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Hibbyradge
27-03-2018, 11:33 AM
The debate on the David Beckham thread has got me thinking about the now hackneyed expression, "World Class" and how to define it.

That's not an easy task.

Ability alone isn't enough. Some players can do extraordinary things from time to time.

Marciano has made a few "world class" saves for us, but he's not even close to earning that description, and he's not even first pick for his country.

Derek Riordan could hit a dead ball, and often a moving one, so well that it was literally breathtaking, but only managed 3 caps and no goals.

Consistency and the level at which the player performs must play a part.

Players like Dr Bruyne, de Gea and Kane could walk into any team in the world and improve them.

For me, that's the most objective definition I can think of, although even that is subjective.

What's your favourite definition?

AgentDaleCooper
27-03-2018, 12:20 PM
Sir David Gray

J-C
27-03-2018, 12:24 PM
For me world class means a players who is capable of walking into any top club team without a problem, this would also apply to walking into any world class international team.

Stevie Reid
27-03-2018, 12:25 PM
The debate on the David Beckham thread has got me thinking about the now hackneyed expression, "World Class" and how to define it.

That's not an easy task.

Ability alone isn't enough. Some players can do extraordinary things from time to time.

Marciano has made a few "world class" saves for us, but he's not even close to earning that description, and he's not even first pick for his country.

Derek Riordan could hit a dead ball, and often a moving one, so well that it was literally breathtaking, but only managed 3 caps and no goals.

Consistency and the level at which the player performs must play a part.

Players like Dr Bruyne, de Gea and Kane could walk into any team in the world and improve them.

For me, that's the most objective definition I can think of, although even that is subjective.

What's your favourite definition?

Probably as good a definition as you'll get, I reckon.

JimBHibees
27-03-2018, 12:26 PM
The debate on the David Beckham thread has got me thinking about the now hackneyed expression, "World Class" and how to define it.

That's not an easy task.

Ability alone isn't enough. Some players can do extraordinary things from time to time.

Marciano has made a few "world class" saves for us, but he's not even close to earning that description, and he's not even first pick for his country.

Derek Riordan could hit a dead ball, and often a moving one, so well that it was literally breathtaking, but only managed 3 caps and no goals.

Consistency and the level at which the player performs must play a part.

Players like Dr Bruyne, de Gea and Kane could walk into any team in the world and improve them.

For me, that's the most objective definition I can think of, although even that is subjective.

What's your favourite definition?

Lets see how he does in the world cup, he was atrocious in the last Euros.

Codheed
27-03-2018, 12:37 PM
Lets see how he does in the world cup, he was atrocious in the last Euros.


Aye , too busy taking corners ! What was that all about ?

calumhibee1
27-03-2018, 12:49 PM
Aye , too busy taking corners ! What was that all about ?

I forgot about that. Mental decision.

Deansy
27-03-2018, 01:05 PM
For me world class means a players who is capable of walking into any top club team without a problem, this would also apply to walking into any world class international team.

I'd agree with that - for me 'World Class'' is Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Best, Messi etc, etc. Beckham WAS a very good player but he was never 'World Class' !

Hibbyradge
27-03-2018, 01:08 PM
Lets see how he does in the world cup, he was atrocious in the last Euros.

Ronaldo was poor at the last World Cup. He didn't exactly set the heather on fire at the last Euros either.

Messi disappointed in 2014 too.

The other Ronaldo was inexplicably poor in 1998 and was ultimately left out of the final.

I doubt anyone would use those performances to suggest they weren't world class.

Hibbyradge
27-03-2018, 01:11 PM
I'd agree with that - for me 'World Class'' is Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Best, Messi etc, etc. Beckham WAS a very good player but he was never 'World Class' !

How would you define "World class"?

Barman Stanton
27-03-2018, 01:11 PM
I also think it's someone who could walk into most teams in the world. Beckham definitely falls into that category.

In a Hibs point of view you could argue that Franck Sauzee was World Class in his prime. Key player in league and Champions League winning teams, French captain, 39 caps etc.

HUTCHYHIBBY
27-03-2018, 01:17 PM
Gary Mackays medal collection.

Spudster
27-03-2018, 01:18 PM
Top ten in the world for their position to me = world class. The downside of this is when you reach number 6 for the best centre backs in the world it doesn't really work currently!

People saying Pele, Maradona etc we are talking the greatest of all time IMO

JimBHibees
27-03-2018, 01:21 PM
Ronaldo was poor at the last World Cup. He didn't exactly set the heather on fire at the last Euros either.

Messi disappointed in 2014 too.

The other Ronaldo was inexplicably poor in 1998 and was ultimately left out of the final.

I doubt anyone would use those performances to suggest they weren't world class.

But they all have done very well in other tournaments. Personally think having a brilliant tournament either continent wise or World cup is a decent marker to be genuinely labelled as World class as it is the highest level you can get. Depends how wide you want world class to be defined personally would be 4 or 5 per year for me. For that reason not sure there are too many English players that can geuinely be described as such.

KWJ
27-03-2018, 01:23 PM
Ronaldo was poor at the last World Cup. He didn't exactly set the heather on fire at the last Euros either.

Messi disappointed in 2014 too.

The other Ronaldo was inexplicably poor in 1998 and was ultimately left out of the final.

I doubt anyone would use those performances to suggest they weren't world class.

You're a bit wrong there regarding the original Ronaldo.

He was living up to his billing and had scored 3 goals prior to the final including Brazil's only goal in the semi where he also scored a penalty. There was speculation he was ill in the run up to the final but he played the full game but was clearly not himself.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/27797881

Barman Stanton
27-03-2018, 01:25 PM
But they all have done very well in other tournaments. Personally think having a brilliant tournament either continent wise or World cup is a decent marker to be genuinely labelled as World class as it is the highest level you can get. Depends how wide you want world class to be defined personally would be 4 or 5 per year for me. For that reason not sure there are too many English players that can geuinely be described as such.

I'm curious, why only 4 or 5? We currently have Messi and Ronaldo who are up there with Pele, Maradona etc as the greatest. So other than them you think only another 2 or 3 players in the world are World Class? You could argue that the whole Germany team is world class imo.

KWJ
27-03-2018, 01:26 PM
And on the thread I suppose World Class are those that feature in Fifa's Best 11 and arguably those that are in the conversation.

JimBHibees
27-03-2018, 01:28 PM
I'm curious, why only 4 or 5? We currently have Messi and Ronaldo who are up there with Pele, Maradona etc as the greatest. So other than them you think only another 2 or 3 players in the world are World Class? You could argue that the whole Germany team is world class imo.

Your right it could be as someone else said say the best eleven of that season in the world. Just think the label world class is too widely used.

Baader
27-03-2018, 01:33 PM
You are only talking a very select few players when using World Class... Not going to put a figure on it but it's not many!

Sauzee16
27-03-2018, 01:44 PM
The only world class Scottish player I can ever remember has been Andy Goram.

Sauzee16
27-03-2018, 01:46 PM
I'm curious, why only 4 or 5? We currently have Messi and Ronaldo who are up there with Pele, Maradona etc as the greatest. So other than them you think only another 2 or 3 players in the world are World Class? You could argue that the whole Germany team is world class imo.

The German side that won the WC is different to the side now.

Hibbyradge
27-03-2018, 01:47 PM
You are only talking a very select few players when using World Class... Not going to put a figure on it but it's not many!

No, you are only talking a very select few players when using World Class... :wink:

worcesterhibby
27-03-2018, 01:47 PM
It's funny we chatted about this down the pub the other day. I ended up deciding that the only real meaning you could attribute to World Class was someone who consistently performs with excellence in their position and plays at the highest level. I think they would be able to happily play in any team in the world..but not necessarily improve it. If you take Ronaldo out of the Real Madrid team and replaced him with Gareth Bale is that an improvement..no I don't think so...but is Gareth Bale World Class..yes I think he is..or certainly has been at periods of his career.

Some periods in history there might be 50 players in the world who are truly 'World Class' at other times there might well be fewer. It's also about what their job is. Almost every team needs an enforcer type player who wins the ball and passes it to a more creative player, so we can't just pick people who are all silky skills and wonder goals.

These days you have to look at a player and when he is nearing the end of a contract if Real Madrid, Barcelona, Man Utd, PSG, Man City and maybe Bayern Munich aren't fighting over their signature, you have to ask if they are really world class.

That's not to say that every player who has ever signed for those clubs is world class ( Man City were trying to sign Johnny Evans for gods sake !)

At the end of the day it's an opinion. But if you really can't envisage a player playing for one of the big 6 or 7 clubs in the world, then they are probably not World Class.

Geo_1875
27-03-2018, 01:49 PM
You are only talking a very select few players when using World Class... Not going to put a figure on it but it's not many!

Too many players are described as world class when all they are is the best of the current crop.

Pele, Maradonna, Cruyff, were at the top for long periods of time, at a time when defenders like Baresi, Beckenbauer and Moore were at their peak. That's a measure of world class that Messi and Ronaldo can never match up to.

Sauzee16
27-03-2018, 01:53 PM
Too many players are described as world class when all they are is the best of the current crop.

Pele, Maradonna, Cruyff, were at the top for long periods of time, at a time when defenders like Baresi, Beckenbauer and Moore were at their peak. That's a measure of world class that Messi and Ronaldo can never match up to.

That’s pretty unfair.

worcesterhibby
27-03-2018, 01:53 PM
The only world class Scottish player I can ever remember has been Andy Goram.

Dalglish, Law and Souness (I know) would be up there for me, I'm not sure if I would have picked Goram, I don't really feel he played his career at a high enough level to judge.

As well as Alex Ferguson if we are including World Class Managers

Barman Stanton
27-03-2018, 02:07 PM
The German side that won the WC is different to the side now.

True. But I'm looking at the German team and struggling to see who isn't World Class. They have lost Lahm and gained Kimmich for example. Totally depends on your definition of World Class though.

Barman Stanton
27-03-2018, 02:10 PM
Too many players are described as world class when all they are is the best of the current crop.

Pele, Maradonna, Cruyff, were at the top for long periods of time, at a time when defenders like Baresi, Beckenbauer and Moore were at their peak. That's a measure of world class that Messi and Ronaldo can never match up to.

Are you saying Messi and Ronaldo are not World Class? This thread is getting even dafter. By the way I think Maradona is greatest of all time.

HUTCHYHIBBY
27-03-2018, 02:13 PM
Someone who is always overlooked in these chats is Lothar Matthaus, the guy was a genius.

calumhibee1
27-03-2018, 02:17 PM
Too many players are described as world class when all they are is the best of the current crop.

Pele, Maradonna, Cruyff, were at the top for long periods of time, at a time when defenders like Baresi, Beckenbauer and Moore were at their peak. That's a measure of world class that Messi and Ronaldo can never match up to.

Messi and Ronaldo are the two best ever. They’re also probably further infront of their peers then the likes of Pele and Maradona were also.

PeeJay
27-03-2018, 02:19 PM
Maybe "world class" is something we should look at from a global fan's point of view? How many Scottish players would be regarded as "world class" by football fans/players/experts abroad, I wonder, if any? In the past maybe although I'm doubtful, now none certainly ... by world class I would suggest players who perform outstandingly at the top level consistently, over a long period of time and who are excellent ambassadors for the game of football ...

jgl07
27-03-2018, 02:25 PM
Players like Dr Bruyne, de Gea and Kane could walk into any team in the world and improve them.


I disagree with you there.

De Gea might be able to 'walk into' most teams but not into Manchester City's team.

He is an exceptionally good shot-stopping goalkeeper but his distribution isn't a patch on that of Ederson at City. The whole team is built around having a goalkeeper who is essentially part of the midfield. Ederson can ping accurate 50 metre passes to a wide player. This is a perfect way to overcome a high press.

Likewise Kane would be great for most teams including Real Madrid but I cannot see him fitting so well into the current Barcelona team.

Obviously Jose Mourinho didn't think he could accommodate either Kevin De Bruyne or Mo Farah into his Chelsea team so they were sold. But that's another story.

Just Jimmy
27-03-2018, 02:30 PM
I disagree with you there.

De Gea might be able to 'walk into' most teams but not into Manchester City's team.

He is an exceptionally good shot-stopping goalkeeper but his distribution isn't a patch on that of Ederson at City. The whole team is built around having a goalkeeper who is essentially part of the midfield. Ederson can ping accurate 50 metre passes to a wide player. This is a perfect way to overcome a high press.

Likewise Kane would be great for most teams including Real Madrid but I cannot see him fitting so well into the current Barcelona team.

Obviously Jose Mourinho didn't think he could accommodate either Kevin De Bruyne or Mo Farah into his Chelsea team so they were sold. But that's another story.Still, it was good to see Mo making a name for himself with his pace, even if he wasn't a world class player. [emoji23]

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

hibsbollah
27-03-2018, 02:36 PM
Am I alone in thinking of it as meaning a player who would make it into a 'World XI' plus subs bench?

Beckham was the best in the world at crossing and free kicks for a period. He was far from being a 'complete' player who could do everything, but he and the likes of Ronaldinho would get into a best in the world at the time, so they are 'world class' to me. Scholes for example, was probably a better all round player than Beckham but there were better players than him in that position (Zidane, Kaka, Pirlo off the top of my head), so Scholes to me isn't world class.

But it's all semantics eh:greengrin:

Hibbyradge
27-03-2018, 02:37 PM
Still, it was good to see Mo making a name for himself with his pace, even if he wasn't a world class player. [emoji23]

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

He was never noted for blistering pace, but his stamina was exceptional! :greengrin

Monts
27-03-2018, 02:39 PM
To me it's any player that would genuinely be in contention for a world 11.

JimBHibees
27-03-2018, 02:45 PM
Messi and Ronaldo are the two best ever. They’re also probably further infront of their peers then the likes of Pele and Maradona were also.

While recognising that you also need to absolutely take into account the physicality of the game when Pele, Maradona, Best etc were playing, both Messi and Ronaldo would more than likely have struggled to play in that era.

Geo_1875
27-03-2018, 02:52 PM
Messi and Ronaldo are the two best ever. They’re also probably further infront of their peers then the likes of Pele and Maradona were also.

See below.


While recognising that you also need to absolutely take into account the physicality of the game when Pele, Maradona, Best etc were playing, both Messi and Ronaldo would more than likely have struggled to play in that era.

KerPlunk
27-03-2018, 02:53 PM
This guy is certainly up there with the best IMHO.....
https://youtu.be/wCbZL77KngY
:not worth

MWHIBBIES
27-03-2018, 02:56 PM
Top ten in the world for their position to me = world class. The downside of this is when you reach number 6 for the best centre backs in the world it doesn't really work currently!

People saying Pele, Maradona etc we are talking the greatest of all time IMOCentre back is probably the position with the most depth of world class players.

Barman Stanton
27-03-2018, 02:57 PM
Messi and Ronaldo are the two best ever. They’re also probably further infront of their peers then the likes of Pele and Maradona were also.

That's most definitely your opinion and one you see a lot from people too young to have seen Maradona etc (no idea if you are or not). Maradona the greatest for me, he turned decent teams like Argentina and Napoli into great team. Was also up against for me the greatest club team ever in Milan. I think Messi would get snapped in half in those days.

Hibbyradge
27-03-2018, 02:59 PM
While recognising that you also need to absolutely take into account the physicality of the game when Pele, Maradona, Best etc were playing, both Messi and Ronaldo would more than likely have struggled to play in that era.


See below.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8s9quRoBJgY

Hibbyradge
27-03-2018, 03:05 PM
This is in one season.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze-invbz98A

JimBHibees
27-03-2018, 03:06 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8s9quRoBJgY

Yeah but Pele, Maradona and Best were getting them every game. :greengrin

Monts
27-03-2018, 03:27 PM
This is in one season.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze-invbz98A

Those aren't even that bad in the grand scheme of things. Mcginn has had worse than that this season.

Hibbyradge
27-03-2018, 03:35 PM
Those aren't even that bad in the grand scheme of things. Mcginn has had worse than that this season.

Some of these might be more to your liking. :greengrin


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X27mTNyPqsw

WeeRussell
27-03-2018, 04:17 PM
Is world class better than Hibs class?

calumhibee1
27-03-2018, 05:27 PM
While recognising that you also need to absolutely take into account the physicality of the game when Pele, Maradona, Best etc were playing, both Messi and Ronaldo would more than likely have struggled to play in that era.

People don’t give the physicality of the game now enough credit when talking about back then. Yes, you were maybe more likely to get booted ten feet in the air with an illegal tackle but I guarantee the defenders nowadays are physically steets ahead of back then and with the power they pack more than capable of leaving one on you just as bad as back then.

Anyway, this isn’t a now vs then debate, that’s for another thread that we’ve had numerous times before!

21.05.2016
27-03-2018, 05:36 PM
For me, to be described as world class you have to play with the best and against the best regularly and regularly produce outstanding football. As the OP rightly said, players can have the ability to do outstanding things now and again (Riordan or Griffith free kicks, Rockys saves etc) but are certainly not world class players. Some of the saves Rocky has saved this season, if De Gea or Buffon had produced them the press would be raving about it for weeks. The difference is though that although Rocky can produce these moments of magic, he isn't consistently that great and his decision making can be suspect at times where as the likes of De Gea produce those saves week in week out and all round is a better player in every aspect.

jacomo
27-03-2018, 06:05 PM
For me world class means a players who is capable of walking into any top club team without a problem, this would also apply to walking into any world class international team.


:agree:

That’ll do it.

jacomo
27-03-2018, 06:06 PM
Is world class better than Hibs class?


:hilarious

Have a word. Of course not.

Pretty Boy
27-03-2018, 07:47 PM
I think world class depends on who you ask. As an example several players, former players and managers have described Sergio Busquets as 'world class', 'one of the best players I have played with' and so on. I wonder how many fans would do the same?

For me world class is excelling in the position you play and being capable of performing consistently at the top level. There is often a tendency to prize exciting attacking players over others so and I'd imagibe that would make up the bulk of most peoples lists.

Craig_HFC
27-03-2018, 07:49 PM
I think world class depends on who you ask. As an example several players, former players and managers have described Sergio Busquets as 'world class', 'one of the best players I have played with' and so on. I wonder how many fans would do the same?

For me world class is excelling in the position you play and being capable of performing consistently at the top level. There is often a tendency to prize exciting attacking players over others so and I'd imagibe that would make up the bulk of most peoples lists.

I think it’s probably fair to say that Busquets is ‘world class’ as he’s pretty much the best in the world at what he does.

Pretty Boy
27-03-2018, 07:52 PM
I think it’s probably fair to say that Busquets is ‘world class’ as he’s pretty much the best in the world at what he does.

I agree. I bet if you asked 100 football fans to name 10 'world class' players he would hardly merit a mention though.

Craig_HFC
27-03-2018, 07:54 PM
I agree. I bet if you asked 100 football fans to name 10 'world class' players he would hardly merit a mention though.

Aye, I agree with that.

Scouse Hibee
27-03-2018, 08:07 PM
Being regarded as one of the best goalkeeper/defender/midfielder/attacker of your generation with the ability to perform at the highest level.

hibsbollah
27-03-2018, 08:09 PM
Maybe "world class" is something we should look at from a global fan's point of view? How many Scottish players would be regarded as "world class" by football fans/players/experts abroad, I wonder, if any? In the past maybe although I'm doubtful, now none certainly ... by world class I would suggest players who perform outstandingly at the top level consistently, over a long period of time and who are excellent ambassadors for the game of football ...

... and looking at the French likely starting XI for this years World Cup, they are clearly all amongst the top five or so in the world in their position, as are most of the bench and quite a few that didn't make the squad !

Speedy
27-03-2018, 10:06 PM
Being good enough to play regularly for any club in the world.

Onceinawhile
27-03-2018, 10:19 PM
Top 3 in your position at any point. So 33 players can be world class at once.

HUTCHYHIBBY
27-03-2018, 11:44 PM
... and looking at the French likely starting XI for this years World Cup, they are clearly all amongst the top five or so in the world in their position, as are most of the bench and quite a few that didn't make the squad !

Clearly?

Deansy
27-03-2018, 11:57 PM
This guy is certainly up there with the best IMHO.....
https://youtu.be/wCbZL77KngY
:not worth

Thanks for that - throoughly enjoyed watching it !

JimBHibees
28-03-2018, 07:10 AM
People don’t give the physicality of the game now enough credit when talking about back then. Yes, you were maybe more likely to get booted ten feet in the air with an illegal tackle but I guarantee the defenders nowadays are physically steets ahead of back then and with the power they pack more than capable of leaving one on you just as bad as back then.

Anyway, this isn’t a now vs then debate, that’s for another thread that we’ve had numerous times before!

They will certainly be fitter but not able to get away with what went before. It was you that brought up the point about Pele and Maradona not being as far ahead of their peers so obviously you then need to take into account the game then and the game now.

My_Wife_Camille
28-03-2018, 12:04 PM
World Class for me is being able to compete regularly at the highest level (note, I said compete not participate)

I’d put Beckham, Scholes, Giggs and pretty much ever other player mentioned on this thread into the ‘world class’ bracket. Kane, Aguero, Zlatan, Lewandowski, Busquests, Iniesta etc are all world class for me.

I’d still say there’s a level above that still though, an elite few like Messi, Neymar, The Ronaldo’s, Ronaldinho, Maradona etc

Most people are probably the same but just have different words for the categories

Greentinted
28-03-2018, 05:04 PM
My idea of ‘World Class’ is any player whose inclusion in the world class category generates no dissenting voice or similar contradiction: Pele, Maradona, Zidane, Beckenbaur, Puskas, Eusebio, et-al.

blackpoolhibs
29-03-2018, 09:20 AM
There are many players who have played at the top level for a number of years who can rightly be labeled world class, and i include Beckham in that.

We have the obvious ones like Maradona Pele Ronaldo Messi and the likes.

There are other players who have put in world class performances now and then, but i wouldn't say were world class like Salah of Liverpool.

He might graduate to that status by the end of his career, but for me it's about longevity at the highest level.

There might be the odd exception here and there, but in the main its about playing at the top level and winning trophies for a good period of time.