Common Ground on .Net Financial Literacy

[Speedway]

I’ve read lots of .net in the last 24 hours and I’ve read repeated mantras and ‘facts’ that have led me to wonder if certain things are widely understood.

In all seriousness, Is it generally accepted that:

1. Money in isn’t the same as money available to spend?

2. None of us know how much money we have/haven’t got?

3. It COSTS us to release players by paying a percentage of their remaining contract before we were due to, giving us LESS not more to spend?

4. We’ve spent big in transfer fees this summer?

5. Biggest ever football department budget is not the same as playing budget?

6. Historical losses need paying for in following years?

7. The Yams have got fan contributions that dwarf ours if published figures are to be believed.

We just seem to repeat ST numbers and the McGinn transfer as the justification for being loaded but we’re not loaded and I don’t understand why some of us think we are.

Why is that?

[Danderhall Hibs]

What a great question. Look forward to reading the replies.

[Alan62]

Aw man, don’t go trying to be sensible. Remember, we missed out on Leigh Griffiths because Petrie wouldn’t stump up a measly hundred grand. That’s what a Hibs.net FACT looks like not one of the above actual facts which only spoil the fun.


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[we are hibs]

You can't say you don't know how much money we have then go on to say we have spent big this summer. No one knows how much mallan, Horgan cost

[linlithgowhibbie]

You can't say you don't know how much money we have then go on to say we have spent big this summer. No one knows how much mallan, Horgan cost


I bet Rod and Leanne do.:thumbsup:

[SquashedFrogg]

You can't say you don't know how much money we have then go on to say we have spent big this summer. No one knows how much mallan, Horgan cost

But I think it's a fair assumption that we've signed players we wouldn't have been able to afford previously.

[The Leith Dutch]

You can't say you don't know how much money we have then go on to say we have spent big this summer. No one knows how much mallan, Horgan cost

I get the point you're making but possibly just phrasing - there is fairly strong evidence to suggest we've paid transfer fees in the 6 figure range for three players in this window when recent history has been of not paying fees at all. By our standards that is spending big I feel.

[Speedway]

You can't say you don't know how much money we have then go on to say we have spent big this summer. No one knows how much mallan, Horgan cost

Would you like me to find out for you?

[hibbydad]

I have said before if you can get behind HSL it will help take the club to the next level. If the yams can do it surely we can

[MyJo]

I’ve read lots of .net in the last 24 hours and I’ve read repeated mantras and ‘facts’ that have led me to wonder if certain things are widely understood.

In all seriousness, Is it generally accepted that:

1. Money in isn’t the same as money available to spend?

2. None of us know how much money we have/haven’t got?

3. It COSTS us to release players by paying a percentage of their remaining contract before we were due to, giving us LESS not more to spend?

4. We’ve spent big in transfer fees this summer?

5. Biggest ever football department budget is not the same as playing budget?

6. Historical losses need paying for in following years?

7. The Yams have got fan contributions that dwarf ours if published figures are to be believed.

We just seem to repeat ST numbers and the McGinn transfer as the justification for being loaded but we’re not loaded and I don’t understand why some of us think we are.

Why is that?

8. Transfer fees aren’t paid as an fully upfront lump sum so we do not have £2m sitting in a bank account somewhere waiting to be spent after selling McGinn

[Daydreamer]

I have said before if you can get behind HSL it will help take the club to the next level. If the yams can do it surely we can


That is one of the main things that will take them over the next 5 years a step in front of us. There are six of us who go to nearly every game home and away and only one of these six contribute to HSL. I have said on many occasions that I will join but never get round to doing it. I believe now that some of their Foundation money has been diverted to their playing budget this season. When the Proclaimers done their HSL plea at the start of the season I believe the uptake was very disappointing. I will get round to contributing in the near future this time. . . This time.

[Speedway]

8. Transfer fees aren’t paid as an fully upfront lump sum so we do not have £2m sitting in a bank account somewhere waiting to be spent after selling McGinn

Sometimes they are and sometimes they’re not MyJo. Either way we don’t know but are basing our opinions as if those cleared funds are available to spend.

[hibbydad]

You are right Daydreamer surely we can't let them get so much ahead of us. I'm pretty certain they must have diverted money to the playing budget come on guys don't let the yams beat us at anything

[matty_f]

My question is why wouldn't the board use up the available money if they could?

It's in everyone's interests to get as good a team as we can on the pitch.

It makes no sense that if we had money, we wouldn't use it to improve the team (and I don't necessarily mean that it all goes on transfer fees or wages, it could go on improving what's already here, or retaining players).

[CB_NO3]

I think its 100% fact that we have 100% spent more cash on fees than any other club in Scotland minus the Old Firm.

[green day]

My question is why wouldn't the board use up the available money if they could?

It's in everyone's interests to get as good a team as we can on the pitch.

It makes no sense that if we had money, we wouldn't use it to improve the team (and I don't necessarily mean that it all goes on transfer fees or wages, it could go on improving what's already here, or retaining players).

I'm sure some fanny will be along shortly to tell us its a fact that all the SJM cash is being diverted to Tom Farmer 🤣🤣

[Daydreamer]

You are right Daydreamer surely we can't let them get so much ahead of us. I'm pretty certain they must have diverted money to the playing budget come on guys don't let the yams beat us at anything

Thanks hibbydad. The guy that contributes in our group has a S/O for £18.75 each month and he has said he can't understand why the rest of us can't contribute a tenner a month. It's a fair point for a paltry sum of £120 a year and don't forget now that Aberdeen have a scheme up and running with different benefits they are ahead of us at present and will pull even further in front over the next few years. If we could get even another four thousand doing a tenner a month we would see the benefits immediately. It's up to the individual what they do with their hard earned money but it could get to the point that Celtic, The rangers, Aberdeen and the knobs are the four teams in Europe every year and the days like Asteras and Brondby will be a distant memory.

[matty_f]

I think its 100% fact that we have 100% spent more cash on fees than any other club in Scotland minus the Old Firm.

Hard to say that as fact when all of our fees paid have been undisclosed (iirc).

Hearts have definitely spent a lot on signings this summer, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they've spent more than us.

[Speedway]

My question is why wouldn't the board use up the available money if they could?

It's in everyone's interests to get as good a team as we can on the pitch.

It makes no sense that if we had money, we wouldn't use it to improve the team (and I don't necessarily mean that it all goes on transfer fees or wages, it could go on improving what's already here, or retaining players).

The supposition there Matty is that we had money to spend when none of us know whether the board spent all available money.

However, we know we were trying to do deals on the last day, suggesting we had money and weren’t getting into debt by doing so.

So were the prices raised on us. Did NL decide not to spend as he did in Jan when the board offered him funds for an extra player?

We don’t know the answers and I suggest that these are either questions for the AGM or for LD via a different forum such as a HibsTV interview.

[Peevemor]

My question is why wouldn't the board use up the available money if they could?

It's in everyone's interests to get as good a team as we can on the pitch.

It makes no sense that if we had money, we wouldn't use it to improve the team (and I don't necessarily mean that it all goes on transfer fees or wages, it could go on improving what's already here, or retaining players).I think we can assume that the players we've signed are on good money (for us). I think we can also assume that next summer we'll be looking at something similar. However, it's unlikely that we'll bring in the same amount in transfer fees (it's not a certainty in any case).

Does it not make sense therefore to spread the extra dosh we have just now over the budgets for the next 2-3 years?

[mayo hibee]

"3. It COSTS us to release players by paying a percentage of their remaining contract before we were due to, giving us LESS not more to spend?"



This one can be argued either way really. If Swanson was on say £2k per week we'd have had to pay him around £100,000 to see out his contract. If we paid him £50,000 yesterday to go away, although there's an upfront cost, there's also now an extra £50,000 available in the wage budget over the course of the year to spend on someone else. So, in that sense, it's a saving rather than a cost.

[Speedway]

"3. It COSTS us to release players by paying a percentage of their remaining contract before we were due to, giving us LESS not more to spend?"



This one can be argued either way really. If Swanson was on say £2k per week we'd have had to pay him around £100,000 to see out his contract. If we paid him £50,000 yesterday to go away, although there's an upfront cost, there's also now an extra £50,000 available in the wage budget over the course of the year to spend on someone else. So, in that sense, it's a saving rather than a cost.

Indeed it is hence why we do it, but it reduces our cash in hand required for transfer/signing on fees that are paid up front in a transfer window.

[Benjeloon]

If reported fees paid are even remotely in the ball park for what we've actually spent, then we have invested heavily in the playing squad this window.

Mallan
Estimated £100k - £200k transfer fee
Four year deal

Kamberi
Estimated £100k - £200k transfer fee
Three year deal

Horgan
Estimated £200k to £300k transfer fee
Three year deal

That's an estimated transfer fee spend of between £400k to £700k. Almost unheard of for Hibs to pay transfer fees at all, nevermind of that amount.

On top of this you have Maclaren and Milligan in on substantial wages, with the reported option to buy Maclaren for £400k next year.

Hibs have spent some serious money by our standards this summer on proven players with long term contracts in the current market.

I found it interesting at the end of last season when the team was performing well and we looked dead certs for Europe that Lennon said that the progression to success had happened sooner than they had expected. That we've invested heavily in our playing squad with what look like quality players suggests that this sort of spend during the transfer window could be the new norm for Hibs as we attempt to build and maintain the standard of the playing squad over a prolonged period of time.

For me, that is a far more attractive and exciting proposition than throwing buckets of cash at the playing squad in the hope of immediate success. If that success doesn't materialise our attendances will likely fall and we will then have to cut our costs in line with that which would likely coincide with a fall in quality in the playing squad and subsequently on our success and league position.

Over the last 20 years Hibs have been in the bottom 6 of the SPL/SPFL and in the Championship more often than we have been in the top six never mind the top three or four. If we can maintain a business model that supports continued investment in the playing squad we should hopefully see ourselves become mainstays at the top of the league, regulars in Europe as well as competing in the latter stages of domestic cups every season.

Sounds good to me, so I'm all for more of the same in terms of investment based on this window if that is indeed what we can expect going forward!

[Caversham Green]

I think we can assume that the players we've signed are on good money (for us). I think we can also assume that next summer we'll be looking at something similar. However, it's unlikely that we'll bring in the same amount in transfer fees (it's not a certainty in any case).

Does it not make sense therefore to spread the extra dosh we have just now over the budgets for the next 2-3 years?

On a similar tack, suppose we had a spare £4m from our dealings (it's unlikely to be anywhere near that much, but just supposin'). Paying off STF's loan would immediately free up half a million to the playing budget for each of the next eight years.

I suspect the payment would go down like a lead balloon though.

[lyonhibs]

As long as we've all agreed that Petrie is on the take and rerouting funds into his start-up "Magnificent Mowsers - Gentleman's Grooming Establishment" then everything else is of secondary importance......

[franck sauzee]

On a similar tack, suppose we had a spare £4m from our dealings (it's unlikely to be anywhere near that much, but just supposin'). Paying off STF's loan would immediately free up half a million to the playing budget for each of the next eight years.

I suspect the payment would go down like a lead balloon though.

It would indeed as the loan is interest free so better off to pay it each year like we are doing

[Caversham Green]

It would indeed as the loan is interest free so better off to pay it each year like we are doing

It's still a fair amount of cash going out of the club each year though.

[Peevemor]

On a similar tack, suppose we had a spare £4m from our dealings (it's unlikely to be anywhere near that much, but just supposin'). Paying off STF's loan would immediately free up half a million to the playing budget for each of the next eight years.

I suspect the payment would go down like a lead balloon though.It certainly would and, given the loan is interest free, it'd more sensible for Hibs to hold on to the cash in any case.

[Jones28]

I have said before if you can get behind HSL it will help take the club to the next level. If the yams can do it surely we can

The main difference being that Hearts fans signed up when they were literally at deaths door and would have gone bust if not for their fans contributions.

Couple that with the (at best) sporadic marketing efforts of HSL and I for one would be very surprised if we were able to get anywhere near their level of contributors.

[superfurryhibby]

The clubs annual accounts will speak volumes.

The transfers fees and wages for the players coming have no doubt been significant for a club of Hibs standing.

The idea we haVe a huge wedge sitting around is laughable. When you add the wages/ fees paid for Kamberi, McLaren, Milligan, Bogdan, Mallan, Horgan and Agyepong and then factor in the likelihood that Hanlo, Marciano and Ambrose will be on top money ( by our standards). You can see where the budget has gone.

Factor in diverting 500,000k to STf for the loan and it can’t be hard to work out that we have invested heavilly in the team.

We have some excellent players at our club, guys with real flair and attacking menace. Even our key defenders are good at going forward. We’re built to entertain and the manager has shown his commitment to playing expansive football. Bloddy shame we lost Mc Ginn and Mc Geouch, but the Sheep have shown that you can lose key players and carry on building a strong side. I trust Lennon can maanage to sustain and keep the momentum going.

Time to sit back and enjoy the season, we’re off to a decent start and have quality yet to appear in the side.

[CropleyWasGod]

The clubs annual accounts will speak volumes.

The transfers fees and wages for the players coming have no doubt been significant for a club of Hibs standing.

The idea we haVe a huge wedge sitting around is laughable. When you add the wages/ fees paid for Kamberi, McLaren, Milligan, Bogdan, Mallan, Horgan and Agyepong and then factor in the likelihood that Hanlo, Marciano and Ambrose will be on top money ( by our standards). You can see where the budget has gone.

Factor in diverting 500,000k to STf for the loan and it can’t be hard to work out that we have invested heavilly in the team.

We have some excellent players at our club, guys with real flair and attacking menace. Even our key defenders are good at going forward. We’re built to entertain and the manager has shown his commitment to playing expansive football. Bloddy shame we lost Mc Ginn and Mc Geouch, but the Sheep have shown that you can lose key players and carry on building a strong side. I trust Lennon can maanage to sustain and keep the momentum going.

Time to sit back and enjoy the season, we’re off to a decent start and have quality yet to appear in the side.The next accounts won't help the debate all that much. They will be for the season just ended. Most of the increased income, and the related expenditure, happened in the current season.

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[jonty]

"3. It COSTS us to release players by paying a percentage of their remaining contract before we were due to, giving us LESS not more to spend?"



This one can be argued either way really. If Swanson was on say £2k per week we'd have had to pay him around £100,000 to see out his contract. If we paid him £50,000 yesterday to go away, although there's an upfront cost, there's also now an extra £50,000 available in the wage budget over the course of the year to spend on someone else. So, in that sense, it's a saving rather than a cost.


Indeed it is hence why we do it, but it reduces our cash in hand required for transfer/signing on fees that are paid up front in a transfer window.
So, the ‘savings’ won’t be realised until half way through the season. In the meantime, we’re down a player and a pile of cash. It shows why clubs can let players run down contracts and leave for nought

[Greenworld]

We are most likely the 5th club in Scotland in financial terms and I think we will finish 5th or 4th at best this season

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[Bob Box Fish]

Would be interesting to know what the current break even figure for projected attendances is. During the Bobby Williamson era there was the stand up and be counted campaign where the club rang supporters directly to encourage them back. The target then was 12,000 which we were 50% above last season. Also with the inflated gates comes increased sales through the club shop.

On a side note Lennon said in a interview earlier in the summer we received part of the Cummings fee this summer which may have also boosted his budget.

[Mibbes Aye]

I think we can assume that the players we've signed are on good money (for us). I think we can also assume that next summer we'll be looking at something similar. However, it's unlikely that we'll bring in the same amount in transfer fees (it's not a certainty in any case).

Does it not make sense therefore to spread the extra dosh we have just now over the budgets for the next 2-3 years?

Agree with this.

I've also no issue if we've parked the buy-out money for Jamie Maclaren. If he performs like he did on loan last season then he's a snip and we don't need to find the money. If not, we've got nearly half a million in the kitty.

[Speedway]

All we need is for the board to explain why we didn’t buy on the final day when the manager wanted us to.

[Hibernian Verse]

All we need is for the board to explain why we didn’t buy on the final day when the manager wanted us to.Why should they. I don't discuss my business decisions with my customers?

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[Speedway]

Why should they. I don't discuss my business decisions with my customers?

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Because some of us are shareholders and you don’t piss off the customers whether they’re shareholders or not.

[Caversham Green]

All we need is for the board to explain why we didn’t buy on the final day when the manager wanted us to.

I would expect mention to be made at the AGM, but they probably can't be specific re Scott Allan as that would mean discussing the affairs of a club and player that have no current connection to Hibs. And we may want to do business with both in January.

[Mibbes Aye]

Because some of us are shareholders and you don’t piss off the customers whether they’re shareholders or not.

There is a bit about the crazy expectations fans have though, that seem to be magnified and concentrated in settings like this.

I, once again, will cite Derek Riordan's return from Celtc.

There were several days of increasingly mad posting in the run-up to the window being shut. Riordan will add two or three thousand onto attendances. Pay what Celtc are asking, we will recoup it from the added sales etc etc.

In the end we got Riordan. We didn't sell an extra two or three thousand STs. He did alright but not great. And IIRC, Hibs stood their ground and paid no more for him than Celtc did when they got him from us, despite them pitching him at three times the price we paid, which actually made me a bit proud of how we go about our business.

[NAE NOOKIE]

As the thread title says.

After months of humming and hawing I've taken the plunge at £10 per month. Funnily enough the final push was watching the Hertz having a good start to the season …. I for one cant ignore the fact that a club who should be a financial basket case and have barely made a penny from domestic cup runs or Europe in the last 5 years and are spending over 10 million quid on ground redevelopments have remained competitive throughout it all.

Can there be any doubt left that if they finally pay for that stand and the FOH donations continue as they are past that we will be at a serious disadvantage to them financially …. I have lived in hope ( as all fans do ) that one day a white knight insanely wealthy benefactor would ride over the horizon to make us into Scotland's Man City. But the truth is that's a million to one shot and if we aren't to be left behind its up to the fans to contribute to the club we love in every way we possibly can.

So if you can be like me and take the plunge …. The smug feeling it gives you knowing you are far better than most of our other fans is reward enough, and don't worry if you have to cut the kids food budget to make the payments, you are contributing to the fight against Scotland's obesity crisis … its a win, win.


GGTTH :greengrin

:flag:

[Hibbyradge]

As the thread title says.

After months of humming and hawing I've taken the plunge at £10 per month. Funnily enough the final push was watching the Hertz having a good start to the season …. I for one cant ignore the fact that a club who should be a financial basket case and have barely made a penny from domestic cup runs or Europe in the last 5 years and are spending over 10 million quid on ground redevelopments have remained competitive throughout it all.

Can there be any doubt left that if they finally pay for that stand and the FOH donations continue as they are past that we will be at a serious disadvantage to them financially …. I have lived in hope ( as all fans do ) that one day a white knight insanely wealthy benefactor would ride over the horizon to make us into Scotland's Man City. But the truth is that's a million to one shot and if we aren't to be left behind its up to the fans to contribute to the club we love in every way we possibly can.

So if you can be like me and take the plunge …. The smug feeling it gives you knowing you are far better than most of our other fans is reward enough, and don't worry if you have to cut the kids food budget to make the payments, you are contributing to the fight against Scotland's obesity crisis … its a win, win.


GGTTH :greengrin

:flag:
You're not better than all the other fans, though.

I've been paying £18.75 for nearly 3 years.

'Kin smug. :smug:

[Mibbes Aye]

As the thread title says.

After months of humming and hawing I've taken the plunge at £10 per month. Funnily enough the final push was watching the Hertz having a good start to the season …. I for one cant ignore the fact that a club who should be a financial basket case and have barely made a penny from domestic cup runs or Europe in the last 5 years and are spending over 10 million quid on ground redevelopments have remained competitive throughout it all.

Can there be any doubt left that if they finally pay for that stand and the FOH donations continue as they are past that we will be at a serious disadvantage to them financially …. I have lived in hope ( as all fans do ) that one day a white knight insanely wealthy benefactor would ride over the horizon to make us into Scotland's Man City. But the truth is that's a million to one shot and if we aren't to be left behind its up to the fans to contribute to the club we love in every way we possibly can.

So if you can be like me and take the plunge …. The smug feeling it gives you knowing you are far better than most of our other fans is reward enough, and don't worry if you have to cut the kids food budget to make the payments, you are contributing to the fight against Scotland's obesity crisis … its a win, win.


GGTTH :greengrin

:flag:

Good post and I would strongly agree that if you are able to stick a few extra quid into Hibs then do so.

Only thing I disagree with is the 'white knight' with unlimited funds to put at our disposal. I'm quite proud that our club does what it does within its means. It's honest.

STF has provided a safety net but we need to move beyond that and we have. That's something we should celebrate.

[FRes Hibbie]

8. Transfer fees aren’t paid as an fully upfront lump sum so we do not have £2m sitting in a bank account somewhere waiting to be spent after selling McGinn

If that's not the way transfers work how do we have £2m sitting there?

[Hibbyradge]

If that's not the way transfers work how do we have £2m sitting there?

He said we don't have £2m sitting there

[Lago]

So what is it that makes FoH so much more attractive than HSL to each set of fans & from what I read here why will Aberdeen's scheme also out perform hibs ?

[OfficialHSL]

So what is it that makes FoH so much more attractive than HSL to each set of fans & from what I read here why will Aberdeen's scheme also out perform hibs ?

Lago

That really is the $64,000 question.

From a demographics point of view there isn't a material difference that can explain this. Certainly Hearts came from a different starting point but once their Club was saved why have they carried on and grown ?

We suspect that it is much clearer to their supporters that if they have ambition for their Club then it is only they themselves that will fund that ambition, there isn't anyone else going to do it for them.

While HSL continues to grow we still have many 000's of supporters who have not joined. We suspect that the biggest reason for this is apathy, everyone thinks everything is just fine and there is no need to help. To a certain extent this is true, however if our two biggest rivals are really getting the bit between their teeth and their supporters are choosing to donate additional funds to help the team we need to be mindful of this when considering our future. If things continue as they are both Aberdeen and Hearts will have millions more to coming from fans to spend on players. We the supporters can choose how we wish to respond.


HSL

[Speedway]

Lago

That really is the $64,000 question.

From a demographics point of view there isn't a material difference that can explain this. Certainly Hearts came from a different starting point but once their Club was saved why have they carried on and grown ?

We suspect that it is much clearer to their supporters that if they have ambition for their Club then it is only they themselves that will fund that ambition, there isn't anyone else going to do it for them.

While HSL continues to grow we still have many 000's of supporters who have not joined. We suspect that the biggest reason for this is apathy, everyone thinks everything is just fine and there is no need to help. To a certain extent this is true, however if our two biggest rivals are really getting the bit between their teeth and their supporters are choosing to donate additional funds to help the team we need to be mindful of this when considering our future. If things continue as they are both Aberdeen and Hearts will have millions more to coming from fans to spend on players. We the supporters can choose how we wish to respond.


HSL

Could that post be a sticky in its own right perhaps?

[Speedway]

Lago

That really is the $64,000 question.

From a demographics point of view there isn't a material difference that can explain this. Certainly Hearts came from a different starting point but once their Club was saved why have they carried on and grown ?

We suspect that it is much clearer to their supporters that if they have ambition for their Club then it is only they themselves that will fund that ambition, there isn't anyone else going to do it for them.

While HSL continues to grow we still have many 000's of supporters who have not joined. We suspect that the biggest reason for this is apathy, everyone thinks everything is just fine and there is no need to help. To a certain extent this is true, however if our two biggest rivals are really getting the bit between their teeth and their supporters are choosing to donate additional funds to help the team we need to be mindful of this when considering our future. If things continue as they are both Aberdeen and Hearts will have millions more to coming from fans to spend on players. We the supporters can choose how we wish to respond.


HSL

HSL,

Roughly speaking, what are the respective monthly donations from the three schemes? (HSL, FoH and the Dons equivalent)

[ancient hibee]

It may be worth remembering that sometime soon for one or maybe two seasons the FOH donations will go to MsBudge.

[Speedway]

It may be worth remembering that sometime soon for one or maybe two seasons the FOH donations will go to MsBudge.

It is worth remembering that and gives us another reason to steal a march.

[Lago]

Lago

That really is the $64,000 question.

From a demographics point of view there isn't a material difference that can explain this. Certainly Hearts came from a different starting point but once their Club was saved why have they carried on and grown ?

We suspect that it is much clearer to their supporters that if they have ambition for their Club then it is only they themselves that will fund that ambition, there isn't anyone else going to do it for them.

While HSL continues to grow we still have many 000's of supporters who have not joined. We suspect that the biggest reason for this is apathy, everyone thinks everything is just fine and there is no need to help. To a certain extent this is true, however if our two biggest rivals are really getting the bit between their teeth and their supporters are choosing to donate additional funds to help the team we need to be mindful of this when considering our future. If things continue as they are both Aberdeen and Hearts will have millions more to coming from fans to spend on players. We the supporters can choose how we wish to respond.


HSL
Many thanks for your response, appreciated.

[Forza Fred]

HSL was launched at a time when there was serious infighting about the ‘real’ purpose of the scheme, and many people simply turned off.

Despite their best efforts, I don’t think HSL have won over the hearts and minds of many supporters and while I DO applaud their efforts, I think a relaunch under a different name, with the simple unambiguous guarantee of where the money will be spent, so that even the most ‘non,nod,wink,wink’ detractors, cannot ‘spin’ the purpose of the scheme, for mischevious, doubt causing purposes..needs to be done

Phew!

[Baw187]

I’ve read lots of .net in the last 24 hours and I’ve read repeated mantras and ‘facts’ that have led me to wonder if certain things are widely understood.

In all seriousness, Is it generally accepted that:

1. Money in isn’t the same as money available to spend?

2. None of us know how much money we have/haven’t got?

3. It COSTS us to release players by paying a percentage of their remaining contract before we were due to, giving us LESS not more to spend?

4. We’ve spent big in transfer fees this summer?

5. Biggest ever football department budget is not the same as playing budget?

6. Historical losses need paying for in following years?

7. The Yams have got fan contributions that dwarf ours if published figures are to be believed.

We just seem to repeat ST numbers and the McGinn transfer as the justification for being loaded but we’re not loaded and I don’t understand why some of us think we are.

Why is that?

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I haven’t read beyond the OP yet but add to this,

Nobody knows why we didn’t get our intended targets on TDD. Could have been a variety of factors other than the board ‘not backing the manager’, which is unlikely to have been the case in the context of our budget.

[FitbaFolkKen]

Lago

That really is the $64,000 question.

From a demographics point of view there isn't a material difference that can explain this. Certainly Hearts came from a different starting point but once their Club was saved why have they carried on and grown ?

We suspect that it is much clearer to their supporters that if they have ambition for their Club then it is only they themselves that will fund that ambition, there isn't anyone else going to do it for them.

While HSL continues to grow we still have many 000's of supporters who have not joined. We suspect that the biggest reason for this is apathy, everyone thinks everything is just fine and there is no need to help. To a certain extent this is true, however if our two biggest rivals are really getting the bit between their teeth and their supporters are choosing to donate additional funds to help the team we need to be mindful of this when considering our future. If things continue as they are both Aberdeen and Hearts will have millions more to coming from fans to spend on players. We the supporters can choose how we wish to respond.


HSL

It might be the case that we need to look at a more commercial model.

I run my own company and would be happy to offer discounts/gift vouchers to HSL members. I’m sure there are other companies that would do the same. You tend to find that in some cases you have to pay to be part of an employers benefits scheme so I expect uptake for a free scheme would be high.

We don’t have the impetus of our club going under to drive the membership but if there is a reward in addition to the shares and the improvement to the club that might help. It’s already a big ask with season tickets and merchandise for our fan base so maybe we need to give something back to those that go the extra mile?


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