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Keith_M
29-04-2018, 06:19 PM
Today's Herald contains yet another lazy journalism article in which they have grouped Hibs alongside Rankers, Celtc and Hearts in an article about Nil-By-Mouth's complaint on the failure to tackle sectarianism in Scottish Football.

They also said that it's about time government funding, such as the money we receive for the Oriam Centre (????) should be taken away until each club does something about the problem.

It's unclear from the article whether Nil-By-Mouth have also accused Hibs by name but the reporter has definitely named us as one of the four clubs in question

These people are total idiots and should be taken to task for slurring the good name of our Club and Support.

ARTICLE (http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/16191826.Exclusive__Call_for_ban_on_taxpayer_fundi ng_in_Scottish_football_in_bid_to_end__quot_cultur e_of_cowardice_quot__on_sectarianism/?action=success#comments-feedback-anchor)

Perhaps one of our Fans Representatives could this matter up with the Club as a matter of urgency.

Joe6-2
29-04-2018, 06:23 PM
I agree and really hope the club do something, anything about this bloody disgrace! Lumping us in with the poison spouted constantly at Darkhead and Ipox

SouthMoroccoStu
29-04-2018, 06:25 PM
I’m sick fed up of these lazy west coast poor excuse for journalists lumping us in with the other 3

Hope the club comes down hard on them

Argylehibby
29-04-2018, 06:27 PM
Nil by Mouth have named us previously and it's time they were challenged by the club.

truehibernian
29-04-2018, 06:28 PM
I'm astonished that not one media outlet has ever brought Rangers Media to task - the content on that forum is not only disgraceful but littered with posts that are criminal, sordid, bigoted and sectarian.

How about them doing that :aok:

AltheHibby
29-04-2018, 06:29 PM
If James Fish posts here I just want to say well done for your comprehensive reply on the article. Good work sir.

Keith_M
29-04-2018, 06:29 PM
Nil by Mouth have named us previously and it's time they were challenged by the club.


:agree:


These people might have founded their organisation for a noble reason but have proven to be complete idiots in practice, e.g. the constant slander of Hibs' good name and pandering to fans of The Rangers and the 'Hun' word.

WoreTheGreen
29-04-2018, 06:29 PM
I’m sick fed up of these lazy west coast poor excuse for journalists lumping us in with the other 3

Hope the club comes down hard on them

Journalists really got a university degree but not in the real world.

BegbieHSC
29-04-2018, 06:31 PM
Herald used to be a really respectable publication. I think there has been a change in editorial lately, as it’s been looking like a right-wing tabloid for a wee while now.

Absolutely despicable attempt at defamation here ! They can absolutely do one!

Jack Hackett
29-04-2018, 06:33 PM
We are a club with roots in Ireland. Our name is associated with Ireland... ergo, we are sectarian...









... It's true. Ask any hun :rolleyes:

oneone73
29-04-2018, 06:33 PM
Herald used to be a really respectable publication. I think there has been a change in editorial lately, as it’s been looking like a right-wing tabloid for a wee while now.

Absolutely despicable attempt at defamation here ! They can absolutely do one!

This was the Sunday Herald, mind.

blaikie
29-04-2018, 06:42 PM
Nil by mouth should be taken to task on this, they have previously mentioned Hibs when referring to lack of action against sectarianism.

I’m sure it’s Nil by mouth who tried to have the term Hun deemed as sectarian!

Onion
29-04-2018, 06:44 PM
Nil by Mouth have named us previously and it's time they were challenged by the club.

Nothing lazy about it. Deliberate attempt to sully the reputation of fair and decent fans. These so called journalists know the shame their Celtic and Sevco bring to the game and country but detest other clubs pointing fingers.

barcahibs
29-04-2018, 06:46 PM
This (alongside the fact that its a daft idea to begin with) is why I'm against strict liability and the crazy anti sectarian singing laws.
The establishment isn't interested in a narrative where sectarianism in football is a primarily old firm issue. When they are forced to come for somebody they'll try to come for us first, the truth doesn't come into it.

WoreTheGreen
29-04-2018, 06:47 PM
Nil by mouth should keep it that way west coast nobody’s

Bostonhibby
29-04-2018, 07:14 PM
Hibs fan accuses Herald of being an irrelevance as a source of news and information .

Sent from my SM-J320FN using Tapatalk

Diclonius
29-04-2018, 07:20 PM
Claiming Hearts and Hibs are the wee cousins of Celtic and Rangers is in itself sectarian.

You have similar roots so you're the same. **** off.

Pete
29-04-2018, 07:23 PM
Is it because of our use of the word “Hun”?

I don’t know the rights and wrongs of using that word but if it is for that reason they had better tar every club in Scotland with the same brush. Why just us?

green day
29-04-2018, 07:46 PM
Its pretty obvious from the incorrect stuff about Oriam that its been written by a journalist without a clue about football.

Its also pretty shabby from Nil By Mouth - My reading of that is that they come out with some baseless crap about the Edinburgh clubs, and when Hibs and Hearts dont bother to respond to said crap, use the non response as validation of crap !

I am all for rooting out sectarianism in our society, but this type of nonsense simply lets the real culprits off the hook.

superfurryhibby
29-04-2018, 07:59 PM
Nil by Mouth are a disgrace. I wrote to them, highlighting their erroneous website which named Hibs as having a sectarian element to their support. It was a reasonable point and I also highlighted that they
actually collude with the bigots by perpetuating this myth.

No reply, funnily enough.

The club should be firm with this crap, refuting the Herald’s nonsense. Every team’s fans throughout Scottish football calls the Hun the Hun.

Nakedmanoncrack
29-04-2018, 08:02 PM
:agree:


These people might have founded their organisation for a noble reason but have proven to be complete idiots in practice, e.g. the constant slander of Hibs' good name and pandering to fans of The Rangers and the 'Hun' word.

:agree:

WoreTheGreen
29-04-2018, 08:05 PM
Is nil by mouth paid by tax payers money if so wasted cash

jacomo
29-04-2018, 08:12 PM
Nil by Mouth are a disgrace. I wrote to them, highlighting their erroneous website which named Hibs as having a sectarian element to their support. It was a reasonable point and I also highlighted that they
actually collude with the bigots by perpetuating this myth.

No reply, funnily enough.

The club should be firm with this crap, refuting the Herald’s nonsense. Everyone team’s fans throughout Scottish football calls the Hun the Hun.


I think Nil by Mouth pandered to ludicrous accusations of sectarianism by us and others in order to try and gain some credibility with Der Hun... and it backfired spectacularly.

If 'Hun' is a sectarian word, how come its only used to describe one set of supporters? Diet Hun etc is clearly used to describe Hunnish behaviour by our neighbours... and we all know what it means.

The majority of Scottish clubs have Protestant roots... but the majority of Scottish clubs have no truck with this sectarian BS.

Deansy
29-04-2018, 08:26 PM
'Scottish football has an utterly dismal record on sectarianism"

Yeah, much easier (and safer) than saying Celtic & Rangers ! So because we 'didn't respond to a request by the Herald for a comment' we suddenly have a sectarian problem ?? Over to you, LD !

Frazerbob
29-04-2018, 08:32 PM
Nil By Mouth have previously stated that the word ‘Hun’ is sectarian.

Smartie
29-04-2018, 08:47 PM
Other than the fact that it is scandalous that Hibs have been named in the article, I agree with much of what Nil by Mouth are saying.

Scottish football's inaction on sectarianism is a disgrace.

But if we're going to ever do anything about it, we need to start with the guiltiest institutions - Rangers, Celtic and the Scottish football authorities.

Hibs and Hearts shouldn't be anything to do with this.

green leaves
29-04-2018, 08:52 PM
due to work and family commitments it's rare I get to games theses days.Is Forever and ever still sung?still chant dirty orange *******s at the Huns ?

pales into insignificance compared to what rangers sing but still unacceptable.

One Day Soon
29-04-2018, 08:52 PM
This is an utterly disgusting allegation and it should be refuted very, very aggressively.

Aside from the club needing to confront this false claim it seems to me that a complaint to the Independent Press Standards Organisation could well be merited.

Deansy
29-04-2018, 08:59 PM
Nil By Mouth have previously stated that the word ‘Hun’ is sectarian.

That was just 'Nil By Mouth' jumping on the band-wagon when the Hun had a laughable petition out to have it declared sectarian - incredible stuff, an organistion dedicated to combatting sectarianism joining forces with the worst practitioners of it !

davhibby
29-04-2018, 09:05 PM
Other than the fact that it is scandalous that Hibs have been named in the article, I agree with much of what Nil by Mouth are saying.

Scottish football's inaction on sectarianism is a disgrace.

But if we're going to ever do anything about it, we need to start with the guiltiest institutions - Rangers, Celtic and the Scottish football authorities.

Hibs and Hearts shouldn't be anything to do with this.

Hearts should be, they've let that element of their support creep back into their support which has been quite clear this season. Just as bad as the other two.

NAE NOOKIE
29-04-2018, 09:26 PM
due to work and family commitments it's rare I get to games theses days.Is Forever and ever still sung?still chant dirty orange *******s at the Huns ?

pales into insignificance compared to what rangers sing but still unacceptable.

No it isn't .... I cant remember the last time I heard that sung at ER, probably the 80s

BH Hibs
29-04-2018, 09:27 PM
due to work and family commitments it's rare I get to games theses days.Is Forever and ever still sung?still chant dirty orange *******s at the Huns ?

pales into insignificance compared to what rangers sing but still unacceptable.

No it isn’t ever sang any more. And I don’t think it’s up to the fans reps to call this out. It should be Petrie and Dempster to defend us with the threat of legal action on this one

JimBHibees
29-04-2018, 09:28 PM
Personally thought it embarrassing we were calling Killie fans Huns yesterday. Seemed odd.

Onceinawhile
29-04-2018, 09:29 PM
due to work and family commitments it's rare I get to games theses days.Is Forever and ever still sung?still chant dirty orange *******s at the Huns ?

pales into insignificance compared to what rangers sing but still unacceptable.

I've heard forever and ever sung once by about three people in the last twenty five years.

Diclonius
29-04-2018, 09:30 PM
'Scottish football has an utterly dismal record on sectarianism"

Yeah, much easier (and safer) than saying Celtic & Rangers ! So because we 'didn't respond to a request by the Herald for a comment' we suddenly have a sectarian problem ?? Over to you, LD !

"Scottish football's" sectarian problem would be nonexistent if two specific football clubs were also nonexistent.

It isn't a Scotland problem; it's a Celtic and Rangers problem. It will continue to be a problem until people get over that and stop generalising.

AgentDaleCooper
29-04-2018, 09:52 PM
Claiming Hearts and Hibs are the wee cousins of Celtic and Rangers is in itself sectarian.

You have similar roots so you're the same. **** off.

Exactly.

AgentDaleCooper
29-04-2018, 09:53 PM
Personally thought it embarrassing we were calling Killie fans Huns yesterday. Seemed odd.

I think it's playing on the notion that they are 'huns without a busfare'...though perhaps a bit ironic since they made it through to edinburgh...

NAE NOOKIE
29-04-2018, 09:59 PM
Nil by mouth are absolutely determined to drag Hibs into the sectarian debate, despite the only ammunition they have being the 'Hun' word which only they and Sevco seem to see as sectarian ... its not !!!

As other posters have said its time for Hibs to respond to this latest slur on the club. Nobody is pretending that we haven't had the odd isolated incident away from Easter Road by fans travelling to games, but that does not equate to a sectarian problem and absolutely pales into insignificance when measured against the real culprits in Scottish football and society in general.

Its not good enough that Nil by mouth are feeding this nonsense to the press and the press are reporting stuff as fact with no apparent attempt to actually check how things are at Easter Road. Its not good enough that individual Hibs fans are being left to defend the club and us as a support by commenting at the bottom of these newspaper articles or contacting Nil by Mouth themselves.

Many years ago Hibs made it clear that sectarianism wasn't welcome at Easter Road and the fans have responded magnificently, so much so that even when we play the poster boys for sectarianism we refuse to resort to a response in kind to their bile ..... far from being part of the problem we have set an example of what can be achieved, are we absolutely perfect? .. no, but we are damned close to it and as fans we deserve better than silence from Hibs when yet again Nil by Mouth point to us as part of the sectarian problem.

Time for us to make a statement for once.

ancient hibee
29-04-2018, 09:59 PM
Sunday Herald supports the SNP(nothing wrong with that)so this might well be a political attempt to tar football generally with a problem which really only shows to a large extent in the support of two clubs .

CB_NO3
29-04-2018, 10:00 PM
Can someone copy and paste the article?

green day
29-04-2018, 10:06 PM
Personally thought it embarrassing we were calling Killie fans Huns yesterday. Seemed odd.

Maybe it was because almost all of their songs are variants of Huns songs?

heretoday
29-04-2018, 10:10 PM
I'm surprised they didn't drag the Dundee teams into it too.

NAE NOOKIE
29-04-2018, 10:10 PM
Sunday Herald supports the SNP(nothing wrong with that)so this might well be a political attempt to tar football generally with a problem which really only shows to a large extent in the support of two clubs .

Sorry mate, I don't get your point here ..... your suggestion seems to be that the SNP hiding behind the Herald are attempting to show sectarianism as a football wide problem rather than just a west coast one ... what would they have to gain politically by that? If they said it publicly themselves then OK it could be seen as a sop to the unionist Sevco legions, but if its the Herald saying it and there is no actual support of the article by the SNP I cant see what they have gained.

w pilton hibby
29-04-2018, 10:17 PM
Today's Herald contains yet another lazy journalism article in which they have grouped Hibs alongside Rankers, Celtc and Hearts in an article about Nil-By-Mouth's complaint on the failure to tackle sectarianism in Scottish Football.

They also said that it's about time government funding, such as the money we receive for the Oriam Centre (????) should be taken away until each club does something about the problem.

It's unclear from the article whether Nil-By-Mouth have also accused Hibs by name but the reporter has definitely named us as one of the four clubs in question

These people are total idiots and should be taken to task for slurring the good name of our Club and Support.

ARTICLE (http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/16191826.Exclusive__Call_for_ban_on_taxpayer_fundi ng_in_Scottish_football_in_bid_to_end__quot_cultur e_of_cowardice_quot__on_sectarianism/?action=success#comments-feedback-anchor)

Perhaps one of our Fans Representatives could this matter up with the Club as a matter of urgency.

Where does it say in the article anything about Hibs fans being sectarian?

As I read it, Nil by Mouth are proposing the Scottish Government subvert monies currently paid to the SFA and SPFL as a way to force compliance.

It seems that they (the newspaper) asked four of the bigger Scottish clubs about Nil by Mouth's proposal and:

'Both Old Firm clubs, as well as Heart of Midlothian and Hibernian, failed to respond to Sunday Herald requests for comment about Nil By Mouth's demand.'

basehibby
29-04-2018, 10:21 PM
due to work and family commitments it's rare I get to games theses days.Is Forever and ever still sung?still chant dirty orange *******s at the Huns ?

pales into insignificance compared to what rangers sing but still unacceptable.

The answer is NO - this song was ditched long ago by a self policing Hibs support that wants no part in sectarianism. And this is why NilByMouth are bang out of order to paint Hibs support as somehow equivalent to the OF and (to a lesser extent) Hearts who have consistenly refused and/or bottled out of confronting the sectarian morons in their support and achieving a change (literally) of tune.

The misrepresentation is probably based on the use of the word "huns" to describe The Rangers and or any support witnessed trying to emulate the huns' poisonous sectarian antics. I would like to know at what time and under who's auspices the word "hun" was alleged to have become a term used to describe someone's religion. IN Scotland it has always been used to describe the fans of The Rangers and their forebears (no pun intended) Glasgow Rangers in reference to their uncivilised and generally barbaric nature along with their tendency to swarm horde like across the landscape like some noxious human fungus (witness Manchester 2008). The fact they don't particularly like being called huns is neither here nor there. A great many Hibs fans (no idea of the exact proportion but it's certainly a large one) were brought up Church of Scotland and NO-ONE cares and NO-ONE calls them Huns.

Hibs supporters don't generally like being referred to as peg selling hoboes or spoon burners but we don't go crying wolf about sectarianism as a result. Time for NilByMouth to own up and admit they are wrong - or that they have moved the goalposts and are not simply against bigotry but also against any poor wee didums getting their feelings hurt about ANYTHING.

jgl07
29-04-2018, 11:01 PM
This was the Sunday Herald, mind.

The Sunday Herald has become a one issue rag obsessed with the independence referendum in the last couple of years.

A shame because it used to be a very good read.

barcahibs
30-04-2018, 12:28 AM
Nil By Mouth have previously stated that the word ‘Hun’ is sectarian.

That's the problem with the idea of making it illegal to say bad words or offend someone. If sevco fans find that term offensive, then as the group being 'abused' by people using it they have the same right to have it banned as any other easily offended group.

Anyway, as others have said we should be vigourously defending ourselves against these accusations - while at the same time being careful what we wish for.

ErinGoBraghHFC
30-04-2018, 12:54 AM
Nil by Mouth yet again proving themselves to be complete fuds.
The word “Hun” is not sectarian.
Tricolours are in and of themselves not sectarian (whether they belong at easter road or football in general is another debate).

However, condemning us as being religious bigots because of our Irish Catholic roots is very much sectarian and orange order-esque! **** off, hopefully be some legal action against these incompetent morons

WeeRussell
30-04-2018, 02:36 AM
Agree there’s absolutely no need for us to be mentioned in the article, but other than saying we refused to comment.. do they actually say anything about us? Genuine question as I only skimmed through (took me long enough to find the article scrolling above all the old firm fans arguing about catholic schools).

Viva_Palmeiras
30-04-2018, 02:43 AM
Agree there’s absolutely no need for us to be mentioned in the article, but other than saying we refused to comment.. do they actually say anything about us? Genuine question as I only skimmed through (took me long enough to find the article scrolling above all the old firm fans arguing about catholic schools).

My take is it’s all a bit renouous they’ve left it for others to “join the dots” on our involvement with sectarianism on one hand whilst only asking us for comment as we use the government subsidies facilit along with Hearts.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
30-04-2018, 05:35 AM
I think it's playing on the notion that they are 'huns without a busfare'...though perhaps a bit ironic since they made it through to edinburgh...

Personally didnt join in, but i assumed it was because they were singing hello, hello?

Stonewall
30-04-2018, 05:46 AM
i think that it is better to ignore the provocation and attempts to tar us with the same brush as Rantic.

if we want to respond it would be better to ask for specific examples and incidents and address those in detail rather than just issuing blanket denials to vague slurs and agenda driven accusations.

I'm not clear what good it would do other than keep the accusations in the public eye and waste the time of staff at the club.

itslegaltender
30-04-2018, 05:46 AM
Sunday Herald supports the SNP(nothing wrong with that)so this might well be a political attempt to tar football generally with a problem which really only shows to a large extent in the support of two clubs .

Absolute pish to try and bring SNP into being anti football
.

Pretty Boy
30-04-2018, 05:59 AM
Nil By Mouth are part of the problem when it comes to tackling sectarianism.

Rather than be honest about where the problem really lies they play along with the lie that this is a widespread problem throughout Scottish football. It's not. A majority of Hibs fans, Hearts fans, Aberdeen fans, Dundee fans, St Mirren fans and so on and so forth are not likely to indulge in behaviour that you will see elsewhere.

Finally, and this will go down like a lead balloon, if we are talking about sectarianism exclusively then it's Rangers who are the worst of the lot. Celtic fans might sing a lot of stuff that belongs nowhere near a Scottish football stadium but I struggle to think of a song they sing that really qualifies as sectarian in the way 'No Pope of Rome', the revised lyrics to Follow Follow that most of them sing or the Famine Song do.

The biggest issue is this is a societal problem and not a football one, football is just the vehicle for many to express their prejudices. As long as the right to religious freedom is intepreted in Scotland not as the right to attend the place of worship of your choice but rather to march about the streets as part of a fraternal organisation singing about murder and war then the problem continues.

Brizo
30-04-2018, 06:08 AM
The weedgie centric media of all varieties have an active agenda of trying to paint sectarianism as a Scotland wide problem to deflect attention from their own OF backyard. Its partly due to commercial self interest and partly due to cowardice as they can tell the OF knuckle draggers that they are not targeting their clubs but "society".

Nil by mouth are part of that agenda, a weedgie based organisation, who are professional fence sitters and who have played straight into the huns narrative.

As much as I would like the club to complain, when the aforementioned agendas pursued continually by everyone from the "quality" press to BBC Scotland we'd be issuing statements with Sevco like regularity. I think a dignified silence is best.

Frazerbob
30-04-2018, 07:17 AM
Personally didnt join in, but i assumed it was because they were singing hello, hello?

Dozens of teams, particularly down south, sing a version of Hello Hello. Even we sang it up to the mid 80’s. Only Sevco (and some Hearts/Airdire) fans sing a bigoted version. It’s a football song. Only up here is it (and Hail Hail) considered in some way associated to a particular religion.

KWJ
30-04-2018, 07:23 AM
Strange timing. Took an English mate to the game and was sitting up the back of the east. Cringed at hearing 2 people shout up the ra and one guy sing a different version of a song that ended in IRA.

Hadn't heard anything like that at ER since I first went. Just 3 individuals.

neil7908
30-04-2018, 08:16 AM
"Scottish football's" sectarian problem would be nonexistent if two specific football clubs were also nonexistent.

It isn't a Scotland problem; it's a Celtic and Rangers problem. It will continue to be a problem until people get over that and stop generalising.

This. Growing up and going to school in Edinburgh, in the process attending hundreds of Hibs games, I never experienced sectarianism until the OF came to town.

Completely embarrassing that us (and even Hearts) are lumped in with those two teams.

How will we combat the issue if we can't be honest about the perpetrators?

SirDavidsNapper
30-04-2018, 08:23 AM
Personally thought it embarrassing we were calling Killie fans Huns yesterday. Seemed odd.

Think it was because all of their songs are the same as sung by The Rangers albeit different words. I agree though found it a bit cringe

Pretty Boy
30-04-2018, 08:28 AM
Think it was because all of their songs are the same as sung by The Rangers albeit different words. I agree though found it a bit cringe

It's so cringeworthy.

These guys are the ones who have chosen not to go down the easy route so many from Ayrshire do and follow Rangers. Instead they go along and support their local team. I take my hat off to those who follow the smaller teams in the west.

SirDavidsNapper
30-04-2018, 08:31 AM
It's so cringeworthy.

These guys are the ones who have chosen not to go down the easy route so many from Ayrshire do and follow Rangers. Instead they go along and support their local team. I take my hat off to those who follow the smaller teams in the west.

:agree: spot on

Mixu62
30-04-2018, 08:33 AM
Killie fans used to sing "killie boys" as an alternative lyric. Perhaps that was what they were singing and a few in the Hibs end mis-heard?

snooky
30-04-2018, 08:37 AM
The weedgie centric media of all varieties have an active agenda of trying to paint sectarianism as a Scotland wide problem to deflect attention from their own OF backyard. Its partly due to commercial self interest and partly due to cowardice as they can tell the OF knuckle draggers that they are not targeting their clubs but "society".

Nil by mouth are part of that agenda, a weedgie based organisation, who are professional fence sitters and who have played straight into the huns narrative.

As much as I would like the club to complain, when the aforementioned agendas pursued continually by everyone from the "quality" press to BBC Scotland we'd be issuing statements with Sevco like regularity. I think a dignified silence is best.
I note that the BBC appears to be taking a dignified silence on the incident at the Glasgow Hilton last night. :coffee:

Dashing Bob S
30-04-2018, 08:40 AM
Nil By Mouth are part of the problem when it comes to tackling sectarianism.

Rather than be honest about where the problem really lies they play along with the lie that this is a widespread problem throughout Scottish football. It's not. A majority of Hibs fans, Hearts fans, Aberdeen fans, Dundee fans, St Mirren fans and so on and so forth are not likely to indulge in behaviour that you will see elsewhere.

Finally, and this will go down like a lead balloon, if we are talking about sectarianism exclusively then it's Rangers who are the worst of the lot. Celtic fans might sing a lot of stuff that belongs nowhere near a Scottish football stadium but I struggle to think of a song they sing that really qualifies as sectarian in the way 'No Pope of Rome', the revised lyrics to Follow Follow that most of them sing or the Famine Song do.

The biggest issue is this is a societal problem and not a football one, football is just the vehicle for many to express their prejudices. As long as the right to religious freedom is intepreted in Scotland not as the right to attend the place of worship of your choice but rather to march about the streets as part of a fraternal organisation singing about murder and war then the problem continues.

I agree wholeheartedly. Nil by Mouth are a Glasgow centric organization who have chosen to fit their local model of west coast sectarianism onto all areas of Scotland in order to pompously give themselves greater relevance. Thus they’re guilty of spreading it. They seem to do this on the basis that Hibs are ‘Catholic’ and Hearts ‘Protestant’ though, a few ******s excepted, fans of neither club have seen relevance in such self descriptions for generations.

They also seek to be ‘even handed’ within Glasgow by coming out with a lot of sooking up to Paranoid nonsense from some abominable bigots about the term ‘hun’ (which they are) being coterminous with ‘Protestant’ (which they are not.)

In short, an organization that started out with good intentions but has become a cynical go-to ‘sectarian relations industry’ irrelevant bore.

Keith_M
30-04-2018, 08:45 AM
due to work and family commitments it's rare I get to games theses days.Is Forever and ever still sung?still chant dirty orange *******s at the Huns ?

pales into insignificance compared to what rangers sing but still unacceptable.

When did you last go to a game? 30 years ago?

Alan62
30-04-2018, 08:47 AM
Just read the Herald article. Neither the Herald nor Nil By Mouth accuse Hibs of sectarianism. The only mentions of Hibernian are that we didn't respond to their invitation to comment on their demand to stop government funding for football until sectarianism is eradicated from Scottish football and that we regularly use Oriam.

No comment required from the club here as far as I'm concerned.

jacomo
30-04-2018, 09:22 AM
Just read the Herald article. Neither the Herald nor Nil By Mouth accuse Hibs of sectarianism. The only mentions of Hibernian are that we didn't respond to their invitation to comment on their demand to stop government funding for football until sectarianism is eradicated from Scottish football and that we regularly use Oriam.

No comment required from the club here as far as I'm concerned.


They are not making accusations because there is no evidence to base them on.

The club is quite clearly being smeared by association in that article. Mentioning our refusal to respond implies that we have something to hide.

It’s a disgraceful piece of journalism.

WeeRussell
30-04-2018, 09:31 AM
My take is it’s all a bit renouous they’ve left it for others to “join the dots” on our involvement with sectarianism on one hand whilst only asking us for comment as we use the government subsidies facilit along with Hearts.

Completely agree. I’m not sure we’ve any real grounds for action (particularly legal threats etc) though, given they haven’t actually said anything directly, albeit the insinuation is there.

Certainly wouldn’t be against a statement (lol) along the lines of “the reason we didn’t comment...” stating our complete distance from all that *****.

WeeRussell
30-04-2018, 09:33 AM
due to work and family commitments it's rare I get to games theses days.Is Forever and ever still sung?still chant dirty orange *******s at the Huns ?

pales into insignificance compared to what rangers sing but still unacceptable.

I’m 28, and I don’t know what “forever and ever” is.. unless we used to sing the home and away theme?

Alan62
30-04-2018, 12:24 PM
They are not making accusations because there is no evidence to base them on.

The club is quite clearly being smeared by association in that article. Mentioning our refusal to respond implies that we have something to hide.

It’s a disgraceful piece of journalism.

Read it again. It says we didn't comment. It says we use Oriam. It doesn't say why we were asked to comment so maybe there's a veiled insinuation there. I'm not saying that Nil By Mouth gets off scot free here (I don't know much about them) but the correct way to deal with any form of insinuation here would be to challenge it by asking them for some evidence.

In my view, Scottish football doesn't have a problem with sectarianism. Rangers and Celtic do. They're not Scottish football. Hearts have a minority issue. Everybody else is fine.

I also agree that lazy west coasters often imagine it's the same through here as it is through there. It isn't. If Nil By Mouth don't know that they should be invited to Easter Road for the final game of the season. If they still think we have a problem after that, they'll have to change their name to Nil By Eyes and Ears.

Aim Here
30-04-2018, 12:32 PM
Killie fans used to sing "killie boys" as an alternative lyric. Perhaps that was what they were singing and a few in the Hibs end mis-heard?

That is generally what they sing, and it's Ayr United fan blood they're up to their knees in. Somewhat bad taste, but at least it's within footballing rivalry terms rather than religious bigotry (and besides, Hibs fans can match them for bad taste; songs involving Wallace Mercer spring readily to mind)

SirDavidsNapper
30-04-2018, 12:32 PM
I’m 28, and I don’t know what “forever and ever” is.. unless we used to sing the home and away theme?

Im 34 and don't know what it is

jacomo
30-04-2018, 12:34 PM
Read it again. It says we didn't comment. It says we use Oriam. It doesn't say why we were asked to comment so maybe there's a veiled insinuation there. I'm not saying that Nil By Mouth gets off scot free here (I don't know much about them) but the correct way to deal with any form of insinuation here would be to challenge it by asking them for some evidence.

In my view, Scottish football doesn't have a problem with sectarianism. Rangers and Celtic do. They're not Scottish football. Hearts have a minority issue. Everybody else is fine.

I also agree that lazy west coasters often imagine it's the same through here as it is through there. It isn't. If Nil By Mouth don't know that they should be invited to Easter Road for the final game of the season. If they still think we have a problem after that, they'll have to change their name to Nil By Eyes and Ears.


I’ve read it thanks.

Without making any specific allegations, and without any foundation, the journalist is associating Hibs with sectarianism.

The inference is clear and it is disgraceful.

My_Wife_Camille
30-04-2018, 12:38 PM
Forever and ever makes regualr appearances at away games to be fair

snooky
30-04-2018, 12:42 PM
I’ve read it thanks.

Without making any specific allegations, and without any foundation, the journalist is associating Hibs with sectarianism.

The inference is clear and it is disgraceful.

:agree:

Dilute the blame
The name of the game

Colr
30-04-2018, 02:41 PM
I’m sick fed up of these lazy west coast poor excuse for journalists lumping us in with the other 3

Hope the club comes down hard on them

Having lived in Glasgow, I came to the conclusion that they cannot conceieve that Hibs and Hearts are not sectarian clubs and don’t divide on the basis of a religion. They think we’re Edinburgh bersions of them.

They just don’t know any better.

JeMeSouviens
30-04-2018, 02:55 PM
Forever and ever makes regualr appearances at away games to be fair

It actually started on Saturday by a few exuberant chaps in the East near where I was (S45) but they gave up before telling us who wasn't going to master them, so no controversy.

Colr
30-04-2018, 03:08 PM
https://youtu.be/ZI6Qgvy33Uc
Forever and ever makes regualr appearances at away games to be fair

https://youtu.be/ZI6Qgvy33Uc

ancient hibee
30-04-2018, 03:43 PM
Sorry mate, I don't get your point here ..... your suggestion seems to be that the SNP hiding behind the Herald are attempting to show sectarianism as a football wide problem rather than just a west coast one ... what would they have to gain politically by that? If they said it publicly themselves then OK it could be seen as a sop to the unionist Sevco legions, but if its the Herald saying it and there is no actual support of the article by the SNP I cant see what they have gained.

Didn’t explain it very well.What I was trying to say was that with the SNP being upset that their anti sectarian bill has been wiped off the statute book the Herald might be trying to demonstrate that as it is a countrywide problem(to their mind)the SNP were quite right in their approach.

Jack Hackett
30-04-2018, 04:04 PM
Up until this thread started, Nil by Mouth meant nothing to me other than as a movie from way back. For an organisation who's raison d'etre seems to be the elimination of sectarianism, it beggars belief that they appear to either not know about, or totally ignore, the daily bile and hatred spewed out on sevco fan forums.

If any of them just happen to be reading this... and I'm sure they'll have been informed that we're discussing them... I challenge you to visit the forums of the 4 clubs you've named, and not feel dirty after opening virtually any thread on one particular clubs'. I won't name which one, I'll leave you to work that out for yourselves. They're all open to guests... which makes one particular club's even more abhorrent. Go on. I dare you.

Keith_M
30-04-2018, 06:22 PM
Where does it say in the article anything about Hibs fans being sectarian?

As I read it, Nil by Mouth are proposing the Scottish Government subvert monies currently paid to the SFA and SPFL as a way to force compliance.

It seems that they (the newspaper) asked four of the bigger Scottish clubs about Nil by Mouth's proposal and:

'Both Old Firm clubs, as well as Heart of Midlothian and Hibernian, failed to respond to Sunday Herald requests for comment about Nil By Mouth's demand.'


Maybe you wouldn't have had to ask that if you'd actually read my post properly, e.g. this part...


"It's unclear from the article whether Nil-By-Mouth have also accused Hibs by name but the reporter has definitely named us as one of the four clubs in question"

w pilton hibby
30-04-2018, 06:34 PM
Maybe you wouldn't have had to ask that if you'd actually read my post properly, e.g. this part...


"It's unclear from the article whether Nil-By-Mouth have also accused Hibs by name but the reporter has definitely named us as one of the four clubs in question"

My reading of the article is the same as Alan62.

"Neither the Herald nor Nil By Mouth accuse Hibs of sectarianism. The only mentions of Hibernian are that we didn't respond to their invitation to comment on their demand to stop government funding for football until sectarianism is eradicated from Scottish football and that we regularly use Oriam."

If you'd answered my question properly I wouldn't have to ask it again.

Where does it say in the article anything about Hibs fans being sectarian?

brianmc
30-04-2018, 06:42 PM
Im 34 and don't know what it is

Here's a wee bit of the lyrics see if that helps?

"..We'll keep the green flag flying high,
So bring on the hearts, the Celts, the rangers,
Bring on the Spaniards by the score, Barcelona, Real Madrid....."

I've omitted the non PC parts. If you're 34 and not heard that sung at a hibs game you must've only started going when you were 33¾ - which I doubt.

Keith_M
30-04-2018, 06:45 PM
My reading of the article is the same as Alan62.

"Neither the Herald nor Nil By Mouth accuse Hibs of sectarianism. The only mentions of Hibernian are that we didn't respond to their invitation to comment on their demand to stop government funding for football until sectarianism is eradicated from Scottish football and that we regularly use Oriam."

If you'd answered my question properly I wouldn't have to ask it again.

Where does it say in the article anything about Hibs fans being sectarian?


Firstly, I accept your apology for claiming I said Nil By Mouth had definitely named Hibs, even although I said no such thing.

Secondly, the article quite clearly names Hibs and tries to link us with an article on Sectarianism, otherwise why mention each of the four clubs at all. If you fail to see that, then that's your problem and I can't help you with that.

Colr
30-04-2018, 07:19 PM
I’m 28, and I don’t know what “forever and ever” is.. unless we used to sing the home and away theme?

This:

https://youtu.be/ZI6Qgvy33Uc


Laurence likes a drop of wine, actually. Oh it's Beaujolais. Fantastic! I’ll pop it in the fridge!

Tinribs
30-04-2018, 07:34 PM
https://youtu.be/ZI6Qgvy33Uc

https://youtu.be/ZI6Qgvy33Uc

Thanks for posting that, I had forgotten what a great voice Demis Roussos had 👍

Billy Whizz
30-04-2018, 07:40 PM
Strange thing is, I go home and away, never hear anything sectarian from Hibs fans?
If I did, I’d point it out to the nearest steward

WhileTheChief..
30-04-2018, 08:09 PM
I just read it.

A bit of a leap to be saying that the Herald accuse us of being sectarian.

In fact, it says nothing of the sort.

The Herald asked Hibs for comment on a proposal from Nil by Mouth. Hibs didn’t respond.

They mention that Hibs use Oriam.

Thats it, nothing else whatsoever about us.

SRHibs
30-04-2018, 08:14 PM
Hun is a weird one. I watched a documentary about the current state of sectarianism in Ireland, and a common tag to see on walls is KAH(Kill All Huns) in reference to Protestants in general, as opposed to Rangers fans exclusively.

I can’t take any moral high ground here because hun is a word I use frequently when talking about The Rangers’ fans, however language evolves and we may be heading in the direction where the use of the word is heavily frowned upon.

Jones28
30-04-2018, 08:17 PM
Can I get a PM of the song in question?

Need to sharpen up for Aberdeen on Saturday 😜

SRHibs
30-04-2018, 08:21 PM
Can I get a PM of the song in question?

Need to sharpen up for Aberdeen on Saturday 😜

I’ve heard it in the old terracing:

Forever and ever, we’ll follow the boys,
The Edinburgh Hibees, the tim malloys,
We’ll never be mastered, by no Orange ******* etc.

Viva_Palmeiras
30-04-2018, 08:45 PM
I just read it.

A bit of a leap to be saying that the Herald accuse us of being sectarian.

In fact, it says nothing of the sort.

The Herald asked Hibs for comment on a proposal from Nil by Mouth. Hibs didn’t respond.

They mention that Hibs use Oriam.

Thats it, nothing else whatsoever about us.

That’s where I got to with it. I think it’s the implication that could be seen as mischief making. What response were they looking for ? Hibs’ view on the impact of losing “subsidy” for playing at the Oriam? Or Hibs’ stance on sectarianism in Scottish football?

Dunbar Hibee
30-04-2018, 08:50 PM
Here's a wee bit of the lyrics see if that helps?

"..We'll keep the green flag flying high,
So bring on the hearts, the Celts, the rangers,
Bring on the Spaniards by the score, Barcelona, Real Madrid....."

I've omitted the non PC parts. If you're 34 and not heard that sung at a hibs game you must've only started going when you were 33¾ - which I doubt.

Fake news.

Eyrie
30-04-2018, 10:23 PM
I just read it.

A bit of a leap to be saying that the Herald accuse us of being sectarian.

In fact, it says nothing of the sort.

The Herald asked Hibs for comment on a proposal from Nil by Mouth. Hibs didn’t respond.

They mention that Hibs use Oriam.

Thats it, nothing else whatsoever about us.

Anyone reading the article will assume there is an obvious reason why were Hibs asked about sectarianism.

Yet it's only a relevant question for Celtc and Sevco, so it's clear mischief making to include us and Hearts especially when no other clubs are name checked.

NAE NOOKIE
01-05-2018, 01:19 AM
Anyone reading the article will assume there is an obvious reason why were Hibs asked about sectarianism.

Yet it's only a relevant question for Celtc and Sevco, so it's clear mischief making to include us and Hearts especially when no other clubs are name checked.

This is my take on it as well. Several posters are correct in saying that Nil by Mouth are not quoted in the article as accusing us of being sectarian and the article itself doesn't do that directly either. But on the other hand anybody reading it would without a doubt form a correlation between the subject matter and us being one of only two clubs outwith the Ugly sisters asked by the Herald to comment on it ...... if the inference isn't that Hibs ( and Hearts ) are part of the sectarian problem why are we the only two clubs outside of the ugly sisters being asked to comment, why not Aberdeen or Dundee Utd or St Mirren or Airdrie or any of the other 40 SPFL clubs they could have asked who aren't Celtic or Sevco?

As has been said, this is far from the first time Hibs and Hibs fans have been directly, or as in this case tacitly, accused of being part of the sectarian problem. IMO there is a hell of a lot of mileage in the theory that Nil by Mouth and a number of lazy west coast journalists routinely look upon Hibs and Hearts as some sort of mini Edinburgh version of Glasgow's hate fest, where in actual fact nothing could be further from the truth, and that it is indeed indicative of their own inverted sectarian outlook where they look at the early history of Edinburgh's two major clubs ( Protestant and Catholic ) but seemingly have no idea of what we are like now.

If its not a deliberate policy of Nil by Mouth to paint Hibs as a club with a sectarian problem they have a funny way of showing it. There can be little doubt that they monitor fans forums like this one, I would be incredibly surprised if they don't. I wonder if Nil by Mouth would like to register on here and explain exactly what their take on Hibernian Football Club and the people who support it actually is and if they are claiming we have, or are part of, a sectarian problem what evidence they can provide to back that up.

When I say that I am not talking about the odd idiot here and there caught singing a sectarian song on a train or some guy waving a tricolour at Hampden ( not sectarian in my view ) ..... I am talking about evidence that Hibernian FC has a sectarian attitude endemic within the club's support which manifests itself at Easter Road or in grounds around Scotland on a Saturday which could justify Nil by Mouth directly or indirectly accusing us of being part of the problem, when the truth is no club in Scotland has worked harder or I would contest more successfully to eradicate what sectarian problem we may have had in the distant past.

So c'mon Nil by Brain .... lets be avin' ya :I'm waiti

Haymaker
01-05-2018, 01:22 AM
Here's a wee bit of the lyrics see if that helps?

"..We'll keep the green flag flying high,
So bring on the hearts, the Celts, the rangers,
Bring on the Spaniards by the score, Barcelona, Real Madrid....."

I've omitted the non PC parts. If you're 34 and not heard that sung at a hibs game you must've only started going when you were 33¾ - which I doubt.

I've heard it sung at games and I've been to a **** load less games than most on here.

NAE NOOKIE
01-05-2018, 01:36 AM
I've heard it sung at games and I've been to a **** load less games than most on here.

When was the last time it was sung at Easter Road? .... I genuinely cant remember hearing it for many years and I've barely missed a home game ( perhaps two ) in the last 20 odd years.

Haymaker
01-05-2018, 02:00 AM
When was the last time it was sung at Easter Road? .... I genuinely cant remember hearing it for many years and I've barely missed a home game ( perhaps two ) in the last 20 odd years.

Last time I heard it was at the league cup final.

Edit: I'm not sure I've heard it at ER but definitely in boozers before/after

Viva_Palmeiras
01-05-2018, 02:28 AM
This is my take on it as well. Several posters are correct in saying that Nil by Mouth are not quoted in the article as accusing us of being sectarian and the article itself doesn't do that directly either. But on the other hand anybody reading it would without a doubt form a correlation between the subject matter and us being one of only two clubs outwith the Ugly sisters asked by the Herald to comment on it ...... if the inference isn't that Hibs ( and Hearts ) are part of the sectarian problem why are we the only two clubs outside of the ugly sisters being asked to comment, why not Aberdeen or Dundee Utd or St Mirren or Airdrie or any of the other 40 SPFL clubs they could have asked who aren't Celtic or Sevco?

As has been said, this is far from the first time Hibs and Hibs fans have been directly, or as in this case tacitly, accused of being part of the sectarian problem. IMO there is a hell of a lot of mileage in the theory that Nil by Mouth and a number of lazy west coast journalists routinely look upon Hibs and Hearts as some sort of mini Edinburgh version of Glasgow's hate fest, where in actual fact nothing could be further from the truth, and that it is indeed indicative of their own inverted sectarian outlook where they look at the early history of Edinburgh's two major clubs ( Protestant and Catholic ) but seemingly have no idea of what we are like now.

If its not a deliberate policy of Nil by Mouth to paint Hibs as a club with a sectarian problem they have a funny way of showing it. There can be little doubt that they monitor fans forums like this one, I would be incredibly surprised if they don't. I wonder if Nil by Mouth would like to register on here and explain exactly what their take on Hibernian Football Club and the people who support it actually is and if they are claiming we have, or are part of, a sectarian problem what evidence they can provide to back that up.

When I say that I am not talking about the odd idiot here and there caught singing a sectarian song on a train or some guy waving a tricolour at Hampden ( not sectarian in my view ) ..... I am talking about evidence that Hibernian FC has a sectarian attitude endemic within the club's support which manifests itself at Easter Road or in grounds around Scotland on a Saturday which could justify Nil by Mouth directly or indirectly accusing us of being part of the problem, when the truth is no club in Scotland has worked harder or I would contest more successfully to eradicate what sectarian problem we may have had in the distant past.

So c'mon Nil by Brain .... lets be avin' ya :I'm waiti

If you want to get in the thick of it what better way than tap into controversy?

superfurryhibby
01-05-2018, 07:18 AM
I’ve already mentioned this but no one responded, so I’ll try again.

Do supporters of all football teams not refer to Rangers as the Hun? As all my pals are Hibees, with one exception, it’s hard for me to say, but I assume that this is the case. Surely this fundamental factor further discreditis any feeble collusionary attempts to tarnish our club with the sectarian label.

hibIBZ
01-05-2018, 07:45 AM
Last time I heard it was at the league cup final.

Edit: I'm not sure I've heard it at ER but definitely in boozers before/after


I heard this sung on Saturday in the east ( back few rows of sect.43) however it was by only 3-5 people that looked like they had had a few and nobody else joined in. Also heard the Wallace Mercer song which I know many disagree with, myself included

Alan62
01-05-2018, 08:08 AM
I don't know anything about Nil By Mouth or where they stand on Hibs. However, having read the article a number of times, my interpretation is that they asked us and Hearts (about their proposal that the Government should withhold monies from Scottish football until sectarian issues are addressed) because we are regular users of Oriam.

Having said that, I am sure there are people in Glasgow (journalists and activists included) who imagine Hibs and Hearts divide like Celtic and Rangers. We don't.

What would be nice is if someone (preferably someone connected with the club) asked both the Herald and Nil By Mouth to clarify whether they thought there was a problem with sectarianism amongst Hibernian fans. If Nil By Mouth think there is, then they should identify that problem and discuss a strategy for eradicating it.

superfurryhibby
01-05-2018, 08:22 AM
I don't know anything about Nil By Mouth or where they stand on Hibs. However, having read the article a number of times, my interpretation is that they asked us and Hearts (about their proposal that the Government should withhold monies from Scottish football until sectarian issues are addressed) because we are regular users of Oriam.

Having said that, I am sure there are people in Glasgow (journalists and activists included) who imagine Hibs and Hearts divide like Celtic and Rangers. We don't.

What would be nice is if someone (preferably someone connected with the club) asked both the Herald and Nil By Mouth to clarify whether they thought there was a problem with sectarianism amongst Hibernian fans. If Nil By Mouth think there is, then they should identify that problem and discuss a strategy for eradicating it.

On their website, under history of sectarianism, they highlight Hibs and Hearts in the same sentence as Rangers and Celtic when referring to bigotry in football. They also refer to the use of Hun as being offensive to protestants.

We all know that the Huns were violent barbarians who created havoc, a bit like Rangers fans on an away day. Not getting any religious associations from that myself.

ian cruise
01-05-2018, 08:37 AM
On their website, under history of sectarianism, they highlight Hibs and Hearts in the same sentence as Rangers and Celtic when referring to bigotry in football. They also refer to the use of Hun as being offensive to protestants.

We all know that the Huns were violent barbarians who created havoc, a bit like Rangers fans on an away day. Not getting any religious associations from that myself.

People out here in the west definitely assume we are the same as The old firm and have the same problems with bigotry and divide over non football reasons. Articles like this will just fuel their misconceptions, it's guilt by association.

JeMeSouviens
01-05-2018, 09:25 AM
I don't know anything about Nil By Mouth or where they stand on Hibs. However, having read the article a number of times, my interpretation is that they asked us and Hearts (about their proposal that the Government should withhold monies from Scottish football until sectarian issues are addressed) because we are regular users of Oriam.

Having said that, I am sure there are people in Glasgow (journalists and activists included) who imagine Hibs and Hearts divide like Celtic and Rangers. We don't.

What would be nice is if someone (preferably someone connected with the club) asked both the Herald and Nil By Mouth to clarify whether they thought there was a problem with sectarianism amongst Hibernian fans. If Nil By Mouth think there is, then they should identify that problem and discuss a strategy for eradicating it.

:agree: Totally. When I lived in Glasgow most of the natives who knew I supported Hibs were shocked and stunned to subsequently learn I wasn't Catholic.

Caversham Green
01-05-2018, 09:28 AM
As a side issue, the article strikes me as deliberately misleading regarding the funding.

It tells us that funding was £14m, but that was from 2011 to 2017 - a period of seven years, amounting to only £2m per year on average. It then goes on to break down that sum, giving the initial impression that this is further funding rather than the same £14m. However £2.7m of that was paid between 2011 and 2013 - that suggests that these grants have already stopped so future equivalent funding is reduced to £11.3m over the next seven years.

The Oriam is depicted as being entirely dedicated to football, suggesting that the Government 'gave' football another £25m when it is in fact a centre for all sports in Scotland which is the reason it was partly funded by the Government.

The article also implies that the SFA represents only the professional game here -
Any ban would be targeted at the professional game, the Scottish Football Association (SFA) and Scottish Professional Football League (SPFL). - but the SFA (which was the main recipient of what little funding there actually was) is the governing body of all football in Scotland - schoolboy, amateur, professional and women's football - so the proposal is to punish everyone because the two biggest clubs in the country (who would actually suffer the least from any withdrawal of funds) can't get their house in order.

Alan62
01-05-2018, 09:32 AM
I've written to Nil By Mouth asking them to clarify the statement on their website. I'll let you know if they respond.

KingFranck
01-05-2018, 09:37 AM
Interesting piece about Scottish Premiership giants Hearts and Hibs also regularly train at the site.
I'm sure we built East Mains to train at ?
Yes we use the Oriam to play matches but not to train? Can someone clarify that ?

superfurryhibby
01-05-2018, 09:54 AM
I've written to Nil By Mouth asking them to clarify the statement on their website. I'll let you know if they respond.

They won’t. They aren’t interested in any other view, except their own wilfully ignorant one.

Alan62
01-05-2018, 10:52 AM
They won’t. They aren’t interested in any other view, except their own wilfully ignorant one.

I received a very quick and detailed response from their Campaign Director. I have asked him out of courtesy to let me know if I can share his comments on the forum. Will let you know when he responds to that.

WeeRussell
01-05-2018, 11:31 AM
I’ve heard it in the old terracing:

Forever and ever, we’ll follow the boys,
The Edinburgh Hibees, the tim malloys,
We’ll never be mastered, by no Orange ******* etc.

I do know the song actually... I just never knew it began with "forever and ever" so didn't realise it was this.

Heard it in pub this season (before a Hearts or Rangers game and amongst other chants that have no place in our crowd) and I THINK in the old east terracing. But not at a game in recent years as far as I recall.

It's a catchy wee tune too!

Alan62
01-05-2018, 11:48 AM
After reading both this thread and the reference to Hibernian in the 'History of Sectarianism' section of the Nil By Mouth website, I wrote to their Campaign Director, David Scott.

To his credit, he responded very quickly and has graciously allowed me to share his response to my questions.

In response to the Herald article, he said this:

"I should stress in that Herald interview that I didn’t mention Hibs or indeed any other club. We wished to highlight the amount of public money the Game’s governing body receive and question how this could be reconciled with their chronic failure to address sectarianism. This was highlighted most recently by a number of match delegated who turned whistleblowers : https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43395124"

So, as suspected, a bit of lazy journalism from the Herald chaps.

Regarding the reference to Hibernian on their website (and to my invitation for him to come to ER to hear and see how our fans behave on a matchday) he initially responded with this:

"The content you refer to is in the ‘History of sectarianism’ section of our website, which provides a brief reflection on the subject in a historical context. I do not feel that the problem of sectarianism is very prevalent in Edinburgh football these days (although as you say it is not unknown) and I do make this point when people bring it up in workshops or media interviews. But historically it has reared its ugly head and that’s why it’s referred to briefly in that section of the site. By way of example, if you consult ‘In Colours Green and White: A post War History of Hibs’ by John Campbell you’ll find reference to then Chairman Tom Hart speaking out about such chanting and flying of banners in the 1970s by a minority of fans - particularly after the murder of Lord Mountbatten and others aboard his vessel during the troubles.

Thank you for the kind invitation to join you at a game, I lived for 18 months in Albion Road and attended numerous Hibs games in that time and very rarely heard any sectarian language or chanting in the ground."

He also added this:

"In closing, Nil by Mouth is of the view that the vast majority of followers of all 42 SPFL clubs abhor sectarianism. I have little doubt that it the case at Hibs. We do not seek to ‘tar’ supporters or attack them - rather we wish to empower the, often silent, majority of them who just want to watch football and leave the baggage in the past."

I couldn't let the fact that a continuous present tense is used in regards to sectarian practices amongst Hibs fans on their website so I requested a rewording of the article on their site and, as a professional writer myself, offered to edit it. He hasn't taken up my offer but has made a commitment to 'take these comments on board' when they overhaul the website soon. Again, I have said we'll monitor that.

So, in short, a fair response from David.

As ever, it is up to all of us as supporters of the Club to ensure that we are never complacent and that we always do our bit to ensure that sectarianism, racism, homophobia or any other kind of bigotry has no place at Easter Road or wherever we go to support Hibernian Football Club.

surreyhibbie
01-05-2018, 11:57 AM
:agree: Totally. When I lived in Glasgow most of the natives who knew I supported Hibs were shocked and stunned to subsequently learn I wasn't Catholic.

I have had exactly the same from Weegies I have met down here.

One Rangers man simply refused to believe I was a Hibby and not Catholic, it just didn't compute..

sad gits

Kato
01-05-2018, 12:05 PM
Wasn't there a court case in recent years during which a judge deemed the use of the word "hun" as non-sectarian?

Smartie
01-05-2018, 12:10 PM
After reading both this thread and the reference to Hibernian in the 'History of Sectarianism' section of the Nil By Mouth website, I wrote to their Campaign Director, David Scott.

To his credit, he responded very quickly and has graciously allowed me to share his response to my questions.

In response to the Herald article, he said this:

"I should stress in that Herald interview that I didn’t mention Hibs or indeed any other club. We wished to highlight the amount of public money the Game’s governing body receive and question how this could be reconciled with their chronic failure to address sectarianism. This was highlighted most recently by a number of match delegated who turned whistleblowers : https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43395124"

So, as suspected, a bit of lazy journalism from the Herald chaps.

Regarding the reference to Hibernian on their website (and to my invitation for him to come to ER to hear and see how our fans behave on a matchday) he initially responded with this:

"The content you refer to is in the ‘History of sectarianism’ section of our website, which provides a brief reflection on the subject in a historical context. I do not feel that the problem of sectarianism is very prevalent in Edinburgh football these days (although as you say it is not unknown) and I do make this point when people bring it up in workshops or media interviews. But historically it has reared its ugly head and that’s why it’s referred to briefly in that section of the site. By way of example, if you consult ‘In Colours Green and White: A post War History of Hibs’ by John Campbell you’ll find reference to then Chairman Tom Hart speaking out about such chanting and flying of banners in the 1970s by a minority of fans - particularly after the murder of Lord Mountbatten and others aboard his vessel during the troubles.

Thank you for the kind invitation to join you at a game, I lived for 18 months in Albion Road and attended numerous Hibs games in that time and very rarely heard any sectarian language or chanting in the ground."

He also added this:

"In closing, Nil by Mouth is of the view that the vast majority of followers of all 42 SPFL clubs abhor sectarianism. I have little doubt that it the case at Hibs. We do not seek to ‘tar’ supporters or attack them - rather we wish to empower the, often silent, majority of them who just want to watch football and leave the baggage in the past."

I couldn't let the fact that a continuous present tense is used in regards to sectarian practices amongst Hibs fans on their website so I requested a rewording of the article on their site and, as a professional writer myself, offered to edit it. He hasn't taken up my offer but has made a commitment to 'take these comments on board' when they overhaul the website soon. Again, I have said we'll monitor that.

So, in short, a fair response from David.

As ever, it is up to all of us as supporters of the Club to ensure that we are never complacent and that we always do our bit to ensure that sectarianism, racism, homophobia or any other kind of bigotry has no place at Easter Road or wherever we go to support Hibernian Football Club.

Interesting stuff.

Thank you and well done for taking this up with them.

TBH the guy's points are perfectly reasonable and I don't have a problem with any of them.

Journalists though, eh?

jgl07
01-05-2018, 12:12 PM
I've written to Nil By Mouth asking them to clarify the statement on their website. I'll let you know if they respond.

Don't hold your breath!

Alan62
01-05-2018, 12:17 PM
Don't hold your breath!

Eh, see above.:rolleyes:

Eyrie
01-05-2018, 12:18 PM
:agree: Totally. When I lived in Glasgow most of the natives who knew I supported Hibs were shocked and stunned to subsequently learn I wasn't Catholic.
My sister had a similar response when her future in laws from Airdrie found out I'm a Hibs fan. This despite us both being raised as Church of Scotland.



Wasn't there a court case in recent years during which a judge deemed the use of the word "hun" as non-sectarian?
It's clearly non-sectarian because it's only ever used to refer to supporters of two clubs (Rangers and Sevco) regardless of their religion or lack thereof.

When is it ever used refer to Protestants as an equivalent to "fenian", "tarrier" or "taig"?

Smartie
01-05-2018, 12:21 PM
My sister had a similar response when her future in laws from Airdrie found out I'm a Hibs fan. This despite us both being raised as Church of Scotland.



It's clearly non-sectarian because it's only ever used to refer to supporters of two clubs (Rangers and Sevco) regardless of their religion or lack thereof.

When is it ever used refer to Protestants as an equivalent to "fenian", "tarrier" or "taig"?

I think in parts of Northern Ireland it is quite commonly used in that context.

I've never really heard it here, only ever thought of huns as being Rangers fans.

If someone was to call me a hun due to my loose links to the family religion then I wouldn't really give it much of a thought.

If someone was to suggest that I had an affinity towards Rangers then it would be a different story. Proper offensive stuff that.

ian cruise
01-05-2018, 12:27 PM
After reading both this thread and the reference to Hibernian in the 'History of Sectarianism' section of the Nil By Mouth website, I wrote to their Campaign Director, David Scott.

To his credit, he responded very quickly and has graciously allowed me to share his response to my questions.

In response to the Herald article, he said this:

"I should stress in that Herald interview that I didn’t mention Hibs or indeed any other club. We wished to highlight the amount of public money the Game’s governing body receive and question how this could be reconciled with their chronic failure to address sectarianism. This was highlighted most recently by a number of match delegated who turned whistleblowers : https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43395124"

So, as suspected, a bit of lazy journalism from the Herald chaps.

Regarding the reference to Hibernian on their website (and to my invitation for him to come to ER to hear and see how our fans behave on a matchday) he initially responded with this:

"The content you refer to is in the ‘History of sectarianism’ section of our website, which provides a brief reflection on the subject in a historical context. I do not feel that the problem of sectarianism is very prevalent in Edinburgh football these days (although as you say it is not unknown) and I do make this point when people bring it up in workshops or media interviews. But historically it has reared its ugly head and that’s why it’s referred to briefly in that section of the site. By way of example, if you consult ‘In Colours Green and White: A post War History of Hibs’ by John Campbell you’ll find reference to then Chairman Tom Hart speaking out about such chanting and flying of banners in the 1970s by a minority of fans - particularly after the murder of Lord Mountbatten and others aboard his vessel during the troubles.

Thank you for the kind invitation to join you at a game, I lived for 18 months in Albion Road and attended numerous Hibs games in that time and very rarely heard any sectarian language or chanting in the ground."

He also added this:

"In closing, Nil by Mouth is of the view that the vast majority of followers of all 42 SPFL clubs abhor sectarianism. I have little doubt that it the case at Hibs. We do not seek to ‘tar’ supporters or attack them - rather we wish to empower the, often silent, majority of them who just want to watch football and leave the baggage in the past."

I couldn't let the fact that a continuous present tense is used in regards to sectarian practices amongst Hibs fans on their website so I requested a rewording of the article on their site and, as a professional writer myself, offered to edit it. He hasn't taken up my offer but has made a commitment to 'take these comments on board' when they overhaul the website soon. Again, I have said we'll monitor that.

So, in short, a fair response from David.

As ever, it is up to all of us as supporters of the Club to ensure that we are never complacent and that we always do our bit to ensure that sectarianism, racism, homophobia or any other kind of bigotry has no place at Easter Road or wherever we go to support Hibernian Football Club.

Good work and thanks for sharing

WeeRussell
01-05-2018, 12:29 PM
After reading both this thread and the reference to Hibernian in the 'History of Sectarianism' section of the Nil By Mouth website, I wrote to their Campaign Director, David Scott.

To his credit, he responded very quickly and has graciously allowed me to share his response to my questions.

In response to the Herald article, he said this:

"I should stress in that Herald interview that I didn’t mention Hibs or indeed any other club. We wished to highlight the amount of public money the Game’s governing body receive and question how this could be reconciled with their chronic failure to address sectarianism. This was highlighted most recently by a number of match delegated who turned whistleblowers : https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43395124"

So, as suspected, a bit of lazy journalism from the Herald chaps.

Regarding the reference to Hibernian on their website (and to my invitation for him to come to ER to hear and see how our fans behave on a matchday) he initially responded with this:

"The content you refer to is in the ‘History of sectarianism’ section of our website, which provides a brief reflection on the subject in a historical context. I do not feel that the problem of sectarianism is very prevalent in Edinburgh football these days (although as you say it is not unknown) and I do make this point when people bring it up in workshops or media interviews. But historically it has reared its ugly head and that’s why it’s referred to briefly in that section of the site. By way of example, if you consult ‘In Colours Green and White: A post War History of Hibs’ by John Campbell you’ll find reference to then Chairman Tom Hart speaking out about such chanting and flying of banners in the 1970s by a minority of fans - particularly after the murder of Lord Mountbatten and others aboard his vessel during the troubles.

Thank you for the kind invitation to join you at a game, I lived for 18 months in Albion Road and attended numerous Hibs games in that time and very rarely heard any sectarian language or chanting in the ground."

He also added this:

"In closing, Nil by Mouth is of the view that the vast majority of followers of all 42 SPFL clubs abhor sectarianism. I have little doubt that it the case at Hibs. We do not seek to ‘tar’ supporters or attack them - rather we wish to empower the, often silent, majority of them who just want to watch football and leave the baggage in the past."

I couldn't let the fact that a continuous present tense is used in regards to sectarian practices amongst Hibs fans on their website so I requested a rewording of the article on their site and, as a professional writer myself, offered to edit it. He hasn't taken up my offer but has made a commitment to 'take these comments on board' when they overhaul the website soon. Again, I have said we'll monitor that.

So, in short, a fair response from David.

As ever, it is up to all of us as supporters of the Club to ensure that we are never complacent and that we always do our bit to ensure that sectarianism, racism, homophobia or any other kind of bigotry has no place at Easter Road or wherever we go to support Hibernian Football Club.

Good effort and thanks for sharing. I've met Dave at a social event and sat speaking and drinking with him for a while. Seems a very level-headed guy with a genuine want to do good with his project. Was only the impression I got from meeting him but I really can't imagine him having any sort of 'agenda'.

Kato
01-05-2018, 12:36 PM
When is it ever used refer to Protestants as an equivalent to "fenian", "tarrier" or "taig"?

Whenever Rangers fans complain that it is sectarian.

Keith_M
01-05-2018, 12:42 PM
Whenever Rangers fans complain that it is sectarian.


In other words, 'whitabootery'.

Eyrie
01-05-2018, 12:48 PM
I think in parts of Northern Ireland it is quite commonly used in that context.

I've never really heard it here, only ever thought of huns as being Rangers fans.

If someone was to call me a hun due to my loose links to the family religion then I wouldn't really give it much of a thought.

If someone was to suggest that I had an affinity towards Rangers then it would be a different story. Proper offensive stuff that.
I'd strongly suspect that the use of the term "hun" in Northern Ireland started as a reference to Rangers/Sevco fans rather than being an original name for Protestants over there.


Whenever Rangers fans complain that it is sectarian.

In other words, 'whitabootery'.
Which neatly proves that it isn't used to describe followers of a particular interpretation of a particular religion but only followers of two particular football teams.

SRHibs
01-05-2018, 01:02 PM
My sister had a similar response when her future in laws from Airdrie found out I'm a Hibs fan. This despite us both being raised as Church of Scotland.



It's clearly non-sectarian because it's only ever used to refer to supporters of two clubs (Rangers and Sevco) regardless of their religion or lack thereof.

When is it ever used refer to Protestants as an equivalent to "fenian", "tarrier" or "taig"?

In Ireland it’s used to refer to Protestants.

Kato
01-05-2018, 01:29 PM
In Ireland it’s used to refer to Protestants.

Then they've misinterpreted it's use and besides, this isn't Ireland (at least the east coast isn't.)

superfurryhibby
01-05-2018, 01:44 PM
Without wanting to re-quote the Nil by Mouth response. He refers to the time of Tom Hart and requests to cease the singing of sectarian songs. Hart’s tenure ended more than 30 years ago, so it’s hardly relevant now and as stated the language uses the present tense. It should be removed from the section of their website or amended to show how times change and fans move on.

Also, whilst Hibs fans did indulge in pro IRA songs and the more historical rebel songs, it was never against a backdrop of institutional sectarianism. As a teenager I would join in the likes of the Mountbatten song with glee. I was in no way anti-protestant or a genuine supporter of violent republicanism. It was stupid and immature and I, like the club, moved on from it. I genuinely wonder how many Huns can say they don’t hold anti Catholic views?

Growing up from pre lubescent to late teens in the 70’s , I can also say with certainty that Hun described the behaviour of the Rangers fan. The sectarian term used of choice was **** off ya dirty Orange *******. Hun was just a general insult.

jgl07
01-05-2018, 01:46 PM
I read that the term 'Hun' came into use after an English Journalist likened Rangers fans to Attila the Hun's followers laying an area to waste at a match down South.

Anyone who was in Manchester during Rangers' 2008 UEFA Cup Final appearance will empathize.

Sevco fans routlinely refer to Hibs supporters as 'Fenians'.

What Hibs have to do with 19th Century American terrorists I do not know?

Kato
01-05-2018, 01:52 PM
Growing up from pre lubescent to late teens in the 70’s , I can also say with certainty that Hun described the behaviour of the Rangers fan. The sectarian term used of choice was **** off ya dirty Orange *******. Hun was just a general insult.

Oops, I'm sure someone with a dry wit will have a quip about that typo.

Jack Hackett
01-05-2018, 03:02 PM
Oops, I'm sure someone with a dry wit will have a quip about that typo.

I was gonna, but I've changed my mind now :greengrin

WeeRussell
01-05-2018, 03:41 PM
Without wanting to re-quote the Nil by Mouth response. He refers to the time of Tom Hart and requests to cease the singing of sectarian songs. Hart’s tenure ended more than 30 years ago, so it’s hardly relevant now and as stated the language uses the present tense. It should be removed from the section of their website or amended to show how times change and fans move on.

Also, whilst Hibs fans did indulge in pro IRA songs and the more historical rebel songs, it was never against a backdrop of institutional sectarianism. As a teenager I would join in the likes of the Mountbatten song with glee. I was in no way anti-protestant or a genuine supporter of violent republicanism. It was stupid and immature and I, like the club, moved on from it. I genuinely wonder how many Huns can say they don’t hold anti Catholic views?

Growing up from pre lubescent to late teens in the 70’s , I can also say with certainty that Hun described the behaviour of the Rangers fan. The sectarian term used of choice was **** off ya dirty Orange *******. Hun was just a general insult.

Know what you’re getting at and agree to an extent, but we can hardly claim it’s okay for one group to sing songs because they don’t mean it and be disgusted by another group who we think do.

Alan62
01-05-2018, 03:53 PM
Without wanting to re-quote the Nil by Mouth response. He refers to the time of Tom Hart and requests to cease the singing of sectarian songs. Hart’s tenure ended more than 30 years ago, so it’s hardly relevant now and as stated the language uses the present tense. It should be removed from the section of their website or amended to show how times change and fans move on.

It's 37 years since Tom Hart sold the Club to Kenny Waugh. So we know for a fact that Hibernian FC has been working on these issues for at least 40 years and, probably, a lot longer.

If Rangers and Celtic had spent 40 odd years closing down sectarian behaviour then the situation would be a lot better now. Having said that, as we all know, the divide galvanises and extends their constituency and has a real financial premium. It won't be stopping anytime soon.

As for Nil By Mouth's website, they've indicated that they'll review it. We should give them the opportunity to do just that while closely monitoring progress.

Smartie
01-05-2018, 04:01 PM
Know what you’re getting at and agree to an extent, but we can hardly claim it’s okay for one group to sing songs because they don’t mean it and be disgusted by another group who we think do.

I'm also far less concerned about the language that may have been used at Ibrox in the 1970s than the type of language that is acceptable on the likes of Rangers Media today.

where'stheslope
01-05-2018, 04:11 PM
The big picture on this, is that for years Hibs and Hearts have been labelled as watered down versions of Celtic and Rangers, and by using our good name in articles like this it waters down any problems that may be appearing on Celtic or Rangers horizons???
If we are honest, we do have a slight affinity with Celtic as Hearts do with Rangers, and this is what lazy and poor journalists latch onto to create a sympathy for their big 2!!!
Sectarianism only really looms large during Old Firm Games or games with them in it, yes there maybe the occasional chant from others, but in the main its mostly down to the Old Firm!!!

Mr White
01-05-2018, 04:24 PM
In Ireland it’s used to refer to Protestants.

I'm not sure that's very widespread tbh. I've never heard it used as a term to describe protestants in general. I haven't seen the documentary you've referred to but I'm wondering how accurate the definition of huns as "all protestants" rather than "rangers fans" can be.

In Scottish terms for me it's very simple. If a Catholic, Muslim or Jew decided to support rangers I'd describe them as a hun. If a flute playing orangeman supports Man Utd, Chelsea or Liverpool, or has no interest in football at all then he's not a hun. It's never been used as a sectarian term by Scottish football fans AFAIK.

superfurryhibby
01-05-2018, 04:35 PM
Know what you’re getting at and agree to an extent, but we can hardly claim it’s okay for one group to sing songs because they don’t mean it and be disgusted by another group who we think do.

Totally agree. The main difference is that Hibs fans moved on. What was acceptable in the 70’s is no longer acceptable now. That doesn’t just apply to football. Lots of behaviours that were mainstream then, casual racism, sexism and so on, are beyond the pale. The same with sectarian singing at football.

The Pointer
01-05-2018, 04:35 PM
The big picture on this, is that for years Hibs and Hearts have been labelled as watered down versions of Celtic and Rangers, and by using our good name in articles like this it waters down any problems that may be appearing on Celtic or Rangers horizons???
If we are honest, we do have a slight affinity with Celtic as Hearts do with Rangers, and this is what lazy and poor journalists latch onto to create a sympathy for their big 2!!!
Sectarianism only really looms large during Old Firm Games or games with them in it, yes there maybe the occasional chant from others, but in the main its mostly down to the Old Firm!!!

I certainly do not have "a slight affinity" with Celtic and it offends me (about the only thing in life that does) when people make that presumption. I get as hacked off listening to their terrorist chants as I do their chums from the other side of Glasgow and I wish Hibs fans would complain more about it.

We managed to brush that particular kind of **** out of our stable in the 80s.

Alan62
01-05-2018, 06:13 PM
If we are honest, we do have a slight affinity with Celtic as Hearts do with Rangers, and this is what lazy and poor journalists latch onto to create a sympathy for their big 2!!!

I have no affinity with Celtic and neither does Hibernian FC as far as I'm concerned. The Hearts fans I know also hate any suggestion that they have an affinity with Rangers.

It's not a thing. Any affinity that Celtic had with the Club that helped to start them up ended when they stole our strips and our players. We're not the East's Celtic any more than they're the West's Hibs.

superbam
01-05-2018, 06:49 PM
In Ireland it’s used to refer to Protestants.

Is it? Cant say i have ever heard the term being used except in reference to fans of the rangers over here

Mick O'Rourke
01-05-2018, 07:14 PM
I have heard a number of theories as to when and where the term "Hun" was used/started at football matches.
Liverpool FC started what became decades of Europeon football during the 1960s.
I cannot button down the particular game,but the story goes that Liverpool,at home to a German side and the Koppites (who used to sing Beatles songs!) gave a rendition of "Go home ya Huns "
Obvious reference to their opponents.

Dont mention the war!
Soon after Celtic began that very same chant towards the club formerly known as Rangers.


Not a chant, but the "strangest song" i heard at a football match.
Well it wasn't a song really, but a hymn and this was in the late sixties.
Hibs game was off one Saturday ,so i went along to Brockville with some Celtic pals.
It was near or on March 17th and the Celtic fans gave a great rendition of "Hail Glorious Saint Patrick"
Now of course being an old Sacred Heart alter boy and knowing every word of the hymn.. i joined in !

Keith_M
01-05-2018, 07:32 PM
In Ireland it’s used to refer to Protestants.


This is Scotland, where it's used to refer to fans of The Rangers, often by Fans of Clubs who are largely Protestant or non-denominational.

barcahibs
01-05-2018, 08:06 PM
Interesting wee analysis on twitter

https://twitter.com/bootifulgame/status/884315139700404224?s=19

Measures the three most common words associated with a selection of football clubs.

Celtc : political; domestic; protestant
Sevco : dead; protestant; medical

Only clubs in the analysis with a religious term associated with them (although Nice get 'terrorist' and chelsea get 'racist' so we're not the only league with issues).

Argylehibby
01-05-2018, 09:39 PM
It's 37 years since Tom Hart sold the Club to Kenny Waugh. So we know for a fact that Hibernian FC has been working on these issues for at least 40 years and, probably, a lot longer.

If Rangers and Celtic had spent 40 odd years closing down sectarian behaviour then the situation would be a lot better now. Having said that, as we all know, the divide galvanises and extends their constituency and has a real financial premium. It won't be stopping anytime soon.

As for Nil By Mouth's website, they've indicated that they'll review it. We should give them the opportunity to do just that while closely monitoring progress.

I've heard for decades how the two of them have done loads "behind the scenes" to clean up their act yet nobody ever asks why it's not done in the full glare of the public. The reason is of course because they do nothing. I remember David Murray saying singing the songs at Ibrox had to stop. "If it doesn't stop we will be fined and banned from Europe."It was headline news at the time yet Chic Young doing the interview didn't think to ask is that the only reason?

When King stated the intention of returning to "Rangers traditions" nobody asked the obvious question, does that mean you won't sign Catholics? Our press are scared to ask the difficult questions because they're scared of the consequences. Same can be said about the government.

Alan62
02-05-2018, 08:27 AM
Quick update on yesterday's conversation with Dave Scott at Nil By Mouth. He emailed me this morning to say that he'd reflected on my comments yesterday regarding the wording in an article on their website that suggests sectarianism is still a problem amongst the Hibernian support.

Dave has now changed the article, removing references to Hibs and Hearts, and it now reflects a much more accurate picture of the problem in Scotland.

I think he deserves a lot of credit for this and, while we may not agree on every aspect of Nil By Mouth's approach, I am sure that we all agree that sectarianism has no place in 21st Century Scotland.

Link here: http://nilbymouth.org/history/

Mr White
02-05-2018, 08:29 AM
Quick update on yesterday's conversation with Dave Scott at Nil By Mouth. He emailed me this morning to say that he'd reflected on my comments yesterday regarding the wording in an article on their website that suggests sectarianism is still a problem amongst the Hibernian support.

Dave has now changed the article, removing references to Hibs and Hearts, and it now reflects a much more accurate picture of the problem in Scotland.

I think he deserves a lot of credit for this and, while we may not agree on every aspect of Nil By Mouth's approach, I am sure that we all agree that sectarianism has no place in 21st Century Scotland.

Link here: http://nilbymouth.org/history/

He does indeed deserve credit for that. So do you for the manner you in which you raised the issue with him. Good work :agree:

Smartie
02-05-2018, 08:37 AM
Tin hat firmly on, but I don't really think we should airbrush our previous issues with sectarianism out of our history.

It happened and it wasn't acceptable.

What also happened was that people within the club took a stand and we saw a change in behaviour, which proves that all but eradicating sectarianism is achievable if you want it to be.

The saddest fact is that too many people pay lip service to cracking down on sectarian behaviour but don't have any real, genuine interest in doing so whatsoever.

JimBHibees
02-05-2018, 08:42 AM
I've heard for decades how the two of them have done loads "behind the scenes" to clean up their act yet nobody ever asks why it's not done in the full glare of the public. The reason is of course because they do nothing. I remember David Murray saying singing the songs at Ibrox had to stop. "If it doesn't stop we will be fined and banned from Europe."It was headline news at the time yet Chic Young doing the interview didn't think to ask is that the only reason?

When King stated the intention of returning to "Rangers traditions" nobody asked the obvious question, does that mean you won't sign Catholics? Our press are scared to ask the difficult questions because they're scared of the consequences. Same can be said about the government.

Good post the only time Rangers in particular took any interest was when UEFA started fining them for it. Unfortunately UEFA appears to have lost the bottle for that sort of action across the board especially when you look at awful racism by fans getting pitiful fines hence encouraging the behaviour in my view. Now it has become more accepted again depressingly outside of what appears to have been a ham fisted attempt at legislation by the Scottish government. When this legislation was repealed with much joy by the proponents of such a move the question was surely what do you think should be done then? As far as I know dont think that has been answered. The footballing authorities and the clubs need to develop a backbone on this issue and it is to their shame that is hasnt happened.

Alan62
02-05-2018, 08:45 AM
Tin hat firmly on, but I don't really think we should airbrush our previous issues with sectarianism out of our history.

It happened and it wasn't acceptable.

What also happened was that people within the club took a stand and we saw a change in behaviour, which proves that all but eradicating sectarianism is achievable if you want it to be.

The saddest fact is that too many people pay lip service to cracking down on sectarian behaviour but don't have any real, genuine interest in doing so whatsoever.

Nobody's doing that. Nobody's suggesting there haven't been problems in the past. And I don't think we can be complacent either. There are always idiots who will latch onto football clubs to try to promote their views. We should be pleased with what's been achieved and work hard to make sure that we continue to make progress.

WeeRussell
02-05-2018, 11:08 AM
Totally agree. The main difference is that Hibs fans moved on. What was acceptable in the 70’s is no longer acceptable now. That doesn’t just apply to football. Lots of behaviours that were mainstream then, casual racism, sexism and so on, are beyond the pale. The same with sectarian singing at football.

Apologies I actually slightly misread your second para on earlier post - you said Hibs fans "did" indulge, whereas I was answering as if you were talking about those select few in boozers etc who occasionally do start the more unacceptable songs.

I think we're in agreement :aok:

Mick O'Rourke
02-05-2018, 11:29 AM
I acknowledge that back in the day anti-orange chants were heard in the Cave when the old Rangers came to town.
And most certainly Irish rebel songs were sang,but they would not now be deemed sectarian.
Would they?
Sean South and The Merry Ploughboy are two i recall being sung.
Sometimes also the Irish national anthem.

On the St Giles bus back in the 60s the bus convener,the great Bernie Glancy would remind us at the back of the bus saying "Nae rebel songs,now. Av heard them awe.Av got them at hame"

Good to read that NBM have amended their "statement"! on the issue regards Hibernian and their supporters.

Eyrie
02-05-2018, 12:01 PM
Quick update on yesterday's conversation with Dave Scott at Nil By Mouth. He emailed me this morning to say that he'd reflected on my comments yesterday regarding the wording in an article on their website that suggests sectarianism is still a problem amongst the Hibernian support.

Dave has now changed the article, removing references to Hibs and Hearts, and it now reflects a much more accurate picture of the problem in Scotland.

I think he deserves a lot of credit for this and, while we may not agree on every aspect of Nil By Mouth's approach, I am sure that we all agree that sectarianism has no place in 21st Century Scotland.

Link here: http://nilbymouth.org/history/
Good work.



Tin hat firmly on, but I don't really think we should airbrush our previous issues with sectarianism out of our history.

It happened and it wasn't acceptable.

What also happened was that people within the club took a stand and we saw a change in behaviour, which proves that all but eradicating sectarianism is achievable if you want it to be.

The saddest fact is that too many people pay lip service to cracking down on sectarian behaviour but don't have any real, genuine interest in doing so whatsoever.
I don't think a tin hat is required. We can note that it was briefly a problem but was quickly resolved and hasn't been an issue for decades which is to our credit. Trying to deny or bury it would make us look stupid (or worse, like politicians).

Brizo
02-05-2018, 12:02 PM
Tin hat firmly on, but I don't really think we should airbrush our previous issues with sectarianism out of our history.

It happened and it wasn't acceptable.

What also happened was that people within the club took a stand and we saw a change in behaviour, which proves that all but eradicating sectarianism is achievable if you want it to be.

The saddest fact is that too many people pay lip service to cracking down on sectarian behaviour but don't have any real, genuine interest in doing so whatsoever.

You are right but maybe worth pointing out to younger readers it wasn't Hibs in isolation.

Going to away games in the 70s and early 80s to the likes of Airdrie, Dundee FC , Falkirk, Hertz , Killie, Motherwell , there was definitely an element in all their supports who adopted sectarian behaviour from the Loyalist side of things. It was definitely part of terracing behaviour among a number of Scottish clubs outwith the Old Firm.

Thankfully it became unacceptable and unfashionable at most of the above clubs by the mid 80s. It was left to those terminally unfashionable clubs Airdrie and Hertz to keep it going after that.

I don't know about Airdrie nowadays but I don't think it ever really went away at Hertz and they seem to be having a bit of a Gorgie "Billy Boys" revival.

Well done to Alan62 in getting NBM to revise their website. NBM have certainly gone up in my estimation.

Smartie
02-05-2018, 12:27 PM
I think the point that I am trying to make is that I think that Hibs have no right to be included in talk of present day sectarianism. The odd bam may make the odd dodgy comment or sing the odd daft song, but sectarianism has no association with the club today in any way.

An article on the "history of sectarianism" may well have justification in mentioning Hibs in the past, along with all of the clubs mentioned above.

I think all of the "other clubs" should stand together on this, as we don't see sectarian behaviour at anything like a significant level outwith the 2 very obvious examples (some may argue that Hearts have an element but I've never really felt the need to lump them in with the Glasgow pair). With a bit of desire, it can be banished.

If it is what makes your club different and you make fortunes off the back of it then there is little desire to change anything - and this is what should be shown up. And I quite agree with the premise that big, rich football clubs should be taken to task on their approach to sectarianism if they are ever to receive public funds.

NAE NOOKIE
02-05-2018, 12:36 PM
Quick update on yesterday's conversation with Dave Scott at Nil By Mouth. He emailed me this morning to say that he'd reflected on my comments yesterday regarding the wording in an article on their website that suggests sectarianism is still a problem amongst the Hibernian support.

Dave has now changed the article, removing references to Hibs and Hearts, and it now reflects a much more accurate picture of the problem in Scotland.

I think he deserves a lot of credit for this and, while we may not agree on every aspect of Nil By Mouth's approach, I am sure that we all agree that sectarianism has no place in 21st Century Scotland.

Link here: http://nilbymouth.org/history/

Credit where its due for amending the website. But it still maintains that the word 'Hun' is used in Scotland as a sectarian term referring to Protestants. No it isn't, I have never in my life heard the term 'Hun' used in reference to Protestants in any walk of life. The only time I've ever heard it used is in reference to supporters of Rangers and now The Rangers ..... To say that us calling the The Rangers fans Huns is sectarian is to maintain that if you support The Rangers you must be a Protestant, for Nil by Mouth or anybody else to presume that is probably borderline sectarian in itself.

Another poster on this thread has said exactly what I said on this subject on a thread a few weeks ago .... if you are a Catholic, a Protestant a Jehova's Witness, a Hindu, a Mormon, a Muslim, a Sikh, a Buddhist, an Atheist or anything else and you pin your colours to the mast of The Rangers 2012 then you are a Hun pure and simple ... it does not and never has had any sectarian meaning.

Dinkydoo
03-05-2018, 12:00 PM
Sadly, the social issues faced in Scotland made worse (encouraged?) by two Glasgow teams is a discussion that I don't think I'm willing to have anymore.

Just recently I was triggered into stating by colleagues really why I dislike Rangers (as a club) so much and well, let's just say there was an awful lot of denial, laughter and twisting of words going on, to such an extent that I myself was beginning to look like the bigot in the room, for daring to associate facism and elitism with the blue side of Glasgow football.

I work and live in Glasgow presently but similar discussions when I've lived elsewhere in the country, have ultimately been met with at best head-in-the-sand behaviour and at worst, an accusation of being out of order myself for walking around with my eyes open to these sorts of problems.

I'm starting to think that really as a society, we get what we deserve.

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Dashing Bob S
03-05-2018, 12:15 PM
Good work.



I don't think a tin hat is required. We can note that it was briefly a problem but was quickly resolved and hasn't been an issue for decades which is to our credit. Trying to deny or bury it would make us look stupid (or worse, like politicians).

I’d go further. I think we need to send a deputation of fan reps to meet Nil by Mouth, tell them exactly this. We still have very occasional issues with fan behavior (derbies, Europe, etc) but this simply isn’t an issue anymore. Hopefully this would make NBM less weedgie centric when talking of ‘Scotland’. If not we can then ignore/denigrate them as an irrelevance or an organization with an opportunistic agenda.

AndyM_1875
03-05-2018, 12:59 PM
Sadly, the social issues faced in Scotland made worse (encouraged?) by two Glasgow teams is a discussion that I don't think I'm willing to have anymore.

Just recently I was triggered into stating by colleagues really why I dislike Rangers (as a club) so much and well, let's just say there was an awful lot of denial, laughter and twisting of words going on, to such an extent that I myself was beginning to look like the bigot in the room, for daring to associate facism and elitism with the blue side of Glasgow football.

I work and live in Glasgow presently but similar discussions when I've lived elsewhere in the country, have ultimately been met with at best head-in-the-sand behaviour and at worst, an accusation of being out of order myself for walking around with my eyes open to these sorts of problems.

I'm starting to think that really as a society, we get what we deserve.

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Don't blame you. I no longer get involved in these sort of chats either at work or socially.

You have to be careful what you say as people will take offence and whether we like it or not if you call an individual who is a Rangers supporter "Hun" in the workplace and they take offence then you will likely get into trouble. At an old place of work I saw one particularly gobby Celtic supporter talk himself out the door and out of a job when it came to contract renewal with his constant tedious ranting about Rangers/Sevco/Huns etc. Was no great loss as he was a pain in the arse but still.... there's a lesson there.

Dinkydoo
03-05-2018, 03:38 PM
Don't blame you. I no longer get involved in these sort of chats either at work or socially.

You have to be careful what you say as people will take offence and whether we like it or not if you call an individual who is a Rangers supporter "Hun" in the workplace and they take offence then you will likely get into trouble. At an old place of work I saw one particularly gobby Celtic supporter talk himself out the door and out of a job when it came to contract renewal with his constant tedious ranting about Rangers/Sevco/Huns etc. Was no great loss as he was a pain in the arse but still.... there's a lesson there.Let's just say I've finally learned my lesson that this kind of discussion is just going to be an exercise in frustration.

It's not even as if I was referring to all Rangers fans but instead I was trying to go down the aproach of why I felt the insitution represented a lot of what's wrong with Scottish society.... but that quickly was turned into "all rangers fans are mini hitlers... which one of colleague x and colleague y do you think is the bigger nazi?"

Nightmare discussion. Even if it all was very piss-take.

Most of this was from a Celtic fan, who explained away the Rodgers Snipers at Work banner earlier this season as well.

Most fans don't appear to get involved in the extreme examples of bigotry that we talk about on here, however from personal experience, the majority of OF supporters don't even want to entertain the idea that its a problem their clubs should be seeking to resolve.

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WhileTheChief..
03-05-2018, 03:39 PM
Would you actually call a Rangers supporting work colleague a Hun?

Common decency should mean that you don’t despite the argument of whether or not it’s a Sectarian term.

Whatever it is, you’d be saying it as an insult. If you’re pulled up for it you’ve only got yourself to blame.

Vini1875
03-05-2018, 05:32 PM
Would you actually call a Rangers supporting work colleague a Hun?

Common decency should mean that you don’t despite the argument of whether or not it’s a Sectarian term.

Whatever it is, you’d be saying it as an insult. If you’re pulled up for it you’ve only got yourself to blame.

Yes I would, but I tend to think of rangers fans in two categories, first are the ones who just support their team and who don't care about all the loyalist stuff, to me they are rangers fans. Secondly are the ones who are into the religious and loyalist stuff, they are huns. I have no time for huns and like to make it known.

WeeRussell
04-05-2018, 09:59 AM
Yes I would, but I tend to think of rangers fans in two categories, first are the ones who just support their team and who don't care about all the loyalist stuff, to me they are rangers fans. Secondly are the ones who are into the religious and loyalist stuff, they are huns. I have no time for huns and like to make it known.

And then there's the large group who would tell you they're not bothered about all that stuff but join in with all the songs and the sh*te as a bit of "banter" and "atmosphere" on match day... and other days.

I know the odd person who really doesn't like that element to Rangers, and the odd one who has essentially stopped following them because of it.... but the vast majority of Rangers fans (some who are otherwise decent guys) I meet are happy to get involved in it all... whether it's in line with their actual views and beliefs or not.

Tells you all you need to know about their club and fans for me.

Dinkydoo
04-05-2018, 10:31 AM
Would you actually call a Rangers supporting work colleague a Hun?

Common decency should mean that you don’t despite the argument of whether or not it’s a Sectarian term.

Whatever it is, you’d be saying it as an insult. If you’re pulled up for it you’ve only got yourself to blame.Not sure if this was aimed at me or not, but for the avoidance of doubt, definitely not.

Generally speaking, I might refer to their fans as huns depending on the context of the discussion and who's in the room. But that's danger territory we're getting into now, especially at work.

I got frustrated at the denial, head in the sand attitude and twisting of words to make it look like it was me that had the problem.

I know for future now that I'm just not having that kind of conversation again unless I'm fairly certain most parties involved are going into it with thier eyes open to the problems thier club has.

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cabbageandribs1875
04-05-2018, 11:16 AM
And then there's the large group who would tell you they're not bothered about all that stuff but join in with all the songs and the sh*te as a bit of "banter" and "atmosphere" on match day... and other days.

I know the odd person who really doesn't like that element to Rangers, and the odd one who has essentially stopped following them because of it.... but the vast majority of Rangers fans (some who are otherwise decent guys) I meet are happy to get involved in it all... whether it's in line with their actual views and beliefs or not.

Tells you all you need to know about their club and fans for me.



Ah..the 90-minute bigot :agree: when they walk through a turnstile at ibrox they become a bigot by default, unless of course they are one of the rather tiny(well, non existent really) minority that sit on their hands during the 90 mins without joining in with any singing, do sevco fans actually sing any songs that don't involve sectarianism ? even their club anthem has a line referencing going to Dublin(and Rome) :faf: is there any other football club in europe that has a song about visiting other european cities , how cosmopolitan of them :greengrin

Hibernian Verse
04-05-2018, 11:20 AM
Im 34 and don't know what it isI'm 26 and have heard it at plenty away games, but it is quickly drowned out by everyone around the ********s singing it. It's usually the wee neds that huddle in a group of 6 or 7 at away games and are usually wrecked by kick off.

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Keith_M
04-05-2018, 12:45 PM
And then there's the large group who would tell you they're not bothered about all that stuff but join in with all the songs and the sh*te as a bit of "banter" and "atmosphere" on match day... and other days.

I know the odd person who really doesn't like that element to Rangers, and the odd one who has essentially stopped following them because of it.... but the vast majority of Rangers fans (some who are otherwise decent guys) I meet are happy to get involved in it all... whether it's in line with their actual views and beliefs or not.

Tells you all you need to know about their club and fans for me.


If there was a Club that refused to sign black players for 80 years, was supported by members of the Ku Klux Klan, had Fan websites where they constantly referred to people as Nigg...., etc, and had up to half the support belting out songs about being up to their knees in in Negro blood;


Would you feel comfortable supporting that club, let alone attending their games?

Would you be able to justify it by saying, 'Ah, but I don't hold those beliefs, it's just a minority, I'm only there for the football'?

Would you be shocked that the Police, Football Authorities, Media and Other Clubs allowed them to continue without a word of criticism?


Nope, there's no such thing as an innocent Rangers Fan.