London murders

[beensaidbefore]

WTF is going on. 56 murder investigations this year alone. Anyone know how many there are in Scotland for this period?

Edit: 61 for the whole of the stat year 2016/17 https://beta.gov.scot/publications/homicide-scotland-2016-17-9781788512367/

Something seriously wrong in London at the moment t.

[Just Jimmy]

What's the population of London compared to Scotland?

8.78 million v 5.4 million.

Not shocking stats at all.

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[snooky]

What's the population of London compared to Scotland?

8.78 million v 5.4 million.

Not shocking stats at all.

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London's overtaken New York apparently in murders. Not sure if it's per capita though.

[Mibbes Aye]

What's the population of London compared to Scotland?

8.78 million v 5.4 million.

Not shocking stats at all.

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Regardless of the population size, 56 murder investigations in little over three months is a shocking statistic - that's around four a week.

It was good to see the media publicity given to Glasgow's approach, treating knife crime as a public health issue as much as a criminal one (I think they had taken ideas and practice from Cincinatti). When that work started I think Scotland had the second highest murder rate in Western Europe and that's reduced significantly since, by trying to focus as much as possible on intervention work at a very local level - streets and schemes - and looking at the whole range of agencies that have a role in contributing.

At the same time that was accompanied by a more forceful police presence - increased 'stop and search' for example, which already is controversial especially in London - and also increased sentences for knife possession.

Beefing up the punishment side will never be the sole solution though. It's got to be complemented by work which looks at diverting people from knife crime in the first place and that involves the community itself as well as a whole range of local authority and health services.

This is critical because the headlines about the murders shouldn't obscure the bigger issue of knife crime where people don't die but suffer life-changing trauma and injury, whether physical, psychological or emotional. I heard the head of trauma at Bart's being interviewed on R4 the other day and he said that he had surgeons who compared the admissions they were getting with the troops they had been treating in camp Bastion in Afghanistan, in terms of the damage being done. He also made the point that in his time the victims have got progressively younger. When he started he said he dealt mostly with men in their twenties. Nowadays, treating someone in a school uniform was no longer a surprise and starting to almost become the norm.

[Just Jimmy]

Regardless of the population size, 56 murder investigations in little over three months is a shocking statistic - that's around four a week.

It was good to see the media publicity given to Glasgow's approach, treating knife crime as a public health issue as much as a criminal one (I think they had taken ideas and practice from Cincinatti). When that work started I think Scotland had the second highest murder rate in Western Europe and that's reduced significantly since, by trying to focus as much as possible at intervention work at a very local level - streets and schemes - and looking at the whole range of agencies that have a role in contributing.

At the same time that was accompanied by a more forceful police presence - increased 'stop and search' for example, which already is controversial especially in London - and also increased sentences for knife possession.

Beefing up the punishment side will never be the sole solution though. It's got to be complemented by work which looks at diverting people from knife crime in the first place and that involves the community itself as well as a whole range of local authority and health services.Hard to disagree with any of that. My reply was simply that I'm not shocked by the stats. Gang culture runs rife in the capital too.

More needs done but where does the money come from to do It?

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[beensaidbefore]

What's the population of London compared to Scotland?

8.78 million v 5.4 million.

Not shocking stats at all.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

That was for a whole year in Scotland. That many in just over 3 months is pointing to something being seriously wrong imo

[lord bunberry]

Is this what big Marv was going on about on twitter?

[Mibbes Aye]

Hard to disagree with any of that. My reply was simply that I'm not shocked by the stats. Gang culture runs rife in the capital too.

More needs done but where does the money come from to do It?

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A lot of the services are already in existence but aren't reaching people and that's where the groundwork in engaging people in local communities needs to take place.

At the same time, some of the most critical services like child and adolescent mental health have suffered some of the biggest cuts in funding and resources over the last several years.

If we are talking about money in a very blunt and cold sense, the costs of admitting people to an ICU, treating them in hospital and then possibly years or a lifetime of ongoing medical support or social care, plus the cost of investigating and prosecuting serious crime and the cost of imprisoning people for lengthy periods outweigh the costs of proper community-focused intervention to divert people from being the perpetrators or the victims of gang and knife crime. It's 'spend to save' from a financial point of view, but it's also 'spend to save' people's lives and their life chances.

[beensaidbefore]

A lot of the services are already in existence but aren't reaching people and that's where the groundwork in engaging people in local communities needs to take place.

At the same time, some of the most critical services like child and adolescent mental health have suffered some of the biggest cuts in funding and resources over the last several years.

If we are talking about money in a very blunt and cold sense, the costs of admitting people to an ICU, treating them in hospital and then possibly years or a lifetime of ongoing medical support or social care, plus the cost of investigating and prosecuting serious crime and the cost of imprisoning people for lengthy periods outweigh the costs of proper community-focused intervention to divert people from being the perpetrators or the victims of gang and knife crime. It's 'spend to save' from a financial point of view, but it's also 'spend to save' people's lives and their life chances.

Very nicely put. I'd add to that, communities where there are known problems should be encouraged to identify perpetrators. No doubt intimidation keeps a lot of people quiet, but communities need to recognise when they have a problem and act. Without their buy in it will be difficult for the services you described to reach the right people.

[Just Jimmy]

A lot of the services are already in existence but aren't reaching people and that's where the groundwork in engaging people in local communities needs to take place.

At the same time, some of the most critical services like child and adolescent mental health have suffered some of the biggest cuts in funding and resources over the last several years.

If we are talking about money in a very blunt and cold sense, the costs of admitting people to an ICU, treating them in hospital and then possibly years or a lifetime of ongoing medical support or social care, plus the cost of investigating and prosecuting serious crime and the cost of imprisoning people for lengthy periods outweigh the costs of proper community-focused intervention to divert people from being the perpetrators or the victims of gang and knife crime. It's 'spend to save' from a financial point of view, but it's also 'spend to save' people's lives and their life chances.Again I don't disagree at all.

do not get me wrong. more needs done, that is beyond question. however stop and search works yet it is consistently criticised. as the post above notes there must be an element of self policing with communities.

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[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Again I don't disagree at all.

do not get me wrong. more needs done, that is beyond question. however stop and search works yet it is consistently criticised. as the post above notes there must be an element of self policing with communities.

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Stop and search is both helpful and devicive at the same time. The way that it is implemented is key. No real argument that stop and search without reasonable grounds was a significant catalyst for the race riots of the seventies and early eighties.

[Just Jimmy]

Stop and search is both helpful and devicive at the same time. The way that it is implemented is key. No real argument that stop and search without reasonable grounds was a significant catalyst for the race riots of the seventies and early eighties.that has to come from the engagement with the communities. someone needs to say why are our young people killing each other and how can we engage to fix the issues? added to the fact our police force needs to be aware of how it can be viewed. it's a concept of policing by consent - if the community is engaged to end the violence and wasted lives then the police can work with that. until then it's difficult to make change.

there does need to be tougher penalties imposed for crossing certain lines too.

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[Mibbes Aye]

Stop and search is both helpful and devicive at the same time. The way that it is implemented is key. No real argument that stop and search without reasonable grounds was a significant catalyst for the race riots of the seventies and early eighties.


that has to come from the engagement with the communities. someone needs to say why are our young people killing each other and how can we engage to fix the issues? added to the fact our police force needs to be aware of how it can be viewed. it's a concept of policing by consent - if the community is engaged to end the violence and wasted lives then the police can work with that. until then it's difficult to make change.

there does need to be tougher penalties imposed for crossing certain lines too.

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Both valid posts.

The evidence is clear that engagement needs to take place. It's laborious and doesn't always demonstrate quick returns, can be hard to measure and doesn't lend itself to targets or deadlines. Nevertheless it is vital.

'Stop and search' is fraught and has been racially divisive, which shifts it from a crime issue to a political or human rights issue, and makes it harder to deal with the fundamental problem of why young men and children choose or feel it necessary to carry and potentially use a blade.

Finding the balance between engagement and punishment feels critical. I'm not convinced that the balance in the Glasgow approach is right for London - the critical thing is that there's scope for that decision-making to be at borough level, or even better, at district, scheme or street level.