Massacre at Ballymurphy (C4 tonight)

[Carheenlea]

This should be an interesting documentary airing tonight. The inquest is currently ongoing and this film will give viewers a greater understanding of one of the most harrowing events during the Troubles.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.joe.ie/amp/movies-tv/channel-4-troubles-documentary-639667

Massacre at Ballymurphy - Channel 4, 9pm tonight.

[ronaldo7]

Looking forward to this.

[Pretty Boy]

And people wonder why some Northern Irish nationalists feel uncomfortable wearing a poppy.....

[Carheenlea]

And people wonder why some Northern Irish nationalists feel uncomfortable wearing a poppy.....

Absolutely. That was a difficult watch from the position of a neutral observer looking back from what is now a relative time of peace and being able to reflect and look back to these difficult and turbulent times to try and get a better understanding of the conflict, let alone those who had had their families torn apart and lost close friends and loved ones.

[ronaldo7]

Absolutely. That was a difficult watch from the position of a neutral observer looking back from what is now a relative time of peace and being able to reflect and look back to these difficult and turbulent times to try and get a better understanding of the conflict, let alone those who had had their families torn apart and lost close friends and loved ones.

I'd forgotten about the thousands who were bussed south after the British Army and the b specials started burning houses to get the nationalists out.

It was a sad watch, and brought home what happens when the British Army lose control, as they have in many areas.

I hope the families get some justice, although the pain still lives with them.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I'm gonna catch it on catch-up. But these sort of things are what make me very uncomfortable with the fairly recent overt militarization of remembrance, and every ex-squaddie being seen as some sort of hero. If me and mine were born a couple of hundred miles to the west, that could have been us - in our own country - a sobering thought.

I almost don't blame the army, they are only doing what they are ordered to do, and ultimately an army is designed to be unthinking, violent and aggressive. But deploying them in the first place was the problem.

It was perhaps one of Thatcher's cleverest moves to move towards her policy of criminalization and dealing with it as more of a law and order problem.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

And people wonder why some Northern Irish nationalists feel uncomfortable wearing a poppy.....

It was interesting to hear other serving British Army officers condemn the actions of 1 Para and say that they wanted nothing to do with them. It is a scandal that Ballymurphy is not as high profile as Bloody Sunday. Equally scandalous are the continuing efforts by Arlene Foster to hinder a proper investigation into what happened. I can't see her coming under any pressure to change given that she has the whip hand over Theresa.

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm gonna catch it on catch-up. But these sort of things are what make me very uncomfortable with the fairly recent overt militarization of remembrance, and every ex-squaddie being seen as some sort of hero. If me and mine were born a couple of hundred miles to the west, that could have been us - in our own country - a sobering thought.

I almost don't blame the army, they are only doing what they are ordered to do, and ultimately an army is designed to be unthinking, violent and aggressive. But deploying them in the first place was the problem.

It was perhaps one of Thatcher's cleverest moves to move towards her policy of criminalization and dealing with it as more of a law and order problem.

Although she enthusiastically embraced it, the criminalisation policy was actually started by the previous Labour government when Merlyn Rees was the NI secretary.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Although she enthusiastically embraced it, the criminalisation policy was actually started by the previous Labour government when Merlyn Rees was the NI secretary.

Yeah fair enough, it's been a while since a studied that era - I stand corrected JMS 😀

[ronaldo7]

And people wonder why some Northern Irish nationalists feel uncomfortable wearing a poppy.....

I'm more surprised that the ex army boys are not all over this thread, standing up for the Brutish Army.

All quiet on the falls sah!

[Mibbes Aye]

Although she enthusiastically embraced it, the criminalisation policy was actually started by the previous Labour government when Merlyn Rees was the NI secretary.

Think it’s fair to say there were probably two phases in terms of ‘softness’ by the UK government. Like you say, there was the soft approach under Wilson. Thatcher was hardline and then shifted tact, which Major and Blair followed

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm more surprised that the ex army boys are not all over this thread, standing up for the Brutish Army.

All quiet on the falls sah!

There's nothing anyone can say to defend what went down that day. The order obviously came down from the top to play hardball and the Paras obviously interpreted that in their own special way. It's no coincidence that they were involved in the Bloody Sunday shootings a short while afterwards. To attribute these atrocities carried out by the Paras and with the blessing of the U.K. government with other members of the armed forces is going too far though.

[ronaldo7]

There's nothing anyone can say to defend what went down that day. The order obviously came down from the top to play hardball and the Paras obviously interpreted that in their own special way. It's no coincidence that they were involved in the Bloody Sunday shootings a short while afterwards. To attribute these atrocities carried out by the Paras and with the blessing of the U.K. government with other members of the armed forces is going too far though.

At least you've popped your head above the parapet P. The others are very quiet.

I'm not attributing anything to anyone, except the murderers in the paras who carried out the atrocities.

I'd have thought the ex army types might have had something to say about it.

Sergeant Blackman springs to mind though.( I know he was a marine, but you get my drift)

[One Day]

Very interesting documentary, lets hope the families get some answers

[JimBHibees]

Very interesting documentary, lets hope the families get some answers

Wouldn't bank on it. Shameful murder of innocents.

[BullsCloseHibs]

Wouldn't bank on it. Shameful murder of innocents.

Totally agree. The UK government will always let you hear what IT wants. Not what YOU want to hear. The Westminster Dictatorship still lives on I'm afraid.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Totally agree. The UK government will always let you hear what IT wants. Not what YOU want to hear. The Westminster Dictatorship still lives on I'm afraid.

That's true, but it's true of all sides- the fog of war.

The provos had a very effective propaganda machine throughout the troubles.

Not that I'm saying the British army didn't act like ****s, I have no doubt they did. But spin is not unique to them.

[Mibbes Aye]

That's true, but it's true of all sides- the fog of war.

The provos had a very effective propaganda machine throughout the troubles.

Not that I'm saying the British army didn't act like ****s, I have no doubt they did. But spin is not unique to them.

I think that’s right and probably evidenced by the nonsensical speaking ban that UK gov introduced in the eighties. PIRA were pretty hot on comms.

Media was a very different place then but quite clearly you couldn’t imagine something like that now, or even back when the 24/7 news cycle and readily-available internet kicked in.

[Pretty Boy]

Bumping this.

Inquest finds the 10 victims of the massacre were innocent.

50 years it's taken for the families to have it officially confirmed what was already well known. There's no closure here but hopefully there is a bit of peace to be found for those who lost loved ones.

[ronaldo7]

British state murder...who'll pay?

[Hibrandenburg]

British state murder...who'll pay?

Not those responsible, that's for sure.

[Killiehibbie]

Not those responsible, that's for sure.

I know a couple of retired soldiers, too young for this case, who are worried about ending up in court for things that happened in Ulster.

[Hibrandenburg]

I know a couple of retired soldiers, too young for this case, who are worried about ending up in court for things that happened in Ulster.

Me too. These guys were trained for war, prepared for war and told they were going into a war zone. They were met by angry civilians protesting for equality. As always in armed conflict, it's the decision makers at blame but it's the pawns that will pay the price.

[Peanut Shaz]

I know a couple of retired soldiers, too young for this case, who are worried about ending up in court for things that happened in Ulster.

I know an ex Para who was in NI at that time and was definitely involved on the front line. To this day he will not have his photograph taken at any social event, does not tell anyone who doesn't know him he is ex military, is ex directory, still checks underneath his car etc. He is genuinely still worried for his safety all these years on.

[Killiehibbie]

Me too. These guys were trained for war, prepared for war and told they were going into a war zone. They were met by angry civilians protesting for equality. As always in armed conflict, it's the decision makers at blame but it's the pawns that will pay the price.

Yet the government refused to call it a war.

[Hibrandenburg]

Yet the government refused to call it a war.

That obviously didn't filter down to the Paras.

[Pretty Boy]

Not those responsible, that's for sure.

At least one of them seemed to find promotions and honours very easy to come by. He was present and in a position of command on Bloody Sunday as well........

[Hibrandenburg]

At least one of them seemed to find promotions and honours very easy to come by. He was present and in a position of command on Bloody Sunday as well........

:agree: Any investigation needs to get at who gave the orders, even the Paras (I could tell you a few stories about them) wouldn't open fire on protesting civilians without having been given the green light.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Just one more shameful chapter in the story of centuries of English/Scottish/British domination of Ireland. Justice fifty years too late, just like Bloody Sunday, but better late than never.

[lord bunberry]

What a horrible time that was, I’m watching the documentary now and it’s so sad to hear the accounts of the people that lost friends and family. I accept the point that has been made about soldiers obeying orders, but I can’t accept the fact that shooting unarmed people is anything other than a war crime.

[lord bunberry]

I wonder how many of us would have joined the IRA or even have sypathised with their cause after experiencing something like that. I hate violence and hated what the IRA did when they killed innocent people, but maybe that’s because I didn’t live under the horrible conditions these people did.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I wonder how many of us would have joined the IRA or even have sypathised with their cause after experiencing something like that. I hate violence and hated what the IRA did when they killed innocent people, but maybe that’s because I didn’t live under the horrible conditions these people did.

Such massacres were not only morally wrong but were counter-productive, because they created intense hostility and drove people into joining resistance groups, including armed groups. They were a propaganda gift to militant Republicanism. It's often said the reason the IRA didn't kill Ian Paisley was because he was the best recruitment officer they had.

The vast majority of us, I'm sure, would say we would never get involved in violence, but how does one know until one is really tested in extraordinary circumstances? Amidst madness otherwise reasonable people commit crazy acts. Look at Palestine now: what do you do when you've been under illegal occupation for over fifty years and the international community does nothing to enforce international law; when you're terrorised every day of your life; degraded, helpless and hopeless? Who can say how far any of us could be pushed before we snapped?

[lord bunberry]

Such massacres were not only morally wrong but were counter-productive, because they created intense hostility and drove people into joining resistance groups, including armed groups. They were a propaganda gift to militant Republicanism. It's often said the reason the IRA didn't kill Ian Paisley was because he was the best recruitment officer they had.

The vast majority of us, I'm sure, would say we would never get involved in violence, but how does one know until one is really tested in extraordinary circumstances? Amidst madness otherwise reasonable people commit crazy acts. Look at Palestine now: what do you do when you've been under illegal occupation for over fifty years and the international community does nothing to enforce international law; when you're terrorised every day of your life; degraded, helpless and hopeless? Who can say how far any of us could be pushed before we snapped?
Thats definitely the question, I don’t want to admit it, but I’d probably be one of the people fighting against the injustice that was happening. Thank **** our independence movement will be achieved by peaceful means.

[The Harp Awakes]

Boris will shortly pass legislation to stop murderers in the British Army from facing justice. 1 Para - British Army assassins but somehow they are portrayed as the good guys.

That documentary was disturbing.

[JeMeSouviens]

I wonder how many of us would have joined the IRA or even have sypathised with their cause after experiencing something like that. I hate violence and hated what the IRA did when they killed innocent people, but maybe that’s because I didn’t live under the horrible conditions these people did.

It's a very good question. If you brutalise and dehumanise people enough then they will do brutal and inhuman things.

I can thoroughly recommend this book - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ten-Dead-Men-Hunger-Strike/dp/0586065334

If you want to get some insight into the mindset of the PIRA during its most destructive period. Written by an English journalist who covered NI.

[lord bunberry]

It's a very good question. If you brutalise and dehumanise people enough then they will do brutal and inhuman things.

I can thoroughly recommend this book - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ten-Dead-Men-Hunger-Strike/dp/0586065334

If you want to get some insight into the mindset of the PIRA during its most destructive period. Written by an English journalist who covered NI.
I often try and put myself in the position of others when I read or watch events. I think any sane person right away looks at the events and immediately thinks how could they do that or why would they think that’s the right course of action. It’s not until you see the reality of what happened that you begin to realise the events that led to bombing campaigns. I still can’t condone the killing of innocent people and I never will be able to see it as justified, but that programme last night was a real eye opener.
Ive ordered that book from Amazon.