my day" doesn't really work when the changes are happening across the globe as well as Scotland.

I'm not sure I have the answer but I know it's not just Fortnite, smartphones etc.

[GreenCastle]

Rugby is no comparison to football on the international stage. It's played seriously by about 10 countries and unless your built like a tank you can forget it.

I'd be abandoning the national team entirely if it was full of Tarquins and Percivals who were only there as their parents had enough money to send them to private school.

What an odd view ?

Surely Scotland being successful shouldn’t matter on people’s backgrounds?

Andy Murray / Jamie Murray
Chris Hoy - Watson’s

Scottish Rugby Team

Just a few recent issues examples of players who have had a solid education and doing well.

I’m sorry but Scotland are missing out on a lot of good athletes as they don’t go near private schools.

[Brightside]

I hope you're never near a coaching role with kids with that ridiculous attitude.

Too many morons involved in coaching youth football. Lots of middle class kids have parents who are put off by the sheer stupidity of some of the people involved in the game. My eldest played right through boys club age groups and some of the men involved were a disgrace. My two younger boys have never been encouraged to play competitively, I just wouldn't want them exposed to it.

Just in case you want to call me a snowdrop (a term only used by fuds), I can reassure you of my working class credentials. I played for many years at a very good amateur standard. However, I am appalled at the moronic culture that surrounded football when I was a boy and was still prevalent when my eldest played ( my laddie was very talented, attracted pro interest and continues to play at a very decent level), it was fairly sickening at times. That puts people off the game, Tarquins or otherwise.

Agree with this. Football coaching is very poor in our country and not helped by what you hear on the side lines - from coaches and parents. Personally i think the coaching badges are a total waste of time and money. Coaching qualification should be done by assessment - go along and watch a coach take a session, take a team then advise of things that should change or be worked on. A coach will learn so much more spending time with good experienced coaches than they will wasting a day with the SFA.

[KeithTheHibby]

How do we do that?

When I was a kid we all finished school then immediately had a kick about. No teachers, parents or coaches involved.

Now they don't. It's phones, tablets and Nandos etc.

Kids generally don't play nearly as much sport as they did decades ago, it's nobody's fault, it's just the way it is.

To me that is a convenient excuse.

What are kids in Iceland, Belgium, Northern Ireland etc. doing?

There is something seriously wrong with the game in this country given the staggering decline in the last 20 years. The powers that be clearly have no idea how to stop this. Their silence is pathetic. I have pretty much zero respect for the organisations running our game.

[Smartie]

But that's surely the case in England, Northern Ireland, France, Holland, Germany etc.

Not having a go at you as no doubt technology is changing things but that's not just in Scotland. The "things were different in my day" doesn't really work when the changes are happening across the globe as well as Scotland.

I'm not sure I have the answer but I know it's not just Fortnite, smartphones etc.

There is a subtle difference between the "football in the street" and "playstation, smartphones" argument.

I remember seeing stats on an article a while back in relation to rugby, and it was about the number of people in a particular country who "play that sport regularly". There was a direct correlation between the number of people who play rugby regularly and the quality of the national side. Smaller countries like Ireland, New Zealand or Wales had huge numbers of people per head of population who actually played rugby regularly when compared to much bigger countries like England or France.

I wonder how many Scots genuinely play football regularly compared to Uruguay or Croatia, forgetting for a minute countries like Brazil, Russia or the USA?

I'm speculating here, but if we're not playing enough (or as much), why aren't we playing enough?

That's where the genuine conversation can come in about xboxes, parents' terror of paedophiles around every corner, access to indoor football pitches etc etc.

I've not got that much experience of youth coaching and I have no idea what happens at pro clubs. I have a 9 year old nephew who loves his football and plays for his local team, his dad (himself a former coach) says the standard of coaching, the commitment of the boys to their team and everything like that is faultless. When the national team lose a match and we start slaughtering folk like the guys who run his team, I always get the feeling we're missing the target.

Another thing my brother says - his wee boy plays a couple of times a week in organised football and he loves it, yet he never plays with his pals. Whenever I go over he loves just booting a ball about with me so it's not that he doesn't want to play. In his case it's more that he lives a bit out of the way, somewhere where there are fewer kids around.

[Brightside]

I have first hand experience of the disasters as a footballing nation we face and while I agree with some of what Boys is saying. I think we hit rock bottom a long time ago.

I’ve watched other coaches screaming at 10 year old boys to punt the ball up the pitch to get rid of it - this was at a 5 a side game on Astro turf. I’ve watched other coaches have training sessions that involved very little football work. I’ve also watched young lads be dropped from what can be considered elite youth teams, because they’re not good enough or can’t afford fees. I’ve coached at a team that charged £30 a month but didn’t have to pay any rental fees. I’ve seen football camps cost up to £1000 pounds for two kids for a 5 week programme- in north Edinburgh.

There’s examples of pro youth teams still charging kids in excess of £35 a month + kit fees. Overall, It’s simply a cost factor with very little experience and football in return.

For me - we need to start again. Coaches need to be paid and given as much experience as they possibly can. Kids need to be given more football time and help with fees. School teams need to become a thing again. Free facilities need to happen now.

What doesn’t help is a local parent coaching without any experience. Also not helped is the amount of ex-pros having football academy’s and charging a fortune. It all needs stripped out and kids need to enjoy playing football again. Pro youth teams need looked at it. We need to stop sending kids down south at such an early age to waste away on a bench or be loaned to some lower league teams. We need to stop pandering to the professional clubs. Not just the Glasgow two but all of them.

I can’t watch Scotland games anymore without laughing through the game at how bad a nation we are.

If parents didn't coach Scottish football would stop tomorrow. There would be almost no Youth football. Every club is supposed to have a Coach Educator. If clubs took that role seriously and the SFA did their job properly we would see continuous improvement of coaching and a better end product. Regional SFA coach coming along to clubs once a month for an education and assessment session.

[G B Young]

Rugby is no comparison to football on the international stage. It's played seriously by about 10 countries and unless your built like a tank you can forget it.

I'd be abandoning the national team entirely if it was full of Tarquins and Percivals who were only there as their parents had enough money to send them to private school.

How many top football playing countries are there in the world (ie those which have a realistic chance of winning a major tournament)? Less than 10 I imagine. The rest are makeweights who provide their fans with a fun trip if they qualify. As for having to be built like a tank to play rugby, that's simply not true. You've got to have pace to burn in the back line. And to claim it's all posh boys doesn't stand up to scrutiny either. A good number of Scotland's best current players, such as long-time skipper Greig Laidlaw and superstar full back (and Hibs fan) Stuart Hogg are state-school educated.

Bottom line, the Scotland rugby team hold their own close to the top of an exceptionally high-quality field at international level, something the footballers can only dream of.

[Jones28]

Rugby is no comparison to football on the international stage. It's played seriously by about 10 countries and unless your built like a tank you can forget it.

I'd be abandoning the national team entirely if it was full of Tarquins and Percivals who were only there as their parents had enough money to send them to private school.

And yet in the Borders it is perceived as the working mans game?

The SRU transformed rugby in this country, the SFA can surely take something from that given that football draws in bigger crowds, more advertising revenue and has at least one club game a week on tele.

As for Kris Boyd, all slaver with no substance whatsoever. All the more concerning is that he doesn’t seem to think we’ve hit rock bottom. How much ****ter do we need to be?

[J-C]

Do we still have working and middle classes? There's still upper class as we've all seen in recent government events but I think the rest get merged together.

I would say the main thing missing is hunger and desire, too many players thinking they've made it when in reality they're only half way there. McGinn being a great example, worked very hard to get where he is, he was one of the better players on Friday and I don't think he came from a poor working class background.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm not long into coaching at the moment, but our 7 a side team have come up against teams like this. We do our best to try and keep the ball (though sometimes you have to go long) but too many parents and coaches on opposite teams (and within our own club) are focused on winning the games at this level. The focus should really be on getting players comfortable on the ball, teaching them how and when to pass and how and when to shoot. But as noted above, it's get the ball up the pitch and try and score. It is really, really frustrating.

Another thing that causes the problem and it's been touched on above, is that almost all football has to be "organised" My eldest's (9) team got beat 4-1 on Saturday morning and I was expecting a reaction, a go out, call on your friends and play football for a few hours and try and improve type reaction. Instead, he wanted to play fortnite all day. I can guarantee, that when we get to training on Wednesday and I ask the boys who all has been out playing football since Saturday that 1 or maybe 2 out of 10 hands will go up.

If folk aren't out there playing with their pals, and learning through doing, what chance have any of them got? Part of the problem as well, is that half of their parents won't let them out of their eyesight. Ohhh i can't walk the 300m to that grass pitch, my mum/dad says it's too far. When the parent themselves would have been allowed a much freer reign!

So, so frustrating.

"If you don't teach them to be winners, they'll be losers all their life", said the coach of my son's P6 team. He had about two dozen kids turning up to training but picked the biggest/strongest 10 or so and essentially told the rest to bugger off. Then proceeded to play 7 a sides with tactics that would've made Craig Levein blush. Unbelievable. :rolleyes:

[YanYansen]

We are a small country with a small pool of people to choose from for elite sport. Other small countries do better than us and that is where there is understandable cause for concern.

Yes it is indeed. Scotland's population: 5.425m

Croatia: 4.154m
Serbia: 7.022m
ROI: 4.784m
Belgium: 11.35m

So we can dispense with that old chestnut. So what are the other possible factors?


(To generalise) We are a nation of idle, druggy, drunken negative thinkers who absolutely revel in pointing out the shortcomings or failings of anyone and everyone else - then demand the same people fix all those ills for us.

I realise you're being facetious here, but there's a grain of truth. The Republic of Ireland is probably the best example here. Almost exactly as big as us population-wise, most of their players based in the British Isles, and culturally very similar apart from in on crucial aspect (in my opinion, before anyone starts frothing). That aspect is that they are a fully-fledged country, and consequently don't have the dour, blame-everything-on-powers-beyond-our-control attitude that's so prevalent here (and of course informs the fact that even while we are witnessing lies and incompetence on a truly staggering level in Westminster, there are still people up here who don't think we'd be better off managing our own affairs. But that's another thread...). Anyway -

Factor 1: national psyche.


Another thing that causes the problem and it's been touched on above, is that almost all football has to be "organised" My eldest's (9) team got beat 4-1 on Saturday morning and I was expecting a reaction, a go out, call on your friends and play football for a few hours and try and improve type reaction. Instead, he wanted to play fortnite all day. I can guarantee, that when we get to training on Wednesday and I ask the boys who all has been out playing football since Saturday that 1 or maybe 2 out of 10 hands will go up.
If folk aren't out there playing with their pals, and learning through doing, what chance have any of them got? Part of the problem as well, is that half of their parents won't let them out of their eyesight. Ohhh i can't walk the 300m to that grass pitch, my mum/dad says it's too far. When the parent themselves would have been allowed a much freer reign!

I think this aspect also can't be ignored. My ex is Romanian, and in her family, quite apart from the fact that Xboxes and the like aren't standard issue in every home, the idea that the kids would be allowed to sit in the house all day is absolutely absurd to them. It doesn't matter if they want to go out or not, they are booted out the door. In Romania, most of the boys would go out and play basketball, weirdly enough, but they play football too, obviously. However, this is really difficult when it's become so ingrained in our culture; i.e. if I was to boot my daughter out the door, there would be no-one else there to actually play with. Nevertheless-

Factor 2: kids indoors too much.


I agree with this. The middle class thing is simplistic nonsense from Boyd.
The SFA have no interest in change which is why Mark Wotte was forced out.

I'm going to interpret the Kevin de Bruyne thing a little more obliquely. It was noted that he speaks three languages, and I don't think this is an insignificant observation, but it's not related to class, imo. Look at the where the recent starting line-ups of the following teams play their club football:

Belgium: Spain, England, Japan, France, Belgium, Italy.
Serbia: Spain, Italy, Germany, England, Holland.
Croatia: Croatia, Scotland, Turkey, England, Denmark, Italy, Spain, Russia, Germany.

See where I'm going with this?

Scotland: Scotland, England.

I don't think it's insignificant that pretty much 100% of Scottish players seem utterly allergic to pursuing their fortunes overseas, which I think is in large part due to fear of learning other languages. In our entire squad last night, only Johnny Russell plays outside this island (in the USA). I can think of Bates and of course Liam Henderson Delivers (who isn't even in the conversation?), but other than that, you get the drift. Our footballers are incredibly parochial, and I think that has a bearing on being able to adapt to different styles of play at international level, and also in a subtler sense, they are simply not used to being outside their own wee bubble in general, other than transferring to a big hotel in Dubai. So -

Factor 3: Our footballers never leave the domestic scene (or British scene, more accurately).

As a final observation, the Croatian league is also utterly dominated by two teams (Dinamo Zagreb and Hadjuk Split), going back to 1992 its top league has only been won twice outside those two sides. Similarly, going back to 1992, the Serbian league has only been won once by a team other than the Belgrade two, Partizan and Red Star. My instinct though is to say that, related to the above, their players perhaps see playing for the big two sides as simply a stepping-stone to leaving, whereas in Scotland, so many seem satisfied with that being the pinnacle of their career - at best, they will try their hand in England for a wee while.

Factor 4: The Old Firm are not in and of themselves the problem.


So what is to be done? **** knows, I'm afraid. The situation seems endemic, and it doesn't help that the people charged with driving our game seem to have all the vision of a Morningside golf club committee.

[JeMeSouviens]

How many top football playing countries are there in the world (ie those which have a realistic chance of winning a major tournament)? Less than 10 I imagine. The rest are makeweights who provide their fans with a fun trip if they qualify. As for having to be built like a tank to play rugby, that's simply not true. You've got to have pace to burn in the back line. And to claim it's all posh boys doesn't stand up to scrutiny either. A good number of Scotland's best current players, such as long-time skipper Greig Laidlaw and superstar full back (and Hibs fan) Stuart Hogg are state-school educated.

Bottom line, the Scotland rugby team hold their own close to the top of an exceptionally high-quality field at international level, something the footballers can only dream of.

It didn't used to be true, it is now. You don't stand a glimmer of succeeding at elite level in rugby unless you're willing to put in serious gymn time, and that's the backs as well as the forwards. Steroid abuse is rampant.

Don't agree with your last sentence either. In the 6N, Scotland are routine wooden spoon contenders with Italy. Only England have broken the NZ/Aus/SA stranglehold of the world cup. Ireland/Wales/France could conceivably push into that group. So that's an international elite of 4-7 teams.

[G B Young]

It didn't used to be true, it is now. You don't stand a glimmer of succeeding at elite level in rugby unless you're willing to put in serious gymn time, and that's the backs as well as the forwards. Steroid abuse is rampant.

Don't agree with your last sentence either. In the 6N, Scotland are routine wooden spoon contenders with Italy. Only England have broken the NZ/Aus/SA stranglehold of the world cup. Ireland/Wales/France could conceivably push into that group. So that's an international elite of 4-7 teams.

Yeh, I agree that international rugby players are a lot fitter and stronger than they were in the amateur era, but putting in some serious gym time should surely be required of all professional sportsmen and women in this day and age. If you check out the fitness routines of, say, Andy Murray and Novak Djokovic, you can see what's required in addition to talent to reach the very top of your sport. Do our footballers really give it their all in terms of preparation?

I don't doubt there's steroid use across a lot of sports (tennis comes under the spotlight a lot) but is abuse really 'rampant' in rugby?

I wasn't saying Scotland are among the elite of world rugby, just pointing out that by and large they manage to remain relatively competitive, even against the top sides - something we can't say about our footballers.

I'd suggest that (for a long time now) you're likely to get better value for money at a Scotland rugby match than watching the football team - perhaps illustrated by the fact over 52k were at a Murrayfield friendly at the same time as Scotland were taking on Russia in a Hampden qualifier in front of 20k fewer fans.

[1875-Hibernia]

If parents didn't coach Scottish football would stop tomorrow. There would be almost no Youth football. Every club is supposed to have a Coach Educator. If clubs took that role seriously and the SFA did their job properly we would see continuous improvement of coaching and a better end product. Regional SFA coach coming along to clubs once a month for an education and assessment session.

Don’t mistake what I’m saying- I realise the importance of coaching from parents. The time, effort, patience and commitment are only some of the factors they give. What I’m saying is that. And it falls in to what you’ve said. They need better educated. Imo all coaches should be qualified before helping out, which should be paid for by the club or government/ SFA. There should also be assessors every quarter to make sure things are going as should be. As well as learning new practises.

That way it should eradicate the behaviour that we currently see and what I have mentioned.

[Smartie]

Do we still have working and middle classes? There's still upper class as we've all seen in recent government events but I think the rest get merged together.

I would say the main thing missing is hunger and desire, too many players thinking they've made it when in reality they're only half way there. McGinn being a great example, worked very hard to get where he is, he was one of the better players on Friday and I don't think he came from a poor working class background.

I think there's a very small upper class and a very small group at the other end who live in abject poverty then there is a huge middle ground containing all sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds doing all sorts of jobs but this group will provide 99% of our footballers.

The people who won't be able to afford to pay to play football will be very small and I'm sure if the player had the talent then there would be a way found to get around it.

Football is increasingly expensive but folk make sacrifices to give their kids opportunities. Boyd will hear a lot of moaning about what he charges and that sort of stuff rubs off on you. The bottom line is it must be pretty amazing to be a kid who goes to a Kris Boyd football school, he has his outgoings and charges appropriately. It's wrong to extrapolate that into something it isn't.

[WhileTheChief..]

What are kids in Iceland, Belgium, Northern Ireland etc. doing?
.

Probably playing a lot more football in the streets than kids here!

Practice makes perfect has been a mantra for thousands of years for a reason.

[JeMeSouviens]

Yeh, I agree that international rugby players are a lot fitter and stronger than they were in the amateur era, but putting in some serious gym time should surely be required of all professional sportsmen and women in this day and age. If you check out the fitness routines of, say, Andy Murray and Novak Djokovic, you can see what's required in addition to talent to reach the very top of your sport. Do our footballers really give it their all in terms of preparation?

I don't doubt there's steroid use across a lot of sports (tennis comes under the spotlight a lot) but is abuse really 'rampant' in rugby?

I wasn't saying Scotland are among the elite of world rugby, just pointing out that by and large they manage to remain relatively competitive, even against the top sides - something we can't say about our footballers.

I'd suggest that (for a long time now) you're likely to get better value for money at a Scotland rugby match than watching the football team - perhaps illustrated by the fact over 52k were at a Murrayfield friendly at the same time as Scotland were taking on Russia in a Hampden qualifier in front of 20k fewer fans.


Actually it's not just the gymn time. The star of the rugby team my son used to play in has just been discarded from the SRU's elite pathway because he's deemed too small. He's about 5'10" I think and plays stand off. Not slightly built either.

On steroids:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/26/rugby-steroids-olympic-games-rio
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/drugs-rugby-very-welsh-problem-15313345

I think the Scottish football team have reached the sort of depths the rugby team were in about the time of Frank Hadden.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/scottish/6389855.stm

To be fair to the rugby team and the SRU, they've turned it a long way round since then.

[Ozyhibby]

To do the kind of revamp of the national game that the Belgians did would require the SFA to spend money. Unfortunately Petrie has a massive infrastructure project at Hampden to do first. Probably get round to it about 2035. We’ll have a great team in 2050.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Northern Hibby]

Nothing more depressing than a large grass area with a "No Ball Games" sign, some kids use to kick a ball in front of my house, sometimes it ended up in the garden no biggy, police turned up once cause there had been a complaint (I know who), I said I'd rather see kids playing on it,than some fecken twats precious car parked on it, cause he has to see it from his living room window!!

[ancient hibee]

I think when Boyd was talking about the "middle class" sport, he wasn't just talking about the money.

I think he mentioned about kids being driven to football matches by their dads, who had to have the time and dedication to take their kids to training and matches. The dads then being their sons biggest critic/supporter, which ever way you want to describe them. He was pointing out that probably half the boys don't really want to play football any way, or at least put in the dedication that you need to be a good footballer.

Whereas the kids Boyd thinks we should be targeting are the kids from the housing schemes, most probably the kids that their fathers don't know / don't care what they get up to during the day. The "rough as ****" kids who would have a certain level of aggression that other kids wouldn't mess with. Now it's all to nice, all to passive - anyone with any aggression would probably be chucked out of the boys club. We've got 4G pitches that no-one can afford to play. We've got "no ball game" signs up preventing boys from playing football.

In my day, there was no organised boys clubs. The only organised football was via the school. We used to have 30 a side games at breaks that then continued after school. In my school team, we had a Scotland internationalist and around 3 or 4 kids who played Highland League to varying standards. I honestly don't recall one game that any dad would come and watch. Not once did I ever get a lift to a match or to football training.

I don't think Boyd is suggesting going back to those days, but the words he said was "the template isn't working guys". I think he's suggesting that we need to get the kids back out playing football with their mates everywhere and anywhere that they can. With the set up we've got now, everything is becoming a barrier to kids developing their raw skills. Kids should be playing with their pals down the street, not being driven miles to attend a boys club 20 miles away in the hope that they get noticed.

Well done Boyd for his rant. It's much needed and about time someone said it.

His ominous summation was that we've not bottomed out yet. I think he's correct.

You must be really,really ancient if there were no boys clubs in your day.In the 1950s I was in Crossroads Boys Clubs,run by the great Eric Gardiner,and even then it was producing players who went on to have good professional careers.

[Brightside]

Nothing more depressing than a large grass area with a "No Ball Games" sign, some kids use to kick a ball in front of my house, sometimes it ended up in the garden no biggy, police turned up once cause there had been a complaint (I know who), I said I'd rather see kids playing on it,than some fecken twats precious car parked on it, cause he has to see it from his living room window!!

This No Ball Games thing is a red herring. Hundreds of pitches lie empty away from organised football. The culture has just changed in the UK especially. Kids are just allowed to lie about in houses all day/night. And have to carry a water bottle for fear of falling down dead. More and more kids just can't be bothered to play football in their spare time.....ive no idea how that will change if parents arent interested in pushing it and actually parenting.

[Since452]

I'm going to see if i have any Dutch or Italian heritage so i can start following them. It's pish being Scottish. Quite fancy taking in a Euros/World cup and i ain't supporting England.

[WhileTheChief..]

More and more kids just can't be bothered to play football in their spare time..

Summed up nicely.

They want the instant glory and success but don't want to have to put in any effort to get it.

[MWHIBBIES]

Summed up nicely.

They want the instant glory and success but don't want to have to put in any effort to get it.

Or maybe they just enjoy video games more than playing football.

[J-C]

I'm going to see if i have any Dutch or Italian heritage so i can start following them. It's pish being Scottish. Quite fancy taking in a Euros/World cup and i ain't supporting England.


My great grandfather was Spanish, I might use that loophole.

[Sudds_1]

Or maybe they just enjoy video games more than playing football.

Yeah...fifa 2018?

[theonlywayisup]

You must be really,really ancient if there were no boys clubs in your day.In the 1950s I was in Crossroads Boys Clubs,run by the great Eric Gardiner,and even then it was producing players who went on to have good professional careers.

I come from the Highlands, there was no boys club in my town. Only football was school football or a kickabout with your pals.

[MSK]

My great grandfather was Spanish, I might use that loophole.My late Gran was born and raised in Montreal Canada, my great Grandad was born in Castlebar Co Mayo, think I will stick to Scotland 😆

[Hibby Bairn]

There is a subtle difference between the "football in the street" and "playstation, smartphones" argument.

I remember seeing stats on an article a while back in relation to rugby, and it was about the number of people in a particular country who "play that sport regularly". There was a direct correlation between the number of people who play rugby regularly and the quality of the national side. Smaller countries like Ireland, New Zealand or Wales had huge numbers of people per head of population who actually played rugby regularly when compared to much bigger countries like England or France.

I wonder how many Scots genuinely play football regularly compared to Uruguay or Croatia, forgetting for a minute countries like Brazil, Russia or the USA?

I'm speculating here, but if we're not playing enough (or as much), why aren't we playing enough?



I think this theory is more or less proven by the current better countries in the women’s game. For example I think the ratio of girls playing football in Sweden v Scotland is something like 10:1.

[Jones28]

I’ve been thinking a lot about this today - would it be unreasonable to suggest that the SPL trying to get sky to give them more money is where the cracks start to show?

It’s a long time ago but the malaise around the Scottish national team really started around that time, and what we’re seeing now is the general decline of the standard of the Scottish game because we can’t compete with England to hold on to the best Scottish players. As a result a lot of them will go down south, bumble about for a few years and come back again or stay in Scotland playing lesser opposition. So we then have a situation where all we do (or this seemed to be the case a few years ago) is look for anyone who is eligible and playing in England and offer them caps.

[Brightside]

Or maybe they just enjoy video games more than playing football.

Because it’s easier and parents make life so easy for kids now in general. We were out all day and night coz the best we had was an Atari. Now they are online with pals all night playing Fifa. They hardly even socialise f2f.

[The dalmeny]

My late Gran was born and raised in Montreal Canada, my great Grandad was born in Castlebar Co Mayo, think I will stick to Scotland 😆

Ice hockey?

[MSK]

Ice hockey?Nah, shinty

[mjhibby]

Here's my tuppence worth. Two things need to change or we will be stuck in this decline.
Firstly we need to coach kids properly at youth level. They are being taught all about fitness and pace and are not coached in game awareness and touch.The russians looked like they had an extra man such was their movement but they are an average team. The bigger youth setups just hoover up the best players and win trophies.
You only have to look how few guys we are producing for the hibs first team. The talent is there if coached properly and countries like Croatia have shown its nothing to do with population.
Secondly we have to make the spl competetive. Its no coincidence we struggled internationally since tbr bigot bros stopped having fetgie to deal with. I know it wont happen but unless we have hibs, Hertz snd the dons up there then the bigot Bros will just have teams full of non scots.Im not optimistic at either youth level or spl so im afraid we are in for years of turgid stuff im afraid.

[Joe6-2]

My great grandfather was Spanish, I might use that loophole.

I would! 🇪🇸

[Northern Hibby]

This No Ball Games thing is a red herring. Hundreds of pitches lie empty away from organised football. The culture has just changed in the UK especially. Kids are just allowed to lie about in houses all day/night. And have to carry a water bottle for fear of falling down dead. More and more kids just can't be bothered to play football in their spare time.....ive no idea how that will change if parents arent interested in pushing it and actually parenting.

The kids were playing football.

[Onceinawhile]

I listened to the podcast about Belgian football that was put up either on this thread or one of the similar ones. The bits about encouraging dribbling instead of passing at a young age was quite interesting, because it's easy to pass, but more difficult to learn to dribble. That was something I'd never thought of.

Also listened to the podcast with a Croatian coach. A Croatian grass roots coach needs to go through nearly 200 hours of learning to take a team. For a Scottish coach it's only about 6! No wonder their coaches are better than ours.

[Smartie]

So what do we all make of our U21s winning in Croatia tonight then?

[The Modfather]

So what do we all make of our U21s winning in Croatia tonight then?

A good win, but changes nothing in terms of the deep rooted problems with Scottish football and the national team.

[WhileTheChief..]

Or maybe they just enjoy video games more than playing football.

Agreed. I said as much earlier in the thread.

[ballengeich]

So what do we all make of our U21s winning in Croatia tonight then?

The Scotland team included Jordan Holsgrove. Is he the son of Paul Holsgrove who played for us under McLeish?

[Smartie]

The Scotland team included Jordan Holsgrove. Is he the son of Paul Holsgrove who played for us under McLeish?

Yes, he is.

A good player by all accounts.

[ballengeich]

Yes, he is.

A good player by all accounts.

Thanks

[Scorrie]

Scotland u21s beat Croatia away last night. Perhaps there are decent Scottish players coming through now...?

[bingo70]

Scotland u21s beat Croatia away last night. Perhaps there are decent Scottish players coming through now...?

I always think the results at the under age groups doesn’t tell us anything about how well our game is doing.

A far better indicator is how many under 21’s are in the full national squad. On the face of it beating Croatia is a great result but how many of the best Croatian under 21’s are in their full set up? I’ve no idea if the answer to that question by the way, it could be none, as a general rule though I don’t think results for the under age groups is really a pointer either way. I’d rather we lost 10 nil last night but had 4 under 21 players making a positive impact in the senior side, same applies to the younger age groups at Hibs.

That said, still nice to see Scotland winning at last and won’t do the confidence of the youngsters any harm.

[Brightside]

I always think the results at the under age groups doesn’t tell us anything about how well our game is doing.

A far better indicator is how many under 21’s are in the full national squad. On the face of it beating Croatia is a great result but how many of the best Croatian under 21’s are in their full set up? I’ve no idea if the answer to that question by the way, it could be none, as a general rule though I don’t think results for the under age groups is really a pointer either way. I’d rather we lost 10 nil last night but had 4 under 21 players making a positive impact in the senior side, same applies to the younger age groups at Hibs.

That said, still nice to see Scotland winning at last and won’t do the confidence of the youngsters any harm.

I think a lot of the good stuff that happens with the younger groups goes out the window at full cap stage. For me thats part of the problem. Stick to a style and build a team from 19s onwards and take that team all the way. What actually happens is we suddenly go out and try and cap players that are generally not scottish, or have not been through the pathway. We know we are murder right now so actually implement a 10 year plan to take all these performance kids all the way to a full squad. Bang average physical players is not the way forward.

[MWHIBBIES]

Because it’s easier and parents make life so easy for kids now in general. We were out all day and night coz the best we had was an Atari. Now they are online with pals all night playing Fifa. They hardly even socialise f2f.

Or because they actually just prefer playing video games? There isn't some template that kids must fit into, they can do what they like with their free time and if the prefer to play FIFA with friends rather than going out, why not?

[Smartie]

Or because they actually just prefer playing video games? There isn't some template that kids must fit into, they can do what they like with their free time and if the prefer to play FIFA with friends rather than going out, why not?

Computers aren't new. I had one as a kid and left to my own devices I'd have played it all day every day. My mum had to scream at me to go out and do something constructive instead - which I'd do, and enjoy.

I wonder how much time those on here who are castigating the PlayStation generation spend glued to a mobile phone or laptop themself, quite possibly arguing the toss on this site?

[GreenCastle]

Scotland u21s beat Croatia away last night. Perhaps there are decent Scottish players coming through now...?

Croatia were missing...

Vlasic, Brekalo, Katie, Benkovic, Caleta-Car and Palaversa.

I wouldn't use a fluke u21 win to say the game will improve any time soon.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Croatia were missing...

Vlasic, Brekalo, Katie, Benkovic, Caleta-Car and Palaversa.

I wouldn't use a fluke u21 win to say the game will improve any time soon.


the history books won't show that, the score stands

[cabbageandribs1875]

we do appear to be a bit of a hoodoo to the full croatian team over the years


P5 W2 D3...........can we play them every week :)

[Scorrie]

Croatia were missing...

Vlasic, Brekalo, Katie, Benkovic, Caleta-Car and Palaversa.

I wouldn't use a fluke u21 win to say the game will improve any time soon.

I was trying to be positive and having seen the highlights, Scotland played with pace and skill. Gemmill made the changes and got the result. A win is a win but good to see decent coaching at least

[neil7908]

Computers aren't new. I had one as a kid and left to my own devices I'd have played it all day every day. My mum had to scream at me to go out and do something constructive instead - which I'd do, and enjoy.

I wonder how much time those on here who are castigating the PlayStation generation spend glued to a mobile phone or laptop themself, quite possibly arguing the toss on this site?

This. Again, all the stuff about computers, phones, games etc is a complete red herring. These things exist in North Ireland, Holland, Belgium, Iceland, Croatia etc. Unless someone can point me to a stat showing our kids are online significantly more than other countries its a pointless argument.

In fact our under 21s, who are unquestionably part of the social media generation just beat Croatia on their own patch last night.

What the answer is I don't know but blaming screens isn't it.

[cabbageandribs1875]

shut off streets from traffic and let the kids play football....with a tennis ball, that's how we honed our technical skills back in the day :greengrin

[theonlywayisup]

In the wake of Scotland's failure to keep alive hopes of automatic Euro 2020 qualification, the Scottish FA are set to launch a root-and-branch review of their youth development strategy, with the £700,000 annual spend on seven performance schools coming under close scrutiny. (Daily Mail, print edition).

Another review, maybe best to dust down the previous one.

[Colr]

The SFA should be funding a programme so that everyone taking football from nursery, primary, afterschool clubs, BB, and so on is trained as a coach.

[BILLYHIBS]

Unleash Leigh Griffiths on the Russians