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Hibbyradge
29-06-2018, 10:29 AM
The slow wheels of justice...

Hillsborough police commander David Duckenfield to face manslaughter trial

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jun/29/hillsborough-police-commander-david-duckenfield-to-face-manslaughter-trial?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

hibsbollah
29-06-2018, 10:40 AM
The slow wheels of justice...

Hillsborough police commander David Duckenfield to face manslaughter trial

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jun/29/hillsborough-police-commander-david-duckenfield-to-face-manslaughter-trial?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

The evidence to put this man on trial has been around since 1995. Which is when I first read Phil Scrutons first report on the disaster when I was at uni.

Maybe twenty three years is the optimum time for justice to be applied to those in positions of power? Maybe in another ten years we'll start to see convictions in say, the knowing collusion of the police, the BBC, the Home Office et al in burying evidence in the Jimmy Saville case?

But in the meantime we'll be told that evidence that challenges official accounts are always 'conspiracy theories':rolleyes:

Scouse Hibee
29-06-2018, 12:06 PM
Is there to be no end to this, yet another drawn out saga to follow for all affected to endure.

ronaldo7
29-06-2018, 12:10 PM
Is there to be no end to this, yet another drawn out saga to follow for all affected to endure.

Not sure I'd agree with how you've put it Scouse. I'd have thought the opportunity to hold duckenfield to account would be something the families would be delighted with.

Centre Hawf
29-06-2018, 12:11 PM
Is there to be no end to this, yet another drawn out saga to follow for all affected to endure.

I obviously cant speak for families etc as its never personally effected me. But I would assume justice is the main aim?

Scouse Hibee
29-06-2018, 12:13 PM
Not sure I'd agree with how you've put it Scouse. I'd have thought the opportunity to hold duckenfield to account would be something the families would be delighted with.

I'm sure they will too, I was referring to the lenghth of time it has taken and the agony of once again having to go through it all again to get justice.

ronaldo7
29-06-2018, 12:14 PM
I'm sure they will too, I was referring to the lenghth of time it has taken and the agony of once again having to go through it all again to get justice.

:aok:

Hopefully he'll feel the full force of the law when it arrives.

Scouse Hibee
29-06-2018, 12:15 PM
I obviously cant speak for families etc as its never personally effected me. But I would assume justice is the main aim?

Of course it is. It's the timescale that is agonising for the families and those affected. It will live with those affected and those who were there and witnessed it forever including me. Seeing it all again as we no doubt will throughout the trial makes those emotions raw again it really does.

Centre Hawf
29-06-2018, 12:22 PM
Of course it is. It's the timescale that is agonising for the families and those affected. It will live with those affected and those who were there and witnessed it forever including me. Seeing it all again as we no doubt will throughout the trial makes those emotions raw again it really does.

Fair point. It is a horrible ordeal to have to live through constantly.

JimBHibees
29-06-2018, 12:24 PM
The evidence to put this man on trial has been around since 1995. Which is when I first read Phil Scrutons first report on the disaster when I was at uni.

Maybe twenty three years is the optimum time for justice to be applied to those in positions of power? Maybe in another ten years we'll start to see convictions in say, the knowing collusion of the police, the BBC, the Home Office et al in burying evidence in the Jimmy Saville case?

But in the meantime we'll be told that evidence that challenges official accounts are always 'conspiracy theories':rolleyes:

Agree one of the most sinister cover ups ever with full complicity of a large number of politicians of differing governments, media and the authorities whose main role is to protect its citizens. Truly shameful.

Kato
29-06-2018, 12:29 PM
Agree one of the most sinister cover ups ever with full complicity of a large number of politicians of differing governments, media and the authorities whose main role is to protect its citizens. Truly shameful.

A bit early to say but it looks like history is about to repeat itself with Grenfel, with teh fire service to carry the can for that.

Viva_Palmeiras
29-06-2018, 12:45 PM
A bit early to say but it looks like history is about to repeat itself with Grenfel, with teh fire service to carry the can for that.

That’s the way justice works in this country once you get things wrapped up with officialdom.

Kato
29-06-2018, 01:00 PM
That’s the way justice works in this country once you get things wrapped up with officialdom.

Aye, not nit-picking but that ain't justice working, it's "the legal system" at work. Guilty people being protected via the establishment circling the wagons.

superfurryhibby
29-06-2018, 01:35 PM
Agree one of the most sinister cover ups ever with full complicity of a large number of politicians of differing governments, media and the authorities whose main role is to protect its citizens. Truly shameful.

Wait until the full extent and horror of the peadophile scandal at the heart of our establishment is finally uncovered. Sadly, many of those culpable will be gone (are already gone).

It seems fitting that those responsible for the decisions that led to the deaths of so many at Hillsborough are finally brought to justice. Disgusting that it has taken so long for a reckoning. Hopefully tried and they can argue their case in a courtroom.

jacomo
29-06-2018, 01:52 PM
A bit early to say but it looks like history is about to repeat itself with Grenfel, with teh fire service to carry the can for that.


:agree:

They will try to pin the blame on someone in the emergency services and ruin their lives too.

The people who made the decisions that led to the tragedy will try and get away with it.

Itsnoteasy
29-06-2018, 03:46 PM
Is there to be no end to this, yet another drawn out saga to follow for all affected to endure.

Can you ever draw a line under what happened?

andybev1
29-06-2018, 03:54 PM
A bit early to say but it looks like history is about to repeat itself with Grenfel, with teh fire service to carry the can for that.

And the Hep C cover up which has affected my family - the only ****s that do not seem to get jail *eventually (if we take it that duckenfield et all will go down) is the ******* politicians

andybev1
29-06-2018, 03:57 PM
:agree:

They will try to pin the blame on someone in the emergency services and ruin their lives too.

The people who made the decisions that led to the tragedy will try and get away with it.

I totally felt fir the head fireman who was made to feel as if it was his fault when he is a hero imo who did not have the facts to be able to act accordingly.

Mick O'Rourke
29-06-2018, 04:28 PM
:agree:

They will try to pin the blame on someone in the emergency services and ruin their lives too.

The people who made the decisions that led to the tragedy will try and get away with it.

The local authority/council made the decision to clad the building with the material,now said to be the main cause of the fire spreading so quickly.

They installed this cladding at the behest of the more affluent neighbours in the manor who felt the tower and its exterior was an "eyesore"

The "blame" lies with those councillors and contractors who installed the material,which it has since been revealed is banned for such use in most European countries and the USA.

Just Alf
29-06-2018, 04:37 PM
I totally felt fir the head fireman who was made to feel as if it was his fault when he is a hero imo who did not have the facts to be able to act accordingly.Me too.. even worse when I found out he was actually simply in charge of 2 fire engines... talk about being thrown under a bus by yer boss.

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hibsbollah
29-06-2018, 04:52 PM
This thread is going away from Hillsborough I know, but I remember when Jimmy Saville died, and nothing was in the media about his child rapery until the following year.

There was a RIP thread on here, and in the middle of it all Doddie (I'm not sure if he posts on here anymore) said his father told him stories that Saville tried to get kids into his sleeper cabin, when Doddies dad worked on the railways. I remember thinking that was a bit harsh on a rip thread since it was only a bit of hearsay. 6 months later and the truth about him is the biggest story on the news for weeks.

I keep thinking if someone like Doddies dad knew about Saville, and casually talked about it, how many hundreds of other people must have known what he was up to, which must have included countless people who would have the power to stop it. His connection with senior policemen, politicians and organised crime have been well documented. But no prosecutions for those who kept it quiet. Meanwhile hundreds maybe thousands of lives are damaged forever. Crazy.

Scouse Hibee
29-06-2018, 04:57 PM
Can you ever draw a line under what happened?

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Bostonhibby
29-06-2018, 05:29 PM
I'm sure they will too, I was referring to the lenghth of time it has taken and the agony of once again having to go through it all again to get justice.Yep, there's been a desire to keep the prosecution of the responsible authorities hidden in the long grass for as long as possible. They've a story to tell. Be interesting to see if Duckenfield ever stands trial and if he's got anything to say in an attempt to save his skin or deflect the blame up the line?

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Bostonhibby
29-06-2018, 05:34 PM
The local authority/council made the decision to clad the building with the material,now said to be the main cause of the fire spreading so quickly.

They installed this cladding at the behest of the more affluent neighbours in the manor who felt the tower and its exterior was an "eyesore"

The "blame" lies with those councillors and contractors who installed the material,which it has since been revealed is banned for such use in most European countries and the USA.Absolutely. The fire brigade were working with the tools they were given and the risks the council and their chums the contractors knowingly took. There's a lot of politicking and covering up going on behind the scenes as the scramble to deflect liability and accountability. Blaming the fire brigade is picking on an easy target, the wrong target......

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WhileTheChief..
29-06-2018, 05:37 PM
I don’t get how that tragedy can be pinned on one person?

I wonder how many of the thousands of fans who were pushing to get in take responsibility for their actions that day?

Time to put it to bed.

superfurryhibby
29-06-2018, 06:09 PM
I don’t get how that tragedy can be pinned on one person?

I wonder how many of the thousands of fans who were pushing to get in take responsibility for their actions that day?

Time to put it to bed.

You should put yourself to bed ya daft attention seeking ****stain.

CentreLine
29-06-2018, 06:29 PM
It is a bit concerning that Duckenfield has been tried, convicted and all but executed by the press and social media. You have to ask where the jurors are going to come from that can demonstrate that they have no preconceived view of guilt.
Not defending what happened by any means but sometimes the campaign for justice, however justified, might just prejudice any trial

tamig
29-06-2018, 06:34 PM
I don’t get how that tragedy can be pinned on one person?

I wonder how many of the thousands of fans who were pushing to get in take responsibility for their actions that day?

Time to put it to bed.
Because he was the guy who had access to the CCTV feeds and could see what was happening. He did nothing to close off the central pens and redirect folk to the emptier side ones. A gross dereliction of duty imo.

Peevemor
29-06-2018, 06:44 PM
Because he was the guy who had access to the CCTV feeds and could see what was happening. He did nothing to close off the central pens and redirect folk to the emptier side ones. A gross dereliction of duty imo.Is that a job for the police though? Is it not more a question of stewarding? I'm not looking to defend or contradict anyone, it's just that I honestly don't know.

Skol
29-06-2018, 06:48 PM
Because he was the guy who had access to the CCTV feeds and could see what was happening. He did nothing to close off the central pens and redirect folk to the emptier side ones. A gross dereliction of duty imo.

I think you overestimate the CCTV that was available way back then !

A lot of poor decisions were made that day with tragic consequences. No one intended people to lose their lives as a result of decisions made. In fact all decisions were made to try and get everyone to see the game.

tamig
29-06-2018, 06:49 PM
Is that a job for the police though? Is it not more a question of stewarding? I'm not looking to defend or contradict anyone, it's just that I honestly don't know.

He was the match commander. Stewards play a much more prominent role now than they did back in the 80s. The match commander now - like then - assumes full responsibilty for crowd control.

tamig
29-06-2018, 06:52 PM
I think you overestimate the CCTV that was available way back then !

A lot of poor decisions were made that day with tragic consequences. No one intended people to lose their lives as a result of decisions made. In fact all decisions were made to try and get everyone to see the game.

It wasn’t HD quality and was grainy for sure. However, I’m sure we’ve all seen footage from the cameras on the day and it was pretty clear what was unfolding. It doesn’t appear as if he took the right corrective action. Fatal mistake and he was ultimately responsible.

StevieC
29-06-2018, 07:10 PM
I think you overestimate the CCTV that was available way back then !

A lot of poor decisions were made that day with tragic consequences. No one intended people to lose their lives as a result of decisions made. In fact all decisions were made to try and get everyone to see the game.

I think anyone that attended games in the 80's will appreciate the total disdain afforded to football supporters by the police and those in authority. Treated like ****, hearded like cattle. Yes, it was the era of the football hooligan but ALL supporters were treated the same way, including women and children.

It could be argued that it still goes on today, if trips to Ibrox are anything to go by.

hibsbollah
29-06-2018, 07:14 PM
I think anyone that attended games in the 80's will appreciate the total disdain afforded to football supporters by the police and those in authority. Treated like ****, hearded like cattle. Yes, it was the era of the football hooligan but ALL supporters were treated the same way, including women and children.

It could be argued that it still goes on today, if trips to Ibrox are anything to go by.

:agree: Correct. It was police and government policy, especially after the Luton Millwall riot.

Scouse Hibee
29-06-2018, 07:34 PM
It wasn’t HD quality and was grainy for sure. However, I’m sure we’ve all seen footage from the cameras on the day and it was pretty clear what was unfolding. It doesn’t appear as if he took the right corrective action. Fatal mistake and he was ultimately responsible.

The biggest mystery to me and it always has been is how lessons were not learned from the semi final the year before against the same opposition at the same venue. I was in the Leppings Lane centre pens and crushed to ****, the most worried I have ever been about my safety. Hence my decision not to go in that same area a year later.

Skol
29-06-2018, 08:04 PM
Attending football back then was a very different experience to that we have today.The approach to policing was poor, but then again there was a very unsavoury element that caused problems every week which made their jobs even more difficult.

Through no fault of my own I was in quite few quite scary incidents and the vast majority were as a direct result of the behaviour of fans. Granted some were caused or not helped by police. The worst of these actually took place not far from Anfield where the police and Liverpool fans were badly at fault.

We are in danger of applying 2018 standards to events of 1989.

Devonhibs
29-06-2018, 08:41 PM
The match commander now - like then - assumes full responsibilty for crowd control.[/QUOTE]

Incorrect. The responsibility for crowd safety within grounds nowadays sits firmly with the clubs and their safety manager. Hence very few cops in the grounds anymore. They are responsible for maintain order and dealing with disorder outside the grounds in the public area.

Devonhibs
29-06-2018, 08:47 PM
The biggest mystery to me and it always has been is how lessons were not learned from the semi final the year before against the same opposition at the same venue. I was in the Leppings Lane centre pens and crushed to ****, the most worried I have ever been about my safety. Hence my decision not to go in that same area a year later. Duckenfield never received any specific training on how to run a policing operation like this. He picked up the role simply because he became the senior officer in that division at the time. There was no proper mechanism to hand over the experience when one senior officer moved on etc.

All police officers involved in policing high profile sporting events nowadays receive lots of training alongside their counterparts, like the safety officer at the grounds. I have have training to deal with public order situations although not at the level of match commander, more boots on the ground. This was one of the few positives to come out of Hillsborough. Whilst the focus is on him, there are others facing action, including the safety officer employed by the club.

mca
29-06-2018, 09:01 PM
Attending football back then was a very different experience to that we have today.The approach to policing was poor, but then again there was a very unsavoury element that caused problems every week which made their jobs even more difficult.


I attended a game at Hillsborough 10th sept 1988 v Coventry city.. The police were still in Miners Strike mode.. !!!

They really were against the public back then.. cops were nicking people for looking at them and the Crowds were pretty rowdy.. bottles getting thrown and smashed for no reason... Just mad with it yorkies and brummies i suppose ... but the cops were loving a riot...

Was my first english game on my own and as a 14yr old i was scared effing witless and only a crowd of 15k..


As a Big Liverpool fan - im kinda glad my folks stopped me from going to sheffield for that game.. JFT96 x

tamig
29-06-2018, 09:06 PM
The match commander now - like then - assumes full responsibilty for crowd control.

Incorrect. The responsibility for crowd safety within grounds nowadays sits firmly with the clubs and their safety manager. Hence very few cops in the grounds anymore. They are responsible for maintain order and dealing with disorder outside the grounds in the public area.
Sorry about that then. When did that change take place then? Was it part of the Taylor Report?

superfurryhibby
29-06-2018, 09:14 PM
I think anyone that attended games in the 80's will appreciate the total disdain afforded to football supporters by the police and those in authority. Treated like ****, hearded like cattle. Yes, it was the era of the football hooligan but ALL supporters were treated the same way, including women and children.

It could be argued that it still goes on today, if trips to Ibrox are anything to go by.

This is the bottom line. The Police covered up their negligent role and the media backed them up to the hilt.

Clubs were also culpable and grounds should have been made safer decades earlier than they were. For those too young to have experienced a full terracing, it was absolutely terrifying at times. Not just because of hooliganism or drink taken, also the sheer weight of numbers. I’ll also never forget being off my feet trying to enter Tynecastle, Gorgie Road end in September 1973, literally lifted and shifted.

When you watch what unfolded at Hillsborough, it was truly unforgivable and totally avoidable. Those in charge made poor decisions and ultimately tragedy unfolded. Heartbreaking even now.

Keith_M
29-06-2018, 09:22 PM
What about the other Police, and the Politicians, involved in the cover up of the day's events?

Tynie01011973
29-06-2018, 09:30 PM
Love the hypocrisy of this, chase down people to blame for 23years yet totally ignore Heysel,where only 13 fans were jailed for the murder of Juve fans

tamig
29-06-2018, 09:33 PM
Love the hypocrisy of this, chase down people to blame for 23years yet totally ignore Heysel,where only 13 fans were jailed for the murder of Juvenile fans

That would suggest Heysel wasn’t ignored. Nobody’s done time for Hillsborough - yet.

Scouse Hibee
29-06-2018, 09:34 PM
Duckenfield never received any specific training on how to run a policing operation like this. He picked up the role simply because he became the senior officer in that division at the time. There was no proper mechanism to hand over the experience when one senior officer moved on etc.

All police officers involved in policing high profile sporting events nowadays receive lots of training alongside their counterparts, like the safety officer at the grounds. I have have training to deal with public order situations although not at the level of match commander, more boots on the ground. This was one of the few positives to come out of Hillsborough. Whilst the focus is on him, there are others facing action, including the safety officer employed by the club.

Yes I am aware of his lack of training and many other shortfalls that were highlighted during the enquiry. One of the poorest decisions made was his appointment as match commander.

Scouse Hibee
29-06-2018, 09:36 PM
Love the hypocrisy of this, chase down people to blame for 23years yet totally ignore Heysel,where only 13 fans were jailed for the murder of Juvenile fans

Think you need to read your own contradiction and try again.

Mick O'Rourke
29-06-2018, 09:46 PM
Its not just about Duckenfield
The cover up and lies will come out of the upcoming trials
A lawyer and 2 other police officers have also been charged.
Perveting the course of justice carries serious penalties
The families of the victims are entitled to see those responsible and also the liars brought to justice.

Bostonhibby
29-06-2018, 09:53 PM
Its not just about Duckenfield
The cover up and lies will come out of the upcoming trials
A lawyer and 2 other police officers have also been charged.
Perveting the course of justice carries serious penalties
The families of the victims are entitled to see those responsible and also the liars brought to justice.Hopefully there's proper scrutiny to a criminal evidence standard of the senior police officers decision to have other officers alter their statements.

Interesting to note the chief constable at the time is seeking to avoid the proceedings as well.



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pacorosssco
29-06-2018, 10:36 PM
Is that a job for the police though? Is it not more a question of stewarding? I'm not looking to defend or contradict anyone, it's just that I honestly don't know.

Police are paid stewards. They are in charge

pacorosssco
29-06-2018, 10:37 PM
Its not just about Duckenfield
The cover up and lies will come out of the upcoming trials
A lawyer and 2 other police officers have also been charged.
Perveting the course of justice carries serious penalties
The families of the victims are entitled to see those responsible and also the liars brought to justice.

Yes 30 years of lies. After unlawful death verdict the charges should have been made immediately

heretoday
29-06-2018, 10:47 PM
I don't envy this guy.

pacorosssco
29-06-2018, 10:57 PM
The police on day were badly let down too. Had to face the horror then be forced into cover up. As public servants they should also be able to bring charge against leaders

JimBHibees
30-06-2018, 08:02 AM
The police on day were badly let down too. Had to face the horror then be forced into cover up. As public servants they should also be able to bring charge against leaders

They were however they would know what they were doing was wrong in the aftermath but very few if any spoke out about it which is imo shameful. Culture of the time was Thatchers Britain, miners strike and riots at collieries including in South Yorkshire region.

superfurryhibby
30-06-2018, 08:32 AM
They were however they would know what they were doing was wrong in the aftermath but very few if any spoke out about it which is imo shameful. Culture of the time was Thatchers Britain, miners strike and riots at collieries including in South Yorkshire region.

Indeed, there was a toxicity to the policing of that era, supported by the government of the day. The miners, hippies (Stonehenge) and football fans all suffered for it. An era when corruption was rife. People died from faling down the stairs after being arrested and innocents were jailed for crimes they never committed.

Post industrial Britain was a mess. Corruption was rife and those in power acted with impunity. As the scandals of establishment perversion have revealed in recent years, there was no limit to their deviant ways.

Hillsborough was inevitable and at the same time entirely avoidable. Football authorities played their part too. Everyone knew that the decrepit stadia of that era were unfit and unsafe, no one acted. Moneyand contempt for fans prevailed. Ibrox, Bradford, Heysel, Hillsborough..... a role of shame.

Devonhibs
30-06-2018, 09:32 AM
Sorry about that then. When did that change take place then? Was it part of the Taylor Report?
Yes, this was the catalyst for lots of change for the police and local authorities. Much of which is contained within two publications called the blue and purple guide (I might have got the colours wrong). One covers design of sports stadia and the other covers planning by all for a safe event.

HappyAsHellas
30-06-2018, 10:30 AM
The biggest mystery to me and it always has been is how lessons were not learned from the semi final the year before against the same opposition at the same venue. I was in the Leppings Lane centre pens and crushed to ****, the most worried I have ever been about my safety. Hence my decision not to go in that same area a year later.

I believe the cop in charge the previous year closed the gates on the main road to ease the crushing. Why this wasn't done on the fateful day has to be scrutinised.

spike220
30-06-2018, 10:45 AM
The evidence to put this man on trial has been around since 1995. Which is when I first read Phil Scrutons first report on the disaster when I was at uni.

Maybe twenty three years is the optimum time for justice to be applied to those in positions of power? Maybe in another ten years we'll start to see convictions in say, the knowing collusion of the police, the BBC, the Home Office et al in burying evidence in the Jimmy Saville case?

But in the meantime we'll be told that evidence that challenges official accounts are always 'conspiracy theories':rolleyes:

I dont know what i find more shocking. The fact that the evidence has been around since 1995, or the fact that Hibsbollah went to uni!

Bristolhibby
30-06-2018, 11:54 AM
The local authority/council made the decision to clad the building with the material,now said to be the main cause of the fire spreading so quickly.

They installed this cladding at the behest of the more affluent neighbours in the manor who felt the tower and its exterior was an "eyesore"

The "blame" lies with those councillors and contractors who installed the material,which it has since been revealed is banned for such use in most European countries and the USA.

This is so obviously the issue. It’s dumbfounding that we are pissing about throwing genuine heroes under the bus.

Councillors, manufacturers and safety inspectors are to blame.

J

Galahibby
30-06-2018, 12:55 PM
This thread is going away from Hillsborough I know, but I remember when Jimmy Saville died, and nothing was in the media about his child rapery until the following year.

There was a RIP thread on here, and in the middle of it all Doddie (I'm not sure if he posts on here anymore) said his father told him stories that Saville tried to get kids into his sleeper cabin, when Doddies dad worked on the railways. I remember thinking that was a bit harsh on a rip thread since it was only a bit of hearsay. 6 months later and the truth about him is the biggest story on the news for weeks.

I keep thinking if someone like Doddies dad knew about Saville, and casually talked about it, how many hundreds of other people must have known what he was up to, which must have included countless people who would have the power to stop it. His connection with senior policemen, politicians and organised crime have been well documented. But no prosecutions for those who kept it quiet. Meanwhile hundreds maybe thousands of lives are damaged forever. Crazy.

My ex was in the police, and it was common knowledge as far back as the early 90s that Saville wasn't the national treasure he was made out to be. Beggars belief (sorry, that phrase has been ruined by Jim Traynor!) that nothing was done about him when he was still alive 😡

allezsauzee
30-06-2018, 01:35 PM
My ex was in the police, and it was common knowledge as far back as the early 90s that Saville wasn't the national treasure he was made out to be. Beggars belief (sorry, that phrase has been ruined by Jim Traynor!) that nothing was done about him when he was still alive 😡

Given that we have possibly the most intrusive media in the world, I think questions have to be asked as to what the tabloids were covering up about Saville & Co. As far as the Sun's treatment of Liverpool fans at Hillsborough goes, Kelvin McKenzie should have been held personally accountable for the lies that were spread in the same way that the Match commander is belatedly being held accountable.

jacomo
30-06-2018, 01:56 PM
Given that we have possibly the most intrusive media in the world, I think questions have to be asked as to what the tabloids were covering up about Saville & Co. As far as the Sun's treatment of Liverpool fans at Hillsborough goes, Kelvin McKenzie should have been held personally accountable for the lies that were spread in the same way that the Match commander is belatedly being held accountable.


:agree:

Saville in particular, given his very close relationships with the media.

superfurryhibby
30-06-2018, 02:25 PM
:agree:

Saville in particular, given his very close relationships with the media.

He was also very well connected to our royal family and leading Tory politicians of that era. Now that couldn’t have been a factor surely?

Greentinted
30-06-2018, 02:45 PM
The common denominator concerning the travesties of Hillsborough, Orgreave and Savile is she who referred to football fans and miners as ‘The Enemy Within’. Margaret Thatcher: she who badgered the honours committee into submission to bestow a knighthood on Jimmy Savile.
She has sadly escaped justice so hopefully Duckenfield will feel the full weight of the consequences of his reprehensible actions on that day in April ‘89.

Hiber-nation
28-11-2019, 04:58 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-50592077

Duckenfield cleared of manslaughter....:rolleyes:

The 90+2
28-11-2019, 05:09 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-50592077

Duckenfield cleared of manslaughter....:rolleyes:

Piss poor decision really.

ben johnson
28-11-2019, 05:13 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-50592077

Duckenfield cleared of manslaughter....:rolleyes:

Willing to take a bumper salary and fat pension but not the responsibility

Green Man
28-11-2019, 05:16 PM
Horrible news. The man is a disgrace and I was hoping to see him rot in jail.

Scottie
28-11-2019, 05:17 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-50592077

Duckenfield cleared of manslaughter....:rolleyes:
Shocking decision. No justice for the 96 , their families or the British justice system. Absolute white wash of the highest calibre. May they rest in peace.

green day
28-11-2019, 05:20 PM
"Mr Duckenfield did not dispute that he ordered the opening of a gate at Hillsborough to let fans in, or that he failed to close the tunnel to the terraces which were already full. In 2015 at the Hillsborough Inquests he accepted that this was the direct cause of the 96 deaths.


But an inquest is not a criminal court, and so it was for another jury to decide whether Mr Duckenfield's mistakes amounted to gross negligence manslaughter.


The crown's case was that the Chief Superintendent's failings were so extraordinary that they met that test.


But the jury accepted the defence case that the 75 year old was a target of blame who was unfairly singled out for prosecution.


He will now be able to resume his life in retirement on the south coast. But the Hillsborough families and survivors will find the outcome hard to take… and will ask hard questions about the £65m spent on a criminal investigation which has ended with no one convicted for so many lives lost."

The bit in bold.........................I hope he cant sleep at night

Killiehibbie
28-11-2019, 05:30 PM
The bit that gets me was the inaction of the police commander when it was clear to anybody watching the events unfold that people were getting crushed. He made the decision to line his officers along the halfway line instead of trying to save peoples lives. He must've been aware of the problems caused by overcrowding in there before but let it happen again with tragic consequences that were avoidable with a bit of planning.

McIntosh
28-11-2019, 05:44 PM
No doubt that he was guilty of gross incompetence but manslaughter, no. It will be a hard painful decision for the families to takes and they have all my sympathies but it is the right decision. I saw Heysel and Hillsborough unfold in front of my very eyes, it seems a completely different time but both disasters had a few things in common - contempt of fans and amateurish organisation. The football culture of the time was poisonous, Liverpool and this will be hard for the fans of the club to accept had a damaged reputation, however this is no excuse for what happened but indicative of the odious culture which surrounded football at the time.

blackpoolhibs
28-11-2019, 06:13 PM
No doubt that he was guilty of gross incompetence but manslaughter, no. It will be a hard painful decision for the families to takes and they have all my sympathies but it is the right decision. I saw Heysel and Hillsborough unfold in front of my very eyes, it seems a completely different time but both disasters had a few things in common - contempt of fans and amateurish organisation. The football culture of the time was poisonous, Liverpool and this will be hard for the fans of the club to accept had a damaged reputation, however this is no excuse for what happened but indicative of the odious culture which surrounded football at the time.

That is how i see it too, times have changed and things would and should be done different now, but at the time football fans were treated differently by people who knew no different.

It was a tragedy that Duckenfield will feel he could have handled differently, and wished he had, but he handled them in the way things were handled at that time, amateurishly.

He also tried to cover up his mistakes, and for that he should have been sacked, but in my opinion he never for one minute went out to work and thought he'd be responsible for the deaths of those poor people when he arrived at Hillsborough.

erin go bragh
28-11-2019, 06:22 PM
If he hadn’t told lies about the fans rioting, the ambulances could have went straight in and saved many life’s .
Bloody right he was guilty. Feel so sorry for all affected by his inexcusable actions .

JimBHibees
28-11-2019, 06:25 PM
If he hadn’t told lies about the fans rioting, the ambulances could have went straight in and saved many life’s .
Bloody right he was guilty. Feel so sorry for all affected by his inexcusable actions .

Agree the cover up to cover his own incompetence and negligence were despicable. Guilty as sin even taking into account the differing culture at football at the time.

HIBERNIAN-0762
28-11-2019, 06:44 PM
A masonic cover up if there ever was one, if not then they should bring a private prosecution against him, an absolute disgrace.

ben johnson
28-11-2019, 06:47 PM
Liverpool Echo reporting that the defence team attempted to introduce a video of extreme football violence to be shown to the jurors. It seemingly was some of the most extreme violence ever caught on camera.
It had no connection whatsoever with Liverpool fans but the defence wanted to show the jurors the video to show what the police were up against in those days
The Judge saw through it thankfully but does the desperate attempts to paint all football fans as hooligans ever end

McIntosh
28-11-2019, 06:50 PM
A masonic cover up if there ever was one, if not then they should bring a private prosecution against him, an absolute disgrace. Wow - I’ve heard it all. This is effectively the end of the legal processes in relation to Hillsborough.

Baader
28-11-2019, 07:01 PM
Shameful stuff.

Skol
28-11-2019, 07:07 PM
Anyone who attended football matches at the time will know it was a very different situation to that of today and you cannot judge decisions of the time by the standards of today.

While it is clear that very bad decisions were made that day you have to remember the poisonous atmosphere at football. The police were very heavy handed and the fans treated authority as the enemv.

truehibernian
28-11-2019, 07:08 PM
Agree the cover up to cover his own incompetence and negligence were despicable. Guilty as sin even taking into account the differing culture at football at the time.

I must admit to having not followed this case however what would also bother me Jim is the fact that there were no other / alternate charges considered such as attempting to pervert the course of justice / defeat the ends of justice, given that there is overwhelming evidence of statement tampering (to the extent they totally changed the context and truth of the original police and witness statements) and the fact Duckenfield himself attempted to cover up his original interpretation of events and lied.

The Assistant Commissioner who oversaw the case was bang on - the tragedy amongst all tragedies of this event is that it took 30 years to get to this stage. That's what is utterly despicable.

The families (and survivors) continue to conduct themselves with dignity which is astonishing given what they've been through and had to endure. You have to feel for them at this time.

Cataplana
28-11-2019, 07:08 PM
The only compassion I can find for him is that I doubt he went to work that day with the intention of killing 96 people.

Killiehibbie
28-11-2019, 07:24 PM
The only compassion I can find for him is that I doubt he went to work that day with the intention of killing 96 people.

That would be murder but his actions or lack of led to the deaths and that is manslaughter.

green day
28-11-2019, 07:26 PM
No doubt that he was guilty of gross incompetence but manslaughter, no. It will be a hard painful decision for the families to takes and they have all my sympathies but it is the right decision. I saw Heysel and Hillsborough unfold in front of my very eyes, it seems a completely different time but both disasters had a few things in common - contempt of fans and amateurish organisation. The football culture of the time was poisonous, Liverpool and this will be hard for the fans of the club to accept had a damaged reputation, however this is no excuse for what happened but indicative of the odious culture which surrounded football at the time.

I was at Hillsborough as well - the previous year too - and you are right, it was a different time.

But the police seemed to have forgotten that their primary role was and remains the safety of the public.

At that match, like the previous year, fans were all assumed by the police to be thugs and treated accordingly.

That the police put Duckenfield (who was not that experienced) in charge of this match was indicative of the contempt with which they treated football fans.

His lack of knowledge of the Leppings Lane access, gates and the implications of opening one and hence allowing people to flood through to the central pen are at the heart of this tragedy.

Cataplana
28-11-2019, 07:27 PM
That would be murder but his actions or lack of led to the deaths and that is manslaughter.

I tend to agree. Again, trying to empathize, losing control of machinery and causing death would be. He lost control of the "machinery" of crowd safety.

Killiehibbie
28-11-2019, 07:27 PM
Wow - I’ve heard it all. This is effectively the end of the legal processes in relation to Hillsborough.

Not according to the news bulletin I heard. Other legal proceedings ongoing.

EI255
28-11-2019, 07:29 PM
Pretty shocking that no one is gonna be held accountable to this.

Imagine if it were Hibs fans.

Utter disgrace.

That's UK justice system for ya.

Sent from my LG-H840 using Tapatalk

Killiehibbie
28-11-2019, 07:33 PM
I tend to agree. Again, trying to empathize, losing control of machinery and causing death would be. He lost control of the "machinery" of crowd safety.

It would seem he made no attempt to familiarise himself with the machinery and tried to cover up his ineptitude but the jury thought otherwise.

Weegreenman
28-11-2019, 07:35 PM
No justice and no surprise really.

McIntosh
28-11-2019, 07:45 PM
Not according to the news bulletin I heard. Other legal proceedings ongoing. Yes in April but this is the end of directly responsibility proceedings.

ancient hibee
28-11-2019, 07:52 PM
There was never any chance of him being convicted after 30 years.The real disgrace is the refusal of the authorities to take the death of 96 people seriously enough to get to the bottom of it in all that time.If it hadn’t been for the families and the guy from I think Liverpool uni. it wouldn’t have got this far.

Scouse Hibee
28-11-2019, 08:00 PM
Mine is an unpopular view but I never thought he should be held directly responsible. He was inexperienced, ill advised and lacked the training to be put in the position he was in. Yes his actions and the cover up following were despicable but I have never been comfortable with him being the one to take the rap for everything.

Pretty Boy
28-11-2019, 08:05 PM
Hillsborough was an accident waiting to happen. Look at the footage from the Liverpool game there the season before or the Wolves v Spurs game from 1981.

There was a catalogue of errors that started with continuing to allow games to be played at a ground where there had already been at least 2 near misses. Add an inexperienced match commander into the mix and a government that had an ideological hatred of the working class football fan and the subsequent trickle down effect that had.

Did Duckenfield intend to cause the deaths of football fans that day? Of course not, that's murder. Did his actions contribute to the tragic outcome? Undoubtedly in my mind. Was he solely to blame? Again not in my mind. Society, culture, a Police force empowered by their use as a private army during the miners strike and a shambolic and flawed attitude towards health and safety were all huge contributing factors.

I read a piece the other day about a Doctor convicted of manslaughter through negligence when a child in her care died. The difficulty in these cases is proving someone was grossly negligent to a point beyond incompetence. In that instance other Doctors rallied around her because they felt she was made a scapegoat for systematic failings within the NHS and the failings of senior colleagues who offered her as the sacrificial lamb. I wonder if, to some extent, Duckenfield was also meant to be the lamb in this instance. It's almost undeniable he was incompetent but he was only a part of a far bigger failure.

jacomo
28-11-2019, 08:09 PM
Mine is an unpopular view but I never thought he should be held directly responsible. He was inexperienced, ill advised and lacked the training to be put in the position he was in. Yes his actions and the cover up following were despicable but I have never been comfortable with him being the one to take the rap for everything.


Where does it go from here then?

Seems like a collective shrug, sympathy for the victims and a promise that ‘lessons will be learned’.

Yes it was a different time. You had club chairmen like Ken Bates musing about installing electrified fences to keep the fans under control. But the failures that day - not just organisation, but basic humanity - cannot be excused.

blackpoolhibs
28-11-2019, 08:10 PM
Hillsborough was an accident waiting to happen. Look at the footage from the Liverpool game there the season before or the Wolves v Spurs game from 1981.

There was a catalogue of errors that started with continuing to allow games to be played at a ground where there had already been at least 2 near misses. Add an inexperienced match commander into the mix and a government that had an ideological hatred of the working class football fan and the subsequent trickle down effect that had.

Did Duckenfield intend to cause the deaths of football fans that day? Of course not, that's murder. Did his actions contribute to the tragic outcome? Undoubtedly in my mind. Was he solely to blame? Again not in my mind. Society, culture, a Police force empowered by their use as a private army during the miners strike and a shambolic and flawed attitude towards health and safety were all huge contributing factors.

I read a piece the other day about a Doctor convicted of manslaughter through negligence when a child in her care died. The difficulty in these cases is proving someone was grossly negligent to a point beyond incompetence. In that instance other Doctors rallied around her because they felt she was made a scapegoat for systematic failings within the NHS and the failings of senior colleagues who offered her as the sacrificial lamb. I wonder if, to some extent, Duckenfield was also meant to be the lamb in this instance. It's almost undeniable he was incompetent but he was only a part of a far bigger failure.


:top marks

HUTCHYHIBBY
28-11-2019, 08:18 PM
Mine is an unpopular view but I never thought he should be held directly responsible. He was inexperienced, ill advised and lacked the training to be put in the position he was in. Yes his actions and the cover up following were despicable but I have never been comfortable with him being the one to take the rap for everything.

Since being at the game and entering the stand opposite the main stand via The Leppings Lane entrance at the time the big gate was opened I've always maintained that it was the correct decision or people would've been crushed to death outside. The failure to close the tunnel to the central pen first will mystify me for the rest of my days though.

There was still a fair amount of space in the two side pens IIRC.

Scouse Hibee
28-11-2019, 08:23 PM
Since being at the game and entering the stand opposite the main stand via The Leppings Lane entrance at the time the big gate was opened I've always maintained that it was the correct decision or people would've been crushed to death outside. The failure to close the tunnel to the central pen first will mystify me for the rest of my days though.

Agreed, as you know I was there too and due to my experience the previous year in the Leppings Lane Terracing central pen I decided I wouldn’t go in there again and managed to get tickets in the stand. There is no doubt in my mind that there would have been fatalities outside had the gate not been opened. There was ample space in the outside pens exactly the same as the previous year.

Cataplana
28-11-2019, 08:35 PM
Hillsborough was an accident waiting to happen. Look at the footage from the Liverpool game there the season before or the Wolves v Spurs game from 1981.

There was a catalogue of errors that started with continuing to allow games to be played at a ground where there had already been at least 2 near misses. Add an inexperienced match commander into the mix and a government that had an ideological hatred of the working class football fan and the subsequent trickle down effect that had.

Did Duckenfield intend to cause the deaths of football fans that day? Of course not, that's murder. Did his actions contribute to the tragic outcome? Undoubtedly in my mind. Was he solely to blame? Again not in my mind. Society, culture, a Police force empowered by their use as a private army during the miners strike and a shambolic and flawed attitude towards health and safety were all huge contributing factors.

I read a piece the other day about a Doctor convicted of manslaughter through negligence when a child in her care died. The difficulty in these cases is proving someone was grossly negligent to a point beyond incompetence. In that instance other Doctors rallied around her because they felt she was made a scapegoat for systematic failings within the NHS and the failings of senior colleagues who offered her as the sacrificial lamb. I wonder if, to some extent, Duckenfield was also meant to be the lamb in this instance. It's almost undeniable he was incompetent but he was only a part of a far bigger failure.

Great post.

Cataplana
28-11-2019, 08:38 PM
Mine is an unpopular view but I never thought he should be held directly responsible. He was inexperienced, ill advised and lacked the training to be put in the position he was in. Yes his actions and the cover up following were despicable but I have never been comfortable with him being the one to take the rap for everything.

Very sensitive area this.

Do you think the relatives are right to focus all their anger on him. It seems a bit like anybody will do.

I have no doubt those people have been let down.

Scouse Hibee
28-11-2019, 08:59 PM
Very sensitive area this.

Do you think the relatives are right to focus all their anger on him. It seems a bit like anybody will do.

I have no doubt those people have been let down.

I was there witnessed it and fortunately never lost anyone known or close to me. I will never criticise or even comment on what the relatives of those who lost loved ones are doing. I will only give my own views on the subject.

hibeerealist
28-11-2019, 09:04 PM
Justice for the 96, afraid not?

Duckenfield appears to have “benefited” by the fact that some of the other senior officers on duty that day are dead and it is was argued by his lawyers that it is now unfair that Duckenfield should shoulder all the blame. He was the match commander and had CCTV coverage on numerous parts of the ground and its entrances as well as real time reports from his officers on the ground at these numerous locations, how anyone, let alone a senior policeman, could view these and not think the police had lost / were losing control is beyond belief.

It is abundantly clear that the police had to get the situation under control and it was not hooligans it was ordinary fans being crushed outside and inside the stadium with the police merely watching it unfold. I accept that the police advised commander to open the gates outside to relieve the crushing but where exactly did they think all these fans were going to go?

The police management of the whole situation was farcical and the cover up (altering statements etc) criminal, the match commander is ultimately responsible and, I would argue, liable.

These poor people (that died), their families, those fans involved in the crushes and near to those that died have all been let down by the Judiciary, after 30 years how can they possibly accept such a shocking and regretful decision??!!

Shame on those responsible for letting them down I don’t know how they can sleep at night!!

God bless them all and we fellow fans will never forget.

Justice for the 96!

Skol
28-11-2019, 09:21 PM
And is it right that one man takes the rap for a multitude of failings ?

LancashireHibby
28-11-2019, 09:21 PM
Was there a particular reason why the aim was to have Dukenfield found guilty of manslaughter rather than going for a corporate manslaughter charge against SWFC/South Yorks Police/the FA? Given the context of there being so many factors - the allocation of ends, previous crushing incidents,*the lack of a proper safety certificate, the appointment of the commander etc - it seemed*odd to try and pin it on to the acts of an individual and not necessarily taking in to account the mitigating factors.*

Scouse Hibee
28-11-2019, 09:24 PM
And is it right that one man takes the rap for a multitude of failings ?

Absolutely not in my mind.

Doh Rae Me
28-11-2019, 09:31 PM
I think the people effected by that day really just want some sort of closure. I dont know the answers and it's just really sad that after all this time they still dont have it.

hibeerealist
28-11-2019, 09:43 PM
And is it right that one man takes the rap for a multitude of failings ?

No I agree it should not be one man, I watched policemen walking the perimeter looking at Liverpool fans squashed up on a fence and doing nothing - why?

Policemen pushing fans back over the fence into the pends when they were practically free from the hell.

There were many things that should have resulted in a number of police in the dock there is no doubt about that. The policing that day was farcical as I said previously and it started from the top down. I watched a few documentaries on the disaster and there were a number of cops very distressed by what they saw and the lack of leadership from their seniors.

The buck has to stop somewhere and it should have been Duckenfield and his “senior team” whoever they were and however many they were.

Cannot help but feel the dead and their families have been badly let down repeatedly.

Stokesy's on fire
28-11-2019, 10:44 PM
A masonic cover up if there ever was one, if not then they should bring a private prosecution against him, an absolute disgrace.

Agreed totally

McIntosh
28-11-2019, 11:17 PM
Agreed totally That kind of nonsense does not help, it really doesn't. Pretending that there was a Masonic conspiracy orchestrating the cover up is an insult to everyone's intelligence. There is no evidence to support these claims beyond prejudice and paranoia. The cover up and manipulation of evidence owes everything to very understandable, yet nauseating self interest and the toxic politics of the 1980s rather than some unseen "dark" forces.

I find the posters posts deeply depressingly because they only serve to detract the truth, that long dead officers and officials were culpably negligent in the needless death of 96 human being. For clarity, I am not a mason .

Sheep_Nae_Mair
28-11-2019, 11:36 PM
A masonic cover up if there ever was one, if not then they should bring a private prosecution against him, an absolute disgrace.

I think there was a private prosecution against Duckenfield in 2000, the jury failed to reach a verdict and the judge ruled out any further prosecutions.

Cataplana
29-11-2019, 08:17 AM
I was there witnessed it and fortunately never lost anyone known or close to me. I will never criticise or even comment on what the relatives of those who lost loved ones are doing. I will only give my own views on the subject.

Thanks.

May21/05/16
29-11-2019, 08:53 AM
The criminal justice is rotten in this country 96 people were unlawfully killed and the families are getting no justice I just feel so sad that the families are treated by the criminal justice this way

There is plenty of other people that are guilty of covering up what happened and it took a priest to find out as all the evidence was out there

The same thing has started with the report about the grenfell tragedy the families of the that preventable tragedy will get know justice


Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

Cataplana
29-11-2019, 09:32 AM
The criminal justice is rotten in this country 96 people were unlawfully killed and the families are getting no justice I just feel so sad that the families are treated by the criminal justice this way

There is plenty of other people that are guilty of covering up what happened and it took a priest to find out as all the evidence was out there

The same thing has started with the report about the grenfell tragedy the families of the that preventable tragedy will get know justice


Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

It seems to take a lifetime before people are brought to justice in these things. All covering up for each other.

One Day Soon
29-11-2019, 10:10 AM
I assume this was a trial by jury? It seems to me that this guy, culpable or not, has faced the music in one way or another at least twice now so if he hasn't been deemed guilty then either he's innocent or there is corruption, insufficient evidence or incompetent/poor prosecution.

Whatever is the case I am in a way relieved that he hasn't been made the witch to burn in this whole thing because I think the responsibility falls much, much more widely than just one individual. For the families this must be a hell that just won't diminish.

Sometimes bad things just happen. Sometimes bad things happen because we haven't learned yet how to make sure they don't. Sometimes bad things happen because some people are treated institutionally as being literally worth less than others. Broadly, I think the last of these is what happened here and the outcome was enabled by a whole bunch of organizationally inadequate procedures and attitudes.

In fact the institution which has inadvertently shed the greatest light on this is the Sun. Their lies in the following day's edition about the behaviour of Liverpool fans and the headline - 'You 5cum' - that Kelvin Mackenzie nearly ran before changing it, tells us everything needed to know what happened.

Everything within me screams that this attitude was as much about class prejudice as anything else. That attitude to football fans was what all the authorities governing, regulating and controlling football really thought and believed. That's why fans were treated like 5cum, looked after like 5cum and exposed to the danger of death like 5cum.

And it's also why there's been only slow, reluctant and inadequate redress in trying to find out the detail of the real truth. At root the institutional belief over the decades has still been that even if the fans didn't actually cause it on that day, they nevertheless were/are 5cum. Somehow therefore they must have brought it on themselves, some part of the blame must be theirs.

jacomo
29-11-2019, 11:38 AM
Grenfell was about class prejudice as well.

The poor people in that tower had warned about safety fears for years but no one listened.

So long as those in power can continue to hide behind ‘the system’ then it will never change. They are the system.

JimBHibees
29-11-2019, 11:46 AM
I assume this was a trial by jury? It seems to me that this guy, culpable or not, has faced the music in one way or another at least twice now so if he hasn't been deemed guilty then either he's innocent or there is corruption, insufficient evidence or incompetent/poor prosecution.

Whatever is the case I am in a way relieved that he hasn't been made the witch to burn in this whole thing because I think the responsibility falls much, much more widely than just one individual. For the families this must be a hell that just won't diminish.

Sometimes bad things just happen. Sometimes bad things happen because we haven't learned yet how to make sure they don't. Sometimes bad things happen because some people are treated institutionally as being literally worth less than others. Broadly, I think the last of these is what happened here and the outcome was enabled by a whole bunch of organizationally inadequate procedures and attitudes.

In fact the institution which has inadvertently shed the greatest light on this is the Sun. Their lies in the following day's edition about the behaviour of Liverpool fans and the headline - 'You 5cum' - that Kelvin Mackenzie nearly ran before changing it, tells us everything needed to know what happened.

Everything within me screams that this attitude was as much about class prejudice as anything else. That attitude to football fans was what all the authorities governing, regulating and controlling football really thought and believed. That's why fans were treated like 5cum, looked after like 5cum and exposed to the danger of death like 5cum.

And it's also why there's been only slow, reluctant and inadequate redress in trying to find out the detail of the real truth. At root the institutional belief over the decades has still been that even if the fans didn't actually cause it on that day, they nevertheless were/are 5cum. Somehow therefore they must have brought it on themselves, some part of the blame must be theirs.

Great post the cover up was so much worse than the actual incident if that was possible. The early wrong message put out that fans had charged the gate. FA officials being told by police the same. The sun attack on the fans being the most despicable and sickening. Witnesses being bullied into changing evidence around signs of life after 320 or so even though a female police officer clearly hearing a dying young fan call for his mum much nearer 4. Absolutely shocking that Duckenfield was the only one charged as this would have included hundreds of people sticking to the same lies. Successive governments ignoring family pleas. The recent BBC documentary outlines the super human bravery of the families to even get anywhere near a court room, many have died in the meantime. The work of Phil Scraton was monumental also. Unfortunately the long suffering families will only see this as another kick in the teeth and imo they should have got some solace by Duckenfield being found guilty.

.Sean.
29-11-2019, 12:19 PM
This thread is going away from Hillsborough I know, but I remember when Jimmy Saville died, and nothing was in the media about his child rapery until the following year.

There was a RIP thread on here, and in the middle of it all Doddie (I'm not sure if he posts on here anymore) said his father told him stories that Saville tried to get kids into his sleeper cabin, when Doddies dad worked on the railways. I remember thinking that was a bit harsh on a rip thread since it was only a bit of hearsay. 6 months later and the truth about him is the biggest story on the news for weeks.

I keep thinking if someone like Doddies dad knew about Saville, and casually talked about it, how many hundreds of other people must have known what he was up to, which must have included countless people who would have the power to stop it. His connection with senior policemen, politicians and organised crime have been well documented. But no prosecutions for those who kept it quiet. Meanwhile hundreds maybe thousands of lives are damaged forever. Crazy.
Johnny Rotten spoke out about what Saville was upto way back in The late 70s - he said so in an interview with the BBC which conveniently got lost for about 30 years. It’s on YouTube.

jacomo
29-11-2019, 12:53 PM
Johnny Rotten spoke out about what Saville was upto way back in The late 70s - he said so in an interview with the BBC which conveniently got lost for about 30 years. It’s on YouTube.


:agree:

And this is the point... it’s not about saying ‘oh it was a different time and nobody knew any better’. They knew but the system allowed them to turn a blind eye.

These families have waited 30 years for justice. How much longer?

Mantis Toboggan
29-11-2019, 01:51 PM
I assume this was a trial by jury? It seems to me that this guy, culpable or not, has faced the music in one way or another at least twice now so if he hasn't been deemed guilty then either he's innocent or there is corruption, insufficient evidence or incompetent/poor prosecution.

Whatever is the case I am in a way relieved that he hasn't been made the witch to burn in this whole thing because I think the responsibility falls much, much more widely than just one individual. For the families this must be a hell that just won't diminish.

Sometimes bad things just happen. Sometimes bad things happen because we haven't learned yet how to make sure they don't. Sometimes bad things happen because some people are treated institutionally as being literally worth less than others. Broadly, I think the last of these is what happened here and the outcome was enabled by a whole bunch of organizationally inadequate procedures and attitudes.

In fact the institution which has inadvertently shed the greatest light on this is the Sun. Their lies in the following day's edition about the behaviour of Liverpool fans and the headline - 'You 5cum' - that Kelvin Mackenzie nearly ran before changing it, tells us everything needed to know what happened.

Everything within me screams that this attitude was as much about class prejudice as anything else. That attitude to football fans was what all the authorities governing, regulating and controlling football really thought and believed. That's why fans were treated like 5cum, looked after like 5cum and exposed to the danger of death like 5cum.

And it's also why there's been only slow, reluctant and inadequate redress in trying to find out the detail of the real truth. At root the institutional belief over the decades has still been that even if the fans didn't actually cause it on that day, they nevertheless were/are 5cum. Somehow therefore they must have brought it on themselves, some part of the blame must be theirs.

With regard to the trial that has just concluded, the behaviour of the defence lawyer as detailed in https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/nov/28/how-david-duckenfield-trial-left-hillsborough-families-distraught-again is distasteful at best.

heretoday
29-11-2019, 02:40 PM
Mr Duckenfield will have to live with his conscience until the day he meets his maker. To some, that is a worse sentence than a stretch in jail.

ben johnson
29-11-2019, 03:52 PM
Mr Duckenfield will have to live with his conscience until the day he meets his maker. To some, that is a worse sentence than a stretch in jail.

A simple way to ease his conscience would have been to plead guilty and not appoint a top QC to get out of the mess he was in.
If he was the least bit affected by it he would have been in no fit state the next day to start the web of lies that were invented to protect those around him and more importantly himself.

hibsbollah
28-05-2021, 04:28 PM
Im surprised theres been no discussion about the latest Hillsborough legal farce. The final case collapses against key police officers who falsified witness statements. It just seems to be a technicality. And after all this time, no convictions and there will never be any.

Worst of all, some of the original lies still seem to be out there. Unbelievably, this was from the QC defending the police;

In his interview with the presenter Adrian Chiles within hours of Metcalf’s formal acquittal, QC Goldberg said Metcalf had cut out from police statements criticism of Liverpool supporters at Hillsborough, “whose behaviour was perfectly appalling on the day, causing a riot that led to the [exit] gate having to be opened, that unfortunately let the people in, and crushed to death the innocents … who were at the front of the pens, who had arrived early and were not drunk and were behaving perfectly well. But as always, it’s the innocents who suffer unfortunately.”

Kato
28-05-2021, 05:04 PM
Joe Bloggs versus The Police in court? Very little chance of justice. The lies told at the time have had way more publicity than the actual truth so the original narrative will stick in people's heads for ever more - no justice there either.

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ancient hibee
28-05-2021, 05:10 PM
The real question is why were they charged with an offence that quickly emerged as being the wrong one.

Killiehibbie
28-05-2021, 06:22 PM
Did I hear correctly?
It's ok to falsify statements if there are no criminal proceedings at that time.

ancient hibee
28-05-2021, 07:15 PM
I
Did I hear correctly?
It's ok to falsify statements if there are no criminal proceedings at that time.

Almost.They were charged with perverting the course of justice but the statements were for an inquiry not a court so there was no justice to pervert! Could surely have had another charge-maybe malfeasance in public office.Doesn’t look as if the prosecution service tried too hard.

Killiehibbie
28-05-2021, 07:47 PM
I

Almost.They were charged with perverting the course of justice but the statements were for an inquiry not a court so there was no justice to pervert! Could surely have had another charge-maybe malfeasance in public office.Doesn’t look as if the prosecution service tried too hard.

The cover up started on the day and is continuing.

JimBHibees
28-05-2021, 10:37 PM
The cover up started on the day and is continuing.

Yep absolutely despicable.

Killiehibbie
28-05-2021, 11:03 PM
I

Almost.They were charged with perverting the course of justice but the statements were for an inquiry not a court so there was no justice to pervert! Could surely have had another charge-maybe malfeasance in public office.Doesn’t look as if the prosecution service tried too hard.

Does the fact that there may have been future criminal proceedings not count? They were hiding the truth to protect the guilty.

Danderhall Hibs
29-05-2021, 09:30 AM
Does the fact that there may have been future criminal proceedings not count? They were hiding the truth to protect the guilty.

They got off on a technicality - I thought more would’ve been made of it. Probably lucky they’re already drawing their pension.

Killiehibbie
29-05-2021, 09:51 AM
They got off on a technicality - I thought more would’ve been made of it. Probably lucky they’re already drawing their pension.

If the authorities were doing their job from day one it would've been a criminal investigation. This should not be the end of it.