Alfie

[Hibbyradge]

It's another terrible human tragedy, but what does the Holy Ground think about the situation?

[speedy_gonzales]

Heartbreaking for the parents and family.
The medical professionals involved however seem fairly convinced that any further treatment would be inhumane.
Personally if it was me I'd be pursuing it as far as I could, same as the Evans's, but then for those not emotionally involved it would seem an end of life care package is the kindest way to go.

[Pretty Boy]

In these situations I don't think there is a right or wrong answer.

The Doctors are taking an evidence based approach and basing their decision on diagnostic tests, previous cases and so on. On the flip side if it was my child I'd probably be doing exactly what the parents in this case are doing and hoping for a miracle and wanting to give every chance that there might be one.

[Scouse Hibee]

The one thing that has annoyed me is the way the supporters protested outside Alder Hey abusing medical staff including nurses and generally acting like a bunch of erseholes.

As others have said in the same situation as the parents I think everyone would be carrying the same hope and looking for some kind of miracle for as long as possible. Cutting out the emotion would probably hear me saying, the wee fella will have no quality of life what so ever and keeping him comfortable and pain free allowing him to slip away would be the kindest thing. A truly horrible situation for any parent.

[calumhibee1]

The one thing that has annoyed me is the way the supporters protested outside Alder Hey abusing medical staff including nurses and generally acting like a bunch of erseholes.

As others have said in the same situation as the parents I think everyone would be carrying the same hope and looking for some kind of miracle for as long as possible. Cutting out the emotion would probably hear me saying, the wee fella will have no quality of life what so ever and keeping him comfortable and pain free allowing him to slip away would be the kindest thing. A truly horrible situation for any parent.

I agree with your last paragraph, but I did read something on Facebook where someone said similar and someone replied with a photo of their child and said “so going by your logic my brain damaged son would be better off dead” and I kind of did think at that point that every effort should be made to keep going and hope for a miracle.

I really couldn’t make my mind up either way and I think that’s cause there’s probably not a right or wrong way to deal with it.

[Ryan69]

The parents should get that air ambulance arranged...and simply walk out with their son.

What are the police really going todo about it.

They would probably applaude them if anything.


As its quiet apparent that this government.....simply dont give a **** about human life anymore.

Its only a matter of time before his little body gives up without the care the Italians want to provide him.

I really find this story quiet disturbing tobe honest.

[Beefster]

The doctors are doing what they think is best. The parents are doing what they think is best. Just because they think different things doesn't make either wrong. It's everyone else that is jumping on the bandwagon (even if it is at the parents' urging) for their own ends that are in the wrong.

This doctor pretty much sums up my thoughts - https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/alfie-evans-doctor-intensive-care-life-support-parents-nhs-a8321226.html

[RyeSloan]

The parents should get that air ambulance arranged...and simply walk out with their son.

What are the police really going todo about it.

They would probably applaude them if anything.


As its quiet apparent that this government.....simply dont give a **** about human life anymore.

Its only a matter of time before his little body gives up without the care the Italians want to provide him.

I really find this story quiet disturbing tobe honest.

About as disturbing as using the case to have a pop at the government! Talk about people using a tragic case like this to advance their own agendas.

As for the OP. I really feel for both parties and the link to the Indy piece sums it up well.

To harass and harangue the medics in this case is really really low...probably the same medics that have spent months and months and months trying their absolute best for the wee man. I don’t doubt for a second that their decision to stop treatment was a painful and agonising one for them to take.

As for the parents, well who wouldn’t try everything in their power to save their kid. And while I do wonder if some of their actions have been well advised I’m not gonna judge them that’s for sure, a horrible horrible position to be in.

[Marabou Stork]

It's a tough one. A part of me thinks that there should be no way that a parent is told that their child's life support machine must be turned off. I think everything should be explained clearly and the facts laid out on the table to the parents by the doctors, but the decision to turn off the machine should ultimately lie with the parents and not the courts. Doctors are not infallible and can make get things wrong, as has been shown by him living longer than expected when the machine was turned off yesterday. I have first hand experience of a good friend of mine being on life support due to kidney failure. The doctors advised his wife that it would probably be better for all involved if the life support was removed. She didn't, and over the last couple of years, he has made an almost complete recovery. If turning the machines off was mandated by the state, my pal would be dead right now.

However, in this instance, I would suggest it is crueler than kind to keep this poor child alive. He has no sense of sight, hearing, smell, taste or touch. His brain is effectively just water. The fact is, the best case scenario for the child is to go to Italy and die - what I would argue is a more undignified and uncomfortable death - hooked up to a ventilator for two weeks or so. The parents are understandably under a terrible amount of stress, and they have my utmost sympathy, but what is going on regarding blocking the hospital and the disturbance that is being caused to other families suffering an equally traumatic time is simply inexcusable and dilutes what should be overwhelming support for a family going through an awful time. It has all stemmed from the way the family and friends have chose to conduct themselves. It's offensive to suggest this kid has been left to die because the hospital can't afford to treat him though or have some agenda. His case has been hijacked by Christian pro-life groups who want to take him to Italy and let him breathe on a machine until he expires from pneumonia or whatever, because their faith dictates that. The parents in their grief and desperation have clung to the possibility that this gives him longer to spontaneously recover. For him to recover would mean growing a new brain. He's in every meaningful way dead, and he should have been palliated weeks ago. It's cruel to keep him going like this.

[Lester B]

The parents should get that air ambulance arranged...and simply walk out with their son.

What are the police really going todo about it.

They would probably applaude them if anything.


As its quiet apparent that this government.....simply dont give a **** about human life anymore.

Its only a matter of time before his little body gives up without the care the Italians want to provide him.

I really find this story quiet disturbing tobe honest.

That might well be the most ludicrous series of sentences I've read in a long time. It's an appallingly sad situation; conspiracy theories don't help understanding of it

[Ryan69]

That might well be the most ludicrous series of sentences I've read in a long time. It's an appallingly sad situation; conspiracy theories don't help understanding of it

And where exactly is the conspiracy?

[Lester B]

And where exactly is the conspiracy?

Explain your government comment above?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The parents should get that air ambulance arranged...and simply walk out with their son.

What are the police really going todo about it.

They would probably applaude them if anything.


As its quiet apparent that this government.....simply dont give a **** about human life anymore.

Its only a matter of time before his little body gives up without the care the Italians want to provide him.

I really find this story quiet disturbing tobe honest.

I really detest the ignorance of some people, generally, but when they use it to wade into some situation that is clearly beyond their wit because they read something of faceboom, i find it quite sick.

This decision is based on clinical and judicial opinion - it is nothing to do with the govt.

Your apalling ignorance is exactly why patients and campaign groups shold be ignored when it comes to heartbreaking, sensitive and nuanced situations like this.

[Lester B]

I really detest the ignorance of some people on this topic.

This decision is based on clinical and judicial opinion - it is nothing to do with the govt.

:top marks Precisely

[Scouse Hibee]

The parents should get that air ambulance arranged...and simply walk out with their son.

What are the police really going todo about it.

They would probably applaude them if anything.


As its quiet apparent that this government.....simply dont give a **** about human life anymore.

Its only a matter of time before his little body gives up without the care the Italians want to provide him.

I really find this story quiet disturbing tobe honest.

I'm not sure what you are on about, guess that makes two of us

[Colr]

Thry should let them take him to Italy. What’s the worst that could happen?

[Beefster]

Thry should let them take him to Italy. What’s the worst that could happen?

The kid has prolonged suffering needlessly.

[Pretty Boy]

I hate when issues as complex and heartbreaking as this are used as some kind of critique of public healthcare. Someone like Mike Huckabee trying to paint the NHS as a cold and calculating organisation playing God is ignorant and frankly disgusting. I'd argue the policy of some American hospitals of 'if you keep paying we'll keep treating' even when the treatment becomes potentially more harmful than the benefits is worse than the decision the Doctors have taken in this case. Watch Louis Therouxs Edge of Life for an example of what I mean.

There is no doubt Doctors can make mistakes but decisions aren't made rashly and the accusation this is some kind of power trip is very poor.

[lord bunberry]

I hate when issues as complex and heartbreaking as this are used as some kind of critique of public healthcare. Someone like Mike Huckabee trying to paint the NHS as a cold and calculating organisation playing God is ignorant and frankly disgusting. I'd argue the policy of some American hospitals of 'if you keep paying we'll keep treating' even when the treatment becomes potentially more harmful than the benefits is worse than the decision the Doctors have taken in this case. Watch Louis Therouxs Edge of Life for an example of what I mean.

There is no doubt Doctors can make mistakes but decisions aren't made rashly and the accusation this is some kind of power trip is very poor.
Well said. The doctors can look at a case with less emotion than the parents, but it’s not a decision they will take lightly. They will be upset about the case as well. I totally understand the views of the parents as well, we would all do exactly the same. Thankfully it’s not a situation many of us will ever have to face. Healthcare for children in this country is amongst the best in the world.

[MartinfaePorty]

The thing that gets me is the Pope, Italian government and others are going out their way to help a child that medical experts have said has a limited life expectancy, but is there any evidence they offer the same support for children who have much less publicity, but, perhaps, a much better chance of survival (I have a Polish ex-colleague on Facebook sharing a thread describing our doctors as 'executioners')? Their actions undermine the whole principle of the NHS, although their is nothing wrong with challenging medical opinion, up to a point. However, I, like everyone else on this thread, have complete sympathy for the parents. What they must be going through is awful.

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[lord bunberry]

The thing that gets me is the Pope, Italian government and others are going out their way to help a child that medical experts have said has a limited life expectancy, but is there any evidence they offer the same support for children who have much less publicity, but, perhaps, a much better chance of survival (I have a Polish ex-colleague on Facebook sharing a thread describing our doctors as 'executioners')? Their actions undermine the whole principle of the NHS, although their is nothing wrong with challenging medical opinion, up to a point. However, I, like everyone else on this thread, have complete sympathy for the parents. What they must be going through is awful.

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When religion is brought into these debates it muddies the waters. It’s horrible when people with a vested interest try and latch onto a tragic situation.

[Hibrandenburg]

As a parent I would explore every avenue available to save or keep my kid alive as long as possible. I couldn't live with myself otherwise afterwards. As a doctor I would be compelled to relieve suffering and do my best to help heal the patient. This is the Hippocratic Oath not word for word but the essence of it.

Bearing in mind both parties should have the well being and life of Alfie at the centre of their decision making, I fail to see how why further life support won't be provided or at least the Italian alternative explored.

[heretoday]

Thry should let them take him to Italy. What’s the worst that could happen?

I'm not clear on that. Alfie is an Italian citizen I gather.

Maybe the NHS won't pay for it. But there seem to be several interested organisations who would surely?

The answer must lie in the law.

[Scouse Hibee]

I see "Alfie's Army" were abusing medical staff again, massive Police presence required last night at Alder Hey. Also heard the father in his latest interview blaming Alder Hey for misdiagnosis.The whole sorry episode is turning very nasty.

[heretoday]

I see "Alfie's Army" were abusing medical staff again, massive Police presence required last night at Alder Hey. Also heard the father in his latest interview blaming Alder Hey for misdiagnosis.The whole sorry episode is turning very nasty.

There's a lot of folk with their own agendas riffing on this.

[Pretty Boy]

I see "Alfie's Army" were abusing medical staff again, massive Police presence required last night at Alder Hey. Also heard the father in his latest interview blaming Alder Hey for misdiagnosis.The whole sorry episode is turning very nasty.

I just don't get it.

Consultants will have to make decisions based on available evidence and probability rather than emotion so I suppose there will be an element of 'detachment' required. However the abuse also seems to be being aimed at other staff. Do these people really think the nurses who have bathed, changed and cared for that little boy for months aren't upset by his situation as well? My sister is working at the Sick Kids at the moment and whilst she remains professional whilst on duty I know she gets quite upset about some of the cases she sees when she goes home; NHS staff are human as well.

I usually hate the phrase 'virtue signalling' but in this instance I think it might be appropriate. People changing their profile pictures on Facebook to read 'Alfie's Army' and ranting away about something they know nothing about is just fishing for compliment son how caring they are. The whole thing just seems to have been swept up in this modern obsession with painting every scenario as black or white when there is a huge grey area. Doctors = bad, parents = good or vice versa is just ridiculously simplistic.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I just don't get it.

Consultants will have to make decisions based on available evidence and probability rather than emotion so I suppose there will be an element of 'detachment' required. However the abuse also seems to be being aimed at other staff. Do these people really think the nurses who have bathed, changed and cared for that little boy for months aren't upset by his situation as well? My sister is working at the Sick Kids at the moment and whilst she remains professional whilst on duty I know she gets quite upset about some of the cases she sees when she goes home; NHS staff are human as well.

I usually hate the phrase 'virtue signalling' but in this instance I think it might be appropriate. People changing their profile pictures on Facebook to read 'Alfie's Army' and ranting away about something they know nothing about is just fishing for compliment son how caring they are. The whole thing just seems to have been swept up in this modern obsession with painting every scenario as black or white when there is a huge grey area. Doctors = bad, parents = good or vice versa is just ridiculously simplistic.

Its shocking, and exactly the kind of unthinking herd mentality that is making the social media generation so easy to manipulate.

These folk are absolute cretins.

[calumhibee1]

I just don't get it.

Consultants will have to make decisions based on available evidence and probability rather than emotion so I suppose there will be an element of 'detachment' required. However the abuse also seems to be being aimed at other staff. Do these people really think the nurses who have bathed, changed and cared for that little boy for months aren't upset by his situation as well? My sister is working at the Sick Kids at the moment and whilst she remains professional whilst on duty I know she gets quite upset about some of the cases she sees when she goes home; NHS staff are human as well.

I usually hate the phrase 'virtue signalling' but in this instance I think it might be appropriate. People changing their profile pictures on Facebook to read 'Alfie's Army' and ranting away about something they know nothing about is just fishing for compliment son how caring they are. The whole thing just seems to have been swept up in this modern obsession with painting every scenario as black or white when there is a huge grey area. Doctors = bad, parents = good or vice versa is just ridiculously simplistic.

Agree with this 100%.

[Bishop Hibee]

An extremely sad situation. There's a great article from the editor of the Catholic Herald here http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/issues/april-27th-2018/alfie-evans-the-courts-and-the-church/ Even the Catholic hierarchy disagree on this case showing how complex it is

Personally, I can't understand why the parents weren't allowed to take Alfie to Italy. I see Tom Evans has decided to try to build bridges with the hospital and will make no more statements. Quite dignified for such a young man under stress. I imagine he'll want his families final time with Alfie to be less fraught than it would be if conducted in the glare of the public.

[Sir David Gray]

It's such a tragic situation and I wouldn't wish this on anyone.

To be faced with attending the funeral of your own child who is just a toddler, because of a terminal illness, must be utterly heartbreaking and of course you are going to do everything to try and save your own flesh and blood.

What I really don't like are the reports of the people storming Alder Hey hospital and threatening the doctors and nurses. Regardless of how well intentioned these people are, their actions really don't help anyone. I was also upset to hear about the boy's father taking out a private prosecution against the medical staff for conspiracy to murder. Regardless of the circumstances, that really can't be condoned.

Ultimately the medical experts are there to look at the case subjectively without getting too emotionally involved. They are there to do the best thing for the patient.

I heard an interview on the radio the other morning from a woman who was faced with a similar situation with her child who was seriously ill. She eventually asked herself whether she was fighting to keep him alive for her son's sake or was it for own sake?

She eventually came to the conclusion that was doing for herself.

Again, I would never criticise someone for feeling that way, I think it's a very natural way to look at this type of situation but that's why we have doctors, nurses and other professionals to make these decisions without any emotion clouding their judgement.

My heart goes out to the wee boy and his family though, it is deperately sad.

[Hibbyradge]

My speech today on Alfie´s Law.

Seven weeks ago I received a message from a father desperately seeking which started my role as Alfie Evan´s only political representative. He was at his wits end. Not one politician, doctor or person in power or authority would listen to or help him.

What sort of country are we that a 21 year wanting the best for his child was spurned and ignored by the country he lived in? His courage, Alfie’s mother courage, the determination of his family and supporters have led to this campaign for justice and equality before the law, something most of us would expect to be the norm. It is not. Little Alfie was born healthy but after a few months he became unwell. He been on ITU on a ventilator at Alder Hey for almost all his life and diagnosed with a neurodegenerative disorder without a firm diagnosis. The Trust´s doctors concluded that further treatment was futile and not in Alfie´s best interest. They decided that Alfie must die by having his treatment withdrawn and sought to bully his parents into agreeing. His parents disagreed.

Tom told me on the phone that Alfie had improved. He recognised sounds and speech and by reducing certain medication other visible improvements had occured. When I visited this lovely boy I could see what Tom had explained. Furthermore, his parents had obtained offers of assistance from Doctor’s and renowned international hospitals abroad to take care of Alfie, to treat him and see if they could help.

And here is where the might of unlimited funds to lawyers and medical experts was unleashed on two working class parents from Liverpool, barely into their 20s. The hospital refused Toms pleas. They said he was wrong and they were right. They went to the High Court where this courageous 21 year defend the right to treat his son against the might of the hospitals lawyers, solicitors leading Queen Counsel and court system. The State appointed their representative for Alfie and the parents had no one. No one is surprised that the system won and condemned Alfie to certain death for that is what withdrawal of treatment is.
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But Alfies case is not isolated. It follows a pattern where the NHS and the Court, both arms of the state, proceed as a juggernaut to crush dissent and to refuse be open their minds let alone their hearts to new evidence. It is regularly happening across the UK.

Vincent Lambert, Charlie Gard, Eluana Englaro, Charlotte Wyatt and of course Ayesha King are just a few cases where the state has ordered termination of life. In the cases of Charlie Gard and Ayesha King offers of help from hospitals from the United States and Czech Republic and the world were fought against by the hospitals and denied by the courts.

The same argument is put forward that the state does not believe it is in the best interests of the child to allow them to go. Their illnesses are so severe the child will die and no hospital could save them. Their is an institutional arrogance that the U.K. is the self proclaimed status of all knowledge and care. They can do no wrong.

But they can make mistakes. Hospitals are not omnipotent. Charlotte Wyatt lived. Ayesha King lives. But not before the state came together to hunt Aysha Kings father down issuing a European Arrest Warrant as though he were a dangerous terrorist not a father wanted to keep his child alive. Aysha is now in remission from cancer following specialist therapy in the Czech Republic. His actions were right but not before the terror and suffering he had to go through first.
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What of Alfie? In February the courts were told once life support was removed he would die in a few minutes or short time. But he hasn’t. This brave brave boy has been breathing on his own for nearly 3 days. As in Aysha King and Charlotte Wyatt Could the hospital and court be wrong?

The international community is shocked and astonished at the apparent heartless intransigence and stubbornness of the state in refusing all offers of help to Alfie’s family. Last week a team of Doctor’s from Poland flew to Liverpool in an air ambulance which waited at Speke airport. Equipment ambulances and staff were available to transport Alfie to the world recognised Bambino Basu Hospital in Rome. other offers in Italy and German exist. The doctors were refused and held in a room whilst the hospital sought injunctions prevent them from helping.

The Polish Prime Minister, Italian Prime Minister, the Pope, politicians across the globe have begged the hospital to reconsider. The Italian government gave Alfie citizenship and sent Ambassodorial assistance to the courts. The legal establishment doubled down and criticised their interference and called a legal assistance a fanatic. Yet Italian Head of healthcare Walter Ricciardi said “the way my English colleagues often deal with situations like this is in humane”
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Threats of legal action, defamation and potential contempt of court have been issued as warnings to those supporting the family. Those in Alfie’s army or supporting at the hospital have been called a mob. The police have been on guard. It is then outrageous that Jeremy Hunt and Alder Hey have complained about protests outside the hospital. To say calm down dears when we know that decent working people in Liverpool only shout when no one listens to them speak.

Despite multiple appeals through the courts Alfie´s parents have relied on the thin gruel of legal aid where it is clear they need a fair defence. Alfie’s family fight on.

And That is why I am calling for Alfie´s Law. Alfie´s law requires the parents defending their child´s life before the state as equality of arms, namely a fully funded legal team with access to medical and legal expertise, as the NHS now enjoys without any scrutiny. This independent advocate must not be appointed by Court or the NHS but must be provided at the earliest opportunity, when a hospital is first applying to court. To ask many judges to simply roll back their opinion after a long fight seems to be too much to ask.

I have written twice to Jeremy Hunt and Theresa May, the health and head of our elected government in a democracy. Alfie was not deemed worthy of a response.

Any patient is entitled to a second opinion and there should be no obstruction to it. If a court seriously doubts Alfie´s parents lack his best interests on the grounds they are not medical specialists that is a tyranny of experts that every parent must now dread. To doubt so without any proof of ill intent is monstrous and sets out a government policy to nationalise our children. To decide specifically that a child is not allowed to be treated by another qualified and willing provider is to subject that child to non voluntary euthansia with withdrawal of treatment. It is shocking to see how far parents and family rights have been marginalised in the U.K. and criticised by the rest of the world. It is chilling to see how far the states powers to control our children have come and the power they will use to retain it. No one has a monopoly of truth nor the capacity for miracles. Doctors and judges must not confuse themselves with the one above and must not play God.

Today Alfie still has a chance. The world is watching and cannot understand the lack of humanity in holding Alfie in hospital against his will.

FOR THE SAKE OF HUMANITY LET HIM GO!

[Hibbyradge]

Regards above, it was written by his MP, I think, but I can't find the post again to give you his name.

I posted it to inform the debate rather than make a point.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Regards above, it was written by his MP, I think, but I can't find the post again to give you his name.

I posted it to inform the debate rather than make a point.

Some of the language is ridiculously inflammatory, but there are some interesting points there too.

[Betty Boop]

Alfie died in the early hours of this morning. RIP wee one. My thoughts are with his parents can't imagine how they must be feeling.

[lord bunberry]

Alfie died in the early hours of this morning. RIP wee one. My thoughts are with his parents can't imagine how they must be feeling.
Just saw this on the news. RIP Alfie.

[Pretty Boy]

Very sad news.

My thoughts and prayers are with his family and those that cared for him.

[One Day]

Alfie died in the early hours of this morning. RIP wee one. My thoughts are with his parents can't imagine how they must be feeling.

Very sad, R.I.P.

[Hibbyradge]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/28/call-from-god-american-pro-lifers-role-in-alfie-evans-battle

[Steve-O]

Some of the language is ridiculously inflammatory, but there are some interesting points there too.

If an MP thinks what they say will be popular, they’ll say it. So, it’s no more credible to me because an MP said it, albeit more eloquently than the Facebook mob.