The Israelis

[Betty Boop]

Thought the Iraeli butchers deserved a mention gunning down Palestinian protesters at the Gaza border, 60 dead and thousands injured.

[Stranraer]

Watched Louis Theroux's "The Ultra Zionists" and it was scary how many Israeli's believe that the Palestinians are second class citizens. Yesterday's events just prove how brutal the Israeli's are.

[Geo_1875]

Israel's Ambassador to London on R4 this morning reckoned that live fire was justified because Palestinians approached the fence with wirecutters.

What an absolute ****ing Nazi. There is no other word for him.

[pollution]

I have watched this type of Israeli army behaviour over many years and I am truly astonished that they get away with it.

The soldiers must have a collective blood lust.

The most incredulous fact is that they are doing to rioting civilians what the Nazis did to Jews in 1930/40's.

If one Nazi soldier was murdered by a Jew then 10 were executed in return. The irony of it. Yet not one soldier has died in the riots, I believe.

Trump would have been warned that the riots would happen with the re location of their embassy against all international protocol

and he went ahead anyway. He is, in my opinion, cruel and utterly unconcerned.

I stipulate I am referring to some members of the Israeli army and not to Jews or Judaism per se.

[JeMeSouviens]

I have watched this type of Israeli army behaviour over many years and I am truly astonished that they get away with it.

The soldiers must have a collective blood lust.

The most incredulous fact is that they are doing to rioting civilians what the Nazis did to Jews in 1930/40's.

If one Nazi soldier was murdered by a Jew then 10 were executed in return. The irony of it. Yet not one soldier has died in the riots, I believe.

Trump would have been warned that the riots would happen with the re location of their embassy against all international protocol

and he went ahead anyway. He is, in my opinion, cruel and utterly unconcerned.

I stipulate I am referring to some members of the Israeli army and not to Jews or Judaism per se.

I'm not sure about that. It's clear the commanders (ultimately Netanyahu) of the soldiers are callous *******s who see Palestinian children as easy targets to make their point. Unfortunately, on the Palestinian side, Hamas sees their own children as expendable martyrs to make their point.

The whole thing is sickening.

[ekhibee]

Yitzhak Rabin was a good leader, the best the Israelis ever had, but he was assassinated by a right wing fanatic. He had tried to make peace with the Palestinians and signed the Oslo Accord with Yasser Arafat. From then on its been one right wing fanatical leader after another. Trump won't give a ****- it's a long, long way from the rednecks that voted him in.

[Hibrandenburg]

Israel and the Jewish people have made the full circle, they've now gone from being victims to become the perpetrators. History will not remember them well.

[Beefster]

Israel and the Jewish people have made the full circle, they've now gone from being victims to become the perpetrators. History will not remember them well.

I’m not sure if you meant it like that but it’s not ‘the Jewish people’. It’s Israel. There are plenty of Jews who are appalled at what is going on.

[IGRIGI]

Watched Louis Theroux's "The Ultra Zionists" and it was scary how many Israeli's believe that the Palestinians are second class citizens. Yesterday's events just prove how brutal the Israeli's are.

That's an interesting documentary, for many if the Palestinians don't like it they can go to Jordan.

[Pretty Boy]

I’m not sure if you meant it like that but it’s not ‘the Jewish people’. It’s Israel. There are plenty of Jews who are appalled at what is going on.

I was friends at uni with a guy who was Jewish. He was raised in Chicago but his Dad was from Beit Shemesh in Israel, very close to the West Bank, and he had spent his formative years there. His paternal fanily were all ultra right wing and strongly believed in the ideals of Zionism. His Dad had been ostracised because he had at 1st began to question his parents and grandparents beliefs and ended up being a pretty outspoken critic of Israeli policy within his community. There was a killing in Beit Shemesh in the 90s of schoolgirls by a Jordanian soldier and after that his families stance hardened and he was eventually forced to leave for the USA and later Belgium. He had huge respect for his Dad and often spoke of his confusion growing up when he compared his life to the Palestinian children he encountered on a daily basis.

I think he found it hard being both Jewish and a critic of Israel. He was hugely excited to return to Tel Aviv and Jerusalem for a summer but felt guilty about enjoying it. He was treated with pretty open distrust by both Muslims, he was also a pretty vocal critic of Hamas, and other Jews within our social circle.

There's no real point to my post other than to reaffirm your point that many Jews are appaled by the actions of the Israeli Government.

[Hibrandenburg]

I’m not sure if you meant it like that but it’s not ‘the Jewish people’. It’s Israel. There are plenty of Jews who are appalled at what is going on.

I actually did mean it like that. The history of the Jewish people and that of the state of Israel are entwined in a similar way to the Germans and the Nazis. Many people will be able to make the distinction but most won't.

[LustForLeith]

I’m going to put my hands up and confess I have no idea what’s going on

[NAE NOOKIE]

The whole thing is a bloody nightmare and it doesn't look like there will ever be a solution.

Trumps frankly insane decision to relocate the US embassy to Jerusalem is proving to be the catalyst for murder and maiming everybody 'apart from him apparently' knew it would be. To the Palestinians it was like the final nail being hammered into the coffin of any hope that the US could or would ever play the part of peace broker in the middle east.

Trump I presume will have nothing to say about Israel's illegal under international law occupation of the west bank ... the law being that a country ( any country ) which occupies part of another country as a result of conflict cannot use it to re settle its own population, something Israel has been doing for decades with its various ruling parties paying little more than lip service to removing Jewish settlers. The practice is illegal under international law almost totally as a result of the Nazis policy of 'Lebensraum' ... the policy aimed at removing the indigenous populations of eastern Europe and replacing them with ethnic Germans ... how ironic is that?

As for Jerusalem itself ..... given its importance to three of the worlds most popular religions, and the inevitable conflict that was going to surround it, what should have happened is that at the end of WWII the city should have been declared an independent state in its own right run by a committee of Jewish, Christian and Muslim administrators appointed by the UN .... It might not have been perfect, but surely better than the mess we have now. Hell, even the Americans saw the sense of ensuring that none of its 50 states could lay claim to being the home of the country's capital.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I’m not sure if you meant it like that but it’s not ‘the Jewish people’. It’s Israel. There are plenty of Jews who are appalled at what is going on.

Correct Beefster; the 51 year illegal occupation has been perpetrated by Israel not Jews, and many Israelis are appalled at what their government has done in that time. However, enough Israelis are happy enough to ensure it continues. That said, this is a political issue, not a religious one. Many Jews across the world oppose the occupation. The latest killings are a disgrace; Netanyahu is an utter *******.

[Hibrandenburg]

Correct Beefster; the 51 year illegal occupation has been perpetrated by Israel not Jews, and many Israelis are appalled at what their government has done in that time. However, enough Israelis are happy enough to ensure it continues. That said, this is a political issue, not a religious one. Many Jews across the world oppose the occupation. The latest killings are a disgrace; Netanyahu is an utter *******.

I'm not sure it can be simply brushed off as political and non religious when the political basis for the state of Israel is that Israel is the promised land for God's chosen people. When that principle lies at the bottom of territorial politics, then it's clearly steered by religious belief.

[Ryan69]

Israel's Ambassador to London on R4 this morning reckoned that live fire was justified because Palestinians approached the fence with wirecutters.

What an absolute ****ing Nazi. There is no other word for him.

So I suppose they just just allow potential terrorists to cut the fence and let the suicide bombers in.
Theres absolutely no reason why they should be at the fence in the first place.

Im pretty sure under the rules of engagement...They acted within it(when said person could have a bomb attached to himself)

[One Day Soon]

I'm not sure it can be simply brushed off as political and non religious when the political basis for the state of Israel is that Israel is the promised land for God's chosen people. When that principle lies at the bottom of territorial politics, then it's clearly steered by religious belief.


Conflating Israeli with Jewish is very wrong. If everyone in Israel is responsible then you need to lump in all the Arab population, the non-practising and atheist Jews, the Druze population...

Not everyone who lives in Israel is Jewish and not every Jew agrees with the policies and actions of successive Israeli governments. This is not a product of Jewish religious belief, just as the actions of any given Egyptian government are not matters of Islamic religious belief. To illustrate this further, there are some very fundamentalist Jews who believe that the present state of Israel should not exist at all. Essentially they believe it is heretical and blasphemous to have an Israeli state that was created by man rather than by God.

Israel has had a succession of deeply weird governments sustained by mosaic coalitions of various core and splinter political parties. If you want to find one of the core reasons why peace has not been found between Israel and the Palestinian people, looking at the Israeli electoral system takes you a very long way down that path. Every Israeli Premier is basically held to ransom by quite small but extremist political parties in their Knesset due to a proportional representation system with a threshold of just 3.25% of the vote in order to start winning seats. It's made even worse by that fact that nutty political parties are allowed to remain separate but become 'alliances' for electoral purposes - so that if your brand of xenophobia and my brand of nationalism bundle together for electoral purposes then your 2% of the vote and my 1.25% of the vote get counted together as one bundle so that we qualify for seats.

So any unprincipled Premier willing to conduct brutal policies is more than enabled by a combination of the legitimising of his policies in consequence of the terrorist acts of Hamas, Hezbollah etc, the regional sense of encirclement by hostile states and the barking willingness of minority parties and their demagogue leaders to support authoritarian state violence and repression.

It is a horrible, seemingly endless conflict that appears to have no sensible resolution that all sides will sign up to. But it is not a product of being Jewish or being Islamic. Neither has it been made any easier by the key actors and the region being used as proxies for both super and not-so-super powers from outside. Or by the opportunism of Sadat at Camp David.

[Stranraer]

So I suppose they just just allow potential terrorists to cut the fence and let the suicide bombers in.
Theres absolutely no reason why they should be at the fence in the first place.

Im pretty sure under the rules of engagement...They acted within it(when said person could have a bomb attached to himself)

Suicide bombers my arse. Innocent children who's worst crime is probably throwing a pebble at the soldiers.

[Bristolhibby]

Conflating Israeli with Jewish is very wrong. If everyone in Israel is responsible then you need to lump in all the Arab population, the non-practising and atheist Jews, the Druze population...

Not everyone who lives in Israel is Jewish and not every Jew agrees with the policies and actions of successive Israeli governments. This is not a product of Jewish religious belief, just as the actions of any given Egyptian government are not matters of Islamic religious belief. To illustrate this further, there are some very fundamentalist Jews who believe that the present state of Israel should not exist at all. Essentially they believe it is heretical and blasphemous to have an Israeli state that was created by man rather than by God.

Israel has had a succession of deeply weird governments sustained by mosaic coalitions of various core and splinter political parties. If you want to find one of the core reasons why peace has not been found between Israel and the Palestinian people, looking at the Israeli electoral system takes you a very long way down that path. Every Israeli Premier is basically held to ransom by quite small but extremist political parties in their Knesset due to a proportional representation system with a threshold of just 3.25% of the vote in order to start winning seats. It's made even worse by that fact that nutty political parties are allowed to remain separate but become 'alliances' for electoral purposes - so that if your brand of xenophobia and my brand of nationalism bundle together for electoral purposes then your 2% of the vote and my 1.25% of the vote get counted together as one bundle so that we qualify for seats.

So any unprincipled Premier willing to conduct brutal policies is more than enabled by a combination of the legitimising of his policies in consequence of the terrorist acts of Hamas, Hezbollah etc, the regional sense of encirclement by hostile states and the barking willingness of minority parties and their demagogue leaders to support authoritarian state violence and repression.

It is a horrible, seemingly endless conflict that appears to have no sensible resolution that all sides will sign up to. But it is not a product of being Jewish or being Islamic. Neither has it been made any easier by the key actors and the region being used as proxies for both super and not-so-super powers from outside. Or by the opportunism of Sadat at Camp David.

Intresting post. Thanks.

My small thoughts is that the Israelis have the right to exist, and protect themselves. The way they go about it is WAAAAY over the top.

I do think that the collective memory of the Holocaust, their foundation and the fact that their neighbours want them gone, does nothing to reign in the crazy “kill em all, we are Gods people” element.

J

[Geo_1875]

So I suppose they just just allow potential terrorists to cut the fence and let the suicide bombers in.
Theres absolutely no reason why they should be at the fence in the first place.

Im pretty sure under the rules of engagement...They acted within it(when said person could have a bomb attached to himself)

Indiscriminate, deadly force against "potential terrorists". That sounds a bit like the Para's battle plan on Bloody Sunday. They must surely have rubber bullets and water-cannon available for these situations (they do as they've used them before).

[Ryan69]

Suicide bombers my arse. Innocent children who's worst crime is probably throwing a pebble at the soldiers.

Im pretty sure there is no evidence of children being killed at that part.

If there so happened tobe...Why the hell would any parent allow them there in the first place?
Unless Hamas put them there of course.

[Stranraer]

Im pretty sure there is no evidence of children being killed at that part.

If there so happened tobe...Why the hell would any parent allow them there in the first place?
Unless Hamas put them there of course.

I partly agree with you re: why would the parents allow them there, but I personally don't believe hamas would put them there. There's probably a lot of angry young men that want to go and protest at Israel's provocative moves.

[Ryan69]

I partly agree with you re: why would the parents allow them there, but I personally don't believe hamas would put them there. There's probably a lot of angry young men that want to go and protest at Israel's provocative moves.

It has been widely reported(not in the mainstream media though) that Hamas have been brainwashing certain kids,and sending them tobe suicide bombers.
Absolutely sickening though to shoot a child though..

[Hibrandenburg]

Conflating Israeli with Jewish is very wrong. If everyone in Israel is responsible then you need to lump in all the Arab population, the non-practising and atheist Jews, the Druze population...

Not everyone who lives in Israel is Jewish and not every Jew agrees with the policies and actions of successive Israeli governments. This is not a product of Jewish religious belief, just as the actions of any given Egyptian government are not matters of Islamic religious belief. To illustrate this further, there are some very fundamentalist Jews who believe that the present state of Israel should not exist at all. Essentially they believe it is heretical and blasphemous to have an Israeli state that was created by man rather than by God.

Israel has had a succession of deeply weird governments sustained by mosaic coalitions of various core and splinter political parties. If you want to find one of the core reasons why peace has not been found between Israel and the Palestinian people, looking at the Israeli electoral system takes you a very long way down that path. Every Israeli Premier is basically held to ransom by quite small but extremist political parties in their Knesset due to a proportional representation system with a threshold of just 3.25% of the vote in order to start winning seats. It's made even worse by that fact that nutty political parties are allowed to remain separate but become 'alliances' for electoral purposes - so that if your brand of xenophobia and my brand of nationalism bundle together for electoral purposes then your 2% of the vote and my 1.25% of the vote get counted together as one bundle so that we qualify for seats.

So any unprincipled Premier willing to conduct brutal policies is more than enabled by a combination of the legitimising of his policies in consequence of the terrorist acts of Hamas, Hezbollah etc, the regional sense of encirclement by hostile states and the barking willingness of minority parties and their demagogue leaders to support authoritarian state violence and repression.

It is a horrible, seemingly endless conflict that appears to have no sensible resolution that all sides will sign up to. But it is not a product of being Jewish or being Islamic. Neither has it been made any easier by the key actors and the region being used as proxies for both super and not-so-super powers from outside. Or by the opportunism of Sadat at Camp David.

I understand that the Middle East conflict is complex and that many factors fuel the fire of the cycle of hate, but to say that religion is not the basis for all the trouble is frankly deflecting from reality and not helpful in finding a solution. All 3 major religions in the area have a claim to holy sites in the area and until they can agree to how to resolve their differences then all political solutions are doomed to failure.

[Frazerbob]

I’m not sure if you meant it like that but it’s not ‘the Jewish people’. It’s Israel. There are plenty of Jews who are appalled at what is going on.

Likewise, there are plenty Israelis who are equally appalled. A bit like there are plenty in our country who despise Westminster, a huge number of people in or from Israel hate their government. I’ve visited Israel twice and have many friends from there. Thankfully both visits were during relatively peaceful times. Incredibly beautiful and complex part of the World but from my experience, nobody I spoke to about the ongoing conflict agreed with the actions of their government. In fact many of the young adults I met there have left and now live in London, Germany or the US.

[Frazerbob]

I actually did mean it like that. The history of the Jewish people and that of the state of Israel are entwined in a similar way to the Germans and the Nazis. Many people will be able to make the distinction but most won't.

I think most people with half a brain can differentiate between the Nazis and modern day Germany.

[makaveli1875]

Was pretty ignorant to this until recently but have read up on it a bit . With that in mind i think its a bit brutal to lay all the blame on the Israeli side . Israel has been under attack constantly from the secondit declared independence until now . Has had to fight off wars launched by all of its much larger neighbours at regular intervals , had its athletes mudrered infront of the whole world during an olympic games . Has had to contend with rocket barrages and suicide bombings at everything from weddings to pizza palours . But hey Israeli = bad , palestinian = good

[RyeSloan]

Was pretty ignorant to this until recently but have read up on it a bit . With that in mind i think its a bit brutal to lay all the blame on the Israeli side . Israel has been under attack constantly from the secondit declared independence until now . Has had to fight off wars launched by all of its much larger neighbours at regular intervals , had its athletes mudrered infront of the whole world during an olympic games . Has had to contend with rocket barrages and suicide bombings at everything from weddings to pizza palours . But hey Israeli = bad , palestinian = good

The flip side is that they have hardly been non inflammatory themselves.

But I get your point and it’s pretty ludicrous that so many people seem wedded to the idea that there is a simple good / bad split and then bend any view on events to fit their underlying position.

[JimBHibees]

Was pretty ignorant to this until recently but have read up on it a bit . With that in mind i think its a bit brutal to lay all the blame on the Israeli side . Israel has been under attack constantly from the secondit declared independence until now . Has had to fight off wars launched by all of its much larger neighbours at regular intervals , had its athletes mudrered infront of the whole world during an olympic games . Has had to contend with rocket barrages and suicide bombings at everything from weddings to pizza palours . But hey Israeli = bad , palestinian = good

Count the casualties on both sides then reevaluate.

[Hibernia&Alba]

So I suppose they just just allow potential terrorists to cut the fence and let the suicide bombers in.
Theres absolutely no reason why they should be at the fence in the first place.

Im pretty sure under the rules of engagement...They acted within it(when said person could have a bomb attached to himself)

**** off. 'Potential terrorists', as opposed to the Israeli state, which is a fully paid up terrorist organisation? Kill anyone you don't like and then shout 'potential terrorist'. Israel is responsible for far more terrorism than any Palestinian ever has. How about they obey international law for starters, ending an illegal occupation and blockade?

[Hibernia&Alba]

Murdering doctors who were trying to help injured peaceful protesters. What will be done about these terrorists?


https://youtu.be/YLWTNefVAKU

[MagicSwirlingShip]

Murdering doctors who were trying to help injured peaceful protesters. What will be done about these terrorists?


https://youtu.be/YLWTNefVAKU

In all likelihood, absolutely nothing.

[Pretty Boy]

I see Argentina have called off their friendly with Israel due to be played in Jerusalem. At least in part due to pressure from some of the players.

[Hibs Class]

I see Argentina have called off their friendly with Israel due to be played in Jerusalem. At least in part due to pressure from some of the players.


Not surprisingly that hasn't gone down too well in Israel:

But Israel's defence minister said it was "too bad" Argentina's footballers did not "withstand the pressure of the Israeli-hating inciters".

"We will not yield before a pack of anti-Semitic terrorist supporters," Avigdor Lierberman tweeted.

[Stranraer]

I wish those of us who oppose the Israeli state's actions / support the rights of the Palestinians would stop being called anti-Semitic.

[The Tubs]

I wish those of us who oppose the Israeli state's actions / support the rights of the Palestinians would stop being called anti-Semitic.


I thought I would check my understanding of the word “Semite” and, sure enough, my dictionary responded with:

”Definition of Semite1a : a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs b : a descendant of these peoples
2: a member of a modern people speaking a Semitic (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Semitic) language”

The Israeli authorities seem to be more anti-Semitic than most other folk.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I wish those of us who oppose the Israeli state's actions / support the rights of the Palestinians would stop being called anti-Semitic.

The right wing in Israel are particularly fond of conflating criticism of the occupation and anti-Jewish racism. It's nonsense and is a blatant attempt to silence people: if you criticise what Israel does, you hate Jews, so keep quiet. It's a disgraceful tactic; one which can't be allowed to succeed.

[IngolstadtHarry]

The right wing in Israel are particularly fond of conflating criticism of the occupation and anti-Jewish racism. It's nonsense and is a blatant attempt to silence people: if you criticise what Israel does, you hate Jews, so keep quiet. It's a disgraceful tactic; one which can't be allowed to succeed.

Unfortunately, it isn't just the right-wing - this is a standard tactic of Israel and its lobby groups. The concept of 'Israel' has been bound together with the image of Jewish victims of the holocaust, and Jewishness in general, in a cynical propaganda exercise which goes back decades. The Zionists have, in effect, hijacked the holocaust, and even terms of the English language, in order to promote their racist project.
There is a common misconception prevalent at the moment that Netanyahu is on the far right in Israel. He isn't. In fact his policies are fairly moderate and in the centre in Israeli terms.
There are, of course, Israelis who speak out against the atrocities committed in their name - but they are a very small minority. The vast majority of Israelis live in a propaganda bubble, believing that they are the real victims and that the rest of the world is profoundly anti-Semitic.
We now have a very sad state of affairs within the British Labour Party where lifelong anti-racists are being suspended and expelled for speaking out against Israel's crimes while, at the same time, the Labour Friends of Israel promote an apartheid regime's 'right to defend itself' and lead a witch hunt against Labour critics of the killing of unarmed civilians.

[Hibrandenburg]

Unfortunately, it isn't just the right-wing - this is a standard tactic of Israel and its lobby groups. The concept of 'Israel' has been bound together with the image of Jewish victims of the holocaust, and Jewishness in general, in a cynical propaganda exercise which goes back decades. The Zionists have, in effect, hijacked the holocaust, and even terms of the English language, in order to promote their racist project.
There is a common misconception prevalent at the moment that Netanyahu is on the far right in Israel. He isn't. In fact his policies are fairly moderate and in the centre in Israeli terms.
There are, of course, Israelis who speak out against the atrocities committed in their name - but they are a very small minority. The vast majority of Israelis live in a propaganda bubble, believing that they are the real victims and that the rest of the world is profoundly anti-Semitic.
We now have a very sad state of affairs within the British Labour Party where lifelong anti-racists are being suspended and expelled for speaking out against Israel's crimes while, at the same time, the Labour Friends of Israel promote an apartheid regime's 'right to defend itself' and lead a witch hunt against Labour critics of the killing of unarmed civilians.

A decent summary:agree:

[Hibernia&Alba]

Unfortunately, it isn't just the right-wing - this is a standard tactic of Israel and its lobby groups. The concept of 'Israel' has been bound together with the image of Jewish victims of the holocaust, and Jewishness in general, in a cynical propaganda exercise which goes back decades. The Zionists have, in effect, hijacked the holocaust, and even terms of the English language, in order to promote their racist project.
There is a common misconception prevalent at the moment that Netanyahu is on the far right in Israel. He isn't. In fact his policies are fairly moderate and in the centre in Israeli terms.
There are, of course, Israelis who speak out against the atrocities committed in their name - but they are a very small minority. The vast majority of Israelis live in a propaganda bubble, believing that they are the real victims and that the rest of the world is profoundly anti-Semitic.
We now have a very sad state of affairs within the British Labour Party where lifelong anti-racists are being suspended and expelled for speaking out against Israel's crimes while, at the same time, the Labour Friends of Israel promote an apartheid regime's 'right to defend itself' and lead a witch hunt against Labour critics of the killing of unarmed civilians.

I think there's much to be said for this. Norman Finkelstein's excellent book The Holocaust Industry discusses how Israeli politicians and supporters have misused the horrors of the Holocaust to silence critics of Israeli policy. His parents were themselves survivors of Auschwitz. The propaganda bubble of the Israeli public has been explained by several historians and political commentators; I would say Ilan Pappe, the Israeli historian and advocate for the Palestinian cause, has done an excellent job there, for example. It would appear that most of the Israeli public are blasé about the occupation and rarely think of it, as it doesn't affect them; largely because they don't pay for it, American money does.

[Stranraer]

I think there's much to be said for this. Norman Finkelstein's excellent book The Holocaust Industry discusses how Israeli politicians and supporters have misused the horrors of the Holocaust to silence critics of Israeli policy. His parents were themselves survivors of Auschwitz. The propaganda bubble of the Israeli public has been explained by several historians and political commentators; I would say Ilan Pappe, the Israeli historian and advocate for the Palestinian cause, has done an excellent job there, for example. It would appear that most of the Israeli public are blasé about the occupation and rarely think of it, as it doesn't affect them; largely because they don't pay for it, American money does.

Pappe... is that the author that wrote about the "ethnic cleansing of Palestine?"

[Betty Boop]

Pappe... is that the author that wrote about the "ethnic cleansing of Palestine?"

Yes

[Hibernia&Alba]

Pappe... is that the author that wrote about the "ethnic cleansing of Palestine?"

Yes, he's written a number of good books, including that one, which examines the creation of the refugees during the creation of Israel.

[IngolstadtHarry]

The theme of anti-Semitism is a hot topic in the UK at the moment, with the most serious and damaging accusations being levelled, ironically, against the people who are the least anti-Semitic and the most active in campaigning against all forms of racism. It isn't difficult to work out that a massive fraud is being perpetrated by the right-wing press and the Tory Party, aided and steered by the propaganda unit of the Israeli Embassy, which is now more or less under the control of Mark Regev - the new Israeli Ambassador to the UK and apologist for Israel's crimes against the Palestinians. Jewish Labour Party activists have found themselves branded as 'anti_Semitic' and have been suspended, and in some cases expelled, from the party for the 'crime' of criticising Israel. The mainstream media use of the term has now lost its literal meaning. It is no longer used to describe someone who is prejudiced against the Semitic peoples - or even simply against Jewish people. The charge of anti-Semitism is now being levelled against anyone criticising the state of Israel - irrespective of whether the critic is himself Jewish.
How do the propagandists get away with this massive fraud? By financing and controlling some very powerful lobby groups, the most important of which are AIPAC (American Israeli Public Affairs Committee) and the ADL (Anti-Defamation League) in the US.
The UK has the Board of Deputies of British Jews - a grand-sounding name for a right-wing, conservative organisation which is very much pro-Israel. When Jeremy Corbyn recently celebrated the Jewish festival of Passover with a group of anti-Israel Jews he was condemned by the Deputies for hobnobbing with 'the wrong kind of Jews'.
It's very important to stress that Israel and its lobby groups do not represent the world's Jews. They don't even represent Israel's Jews, in fact many Orthodox Jews in Israel are involved in an ongoing conflict with the state which is trying to force them to serve in the military.
I recently came across a very good film which provides incredible insight into how the propagandists work and how they've managed to get away with their scam for so long.
It was made by an Israeli film director who uses wonderful black Jewish humour to cover a serious topic. He manages to expose the Israeli scam for all the world to see. The problem is that this film was, of course, condemned as 'anti-Semitic, wasn't widely distributed, and is regularly taken down from youtube due to anonymous complaints. I would highly recommend it. Link below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNWF9CeoZdE

[One Day Soon]

The theme of anti-Semitism is a hot topic in the UK at the moment, with the most serious and damaging accusations being levelled, ironically, against the people who are the least anti-Semitic and the most active in campaigning against all forms of racism. It isn't difficult to work out that a massive fraud is being perpetrated by the right-wing press and the Tory Party, aided and steered by the propaganda unit of the Israeli Embassy, which is now more or less under the control of Mark Regev - the new Israeli Ambassador to the UK and apologist for Israel's crimes against the Palestinians. Jewish Labour Party activists have found themselves branded as 'anti_Semitic' and have been suspended, and in some cases expelled, from the party for the 'crime' of criticising Israel. The mainstream media use of the term has now lost its literal meaning. It is no longer used to describe someone who is prejudiced against the Semitic peoples - or even simply against Jewish people. The charge of anti-Semitism is now being levelled against anyone criticising the state of Israel - irrespective of whether the critic is himself Jewish.
How do the propagandists get away with this massive fraud? By financing and controlling some very powerful lobby groups, the most important of which are AIPAC (American Israeli Public Affairs Committee) and the ADL (Anti-Defamation League) in the US.
The UK has the Board of Deputies of British Jews - a grand-sounding name for a right-wing, conservative organisation which is very much pro-Israel. When Jeremy Corbyn recently celebrated the Jewish festival of Passover with a group of anti-Israel Jews he was condemned by the Deputies for hobnobbing with 'the wrong kind of Jews'.
It's very important to stress that Israel and its lobby groups do not represent the world's Jews. They don't even represent Israel's Jews, in fact many Orthodox Jews in Israel are involved in an ongoing conflict with the state which is trying to force them to serve in the military.
I recently came across a very good film which provides incredible insight into how the propagandists work and how they've managed to get away with their scam for so long.
It was made by an Israeli film director who uses wonderful black Jewish humour to cover a serious topic. He manages to expose the Israeli scam for all the world to see. The problem is that this film was, of course, condemned as 'anti-Semitic, wasn't widely distributed, and is regularly taken down from youtube due to anonymous complaints. I would highly recommend it. Link below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNWF9CeoZdE


Which is it then, is he expelling the 'innocents' or standing up to the giant 'conspiracy'? :confused:

The behaviour and sub-text to the agenda of many of these people you appear to be talking about seems to be a reversion to ancient and disgusting anti Jewish tropes. Big difference between that and criticising the actions of the state of Israel.

Your link is to a film that was posted almost exactly three years ago. Doesn't seem to have been taken down during that time. Pretty ***** conspiracy if it leaves a hostile opinion intact for three years?

[IngolstadtHarry]

Which is it then, is he expelling the 'innocents' or standing up to the giant 'conspiracy'? :confused:

The behaviour and sub-text to the agenda of many of these people you appear to be talking about seems to be a reversion to ancient and disgusting anti Jewish tropes. Big difference between that and criticising the actions of the state of Israel.

Your link is to a film that was posted almost exactly three years ago. Doesn't seem to have been taken down during that time. Pretty ***** conspiracy if it leaves a hostile opinion intact for three years?



Neither - you seem rather confused about the situation within the Labour Party. Corbyn was elected overwhelmingly, as party leader, by the membership, which stands at well over half a million. He is being opposed by the Blairite-dominated Parliamentary Labour Party. Those are the people responsible for the fake charges of anti-Semitism. Until local constituency parties de-select the Blairites, Corbyn will suffer continuing set-backs. If you are still confused then let me know and I will explain in a little more depth.

There are no 'Jewish tropes' involved in my analysis. In fact, I have stressed the non-Jewish nature of Israel and its crimes - a side of my argument which seems to have escaped you.
The only thing I find disgusting is the impunity which Israel has managed to obtain in the face of its race crimes and an apartheid system which far exceeds that of South Africa in brutality.

I deliberately linked to a version of the film which appears to have survived longest. Many other links have disappeared during that time. This has nothing to do with a conspiracy but is more likely due to the efforts of the recruits Israel employs to sanitise its online image. These recruits include many thousands of students whose job is to monitor social media, newspaper letters pages and youtube, attempting to remove negative publicity. Israel admits to doing this. If you attempt to deny this then I will be forced to make you look foolish here by posting hard evidence of it.

[One Day Soon]

Neither - you seem rather confused about the situation within the Labour Party. Corbyn was elected overwhelmingly, as party leader, by the membership, which stands at well over half a million. He is being opposed by the Blairite-dominated Parliamentary Labour Party. Those are the people responsible for the fake charges of anti-Semitism. Until local constituency parties de-select the Blairites, Corbyn will suffer continuing set-backs. If you are still confused then let me know and I will explain in a little more depth.

There are no 'Jewish tropes' involved in my analysis. In fact, I have stressed the non-Jewish nature of Israel and its crimes - a side of my argument which seems to have escaped you.
The only thing I find disgusting is the impunity which Israel has managed to obtain in the face of its race crimes and an apartheid system which far exceeds that of South Africa in brutality.

I deliberately linked to a version of the film which appears to have survived longest. Many other links have disappeared during that time. This has nothing to do with a conspiracy but is more likely due to the efforts of the recruits Israel employs to sanitise its online image. These recruits include many thousands of students whose job is to monitor social media, newspaper letters pages and youtube, attempting to remove negative publicity. Israel admits to doing this. If you attempt to deny this then I will be forced to make you look foolish here by posting hard evidence of it.


decided i can't be bothered. sorry.

[Mibbes Aye]

Neither - you seem rather confused about the situation within the Labour Party. Corbyn was elected overwhelmingly, as party leader, by the membership, which stands at well over half a million. He is being opposed by the Blairite-dominated Parliamentary Labour Party. Those are the people responsible for the fake charges of anti-Semitism. Until local constituency parties de-select the Blairites, Corbyn will suffer continuing set-backs. If you are still confused then let me know and I will explain in a little more depth.

There are no 'Jewish tropes' involved in my analysis. In fact, I have stressed the non-Jewish nature of Israel and its crimes - a side of my argument which seems to have escaped you.
The only thing I find disgusting is the impunity which Israel has managed to obtain in the face of its race crimes and an apartheid system which far exceeds that of South Africa in brutality.

I deliberately linked to a version of the film which appears to have survived longest. Many other links have disappeared during that time. This has nothing to do with a conspiracy but is more likely due to the efforts of the recruits Israel employs to sanitise its online image. These recruits include many thousands of students whose job is to monitor social media, newspaper letters pages and youtube, attempting to remove negative publicity. Israel admits to doing this. If you attempt to deny this then I will be forced to make you look foolish here by posting hard evidence of it.

It wasn’t that overwhelming a victory, more Labour members wanted to stay in the EU than voted for Corbyn, and let’s be frank, there aren’t Blairites nowadays, the man left the job more than a decade ago.

There are a bunch of hyped-up loons who resemble children with the keys to a sweetie shop and want to drag Labour into an unelectable morass in order to indulge their fantasies where Blair stands trial for war crimes and then something else, before an inevitable decline into bitter in-fighting about where a comma is placed or why oxygen should be nationalised.

All IMO I hasten to add.

[One Day Soon]

Neither - you seem rather confused about the situation within the Labour Party. Corbyn was elected overwhelmingly, as party leader, by the membership, which stands at well over half a million. He is being opposed by the Blairite-dominated Parliamentary Labour Party. Those are the people responsible for the fake charges of anti-Semitism. Until local constituency parties de-select the Blairites, Corbyn will suffer continuing set-backs. If you are still confused then let me know and I will explain in a little more depth.

He can't be simultaneously in charge and not in charge.

There are no 'Jewish tropes' involved in my analysis. In fact, I have stressed the non-Jewish nature of Israel and its crimes - a side of my argument which seems to have escaped you.
The only thing I find disgusting is the impunity which Israel has managed to obtain in the face of its race crimes and an apartheid system which far exceeds that of South Africa in brutality.

I wasn't talking about your analysis, I was talking about the behaviour of the suspended/expelled Labour people you referred to and what motivates some of them.

I deliberately linked to a version of the film which appears to have survived longest. Many other links have disappeared during that time. This has nothing to do with a conspiracy but is more likely due to the efforts of the recruits Israel employs to sanitise its online image. These recruits include many thousands of students whose job is to monitor social media, newspaper letters pages and youtube, attempting to remove negative publicity. Israel admits to doing this. If you attempt to deny this then I will be forced to make you look foolish here by posting hard evidence of it.

If this survived three years they must be pretty crap at their online whitewashing activities.

Got bored waiting for non-existent transfer news and decided I could be bothered after all.

[IngolstadtHarry]

He can't be simultaneously in charge and not in charge.

If this survived three years they must be pretty crap at their online whitewashing activities.

Got bored waiting for non-existent transfer news and decided I could be bothered after all.


Clearly, you have absolutely no idea about how the Labour Party is structured and run if you have to use terms like 'in charge'. The party is not a dictatorship and don't forget that Corbyn became leader against the will of the parliamentary party.
Organise your own education because I don't wish to take on that role for you.

I suspect that the clip survived 3 years because there is a small amount of resistance among the youtube administrators to spurious charges of anti-Semitism. As I already pointed out, many other versions of the same film were taken down without a reason being given. To sum up, the Israeli PR operatives are not 'pretty crap', in fact they are very efficient and persistent, but they do suffer some failures.

Good luck with your transfer news - and your education.

[IngolstadtHarry]

It wasn’t that overwhelming a victory, more Labour members wanted to stay in the EU than voted for Corbyn, and let’s be frank, there aren’t Blairites nowadays, the man left the job more than a decade ago.

There are a bunch of hyped-up loons who resemble children with the keys to a sweetie shop and want to drag Labour into an unelectable morass in order to indulge their fantasies where Blair stands trial for war crimes and then something else, before an inevitable decline into bitter in-fighting about where a comma is placed or why oxygen should be nationalised.

All IMO I hasten to add.

Clearly, you live in a parallel universe with 'alternative facts'.
In my universe, Corbyn won the leadership election, and I quote Wikipedia, "in a landslide victory on 12 September 2015 with 59.5% of first-preference votes in the first round of voting. Corbyn's 40.5% majority was larger than that attained by Tony Blair (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Blair) in 1994 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Party_(UK)_leadership_election,_1994).[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Party_leadership_of_Jeremy_Corbyn#cite_note-12)[13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Party_leadership_of_Jeremy_Corbyn#cite_note-Mason-13) His margin of victory was said to be "the largest mandate ever won by a party leader".

When he was challenged for the leadership by Owen Smith in 2016, Corbyn increased his majority. I quote: "Corbyn was re-elected as Labour leader on 24 September, with 313,209 votes (61.8%) compared to 193,229 (38.2%) for Owen Smith (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owen_Smith) – a slightly increased share of the vote compared to his election in 2015, when he won 59%. On a turnout of 77.6%, Corbyn won the support of 59% of party members, 70% of registered supporters and 60% of affiliated supporters".

"let’s be frank, there aren’t Blairites nowadays, the man left the job more than a decade ago."
Well, the Labour Party seems to think that it has Blairites, members who hold to Blair's philosophy call themselves Blairites and those who oppose them use the same term - so I don't really understand what you are trying to say there at all. Some members of the Tory Party call themselves 'Thatcherites' even though she left power decades ago, and the planet years ago.

"fantasies where Blair stands trial for war crimes.."
To make light of war crimes is very dangerous territory indeed. Many international campaigners for justice for the victims of Tony Blair and George Bush do not regard such a scenario as a 'fantasy' and maybe if you had a family member who was sent to war and died on the basis of lies told by Blair then you would take this matter a little more seriously, instead of making such a flippant remark.

[One Day Soon]

Clearly, you have absolutely no idea about how the Labour Party is structured and run if you have to use terms like 'in charge'. The party is not a dictatorship and don't forget that Corbyn became leader against the will of the parliamentary party.
Organise your own education because I don't wish to take on that role for you.

If you knew anything at all about the Labour Party you would be aware that a) the Leader and their office effectively dictate most of what the rest of the Party's organisational structures do - and even more so under the present leadership where the NEC, almost all other committees, the full time officers of the Party, all Special Advisors and the vast majority of the membership are under Corbyn's control and b) that the dominance of the Trade Unions by key Corbyn allies means that Corbyn is utterly 'in charge' of everything when it comes to votes on, for example, conference debates and agenda, disciplinary matters etc - with the exception of the PLP and some local council groups. The PLP of course has little power over anything. Quaint though your view is, you show little understanding of how the party really works in your strange references to the PLP - a body which has no formal or informal control over anything other than itself and barely even that.

I suspect that the clip survived 3 years because there is a small amount of resistance among the youtube administrators to spurious charges of anti-Semitism. As I already pointed out, many other versions of the same film were taken down without a reason being given. To sum up, the Israeli PR operatives are not 'pretty crap', in fact they are very efficient and persistent, but they do suffer some failures.

I suspect you are talking cobblers here. There's just enough 'resistance' among youtube administrators to protect this one clip for three years? Somehow though this plucky undercover resistance group couldn't save the other versions?

Good luck with your transfer news - and your education.

'Education' :rolleyes:

[IngolstadtHarry]

If you knew anything at all about the Labour Party you would be aware that a) the Leader and their office effectively dictate most of what the rest of the Party's organisational structures do - and even more so under the present leadership where the NEC, almost all other committees, the full time officers of the Party, all Special Advisors and the vast majority of the membership are under Corbyn's control and b) that the dominance of the Trade Unions by key Corbyn allies means that Corbyn is utterly 'in charge' of everything when it comes to votes on, for example, conference debates and agenda, disciplinary matters etc - with the exception of the PLP and some local council groups. The PLP of course has little power over anything. Quaint though your view is, you show little understanding of how the party really works in your strange references to the PLP - a body which has no formal or informal control over anything other than itself and barely even that.
[QUOTE=One Day Soon;5430893]'Education' :rolleyes:/QUOTE]

"The leader and their (sic) office dictate most of what the rest of the Party's organisational structures do..."
"..and even more so under the present leadership where the NEC, almost all other committees, the full time officers of the Party, all Special Advisors and the vast majority of the membership are under Corbyn's control.."

Where did you dredge up this absolute nonsense? Take your nose out of Murdoch's press and try to get a grip on reality. I honestly don't know whether to laugh or cry when I come across such profound ignorance. It is even more shocking when the very press which you use as your information sources is full of talk of 'rebellion' against Corbyn on a daily basis. Why is it that the witch hunt against supposed anti-Semites is directed exclusively against Corbyn's allies - within the PLP and without.
A goldfish could come up with a more logical argument than the preposterous nonsense which you have written above.
Are you even aware that winning parliamentary seats to form a government is the aim of the entire party structure? It isn't a social club, you know.


"...the dominance of the Trade Unions by key Corbyn allies..."
Are you living in the 1970s? Who put this stuff in your head? Did you ever take a look at the current figures for trade union membership and where those unions stand politically?


I suspect you are talking cobblers here. There's just enough 'resistance' among youtube administrators to protect this one clip for three years? Somehow though this plucky undercover resistance group couldn't save the other versions?

I left the most moronic thing you wrote to the end. Did it ever enter your head that 300 hours of video are uploaded every single hour of every day to youtube or that 5,000,000,000 videos are watched there every day?
Why on earth would it have to be a 'plucky undercover resistance group'? Why couldn't it just result from a general inability or unwillingness to check every single clip branded anti-Semitic by anonymous complainers. Clearly, you have no inkling about statistics and probabilities because, for you, everything has to boil down to some 'conspiracy'.
You really ought to be deeply embarrassed about putting your name to this stuff - all in the name of making a feeble attempt at justifying attacks on the one party leader this country has produced in the last few decades who is willing and able to stand up to a racist abomination which resulted from British colonialism.

[JeMeSouviens]

If you knew anything at all about the Labour Party you would be aware that a) the Leader and their office effectively dictate most of what the rest of the Party's organisational structures do - and even more so under the present leadership where the NEC, almost all other committees, the full time officers of the Party, all Special Advisors and the vast majority of the membership are under Corbyn's control and b) that the dominance of the Trade Unions by key Corbyn allies means that Corbyn is utterly 'in charge' of everything when it comes to votes on, for example, conference debates and agenda, disciplinary matters etc - with the exception of the PLP and some local council groups. The PLP of course has little power over anything. Quaint though your view is, you show little understanding of how the party really works in your strange references to the PLP - a body which has no formal or informal control over anything other than itself and barely even that.
[QUOTE=One Day Soon;5430893]'Education' :rolleyes:/QUOTE]

"The leader and their (sic) office dictate most of what the rest of the Party's organisational structures do..."
"..and even more so under the present leadership where the NEC, almost all other committees, the full time officers of the Party, all Special Advisors and the vast majority of the membership are under Corbyn's control.."

Where did you dredge up this absolute nonsense? Take your nose out of Murdoch's press and try to get a grip on reality. I honestly don't know whether to laugh or cry when I come across such profound ignorance. It is even more shocking when the very press which you use as your information sources is full of talk of 'rebellion' against Corbyn on a daily basis. Why is it that the witch hunt against supposed anti-Semites is directed exclusively against Corbyn's allies - within the PLP and without.
A goldfish could come up with a more logical argument than the preposterous nonsense which you have written above.
Are you even aware that winning parliamentary seats to form a government is the aim of the entire party structure? It isn't a social club, you know.


"...the dominance of the Trade Unions by key Corbyn allies..."
Are you living in the 1970s? Who put this stuff in your head? Did you ever take a look at the current figures for trade union membership and where those unions stand politically?


I suspect you are talking cobblers here. There's just enough 'resistance' among youtube administrators to protect this one clip for three years? Somehow though this plucky undercover resistance group couldn't save the other versions?

I left the most moronic thing you wrote to the end. Did it ever enter your head that 300 hours of video are uploaded every single hour of every day to youtube or that 5,000,000,000 videos are watched there every day?
Why on earth would it have to be a 'plucky undercover resistance group'? Why couldn't it just result from a general inability or unwillingness to check every single clip branded anti-Semitic by anonymous complainers. Clearly, you have no inkling about statistics and probabilities because, for you, everything has to boil down to some 'conspiracy'.
You really ought to be deeply embarrassed about putting your name to this stuff - all in the name of making a feeble attempt at justifying attacks on the one party leader this country has produced in the last few decades who is willing and able to stand up to a racist abomination which resulted from British colonialism.

You 2 should both be embarrassed at not being able to use the quote facility.

[IngolstadtHarry]

'Education' :rolleyes:



And please don't paste your stuff inside my posts and then reply with the entire block as a quote - I really don't want anyone on here to get the impression that the stuff you spew originates with me.

[IngolstadtHarry]

You 2 should both be embarrassed at not being able to use the quote facility.[/QUOTE]


I just wrote a post complaining about this very thing. He insists upon writing answers within my text in bold and then quoting the entire block - which gives the impression that his stuff comes from me.
It forces me to cut out what he wrote and reply to each part separately.

[One Day Soon]

[QUOTE=IngolstadtHarry;5431301]If you knew anything at all about the Labour Party you would be aware that a) the Leader and their office effectively dictate most of what the rest of the Party's organisational structures do - and even more so under the present leadership where the NEC, almost all other committees, the full time officers of the Party, all Special Advisors and the vast majority of the membership are under Corbyn's control and b) that the dominance of the Trade Unions by key Corbyn allies means that Corbyn is utterly 'in charge' of everything when it comes to votes on, for example, conference debates and agenda, disciplinary matters etc - with the exception of the PLP and some local council groups. The PLP of course has little power over anything. Quaint though your view is, you show little understanding of how the party really works in your strange references to the PLP - a body which has no formal or informal control over anything other than itself and barely even that.


You 2 should both be embarrassed at not being able to use the quote facility.


You make a fair point, I am.

[CropleyWasGod]

You 2 should both be embarrassed at not being able to use the quote facility.


I just wrote a post complaining about this very thing. He insists upon writing answers within my text in bold and then quoting the entire block - which gives the impression that his stuff comes from me.
It forces me to cut out what he wrote and reply to each part separately.[/QUOTE]

To be fair, he was talking about you an aw :greengrin

[IngolstadtHarry]

To be fair, he was talking about you an aw :greengrin

I realised that and was attempting to explain the lack of structure.

[One Day Soon]

If you knew anything at all about the Labour Party you would be aware that a) the Leader and their office effectively dictate most of what the rest of the Party's organisational structures do - and even more so under the present leadership where the NEC, almost all other committees, the full time officers of the Party, all Special Advisors and the vast majority of the membership are under Corbyn's control and b) that the dominance of the Trade Unions by key Corbyn allies means that Corbyn is utterly 'in charge' of everything when it comes to votes on, for example, conference debates and agenda, disciplinary matters etc - with the exception of the PLP and some local council groups. The PLP of course has little power over anything. Quaint though your view is, you show little understanding of how the party really works in your strange references to the PLP - a body which has no formal or informal control over anything other than itself and barely even that.
[QUOTE=One Day Soon;5430893]'Education' :rolleyes:/QUOTE]

"The leader and their (sic) office dictate most of what the rest of the Party's organisational structures do..."
"..and even more so under the present leadership where the NEC, almost all other committees, the full time officers of the Party, all Special Advisors and the vast majority of the membership are under Corbyn's control.."

Where did you dredge up this absolute nonsense? Take your nose out of Murdoch's press and try to get a grip on reality. I honestly don't know whether to laugh or cry when I come across such profound ignorance. It is even more shocking when the very press which you use as your information sources is full of talk of 'rebellion' against Corbyn on a daily basis. Why is it that the witch hunt against supposed anti-Semites is directed exclusively against Corbyn's allies - within the PLP and without.
A goldfish could come up with a more logical argument than the preposterous nonsense which you have written above.
Are you even aware that winning parliamentary seats to form a government is the aim of the entire party structure? It isn't a social club, you know.


"...the dominance of the Trade Unions by key Corbyn allies..."
Are you living in the 1970s? Who put this stuff in your head? Did you ever take a look at the current figures for trade union membership and where those unions stand politically?


I suspect you are talking cobblers here. There's just enough 'resistance' among youtube administrators to protect this one clip for three years? Somehow though this plucky undercover resistance group couldn't save the other versions?

I left the most moronic thing you wrote to the end. Did it ever enter your head that 300 hours of video are uploaded every single hour of every day to youtube or that 5,000,000,000 videos are watched there every day?
Why on earth would it have to be a 'plucky undercover resistance group'? Why couldn't it just result from a general inability or unwillingness to check every single clip branded anti-Semitic by anonymous complainers. Clearly, you have no inkling about statistics and probabilities because, for you, everything has to boil down to some 'conspiracy'.
You really ought to be deeply embarrassed about putting your name to this stuff - all in the name of making a feeble attempt at justifying attacks on the one party leader this country has produced in the last few decades who is willing and able to stand up to a racist abomination which resulted from British colonialism.


1. I don't read newspapers - of any kind, let alone 'Murdoch's press'. But it's entirely unsurprising that you decided to make up the notion that I do, it's in keeping with the rest of the ignorant and ill informed pish you've posted.

2. Are you even a party member because the crap you are talking about it is either utterly dishonest or utterly dumb. Either way your infatuation with Magic Grandad is not enough to overcome the reality of how the Labour Party works. What would I know about it though, I've only been a member since age 18.

3. Please point me to where on this thread - pace the sentence above - I have made any attempt to justify attacks on Corbyn. I merely pointed out that he is the person who has been leader while the suspensions and expulsions you regret have taken place.

4. What exactly is it you believe to be a racist abomination?

5. Are you as disgusted by the attacks of Hamas and Hezbollah as you are by the behaviour of the Israeli state?

[IngolstadtHarry]

1. I don't read newspapers - of any kind, let alone 'Murdoch's press'. But it's entirely unsurprising that you decided to make up the notion that I do, it's in keeping with the rest of the ignorant and ill informed pish you've posted.

2. Are you even a party member because the crap you are talking about it is either utterly dishonest or utterly dumb. Either way your infatuation with Magic Grandad is not enough to overcome the reality of how the Labour Party works. What would I know about it though, I've only been a member since age 18.

3. Please point me to where on this thread - pace the sentence above - I have made any attempt to justify attacks on Corbyn. I merely pointed out that he is the person who has been leader while the suspensions and expulsions you regret have taken place.

4. What exactly is it you believe to be a racist abomination?

5. Are you as disgusted by the attacks of Hamas and Hezbollah as you are by the behaviour of the Israeli state?


"Infatuation with Magic Grandad" tells me all I need to know about you already.
And it isn't difficult to determine your infatuation with Genocidal Tony. Of course, when you talk about your 'membership' then you actually mean membership of 'New Labour', which most party members now call 'Non-Labour' or 'Thatcherite Labour'. - but carry on clinging to your past.

Israel is the racist abomination - a creation of British colonialism based upon apartheid, and a throwback to the 19th century.

Hamas and Hezbollah have not attacked Israel and I'm not entirely sure why you are banding these two organisations together.

Hamas is the democratically-elected government of Gaza. Of course, I realise that people like you only recognise democracy when the result is the one you are demanding.
Hamas has every right to resist Israeli attacks on the inhabitants of the concentration camp known as the Gaza Strip - just as the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto once resisted the Nazis.

Hezbollah represents Lebanon's independence - without it, Lebanon would be transformed into another Israeli-occupied concentration camp, similar to the Gaza Strip.
Hezbollah is part of Lebanon's democratically-elected government - again, one which people like you would probably not recognise because the Lebanese have a tendency to resist attempted Western influence on their democratic process.
Hezbollah has never attacked Israel without provokation - but it has succeeded in driving the racist invaders from Lebanon on every occasion on which they have tried to steal and occupy Lebanese territory.

[One Day Soon]

"Infatuation with Magic Grandad" tells me all I need to know about you already.
And it isn't difficult to determine your infatuation with Genocidal Tony. Of course, when you talk about your 'membership' then you actually mean membership of 'New Labour', which most party members now call 'Non-Labour' or 'Thatcherite Labour'. - but carry on clinging to your past.

Israel is the racist abomination - a creation of British colonialism based upon apartheid, and a throwback to the 19th century.

Hamas and Hezbollah have not attacked Israel and I'm not entirely sure why you are banding these two organisations together.

Hamas is the democratically-elected government of Gaza. Of course, I realise that people like you only recognise democracy when the result is the one you are demanding.
Hamas has every right to resist Israeli attacks on the inhabitants of the concentration camp known as the Gaza Strip - just as the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto once resisted the Nazis.

Hezbollah represents Lebanon's independence - without it, Lebanon would be transformed into another Israeli-occupied concentration camp, similar to the Gaza Strip.
Hezbollah is part of Lebanon's democratically-elected government - again, one which people like you would probably not recognise because the Lebanese have a tendency to resist attempted Western influence on their democratic process.
Hezbollah has never attacked Israel without provokation - but it has succeeded in driving the racist invaders from Lebanon on every occasion on which they have tried to steal and occupy Lebanese territory.


I think I'll just leave your post right here.

[makaveli1875]

[QUOTE=IngolstadtHarry;5431447]


Hamas and Hezbollah have not attacked Israel

Hamas is the democratically-elected government of Gaza. Of course, I realise that people like you only recognise democracy when the result is the one you are demanding.
Hamas has every right to resist Israeli attacks on the inhabitants of the concentration camp known as the Gaza Strip - just as the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto once resisted the Nazis.

[QUOTE]

You cant be serious , Hamas are terrorists , Dedicated to the destruction of Israel and killing of Jews .

[IngolstadtHarry]

[QUOTE]

You cant be serious , Hamas are terrorists , Dedicated to the destruction of Israel and killing of Jews .

Lol, what comics have you been reading, lad?
Hamas is the democratically-elected government of Gaza. If you would broaden your education then you would be less prone to quoting from the Israeli Embassy sound-byte catalogue. :-D
Who said it was democratically-elected? President Jimmy Carter and the international election observers of the UN. Any more questions?

[makaveli1875]

[QUOTE=makaveli1875;5431495]


Lol, what comics have you been reading, lad?
Hamas is the democratically-elected government of Gaza. If you would broaden your education then you would be less prone to quoting from the Israeli Embassy sound-byte catalogue. :-D
Who said it was democratically-elected? President Jimmy Carter and the international election observers of the UN. Any more questions?

You dont need toread comics to know hamas is a militant group , designated as terrorists by most of the civilised world . Sham elections dont change that fact .

[IngolstadtHarry]

'One Day Soon' has twisted and turned, spouting about youtube, Corbyn and conspiracies.
What he hasn't done is make any single comment on the film I linked to.
So I am going to post the link again - so that the more open-minded users can judge for themselves whether or not it gives a fair summary of the mechanisms Israel uses to maintain its apartheid system.

Defamation - documentary by Yoav Shamir

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNWF9CeoZdE&t=103s

[IngolstadtHarry]

You dont need toread comics to know hamas is a militant group , designated as terrorists by most of the civilised world . Sham elections dont change that fact .

Are you able to read and understand English?

[IngolstadtHarry]

You dont need toread comics to know hamas is a militant group , designated as terrorists by most of the civilised world . Sham elections dont change that fact .


You seem to claim a greater knowledge of Gaza than that of Jimmy Carter and the UN Election Observers Committee so I am going to post an article for you to read from the Guardian - that notorious hotbed of radical Islam.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/may/26/israelandthepalestinians.usa1

[One Day Soon]

'One Day Soon' has twisted and turned, spouting about youtube, Corbyn and conspiracies.
What he hasn't done is make any single comment on the film I linked to.
So I am going to post the link again - so that the more open-minded users can judge for themselves whether or not it gives a fair summary of the mechanisms Israel uses to maintain its apartheid system.

Defamation - documentary by Yoav Shamir

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNWF9CeoZdE&t=103s


I absolutely do not want to be in any way associated with your posts and their content on this subject so please leave me out of them in future thanks.

[Hibernia&Alba]

You dont need toread comics to know hamas is a militant group , designated as terrorists by most of the civilised world . Sham elections dont change that fact .

It wasn't a sham election, makaveli. The U.N. monitored the elections and said they took place in an entirely fair way. There was no evidence of the election being corrupt. Trouble was the people elected the 'wrong' administration, according to Israel and the USA and were immediately hit with sanctions. I'm no fan of the political/religious views of Hamas, by the way, but, if we want democracy, we have to accept the outcome, even if we don't like it.

[IngolstadtHarry]

I absolutely do not want to be in any way associated with your posts and their content on this subject so please leave me out of them in future thanks.

Then stop commenting on them, ffs. :-D

[One Day Soon]

It wasn't a sham election, makaveli. The U.N. monitored the elections and said they took place in an entirely fair way. There was no evidence of the election being corrupt. Trouble was the people elected the 'wrong' administration, according to Israel and the USA and were immediately hit with sanctions. I'm no fan of the political/religious views of Hamas, by the way, but, if we want democracy, we have to accept the outcome, even if we don't like it.


Totally right. And the same is true of the outcome of Israeli elections. But what do you do when the people you need to bring together on all sides are barely interested in accommodating one another at all?

As I have argued elsewhere the electoral system in Israel is a significant part of the problem here.

[One Day Soon]

Then stop commenting on them, ffs. :-D

You randomly introduced me into your last post but one. I don't want to be associated with your 'views' on this subject in any regard so kindly stop.

[IngolstadtHarry]

It wasn't a sham election, makaveli. The U.N. monitored the elections and said they took place in an entirely fair way. There was no evidence of the election being corrupt. Trouble was the people elected the 'wrong' administration, according to Israel and the USA and were immediately hit with sanctions. I'm no fan of the political/religious views of Hamas, by the way, but, if we want democracy, we have to accept the outcome, even if we don't like it.

Exactly my view. The West has been procrastinating over the fate of the Palestinians for 70 years - going through the motions of peace talks, and talks about talks, while Israel holds onto the ball.
It came as no great surprise that the desperate people of Gaza chose a radical government in 2006. Now we should be trying to negotiate with the elected government instead of trying to bring it down.

The attitude of the US to democracy can be summed up by a quote from Henry Kissinger about Chile.

“I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its people. The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves.”

[Mibbes Aye]

Clearly, you live in a parallel universe with 'alternative facts'.
In my universe, Corbyn won the leadership election, and I quote Wikipedia, "in a landslide victory on 12 September 2015 with 59.5% of first-preference votes in the first round of voting. Corbyn's 40.5% majority was larger than that attained by Tony Blair (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Blair) in 1994 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Party_(UK)_leadership_election,_1994).[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Party_leadership_of_Jeremy_Corbyn#cite_note-12)[13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Party_leadership_of_Jeremy_Corbyn#cite_note-Mason-13) His margin of victory was said to be "the largest mandate ever won by a party leader".

When he was challenged for the leadership by Owen Smith in 2016, Corbyn increased his majority. I quote: "Corbyn was re-elected as Labour leader on 24 September, with 313,209 votes (61.8%) compared to 193,229 (38.2%) for Owen Smith (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owen_Smith) – a slightly increased share of the vote compared to his election in 2015, when he won 59%. On a turnout of 77.6%, Corbyn won the support of 59% of party members, 70% of registered supporters and 60% of affiliated supporters".

"let’s be frank, there aren’t Blairites nowadays, the man left the job more than a decade ago."
Well, the Labour Party seems to think that it has Blairites, members who hold to Blair's philosophy call themselves Blairites and those who oppose them use the same term - so I don't really understand what you are trying to say there at all. Some members of the Tory Party call themselves 'Thatcherites' even though she left power decades ago, and the planet years ago.

"fantasies where Blair stands trial for war crimes.."
To make light of war crimes is very dangerous territory indeed. Many international campaigners for justice for the victims of Tony Blair and George Bush do not regard such a scenario as a 'fantasy' and maybe if you had a family member who was sent to war and died on the basis of lies told by Blair then you would take this matter a little more seriously, instead of making such a flippant remark.




Who is making light of war crimes? I am saying, and it's true, that there's a sizeable number of people in the party, especially among the entryists, who dream of Blair being tried for war crimes.

I don't know anyone in the Party who describes themselves as 'Blairite' nowadays. The term was always a distinction, to reflect differentiation from the 'Brownites' and that wasn't really all that much about philosophy and more about supporting the individual and their camp. Brown arguably had a stronger philosophical bent, Blair cleaved more to pragmatism than principle than Brown did.

Perhaps Blair's main philosophical thrust was his view that liberal democracies should actively intervene, militarily, in nations where there were dictatorships, civil war or genocide. It's an uncomfortable truth for his detractors that he was talking about this long before Iraq and in fact Clinton was still in office, hence military intervention in Kosovo and Sierra Leone.

[Mibbes Aye]

Exactly my view. The West has been procrastinating over the fate of the Palestinians for 70 years - going through the motions of peace talks, and talks about talks, while Israel holds onto the ball.
It came as no great surprise that the desperate people of Gaza chose a radical government in 2006. Now we should be trying to negotiate with the elected government instead of trying to bring it down.

The attitude of the US to democracy can be summed up by a quote from Henry Kissinger about Chile.

“I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its people. The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves.”


No - the attitude of the US to democracy cannot be summed up by a quote by a contrary figure nearly fifty years ago.

[IngolstadtHarry]

Who is making light of war crimes? I am saying, and it's true, that there's a sizeable number of people in the party, especially among the entryists, who dream of Blair being tried for war crimes.

I don't know anyone in the Party who describes themselves as 'Blairite' nowadays. The term was always a distinction, to reflect differentiation from the 'Brownites' and that wasn't really all that much about philosophy and more about supporting the individual and their camp. Brown arguably had a stronger philosophical bent, Blair cleaved more to pragmatism than principle than Brown did.

Perhaps Blair's main philosophical thrust was his view that liberal democracies should actively intervene, militarily, in nations where there were dictatorships, civil war or genocide. It's an uncomfortable truth for his detractors that he was talking about this long before Iraq and in fact Clinton was still in office, hence military intervention in Kosovo and Sierra Leone.

I am among those people.
Blair is, by the definition laid down at the Nuremberg Tribunal, guilty of the most serious crime of all - the waging of an aggressive war.
The judgment laid down at Nuremberg set precedents for international law which still govern conflict between nations in the modern world.
Here is the most important statement made there:

"To initiate a war of aggression is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime, differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."

Blair lied to the British people, he lied to Parliament and he caused others to lie on his behalf. He caused the UK's armed forces to perpetrate crimes against humanity and caused its intelligence services to render suspects for torture in foreign lands.
If we wish to present ourselves as upholders of international law and human rights then we must put him on trial in open court - not in a private session where his crimes can be hidden or covered up.

Perhaps Blair did believe, as you say, that 'liberal democracies' should intervene and 'bring democracy' to dictatorships. If that really were the case, however, then his philosophy was very selectively applied. He apparently didn't feel any urge to intervene against the headchopping Saudis or, indeed, against Gaddafi while the Colonel was once again the 'good dictator' before he fell out with Cameron.

It is true that the term Blairite is used more often by the Left than it is by those who cling to New Labour philosophy but there are still many who are proud to use the label for themselves.
A recent article in the Independent proclaimed, "20 years after Blair's historic landslide victory, here's why so many of my generation still call themselves Blairites".

[IngolstadtHarry]

You randomly introduced me into your last post but one. I don't want to be associated with your 'views' on this subject in any regard so kindly stop.

There you go again. Every time you comment, you associate yourself.

[IngolstadtHarry]

No - the attitude of the US to democracy cannot be summed up by a quote by a contrary figure nearly fifty years ago.

I'm afraid that it can, and Kissinger is hardly a 'contrary figure'. He still has his bloody hands on the levers of power. Bush appointed him to the 9/11 inquiry and Trump has him as an advisor.
The US has been bombing one country or another every day since 1945 - mostly on the pretext of 'bringing democracy' to those countries.
Here's a list:

The bombing list



Korea and China 1950-53 (Korean War)
Guatemala 1954
Indonesia 1958
Cuba 1959-1961
Guatemala 1960
Congo 1964
Laos 1964-73
Vietnam 1961-73
Cambodia 1969-70
Guatemala 1967-69
Grenada 1983
Lebanon 1983, 1984 (both Lebanese and Syrian targets)
Libya 1986
El Salvador 1980s
Nicaragua 1980s
Iran 1987
Panama 1989
Iraq 1991 (Persian Gulf War)
Kuwait 1991
Somalia 1993
Bosnia 1994, 1995
Sudan 1998
Afghanistan 1998
Yugoslavia 1999
Yemen 2002
Iraq 1991-2003 (US/UK on regular basis)
Iraq 2003-2015
Afghanistan 2001-2015
Pakistan 2007-2015
Somalia 2007-8, 2011
Yemen 2009, 2011
Libya 2011, 2015
Syria 2014-2016

[One Day Soon]

There you go again. Every time you comment, you associate yourself.


You're just making an even bigger cock of yourself now. Your lack of self awareness is entirely typical of your type.

[IngolstadtHarry]

You're just making an even bigger cock of yourself now. Your lack of self awareness is entirely typical of your type.

I think that you are just hoping that a little of the truth about Israel will rub off on you. It can't be easy for you, supporting an increasingly unpopular cause.

[One Day Soon]

I think that you are just hoping that a little of the truth about Israel will rub off on you. It can't be easy for you, supporting an increasingly unpopular cause.


Literally no idea what you're talking about, but then neither do you.

You're done Wolfie. :bye: