SNP Growth Commission Report

[JeMeSouviens]

Gets published tomorrow. As you would expect, some bits are being leaked and spun already. Twitter is going to be an unreadable nightmare as the zealots on both sides tell you it's a warped fantasy perpetrated by evil anti-English bigots or the greatest thing since sliced milk and honey.

Meanwhile, in the oasis of thoughtful calm that is the .net Holy Ground, I'm sure we'll all try and digest the report fully before undertaking the usual quality analysis that's the hallmark of this forum. :wink:

Worth a reminder: the remit:


COMMISSION REMIT

The Commission will assess the projections for Scotland’s economy and public finances, consider the implications for our economy and finances of different potential governance scenarios, and make recommendations for policy on:

Measures to boost economic growth and improve Scotland's public finances - both now in the aftermath of the EU referendum and in the context of independence;

The potential for and best use of savings from UK programmes in the event of independence, such as Trident;

The range of transitional cost and benefits associated with independence and arrangements for dealing with future revenue windfalls, including future North Sea Revenues.

In addition, the Commission will take account of the recommendations of the 2013 Fiscal Commission reports, and the outcome of the EU referendum, and consider the most appropriate monetary policy arrangements to underpin a programme for sustainable growth in an independent Scotland.

And makeup of the commission:


Andrew Wilson (Chairman), former SNP MSP and Economy and Finance spokesperson, Founding Partner, Charlotte St Partners
Cllr Marie Burns, Shadow Economy and Communities Spokesperson, North Ayrshire Council and former Director of Skills Interventions at Skills Development Scotland
Prof Iain Docherty, Professor of Public Policy and Governance, University of Glasgow
Kate Forbes, MSP for Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch
Prof Andrew Hughes Hallet, Professor of Economics and Public Policy, George Mason University and University of St Andrews
Dan McDonald, Businessman and Founder of N56 group
Derek MacKay MSP, Scottish Government Cabinet Secretary for Finance
Marie Macklin CBE, Chief Executive of the Klin Group and Macklin Enterprise Partnership
Jim Mather, Former Enterprise Minister and Visiting Professor at the University of Strathclyde and Heriot Watt University
Roger Mullin MP, SNP Westminster Finance Spokesperson
Prof Catherine Schenk, Professor of International Economic History, University of Glasgow
Mark Shaw, Chief Executive, Hazledene
Shirley-Anne Somerville, Minister for Further Education, Higher Education and Science
Petra Wetzel, Founder and Managing Director WEST Brewery

I actually really like this forum for its diversity of perspective, so looking forward to discussing it. Having said that I don't expect any of the Unionists to be swayed or any of the Nats to give up.

As a side note, I actually knew Andrew Wilson a bit at Uni, we worked together on a summer job between 1st and 2nd year. Nice bloke and diehard Motherwell fan.

[Stranraer]

Looking forward to it's release. My paper today says there will be a £4100 "boost" for every Scot so onwards to indy!

[JeMeSouviens]

Looking forward to it's release. My paper today says there will be a £4100 "boost" for every Scot so onwards to indy!

Jesus Christ on a bike! Exactly the sort of stupid forecast I was hoping to avoid. The only thing worse would be if it was on the side of a bus. :rolleyes:

[One Day Soon]

I think this will turn out to be quite a big 'Meh' moment for a variety of reasons.

[RyeSloan]

I think this will turn out to be quite a big 'Meh' moment for a variety of reasons.

Most probably but if it has any serious considerations on how a Scottish currency would work it may be worth something.

What I hope it is not is full of fantasy predictions and forecasts.

[lord bunberry]

What it does show is that the second referendum isn’t far away.

[The Pointer]

If the Nats are saying we will be £4,100 each better off, I know it will be pie-in the-sky nonsense. Equally a Scottish pound.

Confetti springs to mind.

[JeMeSouviens]

If the Nats are saying we will be £4,100 each better off, I know it will be pie-in the-sky nonsense. Equally a Scottish pound.

Confetti springs to mind.

Well that was a helpful contribution.

[JeMeSouviens]

Quoting GDP per capita increases or decreases (which is what this £4100 is supposed to refer to) as if every actual person will be personally enriched or impoverished by that amount is one of the dumbest bits of journalistic pish we have to put up with.

I can't figure out if it's done to be deliberately misleading or if the average journo just doesn't understand the figures they've been told to parrot.

Anyway, fwiw, this one isn't even a dumb forecast that RyeSloan would hate, all it says is that Scotland currently lags the median GDP per capita of a group of 12 similarly sized countries by £4100.

In other words, under our present constitutional arrangement we're doing pish.

No **** sherlock. :rolleyes:

[Tornadoes70]

The Scottish currency would in my opinion if we ever were allowed to have a second referendum and if which is still a massive if we did vote to break away from the rest of the UK be worth jube jubes in the real world of the Euro, Dollar, Yen and UK pound etc. In little time at all I'm in no doubt we'd have to go cap in hand to the EU begging them to let us in and adopt the Euro therefore becoming an insignificant tiny region of the European Union.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

[JeMeSouviens]

The Scottish currency would in my opinion if we ever were allowed to have a second referendum and if which is still a massive if we did vote to break away from the rest of the UK be worth jube jubes in the real world of the Euro, Dollar, Yen and UK pound etc. In little time at all I'm in no doubt we'd have to go cap in hand to the EU begging them to let us in and adopt the Euro therefore becoming an insignificant tiny region of the European Union.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

Is there any reasoning behind your opinion? Why can, picking a random nearby example, Denmark, manage to sustain its own currency but we couldn't?

[Tornadoes70]

Is there any reasoning behind your opinion? Why can, picking a random nearby example, Denmark, manage to sustain its own currency but we couldn't?

If we ever do vote to break away then I'll be of course hoping it works out just fine however i'm entitled to my opinion just as everybody else is and if you don't like it there's not much I can do about it.

I'm not against independence per say but like a lot of folk need a great deal of convincing that it would be better than what we'd be giving up. No one could reasonably say with certainty that the transition would not cost jobs and a downgrade of the money in their pocket, pensions and any other number of upheaval consequences.

You might be arguing for it as is your right to but please respect others right to point out very possible effects of leaving the UK would involve.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

[PeeJay]

The Scottish currency would in my opinion if we ever were allowed to have a second referendum and if which is still a massive if we did vote to break away from the rest of the UK be worth jube jubes in the real world of the Euro, Dollar, Yen and UK pound etc. In little time at all I'm in no doubt we'd have to go cap in hand to the EU begging them to let us in and adopt the Euro therefore becoming an insignificant tiny region of the European Union.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

No - if the Scottish currency is worth no more than "jube jubes" as you say then an independent Scotland won't be able to go "cap in hand" to the EU to join the EU and the "euro" - the EU would not accept Scotland - certainly not as "beggars" nor as a country with a failed currency ... the convergence criteria alone would be more than a stumbling block ...

[grunt]

The Scottish currency would in my opinion if we ever were allowed to have a second referendum and if which is still a massive if we did vote to break away from the rest of the UK be worth jube jubes in the real world of the Euro, Dollar, Yen and UK pound etc. In little time at all I'm in no doubt we'd have to go cap in hand to the EU begging them to let us in and adopt the Euro therefore becoming an insignificant tiny region of the European Union.

Mon the Cabbage!!!Iceland, population 337,000. Own currency.

[RyeSloan]

If we ever do vote to break away then I'll be of course hoping it works out just fine however i'm entitled to my opinion just as everybody else is and if you don't like it there's not much I can do about it.

I'm not against independence per say but like a lot of folk need a great deal of convincing that it would be better than what we'd be giving up. No one could reasonably say with certainty that the transition would not cost jobs and a downgrade of the money in their pocket, pensions and any other number of upheaval consequences.

You might be arguing for it as is your right to but please respect others right to point out very possible effects of leaving the UK would involve.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

I don’t think anyone was doubting your right to an opinion, the question was about the reasoning that led you to that opinion.

FWIW even in the world of fiat currencies there normally needs to be some capital at the central bank to back that currency...so the implementation of a new Scottish currency is rather difficult.

And that’s before you consider the possible implications of a Scottish currency free floating against sterling and the potential for significant loss in value of assets that were previously valued in gbp but are now valued in the Scottish pound (assuming the currency move was a negative one).

That kind of run on the Scottish pound is a real possibility and you just need to look to the likes of Turkey as to what the main outcome of it is...central banks desperately trying to defend the currency by jacking interest rates. Those old enough to remember the last days of the ERM will remember the horror of 15% interest rates.

Anyhoo that’s the piece I’m interested in as it’s appears to be he most difficult piece of the Indy puzzle...without it there is little sense in seeking full political autonomy but remaining in a currency union, that argument didn’t wash last time and still won’t.

[johnbc70]

Is this based on an oil price of $X? Or is it not that type of report. Although I see the price is rising.

[grunt]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dd9OVjOVwAI53V6.jpg

[JeMeSouviens]

If we ever do vote to break away then I'll be of course hoping it works out just fine however i'm entitled to my opinion just as everybody else is and if you don't like it there's not much I can do about it.

I'm not against independence per say but like a lot of folk need a great deal of convincing that it would be better than what we'd be giving up. No one could reasonably say with certainty that the transition would not cost jobs and a downgrade of the money in their pocket, pensions and any other number of upheaval consequences.

You might be arguing for it as is your right to but please respect others right to point out very possible effects of leaving the UK would involve.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

You’re absolutely entitled to your opinion whether I like it or not, but if you’re going to make a bold statement about a Scottish currency being worth sweeties then I think you should be able to back it up.

[Tornadoes70]

You’re absolutely entitled to your opinion whether I like it or not, but if you’re going to make a bold statement about a Scottish currency being worth sweeties then I think you should be able to back it up.

Wasn't a 'bold statement' at all, merely giving my opinion based upon my thoughts.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

[JeMeSouviens]

Wasn't a 'bold statement' at all, merely giving my opinion based upon my thoughts.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

Well it’s not going to be much of a discussion if you don’t share any of those thoughts?

[Tornadoes70]

Well it’s not going to be much of a discussion if you don’t share any of those thoughts?

I never was a one for setting out my workings at the side of exam papers mate. If you want to try to convince folk like myself who have doubts of a stand alone Scottish Pound being successful then I'm very willing to read your thoughts on the matters. I may have doubts but I've still got an open mind as per independence.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

[snooky]

Iceland, population 337,000. Own currency.

Aye, and they jailed the bankers who crashed their economy, IIRC.
It's a pity we didn't.
i.e. Freddie & his Dreamers.

[johnbc70]

Aye, and they jailed the bankers who crashed their economy, IIRC.
It's a pity we didn't.
i.e. Freddie & his Dreamers.

The SNP paper is written by ex RBS banker is it not?

[IGRIGI]

I would definitely be in favour of a separate currency upon independence, vital to have full monetary control.

It was a major weak spot during the first referendum.

Happy to see also that finally some work is being done on the economic case after years of hearing that it should be done but no action being taken.

[johnbc70]

Looking forward to it's release. My paper today says there will be a £4100 "boost" for every Scot so onwards to indy!

Last time it was £600 per person, now it's £4,100. That's quite a jump in just a few years!

[One Day Soon]

What it does show is that the second referendum isn’t far away.


In fact I think it shows exactly the opposite.

And if the SNP are wise they'll use this as a starting point for a lengthy discussion on how to deliver growth in the Scottish economy in a way that transforms the nature of any future debate on independence. In the short and medium term there's no pain-free currency option and neither is there an answer on filling Scotland's structural deficit - growth is what is needed to resolve that equation, which is exactly why Andrew Wilson was asked to look at the growth challenge as the centre piece of this report.

If you stick with the pound the rUK controls your currency - including mortgage rates, inflation levels and money supply.
If you leave the UK you're out of Europe so no Euro. To join it you need to accept the Euro and meet its preconditions. If you succeed then the EU controls your currency - including again mortgage rates, inflation levels and money supply.
If you set up a Scottish currency - the groat or whatever - you need a huge mass of reserves so that currency speculators can't basically torch the value of your currency overnight when they decide there's a killing to be made. Those reserves can only come from an economy that is strong, has high growth rates and a public account that is properly balanced.

So, growth is the thing. Curiously being able to deliver growth is also what unionists require because if you can deliver that now you can make the case for the Union delivering for the Scottish economy within the current constitutional settlement.

I would ague that there has been no real economic policy for Scotland since the beginning of devolution from any party. In fact most politicians in the Parliament will struggle to engage with this.

[Colr]

Looking forward to it's release. My paper today says there will be a £4100 "boost" for every Scot so onwards to indy!

I’m confused! Is it a growth strategy or a manifesto for independence?

[JeMeSouviens]

Last time it was £600 per person, now it's £4,100. That's quite a jump in just a few years!

I explained what the £4100 means above (in short, f all).

[JeMeSouviens]

In fact I think it shows exactly the opposite.

And if the SNP are wise they'll use this as a starting point for a lengthy discussion on how to deliver growth in the Scottish economy in a way that transforms the nature of any future debate on independence. In the short and medium term there's no pain-free currency option and neither is there an answer on filling Scotland's structural deficit - growth is what is needed to resolve that equation, which is exactly why Andrew Wilson was asked to look at the growth challenge as the centre piece of this report.

If you stick with the pound the rUK controls your currency - including mortgage rates, inflation levels and money supply.
If you leave the UK you're out of Europe so no Euro. To join it you need to accept the Euro and meet its preconditions. If you succeed then the EU controls your currency - including again mortgage rates, inflation levels and money supply.
If you set up a Scottish currency - the groat or whatever - you need a huge mass of reserves so that currency speculators can't basically torch the value of your currency overnight when they decide there's a killing to be made. Those reserves can only come from an economy that is strong, has high growth rates and a public account that is properly balanced.

So, growth is the thing. Curiously being able to deliver growth is also what unionists require because if you can deliver that now you can make the case for the Union delivering for the Scottish economy within the current constitutional settlement.

I would ague that there has been no real economic policy for Scotland since the beginning of devolution from any party. In fact most politicians in the Parliament will struggle to engage with this.

I agree with most of this except that I think unionism’s strategy has been entirely based on fostering a culture of dependency and I can’t see many (any?) of its key players keen to change that.

Also while I would prefer a patient strategy, the indy majority at holyrood might not be around much longer.

[johnbc70]

I explained what the £4100 means above (in short, f all).

So I wonder why it is being used as the focal point and stand out item of the report then?

[JeMeSouviens]

So I wonder why it is being used as the focal point and stand out item of the report then?

By the press? Easy headline I suppose. Whether you want to portray it as brave aspiration or evil mendacity.

[lord bunberry]

In fact I think it shows exactly the opposite.

And if the SNP are wise they'll use this as a starting point for a lengthy discussion on how to deliver growth in the Scottish economy in a way that transforms the nature of any future debate on independence. In the short and medium term there's no pain-free currency option and neither is there an answer on filling Scotland's structural deficit - growth is what is needed to resolve that equation, which is exactly why Andrew Wilson was asked to look at the growth challenge as the centre piece of this report.

If you stick with the pound the rUK controls your currency - including mortgage rates, inflation levels and money supply.
If you leave the UK you're out of Europe so no Euro. To join it you need to accept the Euro and meet its preconditions. If you succeed then the EU controls your currency - including again mortgage rates, inflation levels and money supply.
If you set up a Scottish currency - the groat or whatever - you need a huge mass of reserves so that currency speculators can't basically torch the value of your currency overnight when they decide there's a killing to be made. Those reserves can only come from an economy that is strong, has high growth rates and a public account that is properly balanced.

So, growth is the thing. Curiously being able to deliver growth is also what unionists require because if you can deliver that now you can make the case for the Union delivering for the Scottish economy within the current constitutional settlement.

I would ague that there has been no real economic policy for Scotland since the beginning of devolution from any party. In fact most politicians in the Parliament will struggle to engage with this.
I’m not disagreeing with you on that, but I still think the stage is being set for another referendum, and the points you make are ones that will need to be answered during the campaign.

[Sylar]

So I wonder why it is being used as the focal point and stand out item of the report then?

It isn't (we've had advance access to the report, so I've seen it already - our Institute director was on BBC Radio talking about it earlier this morning).

[johnbc70]

It isn't (we've had advance access to the report, so I've seen it already - our Institute director was on BBC Radio talking about it earlier this morning).

It was, maybe not so much as more detail has been released but it certainly was the focal point.

[Sylar]

It was, maybe not so much as more detail has been released but it certainly was the focal point.

It's not the focus of the report.

The media might be spinning a story around that one aspect, but that's not the same thing.

[RyeSloan]

Having skim read the summary I’ve got to say that the ‘Meh’ comment above is probably the most accurate commentary I have seen.

All very vague and aspirational with lots of notional targets and ambitions.

An interesting stat was the near 9% deficit they suggest Scotland is running just now.

The other main strand I noticed was lots of proposed commissions and central strategies...probably the opposite of what a highly productive economy needs.


So far so bland as far as I can see.

[JeMeSouviens]

It's online here:

https://www.sustainablegrowthcommission.scot/

[degenerated]

If the Nats are saying we will be £4,100 each better off, I know it will be pie-in the-sky nonsense. Equally a Scottish pound.

Confetti springs to mind.Absolutely, cause Scotland is uniquely incapable of having it's own currency.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[grunt]

Having skim read the summary I’ve got to say that the ‘Meh’ comment above is probably the most accurate commentary I have seen.

All very vague and aspirational with lots of notional targets and ambitions.

An interesting stat was the near 9% deficit they suggest Scotland is running just now.

The other main strand I noticed was lots of proposed commissions and central strategies...probably the opposite of what a highly productive economy needs.


So far so bland as far as I can see.I'm not sure I understand where this negativity is coming from. The SNP produce a report suggesting they'd like to investigate the best way to stimulate Scotland's economy and improve our public finances and your response is "meh"?

"Lots of proposed commissions"? I see two proposed Commissions - I haven't read the whole thing, so there may be more - one on productivity and one on infrastructure. If we are to build a new independent country isn't it a good idea to have people looking at what infrastructure is required and how to improve productivity? It's probably not going to happen by itself.

Perhaps you have suggestions on how you'd do things differently? Or maybe you're simply not interested, in which case I can understand your response.

[ronaldo7]

Maybe we should have placed the report in a locked room where unionist MP's can book a timeslot to view it, but without any phones or camera equipment.

Mostly positive vibes on MSM, with the odd grumble, so we're moving forward.

Loving the immigration discussion.

[RyeSloan]

I'm not sure I understand where this negativity is coming from. The SNP produce a report suggesting they'd like to investigate the best way to stimulate Scotland's economy and improve our public finances and your response is "meh"?

"Lots of proposed commissions"? I see two proposed Commissions - I haven't read the whole thing, so there may be more - one on productivity and one on infrastructure. If we are to build a new independent country isn't it a good idea to have people looking at what infrastructure is required and how to improve productivity? It's probably not going to happen by itself.

Perhaps you have suggestions on how you'd do things differently? Or maybe you're simply not interested, in which case I can understand your response.

My comment was on commissions and strategies: to name just a few

Productivity Commission

Gender pay commission

Infrastructure commission

Scottish fiscal commission

National economic strategy

International government and multi national organisation strategy

Strategy on participation and inclusion

Export growth strategy

National brand strategy

Digital strategy

Universities growth strategy

Etc etc.

My point is a general one...who creates all of these wonderful strategies, how do they know they are the right strategy, where does one commission or strategy stop and the other one start, why do they think that companies, universities and the economy as a whole needs grand plans and cunning strategies to succeed?

It seems to me they have looked at some of the worlds economies and then went down a huge rabbit hole in terms of how such conditions (quite how relevant New Zealand is to Scotland I have no idea) could be replicated here with their answer being lots of grand strategies, targets (10 years of 2.5% growth then 15 years of 3.5% gdp growth! Ha if only the SNP and all their strategies to date had achieved anything like that) and centrally decided priorities.

It’s a ‘Meh’ from me as I was hoping for some proper radical thinking that would challenge the status quo. Instead we get a bland list of nothing really new and certainly nothing very radical, exciting or challenging.

[JeMeSouviens]

My comment was on commissions and strategies: to name just a few

Productivity Commission

Gender pay commission

Infrastructure commission

Scottish fiscal commission

National economic strategy

International government and multi national organisation strategy

Strategy on participation and inclusion

Export growth strategy

National brand strategy

Digital strategy

Universities growth strategy

Etc etc.

My point is a general one...who creates all of these wonderful strategies, how do they know they are the right strategy, where does one commission or strategy stop and the other one start, why do they think that companies, universities and the economy as a whole needs grand plans and cunning strategies to succeed?

It seems to me they have looked at some of the worlds economies and then went down a huge rabbit hole in terms of how such conditions (quite how relevant New Zealand is to Scotland I have no idea) could be replicated here with their answer being lots of grand strategies, targets (10 years of 2.5% growth then 15 years of 3.5% gdp growth! Ha if only the SNP and all their strategies to date had achieved anything like that) and centrally decided priorities.

It’s a ‘Meh’ from me as I was hoping for some proper radical thinking that would challenge the status quo. Instead we get a bland list of nothing really new and certainly nothing very radical, exciting or challenging.

I haven't even read the summary yet, but the key plank of growth would appear to be growing the tax base, ie. incentivised immigration and inward investment. These are things completely outside the current devolved gov's control.

Being inside the EU while Britain exits make these very achievable goals, imo. We are about to be kicked in the nads by Brexit but also given a long term strategic advantage if we choose to use it.

[JeMeSouviens]

The Beeb's Douglas Fraser:


From what we know about it so far, the report of the Sustainable Growth Commission sounds like a serious document for serious times.

It is a more mature approach than we've seen for a long time, and surely demands a mature response.

[lord bunberry]

The Beeb's Douglas Fraser:
We certainly won’t get a mature response. I’ve already read stuff on twitter comparing us to small nations like Moldova and Nicaragua

[grunt]

It’s a ‘Meh’ from me as I was hoping for some proper radical thinking that would challenge the status quo. Instead we get a bland list of nothing really new and certainly nothing very radical, exciting or challenging.So what do you suggest we do instead?

[marinello59]

We certainly won’t get a mature response. I’ve already read stuff on twitter comparing us to small nations like Moldova and Nicaragua

I’m not so sure Twitter is the place to look for mature debate from either side.

[IGRIGI]

I’m not so sure Twitter is the place to look for mature debate from either side.

After taking a break of 1-2 years from using Twitter to follow the independence debate I decided to have a look, after a few minutes I just wanted to shut myself away in a dark room.

I hope the report at the very least starts a debate on the strategies for growth of the Scottish economy.

[Tornadoes70]

After taking a break of 1-2 years from using Twitter to follow the independence debate I decided to have a look, after a few minutes I just wanted to shut myself away in a dark room.

I hope the report at the very least starts a debate on the strategies for growth of the Scottish economy.

Seems very cynical to only begin a debate now after a good number of years in charge? Some might say its only because they're in the dying days of a majority and other parties especially Labour under Jeremy Corbyn and Richard Leonard here are growing in stature. Leonard's been very impressive recently now he's becoming experienced in the ways of being Scottish Labour leader against Sturgeon who looks as if she is being led by the fringes of her party and being bounced into talking up separation.

[snooky]

Seems very cynical to only begin a debate now after a good number of years in charge? Some might say its only because they're in the dying days of a majority and other parties especially Labour under Jeremy Corbyn and Richard Leonard here are growing in stature. Leonard's been very impressive recently now he's becoming experienced in the ways of being Scottish Labour leader against Sturgeon who looks as if she is being led by the fringes of her party and being bounced into talking up separation.

D'you think? :confused:

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I havent read it in any great detail, but i think having this approach is a good one, at least in terms of furnishing a debate.

I met one of the commission members at a dinner and she was interesting to talk to.

The big problem as i see it is the transition. I have no trouble believing that in 15 years+, and indy scotland could be doing well (whatever that means to different people, itself a problematic discussion for another thread), but i struggle to see how we get there without some pretty major economic shocks. Solve that conundrum, and the SNP will have made real progress.

Im not sure they have, but good on them for trying.

A side note, but does nobody else think a founding partner of a major lobbying consultancy is a curious choice to potentially lead the economic development of his country? I can imagine the furore of the boss of weber shandwick or lexington was writing the post brexit script for the tory govt in London?

[stoneyburn hibs]

Seems very cynical to only begin a debate now after a good number of years in charge? Some might say its only because they're in the dying days of a majority and other parties especially Labour under Jeremy Corbyn and Richard Leonard here are growing in stature. Leonard's been very impressive recently now he's becoming experienced in the ways of being Scottish Labour leader against Sturgeon who looks as if she is being led by the fringes of her party and being bounced into talking up separation.


Do you have both Jeremy and Richard plants on your window sill? Keep watering them mate.

[Tornadoes70]

I havent read it in any great detail, but i think having this approach is a good one, at least in terms of furnishing a debate.

I met one of the commission members at a dinner and she was interesting to talk to.

The big problem as i see it is the transition. I have no trouble believing that in 15 years+, and indy scotland could be doing well (whatever that means to different people, itself a problematic discussion for another thread), but i struggle to see how we get there without some pretty major economic shocks. Solve that conundrum, and the SNP will have made real progress.

Im not sure they have, but good on them for trying.

A side note, but does nobody else think a founding partner of a major lobbying consultancy is a curious choice to potentially lead the economic development of his country? I can imagine the furore of the boss of weber shandwick or lexington was writing the post brexit script for the tory govt in London?

The proposed by the snp stand alone Scottish currency could be worth the equivalent of the russian rouble for a good number of years whereby public sector worker wages, pensions and those on low incomes and benefits could be decimated until whenever leading to poverty possibly never seen before. However if this is a price worth paying for independence many might say its worth it.

[Tornadoes70]

[QUOTE=snooky;5414596]D'you think? :confused:[

Yes snooky.

What concerns me is the reality of utopian thinking.

The scottish currency as proposed by the snp will very probably be like snow on a dyke, there one day and not the next as American tourists pin it to their wall back home in the USA as a laughable lamento of their scottish trip.

Hey, see what I got over in scotland, a scottish note, its worth next to nothing but I'm going to pin it up on the wall next to the drachma and lira.

God help the public sector, disabled, unemployed etc.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

[IGRIGI]

On the separate currency from what I understand they do not propose it from day 1, we would use the pound for a period of time until we were in the position to move to a separate currency.

We would most likely tie it to the pound for a further period of time before making it a free floating currency.

Mark Carney of the Bank of England stated again recently that monetary union is economically possible, it's all down to the politics.

I'd imagine there would be grandstanding again of why it would be blocked by a rUK government but I would imagine they would be in line given the size of the possible shock to the balance of trade if the significant level of Scottish exports was to be pulled.

[Hibrandenburg]

[QUOTE=snooky;5414596]D'you think? :confused:[

Yes snooky.

What concerns me is the reality of utopian thinking.

The scottish currency as proposed by the snp will very probably be like snow on a dyke, there one day and not the next as American tourists pin it to their wall back home in the USA as a laughable lamento of their scottish trip.

Hey, see what I got over in scotland, a scottish note, its worth next to nothing but I'm going to pin it up on the wall next to the drachma and lira.

God help the public sector, disabled, unemployed etc.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

But surely if people buy a currency using their own currency and then just use that to stuff their mattresses then that increases the value of the currency bought?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The proposed by the snp stand alone Scottish currency could be worth the equivalent of the russian rouble for a good number of years whereby public sector worker wages, pensions and those on low incomes and benefits could be decimated until whenever leading to poverty possibly never seen before. However if this is a price worth paying for independence many might say its worth it.

No doubt, many will see it as a price worth paying, and many more will simply discount the possibility. However these groups arent the ones who need to be convinced.

Personally speaking, i would need enormous reassurance to even consider moving my pension, savings etc out of sterling, and i suspect many more would do the same - i cant see how huge capital flight could be avoided, putting any new currency on the defensive from the outset?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

On the separate currency from what I understand they do not propose it from day 1, we would use the pound for a period of time until we were in the position to move to a separate currency.

We would most likely tie it to the pound for a further period of time before making it a free floating currency.

Mark Carney of the Bank of England stated again recently that monetary union is economically possible, it's all down to the politics.

I'd imagine there would be grandstanding again of why it would be blocked by a rUK government but I would imagine they would be in line given the size of the possible shock to the balance of trade if the significant level of Scottish exports was to be pulled.

I doubt it, englabd would play hardball in the same way as the EU imo, as would be their right.

[IGRIGI]

I doubt it, englabd would play hardball in the same way as the EU imo, as would be their right.

I think the size of the effect on the balance of trade would be too much for them to risk.

[weecounty hibby]

God help the public sector, disabled, unemployed etc.

Mon the Cabbage!!![/QUOTE]

Well done on being first up on the project fear stage.

[CropleyWasGod]

[QUOTE=snooky;5414596]D'you think? :confused:[

Yes snooky.

What concerns me is the reality of utopian thinking.

The scottish currency as proposed by the snp will very probably be like snow on a dyke, there one day and not the next as American tourists pin it to their wall back home in the USA as a laughable lamento of their scottish trip.

Hey, see what I got over in scotland, a scottish note, its worth next to nothing but I'm going to pin it up on the wall next to the drachma and lira.

God help the public sector, disabled, unemployed etc.

Mon the Cabbage!!!This new currency, according to the reports I have read and heard, would only be introduced after about 10 years and only if economic tests were met.



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[Hibrandenburg]

No doubt, many will see it as a price worth paying, and many more will simply discount the possibility. However these groups arent the ones who need to be convinced.

Personally speaking, i would need enormous reassurance to even consider moving my pension, savings etc out of sterling, and i suspect many more would do the same - i cant see how huge capital flight could be avoided, putting any new currency on the defensive from the outset?

I wish I'd moved mine years back.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I think the size of the effect on the balance of trade would be too much for them to risk.

Possibly, you might be right. But they would be losing it anyway, it would just be a question of when.

[johnbc70]

There seems to be a distinct lack of enthusiasm from our normal SNP supporters about this paper.

[Glory Lurker]

There seems to be a distinct lack of enthusiasm from our normal SNP supporters about this paper.

Well, I think it is the best thing ever. That do? :-)

[CropleyWasGod]

There seems to be a distinct lack of enthusiasm from our normal SNP supporters about this paper.Maybe they're busy reading it. [emoji6]

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[Tornadoes70]

[QUOTE=lgnsh70;5414615]This new currency, according to the reports I have read and heard, would only be introduced after about 10 years and only if economic tests were met.



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And in the meantime some sort of Scottish pound would be the currency?

We would have just exited from the UK and they would be looking for a clean break from us while we seek to belligerently name our stand alone currency as the 'Scottish Pound' solely it would seem to pretend to a number of Scots who don't like change that there's nothing to see here?

The Scottish folk aren't mugs and just because a new blowing in the wind currency sounds like the old one it won't have anywhere near the previous Sterling backed authority of the Bank of England one.

Smoke and mirrors by the snp as per usual as they couldn't give a flying fig about the economy as all they care about is their beloved one size fits all independence and what would probably occur in the aftermath as in the loss of many thousands of public sector jobs, devaluation of our spending power, squeeze on benefits, imports and exports etc etc.

If they had been honest with the good Scottish folk and stated it will be difficult and the times ahead may be stormy post independence but may be worth it in the long term it may have gained credence but this is just bs from them and it looks exactly like the bs it is. They have some very bad advisors.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

[Mibbes Aye]

There seems to be a distinct lack of enthusiasm from our normal SNP supporters about this paper.

I stand to be corrected, but there was no press conference or public event to promote the paper, as far I've seen.

It got released online etc and Wilson and Sturgeon took a photo holding a copy in front of the Parliament.

That was it.

I think that tells you all you need to know.

[Tornadoes70]

I stand to be corrected, but there was no press conference or public event to promote the paper, as far I've seen.

It got released online etc and Wilson and Sturgeon took a photo holding a copy in front of the Parliament.

That was it.

I think that tells you all you need to know.

And there was most of us probably thinking this was to promote breakaway 2. Hey maybe the old campfire is still alight and you could attend singing whatever songs it is the gaelic presbytarians abide by.

Some of us old Labour Folk know you know?

Mon the Cabbage!!!

[CropleyWasGod]

[QUOTE=CropleyWasGod;5414731]

And in the meantime some sort of Scottish pound would be the currency?

We would have just exited from the UK and they would be looking for a clean break from us while we seek to belligerently name our stand alone currency as the 'Scottish Pound' solely it would seem to pretend to a number of Scots who don't like change that there's nothing to see here?

The Scottish folk aren't mugs and just because a new blowing in the wind currency sounds like the old one it won't have anywhere near the previous Sterling backed authority of the Bank of England one.

Smoke and mirrors by the snp as per usual as they couldn't give a flying fig about the economy as all they care about is their beloved one size fits all independence and what would probably occur in the aftermath as in the loss of many thousands of public sector jobs, devaluation of our spending power, squeeze on benefits, imports and exports etc etc.

If they had been honest with the good Scottish folk and stated it will be difficult and the times ahead may be stormy post independence but may be worth it in the long term it may have gained credence but this is just bs from them and it looks exactly like the bs it is. They have some very bad advisors.

Mon the Cabbage!!!No. Not a Scottish pound. The pound sterling.

It's one of the headline proposals.

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[ronaldo7]

I stand to be corrected, but there was no press conference or public event to promote the paper, as far I've seen.

It got released online etc and Wilson and Sturgeon took a photo holding a copy in front of the Parliament.

That was it.

I think that tells you all you need to know.

It wasn't it though, was it.

The FM did a round of interviews, both broadcast and print.

I'm sure people interested will be able to get their teeth into it after giving it a read.

It tells you all you need to know. 😃

[johnbc70]

It wasn't it though, was it.

The FM did a round of interviews, both broadcast and print.

I'm sure people interested will be able to get their teeth into it after giving it a read.

It tells you all you need to know. 😃

For something that was supposed to re-ignite the independence debate it's a bit of a damp squib.

You must be disappointed?

[ronaldo7]

For something that was supposed to re-ignite the independence debate it's a bit of a damp squib.

You must be disappointed?

It's a discussion document. We'll have the opportunity to discuss and change at the National assemblies. It will be open to civic Scotland and the wider yes movement, a start point if you will.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I stand to be corrected, but there was no press conference or public event to promote the paper, as far I've seen.

It got released online etc and Wilson and Sturgeon took a photo holding a copy in front of the Parliament.
2
That was it.

I think that tells you all you need to know.

I think the problem for the yes campsign and snp is much of the tidal wave of support for yes came from a (naive, in my view) belief that it was some sort of left leaning cause, rooted in creating some sort of anti-tory political system.

The problem with diacussinh issues like these, is that they jar with it. I believe the report points out the enormous deficit that we are already running, making spending cuts or signifcant tax rises very high on the to do list for an indy scotlands first govt.

Neither of those things is popular, or is something that sturgeon wants to dominate the debate, hence the relatively low-key launch?

[CropleyWasGod]

For something that was supposed to re-ignite the independence debate it's a bit of a damp squib.

You must be disappointed?If it's to kick off a debate, all sides have to be given time to read it. Otherwise, it just becomes the same old party-led entrenched knee-jerk reactions.

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[johnbc70]

Debate with who exactly, with SNP party members? Don't think any are going to disagree with any of it.

[CropleyWasGod]

Debate with who exactly, with SNP party members? Don't think any are going to disagree with any of it.Everybody who has an interest, of course.

There are those on either side of the debate whose views are entrenched and who won't be interested in this document. There are many in the middle, with open minds, who are willing to give it the time of day.


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[ronaldo7]

[QUOTE=lgnsh70;5414615]This new currency, according to the reports I have read and heard, would only be introduced after about 10 years and only if economic tests were met.



Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

There's only 6 stringent tests to meet though. 😂

[ronaldo7]

Debate with who exactly, with SNP party members? Don't think any are going to disagree with any of it.

You don't know Snp party members then. The debate will be strongly contested in all areas.

Of all the reporting I've seen in the last couple of days, the BBC ones have more balance than most. This augurs well for the future, or maybe Ofcom have had a word.

[Glory Lurker]

And there was most of us probably thinking this was to promote breakaway 2. Hey maybe the old campfire is still alight and you could attend singing whatever songs it is the gaelic presbytarians abide by.

Some of us old Labour Folk know you know?

Mon the Cabbage!!!

Pardon?

[johnbc70]

Oh dear, someone has been rumbled!

"A KEY section in a new SNP blueprint for independence is identical to an old report produced by a foreign Government, the Sunday Herald can reveal.

Over 950 words of a case study hailed by the SNP Growth Commission as a model for Scotland was copied and pasted from a New Zealand Treasury paper from 10 years ago, but no credit was given to the original author"

Imagine copying and pasting, he could have at least changed some of the words!

[speedy_gonzales]

Oh dear, someone has been rumbled!

"A KEY section in a new SNP blueprint for independence is identical to an old report produced by a foreign Government, the Sunday Herald can reveal.

Over 950 words of a case study hailed by the SNP Growth Commission as a model for Scotland was copied and pasted from a New Zealand Treasury paper from 10 years ago, but no credit was given to the original author"

Imagine copying and pasting, he could have at least changed some of the words!
But ctrl-c & ctrl-v is so much easier,,,,

[Mibbes Aye]

It wasn't it though, was it.

The FM did a round of interviews, both broadcast and print.

I'm sure people interested will be able to get their teeth into it after giving it a read.

It tells you all you need to know. ��

You're usually quite good at posting links.

Fancy putting some of them up? I'm genuinely struggling to find them.

I'm interested in how she presents why this no-doubt expensive commission, well-staffed by SNP and ex-SNP folk, says that an independent Scotland will have to cut public spending for years, will be tied to a foreign currency for years, and needs to offer tax cuts to immigrants - remember, while we're cutting public spending.

All to satisfy some folk's indulgence about the colour of the flag on their passport, while in Scotland the really important things like health and education are failing massively and no one takes responsibility.

It's no wonder there was no big launch and no wonder it's being punted to 'national assemblies'. These are SNP gigs, right? Democracy in action I guess.......

[IGRIGI]

All to satisfy some folk's indulgence about the colour of the flag on their passport, while in Scotland the really important things like health and education are failing massively and no one takes responsibility.

For the majority of yes voters it's the important things like health and education that need a yes vote.

I'd also say that a yes vote removes the excuse of Westminster controlling spending/budgets therefore forcing ownership of responsibility.

[Mibbes Aye]

For the majority of yes voters it's the important things like health and education that need a yes vote.

I'd also say that a yes vote removes the excuse of Westminster controlling spending/budgets therefore forcing ownership of responsibility.

Health and education have been in the power of Scottish government since devolution.

[johnbc70]

Once it's debated at the assemblies maybe someone can explain how we have gone from £600 better off in 2014 to £4,100 better off in 2018 if we vote yes.

I am guessing it's all down to economic growth. Might be hard when another country controls your interest rates though.

[Just Alf]

Once it's debated at the assemblies maybe someone can explain how we have gone from £600 better off in 2014 to £4,100 better off in 2018 if we vote yes.

I am guessing it's all down to economic growth. Might be hard when another country controls your interest rates though.

Your 1st point, along with previous posts tells me you're either just reading headlines or seeing what you want to see..... It's a pity, because it takes away the focus of your whole post as your 2nd point is bang on and is exactly the sort of thing that should be debated

[johnbc70]

Your 1st point, along with previous posts tells me you're either just reading headlines or seeing what you want to see..... It's a pity, because it takes away the focus of your whole post as your 2nd point is bang on and is exactly the sort of thing that should be debated

I am genuinely wondering why the figure is up 500% since last time? Appreciate its the headline grabbing figure but why include it in the report if they don't want people to question it.

I think I answered my own question in that it's all down to economic growth. Kind of like saying Hibs could be in the Champions League if we can play at the same level as Real Madrid and Barcelona.

[Just Alf]

I am genuinely wondering why the figure is up 500% since last time? Appreciate its the headline grabbing figure but why include it in the report if they don't want people to question it.

I think I answered my own question in that it's all down to economic growth. Kind of like saying Hibs could be in the Champions League if we can play at the same level as Real Madrid and Barcelona.Yup you did indeed answer it yourself :)

Re the 500%, it's basically a comparison, I can almost guarantee there's others where it's worse!

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[danhibees1875]

I am genuinely wondering why the figure is up 500% since last time? Appreciate its the headline grabbing figure but why include it in the report if they don't want people to question it.

I think I answered my own question in that it's all down to economic growth. Kind of like saying Hibs could be in the Champions League if we can play at the same level as Real Madrid and Barcelona.


Could it just be that our starting position is now worse compared to where we want to be - i.e. taking things back to how they were in 2014 would be beneficial to the economy.

Kind of like in 2014 Hibs just needed to be up a position in the league, but then in 2015 they needed to get up to a whole different league.

[JimBHibees]

Health and education have been in the power of Scottish government since devolution.

But not the overall budget to fund them.

[Tornadoes70]

Pardon?

The expression 'Tartan Tories' doesn't even begin to describe a vast number of the snp membership. They're more right wing nasty nationalist and uber presbytarian than the puritans themselves in my opinion of course and would impose a post breakaway austerity never felt before. It would impact most on those on low incomes, sick and disabled and those on benefits as the government finances would be in meltdown and may or may not recover in due course over a period of many years thereafter. That may a price worth paying for those who are quite fanatical regarding independence. Labour are the only true left wing party who will fight against austerity whether its against tory cuts or in the huge if the nationalists ever get their way and the financial meltdown that would undoubtedly occur.

Jeremy Corbyn may have some faults in his make up however he is a man of undoubted left wing principles and would re install many of the good values we have lost after many years of right wing rule if we vote Labour back into Westminster. Richard Leonard of Scottish Labour is also doing a fine job after being voted in as leader.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

[CropleyWasGod]

The expression 'Tartan Tories' doesn't even begin to describe a vast number of the snp membership. They're more right wing nasty nationalist and uber presbytarian than the puritans themselves in my opinion of course and would impose a post breakaway austerity never felt before. It would impact most on those on low incomes, sick and disabled and those on benefits as the government finances would be in meltdown and may or may not recover in due course over a period of many years thereafter. That may a price worth paying for those who are quite fanatical regarding independence. Labour are the only true left wing party who will fight against austerity whether its against tory cuts or in the huge if the nationalists ever get their way and the financial meltdown that would undoubtedly occur.

Jeremy Corbyn may have some faults in his make up however he is a man of undoubted left wing principles and would re install many of the good values we have lost after many years of right wing rule if we vote Labour back into Westminster. Richard Leonard of Scottish Labour is also doing a fine job after being voted in as leader.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

The SNP are an amalgam of right, left and centre, all of whom have one common ambition. If that ambition is fulfilled, the likelihood is that the party will splinter, and politics in Scotland will realign.

In that light, do you seriously think that the Scottish electorate will vote for a Government that is "more right wing nasty nationalist and uber presbytarian than the puritans themselves"?

[grunt]

The expression 'Tartan Tories' doesn't even begin to describe a vast number of the snp membership. They're more right wing nasty nationalist and uber presbytarian than the puritans themselves in my opinion of course and would impose a post breakaway austerity never felt before. It would impact most on those on low incomes, sick and disabled and those on benefits as the government finances would be in meltdown and may or may not recover in due course over a period of many years thereafter. That may a price worth paying for those who are quite fanatical regarding independence.Where do you get this opinion from?? It seems quite bizarre to me, and none of the SNP members I know are anything like this.

[Tornadoes70]

The SNP are an amalgam of right, left and centre, all of whom have one common ambition. If that ambition is fulfilled, the likelihood is that the party will splinter, and politics in Scotland will realign.

In that light, do you seriously think that the Scottish electorate will vote for a Goverment that is "more right wing nasty nationalist and uber presbytarian than the puritans themselves"?

Some plan that. Not exactly enticing is it. Meltdown wouldn't even begin to describe that situation. No thank you, not for me I want a Labour government that would fight against austerity and who looks after those at the bottom and on the fringes of society.

Vote Jeremy Corbyn and Scottish Labour who will reintroduce the good decent left wing principles and who will fight against this type of utter madness from the nationalists.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

[CropleyWasGod]

Some plan that. Not exactly enticing is it. Meltdown wouldn't even begin to describe that situation. No thank you, not for me I want a Labour government that would fight against austerity and who looks after those at the bottom and on the fringes of society.

Vote Jeremy Corbyn and Scottish Labour who will reintroduce the good decent left wing principles and who will fight against this type of utter madness from the nationalists.

Mon the Cabbage!!!


The likelihood is that, the first or second election after independence, you'd get your left-wing Government.

[grunt]

… I want a Labour government that would fight against austerity and who looks after those at the bottom and on the fringes of society.How is Labour going to help those at the bottom and on the fringes of society by supporting Brexit? That is going to significantly impact just those groups. I find myself really confused by Labour's positioning over Brexit.

[steakbake]

How is Labour going to help those at the bottom and on the fringes of society by supporting Brexit? That is going to significantly impact just those groups. I find myself really confused by Labour's positioning over Brexit.

That’s on purpose- it’s called constructive ambiguity so that remainers think there’s a chance Labour will keep us in and leavers will think they’ll take us out of the EU. Labour have lost their way and simply don’t know what they are doing on Brexit.

Corbyn is pro-Brexit - quite simply. There’s no such thing as a jobs first Brexit.

[Jack]

The expression 'Tartan Tories' doesn't even begin to describe a vast number of the snp membership. They're more right wing nasty nationalist and uber presbytarian than the puritans themselves in my opinion of course and would impose a post breakaway austerity never felt before. It would impact most on those on low incomes, sick and disabled and those on benefits as the government finances would be in meltdown and may or may not recover in due course over a period of many years thereafter. That may a price worth paying for those who are quite fanatical regarding independence. Labour are the only true left wing party who will fight against austerity whether its against tory cuts or in the huge if the nationalists ever get their way and the financial meltdown that would undoubtedly occur.

Jeremy Corbyn may have some faults in his make up however he is a man of undoubted left wing principles and would re install many of the good values we have lost after many years of right wing rule if we vote Labour back into Westminster. Richard Leonard of Scottish Labour is also doing a fine job after being voted in as leader.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

But Labour didn't even vote against, never mind fight against, the Tory austerity cuts when they had the chance. Why was that?

[ronaldo7]

Some plan that. Not exactly enticing is it. Meltdown wouldn't even begin to describe that situation. No thank you, not for me I want a Labour government that would fight against austerity and who looks after those at the bottom and on the fringes of society.

Vote Jeremy Corbyn and Scottish Labour who will reintroduce the good decent left wing principles and who will fight against this type of utter madness from the nationalists.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

Ah, the Corbyn, and Richard effect, jumping into bed with the Tories in councils all over Scotland, how very left wing of them.

[ronaldo7]

You're usually quite good at posting links.

Fancy putting some of them up? I'm genuinely struggling to find them.

I'm interested in how she presents why this no-doubt expensive commission, well-staffed by SNP and ex-SNP folk, says that an independent Scotland will have to cut public spending for years, will be tied to a foreign currency for years, and needs to offer tax cuts to immigrants - remember, while we're cutting public spending.

All to satisfy some folk's indulgence about the colour of the flag on their passport, while in Scotland the really important things like health and education are failing massively and no one takes responsibility.

It's no wonder there was no big launch and no wonder it's being punted to 'national assemblies'. These are SNP gigs, right? Democracy in action I guess.......

Did the report mention austerity? I thought it said it would increase public spending too.

Oh well, let's see what the better together mob come up with.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The expression 'Tartan Tories' doesn't even begin to describe a vast number of the snp membership. They're more right wing nasty nationalist and uber presbytarian than the puritans themselves in my opinion of course and would impose a post breakaway austerity never felt before. It would impact most on those on low incomes, sick and disabled and those on benefits as the government finances would be in meltdown and may or may not recover in due course over a period of many years thereafter. That may a price worth paying for those who are quite fanatical regarding independence. Labour are the only true left wing party who will fight against austerity whether its against tory cuts or in the huge if the nationalists ever get their way and the financial meltdown that would undoubtedly occur.

Jeremy Corbyn may have some faults in his make up however he is a man of undoubted left wing principles and would re install many of the good values we have lost after many years of right wing rule if we vote Labour back into Westminster. Richard Leonard of Scottish Labour is also doing a fine job after being voted in as leader.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

I think you may be overstating your case a tad with regards the nats. Sure they have some right, natuonalist types, but a lot of the recent joiners are very left, and under sturgeon id say they have moved to the left.

But serious question... if you are against austerity, what would your solution be to the debt and deficit problem?

Given an indy scotland would begin with circa 10%of the uks debt, plus the enornous one off costs of starting on our own, plus a commitment to increase public spending plus an existing deficit of circa 9%, and a new currency to support, and huge capital flight an economic shock to get through, i think its a very pertinent question.

[Tornadoes70]

I think you may be overstating your case a tad with regards the nats. Sure they have some right, natuonalist types, but a lot of the recent joiners are very left, and under sturgeon id say they have moved to the left.

But serious question... if you are against austerity, what would your solution be to the debt and deficit problem?

Given an indy scotland would begin with circa 10%of the uks debt, plus the enornous one off costs of starting on our own, plus a commitment to increase public spending plus an existing deficit of circa 9%, and a new currency to support, and huge capital flight an economic shock to get through, i think its a very pertinent question.

Vote Jeremy Corbyn in at Westminster and Scottish Labour into Holyrood as part of the UK of which is a diverse country made up of folk from many nations instead of the bitter scots nats breakaway proposals that would bankrupt Scotland into meltdown prior to having to beg the EU to allow us to join as a small and dominated region of the EU.

That's the answer.

The reality of the nats getting their wish hardly bears thinking about. You want chaos and poverty by all means continue on arguing for the scots nats but not for me.

I'll be voting for the real socialists in the form of Labour at both Westminster and Holyrood who always seek to care for the working folk, low incomes, those on benefits, sick and disabled, the nhs etc etc etc.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

[CropleyWasGod]

Vote Jeremy Corbyn in at Westminster and Scottish Labour into Holyrood as part of the UK of which is a diverse country made up of folk from many nations instead of the bitter scots nats breakaway proposals that would bankrupt Scotland into meltdown prior to having to beg the EU to allow us to join as a small and dominated region of the EU.

That's the answer.

The reality of the nats getting their wish hardly bears thinking about. You want chaos and poverty by all means continue on arguing for the scots nats but not for me.

I'll be voting for the real socialists in the form of Labour at both Westminster and Holyrood who always seek to care for the working folk, low incomes, those on benefits, sick and disabled, the nhs etc etc etc.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

If they are "real socialists" at Westminster, why are they supporting Brexit? How does that fit in with the "no-borders" tenet of pure socialism?

[JeMeSouviens]

Vote Jeremy Corbyn in at Westminster and Scottish Labour into Holyrood as part of the UK of which is a diverse country made up of folk from many nations instead of the bitter scots nats breakaway proposals that would bankrupt Scotland into meltdown prior to having to beg the EU to allow us to join as a small and dominated region of the EU.

That's the answer.

The reality of the nats getting their wish hardly bears thinking about. You want chaos and poverty by all means continue on arguing for the scots nats but not for me.

I'll be voting for the real socialists in the form of Labour at both Westminster and Holyrood who always seek to care for the working folk, low incomes, those on benefits, sick and disabled, the nhs etc etc etc.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

Even with a government as bad as May's, the Tories are holding a comfortable lead over Corbyn. I just can't see how he ever gets elected in England. A revival in Scotland hardly helps since any seat they win is so unlikely to be a Tory one.

The choice now is between the guaranteed managed decline of North Britain relying on subsidy from a fading post-Brexit UK, or a desperate lunge for the Indy lifebelt and hope we don't drown trying to get clear of the wreckage. Happy days. :wink:

[JeMeSouviens]

The expression 'Tartan Tories' doesn't even begin to describe a vast number of the snp membership. They're more right wing nasty nationalist and uber presbytarian than the puritans themselves in my opinion of course and would impose a post breakaway austerity never felt before. It would impact most on those on low incomes, sick and disabled and those on benefits as the government finances would be in meltdown and may or may not recover in due course over a period of many years thereafter. That may a price worth paying for those who are quite fanatical regarding independence. Labour are the only true left wing party who will fight against austerity whether its against tory cuts or in the huge if the nationalists ever get their way and the financial meltdown that would undoubtedly occur.

Jeremy Corbyn may have some faults in his make up however he is a man of undoubted left wing principles and would re install many of the good values we have lost after many years of right wing rule if we vote Labour back into Westminster. Richard Leonard of Scottish Labour is also doing a fine job after being voted in as leader.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

Hyperbole much? :rolleyes:

[snooky]

Vote Jeremy Corbyn in at Westminster and Scottish Labour into Holyrood as part of the UK of which is a diverse country made up of folk from many nations instead of the bitter scots nats breakaway proposals that would bankrupt Scotland into meltdown prior to having to beg the EU to allow us to join as a small and dominated region of the EU.

That's the answer.

The reality of the nats getting their wish hardly bears thinking about. You want chaos and poverty by all means continue on arguing for the scots nats but not for me.

I'll be voting for the real socialists in the form of Labour at both Westminster and Holyrood who always seek to care for the working folk, low incomes, those on benefits, sick and disabled, the nhs etc etc etc.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

Interesting choice of words as I've always found the attitude of Scottish Labour and it's voters to be the most bitter of all.
We've little chance of getting a left sided government in the UK in the foreseeable future IMO,, as the Labour Party is as weak as it has ever been. If you want a guaranteed leftish government then get independence first. We can then drop the dreaded SNP like a hot tattie and vote in the government most of us want.

[ronaldo7]

Vote Jeremy Corbyn in at Westminster and Scottish Labour into Holyrood as part of the UK of which is a diverse country made up of folk from many nations instead of the bitter scots nats breakaway proposals that would bankrupt Scotland into meltdown prior to having to beg the EU to allow us to join as a small and dominated region of the EU.

That's the answer.

The reality of the nats getting their wish hardly bears thinking about. You want chaos and poverty by all means continue on arguing for the scots nats but not for me.

I'll be voting for the real socialists in the form of Labour at both Westminster and Holyrood who always seek to care for the working folk, low incomes, those on benefits, sick and disabled, the nhs etc etc etc.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

Those real socialists, who are in power in, Wales? Is that the ones you speak of, the ones who can't even mitigate the bedroom tax fully, whilst those nasty nats in, Scotland, do.

Those socialists who've just given their railways away to the private sector, whilst arguing for a public bid in Scotland ( which will be delivered by those nasty nats)

Anyway, let's get back on track...the growth Commission, good, bad, or indifferent?

[JeMeSouviens]

Once it's debated at the assemblies maybe someone can explain how we have gone from £600 better off in 2014 to £4,100 better off in 2018 if we vote yes.

I am guessing it's all down to economic growth. Might be hard when another country controls your interest rates though.

I have already but will try again.

The report does not say that anybody will be £4100 better off.*

The report does say that Scotland's GDP per capita (economic output divided by population size) lags the median figure of a group of comparable small countries by £4100.

Comprende?



* Idiotic press headlines notwithstanding.

[johnbc70]

I have already but will try again.

The report does not say that anybody will be £4100 better off.*

The report does say that Scotland's GDP per capita (economic output divided by population size) lags the median figure of a group of comparable small countries by £4100.

Comprende?



* Idiotic press headlines notwithstanding.

Well I guess I fell into the press trap, but I won't be alone which suggests the SNP have failed to get across their message.

[CropleyWasGod]

Well I guess I fell into the press trap, but I won't be alone which suggests the SNP have failed to get across their message.

Their message for me is that this is a discussion document, to form the basis of a renewed debate. Not something to be dismissed or championed in the space of a few days.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Vote Jeremy Corbyn in at Westminster and Scottish Labour into Holyrood as part of the UK of which is a diverse country made up of folk from many nations instead of the bitter scots nats breakaway proposals that would bankrupt Scotland into meltdown prior to having to beg the EU to allow us to join as a small and dominated region of the EU.

That's the answer.

The reality of the nats getting their wish hardly bears thinking about. You want chaos and poverty by all means continue on arguing for the scots nats but not for me.

I'll be voting for the real socialists in the form of Labour at both Westminster and Holyrood who always seek to care for the working folk, low incomes, those on benefits, sick and disabled, the nhs etc etc etc.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

Thats not really an answer, but thanks anyway.

[G B Young]

The expression 'Tartan Tories' doesn't even begin to describe a vast number of the snp membership. They're more right wing nasty nationalist and uber presbytarian than the puritans themselves in my opinion of course and would impose a post breakaway austerity never felt before. It would impact most on those on low incomes, sick and disabled and those on benefits as the government finances would be in meltdown and may or may not recover in due course over a period of many years thereafter. That may a price worth paying for those who are quite fanatical regarding independence. Labour are the only true left wing party who will fight against austerity whether its against tory cuts or in the huge if the nationalists ever get their way and the financial meltdown that would undoubtedly occur.

Jeremy Corbyn may have some faults in his make up however he is a man of undoubted left wing principles and would re install many of the good values we have lost after many years of right wing rule if we vote Labour back into Westminster. Richard Leonard of Scottish Labour is also doing a fine job after being voted in as leader.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

Corbyn is a bitter, narrow-minded t**t with next to no awareness of or interest in Scotland. He's surrounded by vile (John McDonnell), incompetent (Dianne Abbott) and sycophantic cronies who will hopefully never get near No 10. The fact that Labour lags behind a calamity-ridden Conservative party in the polls sums up their inability to embrace anything other than a reactionary brand of socialism that will only ever appeal to a minority of the electorate. I'd vote for independence rather than be governed by this clown and that is something I thought I'd never say when given the choice of a UK Labour governnent or independence.

I'm also unaware of any 'fine' things Richard Leonard has done thus far. In fact I still have to think for moment when recalling who the Scottish Labour leader actually is. As only the third largest party in terms of MSPs and MPs (who could possibly have forecast that just a few years back?!) they remain a near irrelevance.

[johnbc70]

Their message for me is that this is a discussion document, to form the basis of a renewed debate. Not something to be dismissed or championed in the space of a few days.

So when do we get the answers rather than the theoretical questions? Debating suggests there is a process in place, what I would expect is that there is debate and then a decision is made and implemented.

So in the case of the currency are we expecting the debate to produce a plan at the end of the process?

[CropleyWasGod]

So when do we get the answers rather than the theoretical questions? Debating suggests there is a process in place, what I would expect is that there is debate and then a decision is made and implemented.

So in the case of the currency are we expecting the debate to produce a plan at the end of the process?

I'd say it's up to interested parties from all sides to contribute. And, yes, at the end of that process, there will be a plan, on which the electorate can take a view.

It's normally the case, in situations like this, that the floor is thrown open to contributions to be made in appropriate fora. I don't see that this process will be any different, and I expect it has already started.

The SG's consultation process is very electorate-friendly; members of the public are encouraged to take part. Feel free to do so. :greengrin

[Mibbes Aye]

If they are "real socialists" at Westminster, why are they supporting Brexit? How does that fit in with the "no-borders" tenet of pure socialism?

I agree with your question. I suspect the answer lies in the fact that for the Bennite rump on the left in Labour, there has always been a mistrust of the EEC and the EU.

In part it is to do with a historical fear of loss of national sovereignty, risking a loss of power to renationalise industries and the like. This overlaps with a fear that the principles of free trade risk being exploitative of workers.

In previous decades Labour supporters were probably more anti-Europe than Tories, in relative terms.

Thatcherism coming into conflict with Delors and the social agenda changed all that and flipped party schisms on Europe.

[Moulin Yarns]

I want to take you on a journey to a small, self governing (most devolved powers in the world) nation with a population of 50,000, is about the size of the Shetland Ilsandsand which is not part of the EU, but is part of the Shengen area and has an unemployment rate of around 3.2%. GDP $3.09 billion (per capita $61,325). It has one downside in that i depends largely on a single industry.

This nation has universal broadband speeds of 100mB/s (we can only wish!)

Where is this successful little nation?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qinWJqgGMw

[Tornadoes70]

At the moment we are part of the UK a relatively small island that punches way above its weight so to speak with a very good standard of living, law and order, national security, employment, businesses big and small, secure currency, the NHS, decent benefit system for the unemployed, sick and disabled etc etc etc.

We live in a UK and Commonwealth that's in the Premier League around the world and and it inhabitants are of a very diverse and of mostly welcoming nature. i love being able to travel the UK as a UK citizen and have been treated very well when travelling around its parts.

If folk want to trade all this in and much more to live in a nationalistic very small country mostly solely for the tartan 'braveheart' culture then so be it but just think about what you'd be giving up.

If Labour could be voted back in at both Westminster and Holyrood even better.

You don't have to be a tartan 'braveheart' just because you're a Hi bee albeit you'd never think so as they tend to monopolise the debate on here.

As for percentages and the other nonsense numbers that get banded around by some pied pipers as a post breakaway the count would be how many jobs would be lost and which companies were staying and which were leaving the nationalist state with either the nats in charge or a power vacuum that would be very changeable and trying to repair the meltdown that would inevitably occur and last for many years thereafter.

We can have a socialist government in charge of the UK by ensuring Labour succeed wherever possible.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

[Hibrandenburg]

At the moment we are part of the UK a relatively small island that punches way above its weight so to speak with a very good standard of living, law and order, national security, employment, businesses big and small, secure currency, the NHS, decent benefit system for the unemployed, sick and disabled etc etc etc.

We live in a UK and Commonwealth that's in the Premier League around the world and and it inhabitants are of a very diverse and of mostly welcoming nature. i love being able to travel the UK as a UK citizen and have been treated very well when travelling around its parts.

If folk want to trade all this in and much more to live in a nationalistic very small country mostly solely for the tartan 'braveheart' culture then so be it but just think about what you'd be giving up.

If Labour could be voted back in at both Westminster and Holyrood even better.

You don't have to be a tartan 'braveheart' just because you're a Hi bee albeit you'd never think so as they tend to monopolise the debate on here.

As for percentages and the other nonsense numbers that get banded around by some pied pipers as a post breakaway the count would be how many jobs would be lost and which companies were staying and which were leaving the nationalist state with either the nats in charge or a power vacuum that would be very changeable and trying to repair the meltdown that would inevitably occur and last for many years thereafter.

We can have a socialist government in charge of the UK by ensuring Labour succeed wherever possible.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

Tartan "Braveheart"! Oh behave.

[PeeJay]

At the moment we are part of the UK a relatively small island that punches way above its weight so to speak with a very good standard of living, law and order, national security, employment, businesses big and small, secure currency, the NHS, decent benefit system for the unemployed, sick and disabled etc etc etc.

We live in a UK and Commonwealth that's in the Premier League around the world and and it inhabitants are of a very diverse and of mostly welcoming nature. i love being able to travel the UK as a UK citizen and have been treated very well when travelling around its parts.



Find it difficult to believe that you fail to mention the EU in your post - :confused:

[CropleyWasGod]

At the moment we are part of the UK a relatively small island that punches way above its weight so to speak with a very good standard of living, law and order, national security, employment, businesses big and small, secure currency, the NHS, decent benefit system for the unemployed, sick and disabled etc etc etc.

We live in a UK and Commonwealth that's in the Premier League around the world and and it inhabitants are of a very diverse and of mostly welcoming nature. i love being able to travel the UK as a UK citizen and have been treated very well when travelling around its parts.

If folk want to trade all this in and much more to live in a nationalistic very small country mostly solely for the tartan 'braveheart' culture then so be it but just think about what you'd be giving up.

If Labour could be voted back in at both Westminster and Holyrood even better.

You don't have to be a tartan 'braveheart' just because you're a Hi bee albeit you'd never think so as they tend to monopolise the debate on here.

As for percentages and the other nonsense numbers that get banded around by some pied pipers as a post breakaway the count would be how many jobs would be lost and which companies were staying and which were leaving the nationalist state with either the nats in charge or a power vacuum that would be very changeable and trying to repair the meltdown that would inevitably occur and last for many years thereafter.

We can have a socialist government in charge of the UK by ensuring Labour succeed wherever possible.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

Apart from all that, what did you think of the Growth Commission Report? :greengrin

(as an aside...the UK an island? Are you writing off Northern Ireland as a lost cause, the way some Tories are?)

[ronaldo7]

At the moment we are part of the UK a relatively small island that punches way above its weight so to speak with a very good standard of living, law and order, national security, employment, businesses big and small, secure currency, the NHS, decent benefit system for the unemployed, sick and disabled etc etc etc.

We live in a UK and Commonwealth that's in the Premier League around the world and and it inhabitants are of a very diverse and of mostly welcoming nature. i love being able to travel the UK as a UK citizen and have been treated very well when travelling around its parts.

If folk want to trade all this in and much more to live in a nationalistic very small country mostly solely for the tartan 'braveheart' culture then so be it but just think about what you'd be giving up.

If Labour could be voted back in at both Westminster and Holyrood even better.

You don't have to be a tartan 'braveheart' just because you're a Hi bee albeit you'd never think so as they tend to monopolise the debate on here.

As for percentages and the other nonsense numbers that get banded around by some pied pipers as a post breakaway the count would be how many jobs would be lost and which companies were staying and which were leaving the nationalist state with either the nats in charge or a power vacuum that would be very changeable and trying to repair the meltdown that would inevitably occur and last for many years thereafter.

We can have a socialist government in charge of the UK by ensuring Labour succeed wherever possible.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

I thought it'd stumbled onto the Brexit thread. 🇬🇧

[Jack]

At the moment we are part of the UK a relatively small island that punches way above its weight so to speak with a very good standard of living, law and order, national security, employment, businesses big and small, secure currency, the NHS, decent benefit system for the unemployed, sick and disabled etc etc etc.

We live in a UK and Commonwealth that's in the Premier League around the world and and it inhabitants are of a very diverse and of mostly welcoming nature. i love being able to travel the UK as a UK citizen and have been treated very well when travelling around its parts.

If folk want to trade all this in and much more to live in a nationalistic very small country mostly solely for the tartan 'braveheart' culture then so be it but just think about what you'd be giving up.

If Labour could be voted back in at both Westminster and Holyrood even better.

You don't have to be a tartan 'braveheart' just because you're a Hi bee albeit you'd never think so as they tend to monopolise the debate on here.

As for percentages and the other nonsense numbers that get banded around by some pied pipers as a post breakaway the count would be how many jobs would be lost and which companies were staying and which were leaving the nationalist state with either the nats in charge or a power vacuum that would be very changeable and trying to repair the meltdown that would inevitably occur and last for many years thereafter.

We can have a socialist government in charge of the UK by ensuring Labour succeed wherever possible.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

Great Britain is one of the largest defined islands in the world, 8th largest in fact.

[JeMeSouviens]

At the moment we are part of the UK a relatively small island that punches way above its weight so to speak with a very good standard of living, law and order, national security, employment, businesses big and small, secure currency, the NHS, decent benefit system for the unemployed, sick and disabled etc etc etc.

We live in a UK and Commonwealth that's in the Premier League around the world and and it inhabitants are of a very diverse and of mostly welcoming nature. i love being able to travel the UK as a UK citizen and have been treated very well when travelling around its parts.

If folk want to trade all this in and much more to live in a nationalistic very small country mostly solely for the tartan 'braveheart' culture then so be it but just think about what you'd be giving up.

If Labour could be voted back in at both Westminster and Holyrood even better.

You don't have to be a tartan 'braveheart' just because you're a Hi bee albeit you'd never think so as they tend to monopolise the debate on here.

As for percentages and the other nonsense numbers that get banded around by some pied pipers as a post breakaway the count would be how many jobs would be lost and which companies were staying and which were leaving the nationalist state with either the nats in charge or a power vacuum that would be very changeable and trying to repair the meltdown that would inevitably occur and last for many years thereafter.

We can have a socialist government in charge of the UK by ensuring Labour succeed wherever possible.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

1. Assuming you actually meant "Great Britain" as the island - it's ******g massive, one of the world's top 10 islands by size.
2. The UK has a middling standard of living compared to other EU countries and consistently ranks low in "happiness" studies and so on. Imo, Brexit is going to make this far worse over the next few decades.
3. The commonwealth is "premier league" in what way exactly?
4. I want to live in modern, outward looking European country, not one run by a bunch of backward looking xenophobes who want to take us back decades to when they think they "ruled the waves". :rolleyes:
5. The Tories have been in power for 2/3 of my lifetime. They are ahead in UK polls again and Corbyn & co are running such a shambolic opposition that's not going to change any time soon.

Good to see you're keeping an open mind on independence though. :wink:

[IGRIGI]

I don't think my will to live would survive another campaign filled with "punching above our weight" catchphrases.

[Slavers]

1. Assuming you actually meant "Great Britain" as the island - it's ******g massive, one of the world's top 10 islands by size.
2. The UK has a middling standard of living compared to other EU countries and consistently ranks low in "happiness" studies and so on. Imo, Brexit is going to make this far worse over the next few decades.
3. The commonwealth is "premier league" in what way exactly?
4. I want to live in modern, outward looking European country, not one run by a bunch of backward looking xenophobes who want to take us back decades to when they think they "ruled the waves". :rolleyes:
5. The Tories have been in power for 2/3 of my lifetime. They are ahead in UK polls again and Corbyn & co are running such a shambolic opposition that's not going to change any time soon.

Good to see you're keeping an open mind on independence though. :wink:

Do you have an open mind about remaining in the UK? It seems your mind is closed to that idea.

[JeMeSouviens]

Do you have an open mind about remaining in the UK? It seems your mind is closed to that idea.

The difference is I have never claimed to.

[Hibrandenburg]

Do you have an open mind about remaining in the UK? It seems your mind is closed to that idea.

Why would we need to keep an open mind about life in the UK, we've spent our lives experiencing what it's like?

[Tornadoes70]

Do you have an open mind about remaining in the UK? It seems your mind is closed to that idea.

I'm really pleased that there are other hibs supporters like myself who care deeply about Scotland and whom think our country is far better off within the UK and oppose the anarchist crash and burn Scotland policy of the nationalists. The nationalists would create deep division and chaos if they win their day. Thankfully i don't think they ever will as there are many like us including Hibs supporters who believe in a diverse UK that's democratic whichever party wins albeit hopefully its a socialist one.

It'd be great to hear more voices such as ours but I think many are put off debating in case the nationalists get on their case in my opinion.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

[Tornadoes70]

Why would we need to keep an open mind about life in the UK, we've spent our lives experiencing what it's like?

And instead of trying to make it better you would support cutting the north off from the rest of it yes?

Mon the Cabbage!!!

[CropleyWasGod]

I'm really pleased that there are other hibs supporters like myself who care deeply about Scotland and whom think our country is far better off within the UK and oppose the anarchist crash and burn Scotland policy of the nationalists. The nationalists would create deep division and chaos if they win their day. Thankfully i don't think they ever will as there are many like us including Hibs supporters who believe in a diverse UK that's democratic whichever party wins albeit hopefully its a socialist one.

It'd be great to hear more voices such as ours but I think many are put off debating in case the nationalists get on their case in my opinion.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

What do you think of the Growth Commission Report? :greengrin

[Tornadoes70]

What do you think of the Growth Commission Report? :greengrin

Cross examination questions are best reserved for a court of law and not political debates. Certainly feel free to rubbish my points or make your own but don't cross examine as it doesn't make for good honest debate.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

[danhibees1875]

I'm really pleased that there are other hibs supporters like myself who care deeply about Scotland and whom think our country is far better off within the UK and oppose the anarchist crash and burn Scotland policy of the nationalists. The nationalists would create deep division and chaos if they win their day. Thankfully i don't think they ever will as there are many like us including Hibs supporters who believe in a diverse UK that's democratic whichever party wins albeit hopefully its a socialist one.

It'd be great to hear more voices such as ours but I think many are put off debating in case the nationalists get on their case in my opinion.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

It's worth noting that people on both side of the debate care deeply about Scotland - they just have different ideas on how to get the best out of country. I don't think either side should start delving into the notion that they're opinion is better/smarter/in any way indicative of being more Scottish - a personal gripe of mine when in relation to any political opinion. (I'm not necessarily saying that's how you meant your comment to come across btw!)

I also don't think many are put off debating the case, I think you just happen to be in a place where most people support independence - there were plenty of polls done where poeple didn't need to contribute more than a tick on here that showed the majority favoured it. That's a theme you'll see repeated across the messageboards of pretty much any football club (or I did, when I looked briefly in 2014) - with one obvious exception - and is indicative of the demographic make-up of football fans and independence supporters.

[CropleyWasGod]

Cross examination questions are best reserved for a court of law and not political debates. Certainly feel free to rubbish my points or make your own but don't cross examine as it doesn't make for good honest debate.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

It's hardly "cross-examination". :greengrin

The thread is about the Growth Commission Report. It's been hijacked, sadly, by the wider independence debate. I'm trying to get it back on track.

[Geo_1875]

And instead of trying to make it better you would support cutting the north off from the rest of it yes?

Mon the Cabbage!!!

We can make the UK better by leaving it and showing what remains what can be achieved as an independent outward looking nation.

[Tornadoes70]

It's worth noting that people on both side of the debate care deeply about Scotland - they just have different ideas on how to get the best out of country. I don't think either side should start delving into the notion that they're opinion is better/smarter/in any way indicative of being more Scottish - a personal gripe of mine when in relation to any political opinion. (I'm not necessarily saying that's how you meant your comment to come across btw!)

I also don't think many are put off debating the case, I think you just happen to be in a place where most people support independence - there were plenty of polls done where poeple didn't need to contribute more than a tick on here that showed the majority favoured it. That's a theme you'll see repeated across the messageboards of pretty much any football club (or I did, when I looked briefly in 2014) - with one obvious exception - and is indicative of the demographic make-up of football fans and independence supporters.

Very fair points well put.

I'm well aware I'm probably in the minority in here on making a case for Scotland remaining within the UK however there should be room for voices of differing and opposing viewpoints. I believe a socialist UK government when voted back in can deliver better for all of us under a progressive caring socialist government without Scotland breaking off from it.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

[danhibees1875]

Very fair points well put.

I'm well aware I'm probably in the minority in here on making a case for Scotland remaining within the UK however there should be room for voices of differing and opposing viewpoints. I believe a socialist UK government when voted back in can deliver better for all of us under a progressive caring socialist government without Scotland breaking off from it.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

There is 100% room for you to voice your opinions. :agree:

For what it's worth, I probably agree with your view now, having previously leaned towards independence. I'd rather see us get on with it as things are and make a better go of making Scottish and UK governments work for us as they stand - at least just now.

[The Modfather]

Very fair points well put.

I'm well aware I'm probably in the minority in here on making a case for Scotland remaining within the UK however there should be room for voices of differing and opposing viewpoints. I believe a socialist UK government when voted back in can deliver better for all of us under a progressive caring socialist government without Scotland breaking off from it.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

There's room for all viewpoints. You'd probably get a better debate if you were more constructive and stopped being so brash and bullish with language like "tartan bravehearts" and "anarchist crash and burn Scotland policy of the nationalists"

[Slavers]

The difference is I have never claimed to.

Ok fair enough at least your honest about having the independence blinkers on. It's a bit much to ask others to keep an open mind when your mind is already made up.

[Geo_1875]

Ok fair enough at least your honest about having the independence blinkers on. It's a bit much to ask others to keep an open mind when your mind is already made up.

So as a proponent of the Union how do you intend to convince a Scottish Nationalist that the status quo is the way to go forward?

Surely the point is that things ain't that great and change is necessary if we're going to have a fair and compassionate society.

Or is that not the aim of Labour any more?

[snooky]

There is 100% room for you to voice your opinions. :agree:

For what it's worth, I probably agree with your view now, having previously leaned towards independence. I'd rather see us get on with it as things are and make a better go of making Scottish and UK governments work for us as they stand - at least just now.
Good luck with that part. :coffee:

[Slavers]

So as a proponent of the Union how do you intend to convince a Scottish Nationalist that the status quo is the way to go forward?

Surely the point is that things ain't that great and change is necessary if we're going to have a fair and compassionate society.

Or is that not the aim of Labour any more?

I do not think the status quo is so terrible and compared to the rest of the world we do pretty well. Granted the EU is still being propped up by quantitative easing and the UK is a net contributor to the EU, take those two away and the EU is in a dire situation and not to mention Italy's dept problem.

The UK gives Scotland security in tough times like the last financial crisis, we never had the levels of youth unemployment that still rampant throughout the EU.

The whole EU dictatorship stinks - full of career politicians that care little for democracy or the people's opinions, they think they know best and Nicola Sturgeon will sell Scotland out to George Soros and the EU.

The UK is fair and compassionate society, its not the racist xenophobic backward society some are trying to claim, the UK has been welcoming and open society for decades.

Why is Brexit bad, yet Independence good?

Why SNP Austerity good, yet Tory Austerity bad?

[johnbc70]

So as a proponent of the Union how do you intend to convince a Scottish Nationalist that the status quo is the way to go forward?

Surely the point is that things ain't that great and change is necessary if we're going to have a fair and compassionate society.

Or is that not the aim of Labour any more?

Who says things aren't that great? That's your own opinion and perspective which of course your entirely entitled to have, but you can't assume everyone thinks the same as you. Maybe a lot of people are perfectly happy and don't see the need to change anything?

[Mibbes Aye]

Who says things aren't that great? That's your own opinion and perspective which of course your entirely entitled to have, but you can't assume everyone thinks the same as you. Maybe a lot of people are perfectly happy and don't see the need to change anything?

Or even that people can see some things need to change but reject nationalism as a folly and indulgence that detracts from the real issues we need to address as a society.

[Hibrandenburg]

And instead of trying to make it better you would support cutting the north off from the rest of it yes?

Mon the Cabbage!!!

We've been trying that for centuries. "Cutting the north off from the rest of it", you make it sound like we're gonna sail off to the middle of the Atlantic. We'll still be neighbours with "The rest of it", we'll still have family and friends there, they'll visit us and we'll visit them and life will go on but we'll determine how it does go on.

[IGRIGI]

I've yet to hear any sort of economic plan or strategy from unionists.

All I hear are cringetastic catchphrases like "punching above our weight" and 5-1 esque comfort blankets like "strength and security".

Just have the balls to come out and state that you prefer living with the idea and comfort of scrounging off of England.

[johnbc70]

I've yet to hear any sort of economic plan or strategy from unionists.

All I hear are cringetastic catchphrases like "punching above our weight" and 5-1 esque comfort blankets like "strength and security".

Just have the balls to come out and state that you prefer living with the idea and comfort of scrounging off of England.

Your doing the Unionist job for them, do you really think that's the way to engage with people who dare to have a different opinion. Keep it up as you will alienate the very people you need to convince.

[Tornadoes70]

There is 100% room for you to voice your opinions. :agree:

For what it's worth, I probably agree with your view now, having previously leaned towards independence. I'd rather see us get on with it as things are and make a better go of making Scottish and UK governments work for us as they stand - at least just now.

:aok:

Mon the Cabbage!!!

[RyeSloan]

I've yet to hear any sort of economic plan or strategy from unionists.

All I hear are cringetastic catchphrases like "punching above our weight" and 5-1 esque comfort blankets like "strength and security".

Just have the balls to come out and state that you prefer living with the idea and comfort of scrounging off of England.

Hmm. It’s what political and monetary unions do..they redistribute across the union. Scrounging it’s not and see the Euro for the problems it causes when it’s not done.

Greece...forced into a decade long decline

Italy (a true Euro heavyweight) stuck in a similar, if not quite as obviously brutal, long decline and now on the brink of a popularist, Eurosceptic, EU rule busting government

The ECB continually printing money to completely rig the market in Euro govt bonds and therefore falsely lowering the price of borrowing of the likes of Spain, Portugal and Italy (and quite a few others) to desperately attempt to make up for the currencies and the EU’s fundamental flaws.


Unless Scotland becomes the richest part of the U.K. (and not even the most fervent of Indy supporters would seriously suggest Scotland Independent or not, will match a super city like London in terms of output) then there should always be a subsidy paid to it by those parts that currently are. It’s a fundamental part of the reason for being in a currency union.

It was therefore interesting to see that the growth report suggested large payments to rUK at the same time as entering an INformal currency union with no such redistribution.

And approach which personally wouldn’t have immediately sprung to my mind when considering a thesis on which to build a new economic future.

But then again neither would I have dreamt up some random growth rates in a pointless statistic and stuck that in my exec summary...

[Tornadoes70]

We've been trying that for centuries. "Cutting the north off from the rest of it", you make it sound like we're gonna sail off to the middle of the Atlantic. We'll still be neighbours with "The rest of it", we'll still have family and friends there, they'll visit us and we'll visit them and life will go on but we'll determine how it does go on.

It would be entirely different as we'd no longer have preferential treatment from our partner countries south of Gretna. They could put up a hard border with us if they so desired and make it extremely difficult for us as per transport links, travel, business etc etc etc and there's not a thing we could about it and that's the reality. It could be the way you said but very unlikely in my opinion that things would ever be the same again in regards to the way we'd be regarded by the rest of the UK. It would be very probably a very acrimonious break up.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

[JeMeSouviens]

Hmm. It’s what political and monetary unions do..they redistribute across the union. Scrounging it’s not and see the Euro for the problems it causes when it’s not done.

Greece...forced into a decade long decline

Italy (a true Euro heavyweight) stuck in a similar, if not quite as obviously brutal, long decline and now on the brink of a popularist, Eurosceptic, EU rule busting government

The ECB continually printing money to completely rig the market in Euro govt bonds and therefore falsely lowering the price of borrowing of the likes of Spain, Portugal and Italy (and quite a few others) to desperately attempt to make up for the currencies and the EU’s fundamental flaws.


Unless Scotland becomes the richest part of the U.K. (and not even the most fervent of Indy supporters would seriously suggest Scotland Independent or not, will match a super city like London in terms of output) then there should always be a subsidy paid to it by those parts that currently are. It’s a fundamental part of the reason for being in a currency union.

It was therefore interesting to see that the growth report suggested large payments to rUK at the same time as entering an INformal currency union with no such redistribution.

And approach which personally wouldn’t have immediately sprung to my mind when considering a thesis on which to build a new economic future.

But then again neither would I have dreamt up some random growth rates in a pointless statistic and stuck that in my exec summary...

We’re not in a currency union, we’re a region of a unitary state.

We get a disproportionate amount of public spending vs similar regions elsewhere in UK. The UK gov daren’t scrap Barnett until the threat of Indy subsides.

[JeMeSouviens]

It would be entirely different as we'd no longer have preferential treatment from our partner countries south of Gretna. They could put up a hard border with us if they so desired and make it extremely difficult for us as per transport links, travel, business etc etc etc and there's not a thing we could about it and that's the reality. It could be the way you said but very unlikely in my opinion that things would ever be the same again in regards to the way we'd be regarded by the rest of the UK. It would be very probably a very acrimonious break up.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

You don’t get much more acrimonious break ups than the UK and Ireland yet the relationship now is both friendly and co-operative. What makes you think rUK would single us out for vindictiveness?

[Tornadoes70]

You don’t get much more acrimonious break ups than the UK and Ireland yet the relationship now is both friendly and co-operative. What makes you think rUK would single us out for vindictiveness?

Probably because our country would have voted to exit out of a 300 year or so union with our partner countries within the UK whereby ending any preferential treatment and severing all ties with them. It seems bound to stoke up resentment and acrimony when you sever ties with folk especially after so many years of building links and favorable agreements. It seems fairly obvious to me, its the way of the world to treat allies and friends differently and we would no longer be allies nor friends as a clean break would be sought in my opinion.

What we really need is a break from the snp and its divisiveness for a period of time to allow a chance for a socialist Labour government to come in and seek to repair the damage done from both the tories and the snp and allow both UK and the Scottish Governments to work together and make things socially better for all of us.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

[RyeSloan]

We’re not in a currency union, we’re a region of a unitary state.

We get a disproportionate amount of public spending vs similar regions elsewhere in UK. The UK gov daren’t scrap Barnett until the threat of Indy subsides.

Semantics ;-)

[JeMeSouviens]

Probably because our country would have voted to exit out of a 300 year or so union with our partner countries within the UK whereby ending any preferential treatment and severing all ties with them. It seems bound to stoke up resentment and acrimony when you sever ties with folk especially after so many years of building links and favorable agreements. It seems fairly obvious to me, its the way of the world to treat allies and friends differently and we would no longer be allies nor friends as a clean break would be sought in my opinion.

What we really need is a break from the snp and its divisiveness for a period of time to allow a chance for a socialist Labour government to come in and seek to repair the damage done from both the tories and the snp and allow both UK and the Scottish Governments to work together and make things socially better for all of us.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

You totally avoided the question. Ireland was run from England for 800 years and fought a war to get out of the UK. So why would Scotland be treated worse?

[JeMeSouviens]

Semantics ;-)

Important clarification. :greengrin

[Tornadoes70]

You totally avoided the question. Ireland was run from England for 800 years and fought a war to get out of the UK. So why would Scotland be treated worse?

I didn't deliberately avoid a question. I have just about zero knowledge of Irish politics and the history you're referring to. I also put in quite simplistic terms that Scotland would no longer have preferential treatment nor any agreements in place with the rest of the UK after having voted to quit the UK and it would very probably in my opinion be a hostile and acrimonious breaking apart from it. If you think differently why don't you state your case in point?


Mon the Cabbage!!!

[Hibrandenburg]

It would be entirely different as we'd no longer have preferential treatment from our partner countries south of Gretna. They could put up a hard border with us if they so desired and make it extremely difficult for us as per transport links, travel, business etc etc etc and there's not a thing we could about it and that's the reality. It could be the way you said but very unlikely in my opinion that things would ever be the same again in regards to the way we'd be regarded by the rest of the UK. It would be very probably a very acrimonious break up.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

Like they did with Ireland?

[snooky]

Semantics ;-)

Semantcs, surely?

[Tornadoes70]

Like they did with Ireland?

Thought the discussion was about Scotland?

Mon the Cabbage!!!

[grunt]

I didn't deliberately avoid a question. I have just about zero knowledge of Irish politics and the history you're referring to. I also put in quite simplistic terms that Scotland would no longer have preferential treatment nor any agreements in place with the rest of the UK after having voted to quit the UK and it would very probably in my opinion be a hostile and acrimonious breaking apart from it. If you think differently why don't you state your case in point?


Mon the Cabbage!!!
So they don't want our oil, electricity, whisky and seafood then?
Ok.

[Just Alf]

Or to export stuff to us in return

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[Tornadoes70]

So they don't want our oil, electricity, whisky and seafood then?
Ok.

They might on the other they might not. The rest of the UK would very likely become very mindful of their own electorate, become ever more right wing and protectionist and put high trade barriers and tariffs on our goods and services if we could agree to a trade deal that is. We'd very likely become a region of the EU in due course anyhow in the event we did breakaway. You can't have it both ways in breaking apart and then expecting similar terms and conditions surely the pro independence voters accept this pretty obvious fact.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

[grunt]

They might on the other they might not. The rest of the UK would very likely become very mindful of their own electorate, become ever more right wing and protectionist and put high trade barriers and tariffs on our goods and services.Well if England becomes "more right wing and protectionist" then I'd say we'd made exactly the right decision by becoming independent. I don't want any of that.



We'd very likely become a region of the EU in due course anyhow in the event we did breakaway. You can't have it both ways in breaking apart and then expecting similar terms and conditions surely the pro independence voters accept this pretty obvious fact.Firstly of course there's no such thing as a "region of the EU" as you well know. And secondly, do you not see the irony in resisting the very arguments which were prevalent on behalf of Brexit? Brexit is all about "having it both ways". So although England can do this, Scotland somehow can't?

[Tornadoes70]

Well if England becomes "more right wing and protectionist" then I'd say we'd made exactly the right decision by becoming independent. I don't want any of that.

It was in the context of post breaking away independence when speculating of the rest of UK becoming more right wing and protectionist with the influence of Scotland no longer being present.


Firstly of course there's no such thing as a "region of the EU" as you well know. And secondly, do you not see the irony in resisting the very arguments which were prevalent on behalf of Brexit? Brexit is all about "having it both ways". So although England can do this, Scotland somehow can't?


We would be completely voiceless and entirely dominated by Germany and France and many other larger countries when becoming as I put it a 'region' of the EU.

There is no irony. It would be entirely the choice of the rest of the UK what positions they adopt post breaking away independence. I may be speculating but it seems very likely to occur the position I set out. We'd no longer be part of the UK and they could do what they wish to in complete absence of us having any position of authority or influence with them, none whatsoever.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

[Slavers]

We would be completely voiceless and entirely dominated by Germany and France and many other larger countries when becoming as I put it a 'region' of the EU.

There is no irony. It would be entirely the choice of the rest of the UK what positions they adopt post breaking away independence. I may be speculating but it seems very likely to occur the position I set out. We'd no longer be part of the UK and they could do what they wish to in complete absence of us having any position of authority or influence with them, none whatsoever.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

Your potentially massively underestimating Nicola Sturgeon's angry face! Or maybe not lol

[grunt]

... they could do what they wish to in complete absence of us having any position of authority or influence with them, none whatsoever.
!!
And how is that any different to the situation we are in now?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[RyeSloan]

Important clarification. :greengrin

[emoji38]

[Tornadoes70]

And how is that any different to the situation we are in now?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The UK has undeniably significantly more bargaining power than Scotland could ever hope to have in isolation when breaking away or becoming independent. That's the reality and seems fairly obvious with respect as I appreciate your sentiment however much I disagree with it for now.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

[grunt]

The UK has undeniably significantly more bargaining power than Scotland could ever hope to have in isolation when breaking away or becoming independent. That's the reality and seems fairly obvious with respect as I appreciate your sentiment however much I disagree with it for now.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

But if Scotland could become an EU member state then we would have the bargaining power of the EU behind us. Look at the strength of little Ireland in discussions over Brexit. Fully supported by the EU.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Just Alf]

We would be completely voiceless and entirely dominated by Germany and France and many other larger countries when becoming as I put it a 'region' of the EU.

There is no irony. It would be entirely the choice of the rest of the UK what positions they adopt post breaking away independence. I may be speculating but it seems very likely to occur the position I set out. We'd no longer be part of the UK and they could do what they wish to in complete absence of us having any position of authority or influence with them, none whatsoever.

Mon the Cabbage!!!
But if Scotland could become an EU member state then we would have the bargaining power of the EU behind us. Look at the strength of little Ireland in discussions over Brexit. Fully supported by the EU.


Sent from my iPad using TapatalkBut then there was that little wee region in Belgium that was able to stop the original USA/EU trade deal that if implemented would have impacted on our NHS etc (TTIP I think?)



Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[JeMeSouviens]

But then there was that little wee region in Belgium that was able to stop the original USA/EU trade deal that if implemented would have impacted on our NHS etc (TTIP I think?)



Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

To be fair, Wallonie is not far off half of Belgium (the French speakers). It was the free trade agreement with Canada they held up, but was eventually signed.

[Tornadoes70]

But if Scotland could become an EU member state then we would have the bargaining power of the EU behind us. Look at the strength of little Ireland in discussions over Brexit. Fully supported by the EU.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I appreciate your sentiment grunt but little Ireland very beautiful it is has very little bearing on my own personal thoughts on my country Scotland's arrangements with very particularly our neighbours we share our island with in England and Wales. I have like many on here relatives and friends in both these countries and have no wish for now to exit our shared formal relationship and agreements as per the UK. I travel to England a lot and happen to like the fact I can travel there as part of the UK and happen to like the friends I have in England. Its a very diverse country now and I have a number of friends there who are very decent folk and are proud to be English and proud to be part of the UK in absence of being little englanders. They were very hurt indeed when the last indy vote took place and felt a sense of betrayal at that time.

The time and grounds are not right yet for independence. Lets get a socialist Labour government into Westminster and see what happens.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

[johnbc70]

Alex Bell - ex SNP advisor and speech writer to Alex Salmond has said the Growth Commission is one long suicide note:

A suicide note is a mix of the self-serving and the raw truth.

The SNP has just written a long one – longer than that notorious 1983 labour manifesto. This note is called the SNP’s Growth Commission.

It contradicts most of the Scottish Government’s White Paper (thanks, civil servants, but we have just left you up the creek) and asks the membership to believe things they have previously been told were unionists lies. (Thanks, suckers).

We get some raw truth.

On Indy, budgets will have to cut further and faster than any Tory or Labour government would dream of – and things might get better only around 2050.

This would be heroic – well, noble at least – if it weren’t for the fact the SNP leadership is simply saying what a lot of of us have said for years. Coming so late to these truths feels like the party has been reluctantly dragged to reality.

Self-serving – utterly – but then, it is an internal party document, not a tablet of stone from the government.

The SNP went to great efforts to pretend it was somehow authoritative, even going so far as to release a statement, six minutes after releasing the report, which “welcomed it” – George Orwell is birling in his grave.

This was to give the illusion it might be another White Paper – it isn’t, it’s an internal party policy.

SNP membership didn’t get a chance to discuss or debate their new policy until it was being trailed across the media and published. Quite why the rest of us should debate a paper the party hasn’t read is not explained.

The document had sent spin doctors into confusion – what was the good news? Journalists were sent a preview with the strict instruction: “no follow-up questions”. A stupid instruction as at the same time journalists were aware that it was being briefed to colleagues.

It smacked of arrogance – the SNP would tell the nation what the story was.

Yet the story was confusing.

The document pointed in favour of a New Zealand-style economy, they said.

Which presumably meant low regulation, no state assistance for farmers and neo-liberal aggression.

The next round of briefings said it would be directing Scotland to a Danish model. Denmark has almost stagnant economic growth, high taxes and lots of state assistance.

Next, we heard Scots would be £4,000 better off after Indy. Who thought it was smart to adopt such a cheap gimmick in the wake of the Brexit £350million promise? Whoever it was, they should probably be fired.

We were the told Scotland would get her own currency, but only after a period of using the pound. In turn, this became we might just use the pound forever as we may never think it’s a good idea to switch.

If we stick with the pound, that would mean restrictions by the Bank of England, thus blocking the Growth Commission’s plans for whizzy tax cuts – and so the real story is that Scotland would incur the cost of independence but never acquire the economic freedom to recover.

None of this weakens the principled case – Scotland could be independent and could survive. That hasn’t been the argument for a long time – the argument lies in the cost.

It’s just that it is all very complicated, will inevitably lead to spending cuts as the new state adjusts to its real income while picking up the bill for new government structures, and may never achieve real economic freedom.

This June, the Nats gather in Aberdeen and my guess is the entire book will be swallowed whole, like square sausage for the Indy soul.

Which rather suggests it didn’t matter what it said, just that it existed.

The real message here is threefold.

The first is to con the nation into thinking the White Paper has been updated, which might make people think another referendum is inevitable.

Second, the leadership is giving loyal Nats some meat on the bone to chew over, and hopefully not notice there isn’t a referendum.

Thirdly, to smuggle in a pro-business agenda for the next Holyrood session.

Wilson, the architect of full fiscal autonomy back in the early days of the millennium, can see Scots have got a lot of powers, and there is no appetite to go further. This Growth Commission gives the party permission to move to the right. It is suicide because there is no referendum and no means to trigger one. Meanwhile the membership have been taken for fools, told all the emotional effort in defending the last argument was pointless.

Labour will pick up disillusioned lefties who now can see that welfare and the NHS won’t be any better after Indy, and the Tories are waiting to welcome back centrist Conservatives who drifted to the Nats. Both will do well. They have been given all the evidence they need to defeat the SNP from, of all places, the SNP.

[Moulin Yarns]

I appreciate your sentiment grunt but little Ireland very beautiful it is has very little bearing on my own personal thoughts on my country Scotland's arrangements with very particularly our neighbours we share our island with in England and Wales. I have like many on here relatives and friends in both these countries and have no wish for now to exit our shared formal relationship and agreements as per the UK. I travel to England a lot and happen to like the fact I can travel there as part of the UK and happen to like the friends I have in England. Its a very diverse country now and I have a number of friends there who are very decent folk and are proud to be English and proud to be part of the UK in absence of being little englanders. They were very hurt indeed when the last indy vote took place and felt a sense of betrayal at that time.

The time and grounds are not right yet for independence. Lets get a socialist Labour government into Westminster and see what happens.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

Everything you have said is just repeating the mantra of Better Together regarding free travel and border post at Gretna.

As for the Labour government you wish for, it kind of flies in the face of your own assertion that the UK will become more right wing. Which is it to be?



They might on the other they might not. The rest of the UK would very likely become very mindful of their own electorate, become ever more right wing and protectionist and put high trade barriers and tariffs on our goods and services if we could agree to a trade deal that is. We'd very likely become a region of the EU in due course anyhow in the event we did breakaway. You can't have it both ways in breaking apart and then expecting similar terms and conditions surely the pro independence voters accept this pretty obvious fact.

[JeMeSouviens]

Alex Bell - ex SNP advisor and speech writer

... has been loudly trashing the SNP and predicting its imminent demise practically daily since the Indyref. Not sure what his agenda is, tbh?

[JeMeSouviens]

Everything you have said is just repeating the mantra of Better Together regarding free travel and border post at Gretna.

As for the Labour government you wish for, it kind of flies in the face of your own assertion that the UK will become more right wing. Which is it to be?

Apparently if the Indy movement in Scotland gives up we'll have a lovely fluffy socialist UK government looking after us with unsurpassed benevolence but woe betide us if it doesn't because then we'll have a UK government that'll make Cruella deVille look like Michaela Strachan, as it grinds our puny new state INTO THE DIRT!!!!!!!

[grunt]

This was to give the illusion it might be another White Paper – it isn’t, it’s an internal party policy.No it isn't. It "seeks to provide a strategy for the future to assist the people who choose to make their lives in Scotland to determine the best route forward for our economy and society". It's a discussion paper.

[RyeSloan]

No it isn't. It "seeks to provide a strategy for the future to assist the people who choose to make their lives in Scotland to determine the best route forward for our economy and society". It's a discussion paper.

When what it should have been is an options paper.

It really didn’t appear to break down the drivers of growth, what role the state should have in facilitating that or even consider the what level of government ‘interference’ that would be considered optimal.

In fact it appeared to be based simply in the realm of belief that governments and strategists can direct an economy to grow at the pace and direction it wishes....we already know that’s bunkum. It should have seriously examined the role of the state and the market in economic growth but appeared to simply assume multiple strategies across multiple areas is the route forward, despite the evidence of previous strategies being suspiciously ineffective at raising Scotland’s anaemic growth rates.

It also appeared to fail to seriously consider differing tax regimes like how do flat taxes (relatively successful when tried with HK being a good example) stimulate growth. There are many radical and not so radical approaches to taxation that could be proposed but the paper did little to illuminate the pros and cons of each.

One primary bug bear of mine was the awful presentation. Just trying to get through the summary was a huge effort...if you are trying to present a strategy (even just for discussion) then let’s get a few high level infographics to start with to allow people to visualise how the whole thing hangs together. A rather jumbled list of bullet points does nothing to present the wholistic picture and it’s no surprise then that the whole thing went down like a lead balloon...it’s was impossible to understand what vision it was trying to portray.

A genuine missed opportunity to examine the pros and cons on the multitude of approaches that can be taken across many areas and how certain combinations of them could lead to differing outcomes.

Finally if you want a proper discussion you lay out a number of options, calling out the pros and cons of each as an overall option and then the pros and cons of each element within the options. You can then debate if you agree with each assessment and compare and contrast the impact of different approaches in the same area. This paper was woefully short in that regard.

[One Day Soon]

Alex Bell - ex SNP advisor and speech writer to Alex Salmond has said the Growth Commission is one long suicide note:

A suicide note is a mix of the self-serving and the raw truth.

The SNP has just written a long one – longer than that notorious 1983 labour manifesto. This note is called the SNP’s Growth Commission.

It contradicts most of the Scottish Government’s White Paper (thanks, civil servants, but we have just left you up the creek) and asks the membership to believe things they have previously been told were unionists lies. (Thanks, suckers).

We get some raw truth.

On Indy, budgets will have to cut further and faster than any Tory or Labour government would dream of – and things might get better only around 2050.

This would be heroic – well, noble at least – if it weren’t for the fact the SNP leadership is simply saying what a lot of of us have said for years. Coming so late to these truths feels like the party has been reluctantly dragged to reality.

Self-serving – utterly – but then, it is an internal party document, not a tablet of stone from the government.

The SNP went to great efforts to pretend it was somehow authoritative, even going so far as to release a statement, six minutes after releasing the report, which “welcomed it” – George Orwell is birling in his grave.

This was to give the illusion it might be another White Paper – it isn’t, it’s an internal party policy.

SNP membership didn’t get a chance to discuss or debate their new policy until it was being trailed across the media and published. Quite why the rest of us should debate a paper the party hasn’t read is not explained.

The document had sent spin doctors into confusion – what was the good news? Journalists were sent a preview with the strict instruction: “no follow-up questions”. A stupid instruction as at the same time journalists were aware that it was being briefed to colleagues.

It smacked of arrogance – the SNP would tell the nation what the story was.

Yet the story was confusing.

The document pointed in favour of a New Zealand-style economy, they said.

Which presumably meant low regulation, no state assistance for farmers and neo-liberal aggression.

The next round of briefings said it would be directing Scotland to a Danish model. Denmark has almost stagnant economic growth, high taxes and lots of state assistance.

Next, we heard Scots would be £4,000 better off after Indy. Who thought it was smart to adopt such a cheap gimmick in the wake of the Brexit £350million promise? Whoever it was, they should probably be fired.

We were the told Scotland would get her own currency, but only after a period of using the pound. In turn, this became we might just use the pound forever as we may never think it’s a good idea to switch.

If we stick with the pound, that would mean restrictions by the Bank of England, thus blocking the Growth Commission’s plans for whizzy tax cuts – and so the real story is that Scotland would incur the cost of independence but never acquire the economic freedom to recover.

None of this weakens the principled case – Scotland could be independent and could survive. That hasn’t been the argument for a long time – the argument lies in the cost.

It’s just that it is all very complicated, will inevitably lead to spending cuts as the new state adjusts to its real income while picking up the bill for new government structures, and may never achieve real economic freedom.

This June, the Nats gather in Aberdeen and my guess is the entire book will be swallowed whole, like square sausage for the Indy soul.

Which rather suggests it didn’t matter what it said, just that it existed.

The real message here is threefold.

The first is to con the nation into thinking the White Paper has been updated, which might make people think another referendum is inevitable.

Second, the leadership is giving loyal Nats some meat on the bone to chew over, and hopefully not notice there isn’t a referendum.

Thirdly, to smuggle in a pro-business agenda for the next Holyrood session.

Wilson, the architect of full fiscal autonomy back in the early days of the millennium, can see Scots have got a lot of powers, and there is no appetite to go further. This Growth Commission gives the party permission to move to the right. It is suicide because there is no referendum and no means to trigger one. Meanwhile the membership have been taken for fools, told all the emotional effort in defending the last argument was pointless.

Labour will pick up disillusioned lefties who now can see that welfare and the NHS won’t be any better after Indy, and the Tories are waiting to welcome back centrist Conservatives who drifted to the Nats. Both will do well. They have been given all the evidence they need to defeat the SNP from, of all places, the SNP.


That's a pretty brutal lesson in realpolitik. I don't know what Bell's agenda now is but I do know he is no fool.

I think Sturgeon is way out of her depth at this point and the only thing giving her cover on that is the distraction of the Brexit 5hit5how and the epic crapness of Corbyn.

Wilson is a very clubbable guy and liked. But he's not a serious politician or strategist and letting him run with this will prove to be very damaging for her/the SNP I think.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

No it isn't. It "seeks to provide a strategy for the future to assist the people who choose to make their lives in Scotland to determine the best route forward for our economy and society". It's a discussion paper.

Published by the SNP though, isn't it?

There were SNP MSPs on the Commission

[marinello59]

Robin MacAlpine has savaged the report as well.

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/12825/robin-mcalpine-we-need-swift-end-growth-commission-madness-and-find-some-self-respect

[johnbc70]

Robin MacAlpine has savaged the report as well.

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/12825/robin-mcalpine-we-need-swift-end-growth-commission-madness-and-find-some-self-respect

Nail on the head here:

But, to give you a flavour of those, let me set out one typical example. What the hell would Scotland do if there was a UK financial or economic crisis while we were Sterlingised. What would we do?

No monetary policy response, no fiscal policy response, no means to protect national liquidity, no ability to defend our economy in any way whatsoever. We'd be utterly crucified.

[grunt]

Nail on the head here:

But, to give you a flavour of those, let me set out one typical example. What the hell would Scotland do if there was a UK financial or economic crisis while we were Sterlingised. What would we do?

No monetary policy response, no fiscal policy response, no means to protect national liquidity, no ability to defend our economy in any way whatsoever. We'd be utterly crucified.In what way is that different to our current situation?

[johnbc70]

I think the silence from our usual SNP supporters on this board tells us all we need to know. Their silence is deafening.

Has the boy from Wings responded, can we expect a link?

[PeeJay]

In what way is that different to our current situation?

Scotland is part of the UK, Scotland has a say in the government of the UK - that's the different bit, surely? :confused:

[grunt]

scotland is part of the uk, scotland has a say in the government of the uk - that's the different bit, surely? :confused:lol.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

That's a pretty brutal lesson in realpolitik. I don't know what Bell's agenda now is but I do know he is no fool.

I think Sturgeon is way out of her depth at this point and the only thing giving her cover on that is the distraction of the Brexit 5hit5how and the epic crapness of Corbyn.

Wilson is a very clubbable guy and liked. But he's not a serious politician or strategist and letting him run with this will prove to be very damaging for her/the SNP I think.

I think maybe Bell fell out with Salmond when he worked for him. An easy thing to do.

Regardless of his biases, it's an interesting piece.

Best analysis I have read so far was a blog by Fraser of Allander Institute- can't link just now but it's on front page of their site.

[weecounty hibby]

Scotland is part of the UK, Scotland has a say in the government of the UK - that's the different bit, surely? :confused:

Yeah, you just keep believing that. Scotland has zero influence on UK policy. Just look at the recent events with Ruth telling May what to do and May blanking her. All that Bs about the strong Scottish Tory voice having an influence was pie in the sky but some folk up here believed it

[weecounty hibby]

I think maybe Bell fell out with Salmond when he worked for him. An easy thing to do.

Regardless of his biases, it's an interesting piece.

Best analysis I have read so far was a blog by Fraser of Allander Institute- can't link just now but it's on front page of their site.
I agree about the FAI, I heard a spokesman for them talking about the report and he was pretty balanced about it. Actually doing what the report was designed for and entered into a dialogue about the good and bad points. It is in my opinion meant to create debate not the wild accusations being made by some that Scotland will be a wasteland after independence or that it will all be rainbows and (freed hopefully) unicorns either

[CropleyWasGod]

I agree about the FAI, I heard a spokesman for them talking about the report and he was pretty balanced about it. Actually doing what the report was designed for and entered into a dialogue about the good and bad points. It is in my opinion meant to create debate not the wild accusations being made by some that Scotland will be a wasteland after independence or that it will all be rainbows and (freed hopefully) unicorns eitherI'm all for widening the debate, and trying to soften the edges of the entrenched.

But if you're telling me that an independent Scotland will have no ****ing unicorns, well they can bally well just kiss my bottom.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[johnbc70]

In what way is that different to our current situation?

So how would Scotland as an independent country have coped with the financial crisis of 2007/2008?

[grunt]

So how would Scotland as an independent country have coped with the financial crisis of 2007/2008?
How the hell should I know? That's not the point though, is it?
You said that by tying ourselves to sterling we're open to risks associated with any fall or other problem with sterling.
Which is perhaps true. But it's no worse than the position we're in now, and now we have no control over our economy at all.

[johnbc70]

How the hell should I know? That's bot the point though, is it?
You said that by tying ourselves to sterling we're open to risks associated with any fall or other problem with sterling.
Which is perhaps true. But it's no worse than the position we're in now, and now we have no control over our economy at all.

We will have even less control when a foreign country is deciding our interest rates and fiscal policy for a long period of time.

[grunt]

We will have even less control when a foreign country is deciding our interest rates and fiscal policy for a long period of time.
Less control than none? Ok.

[RyeSloan]

Robin MacAlpine has savaged the report as well.

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/12825/robin-mcalpine-we-need-swift-end-growth-commission-madness-and-find-some-self-respect

Ouch.

[johnbc70]

Less control than none? Ok.

No your wrong, in my opinion of course. So when the BoE is settling interest rates today they take into account the whole of the UK, in an independent Scotland they would not care less about a foreign country when setting interest rates.

[johnbc70]

How the hell should I know?

Probably the response if anyone asked Nicola Sturgeon.

[grunt]

Probably the response if anyone asked Nicola Sturgeon.Very good.
You win, I guess I'll just vote Tory next time as obviously voting SNP is a waste of time and effort.

[JeMeSouviens]

No your wrong, in my opinion of course. So when the BoE is settling interest rates today they take into account the whole of the UK, in an independent Scotland they would not care less about a foreign country when setting interest rates.

So, zero difference then.

[CropleyWasGod]

No your wrong, in my opinion of course. So when the BoE is settling interest rates today they take into account the whole of the UK, in an independent Scotland they would not care less about a foreign country when setting interest rates.Given that the economy in Scotland would have an impact on the value of the £.... if there were a currency union....then of course the BofE would have to take that into account when setting policy.

If there weren't a currency union, you're probably correct about them caring less. Then again, a responsible central bank would always be aware of the policies of those economies closest to it....and react accordingly.

The issue of the currency union is one of the most important issues in the whole debate. The GC report seems to shy away from supporting one, if I understand it correctly. Im not sure I understand why. But... as has been said often on here... It's a discussion document.

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[johnbc70]

So, zero difference then.

So in scenario one the BoE look at the whole of the UK when setting interest rates, Scotland is part of the UK and is considered and represented accordingly.

In scenario two they look at what's left of the UK, not Scotland anymore, and set the interest rates. No consideration given to Scotland at all.

In both scenarios we get the interest rate they pick.

Which scenario do you think we have more control over, one or two?

[JeMeSouviens]

So in scenario one the BoE look at the whole of the UK when setting interest rates, Scotland is part of the UK and is considered and represented accordingly.

In scenario two they look at what's left of the UK, not Scotland anymore, and set the interest rates. No consideration given to Scotland at all.

In both scenarios we get the interest rate they pick.

Which scenario do you think we have more control over, one or two?

Zero for both.

[johnbc70]

Zero for both.

OK, don't answer that's fine.

[JeMeSouviens]

OK, don't answer that's fine.

I did answer. I cannot envisage a scenario where the BoE would adjust interest rates to suit Scotland unless they were going to do so anyway for London & SE. That’s not a criticism btw, they’d be mad to do otherwise.

[johnbc70]

I did answer. I cannot envisage a scenario where the BoE would adjust interest rates to suit Scotland unless they were going to do so anyway for London & SE. That’s not a criticism btw, they’d be mad to do otherwise.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41815712


"As well as economic data, the MPC is provided with reports from its regional agents, which are described by the Bank as its "eyes, ears and voice" across the UK."

Across the UK is the pertinent point.

After independence the same decision will be made but with no consideration for Scotland.


You have your opinion of course, but the BoE disagree. If I am making an important decision then I am sure you will understand if I base this on facts from the BoE.

[CropleyWasGod]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41815712


"As well as economic data, the MPC is provided with reports from its regional agents, which are described by the Bank as its "eyes, ears and voice" across the UK."

Across the UK is the pertinent point.

After independence the same decision will be made but with no consideration for Scotland.


You have your opinion of course, but the BoE disagree. If I am making an important decision then I am sure you will understand if I base this on facts from the BoE.See my take on it.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[JeMeSouviens]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41815712


"As well as economic data, the MPC is provided with reports from its regional agents, which are described by the Bank as its "eyes, ears and voice" across the UK."

Across the UK is the pertinent point.

After independence the same decision will be made but with no consideration for Scotland.


You have your opinion of course, but the BoE disagree. If I am making an important decision then I am sure you will understand if I base this on facts from the BoE.

No bother. Folk believe all sorts of fairy stories.

[johnbc70]

No bother. Folk believe all sorts of fairy stories.

They sure do.

[RyeSloan]

No bother. Folk believe all sorts of fairy stories.

I distinctly remember the Yes campaign, while supporting a currency union, were quite clear on the importance of having Scottish representation in the BoE and how that would protect our interests.

Are we now to suppose that having zero input on monetary policy nor even being a consideration of the central bank would actually a positive thing?

[Mibbes Aye]

Zero for both.

I think you're the third different Nat poster on here in the last couple of pages spouting the line that Scotland has no influence on UK policymaking.

I guess when you can't sell a positive story, the default is to try and stoke the fires of grievance and resentment.

[Mibbes Aye]

Given that the economy in Scotland would have an impact on the value of the £.... if there were a currency union....then of course the BofE would have to take that into account when setting policy.

If there weren't a currency union, you're probably correct about them caring less. Then again, a responsible central bank would always be aware of the policies of those economies closest to it....and react accordingly.

The issue of the currency union is one of the most important issues in the whole debate. The GC report seems to shy away from supporting one, if I understand it correctly. Im not sure I understand why. But... as has been said often on here... It's a discussion document.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

To call it a discussion document is stretching it a bit, isn't it?

The lines about no austerity, when it is clearly calling for a long-term deficit reduction programme, is just embarrassing. I don't mind spin but I do mind poor spin :greengrin

It's a pro-independence puff piece and if the opposite had been released then Nats would rightly be questioning whether they should even bother responding.

[snooky]

So how would Scotland as an independent country have coped with the financial crisis of 2007/2008?
The way Iceland managed their financial crisis maybe?
Jailing Fred Goodwin would have been a good start.

[CropleyWasGod]

To call it a discussion document is stretching it a bit, isn't it?

The lines about no austerity, when it is clearly calling for a long-term deficit reduction programme, is just embarrassing. I don't mind spin but I do mind poor spin :greengrin

It's a pro-independence puff piece and if the opposite had been released then Nats would rightly be questioning whether they should even bother responding.Fair enough.

But the substance of my post was answering a previous poster. I'm guessing he's missed it.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[Mibbes Aye]

Fair enough.

But the substance of my post was answering a previous poster. I'm guessing he's missed it.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

Yeah, that's fair enough too.

And I agree with you about the unicorns.......

[RyeSloan]

The way Iceland managed their financial crisis maybe?
Jailing Fred Goodwin would have been a good start.

Iceland has only now lifted capital controls. 10 years later.

They also suffered a severe recession and a 90% drop in their stock market.

They now have a huge tourism boom which has single handedly saved them...over 2m visitors to a country with a population of 300k. That boom though brings its own perils.

None the less the lessons are there...take your medicine quickly and painfully then over time you can get healthy again.

Iceland is a unique circumstance but does show how countries can react when they control their own currency...the comparison to Greece in the linked article is a topical one when you see the effects of not having control in similar circumstances means; grinding, ever lasting austerity.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/03/14/business/iceland-economy-finance-capital-controls.html

[grunt]

I think you're the third different Nat poster on here in the last couple of pages spouting the line that Scotland has no influence on UK policymaking. I guess when you can't sell a positive story, the default is to try and stoke the fires of grievance and resentment.
Well that's one view. Or you could use your eyes and see for yourself the influence Scotland has on UK policy making. I don't know, take Brexit for example?

[snooky]

Well that's one view. Or you could use your eyes and see for yourself the influence Scotland has on UK policy making. I don't know, take Brexit for example?

Take anything, for example.

[JeMeSouviens]

I think you're the third different Nat poster on here in the last couple of pages spouting the line that Scotland has no influence on UK policymaking.

I guess when you can't sell a positive story, the default is to try and stoke the fires of grievance and resentment.

Eh? Just stating the obvious. Of course Scotland has no influence on UK policy making. How is that remotely contentious?

[grunt]

Iceland is a unique circumstance but does show how countries can react when they control their own currency...the comparison to Greece in the linked article is a topical one when you see the effects of not having control in similar circumstances means; grinding, ever lasting austerity.I've been to Iceland a few times over the years, also Greece. The thing that struck me in Iceland was that many of the people you meet in the shops seem to have more than one job - e.g. working in a shop in the daytime, working in pubs / restaurants at night.

Contrast that with Greece, where if you visit an ancient site, there's one guy who sells you a ticket, and another guy who takes your ticket and tears it in half.

I'm not sure what that says, but it always struck me as indicative of something or other.

[Mibbes Aye]

Well that's one view. Or you could use your eyes and see for yourself the influence Scotland has on UK policy making. I don't know, take Brexit for example?

I voted against Brexit but it was a UK referendum and leave voters won.

In terms of the policy of Brexit negotiations, there will be people in Scotland who think May is making a shambles of it, me included, but that stands true for people all around the UK. And there were over a million Scots who voted to leave.

[Mibbes Aye]

Eh? Just stating the obvious. Of course Scotland has no influence on UK policy making. How is that remotely contentious?

Makes you wonder why the SNP contests Westminster elections and claims allowances for the 35 MPs it has?

[grunt]

I voted against Brexit but it was a UK referendum and leave voters won. In terms of the policy of Brexit negotiations, there will be people in Scotland who think May is making a shambles of it, me included, but that stands true for people all around the UK. And there were over a million Scots who voted to leave.That's all very interesting, but I was giving it as an example of Scotland having NO influence on UK policy making. Which stands, I think.

[snooky]

I've been to Iceland a few times over the years, also Greece. The thing that struck me in Iceland was that many of the people you meet in the shops seem to have more than one job - e.g. working in a shop in the daytime, working in pubs / restaurants at night.

Contrast that with Greece, where if you visit an ancient site, there's one guy who sells you a ticket, and another guy who takes your ticket and tears it in half.

I'm not sure what that says, but it always struck me as indicative of something or other.

Islanders (particularly the ones in small islands) traditionally have more than one job for obvious reasons.
Don't know if that relates to one the size of Iceland though.

BTW, there is an interesting documentary on Lesley Riddoch's visit to the Faroes currently doing the rounds (I think there's a link on WoS). They seem to be doing okay.
No pyramid selling there - boom! boom! (Sorry about that one :wink:)

[Mibbes Aye]

That's all very interesting, but I was giving it as an example of Scotland having NO influence on UK policy making. Which stands, I think.

I don't think you can back that up.

First of all, what is the "Scotland" you refer to? A pro-independence, anti-Brexit Scotland? Because there are many, many Scots who don't identify with that.

[JeMeSouviens]

Makes you wonder why the SNP contests Westminster elections and claims allowances for the 35 MPs it has?

Eh? again. I’m assuming you agree it’s not remotely contentious? Otherwise, what are you on about?

[grunt]

I don't think you can back that up.Ok. I'll play for a little while longer. However, I hope you'll agree that it's difficult for me to answer a negative, i.e. it's difficult to show that something hasn't happened.

So let's change the question. Can you show me a time when Scotland - however you want to define it - has had an influence on UK policy making? And by influence, I mean a noticeable influence when Scotland has changed the direction of UK policy.

[Mibbes Aye]

Ok. I'll play for a little while longer. However, I hope you'll agree that it's difficult for me to answer a negative, i.e. it's difficult to show that something hasn't happened.

So let's change the question. Can you show me a time when Scotland - however you want to define it - has had an influence on UK policy making? And by influence, I mean a noticeable influence when Scotland has changed the direction of UK policy.

You need to address the original question - Scotland isn't some homogeneous thing (though it would suit nationalists to present Scotland as such). With over a million leave voters, it's not hard to imagine there are some or many Scots who are more than happy with the way Brexit is going and are glad they voted to leave. By casting their vote they way they did then they contributed to changing the direction of UK policy.

[Mibbes Aye]

Eh? again. I’m assuming you agree it’s not remotely contentious? Otherwise, what are you on about?

You can maybe try and address the point in other posts about trying to make out Scotland is some homogeneous thing, it's not.

It doesn't suit a nationalist narrative though, I get that.

[grunt]

You need to address the original question - Scotland isn't some homogeneous thing (though it would suit nationalists to present Scotland as such). With over a million leave voters, it's not hard to imagine there are some or many Scots who are more than happy with the way Brexit is going and are glad they voted to leave. By casting their vote they way they did then they contributed to changing the direction of UK policy.
So you define Scotland as 38% of those who voted in the EU referendum? Ok.

[grunt]

You can maybe try and address the point in other posts about trying to make out Scotland is some homogeneous thing, it's not.

It doesn't suit a nationalist narrative though, I get that.But this is a daft argument. If you can't take a view on what is Scottish policy, as determined through our electoral system in both Westminster and Holyrood, how else are you to define Scotland?

You know, I really can't be bothered with this. It feels like something out of Monty Python.

[Mibbes Aye]

So you define Scotland as 38% of those who voted in the EU referendum? Ok.

That's pretty poor, I've said no such thing.

I'm challenging you to explain what 'Scotland''s view is, as you seem to contend it has no influence on policymaking. And I've pointed out that for starters, there's a fundamental split whereby a sizeable number of Scottish voters wanted to leave Europe and a sizeable and bigger number wanted to stay in.

[JeMeSouviens]

You can maybe try and address the point in other posts about trying to make out Scotland is some homogeneous thing, it's not.

It doesn't suit a nationalist narrative though, I get that.

If you’re trying to say individual Scots have as much influence as any other individual UK voter then yes of course. But you weren’t a few posts ago when you were talking about policymaking and implying Scotland as an entity was considered at all.

[weecounty hibby]

You need to address the original question - Scotland isn't some homogeneous thing (though it would suit nationalists to present Scotland as such). With over a million leave voters, it's not hard to imagine there are some or many Scots who are more than happy with the way Brexit is going and are glad they voted to leave. By casting their vote they way they did then they contributed to changing the direction of UK policy.

Ok then what about this? When did the way Scotland voted make the difference to the elected government of the day? You know if the number of MPs returned for Scotland actually swung the vote? Do you see where I'm going with that? Basically it means that the parties in England don't care about Scotland cos they know that if they win in England they win overall. Remember all the way through the 80s Scotland sending all those labour MPs that made no difference as England had voted Tory. Even when new Labour won they didn't need to rely on Scotland's vote.

[Mibbes Aye]

If you’re trying to say individual Scots have as much influence as any other individual UK voter then yes of course. But you weren’t a few posts ago when you were talking about policymaking and implying Scotland as an entity was considered at all.


Thank you.

Much of domestic policy is already devolved to the Scottish Government and Scottish Parliament. I believe further policy around tax and benefits has followed since.

When you talk about Scotland as an entity however, do you actually mean the SNP administration?

For example, I don't think changes to DWP (UK-wide) policy take no consideration of Scotland. In fact, quite the opposite. When the Independent Living Fund was decentralised in England and monies disbursed to local authorities, there was successful lobbying to retain a centralised pot for Scotland.

It's not headline stuff, though it matters a lot to disabled people who access it.

[xyz23jc]

Ok then what about this? When did the way Scotland voted make the difference to the elected government of the day? You know if the number of MPs returned for Scotland actually swung the vote? Do you see where I'm going with that? Basically it means that the parties in England don't care about Scotland cos they know that if they win in England they win overall. Remember all the way through the 80s Scotland sending all those labour MPs that made no difference as England had voted Tory. Even when new Labour won they didn't need to rely on Scotland's vote.



Don't forget, the 'Socialist' Corbyn and his party still refuse point blank to have anything to do with the SNP on any issue, even though they are the democratically elected government of the 'devolved' parliament! Democracy and man of principle my a***!

[Mibbes Aye]

Ok then what about this? When did the way Scotland voted make the difference to the elected government of the day? You know if the number of MPs returned for Scotland actually swung the vote? Do you see where I'm going with that? Basically it means that the parties in England don't care about Scotland cos they know that if they win in England they win overall. Remember all the way through the 80s Scotland sending all those labour MPs that made no difference as England had voted Tory. Even when new Labour won they didn't need to rely on Scotland's vote.

Your premise seems to rely on an assumption of ignorance and selfishness on the part of those making policy. To extend your argument, if a senior civil servant comes from Cornwall are they only going to consider what matters to the south-west of England and ignore everything else? Of course not, that would be nonsense. This is only an issue because it suits the nationalist argument to stoke up an atmosphere of 'Scotland' being hard done by, no doubt due to the invidious English - and all because they lack a positive message or story to sell.

You're right, New Labour never relied on the Scottish vote to win. I'm glad you cited New Labour though.

They were in power for two-thirds of the last twenty years. A Scottish MP was prime minister for part of that, but spent the majority of it in charge of UK economic and fiscal policy. Just as importantly, he had almost total authority over domestic policy as per the agreement with Blair after John Smith's death.

During that time, Scottish MPs ran the Home Office, the Foreign Office, the Ministry of Defence, Work and Pensions, Transport, International Development etc etc.

Yet with all that Scottish power, they still managed to devolve powers to Holyrood eh?

[JeMeSouviens]

Thank you.

Much of domestic policy is already devolved to the Scottish Government and Scottish Parliament. I believe further policy around tax and benefits has followed since.

When you talk about Scotland as an entity however, do you actually mean the SNP administration?

For example, I don't think changes to DWP (UK-wide) policy take no consideration of Scotland. In fact, quite the opposite. When the Independent Living Fund was decentralised in England and monies disbursed to local authorities, there was successful lobbying to retain a centralised pot for Scotland.

It's not headline stuff, though it matters a lot to disabled people who access it.

Right, I see the disconnect. To me, Scotland is at least potentially a country. To you it’s just an arbitrary subdivision of UK voters.

[Mibbes Aye]

Right, I see the disconnect. To me, Scotland is at least potentially a country. To you it’s just an arbitrary subdivision of UK voters.

Almost.

I don't dispute that people can see an idea of 'Scotland' as a country or a nation. I question what assumptions and narratives lead to that however, not least of all because it's only relatively recently in the grand scheme of things that the lowlands and highlands could be considered as one whole.

And I have a deep mistrust of nationalism and the motives of those who use it as a rallying cry.

As far as the UK goes it's meh, but it's what we have and while we can aspire for better, I think fragmenting along socially constructed lines of difference is worse.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Ok. I'll play for a little while longer. However, I hope you'll agree that it's difficult for me to answer a negative, i.e. it's difficult to show that something hasn't happened.

So let's change the question. Can you show me a time when Scotland - however you want to define it - has had an influence on UK policy making? And by influence, I mean a noticeable influence when Scotland has changed the direction of UK policy.

There are huge problems with what you mean by 'Scotland' in this question, but off the top of my head -

When Jack McConnell's govt got different rules on immigration
When snp Mps effectively brought down a govt (Callaghan?)

When Gordon Brown ran the UK economy for a decade, with John Reid as home sec and others.

The Scottish influence on creating the Labour party, Ramsay MacDonald, John Smith, and other Scottish PMs (Douglas home?), not to mention the liberal and Tory parties.

Scotland successfully lobbying to build aircraft carriers, new navy boats, Scotland acts of 1998, 2011 and 2015 (?), literally dozens of Scottish bills that went through Westminster, and all the other intangible influences of the literally thousands of Scots who work in the UK media, policy, and civil service across the UK.

Make your case of course, but making stupid satements that are demonstrably untrue doesn't help the debate.

[JeMeSouviens]

Almost.

I don't dispute that people can see an idea of 'Scotland' as a country or a nation. I question what assumptions and narratives lead to that however, not least of all because it's only relatively recently in the grand scheme of things that the lowlands and highlands could be considered as one whole.

And I have a deep mistrust of nationalism and the motives of those who use it as a rallying cry.

As far as the UK goes it's meh, but it's what we have and while we can aspire for better, I think fragmenting along socially constructed lines of difference is worse.

I think Britain and British nationalism has a much stronger streak of exceptionalism than Scottish.

To me the history doesn’t really matter. The US or Australia are successful countries where the population buys into the national good though neither has much history. Scotland has a chance to be a modern European country in a way that the UK will never be (imo).

[Moulin Yarns]

The way Iceland managed their financial crisis maybe?
Jailing Fred Goodwin would have been a good start.

Iceland also got a bail out loan from the Faroe Islands. Not bad for a small self governing country.

[Mibbes Aye]

I think Britain and British nationalism has a much stronger streak of exceptionalism than Scottish.

To me the history doesn’t really matter. The US or Australia are successful countries where the population buys into the national good though neither has much history. Scotland has a chance to be a modern European country in a way that the UK will never be (imo).

It's interesting.

I read Linda Colley's book years ago about how a 'British identity' was formed - it very much rested on three pillars. First was the existential threat from war with Spain and more importantly France, second was through religion, specifically the consequences of the Reformation, and third was through trade and Empire, incorporating the Industrial Revolution.

Those drivers don't seem to exist nowadays, which perhaps explains why nationalists struggle for a convincing argument - and by convincing, I don't mean 'genuine', I mean something that can capture the mood of a large majority.

As to whether 'Scotland' or the UK can be 'modern'? I seem to recall that some of the earliest legislation introduced by the Scottish Parliament was to stop bans on public breastfeeding and some real game-changing land reform. That did seem modern and progressive. Likewise one of their first acts was to repeal Clause 28, despite the determined efforts of Brian Souter, the notorious SNP bankroller :greengrin

By the same token, UK government has shown a capacity to be progressive and 'modern'. There are countless examples of positive, forward-looking pieces of legislation going back decades.

And at the same time, EU membership has meant the adoption of many progressive laws and directives

I'm not sure the comparison with the US and Australia is valid - Scotland isn't a colony. Yugoslavia might have been a more appropriate analogy though obviously without the sectarian and ethnic warfare.

[Moulin Yarns]

Islanders (particularly the ones in small islands) traditionally have more than one job for obvious reasons.
Don't know if that relates to one the size of Iceland though.

BTW, there is an interesting documentary on Lesley Riddoch's visit to the Faroes currently doing the rounds (I think there's a link on WoS). They seem to be doing okay.
No pyramid selling there - boom! boom! (Sorry about that one :wink:)

I posted the link on this thread earlier.

[johnbc70]

The way Iceland managed their financial crisis maybe?
Jailing Fred Goodwin would have been a good start.

Yes, let's be like Iceland.

"The financial crisis had a serious negative impact on the Icelandic economy. The national currency fell sharply in value, foreign currency transactions were virtually suspended for weeks, and the market capitalisation of the Icelandic stock exchange fell by more than 90%. As a result of the crisis, Iceland underwent a severe economic depression; the country's gross domestic product dropped by 10% in real terms between the third quarter of 2007 and the third quarter of 2010"

Can't wait for it if there is another financial crisis.

[snooky]

Yes, let's be like Iceland.

"The financial crisis had a serious negative impact on the Icelandic economy. The national currency fell sharply in value, foreign currency transactions were virtually suspended for weeks, and the market capitalisation of the Icelandic stock exchange fell by more than 90%. As a result of the crisis, Iceland underwent a severe economic depression; the country's gross domestic product dropped by 10% in real terms between the third quarter of 2007 and the third quarter of 2010"

Can't wait for it if there is another financial crisis.

How are they doing now relative to the UK?
(I don't know myself. Just asking.)

[grunt]

There are huge problems with what you mean by 'Scotland' in this question, but off the top of my head -

When Jack McConnell's govt got different rules on immigration
When snp Mps effectively brought down a govt (Callaghan?)

When Gordon Brown ran the UK economy for a decade, with John Reid as home sec and others.

The Scottish influence on creating the Labour party, Ramsay MacDonald, John Smith, and other Scottish PMs (Douglas home?), not to mention the liberal and Tory parties.

Scotland successfully lobbying to build aircraft carriers, new navy boats, Scotland acts of 1998, 2011 and 2015 (?), literally dozens of Scottish bills that went through Westminster, and all the other intangible influences of the literally thousands of Scots who work in the UK media, policy, and civil service across the UK.

Make your case of course, but making stupid satements that are demonstrably untrue doesn't help the debate.

You are clearly very clever, more so than me. You have a better grasp of political history than I do. But you are deliberately misinterpreting my comment in order to score points.

1. Getting an opt out isn’t influencing uk policy.
2. Individual Scots having key roles e.g in the Labour Party isn’t what I meant about Scotland having influence.
3. Getting an allocation of funding e.g shipbuilding isn’t influencing uk policy.

But you know all this. You’re clever, you know what I meant.

Thank you for describing my comment as stupid. I didn’t think it was but I’ll not waste your time any more with further stupid comments.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[RyeSloan]

How are they doing now relative to the UK?
(I don't know myself. Just asking.)

There is a link in my reply to you that could read then you wouldn’t need to ask ;-)

<he says trying not to sound too much like a pious p rik [emoji23]>

[speedy_gonzales]

Ok then what about this? When did the way Scotland voted make the difference to the elected government of the day? You know if the number of MPs returned for Scotland actually swung the vote?
I basically googled "has Scotland swung an election" and this was the first hit

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/11552991/The-general-elections-where-Scotland-decided-who-ran-the-UK.html

I seem to remember during the days of the independence referendum that it was stated more than once that Scotland, for being only 1 in 10, has had more than its "fair" share of influence at WM,,,, I could argue all day what is fare and what is our share, but hey ho,,,,

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You are clearly very clever, more so than me. You have a better grasp of political history than I do. But you are deliberately misinterpreting my comment in order to score points.

1. Getting an opt out isn’t influencing uk policy.
2. Individual Scots having key roles e.g in the Labour Party isn’t what I meant about Scotland having influence.
3. Getting an allocation of funding e.g shipbuilding isn’t influencing uk policy.

But you know all this. You’re clever, you know what I meant.

Thank you for describing my comment as stupid. I didn’t think it was but I’ll not waste your time any more with further stupid comments.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Apologies, I didn't mean that to sound as personal as it did, I didn't mean it that way.

[snooky]

There is a link in my reply to you that could read then you wouldn’t need to ask ;-)

<he says trying not to sound too much like a pious p rik [emoji23]>

A-ha. Just read your post. Very interesting. Thanks, RS. :aok: