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Seveno
04-09-2018, 12:33 PM
I am fed up reading this types of remark about our players. Do some people really want to accept second best?

We should be looking for every player to be the best that they can be and want to represent their country. If they get to a high level, we accept that they will want to move on but that will mean that they will have spend a season or two helping the club to press for honours and hopefully bring in lucrative transfer fees.

Hibstash
04-09-2018, 12:40 PM
Agree.

I read comments such as "if he had an end product he wouldn't be at hibs".

What a load of tosh. Is it too much to ask such as simple passes, hitting the target etc.

Personally I'd vet every player and wouldn't sign anyone that couldn't take a corner with both feet (but then I'd probably never have a team).

I'm just judging on my own abilities as a player I suppose [emoji6][emoji16]

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IGRIGI
04-09-2018, 12:47 PM
I'm glad someone started this up, it's one of my pet peeves too.

Latest one is Boyle, we should sit back and accept him ballooning it over the bar at every opportunity because if he actually starts putting it in the back of the net he's off.

1 season of 20 goals or 3 seasons of him replicating Chris Paterson? Moronic to prefer the latter option.

My_Wife_Camille
04-09-2018, 01:00 PM
Took the words out of my mouth. Glad to see I’m not alone on this one

Keith_M
04-09-2018, 01:14 PM
:agree:


That really grates with me as well.

How many times have we seen really good goal-scoring opportunities missed in the last few weeks? I think the agreement should be that anybody missing those chances on a regular basis should be practising their shooting skills more often... not that we should accept it because we're just poor wee Hibs.

worcesterhibby
04-09-2018, 01:18 PM
I'm glad someone started this up, it's one of my pet peeves too.

Latest one is Boyle, we should sit back and accept him ballooning it over the bar at every opportunity because if he actually starts putting it in the back of the net he's off.

1 season of 20 goals or 3 seasons of him replicating Chris Paterson? Moronic to prefer the latter option.

To be fair I don't think anyone on the Boyle thread was saying that we don't want Squirrel to start hitting the target more often, they were just accepting that if he did improve his scoring rate and assist rate by a decent amount he would suddenly become very much sought after and might not stay at Hibs for much longer.

IT IS difficult for Hibs to sign players who are the finished article - Experienced, two footed, high workrate, high passing accuracy, good shot/goal ratio, high number of assists and able to tackle. Because every club wants players with those attributes and there are a lot of clubs around the world that can afford to pay higher wages and transfer fees. Therefore we often have to sign young players who still have room for improvement and might attain the high levels we want (John McGinn for example), or else we buy effective but limited players and play to their strengths (Marvin Bartley being a good example). So yes in many ways it is naive and a bit pointless to expect every hibs signing to be "the finished article" but that doesn't mean that we don't want them to improve and attain a level where they have developed to a stage where we will struggle to keep hold of them.

Michael
04-09-2018, 01:20 PM
It doesn't make sense anyway. Hibs are one of the biggest clubs in the league and we should expect players to be able to perform to a good level in this division.

Borderhibbie76
04-09-2018, 01:22 PM
I'm glad someone started this up, it's one of my pet peeves too.

Latest one is Boyle, we should sit back and accept him ballooning it over the bar at every opportunity because if he actually starts putting it in the back of the net he's off.

1 season of 20 goals or 3 seasons of him replicating Chris Paterson? Moronic to prefer the latter option.Bang on...and it's often used about Boyle who gets an easy ride of some fans...his finishing and sometimes his crossing are beyond poor a lot of the time...he ought to be putting in a lot more work on the training ground. Some were suggesting him for a Scotland call up too..which is just never gonna happen I'm afraid. Look at the difference in Horgans end product compared to Boyles??

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Smartie
04-09-2018, 01:25 PM
Yep, I agree.

Mostly in relation to Efe Ambrose tbh. There is no doubting Efe's quality - you don't get the number of caps he's got for Nigeria unless you're a top player. You don't get a move to Celtic and play in the Champions League if you're not a top player.

He lost his way a bit, which is why he's at Hibs. Why should we accept the type of mistake that put his career into (relative) decline? Efe should be focussing on basic defending, still coming away with a bit of magic and he may yet get a move to a big club, he's certainly good enough.

We're not doing players a favour by accepting second best from them. We should want more.

Jim Leighton was the ultimate. Did we accept the type of blunder he'd become known for at Man Utd and Dundee? More to the point, did he? No, and he went on to finish his career in some style, as he was a top player who had to focus a bit, cut out the mistakes and he'd be back where he used to be - Scotland's number one.

Good thread.

AgentDaleCooper
04-09-2018, 01:29 PM
I think it makes sense with ambrose - his form last season was just gammy enough for jhim not to attract big offers that would have taken him away from us. At the same time, he put in some majestic performances. His form this season, however, has not been good enough for a club of hibs stature.

Boyle is a different animal - he is here to progress. He's always been raw, and has needed to improve his composure in one-on-ones. If clubs start looking at him, it'll be a sign that he is getting better. If he doesn't improve and ends up stagnating, he'll be off to ross county or something in a few years.

lord bunberry
04-09-2018, 02:39 PM
I hate it as well. Surely it would be better to say that, if he can add whatever skill to his game he’d be worth a lot of money. We can’t afford to buy the finished article in most cases do we need to bring in players we can improve.

The_Horde
04-09-2018, 02:40 PM
If they're good..

They won't be with us for longer than 3 years. Is probably more true.

green day
04-09-2018, 02:47 PM
Dont disagree with the OP, have said similar about Boyler.

............however with his pace and 20 goals a season, he wouldnt be at Easter Road

Above is what I posted on the "Squirrel" thread, and I guess what started this one off?

I am not saying we shouldnt bother trying to improve him, or that he shouldnt do it himself.

TBH I would love it if he did what Deeks did - staying behind after training to do shooting drills.

But I stand by my comment that with his pace, ability to get past a player - add loadsa goals and he would be offski (for a lot of cash).

Smartie
04-09-2018, 02:51 PM
If they're good..

They won't be with us for longer than 3 years. Is probably more true.

I think that's fair - and for both players and managers that should be what we're aiming for. We should celebrate it, rather than being put off by it, being confident that we'll improve the next imperfect young player who comes in.

It's certainly better than any time a contract has to end "by mutual consent" which is generally what happens when it hasn't worked out.

The_Horde
04-09-2018, 02:56 PM
Above is what I posted on the "Squirrel" thread, and I guess what started this one off?

I am not saying we shouldnt bother trying to improve him, or that he shouldnt do it himself.

TBH I would love it if he did what Deeks did - staying behind after training to do shooting drills.

But I stand by my comment that with his pace, ability to get past a player - add loadsa goals and he would be offski (for a lot of cash).

I personally think Boyle has been our best player so far this season. I think I saw something the other day that he creates around 2 clear cut chances a game, which was more than any other attacker in the league at that point before the Livingston game.

Stevenson or Allan put in the one he laid on a plate in against Livi and nobodies saying anything. He's an absolute handful for all defences and a player I want here for years to come.

lyonhibs
04-09-2018, 03:23 PM
I don't think anyone is saying we need to meekly accept repeated basic errors, more rather that players in the SPL full stop will either a) not be the finished article because b) if and when they do become, or get close to becoming, the finished article, they'll be offski - see SJM or c) if they are the finished article and top, top quality players, they're not playing in the SPL anyway.

It might be more accurate to say, of Boyle for example, that if he had laser accurate finishing and Jedi composure to go with his other attributes he'd never have come to Hibs in the first place. If he adds them to his repertoire consistently he'll be off for a decent wedge

That's not to say that he and others in the team couldn't do with, and I'm sure do in fact work on some basic skills that need improving through training drills, day in and day out.

danhibees1875
04-09-2018, 03:57 PM
I don't think anyone is saying we need to meekly accept repeated basic errors, more rather that players in the SPL full stop will either a) not be the finished article because b) if and when they do become, or get close to becoming, the finished article, they'll be offski - see SJM or c) if they are the finished article and top, top quality players, they're not playing in the SPL anyway.

It might be more accurate to say, of Boyle for example, that if he had laser accurate finishing and Jedi composure to go with his other attributes he'd never have come to Hibs in the first place. If he adds them to his repertoire consistently he'll be off for a decent wedge

That's not to say that he and others in the team couldn't do with, and I'm sure do in fact work on some basic skills that need improving through training drills, day in and day out.

Exactly this. :agree:

eastcoasthibby
04-09-2018, 03:59 PM
Is doing really well and having an influence or playing a positive part in games you play in, not the whole point of playing at all ? If yes .. so the next part is, do you not practise the key parts of your game that help make a positive impact ?....so does a player like Boyle actually stay back and practise his crossing and finishing, after they have done the group session, so that he can improve ..score more goals instead of looking and feeling like an arse and getting pelters from the fans or do you shoot off home at 1-1.30 to relax !
I have said the same about Lewis Stevenson numerous times, gets into great positions but his quality ball ratio isn't good enough and I know the same can be said for a number of players, I suppose what I am asking is why players aren't made to spend time developing the weaker parts of their games .......

Bangkok Hibby
04-09-2018, 04:17 PM
Above is what I posted on the "Squirrel" thread, and I guess what started this one off?

I am not saying we shouldnt bother trying to improve him, or that he shouldnt do it himself.

TBH I would love it if he did what Deeks did - staying behind after training to do shooting drills.

But I stand by my comment that with his pace, ability to get past a player - add loadsa goals and he would be offski (for a lot of cash).

We've always lost good players because we can't compete wages-wise. So accepting that, we should demand a level of expertise in every game which will keep us competitive whilst players are at our club. If that means extra training, shooting practise, motivational training, whatever, so be it.

FitbaFolkKen
04-09-2018, 04:25 PM
Players like Boyle always have the potential to frustrate because they have the ability to make things happen with raw pace. Raheem Sterling is similar, clearly another level ability wise from Boyle, but he causes problems with his pace, gets in positions and then duffs a cross or misses a chance. Thing is they both just get back up and try it again.

Managers like that type of player as it sets the opposition on edge, so despite a lacking end product sometimes it makes the opposition defence appear fragile and play more cautiously.


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Mikey_1875
04-09-2018, 06:26 PM
I don't think anyone is saying we need to meekly accept repeated basic errors, more rather that players in the SPL full stop will either a) not be the finished article because b) if and when they do become, or get close to becoming, the finished article, they'll be offski - see SJM or c) if they are the finished article and top, top quality players, they're not playing in the SPL anyway.

It might be more accurate to say, of Boyle for example, that if he had laser accurate finishing and Jedi composure to go with his other attributes he'd never have come to Hibs in the first place. If he adds them to his repertoire consistently he'll be off for a decent wedge

That's not to say that he and others in the team couldn't do with, and I'm sure do in fact work on some basic skills that need improving through training drills, day in and day out.

Spot on.

Nobody is wanting the players to stagnate while they are here in fear that they might go elsewhere. Id love for Boyle to pick a consistent cross out and score 20 a season and only see him for one season. But on the other hand i'm not going to berate him when he does blast it over a few times in a row because he is extremely exciting to watch and when it does all come together then he is unplayable!

Smartie
04-09-2018, 06:38 PM
The reason it's frustrating with Boyle is because it isn't unrealistic.

He HAS improved his end product massively, and he is a far more polished player than he was a year ago let alone 3 years ago.

When he first arrived he had that raw burst of pace, but some of the time even he didn't know what he was doing.

If he can improve to this point, he can improve further, and to be honest I think he will.

His pace gets him into brilliant positions but he'll know himself that he needs to improve his finishing a bit, and it isn't something that he isn't capable of doing.

Lago
04-09-2018, 06:47 PM
It doesn't make sense anyway. Hibs are one of the biggest clubs in the league and we should expect players to be able to perform to a good level in this division.
Correct!!!

majorhibs
04-09-2018, 07:46 PM
I think it makes sense with ambrose - his form last season was just gammy enough for jhim not to attract big offers that would have taken him away from us. At the same time, he put in some majestic performances. His form this season, however, has not been good enough for a club of hibs stature.

Boyle is a different animal - he is here to progress. He's always been raw, and has needed to improve his composure in one-on-ones. If clubs start looking at him, it'll be a sign that he is getting better. If he doesn't improve and ends up stagnating, he'll be off to ross county or something in a few years.

personally think Boyle has been our best player so far this season. I think I saw something the other day that he creates around 2 clear cut chances a game, which was more than any other attacker in the league at that point before the Livingston game. (other poster)

Stevenson or Allan put in the one he laid on a plate in against Livi and nobodies saying anything. He's an absolute handful for all defences and a player I want here for years to come. (other poster)

Come on! Hard to take seriously all this Boyle maybe future possibly etc, what’s his goals/assists ratio this season? Then gien it tight to a player like Ambrose, way above normal SPFL quality, because of a couple mistakes, 11 jerseys need 11 contributors & although I like Boyle his contribution is NOWHERE near enough,

HibbiesandtheBaddies
04-09-2018, 08:10 PM
To be fair I don't think anyone on the Boyle thread was saying that we don't want Squirrel to start hitting the target more often, they were just accepting that if he did improve his scoring rate and assist rate by a decent amount he would suddenly become very much sought after and might not stay at Hibs for much longer.

IT IS difficult for Hibs to sign players who are the finished article - Experienced, two footed, high workrate, high passing accuracy, good shot/goal ratio, high number of assists and able to tackle. Because every club wants players with those attributes and there are a lot of clubs around the world that can afford to pay higher wages and transfer fees. Therefore we often have to sign young players who still have room for improvement and might attain the high levels we want (John McGinn for example), or else we buy effective but limited players and play to their strengths (Marvin Bartley being a good example). So yes in many ways it is naive and a bit pointless to expect every hibs signing to be "the finished article" but that doesn't mean that we don't want them to improve and attain a level where they have developed to a stage where we will struggle to keep hold of them.

Beautifully articulated.

BILLYHIBS
05-09-2018, 08:10 AM
I read somewhere just after he left that SJM was too good for HIBS.

This made my blood boil!

Yes he is a good player and we undoubtedly miss him even now but at the end of the day we have had better players than SJM in the past and will in the future.

We will unearth and nurture the next John McGinn or another nugget who has different attributes but just as good he may be here already at the club who knows?

There is no one player bigger or better than our great club.

We the fans are still here the club is still here the stadium is still here.

There will be new heroes.

Who knows Milligan might be the new Sauzee.

He could be anything.

Unfortunately we are a selling club.

It is the nature of the beast. As a Hibby you get used to it. We just have to enjoy and make the most of any rising talent while they are still here.

The HIBS go marching on!