The pizza tax

[Alex Trager]

What are people’s thoughts on what is likely to be a highly emotive subject.

Personally I am a big supporter of Jamie Oliver and his mission to reduce child obesity and in turn obesity in general.

I know many others disagree with it for a variety of reasons.

PS i know it’s not a pizza tax but it’s quite an eye catching title

[NAE NOOKIE]

I detest this scatter gun approach to public health .... FFS whatever happened to self control and good parenting. Its in the same ballpark as the utter loonies who actually would support hanging the odd innocent man just so long as it meant you got all the guilty folk too.

I live in a town of 14,000 people and when I am in the town centre at lunchtime the kids are piling out of the high school for lunch ... there's usually a couple of hundred and practically none of them are fat ... either all these obese kids stay in at lunchtime or there's something in the water here that means the kids can eat and drink what they want without putting on weight.

Anyway .... my advice to anybody on here under 40 is to start saving or investing in as good a private pension as you can possibly afford and advise your kids to do the same, because this headlong rush to force everybody to live to be 100 years old means you'll probably be lucky to qualify for a state pension at 80 ... enjoy your ridiculously long working life :aok:

[21.05.2016]

What a nanny state we're becoming. Give people the information and the facts about what the risks are of eating too much junk, drinking too much, smoking etc. but let people make decisions for themselves.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

What are people’s thoughts on what is likely to be a highly emotive subject.

Personally I am a big supporter of Jamie Oliver and his mission to reduce child obesity and in turn obesity in general.

I know many others disagree with it for a variety of reasons.

PS i know it’s not a pizza tax but it’s quite an eye catching title

While i am instinctively sceptical about moves like this, we really do need to do something.

While tye cry of nanny state may be correct, the problem is with a publically funded health system, the govt has to make interventions.

I really dont think people realise how much trouble the NHS is in - and one of the big problem areas is diabetes. Already 10% of all medicine spending in scotland is on diabetes - and it is growing.

Simply put, while any measures may be unpalatable, they may well be necesssry to stip the system collapsing.

I totally agree that personal responsbility needs to come into it, some absolute morons out there think its acceptable to send a kid to school with a packet of crisps and a luminous blue 'energy' drink for their breakfast - what goes on in these people's heads?

But unfortunately this is a societal problem, and it will need some fairly radical and intrusive measures, either to people, industry or both.

[Sylar]

There's such an element of "snobbery" about it, but we do drastically need to do something to reduce our waistlines generally in this country!

Jamie Oliver attacked Dominos recently about their calorific content etc - having said that, here's a comparison between a margherita pizza at both places:



Dietary Info
Dominos
Jamie's Italian


Calories
744
839


Fat
22
33


Salt
3.5
3


Sugar
11
10



Is it OK that this is the dietary info for a pizza in his restaurant because it's a sit-down experience and slightly more posh than a takeaway?

I 100% support efforts to tackle obesity, especially in younger children, but it needs to be a strategic approach - not a sledgehammer, nannying approach. As someone else pointed out on the alcohol thread, there are plenty of places around Europe where cheap booze exists but not the problems we see here. The same is true of junk food. Education is what's needed, not a mandated "thou shall not".

[Alex Trager]

I detest this scatter gun approach to public health .... FFS whatever happened to self control and good parenting. Its in the same ballpark as the utter loonies who actually would support hanging the odd innocent man just so long as it meant you got all the guilty folk too.

I live in a town of 14,000 people and when I am in the town centre at lunchtime the kids are piling out of the high school for lunch ... there's usually a couple of hundred and practically none of them are fat ... either all these obese kids stay in at lunchtime or there's something in the water here that means the kids can eat and drink what they want without putting on weight.

Anyway .... my advice to anybody on here under 40 is to start saving or investing in as good a private pension as you can possibly afford and advise your kids to do the same, because this headlong rush to force everybody to live to be 100 years old means you'll probably be lucky to qualify for a state pension at 80 ... enjoy your ridiculously long working life :aok:

See it’s interesting you say that.
My wife is a teacher. She says that the kids, on the whole, when given responsibility for their own lunch almost always select horrendously unhealthy choices. Now whilst that may not lead to being overweight it still leads to them being unhealthy which is not good.

As has been said they will go for high sugar drinks and a packet of crisps or something.
When I went to school in Musselburgh we had: a pizza place; a chinese; 2 chippies; Greggs; Fords; Lucas; Subway; Baguette Express; A supermarket. We also had a couple of smaller shops and of course all the cafes. They now have a cake shop that I know of - have since moved out of Muss so don’t know for sure what is left. I went to school 8 years ago so not exactly long ago now

The amount of kids that ate utter crap is staggering. As i said they may well not be overweight but they sure as hell were massively unhealthy.

My wife also says there are some that get a tenner a day which is mental in itself.


What a nanny state we're becoming. Give people the information and the facts about what the risks are of eating too much junk, drinking too much, smoking etc. but let people make decisions for themselves.

The information is out there already and our obesity epidemic is growing bigger and bigger it’s not far from being endemic of the country. As has been suggested this is to help the NHS survive the crisis.

I would say that more people are overweight in this country than are not.

Our perception of what is ‘normal’ has being shifted to accommodate these larger people. Meaning a person can be overweight and regarded as normal. Which they would be. However this is an issue

[calumhibee1]

See it’s interesting you say that.
My wife is a teacher. She says that the kids, on the whole, when given responsibility for their own lunch almost always select horrendously unhealthy choices. Now whilst that may not lead to being overweight it still leads to them being unhealthy which is not good.

As has been said they will go for high sugar drinks and a packet of crisps or something.
When I went to school in Musselburgh we had: a pizza place; a chinese; 2 chippies; Greggs; Fords; Lucas; Subway; Baguette Express; A supermarket. We also had a couple of smaller shops and of course all the cafes. They now have a cake shop that I know of - have since moved out of Muss so don’t know for sure what is left. I went to school 8 years ago so not exactly long ago now

The amount of kids that ate utter crap is staggering. As i said they may well not be overweight but they sure as hell were massively unhealthy.

My wife also says there are some that get a tenner a day which is mental in itself.



The information is out there already and our obesity epidemic is growing bigger and bigger it’s not far from being endemic of the country. As has been suggested this is to help the NHS survive the crisis.

I would say that more people are overweight in this country than are not.

Our perception of what is ‘normal’ has being shifted to accommodate these larger people. Meaning a person can be overweight and regarded as normal. Which they would be. However this is an issue

I agree with the last paragraph. There was an article on fb where the top comment was a woman saying how women who are size 14-20 are normal and 12 and below are skinny, which just simply isn’t the case as much as some people will hate to hear it.

[Sylar]

I agree with the last paragraph. There was an article on fb where the top comment was a woman saying how women who are size 14-20 are normal and 12 and below are skinny, which just simply isn’t the case as much as some people will hate to hear it.

I think that starts to become a slightly different debate.

Clothing sizes have drastically changed since we began outsourcing a lot of our manufacturing to China et al. It's at the point where "size 12" means nothing anymore, and that there's an arbitrary acceptability of what is and isn't normal.

Last year, my wife picked me up 3 pairs of shorts from the same shop - all a 34 waist, but different styles. One of them wouldn't stay on without a fully tightened belt, one fit perfectly and one barely made it over my thighs (I'm not that big a guy).

There's a lot of body-shaming when it comes to female fashion particularly, with retailers setting ludicrously unrealistic "standards" when it comes to models and sizes. Having said that, I find a lot of the "body positivity" stuff goes too far into the realm of fat normalisation - some of these body positivity, plus size models are simply trying to justify being unhealthily huge. But if a young girl is told she has to fit into a size 6, or feels compelled to aspire to these models that sell the clothes, that's equally not OK.

My wife and I were having a chat yesterday about sizes/pricing of clothing in the wake of the storm New Look have found themselves caught up in. They were charging more for larger sizes of the same top, and they've been slammed for it. They argue that more material is required to create the larger sizes, and their margins have been increasingly reduced as no longer do the smaller sizes supplement the larger ones in terms of cost (i.e., you don't get a reduction in clothing cost for being small, so having a flat rate used to balance out before the proportion of the population taking larger sizes increased).

[Alex Trager]

I agree with the last paragraph. There was an article on fb where the top comment was a woman saying how women who are size 14-20 are normal and 12 and below are skinny, which just simply isn’t the case as much as some people will hate to hear it.

It is the case in this country nowadays. Unfortunately

[Hibbyradge]

What a nanny state we're becoming. Give people the information and the facts about what the risks are of eating too much junk, drinking too much, smoking etc. but let people make decisions for themselves.

I detest the lazy tabloid expression, "nanny state".

The government's job is to bring in legislation to protect its citizens and to use raised taxation wisely.

Obesity is costing the NHS billions. Free choice is costing the country billions.

Why is alcohol restricted to over 18s? Should that law be changed?

You could take the " free choice" argument to ridiculous lengths, like speeding, gun control, class A drugs. Why not make driving on the left an individual's choice?

Laws are made for the benefit of society. If you want a pizza, you'll still be able to get one.

[CropleyWasGod]

I detest the lazy tabloid expression, "nanny state".

The government's job is to bring in legislation to protect its citizens and to use raised taxation wisely.

Obesity is costing the NHS billions. Free choice is costing the country billions.

Why is alcohol restricted to over 18s? Should that law be changed?

You could take the " free choice" argument to ridiculous lengths, like speeding, gun control, class A drugs. Why not make driving on the left an individual's choice?

Laws are made for the benefit of society. If you want a pizza, you'll still be able to get one.

I'd agree with all of that. It's very similar to the debate about alcohol pricing.

On the flip side, there's also a case for Governments taking the so-called sugar-tax, and using it to subsidise producers of healthy foods. Much of the issue is that lower-income families can't afford them.

[JeMeSouviens]

There's such an element of "snobbery" about it, but we do drastically need to do something to reduce our waistlines generally in this country!

Jamie Oliver attacked Dominos recently about their calorific content etc - having said that, here's a comparison between a margherita pizza at both places:



Dietary Info
Dominos
Jamie's Italian


Calories
744
839


Fat
22
33


Salt
3.5
3


Sugar
11
10



Is it OK that this is the dietary info for a pizza in his restaurant because it's a sit-down experience and slightly more posh than a takeaway?

I 100% support efforts to tackle obesity, especially in younger children, but it needs to be a strategic approach - not a sledgehammer, nannying approach. As someone else pointed out on the alcohol thread, there are plenty of places around Europe where cheap booze exists but not the problems we see here. The same is true of junk food. Education is what's needed, not a mandated "thou shall not".



Not sure where you got your dominos numbers?

From their website: https://corporate.dominos.co.uk/Media/Default/Corporate%20Responsibility/Food/UKNutritionalsRegularMozzarella.pdf

An original cheese and tomato on classic crust with regular mozzarella is given as 516 calories for a portion from a medium pizza. However, that's 3 slices and the pizza is 8, so the actual pizza is 1376 calories.

An authentic Italian pizza at 839 calories would be a reasonably healthy meal I would've thought (although I've never been in a Jamie's Italian). It's when you start doing Americanised things like deep pan, stuffed crust etc, that they get ridiculous.

[Geo_1875]

Anyway .... my advice to anybody on here under 40 is to start saving or investing in as good a private pension as you can possibly afford and advise your kids to do the same, because this headlong rush to force everybody to live to be 100 years old means you'll probably be lucky to qualify for a state pension at 80 ... enjoy your ridiculously long working life :aok:

I wouldn't worry about living too long. The Tories are only looking for a source of Soylent Green.

[Sylar]

Not sure where you got your dominos numbers?

From their website: https://corporate.dominos.co.uk/Media/Default/Corporate%20Responsibility/Food/UKNutritionalsRegularMozzarella.pdf

An original cheese and tomato on classic crust with regular mozzarella is given as 516 calories for a portion from a medium pizza. However, that's 3 slices and the pizza is 8, so the actual pizza is 1376 calories.

An authentic Italian pizza at 839 calories would be a reasonably healthy meal I would've thought (although I've never been in a Jamie's Italian). It's when you start doing Americanised things like deep pan, stuffed crust etc, that they get ridiculous.

I should have stressed in my own post that the analysis isn't mine - it was based on numbers put together by James Wong - I think it was based on a thin crust, tomato based pizza.

[NAE NOOKIE]

I detest the lazy tabloid expression, "nanny state".

The government's job is to bring in legislation to protect its citizens and to use raised taxation wisely.

Obesity is costing the NHS billions. Free choice is costing the country billions.

Why is alcohol restricted to over 18s? Should that law be changed?

You could take the " free choice" argument to ridiculous lengths, like speeding, gun control, class A drugs. Why not make driving on the left an individual's choice?

Laws are made for the benefit of society. If you want a pizza, you'll still be able to get one.

Its a fair point mate, but lets face it the examples you cite are all things where innocent parties would suffer if laws were not in place to make them illegal. If you want to take on the obesity crisis then instead of making sugary drinks and pizza more expensive why not make it illegal for anybody under 25 to own an X box or eccess Netflix ...... when I was a kid 40 odd years ago it was still possible to eat pizza buy sugary drinks and stuff your face with as many sweets as you wanted but fat kids were few and far between.

The difference was we didn't all sit in front of a computer or TV screen all day and we walked to school, we didn't get dropped at the door by mummy and daddy .... its a shame we all have to suffer because too many ( far from all ) kids don't take any exercise ..... FFS when I was a kid the loudest sound in the area around 8 or 9 at night was kids parents shouting for them to get their backsides home.

On a separate note ....... We have a Dominos in Galashiels and I've seen their prices ... bloody hell, anybody willing to pay that for a bloomin' pizza needs help with their mental health, never mind their physical health :greengrin

[Jones28]

I detest the lazy tabloid expression, "nanny state".

The government's job is to bring in legislation to protect its citizens and to use raised taxation wisely.

Obesity is costing the NHS billions. Free choice is costing the country billions.

Why is alcohol restricted to over 18s? Should that law be changed?

You could take the " free choice" argument to ridiculous lengths, like speeding, gun control, class A drugs. Why not make driving on the left an individual's choice?

Laws are made for the benefit of society. If you want a pizza, you'll still be able to get one.

Well said Radge

It's pretty obvious society would continually shoot itself in the foot if left unregulated and unchecked.

Nobody's stopping anyone from getting a pizza - all the government are trying to do is deter people.

[RyeSloan]

Denmark has already tried and abolished a pizza tax (well it was a fat tax that captured pizzas). It was abolished as they found the measures difficult to administer and that they had failed to have the intended effect.

I’m all for a healthier nation but these specific taxes are already proven to be pretty useless at achieving what they are being touted for.

That said I was at the airport recently and while sipping a beer I was watching the hordes of humanity going back and forth and it struck me just how many people were overweight....it was truly quite amazing.

I’m not sure what the answer is but there is probably a cultural and educational element to it. Yet as some have said I’ve read more and more recently about how fat people should be considered ‘normal’ (from a size perspective) so I’m thinking that actually the cultural element appears to be, if anything, going the wrong way. There was a specific piece on he BBC app not that long ago basically supporting the fact that the women, who were 15st and more, should be supported for their choice to be huge and that any negative comments around their weight was a problem of perception.

[JeMeSouviens]

Denmark has already tried and abolished a pizza tax (well it was a fat tax that captured pizzas). It was abolished as they found the measures difficult to administer and that they had failed to have the intended effect.

I’m all for a healthier nation but these specific taxes are already proven to be pretty useless at achieving what they are being touted for.

That said I was at the airport recently and while sipping a beer I was watching the hordes of humanity going back and forth and it struck me just how many people were overweight....it was truly quite amazing.

I’m not sure what the answer is but there is probably a cultural and educational element to it. Yet as some have said I’ve read more and more recently about how fat people should be considered ‘normal’ (from a size perspective) so I’m thinking that actually the cultural element appears to be, if anything, going the wrong way. There was a specific piece on he BBC app not that long ago basically supporting the fact that the women, who were 15st and more, should be supported for their choice to be huge and that any negative comments around their weight was a problem of perception.

I was in Las Vegas for a couple of days last year. After that, it really doesn't seem so bad here.

[JeMeSouviens]

What is the specific proposal here anyway? Has Scot gov actually announced anything?

One thing I would make mandatory is clearer labelling, eg. packaged foods and takeaway/restaurant menus should say in clear, readably sized print beside each item how many calories it contains. And not some fudged notion of calories/portion where the portion size is a 1/3 of the bottle or something. The actual number of calories in the item as sold.

[Scouse Hibee]

What is the specific proposal here anyway? Has Scot gov actually announced anything?

One thing I would make mandatory is clearer labelling, eg. packaged foods and takeaway/restaurant menus should say in clear, readably sized print beside each item how many calories it contains. And not some fudged notion of calories/portion where the portion size is a 1/3 of the bottle or something. The actual number of calories in the item as sold.

This, I like the Kafoodle app for such information. It's up to the restaurants to provide the info, the Vittoria Group and La Favorita has every dish and pizza on there giving you calorific info for total dish.

[beensaidbefore]

What are people’s thoughts on what is likely to be a highly emotive subject.

Personally I am a big supporter of Jamie Oliver and his mission to reduce child obesity and in turn obesity in general.

I know many others disagree with it for a variety of reasons.

PS i know it’s not a pizza tax but it’s quite an eye catching title


My issue is that we are very strongly condemned when we make a generalisations about sections of society, yet the government is quite happy to lump us altogether, for no other reason than, to avoid having to call individuals out for their lifestyle choices.

I am sick of being treated like an overweight alcoholic. Call people out where necessary. If I was harming children I should be held to account, parents of fat kids should be offered support an if they don't respond, some other action should be taken. i.e. Dietician, counsellor, shopper, ration book type thing.

"We don't want to hurt their feelings" shouldn't really come into it.

[beensaidbefore]

Denmark has already tried and abolished a pizza tax (well it was a fat tax that captured pizzas). It was abolished as they found the measures difficult to administer and that they had failed to have the intended effect.

I’m all for a healthier nation but these specific taxes are already proven to be pretty useless at achieving what they are being touted for.

That said I was at the airport recently and while sipping a beer I was watching the hordes of humanity going back and forth and it struck me just how many people were overweight....it was truly quite amazing.

I’m not sure what the answer is but there is probably a cultural and educational element to it. Yet as some have said I’ve read more and more recently about how fat people should be considered ‘normal’ (from a size perspective) so I’m thinking that actually the cultural element appears to be, if anything, going the wrong way. There was a specific piece on he BBC app not that long ago basically supporting the fact that the women, who were 15st and more, should be supported for their choice to be huge and that any negative comments around their weight was a problem of perception.

The problem summed up right there. Short sighted selfishness.

[Alex Trager]

Its a fair point mate, but lets face it the examples you cite are all things where innocent parties would suffer if laws were not in place to make them illegal. If you want to take on the obesity crisis then instead of making sugary drinks and pizza more expensive why not make it illegal for anybody under 25 to own an X box or eccess Netflix ...... when I was a kid 40 odd years ago it was still possible to eat pizza buy sugary drinks and stuff your face with as many sweets as you wanted but fat kids were few and far between.

The difference was we didn't all sit in front of a computer or TV screen all day and we walked to school, we didn't get dropped at the door by mummy and daddy .... its a shame we all have to suffer because too many ( far from all ) kids don't take any exercise ..... FFS when I was a kid the loudest sound in the area around 8 or 9 at night was kids parents shouting for them to get their backsides home.

On a separate note ....... We have a Dominos in Galashiels and I've seen their prices ... bloody hell, anybody willing to pay that for a bloomin' pizza needs help with their mental health, never mind their physical health :greengrin

A lot of good conversation on here, majority of it supporting the changes and a lot of it seeing the trend of our overweight nation.

A good idea that I agree with is subsidising the healthier food.

But with this particular point, I don’t see a whole lot of kids but from the ones I do, I would say obesity is a much more wide spread issue in adults. A lot of whom were probably in the bracket you mentioned above.

Food is essential. You need to have good knowledge and a healthy relationship with it.
Exercise or not.

Start with eating well and build from there.

I agree exercise is essential but I would wager if someone ate healthily and had a semi sedentary lifestyle they would be healthier than someone who ate crap and exercised all the time.

Being healthy is not a matter of being fat or skinny, you can be skinny and unhealthy. It still has a bad effect on your body.

We live in a world where sweeties have their own massive aisle in supermarkets. Same with crisps.

There is a lot if progress to be made here and thankfully we are making in roads

[Alex Trager]

Denmark has already tried and abolished a pizza tax (well it was a fat tax that captured pizzas). It was abolished as they found the measures difficult to administer and that they had failed to have the intended effect.

I’m all for a healthier nation but these specific taxes are already proven to be pretty useless at achieving what they are being touted for.

That said I was at the airport recently and while sipping a beer I was watching the hordes of humanity going back and forth and it struck me just how many people were overweight....it was truly quite amazing.

I’m not sure what the answer is but there is probably a cultural and educational element to it. Yet as some have said I’ve read more and more recently about how fat people should be considered ‘normal’ (from a size perspective) so I’m thinking that actually the cultural element appears to be, if anything, going the wrong way. There was a specific piece on he BBC app not that long ago basically supporting the fact that the women, who were 15st and more, should be supported for their choice to be huge and that any negative comments around their weight was a problem of perception.

The problem summed up right there. Short sighted selfishness.

It is a huge problem this.

I get very irked when there is outrage about folk being made to feel like being overweight is wrong.

A women had a kid a few years ago and she was a gym heid. Within a few weeks she was back in the gym and posted a photo of it. Her washboard stomach was back and she got shamed. It was mental.

How is that an issue? A lot of folk don’t have bodies like that, that is fair enough but for people to lay into her because she was in the gym and looking good, and it may make them feel down is mental.

If they were fit people who went to the gym but never had a ripped stomach they would be happy. This women obviously hardcores it. But those who do a normal amount, and their body represents that would be fine with her looming that way.

That is a totally different thing from models developing eating disorders and things like that of course.

[lapsedhibee]

My issue is that we are very strongly condemned when we make a generalisations about sections of society, yet the government is quite happy to lump us altogether, for no other reason than, to avoid having to call individuals out for their lifestyle choices.

I am sick of being treated like an overweight alcoholic. Call people out where necessary. If I was harming children I should be held to account, parents of fat kids should be offered support an if they don't respond, some other action should be taken. i.e. Dietician, counsellor, shopper, ration book type thing.

"We don't want to hurt their feelings" shouldn't really come into it.

:agree: totally. Body shaming should be a recognised Olympic sport, with generous Lottery grants going to those who show outstanding promise at it.


I would wager if someone ate healthily and had a semi sedentary lifestyle they would be healthier than someone who ate crap and exercised all the time.

I'll take that bet. If you lead an active physical life your body can deal with all sorts of crap. Most of the children referred to in a previous post who used to need shouted in at nightfall from their games (often fitba, typically poised at 42 or 43-all) ate more lard than broccoli!

[Alex Trager]

:agree: totally. Body shaming should be a recognised Olympic sport, with generous Lottery grants going to those who show outstanding promise at it.



I'll take that bet. If you lead an active physical life your body can deal with all sorts of crap. Most of the children referred to in a previous post who used to need shouted in at nightfall from their games (often fitba, typically poised at 42 or 43-all) ate more lard than broccoli!

Not that it can be proved but i’d like to see a persons quality of life between the two comparisons.

How are those said folk getting on now?
Still eating lard?
Still out playing football at night?

I’d bet most are overweight now. And unhealthy. [emoji57]

Your veg munchers though...

[lapsedhibee]

Not that it can be proved but i’d like to see a persons quality of life between the two comparisons.

How are those said folk getting on now?
Still eating lard?
Still out playing football at night?

I’d bet most are overweight now. And unhealthy. [emoji57]

Your veg munchers though...

The ones that have continued to be active (gardening and hillwalking rather than football when you're 70/80/90) are fine, thin as rakes.
The ones who gave up all sport/exercise and now spend their Saturday afternoons in the supermarket reading the packaging on fancy plants flown in from the other side of the world (or "superfoods" as they call them), zzzzzzzzzz ..... :wink:

[Pretty Boy]

My opinion is Jamie Oliver wants to look at his own unhealthy weight fluctuations before sticking his nose into other people's business.

[Mibbes Aye]

My wife is a teacher. She says that the kids, on the whole, when given responsibility for their own lunch almost always select horrendously unhealthy choices. Now whilst that may not lead to being overweight it still leads to them being unhealthy which is not good.

The other consequence is that going down the unhealthy route could be seen to be behaviour-forming. As the children become adults and their metabolisms start to change I suspect many will find those behavious do pile the pounds on.

[Colr]

What are people’s thoughts on what is likely to be a highly emotive subject.

Personally I am a big supporter of Jamie Oliver and his mission to reduce child obesity and in turn obesity in general.

I know many others disagree with it for a variety of reasons.

PS i know it’s not a pizza tax but it’s quite an eye catching title

I make my own pizzas - using Jamie’s recipe!

[Hibbyradge]

Its a fair point mate, but lets face it the examples you cite are all things where innocent parties would suffer if laws were not in place to make them illegal. If you want to take on the obesity crisis then instead of making sugary drinks and pizza more expensive why not make it illegal for anybody under 25 to own an X box or eccess Netflix ...... when I was a kid 40 odd years ago it was still possible to eat pizza buy sugary drinks and stuff your face with as many sweets as you wanted but fat kids were few and far between.

The difference was we didn't all sit in front of a computer or TV screen all day and we walked to school, we didn't get dropped at the door by mummy and daddy .... its a shame we all have to suffer because too many ( far from all ) kids don't take any exercise ..... FFS when I was a kid the loudest sound in the area around 8 or 9 at night was kids parents shouting for them to get their backsides home.

On a separate note ....... We have a Dominos in Galashiels and I've seen their prices ... bloody hell, anybody willing to pay that for a bloomin' pizza needs help with their mental health, never mind their physical health :greengrin

The children who are being brought up on fast food and sent to school with junk and sugary drinks are innocent too.

And they're really the ones who this legislation is designed to protect. I doubt it will make a huge difference but doing nothing isn't an option.

Agreed about Dominoes, by the way. :greengrin

[Steve-O]

What is the specific proposal here anyway? Has Scot gov actually announced anything?

One thing I would make mandatory is clearer labelling, eg. packaged foods and takeaway/restaurant menus should say in clear, readably sized print beside each item how many calories it contains. And not some fudged notion of calories/portion where the portion size is a 1/3 of the bottle or something. The actual number of calories in the item as sold.

Agreed. Doing a bit of calorie counting myself at the moment and some of the things I eat / drink don't exactly make it easy at times! As you say, some detail on 'per serving' but a 'serving' is 1/5th of what's in the packet etc.

A clear indication of how many calories you are eating / drinking if you have the ENTIRE thing would be good - and potentially off putting in some cases. Though I tend to do it less now, it was not unknown for me to eat an entire takeaway pizza at a time without thinking much of it - I now see that eating such an item would use up about 75% of what I needed, calorie wise, in the day! It's certainly made me think twice about eating such amounts now and I go for either sharing the pizza or getting a smaller one instead.

So maybe price is not the only motivator.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Agreed. Doing a bit of calorie counting myself at the moment and some of the things I eat / drink don't exactly make it easy at times! As you say, some detail on 'per serving' but a 'serving' is 1/5th of what's in the packet etc.

A clear indication of how many calories you are eating / drinking if you have the ENTIRE thing would be good - and potentially off putting in some cases. Though I tend to do it less now, it was not unknown for me to eat an entire takeaway pizza at a time without thinking much of it - I now see that eating such an item would use up about 75% of what I needed, calorie wise, in the day! It's certainly made me think twice about eating such amounts now and I go for either sharing the pizza or getting a smaller one instead.

So maybe price is not the only motivator.

Agree with this completely.

I have madr different choices at mcdonalds and another place i was in recently due to the calorie content being quite prominent.

I do takr slight issue with the 'its too expensive to eat healthily argument'. Is fruit, veg and pasta really that expensive? Or is it that too many lazy ******* just cant be bothered to cook, and so ready meals etc are just easier?

[Pretty Boy]

Agree with this completely.

I have madr different choices at mcdonalds and another place i was in recently due to the calorie content being quite prominent.

I do takr slight issue with the 'its too expensive to eat healthily argument'. Is fruit, veg and pasta really that expensive? Or is it that too many lazy ******* just cant be bothered to cook, and so ready meals etc are just easier?

Done with a bit thought and planning eating healthily is far, far cheaper in the long run. I could feed my family for 5 days for the price of a large Dominos pizza, give or takr a couple of pounds, no bother.

[Alex Trager]

Done with a bit thought and planning eating healthily is far, far cheaper in the long run. I could feed my family for 5 days for the price of a large Dominos pizza, give or takr a couple of pounds, no bother.

Aye see I did say above that subsidies should be brought into consideration and whilst I still agree with that it is true that if you plan your week you save a lot of money.

The thing is, if you buy a cut up apple it’s a pound whereas for another £1 - i like pink ladies :) - you can buy six apples. That’s still a £4 saving.

Same goes with salad bags and things. Buy whole lettuces and it’s cheaper than a bag of pre made salad. You can mix it up with cucumber and tomatoes etc too. The issue is laziness in this country.

[green&left]

Done with a bit thought and planning eating healthily is far, far cheaper in the long run. I could feed my family for 5 days for the price of a large Dominos pizza, give or takr a couple of pounds, no bother.

Agree but not everyone can cook though. And if you ban dominoes and chippys having BOGOFs processed pish from farmfoods, morrisons, iceland etc will still be there.


Laziness, education and affordability are more likely the cause of obesity than a pizza franchise having a promotion on a Tuesday and Tescos selling 5 cookies for a quid. Climate an issue to perhaps? Very easy to eat healthy and exercise when its light and the suns shining. Different ball-game when it's freezing cold and pitch black in the middle of January at 3pm.

[Pretty Boy]

Aye see I did say above that subsidies should be brought into consideration and whilst I still agree with that it is true that if you plan your week you save a lot of money.

The thing is, if you buy a cut up apple it’s a pound whereas for another £1 - i like pink ladies :) - you can buy six apples. That’s still a £4 saving.

Same goes with salad bags and things. Buy whole lettuces and it’s cheaper than a bag of pre made salad. You can mix it up with cucumber and tomatoes etc too. The issue is laziness in this country.

I think education is the key. A lot of people seem to have become so used to opening a packet and chucking it in the microwace or picking up their phone when it comes to dinner that many have lost basic skills. Cooking from scratch can be easy, cheap and quick.

As an example when I make a sausage casserole I always chuck a couple of cups of lentils in. Cheap, good for you and they both bulk out the meal and give a really nice texture. It takes abput 10 minutes to prepare the dish then the odd stir whilst it cooks for 45 minutes. Most supermarkets have fruit and veg on offer pretty much as soon as you go in the door, Tesco had carrots, apples and new potatoes for 49p a bag this week. If I see that I plan my meals around it. Also when I buy a chicken a small bird would probably do but I buy a bigger one because the leftover meat is perfect for sandwiches and then the base for a chicken salad, chicken wraps, chicken stir fry or any other manner of chicken somethings the next night.

There's thousands of vudget friendly recipes online, maybe the NHS and government need to work together to get them into a place where people see them.

[Alex Trager]

I think education is the key. A lot of people seem to have become so used to opening a packet and chucking it in the microwace or picking up their phone when it comes to dinner that many have lost basic skills. Cooking from scratch can be easy, cheap and quick.

As an example when I make a sausage casserole I always chuck a couple of cups of lentils in. Cheap, good for you and they both bulk out the meal and give a really nice texture. It takes abput 10 minutes to prepare the dish then the odd stir whilst it cooks for 45 minutes. Most supermarkets have fruit and veg on offer pretty much as soon as you go in the door, Tesco had carrots, apples and new potatoes for 49p a bag this week. If I see that I plan my meals around it. Also when I buy a chicken a small bird would probably do but I buy a bigger one because the leftover meat is perfect for sandwiches and then the base for a chicken salad, chicken wraps, chicken stir fry or any other manner of chicken somethings the next night.

There's thousands of vudget friendly recipes online, maybe the NHS and government need to work together to get them into a place where people see them.

Ansolutely mate.
We plan our week before we go shopping and then purchase the ingredients we need.

Strip chickens all the time, many would throw them out.

I feel like everyone must know how to do this, but it’s clear they don’t.

It just takes a bit more effort and planning, especially so if you’ve got a family I imagine, but it can easily be done.

[One Day Soon]

What exactly is the proposal? And if it somehow targets pizza why won't it also target chippy food, kebabs, Chinese and Indian takeaways etc?

BTW, what passes for pizza in this country is generally a joke.

[calumhibee1]

Agree but not everyone can cook though. And if you ban dominoes and chippys having BOGOFs processed pish from farmfoods, morrisons, iceland etc will still be there.


Laziness, education and affordability are more likely the cause of obesity than a pizza franchise having a promotion on a Tuesday and Tescos selling 5 cookies for a quid. Climate an issue to perhaps? Very easy to eat healthy and exercise when its light and the suns shining. Different ball-game when it's freezing cold and pitch black in the middle of January at 3pm.

Your last point about climate is very true. The idea of getting home from work in the winter having not seen the daylight all day, can’t feel my fingers etc then having chicken with broccoli and green beans for tea etc doesn’t sound nearly as appealing as a pizza or something. But in the summer the idea of pizzas, pies etc don’t sound as appealing to me as they do in the winter.

[Geo_1875]

Done with a bit thought and planning eating healthily is far, far cheaper in the long run. I could feed my family for 5 days for the price of a large Dominos pizza, give or takr a couple of pounds, no bother.

I assume you're talking about the ingredients costing the same as a pizza. Add in cooking time and additional costs and it comes to a lot more. Unless you're unemployed and your family are cats.

[lapsedhibee]

I assume you're talking about the ingredients costing the same as a pizza. Add in cooking time and additional costs and it comes to a lot more. Unless you're unemployed and your family are cats.

Think PB was suggesting that you do the cooking yourself, rather than hire in a chef.

[Stick]

Sorry to interrupt this discussion, but amazed that within a few hours of the word dominoes and pizza being mentioned here, every page is full of "Pappa Johns", pizza adverts. Wasn't logged on at the time. I had no idea that the advertisers actually trawled discussion boards to place their adds.
Talk about being bombarded with propaganda.

[Hibbyradge]

Sorry to interrupt this discussion, but amazed that within a few hours of the word dominoes and pizza being mentioned here, every page is full of "Pappa Johns", pizza adverts. Wasn't logged on at the time. I had no idea that the advertisers actually trawled discussion boards to place their adds.
Talk about being bombarded with propaganda.

Pay 20p a week (equivalent) for Private membership and you won't see ads. :wink:

[Future17]

Pay 20p a week (equivalent) for Private membership and you won't see ads. :wink:

First a tax for pizza and now a tax for no pizza!

[danhibees1875]

I think education and laziness play a part to an extent - but it's also just a bit harder at the moment because we live in a time of luxury where takeaway options are plentiful and easy, sweet treats are no longer treats and they're readily and cheapily availabile on every corner.

Someone being branded as lazy here wouldn't be as unhealthy if they were just as lazy but alive 100 years ago. People just have the means these days to eat whatever they want whenever they want, generally.

I'm all for government intervention when needs must. Although I'm not actually sure what the proposal is in this instance - I googled "pizza tax" and Google just sent me back to this thread.

[Hibbyradge]

First a tax for pizza and now a tax for no pizza!

Very good. :top marks

[lapsedhibee]

Although I'm not actually sure what the proposal is in this instance - I googled "pizza tax" and Google just sent me back to this thread.

"Fat tax"

[steakbake]

I think education and laziness play a part to an extent - but it's also just a bit harder at the moment because we live in a time of luxury where takeaway options are plentiful and easy, sweet treats are no longer treats and they're readily and cheapily availabile on every corner.

Someone being branded as lazy here wouldn't be as unhealthy if they were just as lazy but alive 100 years ago. People just have the means these days to eat whatever they want whenever they want, generally.

I'm all for government intervention when needs must. Although I'm not actually sure what the proposal is in this instance - I googled "pizza tax" and Google just sent me back to this thread.

I'm with you on this. Pizza tax is so far non-existent and the ScotGov policy direction will be outlined in July. It didn't stop Jim Delahunt making a delahunt of himself and angrily tweeting the First Minister to demand why he can no longer get 2 for 1 pizzas.

Something needs done. It's a terrible shame to see kids - very young kids some times - bloated from too much food and not enough exercise. Adults, too - but I totally understand life is complicated and food can be problematic.

Beyond that, I don't buy the 'it's cheaper to have a chippy' kind of perspective and you know, if you don't have the skills, it's not rocket science. There'll always be folk that need a bit of an extra hand and cannot look after themselves, but there's a difference between them and those who just can't be bothered. I once worked in a job in which part of the activity of the organisation was to teach people with learning difficulties how to cook and from there, to run a cafe. It was amazing - independence and skills that people had.

In many cases for other adults, it comes down to life skills - if an adult of standard mental and physical capabilities can't make a couple of basics to feed themselves (boil pasta, add sauce, chop veg), then really they're only a little bit further on from being toilet trained and tying their laces.

[Steve-O]

Agree with this completely.

I have madr different choices at mcdonalds and another place i was in recently due to the calorie content being quite prominent.

I do takr slight issue with the 'its too expensive to eat healthily argument'. Is fruit, veg and pasta really that expensive? Or is it that too many lazy ******* just cant be bothered to cook, and so ready meals etc are just easier?

Here in NZ, I'd say it actually IS quite expensive to eat healthily. Unlike the UK, we have to pay GST (i.e. VAT) of 15% on food too - I believe VAT is not charged on some/all food in the UK? Certainly a supermarket shop here at the current exchange rate is way cheaper in the UK.

Also, you can get Dominos pizza here for the equivalent of a fiver (pounds) most of the time! It is truly bizarre how expensive it is in the UK.

Another interesting comparison here though is that 'ready made meals' seem to MUCH less popular / available / good than they are in the UK. There are a lot of takeaways around and Kiwis are as bad as anyone else at eating them, but in terms of cooking their own food, they are much more likely to actually cook from scratch than in the UK.

I don't know if there's a UK equivalent, but we get a food box delivered fortnightly which has 3-5 meals in it - you get all the ingredients and the recipes and cook it yourself. It's good for actually eating half decent meals, trying new things, and not having to think of what meals to have yourself!

Overall though, I think it's right to say that price is one thing, but laziness / convenience is a huge factor too. I'm as bad as anyone. If I can't cook it from start to finish in about 15 minutes, I really hate the thought of doing the cooking!!

[Alex Trager]

A GP on breakfast this morning saying that in England 1 in 25 children at the age of 11 is severely obese. The GP said these children were 16 stone/100 KG, roughly...

That is phenomenal. The GP said they should be roughly less than HALF that weight. I am 25 and 25 KG lighter than these 11 year olds. These stats are frightening. They did mention that the sugar tax was helping introduce measures like giving them quality breakfasts for example.

[Colr]

A GP on breakfast this morning saying that in England 1 in 25 children at the age of 11 is severely obese. The GP said these children were 16 stone/100 KG, roughly...

That is phenomenal. The GP said they should be roughly less than HALF that weight. I am 25 and 25 KG lighter than these 11 year olds. These stats are frightening. They did mention that the sugar tax was helping introduce measures like giving them quality breakfasts for example.

Sounds a bit of an exaggeration but my experi nce buying school clothes for my 12 year old suggests some truth. They are all enormous. Luckily Markies has started doing slim fit.

[Alex Trager]

Sounds a bit of an exaggeration but my experi nce buying school clothes for my 12 year old suggests some truth. They are all enormous. Luckily Markies has started doing slim fit.

Tbf they did say 1 in 25

[Colr]

Tbf they did say 1 in 25

True

[Mibbes Aye]

Tbf they did say 1 in 25

If that figure is true of the other home nations then that is c.30,000 eleven year-olds in total. It seems reasonable to assume that surrounding ages aren't wildly different.

That all adds up to a massive problem for health services and social care services. Severe obesity at that age is difficult to remedy and change, as behaviours are becoming established.

The cost of NHS interventions for overweight and obesity-related ill health is somewhere around the £7bn mark - yes, billion.

The projected overall cost to wider society is closer to the £30bn mark.

This and the costs of a population living far longer but with one or more health conditions has totally changed the paradigm for health and social care. There simply needs to be a fundamental rethink about what we want and what we can fund - the status quo isn't managing now and certainly won't work in ten years time or longer.

[Alex Trager]

If that figure is true of the other home nations then that is c.30,000 eleven year-olds in total. It seems reasonable to assume that surrounding ages aren't wildly different.

That all adds up to a massive problem for health services and social care services. Severe obesity at that age is difficult to remedy and change, as behaviours are becoming established.

The cost of NHS interventions for overweight and obesity-related ill health is somewhere around the £7bn mark - yes, billion.

The projected overall cost to wider society is closer to the £30bn mark.

This and the costs of a population living far longer but with one or more health conditions has totally changed the paradigm for health and social care. There simply needs to be a fundamental rethink about what we want and what we can fund - the status quo isn't managing now and certainly won't work in ten years time or longer.

Absolutely. This is the reasoning I use when arguing the positives of these new taxes. It is a serious problem we are facing in this country and it needs to be addressed.