New Centre Political Party To Be Launched?

[One Day Soon]

As reported on front page of tomorrow's Observer. Interesting if true.

[Pete]

As reported on front page of tomorrow's Observer. Interesting if true.

This will be either be..

A: A bunch of Blairites who are worried about the way the Labour Party is going (by that I mean their own personal wealth is at risk, such as their investments or property portfolios).

B: The Liberal Democrat’s relaunch..where we might actually notice them.


Either way I hope it happens as it will ultimately restore trust when it comes to the Labour Party. The trust that every candidate is acting in good faith and there is no neoliberal agenda at play any more.

[IGRIGI]

A Tony Blair / George Osbourne dream team of career politicians, can't wait.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

As reported on front page of tomorrow's Observer. Interesting if true.

Coyld be interesting, but it is incredibly hard to build a new party, and i doubt most moderate Labour types wouldn't be interested in abandoning their party, ditto the tories and liberals.

Still, we live in hope!

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

I will reserve judgement until I can see where they are defining the centre to be.

[7 Up]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/07/new-political-party-break-mould-westminster-uk-brexit

A new party to be bankrolled by millionaires. Yeah, that will really break the mould of British politics...

[Glory Lurker]

The centre in UK politics is just an enabler for Toryism. Rangers fans without the bus fare, as it were.

[Future17]

Music to the Tories' ears.

[lord bunberry]

Unless they can get any sitting MPs to defect to them I can’t see it working. It sounds all very suspicious to me.

[hibsbollah]

The new SDP. Inevitable probably, a home for lost souls.

[Mibbes Aye]

The new SDP. Inevitable probably, a home for lost souls.

That was my first reaction, but on reflection I'm now not so sure.

The landscape and the dynamic has shifted massively in the last ten years and to an extent, the old rules no longer exist.

We've had coalition government, we've had incredibly massive referenda, we've had the Lib Dems obliterated and then started a tentative rebirth, we've had Labour transformed by a massive membership increase and seen people voting for the party in numbers not seen since 1997/2001 - and interestingly, a lot seem to be people who may have been engaged with politics but didn't previously vote.

Globally, it's a new and different place too. Trump, Putin's expansionism and the whole thing about cyber - as a weapon for state actors and about data and its use and misuse generally.

It feels a different world, different rules, and potentially a new party could thrive in a way that was always difficult before. How it communicates and gets its message across is key.

[Mibbes Aye]

This will be either be..

A: A bunch of Blairites who are worried about the way the Labour Party is going (by that I mean their own personal wealth is at risk, such as their investments or property portfolios).

B: The Liberal Democrat’s relaunch..where we might actually notice them.


Either way I hope it happens as it will ultimately restore trust when it comes to the Labour Party. The trust that every candidate is acting in good faith and there is no neoliberal agenda at play any more.

Blair, and perhaps more importantly Brown as Chancellor, played within the 'rules' of the mindset created in the eighties by Reagan, Thatcher and their acolytes, arguably as a means of getting elected in the first place and then getting re-elected.

That served to allow them the licence to implement progressive social policy though.

Brown's use of tax credits and the like, enabled a massive funneling of money to the marginalised, hence why there was a huge and positive shift in the levels of child and pensioner poverty through the Blair-Brown years.

There's nothing neo-liberal about that, quite the opposite in fact. It was subtle, it was stealthy and it was pragmatic.

What also amuses me is that Ed Miliband took that thinking a step further and was castigated - his attack on 'capitalist predators', his launching against the cartel of energy companies - yet what he was saying is stuff that wouldn't trouble the headline writers were May or Corbyn to come out with it today.

[One Day Soon]

Amazing to jump to conclusions about their politics and intentions without seeing evidence first surely?

The main parties have been asking for something like this for a while, conducting themselves as utter fuds both as organisations and in their leaders. You would imagine the increasingly tribal memberships of both Tory and Labour parties would welcome it - a chance to dump wet 'Remoaners' and 'centrist melts'. The hard right and hard left can then get on with variously vilifying foreigners and excusing anti-semitism in peace. The Lib-Dems on the other hand may need some fresh underpants.

Interesting in a context where Don't Know has outstripped Corbyn by 9 points as the best choice for Prime Minister and is snapping at Theresa May's heels just 4 points behind her. Maybe the new party should ask Ed Miliband to step up...

[hibsbollah]

That was my first reaction, but on reflection I'm now not so sure.

The landscape and the dynamic has shifted massively in the last ten years and to an extent, the old rules no longer exist.

We've had coalition government, we've had incredibly massive referenda, we've had the Lib Dems obliterated and then started a tentative rebirth, we've had Labour transformed by a massive membership increase and seen people voting for the party in numbers not seen since 1997/2001 - and interestingly, a lot seem to be people who may have been engaged with politics but didn't previously vote.

Globally, it's a new and different place too. Trump, Putin's expansionism and the whole thing about cyber - as a weapon for state actors and about data and its use and misuse generally.

It feels a different world, different rules, and potentially a new party could thrive in a way that was always difficult before. How it communicates and gets its message across is key.

That's a good analysis.

[Mibbes Aye]

Amazing to jump to conclusions about their politics and intentions without seeing evidence first surely?

The main parties have been asking for something like this for a while, conducting themselves as utter fuds both as organisations and in their leaders. You would imagine the increasingly tribal memberships of both Tory and Labour parties would welcome it - a chance to dump wet 'Remoaners' and 'centrist melts'. The hard right and hard left can then get on with variously vilifying foreigners and excusing anti-semitism in peace. The Lib-Dems on the other hand may need some fresh underpants.

Interesting in a context where Don't Know has outstripped Corbyn by 9 points as the best choice for Prime Minister and is snapping at Theresa May's heels just 4 points behind her. Maybe the new party should ask Ed Miliband to step up...

It's only Labour in its current state that could allow this culture without excoriating it- first principles have been lost and replaced by hobbyhorses of entryists and those who have ridden on the coattails, enjoying the benefits and the luxury to indulge themselves. Hobbyhorses with a nasty undertone.

My personal view is that the time is ripe for Ed to come back. See here for proof (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2017/apr/10/ed-miliband-performs-a-has-hit-take-on-me-on-the-last-leg-skit-video) of the man's ability :agree:

[One Day Soon]

It's only Labour in its current state that could allow this culture without excoriating it- first principles have been lost and replaced by hobbyhorses of entryists and those who have ridden on the coattails, enjoying the benefits and the luxury to indulge themselves. Hobbyhorses with a nasty undertone.

My personal view is that the time is ripe for Ed to come back. See here for proof (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2017/apr/10/ed-miliband-performs-a-has-hit-take-on-me-on-the-last-leg-skit-video) of the man's ability :agree:


It's become a disgusting parody of a left of centre party. It's now run by weirdo cranks, conspiracy theorists and intolerant tribalists. And the leadership figures are no better.

May's Tories are one of the most incompetent bunches of busted flush chancers you could ever hope to face and yet Corbyn's Labour couldn't beat her the first time, can't get ahead of them in the meantime and seem comfortable tolerating views our grandparents fought to wipe from the European map.

A new party might at least confront the twin idiocy of May and Corbyn and force them to broaden their political churches.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

That was my first reaction, but on reflection I'm now not so sure.

The landscape and the dynamic has shifted massively in the last ten years and to an extent, the old rules no longer exist.

We've had coalition government, we've had incredibly massive referenda, we've had the Lib Dems obliterated and then started a tentative rebirth, we've had Labour transformed by a massive membership increase and seen people voting for the party in numbers not seen since 1997/2001 - and interestingly, a lot seem to be people who may have been engaged with politics but didn't previously vote.

Globally, it's a new and different place too. Trump, Putin's expansionism and the whole thing about cyber - as a weapon for state actors and about data and its use and misuse generally.

It feels a different world, different rules, and potentially a new party could thrive in a way that was always difficult before. How it communicates and gets its message across is key.

Yeah, a bit like en marche in France perhaps?

I dont ser how people can moan about the state of politics, and then bemoan this - it seems an overdue step - perhaps the need for another party is not as evident in scotland where the SNP have sat astride the centre ground comfortably for the last decade?

Personally a strong liberal (small L) party is, i think what is required and what we are missing - basically a Blair era new labour with a dose of the best bits of Cameron's tories.

A modern, socially liberal party that will fixate on issues that matter to most people - economic growth, regulating where markets fail, making the govt as unobtrusive as possible to people's private lives - instead of obsessing about Europe or trying to take britain back to the 70s.

[Mibbes Aye]

Yeah, a bit like en marche in France perhaps?

Definitely similarities. At the same time, there's a different sense of nation and statehood to be thought of - France experienced revolutions and invasions in a way that the UK didn't and post-WW2 had the avoidance of war with Germany as a strategic driver. That feeds into the psyche and mindset, especially amongst those who do the governing, whether elected representatives or the civil servants who went to the grand ecoles

[Hiber-nation]

It's become a disgusting parody of a left of centre party. It's now run by weirdo cranks, conspiracy theorists and intolerant tribalists. And the leadership figures are no better.

May's Tories are one of the most incompetent bunches of busted flush chancers you could ever hope to face and yet Corbyn's Labour couldn't beat her the first time, can't get ahead of them in the meantime and seem comfortable tolerating views our grandparents fought to wipe from the European map.

A new party might at least confront the twin idiocy of May and Corbyn and force them to broaden their political churches.

Very true. A lot of people (like me) aren't totally convinced by Independence and would never vote for this Labour Party due to their leadership's far-left doctrine. Let's not write it off.

[Mibbes Aye]

That's a good analysis.

Cheers. I know we agree on some things and disagree on others, always welcome the chance to read your posts.

It does feel crucial to recognise that things are changing, and changing at a pace that is new.

There's an instanteousness now that doesn't just inform people's wants but informs their expectations.

There are positives in that but one fears whether it gives space for reflection and critique.

[Curried]

What a great idea. Perhaps they can call themselves the Peoples Front of Judea :-)

[hibsbollah]

Yeah, a bit like en marche in France perhaps?

I dont ser how people can moan about the state of politics, and then bemoan this - it seems an overdue step - perhaps the need for another party is not as evident in scotland where the SNP have sat astride the centre ground comfortably for the last decade?

Personally a strong liberal (small L) party is, i think what is required and what we are missing - basically a Blair era new labour with a dose of the best bits of Cameron's tories.

A modern, socially liberal party that will fixate on issues that matter to most people - economic growth, regulating where markets fail, making the govt as unobtrusive as possible to people's private lives - instead of obsessing about Europe or trying to take britain back to the 70s.

Funny you mention Macron. Im sure everyone whos travelled by train in France would agree that it puts the British experience to shame. I was on a train in France a couple of months ago, there was a big demo that only the French do at Marseille station, the demos were handing out leaflets, waving flags, loudspeakers, the usual thing. The leaflet was talking about how Macrons transport minister is presiding over cutbacks to the train system as precursor to selling it off to private operators. 'Anyone think its fair you are paying 140 euro to go to Paris when it cost you 90 last year?' lots of stuff like that. The thing that caught my eye was a boxed off paragraph at the bottom about how the UKs railways have gone to the dogs because of privatising the system, what happens every year to UK rail fares, all that sort of thing. Look what happened in the UK!

Its sobering when you realise that your own country is being used as a cautionary tale.

You could caricature this kind of thing as just evidence of the deranged radical French left being their usual stroppy selves, but its also evidence that the French might not agree with the description of Macrons administration as in any way 'moderate' or 'middle ground'. The man has already spoken of his admiration for Thatcher.

[Hibrandenburg]

Another party dividing up the electorate of right, centre and left. I can't help but think the recent turmoil in UK politics is setting us on the path to Weimar Republic like fractionation of the political spectrum. The left can't agree with each other, the right can't agree with each other and the centre is now a huge chasm that could incorporate a multitude of political aspects including far left and right view points. Our political system is standing on the edge of the abyss and the electorate are crying out for a strong charismatic leader who can unite them under an ideology that offers them hope. Dangerous times for democracy.

[Hibrandenburg]

Funny you mention Macron. Im sure everyone whos travelled by train in France would agree that it puts the British experience to shame. I was on a train in France a couple of months ago, there was a big demo that only the French do at Marseille station, the demos were handing out leaflets, waving flags, loudspeakers, the usual thing. The leaflet was talking about how Macrons transport minister is presiding over cutbacks to the train system as precursor to selling it off to private operators. 'Anyone think its fair you are paying 140 euro to go to Paris when it cost you 90 last year?' lots of stuff like that. The thing that caught my eye was a boxed off paragraph at the bottom about how the UKs railways have gone to the dogs because of privatising the system, what happens every year to UK rail fares, all that sort of thing. Look what happened in the UK!

Its sobering when you realise that your own country is being used as a cautionary tale.

You could caricature this kind of thing as just evidence of the deranged radical French left being their usual stroppy selves, but its also evidence that the French might not agree with the description of Macrons administration as in any way 'moderate' or 'middle ground'. The man has already spoken of his admiration for Thatcher.

All my life the UK has been able to sit back and smirk at the chaotic inadequacies of other banana republic like democracies, now the world is looking at us and shaking their heads in comical disbelief.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Funny you mention Macron. Im sure everyone whos travelled by train in France would agree that it puts the British experience to shame. I was on a train in France a couple of months ago, there was a big demo that only the French do at Marseille station, the demos were handing out leaflets, waving flags, loudspeakers, the usual thing. The leaflet was talking about how Macrons transport minister is presiding over cutbacks to the train system as precursor to selling it off to private operators. 'Anyone think its fair you are paying 140 euro to go to Paris when it cost you 90 last year?' lots of stuff like that. The thing that caught my eye was a boxed off paragraph at the bottom about how the UKs railways have gone to the dogs because of privatising the system, what happens every year to UK rail fares, all that sort of thing. Look what happened in the UK!

Its sobering when you realise that your own country is being used as a cautionary tale.

You could caricature this kind of thing as just evidence of the deranged radical French left being their usual stroppy selves, but its also evidence that the French might not agree with the description of Macrons administration as in any way 'moderate' or 'middle ground'. The man has already spoken of his admiration for Thatcher.

I only mentioned macron in terms of him leading a new electoral party to victory, as opposed to his ideology.

As for the demonstrations, i dont know.

Ive been on French railways and it was good - but ive also never been one to go on about how bad the railways are here. And i do remember how rubbish british railways was - they were also a national laugjing stock.

I dont doubt macron has his detractors, and given how militant and powerful some of the sectors and unions are in France, im sure he will have some fights on his hands!

[One Day Soon]

Another party dividing up the electorate of right, centre and left. I can't help but think the recent turmoil in UK politics is setting us on the path to Weimar Republic like fractionation of the political spectrum. The left can't agree with each other, the right can't agree with each other and the centre is now a huge chasm that could incorporate a multitude of political aspects including far left and right view points. Our political system is standing on the edge of the abyss and the electorate are crying out for a strong charismatic leader who can unite them under an ideology that offers them hope. Dangerous times for democracy.

I think you're not far away with Weimar. The othering of minorities, the rise of nationalism, fear and insecurity, competition for European influence, discredited political parties and deep unhappiness with the political establishment and major public institutions. The charismatic demagogue would be the final piece in the picture.

And all of it underpinned by what is argued in this link: http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/04/06/week-in-review-the-new-age-of-conspiracy-theory

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Another party dividing up the electorate of right, centre and left. I can't help but think the recent turmoil in UK politics is setting us on the path to Weimar Republic like fractionation of the political spectrum. The left can't agree with each other, the right can't agree with each other and the centre is now a huge chasm that could incorporate a multitude of political aspects including far left and right view points. Our political system is standing on the edge of the abyss and the electorate are crying out for a strong charismatic leader who can unite them under an ideology that offers them hope. Dangerous times for democracy.

I think Farage had a touch of that abput him actually.

Its a fair, if slightly worrying point. Its why we should all maybe be a biy less dismissive of 'centrists' and those seekinh consensus, and bit less tribal in our approach?

[Glory Lurker]

Yeah, a bit like en marche in France perhaps?

Personally a strong liberal (small L) party is, i think what is required and what we are missing - basically a Blair era new labour with a dose of the best bits of Cameron's tories.



Exactly what I meant earlier about centrist parties being enablers for Toryism.

[Hibrandenburg]

Exactly what I meant earlier about centrist parties being enablers for Toryism.

Or worse.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Exactly what I meant earlier about centrist parties being enablers for Toryism.

I dont follow...?

[Colr]

As reported on front page of tomorrow's Observer. Interesting if true.

It has a snowball’s chance in hell.

[Glory Lurker]

I dont follow...?

You want a party that blends Blair with Cameron. Which moved closer to the other's principles? Blair towards Toryism, or Cameron towards socialism? Is there any chat of centrist elements of the Tory party breaking off? Has there ever been? The centre ground is for folk who can't bring themselves to admit they are one-world Tories. They need to get out the way and stop pretending there is a, ahem, third way.

[lord bunberry]

They’ve looked at Macron in France and thought we can do the same. It won’t work here because we are four nations with different agendas.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

You want a party that blends Blair with Cameron. Which moved closer to the other's principles? Blair towards Toryism, or Cameron towards socialism? Is there any chat of centrist elements of the Tory party breaking off? Has there ever been? The centre ground is for folk who can't bring themselves to admit they are one-world Tories. They need to get out the way and stop pretending there is a, ahem, third way.

I dont agree.

The centre ground is where people who dont hold to ideology sit. People who want to get on with their lives with a minimum of fuss, who want govt to act where it needs to, but who see the govt as the solution to every problem

For example, alex salmonds SNP goct were very centrist.

I would say blair's leadership and economic approach and his soxial principles, with a dash of cameron govt social libertarianism, and a foreign policy that is internationalist, pro EU (i know this is unlikely!) and believes in liberal interventionism.

I doubt any labour or tory mps would split, but unless we try, we are stuck woth two parties who are basically doing the political equivalent of staying together for the kids, which is leading us into some bizare places and given us very polarised politics.

[Smartie]

It's been a strange few years, and from time to time you surprise yourself with who you find yourself agreeing with.

I don't think it is as simple as left/ right, good/ bad any more. The more central, moderate parts of the Labour and Conservative parties will find that they have much more in common than they thought, and share more values with each other than the lunatic fringes of either party.

It's a strange world where the moderate middle ground is now inhabited by libtards, remoaners and sneered at for their sensible, moderate and balanced views.

The middle ground is there for the taking, and there are a lot of people (myself included) crying out for sensible alternatives to the drivel we are currently being offered.

[snooky]

It's been a strange few years, and from time to time you surprise yourself with who you find yourself agreeing with.

I don't think it is as simple as left/ right, good/ bad any more. The more central, moderate parts of the Labour and Conservative parties will find that they have much more in common than they thought, and share more values with each other than the lunatic fringes of either party.

It's a strange world where the moderate middle ground is now inhabited by libtards, remoaners and sneered at for their sensible, moderate and balanced views.

The middle ground is there for the taking, and there are a lot of people (myself included) are crying out for sensible alternatives to the drivel we are currently being offered.

Good post, Smartie.
Years ago I thought a centre party was the answer to all our problems. When the Soc-Dems were formed, I thought we'd get it.
Alas, all it did was attract mostly the centre left and split the old Labour vote, making the Tolies stronger. Labour came back with a shift to the centre but has struggled following Tony Blair's disasterous war games and subsequent poor leaders.
The whole political scene just now is a box of loose jigsaw pieces.
The country is screaming for a strong, charismatic & popular leader - irrespective of party.
However, be warned: this is how Hitler got started.

[SHODAN]

"However, it also backs centre-right ideas on wealth creation and entrepreneurship, and is keen to explore tighter immigration controls"

That's just what we need, another ****ing anti-immigrant party.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

"However, it also backs centre-right ideas on wealth creation and entrepreneurship, and is keen to explore tighter immigration controls"

That's just what we need, another ****ing anti-immigrant party.

Is this kind of hyperbole and shutting down of discussion not exactly what pushed so many towards more extreme parties?

Every single country in the world has immigration controls, including the EU. To dismiss any discussion on what is the best approach is daft.

[Colr]

You want a party that blends Blair with Cameron. Which moved closer to the other's principles? Blair towards Toryism, or Cameron towards socialism? Is there any chat of centrist elements of the Tory party breaking off? Has there ever been? The centre ground is for folk who can't bring themselves to admit they are one-world Tories. They need to get out the way and stop pretending there is a, ahem, third way.

Any new party can’t look back. We’re run by a shower of baby boomer dotards and desperately need to get rid of the dead wood policians who have made their careers looking after the old at the expense of the young.

We need new blood in politics!!

[Pretty Boy]

Any new party can’t look back. We’re run by a shower of baby boomer dotards and desperately need to get rid of the dead wood policians who have made their careers looking after the old at the expense of the young.

We need new blood in politics!!

:top marks

[RyeSloan]

It's been a strange few years, and from time to time you surprise yourself with who you find yourself agreeing with.

I don't think it is as simple as left/ right, good/ bad any more. The more central, moderate parts of the Labour and Conservative parties will find that they have much more in common than they thought, and share more values with each other than the lunatic fringes of either party.

It's a strange world where the moderate middle ground is now inhabited by libtards, remoaners and sneered at for their sensible, moderate and balanced views.

The middle ground is there for the taking, and there are a lot of people (myself included) crying out for sensible alternatives to the drivel we are currently being offered.

Top post.

Relatively recently there was complaints that all major parties were clustered in the middle and there was no choice. Now it seems there is a view that it’s just left and right being represented.

To me in most arguments the truth is normally somewhere in the middle and there is also the argument that you need a successful middle otherwise you simply get more polarisation and more have and have nots.

I’m not sure we need a new political party but then again it’s a relatively common thing in a lot of countries so don’t see that the concept should just be written off from the outset.

[AndyM_1875]

It would be an interesting development for sure and it would only have to work in England to gain traction, that ground is already occupied in Scotland.

Take a group of well known social democratic Labourites and liberal Tories and you have a new UK party a la En Marche.
Labour's lurch left under Corbyn and his Momentum troops makes him unelectable in the eyes of many people who are similarly disheartened by the state of the Tories who appear to be a rudderless ship under May with the control of their party being fought over by far right zealots who still play the "immigrants are bad" card. They find the thought of Boris or Jacob Rees Mogg as Prime Minister utterly horrifying.

Policies? Basic Scandanavian Social Democracy, Single Market/Customs Union Membership, further devolution in England, PR, Business friendly, socially liberal, pro NHS? But how do they avoid the depressing fate of the SDP? I dunno.

[snooky]

It would be an interesting development for sure and it would only have to work in England to gain traction, that ground is already occupied in Scotland.

Take a group of well known social democratic Labourites and liberal Tories and you have a new UK party a la En Marche.
Labour's lurch left under Corbyn and his Momentum troops makes him unelectable in the eyes of many people who are similarly disheartened by the state of the Tories who appear to be a rudderless ship under May with the control of their party being fought over by far right zealots who still play the "immigrants are bad" card. They find the thought of Boris or Jacob Rees Mogg as Prime Minister utterly horrifying.

Policies? Basic Scandanavian Social Democracy, Single Market/Customs Union Membership, further devolution in England, PR, Business friendly, socially liberal, pro NHS? But how do they avoid the depressing fate of the SDP? I dunno.

Pray tell me who doesn't. :cool2:

[JeMeSouviens]

It would be an interesting development for sure and it would only have to work in England to gain traction, that ground is already occupied in Scotland.

Take a group of well known social democratic Labourites and liberal Tories and you have a new UK party a la En Marche.
Labour's lurch left under Corbyn and his Momentum troops makes him unelectable in the eyes of many people who are similarly disheartened by the state of the Tories who appear to be a rudderless ship under May with the control of their party being fought over by far right zealots who still play the "immigrants are bad" card. They find the thought of Boris or Jacob Rees Mogg as Prime Minister utterly horrifying.

Policies? Basic Scandanavian Social Democracy, Single Market/Customs Union Membership, further devolution in England, PR, Business friendly, socially liberal, pro NHS? But how do they avoid the depressing fate of the SDP? I dunno.

The short answer is probably electoral reform. Without that, you have to get to the sort of tipping point that saw the SNP nearly sweep the board in 2015. Far too much vested interest for reform though. :rolleyes:

The French system gave Macron a chance. He could win the presidency basically by himself and then fill in the parliamentary candidates later. Plus he got to face a divided field where the socialists were all over the place, the main centre right candidate refused to resign despite being found to have given his wife a salary for doing nothing and Le Pen is a Le Pen.

[beensaidbefore]

"However, it also backs centre-right ideas on wealth creation and entrepreneurship, and is keen to explore tighter immigration controls"

That's just what we need, another ****ing anti-immigrant party.


See Australia. If they don't need you, you are a criminal, or you can't support yourself, you are not welcome. I have no problem with something similar being implemented in this country.

[johnbc70]

Is this kind of hyperbole and shutting down of discussion not exactly what pushed so many towards more extreme parties?

Every single country in the world has immigration controls, including the EU. To dismiss any discussion on what is the best approach is daft.

It was, and it was this accusation that anyone that dared discuss immigration was a racist. So the mainstream parties ignored it and ignored the people who had concerns and we got Brexit.

[beensaidbefore]

It was, and it was this accusation that anyone that dared discuss immigration was a racist. So the mainstream parties ignored it and ignored the people who had concerns and we got Brexit.

And now racial tensions are far worse than if we had had a sensible discussion about it. You couldn't make it up.

[Curried]

See Australia. If they don't need you, you are a criminal, or you can't support yourself, you are not welcome. I have no problem with something similar being implemented in this country.

Changed days indeed!

[IGRIGI]

Social Media has definitely led to a situation where there are some on the left that will call anyone a racist fascist Nazi for wanting even the most lenient of immigration control.

I feel it is really harming the debate in Europe and has led to the rise of parties such as the AFD in Germany because people are now just saying "**** it" and throwing their lot in with parties they wouldn't have thought of voting for previously due to their genuine concerns being dismissed as racism.

[AndyM_1875]

The short answer is probably electoral reform. Without that, you have to get to the sort of tipping point that saw the SNP nearly sweep the board in 2015. Far too much vested interest for reform though. :rolleyes:

The French system gave Macron a chance. He could win the presidency basically by himself and then fill in the parliamentary candidates later. Plus he got to face a divided field where the socialists were all over the place, the main centre right candidate refused to resign despite being found to have given his wife a salary for doing nothing and Le Pen is a Le Pen.

They'd need a name as leader. Some have mentioned David Milliband. Undoubtedly he has appeal and he's no lightweight. But even with that you'd need a group of Labour & Tory MPs ready to jump ship too. Not sure that the likes of Jess Phillips, Dan Jarvis, Nicky Morgan, Anna Soubry etc would leave their parties. So I can't see it.

[beensaidbefore]

Changed days indeed!

Not sure what you mean.

[Mon Dieu4]

There needs to be a sensible debate on lots of subjects in the current climate, but to even bring up the subject will get you branded a fascist or nazi by the only people who are actively shutting down talks and debates just now, I'm of the firm belief that you can say anything you like as long as you are not inciting violence, it's then up to others to counter your views and give a reasoned debate, not try and shut you down

More often than not the extreme left and Antifa stopping these talks at universities and public places etc are giving them more publicity, most of the far right people will sound like a complete mentalist if you just give them enough rope to hang themselves with

The extreme left and right are two cheeks of the same arse and are the vocal minority, the majority of us just want to live in peace and treat people as we wish to be treated ourselves without worrying about being branded a racist, fascist, transphobic, sexist etc

As someone who used to be pretty left leaning I'm now totally turned off by all this and find myself taking things on a case by case basis, not sure any one party could meet my requirements but if they came to the most sensible compromise with a bit give and take they may well get my vote

[overdrive]

Any party occupying the Blairite New Labour space will get my vote. No party offers that right now.

[Curried]

Not sure what you mean.

A believe a large proportion of the Australian populous is drawn from convict stock, so it would be rather hypocritical for their Government to refuse anyone with a conviction.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Any party occupying the Blairite New Labour space will get my vote. No party offers that right now.

Absolutely!

[Glory Lurker]

Any party occupying the Blairite New Labour space will get my vote. No party offers that right now.

Presumably with the PFI time bomb and lust for illegal wars missed out this time?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Presumably with the PFI time bomb and lust for illegal wars missed out this time?

In Blair's defence, the legality of war is a grey area, but personally i only think iraq was a war of aggression, and wrong. Afghanistan was justified, and was right.

But you make a good point, about being careful of foreign entanglements.

[Colr]

Presumably with the PFI time bomb and lust for illegal wars missed out this time?

What PFI time bomb?

1. Introducing the National Minimum Wage and establishing the Low Pay Commission

2. Tripled spending on our NHS, an increase of over £66bn – more than doubling health spending per capita

3. Investing in 42,400 extra teachers and 212,000 more support staff – including an extra 123,100 teaching assistants

4. More than doubling Britain’s overseas aid budget, helping lift an estimated three million people out of poverty each year

5. Scrapped Section 28 and introduced civil partnerships

6. Introducing the Human Rights Act

7. More than doubling the number of apprenticeships

8. Creating Sure Start, with 3,500 centres opened across the country

9. Lifting 900,000 pensioners out of poverty

10. Introducing Tax Credits meaning a single mum working part time could be over £6000 better off

11. Peace in Northern Ireland

12. Reducing the number of people waiting over six months for an operation from 284,000 to almost zero by 2010

13. Powering over 2 million homes from offshore wind, giving Britain more offshore wind capacity than any country in the world

14. Introduced the Equality and Human Rights Commission to stamp out all forms of discrimination

15. The Child Poverty Act, lifting 600,000 children out of relative poverty

16. Investing in 44,000 more doctors and over 89,000 more nurses

17. Reducing the UK’s greenhouse gas emissions by 21 per cent from 1990 levels, beating the Kyoto target

18. Increased state pension

19. Preventing genocide in Kosovo

20. The introduction of the Winter Fuel Allowance

21. Extended free eye tests for over 60s

22. The 2008 Climate Change Act

23. Number of police officers up by 16,000, and 16,000 more Police Community Support Officers

24. Extending the opening hours of over three quarters of GP practices

25. Removing the majority of hereditary peers from the House of Lords

26. Decreased homelessness by 73% since 2003

27. A free part-time nursery place for every three and four year old

28. Increasing paid annual leave to 28 days per year

29. Free prescriptions for cancer patients

30. Doubled education funding for every pupil in Britain

31. Introduced Paternity Leave, giving fathers 2 weeks off

32. Increased the value of Child Benefit by over 26%

33. Established the Food Standards Agency

34. Introduced the Equality Act preventing discrimination on the grounds of their sexual orientation

35. The Freedom of Information Act

36. Increasing the number of university places with a majority of women going to Further Education

37. Assuring the construction of Crossrail with a £5 billion grant from the government

38. Helping to end the civil war in Sierra Leone

39. Rural Development Programme for England which makes £3.9 billion available 2007 – 2013 to protect the rural environment

40. The introduction of Educational Maintenance Allowances as having a positive impact in encouraging pupils after 16 years to stay in education, attend regularly, focus and make real progress. They have helped to turn many young people’s lives around.

41.Extended free off-peak bus travel for over-60s and disabled travellers

42. Creating the Scottish Parliament

43. A ban on the use, production and stockpiling of cluster bombs

44. The ban on new grammar schools

45. Heart disease deaths down by 150,000 and cancer deaths down by 50,000.

46. Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 1960s

47. Investing £20 billion in improvements to social housing conditions – ‘one of Labour’s greatest legacies’ (Housing Insider UK)

48. Removed the minimum donations limit from Gift Aid

49. Reducing the number of people on waiting lists by over 500,000; waiting times fell to a maximum of 18 weeks, their lowest ever levels

50. Rise in the number of school leavers with five good GCSEs from 45% to 76%

51. The Young Person’s Job Guarantee

52. Statutory union recognition

53. The introduction of Pension Credits

54. Cut long-term youth unemployment by 75%

55. Free school milk and fruit

56. The Disability Rights Commission

57. Doubled the number of registered childcare spaces

58. Raised the legal age of buying cigarettes to 18 and banned tobacco advertising in magazines, newspapers and on billboards

59. Free entry to galleries and museums

60. Tax exemptions on childcare vouchers

61. Establishing the Welsh Assembly

62. The 2009 Autism Act, the fist ever disability specific law in England

63. New Deal for Communities programme, which invested £2 billion in some of the most deprived areas of England

64. Established the Electoral Commission

65. Halved Britain’s nuclear arsenal

66. Free television licences for those aged 75 or over on the day that the BBC publishes its strategy review

67. Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since before the industrial revolution.

68. Free off peak local bus travel for over-60s.

69. Introducing the EU Social Chapter and abolishing the opt out ensuring rights on workers’ consultation, employment rights and social security.

70. Free breast cancer screening for all women aged between 50-70.

71. Record low A&E waiting times

72. Over 3 million child trust funds started under Labour’s CTF scheme

73. Extended the Race Relations Act so that all public bodies and functions now have a duty to promote race equality

74. Reintroduced matrons to hospital wards

75. Establishing The UK Film Council

76. The 2012 Olympics

77. Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals.

78. The Hunting Act

79. 93,000 more 11-year-olds achieving in numeracy each year

80. The Creation of the Department for International Development contributing £20 million a year towards regional programmes in Southern Africa

81. Reduced class sizes, improving academic attainment

82. 10 years of continuous economic growth and leading the response to the global financial crisis, leaving our economy in growth in 2010

83. Ran more surpluses and paid off more national debt than every Tory Chancellor in the last 40 years combined

84. Introducing Proportional Representation to the UK political system

85. Healthier school meals

86. Providing 3 million people with access to lifesaving drugs for HIV and AIDS

87. Introduced the right to request flexible working

88. Established NHS Direct

89. Points-based system of non-EU immigration

90. Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003

91. Introduced vaccinations for teenage girls to protect against cervical cancer

92. Violent incidents down by a half (49%) from 1995

93. Labour’s New Deal – helped over 1.8 million people into work.

94. Equalised the age of consent

95. Introduced the smoking ban

96. Introduced directly-elected mayors

97. Introducing the public interest test

98. Record number of students in higher education

99. Crime down by 45% since 1995

100. Wrote off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries, helping lift 3 million people out of poverty every year

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

What PFI time bomb?

1. Introducing the National Minimum Wage and establishing the Low Pay Commission

2. Tripled spending on our NHS, an increase of over £66bn – more than doubling health spending per capita

3. Investing in 42,400 extra teachers and 212,000 more support staff – including an extra 123,100 teaching assistants

4. More than doubling Britain’s overseas aid budget, helping lift an estimated three million people out of poverty each year

5. Scrapped Section 28 and introduced civil partnerships

6. Introducing the Human Rights Act

7. More than doubling the number of apprenticeships

8. Creating Sure Start, with 3,500 centres opened across the country

9. Lifting 900,000 pensioners out of poverty

10. Introducing Tax Credits meaning a single mum working part time could be over £6000 better off

11. Peace in Northern Ireland

12. Reducing the number of people waiting over six months for an operation from 284,000 to almost zero by 2010

13. Powering over 2 million homes from offshore wind, giving Britain more offshore wind capacity than any country in the world

14. Introduced the Equality and Human Rights Commission to stamp out all forms of discrimination

15. The Child Poverty Act, lifting 600,000 children out of relative poverty

16. Investing in 44,000 more doctors and over 89,000 more nurses

17. Reducing the UK’s greenhouse gas emissions by 21 per cent from 1990 levels, beating the Kyoto target

18. Increased state pension

19. Preventing genocide in Kosovo

20. The introduction of the Winter Fuel Allowance

21. Extended free eye tests for over 60s

22. The 2008 Climate Change Act

23. Number of police officers up by 16,000, and 16,000 more Police Community Support Officers

24. Extending the opening hours of over three quarters of GP practices

25. Removing the majority of hereditary peers from the House of Lords

26. Decreased homelessness by 73% since 2003

27. A free part-time nursery place for every three and four year old

28. Increasing paid annual leave to 28 days per year

29. Free prescriptions for cancer patients

30. Doubled education funding for every pupil in Britain

31. Introduced Paternity Leave, giving fathers 2 weeks off

32. Increased the value of Child Benefit by over 26%

33. Established the Food Standards Agency

34. Introduced the Equality Act preventing discrimination on the grounds of their sexual orientation

35. The Freedom of Information Act

36. Increasing the number of university places with a majority of women going to Further Education

37. Assuring the construction of Crossrail with a £5 billion grant from the government

38. Helping to end the civil war in Sierra Leone

39. Rural Development Programme for England which makes £3.9 billion available 2007 – 2013 to protect the rural environment

40. The introduction of Educational Maintenance Allowances as having a positive impact in encouraging pupils after 16 years to stay in education, attend regularly, focus and make real progress. They have helped to turn many young people’s lives around.

41.Extended free off-peak bus travel for over-60s and disabled travellers

42. Creating the Scottish Parliament

43. A ban on the use, production and stockpiling of cluster bombs

44. The ban on new grammar schools

45. Heart disease deaths down by 150,000 and cancer deaths down by 50,000.

46. Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 1960s

47. Investing £20 billion in improvements to social housing conditions – ‘one of Labour’s greatest legacies’ (Housing Insider UK)

48. Removed the minimum donations limit from Gift Aid

49. Reducing the number of people on waiting lists by over 500,000; waiting times fell to a maximum of 18 weeks, their lowest ever levels

50. Rise in the number of school leavers with five good GCSEs from 45% to 76%

51. The Young Person’s Job Guarantee

52. Statutory union recognition

53. The introduction of Pension Credits

54. Cut long-term youth unemployment by 75%

55. Free school milk and fruit

56. The Disability Rights Commission

57. Doubled the number of registered childcare spaces

58. Raised the legal age of buying cigarettes to 18 and banned tobacco advertising in magazines, newspapers and on billboards

59. Free entry to galleries and museums

60. Tax exemptions on childcare vouchers

61. Establishing the Welsh Assembly

62. The 2009 Autism Act, the fist ever disability specific law in England

63. New Deal for Communities programme, which invested £2 billion in some of the most deprived areas of England

64. Established the Electoral Commission

65. Halved Britain’s nuclear arsenal

66. Free television licences for those aged 75 or over on the day that the BBC publishes its strategy review

67. Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since before the industrial revolution.

68. Free off peak local bus travel for over-60s.

69. Introducing the EU Social Chapter and abolishing the opt out ensuring rights on workers’ consultation, employment rights and social security.

70. Free breast cancer screening for all women aged between 50-70.

71. Record low A&E waiting times

72. Over 3 million child trust funds started under Labour’s CTF scheme

73. Extended the Race Relations Act so that all public bodies and functions now have a duty to promote race equality

74. Reintroduced matrons to hospital wards

75. Establishing The UK Film Council

76. The 2012 Olympics

77. Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals.

78. The Hunting Act

79. 93,000 more 11-year-olds achieving in numeracy each year

80. The Creation of the Department for International Development contributing £20 million a year towards regional programmes in Southern Africa

81. Reduced class sizes, improving academic attainment

82. 10 years of continuous economic growth and leading the response to the global financial crisis, leaving our economy in growth in 2010

83. Ran more surpluses and paid off more national debt than every Tory Chancellor in the last 40 years combined

84. Introducing Proportional Representation to the UK political system

85. Healthier school meals

86. Providing 3 million people with access to lifesaving drugs for HIV and AIDS

87. Introduced the right to request flexible working

88. Established NHS Direct

89. Points-based system of non-EU immigration

90. Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003

91. Introduced vaccinations for teenage girls to protect against cervical cancer

92. Violent incidents down by a half (49%) from 1995

93. Labour’s New Deal – helped over 1.8 million people into work.

94. Equalised the age of consent

95. Introduced the smoking ban

96. Introduced directly-elected mayors

97. Introducing the public interest test

98. Record number of students in higher education

99. Crime down by 45% since 1995

100. Wrote off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries, helping lift 3 million people out of poverty every year

I do enjoy a list like this, they are terrible pieces of political spin, and Im always amazed how conveniently, there are a nice round 100 achievements. Not 101, not 99.

Have to say though, i was critical of the blair era st the time as i felt they didnt do enough with their mandate - but i was also younger and more radical in them days, and in fact was too young to even vote in 1997.

And while he undoubtedly came to power at an opportune time, he was a good leader who really defined an era. If only he had stood down at the end of his second term, and not invaded iraq, his legacy would be beyond doubt.

Someone of his ilk is badly needed just now.

[RyeSloan]

I do enjoy a list like this, they are terrible pieces of political spin, and Im always amazed how conveniently, there are a nice round 100 achievements. Not 101, not 99.

Have to say though, i was critical of the blair era st the time as i felt they didnt do enough with their mandate - but i was also younger and more radical in them days, and in fact was too young to even vote in 1997.

And while he undoubtedly came to power at an opportune time, he was a good leader who really defined an era. If only he had stood down at the end of his second term, and not invaded iraq, his legacy would be beyond doubt.

Someone of his ilk is badly needed just now.

They are classic and I’m slightly disappointed R7 hasn’t been along with the SNP version again (note: sarcasm) [emoji13]

[One Day Soon]

What PFI time bomb?

1. Introducing the National Minimum Wage and establishing the Low Pay Commission

2. Tripled spending on our NHS, an increase of over £66bn – more than doubling health spending per capita

3. Investing in 42,400 extra teachers and 212,000 more support staff – including an extra 123,100 teaching assistants

4. More than doubling Britain’s overseas aid budget, helping lift an estimated three million people out of poverty each year

5. Scrapped Section 28 and introduced civil partnerships

6. Introducing the Human Rights Act

7. More than doubling the number of apprenticeships

8. Creating Sure Start, with 3,500 centres opened across the country

9. Lifting 900,000 pensioners out of poverty

10. Introducing Tax Credits meaning a single mum working part time could be over £6000 better off

11. Peace in Northern Ireland

12. Reducing the number of people waiting over six months for an operation from 284,000 to almost zero by 2010

13. Powering over 2 million homes from offshore wind, giving Britain more offshore wind capacity than any country in the world

14. Introduced the Equality and Human Rights Commission to stamp out all forms of discrimination

15. The Child Poverty Act, lifting 600,000 children out of relative poverty

16. Investing in 44,000 more doctors and over 89,000 more nurses

17. Reducing the UK’s greenhouse gas emissions by 21 per cent from 1990 levels, beating the Kyoto target

18. Increased state pension

19. Preventing genocide in Kosovo

20. The introduction of the Winter Fuel Allowance

21. Extended free eye tests for over 60s

22. The 2008 Climate Change Act

23. Number of police officers up by 16,000, and 16,000 more Police Community Support Officers

24. Extending the opening hours of over three quarters of GP practices

25. Removing the majority of hereditary peers from the House of Lords

26. Decreased homelessness by 73% since 2003

27. A free part-time nursery place for every three and four year old

28. Increasing paid annual leave to 28 days per year

29. Free prescriptions for cancer patients

30. Doubled education funding for every pupil in Britain

31. Introduced Paternity Leave, giving fathers 2 weeks off

32. Increased the value of Child Benefit by over 26%

33. Established the Food Standards Agency

34. Introduced the Equality Act preventing discrimination on the grounds of their sexual orientation

35. The Freedom of Information Act

36. Increasing the number of university places with a majority of women going to Further Education

37. Assuring the construction of Crossrail with a £5 billion grant from the government

38. Helping to end the civil war in Sierra Leone

39. Rural Development Programme for England which makes £3.9 billion available 2007 – 2013 to protect the rural environment

40. The introduction of Educational Maintenance Allowances as having a positive impact in encouraging pupils after 16 years to stay in education, attend regularly, focus and make real progress. They have helped to turn many young people’s lives around.

41.Extended free off-peak bus travel for over-60s and disabled travellers

42. Creating the Scottish Parliament

43. A ban on the use, production and stockpiling of cluster bombs

44. The ban on new grammar schools

45. Heart disease deaths down by 150,000 and cancer deaths down by 50,000.

46. Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 1960s

47. Investing £20 billion in improvements to social housing conditions – ‘one of Labour’s greatest legacies’ (Housing Insider UK)

48. Removed the minimum donations limit from Gift Aid

49. Reducing the number of people on waiting lists by over 500,000; waiting times fell to a maximum of 18 weeks, their lowest ever levels

50. Rise in the number of school leavers with five good GCSEs from 45% to 76%

51. The Young Person’s Job Guarantee

52. Statutory union recognition

53. The introduction of Pension Credits

54. Cut long-term youth unemployment by 75%

55. Free school milk and fruit

56. The Disability Rights Commission

57. Doubled the number of registered childcare spaces

58. Raised the legal age of buying cigarettes to 18 and banned tobacco advertising in magazines, newspapers and on billboards

59. Free entry to galleries and museums

60. Tax exemptions on childcare vouchers

61. Establishing the Welsh Assembly

62. The 2009 Autism Act, the fist ever disability specific law in England

63. New Deal for Communities programme, which invested £2 billion in some of the most deprived areas of England

64. Established the Electoral Commission

65. Halved Britain’s nuclear arsenal

66. Free television licences for those aged 75 or over on the day that the BBC publishes its strategy review

67. Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since before the industrial revolution.

68. Free off peak local bus travel for over-60s.

69. Introducing the EU Social Chapter and abolishing the opt out ensuring rights on workers’ consultation, employment rights and social security.

70. Free breast cancer screening for all women aged between 50-70.

71. Record low A&E waiting times

72. Over 3 million child trust funds started under Labour’s CTF scheme

73. Extended the Race Relations Act so that all public bodies and functions now have a duty to promote race equality

74. Reintroduced matrons to hospital wards

75. Establishing The UK Film Council

76. The 2012 Olympics

77. Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals.

78. The Hunting Act

79. 93,000 more 11-year-olds achieving in numeracy each year

80. The Creation of the Department for International Development contributing £20 million a year towards regional programmes in Southern Africa

81. Reduced class sizes, improving academic attainment

82. 10 years of continuous economic growth and leading the response to the global financial crisis, leaving our economy in growth in 2010

83. Ran more surpluses and paid off more national debt than every Tory Chancellor in the last 40 years combined

84. Introducing Proportional Representation to the UK political system

85. Healthier school meals

86. Providing 3 million people with access to lifesaving drugs for HIV and AIDS

87. Introduced the right to request flexible working

88. Established NHS Direct

89. Points-based system of non-EU immigration

90. Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003

91. Introduced vaccinations for teenage girls to protect against cervical cancer

92. Violent incidents down by a half (49%) from 1995

93. Labour’s New Deal – helped over 1.8 million people into work.

94. Equalised the age of consent

95. Introduced the smoking ban

96. Introduced directly-elected mayors

97. Introducing the public interest test

98. Record number of students in higher education

99. Crime down by 45% since 1995

100. Wrote off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries, helping lift 3 million people out of poverty every year


A party offering that list - or rather its contemporary equivalent - and with the ability to win an election would be a beacon of hope but seems a lifetime away.

[Glory Lurker]

Colr, I'm not going to work through your list, but that's not a sign I agree that Blair takes credit for all that's on it. I definitely don't.

Where I came in to this argument was saying centrism enables Toryism. It doesn't mean there can't be pockets of good on the way, but the direction of travel is to the right.

I take it you have a view on PFI that makes you comfortable it was a good thing, but my take on it is that it was a way of putting hard spending (or more honestly, taxation) decisions off. The gigantic debts it has racked up stayed off the balance books and big business creams off profits for decades with the state paying the bill.

As for Blair and Brown's love affair with the banking sector...

[Hibbyradge]

I do enjoy a list like this, they are terrible pieces of political spin, and Im always amazed how conveniently, there are a nice round 100 achievements. Not 101, not 99.

Have to say though, i was critical of the blair era st the time as i felt they didnt do enough with their mandate - but i was also younger and more radical in them days, and in fact was too young to even vote in 1997.

And while he undoubtedly came to power at an opportune time, he was a good leader who really defined an era. If only he had stood down at the end of his second term, and not invaded iraq, his legacy would be beyond doubt.

Someone of his ilk is badly needed just now.

Add "Restored trade union rights at GCHQ" to make it 101 :wink:

[Colr]

A party offering that list - or rather its contemporary equivalent - and with the ability to win an election would be a beacon of hope but seems a lifetime away.

Bet everyone’s glad you quoted my post!!

[Smartie]

Colr, I'm not going to work through your list, but that's not a sign I agree that Blair takes credit for all that's on it. I definitely don't.

Where I came in to this argument was saying centrism enables Toryism. It doesn't mean there can't be pockets of good on the way, but the direction of travel is to the right.

I take it you have a view on PFI that makes you comfortable it was a good thing, but my take on it is that it was a way of putting hard spending (or more honestly, taxation) decisions off. The gigantic debts it has racked up stayed off the balance books and big business creams off profits for decades with the state paying the bill.

As for Blair and Brown's love affair with the banking sector...

It depends on the starting position.

From the left, especially the further left then the direction of travel is to the right.

From the right especially the far right then the direction of travel is very much to the left.

It would be very welcome to see the many nuggets who have shifted further and further right attracted back towards the centre ground.

If England were to shift to the left a bit and Scotland shuffle a bit to the right, I might even be forced to re-visit my views on Independence.......

[One Day Soon]

Bet everyone’s glad you quoted my post!!

I was happy to do it. :agree:

[snooky]

PFI can PFO. :cb