78 year old man arrested for murder

[snooky]

Shocking news.
A 78 year old man arerested for allegedly murdering one of two men who broke into his house and attacked him with a screwdriver. The old man has the nerve to stab one of the assailant who was half his age. Deserves a lengthy jail sentence ..... or a VC, IMO.
I trust there will be a sensible outcome to the charge and the Law won't be it's usual erkie.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43639183

[Hibbyradge]

The police have to arrest him. He killed someone.

It'll be up to the CPS to decide whether or not to prosecute him and up to the courts to decide if he deserves to go to jail.

Unless there are circumstances we don't yet know about, which there could be, I think it will go to court and he'll plea self defence and be found not guilty.

[Just Jimmy]

He's been arrested for GBH. I think. Not murder.

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[snooky]

The police have to arrest him. He killed someone.

It'll be up to the CPS to decide whether or not to prosecute him and up to the courts to decide if he deserves to go to jail.

Unless there are circumstances we don't yet know about, which there could be,I think it will go to court and he'll plea self defence and be found not guilty.

I know they have to arrest him and a lot depends on the actual circumstances. My point is, how will the law deal with this? I remember a farmer near Ipswich shot an intruder and was jailed.
FWIW, years ago a similar incident happened in a town I used to live in. The homeowner was jailed for killing an intruder (one of 3). Without meaning to sound cold, it did quieten down break-in attempts for a few years.

[cabbageandribs1875]

give the auld guy a medal :agree: serves the sticky-fingered thieving b*****d right, just a pity he didn't get the other yin

[lucky]

Doubt he’ll ever face a murder charge in court. More likely to be man slaughter but I hope he doesn’t and does not get charged at all.

[Hibbyradge]

I know they have to arrest him and a lot depends on the actual circumstances. My point is, how will the law deal with this? I remember a farmer near Ipswich shot an intruder and was jailed.
FWIW, years ago a similar incident happened in a town I used to live in. The homeowner was jailed for killing an intruder (one of 3). Without meaning to sound cold, it did quieten down break-in attempts for a few years.

I remember that case. He was found guilty of murdering a young laddie who was burgling his house because he had shot him in the back as he was running away.

Also, he didn't have a license for the gun because he'd lost his right to own a gun after he'd shot at someone's car.

Some folk held him up to be a hero. The jury didn't.

[Magnus]

Duncan Ferguson has found a burglar in his house on more than one occasion.
Each time the culprit subsequently spent a period of time recovering courtesy of the NHS.

[IGRIGI]

If you enter the house of someone else to steal you should be prepared to lose your life.

I know I'd have no issue in ending someone's life to protect mine and my family's.

[beensaidbefore]

I remember that case. He was found guilty of murdering a young laddie who was burgling his house because he had shot him in the back as he was running away.

Also, he didn't have a license for the gun because he'd lost his right to own a gun after he'd shot at someone's car.

Some folk held him up to be a hero. The jury didn't.



Did the farmer not have a shotgun set up with a trip wire type thing, to fire at whoever it was repeatedly breaking in?

Maybe just made that bit up, but seem to remember reading something about it.

[Hibbyradge]

Did the farmer not have a shotgun set up with a trip wire type thing, to fire at whoever it was repeatedly breaking in?

Maybe just made that bit up, but seem to remember reading something about it.

The allegation was certainly that he was lying in wait, but I'm not sure if that was accepted.

I think his sentence was reduced on appeal too.

Burglars cause a lot of misery, but shooting someone for nicking your telly or DVD player isn't right.

In that case, the boy hadn't got anything and was running away.

[Just Jimmy]

The allegation was certainly that he was lying in wait, but I'm not sure if that was accepted.

I think his sentence was reduced on appeal too.

Burglars cause a lot of misery, but shooting someone for nicking your telly or DVD player isn't right.

In that case, the boy hadn't got anything and was running away.If you enter someone else's property with the intention of causing them misery in the form of theft or personal harm then you should accept whatever comes your way.

The law should reflect that also.

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[Hibrandenburg]

Burglars cause a lot of misery, but shooting someone for nicking your telly or DVD player isn't right.

Not sure how I'd react if I found someone in my house. If I thought either my family or myself was in any danger then the burglar would have to take into account that he might die.

I've been burgled once but fortunately for the burglar and probably me I wasn't home. Unfortunately for him the police left a sticker with the case number and his name and address on a stolen item they returned. I heard he had a run in with some nasty people whilst I was back in Scotland on holiday.

[snooky]

Not sure how I'd react if I found someone in my house. If I thought either my family or myself was in any danger then the burglar would have to take into account that he might die.

I've been burgled once but fortunately for the burglar and probably me I wasn't home. Unfortunately for him the police left a sticker with the case number and his name and address on a stolen item they returned. I heard he had a run in with some nasty people whilst I was back in Scotland on holiday.

Just as well you were away, you could have been a suspect. :whistle:

[beensaidbefore]

Not sure how I'd react if I found someone in my house. If I thought either my family or myself was in any danger then the burglar would have to take into account that he might die.

I've been burgled once but fortunately for the burglar and probably me I wasn't home. Unfortunately for him the police left a sticker with the case number and his name and address on a stolen item they returned. I heard he had a run in with some nasty people whilst I was back in Scotland on holiday.

Real shame that, and very convenient.😉

[Glory Lurker]

A victim-judged and sanctioned death penalty for house breaking wouldn't be a forward step.

[Beefster]

The allegation was certainly that he was lying in wait, but I'm not sure if that was accepted.

I think his sentence was reduced on appeal too.

Burglars cause a lot of misery, but shooting someone for nicking your telly or DVD player isn't right.

In that case, the boy hadn't got anything and was running away.

Depends on whether you feel that your family is at risk or not IMHO. I think it would be natural to expect the worse case scenario and act accordingly.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I think the point is proportionality.

If you find someone in your home, fear for you or your families safety (as you would) and crack someone over the head with the first item that comes to hand, and they die as a result, that would probably be legitimate self defence.

If you shoot someone in the back with an illegal shotgun as they are leaving your property, that is vigilante revenge.

I was also told by someone that the weapon you uae matters. A pre meditated violent weapon, a sword, or axe or something, that is different to you picking up a bedroom lamp or general household implement, or something like that.

[patch1875]

Wonder if there more to this than we know yet?

Burglars are the **** of the earth we had an attempted break in a few weeks ago thankfully they didn’t get in but it’s now left my daughter scared to be in own home.

Now have a hammer by my bed anyone else tries they will be getting introduced to it.

[Hibrandenburg]

Just as well you were away, you could have been a suspect. :whistle:

Lucky escape that was. :wink:

[Hibrandenburg]

Real shame that, and very convenient.😉

Karma :dunno:

[Scouse Hibee]

A spate of burgalries once resulted in the setting them up with a few loose conversations in the pub about a house being empty/away on holiday etc. They broke in to find a group waiting to show them hospitality, after "the party" the visitors were found a few streets away, they must have been jumped on their way home. They couldn't recall what had happened though.

[DH1875]

Depends on whether you feel that your family is at risk or not IMHO. I think it would be natural to expect the worse case scenario and act accordingly.

Dont care if he's just steeling the TV or not. I've got 2 young daughters at home and wouldn't hesitate if some guy was creeping about my house.

[CapitalGreen]

Wonder if there more to this than we know yet?

Burglars are the **** of the earth we had an attempted break in a few weeks ago thankfully they didn’t get in but it’s now left my daughter scared to be in own home.

Now have a hammer by my bed anyone else tries they will be getting introduced to it.

Anyone?

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/edinburgh-s-child-criminals-is-a-9-year-old-the-capital-s-youngest-ever-housebreaker-1-4717373

[patch1875]

Anyone?

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/edinburgh-s-child-criminals-is-a-9-year-old-the-capital-s-youngest-ever-housebreaker-1-4717373

Maybe with a hammer out of a kids tool set!

Think there was also a 12 & 14yo arrested around midnight house breaking a few weeks ago.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Knee jerk reactions are never great. That covers both scenarios where any punishment is either too severe or too lenient. Full facts need to come out.

[snooky]

I remember years ago an old relative of mine was awakened by someone rummaging about downstairs.
He and his teenage daughter went down and jumped on the intruder. After a minute of scuffling they realised it was a drunk neighbour who had mistakingly thought his wife had locked him out - he was just at the wrong house.

Please be careful with that hammer, Patch. :wink:

[CapitalGreen]

I remember years ago an old relative of mine was awakened by someone rummaging about downstairs.

Was it not his wife?

[sleeping giant]

I remember years ago an old relative of mine was awakened by someone rummaging about downstairs.
He and his teenage daughter went down and jumped on the intruder. After a minute of scuffling they realised it was a drunk neighbour who had mistakingly thought his wife had locked him out - he was just at the wrong house.

Please be careful with that hammer, Patch. :wink:

Happened to me years ago when my bairns were babies.
Awoke to hear some guy trying to get in. Looked through the peephole to see him try to shoulder the door.

I took a deep breath , thought "right , do or die" opened the door , grabbed him and dragged him down the stairs and about to fill him in when he started screaming that he was at the wrong door.

He had entered the wrong stair on his way home p1shed.

[Steve-O]

If you enter someone else's property with the intention of causing them misery in the form of theft or personal harm then you should accept whatever comes your way.

The law should reflect that also.

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Wrong. If they are there to cause YOU physical harm, then yes, self defence is appropriate. Most burglars, the VAST majority, are not there to do that. Killing them will mostly not be a proportionate response.

[Scouse Hibee]

Wrong. If they are there to cause YOU physical harm, then yes, self defence is appropriate. Most burglars, the VAST majority, are not there to do that. Killing them will mostly not be a proportionate response.

ALL burglars do not want to get caught, their response to you confronting them can easily become violent, your response is then one for survival.

[Beefster]

I remember years ago an old relative of mine was awakened by someone rummaging about downstairs.

Lucky *******.

[Steve-O]

ALL burglars do not want to get caught, their response to you confronting them can easily become violent, your response is then one for survival.

I would say the majority of burglars will bolt asap rather than become involved in a violent encounter. Of course, if they do become violent you’re absolutely entitled to defend yourself by any means necessary.

[speedy_gonzales]

I've posted this story on these boards before but 13 years ago some scrote tried to enter our house in the dead of night, they had their hand inside the door and were trying to undo the safety chain. I shouted as I ran down the stairs but when the police came I did I wished is silently came down and caught his fingers in the door jam, cleaving them if need be. The policewoman was very clear I would have been charged with ABH or similar,,,,I was totally frustrated considering their attendance and subsequent visit by SOCO came up with zilch and it seemed like they were going through the motions!

[snooky]

Lucky *******.

:greengrin You live in hope ....

[Hibrandenburg]

Lucky *******.

:faf:

[Bostonhibby]

The allegation was certainly that he was lying in wait, but I'm not sure if that was accepted.

I think his sentence was reduced on appeal too.

Burglars cause a lot of misery, but shooting someone for nicking your telly or DVD player isn't right.

In that case, the boy hadn't got anything and was running away.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Martin_(farmer)

If you mean this one, it's not that far from here and I guess it's about what everyone's breaking point is and how they react when they're tipped over the edge. Not persistently robbing the guy might have been a way to avoid him being backed into a corner and lashing out.



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[Jim44]

If you enter someone else's property with the intention of causing them misery in the form of theft or personal harm then you should accept whatever comes your way.

The law should reflect that also.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk


Wrong. If they are there to cause YOU physical harm, then yes, self defence is appropriate. Most burglars, the VAST majority, are not there to do that. Killing them will mostly not be a proportionate response.


ALL burglars do not want to get caught, their response to you confronting them can easily become violent, your response is then one for survival.


Someone made an interesting point on a radio phone-in. Normally, burglars are only there to profit by theft, probably unarmed, but if they know that the home-owner is likely to use a weapon, they themselves are likely to ‘arm’ up, leading to tragic consequences for all parties. I’m not saying I agree with this opinion but it’s something worth thinking about.

[Hibrandenburg]

A spate of burgalries once resulted in the setting them up with a few loose conversations in the pub about a house being empty/away on holiday etc. They broke in to find a group waiting to show them hospitality, after "the party" the visitors were found a few streets away, they must have been jumped on their way home. They couldn't recall what had happened though.

Burglars are ****. It goes beyond losing stuff of monetary or personal value, many people suffer mental health issues after having their homes invaded/violated by strangers. Paranoia and anxiety are frequently the result of people no longer feeling safe in their own homes, especially amongst women living alone. I wouldn't be asking a burglar to explain his intentions before I neutralized the threat, maybe afterwards.

[Bostonhibby]

I've posted this story on these boards before but 13 years ago some scrote tried to enter our house in the dead of night, they had their hand inside the door and were trying to undo the safety chain. I shouted as I ran down the stairs but when the police came I did I wished is silently came down and caught his fingers in the door jam, cleaving them if need be. The policewoman was very clear I would have been charged with ABH or similar,,,,I was totally frustrated considering their attendance and subsequent visit by SOCO came up with zilch and it seemed like they were going through the motions!Interesting one!

I am aware of a case where a burglar attempted to turn a yale lock open by reaching it through a wealthy old couples letter box when they were out.

Unfortunately for him their 2 Doberman Pinschers mauled his arm and he lost 2 fingers as well.

Whilst imprisoned he managed to get a lawyer to pursue a civil case against the home owners for his injuries and loss of earnings. They alleged having trained guard dogs was an excessive precaution in the circumstances. The court did not agree so he lost as did the tax payer who funded the case through legal aid

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[Sir David Gray]

The police will be duty bound to arrest him he is, after all, responsible for someone losing their life.

There is no way he should be charged though and I highly doubt he will be.

Anyone who decides to enter another person's home with the intention of stealing their property is fair game in my opinion and the homeowner should be allowed to take whatever steps they feel are necessary in order to protect themselves, their home and their family. If that results in the thief losing their life then so be it.

Well done to the man, he's saved the police many hours of investigative work only to see their efforts go to waste when the burglar goes to court and receives a pathetic sentence.

[snooky]

Interesting one!

I am aware of a case where a burglar attempted to turn a yale lock open by reaching it through a wealthy old couples letter box when they were out.

Unfortunately for him their 2 Doberman Pinschers mauled his arm and he lost 2 fingers as well.

Whilst imprisoned he managed to get a lawyer to pursue a civil case against the home owners for his injuries and loss of earnings. They alleged having trained guard dogs was an excessive precaution in the circumstances. The court did not agree so he lost as did the tax payer who funded the case through legal aid

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It's stories like these that make my blood boil. :grr: :brickwall :timebomb:
Mantra time again, T-L-I-A-A

[Sir David Gray]

Interesting one!

I am aware of a case where a burglar attempted to turn a yale lock open by reaching it through a wealthy old couples letter box when they were out.

Unfortunately for him their 2 Doberman Pinschers mauled his arm and he lost 2 fingers as well.

Whilst imprisoned he managed to get a lawyer to pursue a civil case against the home owners for his injuries and loss of earnings. They alleged having trained guard dogs was an excessive precaution in the circumstances. The court did not agree so he lost as did the tax payer who funded the case through legal aid

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Welcome to Britain where the criminals have more rights than the victims.

The "loss of earnings" argument would have been interesting!

[Silky]

Wrong. If they are there to cause YOU physical harm, then yes, self defence is appropriate. Most burglars, the VAST majority, are not there to do that. Killing them will mostly not be a proportionate response.

In this case, I'm sure I read that the burglar had the old guy contained in his kitchen and was "armed" with a screwdriver. That is an implement which could injure, maim or even kill someone. In that case, I think the old guy's response WAS proportionate. The burglar had been caught in the act and no doubt shat himself. He could have easily attacked the old guy purely out of fright. If it was me, I certainly wouldn't have waited to see if he 'blinked first'.

[Hibbyradge]

Welcome to Britain where the criminals have more rights than the victims.

The "loss of earnings" argument would have been interesting!

Except the criminal lost.

[snooky]

Except the criminal lost.

He shouldn't have got anywhere near the starting line to begin with.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Its interesting to see some of the attitudes here (which i agree with), but to contrast that to the thread on gun laws in the USA. Im sure the NRA or whoever would say guns are an important part of protecting your home and family.

Also, am i right in saying that you are allowed to shoot intruders in the USA with little or no recourse, or is that an urban myth?

[One Day Soon]

Three years ago we had a one week old new car stolen from our driveway while I was away. My wife and the two kids (they were then aged 11 and 8) were at home at the time. The thieves broke into the house via the back door at about 1 in the morning, searched for the car keys and then stole the car. It was found written off about a week later. Pretty coincidental that a break-in took place just one week after a new car arrives, unless of course it had been spotted and then the break in planned, which of course creates a nice unsettling sense of being targeted.

Both kids were traumatised by the car being stolen, the related police activity and most particularly the fact that unidentified strangers had broken into the house and must have been there for some time while they were asleep. If it happened once after all, why couldn't it happen again?

Since then we have had a relative murdered in extremely violent circumstances. Thankfully we have managed to keep the reality and specifics of his death from the kids because I honestly think that would have caused quite deep seated long term trauma for them.

All this is by way of saying that burglars - and criminals generally - create consequences that go way, way beyond their immediate criminal acts. The costs are huge.

At one in the morning, in darkness, with someone breaking in while I'm half asleep there is no way I'm going to be debating the finer points in my head as to what their motivation may be, whether they're armed, how many of them there are, whether they're 'nice' burglars who only want to steal our possessions or whether they're psychos who may become physically or sexually violent with people in the house. They're there carrying out premeditated action that threatens me and my family directly.

I'm assuming the worst and acting immediately to make sure they stop where they are and don't ever come back. They have no rights in those circumstances as far as I'm concerned. If a court wants to take a different view at leisure after the fact then good luck to them.

Oh and the police never caught the thieves.

[Colr]

I recall quite a few years back a Scottish businessman got lost in New Orleans after a night out. He banged on the door of a house to try and get help but the home owners, thinking he was going to be robbed shot him dead on the doorstep.

He was defending his property so no charges where brought, as I recall.

[haagsehibby]

Apparently he and his family have got form for targetting elderly people and the dead guy was already wanted for robbing a pensioner. Karma is a bitch as they say.

[Beefster]

Its interesting to see some of the attitudes here (which i agree with), but to contrast that to the thread on gun laws in the USA. Im sure the NRA or whoever would say guns are an important part of protecting your home and family.

Also, am i right in saying that you are allowed to shoot intruders in the USA with little or no recourse, or is that an urban myth?

Same sort of thing as here, I think. It’s all about proportionality. Whether that means convictions are difficult to get is another issue.

[JeMeSouviens]

I recall quite a few years back a Scottish businessman got lost in New Orleans after a night out. He banged on the door of a house to try and get help but the home owners, thinking he was going to be robbed shot him dead on the doorstep.

He was defending his property so no charges where brought, as I recall.

This one? It was Houston. The householder didn't even open the door - they shot through it.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/scot-is-shot-dead-when-mistaken-for-prowler-1398645.html

[JeMeSouviens]

Three years ago we had a one week old new car stolen from our driveway while I was away. My wife and the two kids (they were then aged 11 and 8) were at home at the time. The thieves broke into the house via the back door at about 1 in the morning, searched for the car keys and then stole the car. It was found written off about a week later. Pretty coincidental that a break-in took place just one week after a new car arrives, unless of course it had been spotted and then the break in planned, which of course creates a nice unsettling sense of being targeted.

Both kids were traumatised by the car being stolen, the related police activity and most particularly the fact that unidentified strangers had broken into the house and must have been there for some time while they were asleep. If it happened once after all, why couldn't it happen again?

Since then we have had a relative murdered in extremely violent circumstances. Thankfully we have managed to keep the reality and specifics of his death from the kids because I honestly think that would have caused quite deep seated long term trauma for them.

All this is by way of saying that burglars - and criminals generally - create consequences that go way, way beyond their immediate criminal acts. The costs are huge.

At one in the morning, in darkness, with someone breaking in while I'm half asleep there is no way I'm going to be debating the finer points in my head as to what their motivation may be, whether they're armed, how many of them there are, whether they're 'nice' burglars who only want to steal our possessions or whether they're psychos who may become physically or sexually violent with people in the house. They're there carrying out premeditated action that threatens me and my family directly.

I'm assuming the worst and acting immediately to make sure they stop where they are and don't ever come back. They have no rights in those circumstances as far as I'm concerned. If a court wants to take a different view at leisure after the fact then good luck to them.

Oh and the police never caught the thieves.


While I sympathise with the sentiment, I really can't imagine that's the best strategy. How are your kids going to feel if you end up shot (dead even) yourself? There are a hell of a lot more burglars around than pyschos. I would think that making a disruptive noise which would hopefully scare them off without immediately confronting them might be better?

[blackpoolhibs]

I actually caught a burglar when we owned a Hotel, i quite enjoyed the subsequent 5 minutes rag dolling the parasite around the place.

And my 5 iron at golf improved no end after the practise i got using it on him.

Steven Brown was the ****bags name, he got 18 month after his release from hospital, and i got £2k compo for my broken knuckles.

The good news now is the dickhead is dead, he was released early from prison and was arrested on his first day out after being caught burgling another house and was given 3 years.

He got out after serving his sentence and died of an overdose. :greengrin:greengrin:greengrin:thumbsup::thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[JeMeSouviens]

The only time someone's intruded in my house it turned out to be the polis! Came right up the stairs at 4am to tell me I'd left the garage door wide open. I was not amused. :grr:

[RyeSloan]

I’ve not followed this one too closely but I understand the old boy knifed the intruder who had cornered him in the kitchen while armed with a screwdriver...said intruder then fled and collapsed near the scene before later dying.

Now as someone has been stabbed and died the police have arrested the old boy responsible and then released him on bail pending further enquiries.

Those enquiries I assume are to establish the facts of the matter and then determine if there are any charges to be brought. As the intruder was armed and that there was two of them and had it appears threatened the householder it appears that following due process its highly likely no charges will be brought.

If I have that right then I’m not quite understanding why people are getting upset by it all. As someone has been knifed and killed surely the police are duty bound to arrest, investigate then decide on the next course of action no matter what the circumstances of the knifing may be?

Sure if the guy is then charged with murder or manslaughter then there is plenty of room for debate but until that happens what do people expect or what to have happened differently?

[Just Jimmy]

No charges to be faced.

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[snooky]

No charges to be faced.

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Good news.
I suspect he'll be burglar-free for a while.

[essexhibee]

Its interesting to see some of the attitudes here (which i agree with), but to contrast that to the thread on gun laws in the USA. Im sure the NRA or whoever would say guns are an important part of protecting your home and family.

Also, am i right in saying that you are allowed to shoot intruders in the USA with little or no recourse, or is that an urban myth?

Might be dependent on states. I think Florida and Texas for example have stand your ground laws.

[IGRIGI]

I actually caught a burglar when we owned a Hotel, i quite enjoyed the subsequent 5 minutes rag dolling the parasite around the place.

And my 5 iron at golf improved no end after the practise i got using it on him.

Steven Brown was the ****bags name, he got 18 month after his release from hospital, and i got £2k compo for my broken knuckles.

The good news now is the dickhead is dead, he was released early from prison and was arrested on his first day out after being caught burgling another house and was given 3 years.

He got out after serving his sentence and died of an overdose. :greengrin:greengrin:greengrin:thumbsup::thumbsup: :thumbsup:


Savage :greengrin

[blackpoolhibs]

Savage :greengrin

It does seem like that, but until you actually know what its like to confront someone in your own property, its very difficult to explain the emotions that go through your mind.

He tried to attack me with a lump of wood that he was carrying, but where you get the strength from i don't know.

I blocked it with my left arm and grabbed a blue tetleys ashtray that was on one of the bar tables and smacked the twat right in the mouth, teeth went everywhere, and he went down.

Anger takes over and you i just had a flurry of punches and boots into his body and head to render him helpless.

Then calmness happens, that was when i asked my missus to hand me a golf club that were behind the bar, and i won't deny it, it felt good.

There were a couple of comedy moments later when the police arrived, he was laying on the floor and the first copper who walked in laughed, i kid you not he laughed, and said what you doing here steven, looks like you picked the wrong house this time.:wink:

Later after the statements, one of the policemen took me to hospital to get my hand seen to, and when they took the xrays, after my knuckles they wanted to take one of the palm of my hand that had a small cut.

I said its ok, but the doctor said it could perhaps have some teeth in it, and druggies carry all sorts of diseases. The copper said i better go back and get your shoes, as i think you will find most of his teeth on them. :greengrin

This ****bag was a one man burglary machine, and well known to the police. Everytime i said something that may have incriminated me in my statement, the policeman said now Gary are you sure.:greengrin

They wanted this tosser off the streets alright.

And he's now permanently off them. :thumbsup:

[AFKA5814_Hibs]

A tribute to the deid burglar has been left outside the OAP's house with a bunch of flowers and a note saying he was loved by many and had a heart of gold. What a bloody nerve. :rolleyes: Hope the flowers have been ripped to shreds and the note burned to pieces.

[One Day Soon]

A tribute to the deid burglar has been left outside the OAP's house with a bunch of flowers and a note saying he was loved by many and had a heart of gold. What a bloody nerve. :rolleyes: Hope the flowers have been ripped to shreds and the note burned to pieces.

Someone should steal the flowers.

[Sir David Gray]

A tribute to the deid burglar has been left outside the OAP's house with a bunch of flowers and a note saying he was loved by many and had a heart of gold. What a bloody nerve. :rolleyes: Hope the flowers have been ripped to shreds and the note burned to pieces.

Disgusting.

I hope the real victim in all of this is able to move on from what's happened and isn't too traumatised by it all.

I wouldn't be giving the burglar a second thought. He went in there without any regard for the wellbeing of the homeowners. Hell mend him.

[Pete]

A tribute to the deid burglar has been left outside the OAP's house with a bunch of flowers and a note saying he was loved by many and had a heart of gold. What a bloody nerve. :rolleyes: Hope the flowers have been ripped to shreds and the note burned to pieces.


Disgusting.

I hope the real victim in all of this is able to move on from what's happened and isn't too traumatised by it all.

I wouldn't be giving the burglar a second thought. He went in there without any regard for the wellbeing of the homeowners. Hell mend him.

I’m totally for the rights of people to defend themselves but for gods sake...who’s the real victim now?

The house owner, having admittedly been through an ordeal, has been let off with all the charges and will have a pint waiting for him in every blue part of leafy, landlord dwelling England.

The burglar isn’t only pan bried, he can’t defend himself against all the accusations and his family will no doubt suffer as a result.

Distinct lack of empathy.

[AFKA5814_Hibs]

I’m totally for the rights of people to defend themselves but for gods sake...who’s the real victim now?

The house owner, having admittedly been through an ordeal, has been let off with all the charges and will have a pint waiting for him in every blue part of leafy, landlord dwelling England.

The burglar isn’t only pan bried, he can’t defend himself against all the accusations and his family will no doubt suffer as a result.

Distinct lack of empathy.

Most of his family appear to be inside from what I've read, so they can grieve from their prison cells. They have a long history of conning and robbing old folk as they're obviously seen as easy touch. If the guy hadn't entered the house to rob the old boy he'd still be here, so no sympathy from me.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

While I sympathise with the sentiment, I really can't imagine that's the best strategy. How are your kids going to feel if you end up shot (dead even) yourself? There are a hell of a lot more burglars around than pyschos. I would think that making a disruptive noise which would hopefully scare them off without immediately confronting them might be better?

I read something written by a security expert and it made that point - dont get between them and their exit- no matter how hard you may be, or think you may be, desperate people with little to lose are very dangerous and very inpredictable.

Personally id be trying to make sure my family were safe, and id only attack if i felt i had no other option - but its easy to say all this when it isnt actually happening.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I’m totally for the rights of people to defend themselves but for gods sake...who’s the real victim now?

The house owner, having admittedly been through an ordeal, has been let off with all the charges and will have a pint waiting for him in every blue part of leafy, landlord dwelling England.

The burglar isn’t only pan bried, he can’t defend himself against all the accusations and his family will no doubt suffer as a result.

Distinct lack of empathy.

You fly with the crows, you get shot down with the crows.

Seems to me like the world has one fewer ****bags in it this morning, and that is a good thing.

[Scouse Hibee]

You fly with the crows, you get shot down with the crows.

Seems to me like the world has one fewer ****bags in it this morning, and that is a good thing.

Agreed, I also feel the same about "joy" riders in stolen cars and scrambler bike idiots.

[Beefster]

I’m totally for the rights of people to defend themselves but for gods sake...who’s the real victim now?

The house owner, having admittedly been through an ordeal, has been let off with all the charges and will have a pint waiting for him in every blue part of leafy, landlord dwelling England.

The burglar isn’t only pan bried, he can’t defend himself against all the accusations and his family will no doubt suffer as a result.

Distinct lack of empathy.

The home owner could be completely traumatised for all you know.

FWIW, the list of the dead guy’s convictions and jail terms aren’t accusations, they are facts. As is the fact that he was in an old guy’s house without permission and armed with a screwdriver. If someone in my family had that history, I might be sad at his passing but I’d be pragmatic enough to realise that he was mainly responsible for his own death.

[snooky]

I’m totally for the rights of people to defend themselves but for gods sake...who’s the real victim now?

The house owner, having admittedly been through an ordeal, has been let off with all the charges and will have a pint waiting for him in every blue part of leafy, landlord dwelling England.

The burglar isn’t only pan bried, he can’t defend himself against all the accusations and his family will no doubt suffer as a result.

Distinct lack of empathy.
Not one ounce from me.
As far as I'm concerned, it's one for the good guys for a change.

[Hibrandenburg]

I’m totally for the rights of people to defend themselves but for gods sake...who’s the real victim now?

The house owner, having admittedly been through an ordeal, has been let off with all the charges and will have a pint waiting for him in every blue part of leafy, landlord dwelling England.

The burglar isn’t only pan bried, he can’t defend himself against all the accusations and his family will no doubt suffer as a result.

Distinct lack of empathy.

I truly would love to be able to agree with you. All my beliefs and instincts tell me that I should feel sorry that someone is grieving the loss of a relative, I just don't.

[sleeping giant]

Not one ounce from me.
As far as I'm concerned, it's one for the good guys for a change.

:agree:

One less ****bag in the world.

[Sir David Gray]

I’m totally for the rights of people to defend themselves but for gods sake...who’s the real victim now?

The house owner, having admittedly been through an ordeal, has been let off with all the charges and will have a pint waiting for him in every blue part of leafy, landlord dwelling England.

The burglar isn’t only pan bried, he can’t defend himself against all the accusations and his family will no doubt suffer as a result.

Distinct lack of empathy.

What does that actually mean?

What relevance does the "blue part of leafy, landlord dwelling England" have? :confused:

Surely you're not suggesting that sympathy towards the homeowner and viewing him as a victim is somehow unique to those of a privileged social background?

I would suggest that most people with any kind of moral compass will side with the homeowner and the fact that the burglar has lost his life will perhaps even increase the feeling of sympathy towards the man.

As for the burglar not being able to defend himself. What exactly is there to defend against? He was in the man's house in the early hours of the morning with the intention of robbing him.

Good riddance.

[Scouse Hibee]

I’m totally for the rights of people to defend themselves but for gods sake...who’s the real victim now?

The house owner, having admittedly been through an ordeal, has been let off with all the charges and will have a pint waiting for him in every blue part of leafy, landlord dwelling England.

The burglar isn’t only pan bried, he can’t defend himself against all the accusations and his family will no doubt suffer as a result.

Distinct lack of empathy.

I haven't got a clue what you are on about with the landlord dwelling England remark however I can tell you who the victim is now.

It's the pensioner who has to live the rest of his life knowing that he was forced to take someone's life in order to defend himself and his property from some low life ****.

[Haymaker]

Its interesting to see some of the attitudes here (which i agree with), but to contrast that to the thread on gun laws in the USA. Im sure the NRA or whoever would say guns are an important part of protecting your home and family.

Also, am i right in saying that you are allowed to shoot intruders in the USA with little or no recourse, or is that an urban myth?

Depends on your state. Here in NJ I can defend my home but not in public or a car.

[Pretty Boy]

I haven't got a clue what you are on about with the landlord dwelling England remark however I can tell you who the victim is now.

It's the pensioner who has to live the rest of his life knowing that he was forced to take someone's lie in order to defend himself and his property from some low life ****.

Re your 2nd paragraph I just hope the guy is left in peace to come to terms with that fact. Regardless of whether he was right or wrong, taking a life will have been traumatic for him. I hope, perhaps naively, the tabaloids and 'wellwishers' leave him alone.

[Pete]

What does that actually mean?

What relevance does the "blue part of leafy, landlord dwelling England" have? :confused:

Surely you're not suggesting that sympathy towards the homeowner and viewing him as a victim is somehow unique to those of a privileged social background?

I would suggest that most people with any kind of moral compass will side with the homeowner and the fact that the burglar has lost his life will perhaps even increase the feeling of sympathy towards the man.

As for the burglar not being able to defend himself. What exactly is there to defend against? He was in the man's house in the early hours of the morning with the intention of robbing him.

Good riddance.

What I meant was that it’s the right wing tabloids who are going heavy on this and no doubt their tory readership will be too. The “hang em and flog em” brigade will no doubt hail him as some sort of hero.

Admittedly, he will be suffering big time and I never actually realised what a piece of work this guy was. His “family” sounds dodgy too.

However, looking at the bigger picture, one man has lost his life and the other has been left severely traumatised at worst...I don’t know how anyone can say that the burglar wasn’t a victim when he’s dead.

I really don’t understand the outrage about the flowers and the card. Ok I’m sure the homeowner won’t like to be reminded about what happened but it’s small beer compared to what’s just went down and it’s seems like people are just being angry for the sake of it and need to get a bit of perspective.

[Pete]

To be honest the more I read about this character and his associates the less sympathy I have and I’m starting to regret that post.

I hope nothing bad happens to the old guy in the way of reprisals.

[blackpoolhibs]

Good guys 1 bad guys 0. :top marks

[RyeSloan]

To be honest the more I read about this character and his associates the less sympathy I have and I’m starting to regret that post.

I hope nothing bad happens to the old guy in the way of reprisals.

Nowt wrong in changing your mind or viewpoint after engaging in a discussion or reading a new perspective. [emoji1303]

[Pete]

Nowt wrong in changing your mind or viewpoint after engaging in a discussion or reading a new perspective. [emoji1303]

Indeed mate, just wait until I finish my economics course. 😂

I think I made the mistake of assuming that this guy had something resembling a “normal” background and believing that prejudices regarding the travelling community were influencing some reporting. The guy and his family certainly are **** who chose to go down that path and seemed to revel in it.

A lot of people are upset about the card and flowers because it shows brazenness and insensitivity but I’m wondering if there’s something more sinister and threatening in the gesture. I hope not.

[Beefster]

Indeed mate, just wait until I finish my economics course. 😂

I think I made the mistake of assuming that this guy had something resembling a “normal” background and believing that prejudices regarding the travelling community were influencing some reporting. The guy and his family certainly are **** who chose to go down that path and seemed to revel in it.

A lot of people are upset about the card and flowers because it shows brazenness and insensitivity but I’m wondering if there’s something more sinister and threatening in the gesture. I hope not.

Maybe I'm just cynical but that's how I would take it. It seems a bit like a 'we know where you live'. If I was a pensioner of almost 80, I'm not sure how safe I'd feel at home now tbh.

[lord bunberry]

Maybe I'm just cynical but that's how I would take it. It seems a bit like a 'we know where you live'. If I was a pensioner of almost 80, I'm not sure how safe I'd feel at home now tbh.
I think he’s had to move house. I read something today about his neighbors organising some fund raising thing for him.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Most of his family appear to be inside from what I've read, so they can grieve from their prison cells. They have a long history of conning and robbing old folk as they're obviously seen as easy touch. If the guy hadn't entered the house to rob the old boy he'd still be here, so no sympathy from me.



most but not all unfortunately https://www.metro.news/burglars-killer-may-never-feel-able-to-go-home/1010235/


A SHRINE to a career criminal has been created outside a home where he was stabbed to death during one of his burglaries — as the elderly couple he targeted are forced out in fear of reprisals.


One tribute, thought to have been left by the dad-of-four’s young daughter, said: ‘Strangers can say what they like about you they don’t no who you was so I don’t care. I will never be ashamed to call you my daddy.’


you really should be hen :rolleyes: good riddance to the piece of utter s*um

[G B Young]

most but not all unfortunately https://www.metro.news/burglars-killer-may-never-feel-able-to-go-home/1010235/


A SHRINE to a career criminal has been created outside a home where he was stabbed to death during one of his burglaries — as the elderly couple he targeted are forced out in fear of reprisals.


One tribute, thought to have been left by the dad-of-four’s young daughter, said: ‘Strangers can say what they like about you they don’t no who you was so I don’t care. I will never be ashamed to call you my daddy.’


you really should be hen :rolleyes: good riddance to the piece of utter s*um


The 'shrine' has now been torn down.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/moment-furious-man-destroys-shrine-to-dead-burglar-henry-vincent-who-was-stabbed-to-death-by-a3809846.html

Disgraceful that the pensioner has been forced out of his own home because of this.

[lapsedhibee]

The 'shrine' has now been torn down.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/moment-furious-man-destroys-shrine-to-dead-burglar-henry-vincent-who-was-stabbed-to-death-by-a3809846.html


Won't that report now put the owner of the fence at risk of reprisals, for giving permission?

[RyeSloan]

most but not all unfortunately https://www.metro.news/burglars-killer-may-never-feel-able-to-go-home/1010235/


A SHRINE to a career criminal has been created outside a home where he was stabbed to death during one of his burglaries — as the elderly couple he targeted are forced out in fear of reprisals.


One tribute, thought to have been left by the dad-of-four’s young daughter, said: ‘Strangers can say what they like about you they don’t no who you was so I don’t care. I will never be ashamed to call you my daddy.’


you really should be hen :rolleyes: good riddance to the piece of utter s*um


He may be ‘s*um’ to some (most?) but he was still her dad and she had no choice in that.

In the end of the day her dad has been knifed and killed so I struggle not to have some empathy for the relatives and in particular his children no matter how much of a git her dad was or how dodgy the family are.

[snooky]

He may be ‘s*um’ to some (most?) but he was still her dad and she had no choice in that.

In the end of the day her dad has been knifed and killed so I struggle not to have some empathy for the relatives and in particular his children no matter how much of a git her dad was or how dodgy the family are.

The only person that should be ashamed is the deceased. He has left at least on kid without as father because of his illegal activities - not to mention the trauma he forced on all his past & present burglary victims. Sure, I'm sorry for the wee lass however, the blame for all this rests 100% on her father's shoulders.

[G B Young]

He may be ‘s*um’ to some (most?) but he was still her dad and she had no choice in that.

In the end of the day her dad has been knifed and killed so I struggle not to have some empathy for the relatives and in particular his children no matter how much of a git her dad was or how dodgy the family are.

If he was 'knifed and killed' as an innocent victim in some random street killing then empathy would not be in short supply. However, this is a guy who thought it OK to break into the home of an elderly couple in the middle of the night and ended up dead. To then pay tribute to him by creating a 'shrine' outside the home of the couple he tried to rob (and who have since been compelled to move out for their own safety) leaves little room for any sympathy whatsoever. If the guy was a member of the travelling community then some flowers at wherever the community was camped would have been the way to show their respect.

[RyeSloan]

If he was 'knifed and killed' as an innocent victim in some random street killing then empathy would not be in short supply. However, this is a guy who thought it OK to break into the home of an elderly couple in the middle of the night and ended up dead. To then pay tribute to him by creating a 'shrine' outside the home of the couple he tried to rob (and who have since been compelled to move out for their own safety) leaves little room for any sympathy whatsoever. If the guy was a member of the travelling community then some flowers at wherever the community was camped would have been the way to show their respect.

Yeah I’m not disputing any of that really...just raising the fact the no matter how much of a low life the boy was or where the tributes have been placed someone has still lost their Dad.

I don’t have any sympathy for him and I know nothing about his family, apart but from he snippets on here, but on a human level I do feel empathy for his children having to read the press stories and seeing people call their own dad ‘s*um’ and what not, even if it is all true.

Ach it’s not a big point and I’m probably just being a wet liberal or something so I’ll leave it there [emoji23]

[Geo_1875]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43710526

A bit provocative?

[snooky]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43710526

A bit provocative?

I would say, given the circumstances, 'inappropriate' might have been a better choice of word.
That said, maybe if I lived on their street (from the comments of the locals) 'provocative' might not seem as far away as it appears up here.
Given the emotional sensitivity on both sides, common sense says any floral tribute would be better placed elsewhere.

[Pete]

Maybe I'm just cynical but that's how I would take it. It seems a bit like a 'we know where you live'. If I was a pensioner of almost 80, I'm not sure how safe I'd feel at home now tbh.

I’m wondering if we’re simply seeing how a certain culture deals with grief and it isn’t to everyone’s liking.

I’m no expert on the travelling community from which he’s from but in the main they aren’t afraid to be themselves regardless of the consequences.

The worrying thing is that some of them have the same attitude when it comes to honour, revenge and violence.

[blackpoolhibs]

20542 :greengrin

[Bristolhibby]

If he was 'knifed and killed' as an innocent victim in some random street killing then empathy would not be in short supply. However, this is a guy who thought it OK to break into the home of an elderly couple in the middle of the night and ended up dead. To then pay tribute to him by creating a 'shrine' outside the home of the couple he tried to rob (and who have since been compelled to move out for their own safety) leaves little room for any sympathy whatsoever. If the guy was a member of the travelling community then some flowers at wherever the community was camped would have been the way to show their respect.

Or just get pissed with a massive wake.