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View Full Version : Scottish Premiership split - for or against



Diclonius
09-04-2018, 10:22 AM
Now that we're back in the division, let's once again find out just how universally (un)popular this is with Hibs fans.

My opinion is the same as it has been for years - bin it and extend the division so we either get 2 games per team or have an earlier split in a 14-16 team league after two games. The whole thing is a shambles.

Oscar T Grouch
09-04-2018, 10:34 AM
I think this sort of league needs the split, this season there are gonna be some great battles for the Euro places and the bottom 4 will be fighting relegation, essentially there are only 3 teams not fighting for something, St Johnstone, Motherwell and hertz. Every other team has something to play for. It is a hard system to get perfect but I believe it offers more opportunities for more teams than a straight league of 12. We maybe the ones effected most by the post split fixtures, but that is down to how the league worked this season, Killie being the surprise package and us to an extent, making the top 6. It is not perfect but I think it is better than just a plain run in without a split.

Edit: I agree that a bigger league with fewer fixture would be better for Scottish football in general but this won't happen because it would mean current members diluting their income.

danhibees1875
09-04-2018, 10:36 AM
I voted for it, before realising the actual question wasn't quite the same as the thread title.

I like the idea of slightly tweaking it to a 14 team league with a split after 2 rounds into a 6 and 8, then 2 more rounds.

Although, after a couple of years it would just be another "nonsense SFA idea" and "only Scotland would be stupid enough" to have some teams play 36 games while others play 40.

Diclonius
09-04-2018, 10:39 AM
I voted for it, before realising the actual question wasn't quite the same as the thread title.

I like the idea of slightly tweaking it to a 14 team league with a split after 2 rounds into a 6 and 8, then 2 more rounds.

Although, after a couple of years it would just be another "nonsense SFA idea" and "only Scotland would be stupid enough" to have some teams play 36 games while others play 40.

A 7-7 split would be fine. It just means one team would get a break every week.

Michael
09-04-2018, 10:47 AM
A 7-7 split would be fine. It just means one team would get a break every week.

That makes it not fine IMO. Someone would be sitting out on the final day.

Sauzee16
09-04-2018, 10:49 AM
For it’s a good thing.

JeMeSouviens
09-04-2018, 10:55 AM
I'm not against a split if it was after 2 rounds of fixtures, so probably 14 teams. But it's fundamental in any league that all the teams competing against each other should have the same set of fixtures.

Hibbyradge
09-04-2018, 10:56 AM
I'd like us to try a 14 team league, either with a 6/8 or 7/7 split. Neither are perfect, but the alternatives aren't great either.

The idea of an 18 or 20 team league is initially attractive, but it wouldn't be feasible financially.

I hear the argument that a bigger league would give us a more realistic chance of winning the league and crowds would soar if we were competing at that level, and that may have some merit.

However, we've been relegated as often as we've won the league so what would happen to our finances in ordinary or poor seasons?

Also, how could clubs without a big fan base be expected to survive, never mind perform and compete at Premiership level?

And the prize money would need to be be stretched out.

What about parachute payments etc etc.

Juniper Greens
09-04-2018, 11:00 AM
I was against it (and for a larger league). But having been in the Championship so long...there just aren't enough big clubs to support a bigger league with promotion and relegation, in my opinion.

Can you imagine an SPL with more than just Hamilton and Ross County in it? In reality, with a 16 team league the chances multiple Dumbartons or Alloas coming up would be just too high in my opinion.

easty
09-04-2018, 11:01 AM
I'd like us to try a 14 team league, either with a 6/8 or 7/7 split. Neither are perfect, but the alternatives aren't great either.

The idea of an 18 or 20 team league is initially attractive, but it wouldn't be feasible financially.

I hear the argument that a bigger league would give us a more realistic chance of winning the league and crowds would soar if we were competing at that level, and that may have some merit.

However, we've been relegated as often as we've won the league so what would happen to our finances in ordinary or poor seasons?

Also, how could clubs without a big fan base be expected to survive, never mind perform and compete at Premiership level?

I don't think a 6/8 or a 7/7 split would work. I think they'd be even more embarrassing than the crap split we put up with now.

A 6/8 split means some teams play more games than others in a season, and a 7/7 would see a "spare" team left out each week. Neither is workable.

Hibbyradge
09-04-2018, 11:08 AM
I don't think a 6/8 or a 7/7 split would work. I think they'd be even more embarrassing than the crap split we put up with now.

A 6/8 split means some teams play more games than others in a season, and a 7/7 would see a "spare" team left out each week. Neither is workable.

They're workable, although not perfect

It could be arranged that the team in 7th place sits out on the last day, the team in 6th on the 2nd last day, 5th on the 3rd last etc etc.

That would remove the possibility of a team competing for the title having an advantage.

It won't happen though. The current set up has been pretty successful overall.

cleanyman
09-04-2018, 11:16 AM
I like the split but this season has been a farce. They would have known last June that this could happen

Useless

Thecat23
09-04-2018, 11:22 AM
If we finished bottom six I doubt any would be in favour of it. If safe from relegation then season is over. 14 team league no split for me. That way you could be 7th but still get money from playing say Celtic in the final 5 games.

Sometimes keeping things simple is the best way to move forward.

Hibbyradge
09-04-2018, 11:35 AM
If we finished bottom six I doubt any would be in favour of it. If safe from relegation then season is over. 14 team league no split for me. That way you could be 7th but still get money from playing say Celtic in the final 5 games.

Sometimes keeping things simple is the best way to move forward.

3 rounds of 13?

The_Exile
09-04-2018, 11:43 AM
I'd rather go back to a 10 team league with 4 games against each other, There's only really around 8 or 9 good teams anyway with a decent enough fan base. 16 team league would mean less money for all and would mean games against Alloa, Dumbarton, Cowdenbeath, Brechin etc rather than extra games against Aberdeen, Celtic, Rangers, Hearts.

Gatecrasher
09-04-2018, 11:45 AM
No. I'm not against a split in the league but it needs to be done fairly and that just isn't happening.

My_Wife_Camille
09-04-2018, 11:46 AM
I like it but it’s not perfect. Scottish football get pelters from all angles, especially from within our own country, for being backwards and stuck in the dark ages etc but then when we come up with a league format that’s different to the norm then it’s a lot of pish and everyone just wants to go back to the old fashioned way.

I think in theory it’s a good thing. It keeps some level of excitement up for almost every team going into the closing stages of the season. Going into the last few games before the split you had Hearts, St Johnstone and Motherwell all realistically challenging for a top 6 place, giving them something to play for despite being stranded in mid table. Granted, those teams don’t have much to look forward to now but without the split they’d be in the exact same position with 10 games to go instead of just 5. This meant that with only a hand full of games left you still had every team in the league fighting for something. In a bigger league with no split you end up with dead rubber games in February and March instead of just a couple on April and May.

The imbalance with the fixtures is an obvious downside to it though and should really be looked at.

jgl07
09-04-2018, 11:51 AM
I don't think a 6/8 or a 7/7 split would work. I think they'd be even more embarrassing than the crap split we put up with now.

A 6/8 split means some teams play more games than others in a season, and a 7/7 would see a "spare" team left out each week. Neither is workable.
The 'more games' doesn't make much sense. Those in playoff positions have to play more matches than those that are not. At the moment it appears that Hibs will get only 18 home games and 20 away

My solution is a 14 Team League with a 6/8 split.

That would give 26 League games pre-split and either 14 or 10 post-split. That would give 40 matches for the bottom eight and 36 for the top six.

The bottom two would go down automatically and the playoff would be restricted to Championship teams.

The top six could have a Europa League Playoff built-in for the two places left after Cup Winners automatic place and the CL place for the League winner.

Just Alf
09-04-2018, 12:25 PM
I'd like to see the league upped to, probably, 16 and as is being considered in rugby no longer have promotion / demotion....

As far as the split is concerned some times I'm all for it and at other times I don't like it at all :-/


Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Curried
09-04-2018, 12:50 PM
I voted no.

This league has suffered a death of a thousand cuts over the last 30/40 years due to the Glasgow duopoly. The sooner we stand up for all Scottish football teams (not simply those with a rampant love for england or ireland) and back a larger league (i.e two games a season home and way) the better.

easty
09-04-2018, 01:28 PM
The 'more games' doesn't make much sense. Those in playoff positions have to play more matches than those that are not. At the moment it appears that Hibs will get only 18 home games and 20 away

My solution is a 14 Team League with a 6/8 split.

That would give 26 League games pre-split and either 14 or 10 post-split. That would give 40 matches for the bottom eight and 36 for the top six.

The bottom two would go down automatically and the playoff would be restricted to Championship teams.

The top six could have a Europa League Playoff built-in for the two places left after Cup Winners automatic place and the CL place for the League winner.

A play off game is not a league game, it's a play off game. All teams should play the same amount of league games. Obviously.

GreenCastle
09-04-2018, 02:10 PM
We made it this season but I’m still against it.

I still think a larger league playing each other x2 a season Home and Away would add more interest.

I still think far too many teams in all the Scottish Leagues.

They should help clubs develop infrastructure further with stadium / fan experience and clubs linking with the community.

I would still have an open tier / pyramid system so ambitious clubs can move up. That was introduced far too late but shows that teams like Edinburgh City should be given a chance.

But you have a few issues..

Old Firm
TV
Blazers running the game in this country

Thecat23
09-04-2018, 02:20 PM
3 rounds of 13?

It’s been a long day HR 😁

Vini1875
09-04-2018, 02:28 PM
From a football point of view 16 teams playing each other twice over a season, allows cups to be exciting still and breaks for weather internationals etc, with the possibility of someone else winning the league. From a business stand point it is as you were. Most seasons there are the majority of teams with something to play for so it works.


Some of the suggestions of splits of 7/7 and 6/8 are a total non sense.

marinello59
09-04-2018, 02:44 PM
I like it but it’s not perfect. Scottish football get pelters from all angles, especially from within our own country, for being backwards and stuck in the dark ages etc but then when we come up with a league format that’s different to the norm then it’s a lot of pish and everyone just wants to go back to the old fashioned way.

I think in theory it’s a good thing. It keeps some level of excitement up for almost every team going into the closing stages of the season. Going into the last few games before the split you had Hearts, St Johnstone and Motherwell all realistically challenging for a top 6 place, giving them something to play for despite being stranded in mid table. Granted, those teams don’t have much to look forward to now but without the split they’d be in the exact same position with 10 games to go instead of just 5. This meant that with only a hand full of games left you still had every team in the league fighting for something. In a bigger league with no split you end up with dead rubber games in February and March instead of just a couple on April and May.

The imbalance with the fixtures is an obvious downside to it though and should really be looked at.

Well said.

heretoday
09-04-2018, 03:06 PM
The split's all about the bigger clubs getting more money, isn't it?

Hibbyradge
09-04-2018, 03:27 PM
The split's all about the bigger clubs getting more money, isn't it?

It's about all the teams in the top league getting the maximum available.

Hibbyradge
09-04-2018, 03:28 PM
From a football point of view 16 teams playing each other twice over a season, allows cups to be exciting still and breaks for weather internationals etc, with the possibility of someone else winning the league. From a business stand point it is as you were. Most seasons there are the majority of teams with something to play for so it works.


Some of the suggestions of splits of 7/7 and 6/8 are a total non sense.

The Danish League has a 6/8 split.

As does Bulgaria.

Hibbyradge
09-04-2018, 03:32 PM
Finland has 12 teams.

They play each other 3 times.

MyJo
09-04-2018, 04:16 PM
Bit of a radical formula but:

12 team premiership
12 team championship

22 game league seasons with every team playing each other 1 home and 1 away game followed by playoff leagues.

Top 8 in premiership
Bottom 4 from premiership & top 4 from Championship
Bottom 8 from Championship

Points go back to zero or an amount of points are awarded based on final league position during round 1. Second round of 14 games played to determine European places in premiership playoff league & promotion/relegation in the others.

Make everything below this regionalised between highland (north/west) and lowland (South/east) in a full pyramid structure.

Keeps the 12 team premiership & the 36 game season and, assuming Celtic and Rangers finish in the top 8, keeps the 4 old firm games a year for TV deals.

Gets rid of the awkwardness of the split just now when it comes to having even numbers of home and away games etc and gives Scottish football its own identity away from trying to copy what English football is doing with far less resources.

wookie70
09-04-2018, 05:06 PM
I like it as it is but would like someone else to administer it. There wouldn't be an issue this year if someone less bias had worked out The Rangers post split fixtures. It was ridiculous having them at home twice to Celtc and Aberdeen post split and nearly as bad including Us and the Jambos. It was an accident waiting to happen or more likely pre-determined.

jgl07
09-04-2018, 05:31 PM
I like it as it is but would like someone else to administer it. There wouldn't be an issue this year if someone less bias had worked out The Rangers post split fixtures. It was ridiculous having them at home twice to Celtc and Aberdeen post split and nearly as bad including Us and the Jambos. It was an accident waiting to happen or more likely pre-determined.

I have never liked the split but this year they have really messed things up.

In the early years I think that every team had three home matches against the OF. This year Hibs and Hearts have only had two. That was a disaster waiting to happen.

This season Hibs were not seeded to finish in the top six. It was patently obvious that they would from anyone who studied Cup form or noticed that Hearts and Sevco both breezed the top six after winning promotion. Maybe they should use the bookies odds to determine seeding?

The SPFL showed themselves up as real amateurs. You got the impression that in the early days there were genuine attempts to get a post split balance but this bunch of clowns seem to be blundering from one disaster to another.

J-C
09-04-2018, 05:50 PM
I'm against it as it can give an unfair advantage to the OF, having to play a main rival an odd number of times and particularly at their home with a hostile crowd isn't right.

Eyrie
09-04-2018, 09:50 PM
Bit of a radical formula but:

12 team premiership
12 team championship

22 game league seasons with every team playing each other 1 home and 1 away game followed by playoff leagues.

Top 8 in premiership
Bottom 4 from premiership & top 4 from Championship
Bottom 8 from Championship

Points go back to zero or an amount of points are awarded based on final league position during round 1. Second round of 14 games played to determine European places in premiership playoff league & promotion/relegation in the others.

Make everything below this regionalised between highland (north/west) and lowland (South/east) in a full pyramid structure.

Keeps the 12 team premiership & the 36 game season and, assuming Celtic and Rangers finish in the top 8, keeps the 4 old firm games a year for TV deals.

Gets rid of the awkwardness of the split just now when it comes to having even numbers of home and away games etc and gives Scottish football its own identity away from trying to copy what English football is doing with far less resources.

Nothing radical about it.

I remember discussing a very similar idea in the 90s with friends and have been in favour ever since. Sadly the proposal was rejected a couple of years ago for no sensible reason.

ChicagoHibee
09-04-2018, 09:56 PM
I recommend going to an NBA-type schedule and play everyone 8 times.

hibby6270
09-04-2018, 10:20 PM
In the “Post Split Fixtures” thread, there was a link to an article that analysed the way the split had worked out over the seasons it’s been in force.
It basically said that at the start of the season, teams are ‘seeded’ based on their final position the previous season. Fixtures for the current season are then allocated for the 33 games on the assumption it will be the same 6 teams who will be Top 6 & Bottom 6 prior to the split taking place. This would mean that everyone gets 19 home / 19 away games.
In the 17 years it’s been in operation, not once, never, has it worked out that way. There’s always a Top 6 interloper that was not “expected”. Due to us being the promoted side this season, that interloper is us. How dare we upset the SPFL’s best laid plans!!
For me this proves that fundamentally the split idea IS flawed and has for some time now been needing a full review, if not scrapped altogether.
The $64,000 question though is what is the alternative that would benefit the whole of Scottish football?
Answers on a postcard addressed to Mr Doncaster, c/o Hampden Park, Glasgow.

superfurryhibby
10-04-2018, 08:15 AM
In principle I would like to see an expanded league. In reality it will never happen due to the loss of revenue from losing the additional fixtures v the teams from the Weedge and, to a lesser extent, us and them. I do find it a bit odd that a few folk have cited the possibility of Alloa, Dumbarton and Brechin being promoted as a deterrent though. In the olden times Dumbarton were sometimes in the top division, to my knowledge Alloa and Brechin never were. Those days the game was less professional and less organised. Too many well sorted outfits these days, so total minnows would be very unlikely to make it up.

What is farcical is the fixture situation that we are facing. Fair play says that it should be as even handed as possible. Playing a team away from home three times isn't right.

hibbyfraelibby
10-04-2018, 12:08 PM
Many mocked the 12/12 to 8/8/8 split proposal mainly because they were too hard of thinking and dismissed it out of hand.

Two FT pro divisions of 12 teams play each other twice. After 22 games the top 8 qualify for the premiership and play off against each other from scratch. No points carry over.14 games. 36 instead of 38 games. More slack in the schedule to accommodate UEFA and the weather.

Bottom 4 plus top 4 of 2nd tier play against each other with top 4 finishers qualifying to play in top tier next season.

Bottom 8 plus 8 top teams from the pyramid below the Pro League split into two sections of 8 with top 3 from each qualifying for second tier following season. Joined by 2 additional teams from 4th v 5th play offs.

danhibees1875
10-04-2018, 12:17 PM
Many mocked the 12/12 to 8/8/8 split proposal mainly because they were too hard of thinking and dismissed it out of hand.

Two FT pro divisions of 12 teams play each other twice. After 22 games the top 8 qualify for the premiership and play off against each other from scratch. No points carry over.14 games. 36 instead of 38 games. More slack in the schedule to accommodate UEFA and the weather.

Bottom 4 plus top 4 of 2nd tier play against each other with top 4 finishers qualifying to play in top tier next season.

Bottom 8 plus 8 top teams from the pyramid below the Pro League split into two sections of 8 with top 3 from each qualifying for second tier following season. Joined by 2 additional teams from 4th v 5th play offs.

I don't like the part where they play off from scratch. I can see why you would need to do that for the middle 8 though.

Otherwise, I quite like 12/12 to 8/8/8 as a concept. Maybe even regionalise the pyramid below the pro leagues too if feasible.

McSwanky
10-04-2018, 12:30 PM
Bit of a radical formula but:

12 team premiership
12 team championship

22 game league seasons with every team playing each other 1 home and 1 away game followed by playoff leagues.

Top 8 in premiership
Bottom 4 from premiership & top 4 from Championship
Bottom 8 from Championship

Points go back to zero or an amount of points are awarded based on final league position during round 1. Second round of 14 games played to determine European places in premiership playoff league & promotion/relegation in the others.

Make everything below this regionalised between highland (north/west) and lowland (South/east) in a full pyramid structure.

Keeps the 12 team premiership & the 36 game season and, assuming Celtic and Rangers finish in the top 8, keeps the 4 old firm games a year for TV deals.

Gets rid of the awkwardness of the split just now when it comes to having even numbers of home and away games etc and gives Scottish football its own identity away from trying to copy what English football is doing with far less resources.

Despite this idea seeming a bit leftfield, variations of it have been discussed before, and I think something along these lines seems like the most sensible option for Scotland.

The bit in bold is my ultimate bugbear about how Doncaster etc have set things up recently. We are not England, we are not comparable to England, so let's do things the right way for Scotland instead of trying in some way to emulate or even compete with them.

MyJo
10-04-2018, 01:29 PM
I don't like the part where they play off from scratch. I can see why you would need to do that for the middle 8 though.

Otherwise, I quite like 12/12 to 8/8/8 as a concept. Maybe even regionalise the pyramid below the pro leagues too if feasible.

it could work with a certain amount of points are awarded for where you finished in the first round.

1st place starts the playoffs with 12 points, 2nd starts with 11, 3rd with 10 and so on.

In the middle league this would mean the top 4 championship teams starting with 12, 11, 10 & 9 points while the bottom 4 premiership teams start with 4, 3, 2 & 1 points. Would help to bridge the gap between the resources of the respective teams and enhance the chances of the top championship teams gaining promotion against stronger sides with larger budgets.

O'Rourke3
10-04-2018, 02:05 PM
Voted no but like the split. Just not in the form it currenty done. When you cannot know what your final fixtures are and also whether or not you'll get an even number of home and away games then it's clearly wrong. It'ss been exciting - too exciting in our case - but it does add drama at the seasons's end. All the clubs were bought off in the 70s with Celtic and Rangers keeping the home gates and adding two more away games per season to make up. Until we get a better formula for distribution of funding we are screwed and will occassionally get 18 homes and 20 aways...

hibbyfraelibby
10-04-2018, 02:08 PM
it could work with a certain amount of points are awarded for where you finished in the first round.

1st place starts the playoffs with 12 points, 2nd starts with 11, 3rd with 10 and so on.

In the middle league this would mean the top 4 championship teams starting with 12, 11, 10 & 9 points while the bottom 4 premiership teams start with 4, 3, 2 & 1 points. Would help to bridge the gap between the resources of the respective teams and enhance the chances of the top championship teams gaining promotion against stronger sides with larger budgets.

I like that handicap idea. Would make for a very competetive series of games but the clubs would never accept it.

Onion
10-04-2018, 02:18 PM
In the “Post Split Fixtures” thread, there was a link to an article that analysed the way the split had worked out over the seasons it’s been in force.
It basically said that at the start of the season, teams are ‘seeded’ based on their final position the previous season. Fixtures for the current season are then allocated for the 33 games on the assumption it will be the same 6 teams who will be Top 6 & Bottom 6 prior to the split taking place. This would mean that everyone gets 19 home / 19 away games.
In the 17 years it’s been in operation, not once, never, has it worked out that way. There’s always a Top 6 interloper that was not “expected”. Due to us being the promoted side this season, that interloper is us. How dare we upset the SPFL’s best laid plans!!
For me this proves that fundamentally the split idea IS flawed and has for some time now been needing a full review, if not scrapped altogether.
The $64,000 question though is what is the alternative that would benefit the whole of Scottish football?
Answers on a postcard addressed to Mr Doncaster, c/o Hampden Park, Glasgow.

Interesting. As a minimum the so called lower seeded clubs should be forced to disclose unexpected out-performance as a risk when they are selling season tickets !

Eyrie
10-04-2018, 09:15 PM
it could work with a certain amount of points are awarded for where you finished in the first round.

1st place starts the playoffs with 12 points, 2nd starts with 11, 3rd with 10 and so on.

In the middle league this would mean the top 4 championship teams starting with 12, 11, 10 & 9 points while the bottom 4 premiership teams start with 4, 3, 2 & 1 points. Would help to bridge the gap between the resources of the respective teams and enhance the chances of the top championship teams gaining promotion against stronger sides with larger budgets.

I like your concept because it rewards a good league placing in the first half of the season,

However you're giving too big an advantage to the teams from the lower twelve when looking at the middle eight. I'd give the top team 4 points, then 3, then 2 and 1 for the fourth placed team as that matches the points on offer to the four clubs from the upper twelve. Overall it would achieve a more fluid promotion/relegation situation which in effect creates a larger league without the problems of either fixture congestion or too many meaningless games.

Crazyhorse
11-04-2018, 09:48 AM
Now that we're back in the division, let's once again find out just how universally (un)popular this is with Hibs fans.

My opinion is the same as it has been for years - bin it and extend the division so we either get 2 games per team or have an earlier split in a 14-16 team league after two games. The whole thing is a shambles.

So after a couple of days of this bull **** anyone still think the Scottish version of the split is a good idea?

Leith's finest
11-04-2018, 12:36 PM
I would do away with the split, no other country has got it, would also make it compulsary to have grass pitches as a rule for top league

StevieCowan
11-04-2018, 12:39 PM
I’m for it but its the absolute imbeciles that run the game that make it frustrating and over complicated.

danhibees1875
11-04-2018, 04:17 PM
Now that the fixtures are out, how can you not love the split concept?

Within a 3 week time frame; 14 games of massive importance, and Hearts v Celtic.

Elephant Stone
12-04-2018, 03:11 PM
Now that the fixtures are out, how can you not love the split concept?

Within a 3 week time frame; 14 games of massive importance, and Hearts v Celtic.

:agree: Unless you're mid table then it's pretty exciting, more "six pointers" than you can shake a stick at. Looking forward to it now.

Hibbyradge
12-04-2018, 03:59 PM
I would do away with the split, no other country has got it, would also make it compulsary to have grass pitches as a rule for top league

Loads of countries have leaves that split.

Jim44
12-04-2018, 04:17 PM
I’m against the split. I think that a league is only pure and valid if every team plays the same number of games against every other team in the league. This would demand restructuring and it’s unlikely to happen.

makaveli1875
12-04-2018, 04:21 PM
against